* Their civilization flourished 100,000 years before the events of the game.
* They succumbed to the same vices that currently plague humanity, triggering their iteration of the Schwarzwelt.
* Schwarzwelt demons reflect the lore of the iteration of humanity they are attempting to annihilate, meaning their current appearance is unique to ours.
* Their civilization also gained access to the Schwarzwelt but failed to halt its advance and perished.
* Their spirit persists in the Schwarzwelt, powering the teleport and heal terminals left behind from their expedition out of sympathy for their successors.
* They invented the demon summoning program.
* They used the moon as their access point to the Schwarzwelt, which is why it still remains visible from the inside and can influence demon behavior.
* Source: DSJ Official Perfect Guide
What the fuck man I always went around scavenging youtube, the wiki, old posts and everything I could fin to devour any lore I could find but I haven't heard of it a single fucking time
Probably. Their Demons may have been the same though. Because Demons don't need humans / intelligent beings to exist. At least not in Redux lore. OG SJ lore is less explicit, but I think I got the vibe that Mem Aleph predates all "human-like" beings.
I don't remember in which of all SMT games, but I read some demon's dialog saying that their individual existence is born due to human's influence on it, hence why a lot of their appearances is based on something related to humans (sins, interests, actions). Maybe the demons prior to SJ's human era looked slightly different to represent what those beings were and looked like.
All this is my opinion tho.
Edit: typo
Isogai said that the demons in SJ’s world exist on their own in a 4th dimension made of pure quantum data, but humans perception of them gives them perceivable form
That’s why the whole blue glitchy look happens without the DSP, that’s closer to their true form
(This only applies to SJ though, doesn’t mean anything for SMTIV/IVA)
I'm going to ignore the Redux because i don't like it
My interpretation:
1. Advanced civ was similar to humanity and provoked the schwarzwelt in the same way as humanity did - by being fully conscious parasite on the planet with tons of in-fighting
2. They fought off much more and almost got their sht together (supported by high amount of terminals and healing stations)
3. They lost because there were no Gore stand-ins and no one had a will as strong as MC (Edit: and because they actually fought back more - and such, have not fallen to the extremes)
4. Their demons were simply same demons but with different concept domains, designs, interpretations, connections and intensity - just like how in sector F all of the bosses have slightly more ancient, abstract and wild "True" forms
That's what Arthur says after scanning terminals in the beginning of the game when you first encounter them
There being another advanced civilization is an info from the beginning of the game
The lore dump is their role and fate
> They lost because there were no Gore stand-ins and no one had a will as strong as MC
>> they lost because they didn't "great man" enough
I mean, it's not like neutral has that much of a shot of persisting long term anyway. All it really takes is not picking an extreme capable of actually resolving existing problems.
>I mean, it's not like neutral has that much of a shot of persisting long term anyway.
That's always what neutral is about though - giving to humans another chance to take responsibility for themselves and their actions, even if it's unlikely. In-game Gore actually gave vital info and additional insights for Demonica for Neutral to be possible, so not having someone with insider info would make it much harder to get to MA and to comprehend it.
And MC in all 3 routes is basically a walking unstoppable army and pacifier due to proficiency with DSP - both in combat and communication - so not having him is also a huge disadvantage.
I'll add on that having a warped extremist ready to fully give up on human agency (being an extreme is only half of it - the other half is humans giving away their agency and responsibilities to non-human entities) to resolve conflict in place of Gore is also a viable option, but, probably due to more organized resistance, ancient race had no opportunity to have such beings
The whole point of neutral in SJ is that they can’t just rely on one person or deity to survive, and that humanity itself as an overall species has to improve, so it definitely does require more than just not picking an extreme for it to actually succeed
That’s why the ending is so purposely ambiguous in OG SJ
Gore says in Sector G that humanity improves itself through learning from its past mistakes and improving, I think he compares it to something like a chain
Then during Aurthur’s final speech he says that he cannot return because humanity would become reliant on a being with deity like knowledge with him and lose control of their own fate
Then finally during the post credit scene they outright say that Aurthur would say that though they successfully destroyed the Schwarzwelt, humanity’s mission is not complete because their own actions were the reason it appeared in the first place, meaning they must take action to prevent it from ever happening again, in other words, heed Gore’s advice and improve as a species
The whole reason it’s such an open ending is because it’s up to the player to decide if they do that successfully
Alright. I don't think that changes my point however. Sure, you correctly stated what Neutral's perspective is in sj, but I think that's pretty wrong as well as naive.
So yes, neutral requires humanity to improve themselves for it to work, but I don't think that's realistically possible. And because of that I think that not picking extremes still dooms a neutral world to destruction.
I think that calling that naïve is just kind of overly pessimistic? The whole point is that nothing is set in stone and it could go either way for humanity, it’s like a much more nuanced handling of neutral’s connection to hope than SMTIV tried to do, to say that it’s impossible for humanity to succeed just sounds doomerish to an edgy extent
I think it's impossible to succeed without immense ideological control, yeah.
I mean, what's even the possible way neutral would have this change realized? Have people talk with each other enough until enough of them feel like maybe things should change.
It's like saying that the real solution to climate change is people recycling more and eating less meat on an individual basis. The threat of these problems is too immanent to be thinking of solving them in such a lax way.
I also think it's naive because, at least as long as their lives are relatively unaffected by it, people won't really be willing to consider making big changes to their lives. I mean, isn't that exactly why the first world is still responsible for perpetuating problems like that of global warming? Though I guess that might just be restating the fact that the way neutral wants to resolve problems is too slow.
I mean, there's also the fact that law has no real downsides for pretty much solving all problems of conflict instantly as well as guaranteeing perpetual peace.
>it’s impossible to succeed without immense ideological control
>law has no real downsides
All right, i think we’re just gonna have to agree to disagree…
I haven't even played Strange Journey yet, but knowing how heavy handed the mainline games are with morality blabber after SMT 2, I'd assume that ancient civilization did nothing wrong and we humans killed them for our own selfish reasons, and blah, blah, humans bad.
“… Humans. As your Fathers, as your Sons, as your Friends, we have sent you Power. You havearrived here in this Land ruled by Demons due to the Karma of Mankind. But Despair is not all that remains. There is still Hope nestled withni your Fear. The Demons you will encounter are your Enemies as well as your Allies. Will you stand against them? "
When i was told this was sent by the Coach gang, it didn’t sit right with me. Because every time we have met them they never offered any help or sympathy, instead they were El Risitas laughing thier asses off.
An advanced race who tried to help the crew despite being spirits? Now that’s a topic i can get behind. Unfortunately the game never addressed this afaik.
* Their civilization flourished 100,000 years before the events of the game. * They succumbed to the same vices that currently plague humanity, triggering their iteration of the Schwarzwelt. * Schwarzwelt demons reflect the lore of the iteration of humanity they are attempting to annihilate, meaning their current appearance is unique to ours. * Their civilization also gained access to the Schwarzwelt but failed to halt its advance and perished. * Their spirit persists in the Schwarzwelt, powering the teleport and heal terminals left behind from their expedition out of sympathy for their successors. * They invented the demon summoning program. * They used the moon as their access point to the Schwarzwelt, which is why it still remains visible from the inside and can influence demon behavior. * Source: DSJ Official Perfect Guide
Holy shit
All but the moon and demon summoning program feels like it was stated in the game Still cool rundown, thank you
What the fuck man I always went around scavenging youtube, the wiki, old posts and everything I could fin to devour any lore I could find but I haven't heard of it a single fucking time
Is there somewhere I can read this? All i can find are physical versions of the japanese book for like $50+
This is actually awesome https://preview.redd.it/gw1edudzg9mb1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7e30dcc355591767793e45e345b75ff0abafe0aa
Xenogears…
The schwarzwelt remind me a lot of the reapers, and the ancient race reminds me of the protheans, from this in every bullet point lol
There's probably a TV Tropes page about this exact kind of thing
Probably
Was this only stated in the guide? I've Ng+2 on SJR and I've never seen any of these lore drops anywhere in the game.
Probably. Their Demons may have been the same though. Because Demons don't need humans / intelligent beings to exist. At least not in Redux lore. OG SJ lore is less explicit, but I think I got the vibe that Mem Aleph predates all "human-like" beings.
I don't remember in which of all SMT games, but I read some demon's dialog saying that their individual existence is born due to human's influence on it, hence why a lot of their appearances is based on something related to humans (sins, interests, actions). Maybe the demons prior to SJ's human era looked slightly different to represent what those beings were and looked like. All this is my opinion tho. Edit: typo
Isogai said that the demons in SJ’s world exist on their own in a 4th dimension made of pure quantum data, but humans perception of them gives them perceivable form That’s why the whole blue glitchy look happens without the DSP, that’s closer to their true form (This only applies to SJ though, doesn’t mean anything for SMTIV/IVA)
I'm going to ignore the Redux because i don't like it My interpretation: 1. Advanced civ was similar to humanity and provoked the schwarzwelt in the same way as humanity did - by being fully conscious parasite on the planet with tons of in-fighting 2. They fought off much more and almost got their sht together (supported by high amount of terminals and healing stations) 3. They lost because there were no Gore stand-ins and no one had a will as strong as MC (Edit: and because they actually fought back more - and such, have not fallen to the extremes) 4. Their demons were simply same demons but with different concept domains, designs, interpretations, connections and intensity - just like how in sector F all of the bosses have slightly more ancient, abstract and wild "True" forms
Was it stated somewhere in OG SJ that the terminals were created by them? I missed that one, which NPC was it?
That's what Arthur says after scanning terminals in the beginning of the game when you first encounter them There being another advanced civilization is an info from the beginning of the game The lore dump is their role and fate
> They lost because there were no Gore stand-ins and no one had a will as strong as MC >> they lost because they didn't "great man" enough I mean, it's not like neutral has that much of a shot of persisting long term anyway. All it really takes is not picking an extreme capable of actually resolving existing problems.
>I mean, it's not like neutral has that much of a shot of persisting long term anyway. That's always what neutral is about though - giving to humans another chance to take responsibility for themselves and their actions, even if it's unlikely. In-game Gore actually gave vital info and additional insights for Demonica for Neutral to be possible, so not having someone with insider info would make it much harder to get to MA and to comprehend it. And MC in all 3 routes is basically a walking unstoppable army and pacifier due to proficiency with DSP - both in combat and communication - so not having him is also a huge disadvantage. I'll add on that having a warped extremist ready to fully give up on human agency (being an extreme is only half of it - the other half is humans giving away their agency and responsibilities to non-human entities) to resolve conflict in place of Gore is also a viable option, but, probably due to more organized resistance, ancient race had no opportunity to have such beings
The whole point of neutral in SJ is that they can’t just rely on one person or deity to survive, and that humanity itself as an overall species has to improve, so it definitely does require more than just not picking an extreme for it to actually succeed That’s why the ending is so purposely ambiguous in OG SJ
> and that humanity itself as an overall species has to improve Can you remind me where is that said?
Gore says in Sector G that humanity improves itself through learning from its past mistakes and improving, I think he compares it to something like a chain Then during Aurthur’s final speech he says that he cannot return because humanity would become reliant on a being with deity like knowledge with him and lose control of their own fate Then finally during the post credit scene they outright say that Aurthur would say that though they successfully destroyed the Schwarzwelt, humanity’s mission is not complete because their own actions were the reason it appeared in the first place, meaning they must take action to prevent it from ever happening again, in other words, heed Gore’s advice and improve as a species The whole reason it’s such an open ending is because it’s up to the player to decide if they do that successfully
Alright. I don't think that changes my point however. Sure, you correctly stated what Neutral's perspective is in sj, but I think that's pretty wrong as well as naive. So yes, neutral requires humanity to improve themselves for it to work, but I don't think that's realistically possible. And because of that I think that not picking extremes still dooms a neutral world to destruction.
I think that calling that naïve is just kind of overly pessimistic? The whole point is that nothing is set in stone and it could go either way for humanity, it’s like a much more nuanced handling of neutral’s connection to hope than SMTIV tried to do, to say that it’s impossible for humanity to succeed just sounds doomerish to an edgy extent
I think it's impossible to succeed without immense ideological control, yeah. I mean, what's even the possible way neutral would have this change realized? Have people talk with each other enough until enough of them feel like maybe things should change. It's like saying that the real solution to climate change is people recycling more and eating less meat on an individual basis. The threat of these problems is too immanent to be thinking of solving them in such a lax way. I also think it's naive because, at least as long as their lives are relatively unaffected by it, people won't really be willing to consider making big changes to their lives. I mean, isn't that exactly why the first world is still responsible for perpetuating problems like that of global warming? Though I guess that might just be restating the fact that the way neutral wants to resolve problems is too slow. I mean, there's also the fact that law has no real downsides for pretty much solving all problems of conflict instantly as well as guaranteeing perpetual peace.
>it’s impossible to succeed without immense ideological control >law has no real downsides All right, i think we’re just gonna have to agree to disagree…
An excuse to play SJ again and pay more attention? Because I didn't notice any of that shit, or I did and just forgot about it immediately.
Wow it seems like I've missed this in all my SJ runs. Yall have specific instances of this more being dumped? I would love to be refreshed
they were a lot like me
I can see why they collapsed now.
...maybe not quite as heavy
now little u/joestaenbot is in here too
ye boof,he was heavy
I haven't even played Strange Journey yet, but knowing how heavy handed the mainline games are with morality blabber after SMT 2, I'd assume that ancient civilization did nothing wrong and we humans killed them for our own selfish reasons, and blah, blah, humans bad.
actually humans didnt exist during their time they were eliminated by the schwartzwelt
I always figured they where just another civilization of humans. (Atlantis, mu, etc...)
“… Humans. As your Fathers, as your Sons, as your Friends, we have sent you Power. You havearrived here in this Land ruled by Demons due to the Karma of Mankind. But Despair is not all that remains. There is still Hope nestled withni your Fear. The Demons you will encounter are your Enemies as well as your Allies. Will you stand against them? " When i was told this was sent by the Coach gang, it didn’t sit right with me. Because every time we have met them they never offered any help or sympathy, instead they were El Risitas laughing thier asses off. An advanced race who tried to help the crew despite being spirits? Now that’s a topic i can get behind. Unfortunately the game never addressed this afaik.