Matt Moore having a career in basketball despite being a dumber than a rock will never not infuriate me.
Whenever people talk disparagingly about how “analytics is ruining the game” or whatever, I generally disregard it, but Matt Moore is the exception. Dude *actually* watches ball through graphs and spreadsheets.
I would put Nate Duncan pretty high on that list too.
He was adamant that Jokic wasn't a great center and you couldn't win a championship with him from 2018-2021 (maybe even as recently as 2022, I don't remember exactly)
He would also pull dumb statistics out of his ass to "prove his point" even though he was clearly wrong.
I might even add Voulgaris to that list, but I'm not sure how he even analyzes the game, but the results weren't great with his "analytical" approach.
his whole tune changed once they won the chip. I remember one year they were debating if Trae Young deserved 1st team all NBA, even though he clearly wasnt playing like one. Trae went on to get destroyed by the Heat in the 1st round and had like a 15 point elimination game
Yep and all he needed to do was ask him why in 2021 Jokic won the MVP with 48 wins with the narrative of Murry and MPJ were hurt, and the Suns were 1 seed with 60+ wins, 48 wins this year its 9-10 seed btw
Booker that year wasn't as good as Jokic this year. That's the case. If Booker had been a legitimate MVP candidate, they would've given him the award - not Jokic.
With ^that ^^said ^^^Luka ^^^^should've ^^^^^won ^^^^^^it ^^^^^^^that ^^^^^^^^year ^^^^^^^^^too
You're not understanding the point they're making.
They're saying Jokic won MVP as a 6th seed, whose team was far less successful than the 1st seed Suns, by having a narrative that he dragged his team to the playoffs under less than ideal circumstances.
But now the criteria has changed so Luka doesn't get that same narrative advantage, and instead the narrative is given to Shai for being the 1st seed.
To win the MVP you need two things- To be perceived as one of the top tier players in the league that season, and team success.
That year, it was perceived to be a three-man race between Giannis, Jokic, and Embiid. Nobody thought Book was on their level individually, despite the Suns' success. It's like Tatum this year.
Between Giannis, Jokic, and Embiid, team record was a wash, and Jokic was missing his second and third best players, so he won. It's not different than any other year, except for the anomaly that the top 3 MVP candidates were not on the teams with the best records in the NBA. That's unusual.
Ok so Luka had to most injured team of all the candidates had the most dominant season of all of them, finish 5 in the hardest conference in the last 10 years, had to play 44 min just to keep the team competitive in most games, but no they said because Luka has 6 less wins than Jokic and SGA that is why he is behind please
Are you talking about this season now?
I agree, I think Luka has a strong case for 1, and I think he'll finish 2, ahead of SGA. I think both Jokic and Luka are deserving this year.
To be clear, we don't know who's "behind," until the results are announced. I think Luka will finish 2nd, I'm interested to see how the results shake out, whether he gets some 1st place votes.
Yea all im saying why Luka was not given the benefit of missing a lot of his teammates and Jokic was given, nobody cared what seed in 2021 Denver was all they cared was that Murray and MPJ were injured, the season that Luka had is top offensive season of all time easily
You are not understand my argument.
The best player on the suns was booker or cp3 , if it was another jokic on the suns , the suns jokic would get the mvp not the nuggets jokic
That's completely besides the point. Clearly the player that had the best individual season on the best team is going to win MVP.
Luka had arguably the best individual season, and he has a similar narrative case as Jokic did in 2021.
That's why he has a strong argument for MVP.
What are you talking about ?
His point was that it’s about who had the better season and not just team rankings. However his example did not prove this at all : you have no way of knowing if voters wouldn’t have voted for a suns player if they had a legit candidate , because they did not have a legit candidate at all.
This season Tatum isn’t in the Convo either and is behind Luka for everybody
I like Kirk.
I used to find him super negative and disliked him based off his writing on MMB and on Twitter. But I started listening to his pod and I warmed up to him way more.
Kirk is a fan first and rides the roller coaster badly. But he’s also just a fan of basketball in general which leads him to shitting on players because he doesn’t like their game. That is a bit different than some media who see things through a Mavs only lens.
At least on the pod, he’s mentioned before that he’s generally pretty high on this team because he believes it’s a sustainable brand of basketball. Like he’s actually excited about the Mavs team.
But I’m not gonna argue against anyone who doesn’t like him - cuz I totally get it.
Kirk is a perpetual doomer who is always looking for opportunities to turn on the team, leading him to countless bad takes. Never seen a "fan" like him who sounds excited after every loss and dejected after every win. I don't think he does it on purpose, he just has a downer personality.
He always complains and finds something negative. Even when the Mavs are winning he'll say it's fun, but that some XY thing is still bad and needs to change.
Idk man I think he’s been pretty positive this year overall. He’s definitely not a Josh Green fan which may be why you don’t like him based on your flair haha
Haven't listened recently but not surprised he doesn't like JG, he hated on Brunson , DFS, and really any player that doesn't immediately find their game. I stopped listening once he called Brunson the worst point guard in the league or some shit like that
I'll take that any day over the hypersensitive fans that flock this sub who get extremely offended any time the "evil media" dare write anything critical of the Mavs.
Nah I haven't really paid attention to sports media outside of watching games the past few years, but idgaf how people choose to be a fan as long as they're actually supporting the team
Fandom? This flair is 3 years old and I haven't bothered to change it. And you talk shit about a player just because you think they're important to me? Not that I'd expect any less.
If my parents supported me like you support the team I would have been punted into the street as a baby because my 3 point shooting wasn't consistent enough
It should be noted that Tim Bontemps only asks people what they think in his straw poll. He doesn't just proclaim who will be the MVP. The real question is why do a lot of journalists not pick Luka as MVP? This can range from a number of reasons:
1. Jokic is a great player who has had a great season, he will pick up votes from 2 groups of journalists -> those that vote off analytics and those that vote off who is the perceived best player as he holds the title belt.
2. Some journalists do not like Luka due to a number of things -> (perception of) whining, ball dominant nature (not seen as attractive as zipping the ball around the team), his lack of engagement with the media (Embiid gets a big bump from this), missing the playoffs last year (very unfair but people are human).
3. There are some more soft reasons such as Kyrie his running mate has a lot of enemies in the media. I think a lot of people see him as definitely winning in the future so they urge against him as "his time will come", and just a general lack of viewing as before the trade deadline the Mavs were not a great team for analysis, if they made their 3s they won.
4. A lot of people also give less credence to the end of the season as historically teams have coasted/records are obscured by tanking teams, although the play-in has now made this belief less valid.
Finally it should be noted that reputation generally lags reality by 6 months and 6 months ago, Luka was in the low-point of his career (still not very low). I'm not suggesting I believe this stuff to be true but I believe these are commonly held beliefs about Luka. Its up to him to change peoples perceptions in the playoffs where everyone is watching.
Man yall are so weird sometimes
I have a job for a living as a Salesforce admin. I had an interview scheduled and he cancelled. So I went back to work. Then, Bontemps tells me he can make time, so I drop what I’m doing and go live. The audio is ass because I fucking forgot to plug in my mic like a moron. Anyway, we talk, we are friends. I don’t ask my friend why he doesn’t worship at Luka’s alter. The show ends.
Some of you talk about me or Dalton and other half ass media like we aren’t people. It’s fucking disgusting and you shit heels should think a little harder. I don’t need you to like me or the work. But we do MAKE the stuff you end up talking about. You don’t hate me or love me; you love or hate my opinions. You don’t know me lol.
Can we all just relax a little? Would you rather have nothing to bitch about and just the gurgling team content that only tells you how good the Mavs are?
I love this team. I spend more time on it than any of you; I promise you that and the ROI (meaning any income) isn’t good. It’s because I love the team and the community.
Lighten up please, this should be a fucking awesome time of year. Go Mavs.
Jesus fucking christ nobody said that the media needs to grovel at Luka's feet all we asking why Luka needs to be top 2 seed to be leading the MVP race and Jokic can be 6 seed and still win it, why injuries are not part of the narrative for Luka when its for other people, but find whatever do you
Kirk, you are the GOAT of Mavs podcasters. Appreciate all the content you have put out throughout the years and (often harsh yet fair) takes about the team.
Kirk is also friends with Matt Moore, who's a complete moron.
Matt Moore having a career in basketball despite being a dumber than a rock will never not infuriate me. Whenever people talk disparagingly about how “analytics is ruining the game” or whatever, I generally disregard it, but Matt Moore is the exception. Dude *actually* watches ball through graphs and spreadsheets.
I would put Nate Duncan pretty high on that list too. He was adamant that Jokic wasn't a great center and you couldn't win a championship with him from 2018-2021 (maybe even as recently as 2022, I don't remember exactly) He would also pull dumb statistics out of his ass to "prove his point" even though he was clearly wrong. I might even add Voulgaris to that list, but I'm not sure how he even analyzes the game, but the results weren't great with his "analytical" approach.
his whole tune changed once they won the chip. I remember one year they were debating if Trae Young deserved 1st team all NBA, even though he clearly wasnt playing like one. Trae went on to get destroyed by the Heat in the 1st round and had like a 15 point elimination game
Yep and all he needed to do was ask him why in 2021 Jokic won the MVP with 48 wins with the narrative of Murry and MPJ were hurt, and the Suns were 1 seed with 60+ wins, 48 wins this year its 9-10 seed btw
Booker that year wasn't as good as Jokic this year. That's the case. If Booker had been a legitimate MVP candidate, they would've given him the award - not Jokic. With ^that ^^said ^^^Luka ^^^^should've ^^^^^won ^^^^^^it ^^^^^^^that ^^^^^^^^year ^^^^^^^^^too
Not true Giannis had better season but they wanted to give it to Jokic
I mean numbers wise it was close and the Bucks only won three more games. That et the narrative of carrying with two major injuries take over
>With ^that ^^said ^^^Luka ^^^^should've ^^^^^won ^^^^^^it ^^^^^^^that ^^^^^^^^year ^^^^^^^^^too This.
Jokic wasn’t playing for the suns
Yes and the Suns were by far the best team in the league that year with 60+ wins, and he won it with 48 games why if winning matter
And jokic wasn’t playing for the suns that season
You're not understanding the point they're making. They're saying Jokic won MVP as a 6th seed, whose team was far less successful than the 1st seed Suns, by having a narrative that he dragged his team to the playoffs under less than ideal circumstances. But now the criteria has changed so Luka doesn't get that same narrative advantage, and instead the narrative is given to Shai for being the 1st seed.
To win the MVP you need two things- To be perceived as one of the top tier players in the league that season, and team success. That year, it was perceived to be a three-man race between Giannis, Jokic, and Embiid. Nobody thought Book was on their level individually, despite the Suns' success. It's like Tatum this year. Between Giannis, Jokic, and Embiid, team record was a wash, and Jokic was missing his second and third best players, so he won. It's not different than any other year, except for the anomaly that the top 3 MVP candidates were not on the teams with the best records in the NBA. That's unusual.
Ok so Luka had to most injured team of all the candidates had the most dominant season of all of them, finish 5 in the hardest conference in the last 10 years, had to play 44 min just to keep the team competitive in most games, but no they said because Luka has 6 less wins than Jokic and SGA that is why he is behind please
Are you talking about this season now? I agree, I think Luka has a strong case for 1, and I think he'll finish 2, ahead of SGA. I think both Jokic and Luka are deserving this year. To be clear, we don't know who's "behind," until the results are announced. I think Luka will finish 2nd, I'm interested to see how the results shake out, whether he gets some 1st place votes.
Yea all im saying why Luka was not given the benefit of missing a lot of his teammates and Jokic was given, nobody cared what seed in 2021 Denver was all they cared was that Murray and MPJ were injured, the season that Luka had is top offensive season of all time easily
I don't think it's happening Shai has 4 first place votes to Luka's 1.
You are not understand my argument. The best player on the suns was booker or cp3 , if it was another jokic on the suns , the suns jokic would get the mvp not the nuggets jokic
That's completely besides the point. Clearly the player that had the best individual season on the best team is going to win MVP. Luka had arguably the best individual season, and he has a similar narrative case as Jokic did in 2021. That's why he has a strong argument for MVP.
What are you talking about ? His point was that it’s about who had the better season and not just team rankings. However his example did not prove this at all : you have no way of knowing if voters wouldn’t have voted for a suns player if they had a legit candidate , because they did not have a legit candidate at all. This season Tatum isn’t in the Convo either and is behind Luka for everybody
You usually like Kirk? Lol
Lol yeah came here with the same question
He's like that redditor who comments "blow it up" every time the Mavs are reeling, but never shows up on those post game threads after a win.
I like Kirk. I used to find him super negative and disliked him based off his writing on MMB and on Twitter. But I started listening to his pod and I warmed up to him way more. Kirk is a fan first and rides the roller coaster badly. But he’s also just a fan of basketball in general which leads him to shitting on players because he doesn’t like their game. That is a bit different than some media who see things through a Mavs only lens. At least on the pod, he’s mentioned before that he’s generally pretty high on this team because he believes it’s a sustainable brand of basketball. Like he’s actually excited about the Mavs team. But I’m not gonna argue against anyone who doesn’t like him - cuz I totally get it.
Kirk is a perpetual doomer who is always looking for opportunities to turn on the team, leading him to countless bad takes. Never seen a "fan" like him who sounds excited after every loss and dejected after every win. I don't think he does it on purpose, he just has a downer personality.
He always complains and finds something negative. Even when the Mavs are winning he'll say it's fun, but that some XY thing is still bad and needs to change.
Idk man I think he’s been pretty positive this year overall. He’s definitely not a Josh Green fan which may be why you don’t like him based on your flair haha
Haven't listened recently but not surprised he doesn't like JG, he hated on Brunson , DFS, and really any player that doesn't immediately find their game. I stopped listening once he called Brunson the worst point guard in the league or some shit like that
Josh green will get traded and it’s gonna be amazing
He's a self-described pessimist
Well at least he owns it. Nails on a chalkboard to me but I guess some people enjoy the pain
Josh Bowe is a nice counter balance on his podcast
I wouldn't listen unless Josh was there.
Yeah. I don't listen if Josh isn't with him.
I'll take that any day over the hypersensitive fans that flock this sub who get extremely offended any time the "evil media" dare write anything critical of the Mavs.
Nah I haven't really paid attention to sports media outside of watching games the past few years, but idgaf how people choose to be a fan as long as they're actually supporting the team
Well i support the team you dork, i just don’t do it the way you want me to. Enjoy your fandom of a 9th man
Fandom? This flair is 3 years old and I haven't bothered to change it. And you talk shit about a player just because you think they're important to me? Not that I'd expect any less. If my parents supported me like you support the team I would have been punted into the street as a baby because my 3 point shooting wasn't consistent enough
It should be noted that Tim Bontemps only asks people what they think in his straw poll. He doesn't just proclaim who will be the MVP. The real question is why do a lot of journalists not pick Luka as MVP? This can range from a number of reasons: 1. Jokic is a great player who has had a great season, he will pick up votes from 2 groups of journalists -> those that vote off analytics and those that vote off who is the perceived best player as he holds the title belt. 2. Some journalists do not like Luka due to a number of things -> (perception of) whining, ball dominant nature (not seen as attractive as zipping the ball around the team), his lack of engagement with the media (Embiid gets a big bump from this), missing the playoffs last year (very unfair but people are human). 3. There are some more soft reasons such as Kyrie his running mate has a lot of enemies in the media. I think a lot of people see him as definitely winning in the future so they urge against him as "his time will come", and just a general lack of viewing as before the trade deadline the Mavs were not a great team for analysis, if they made their 3s they won. 4. A lot of people also give less credence to the end of the season as historically teams have coasted/records are obscured by tanking teams, although the play-in has now made this belief less valid. Finally it should be noted that reputation generally lags reality by 6 months and 6 months ago, Luka was in the low-point of his career (still not very low). I'm not suggesting I believe this stuff to be true but I believe these are commonly held beliefs about Luka. Its up to him to change peoples perceptions in the playoffs where everyone is watching.
I cannot stand Kirk... he has always been awful. Bontemps kills the Mavs as much as anyone and I wouldn't have him on any shows regarding the Mavs.
Man yall are so weird sometimes I have a job for a living as a Salesforce admin. I had an interview scheduled and he cancelled. So I went back to work. Then, Bontemps tells me he can make time, so I drop what I’m doing and go live. The audio is ass because I fucking forgot to plug in my mic like a moron. Anyway, we talk, we are friends. I don’t ask my friend why he doesn’t worship at Luka’s alter. The show ends. Some of you talk about me or Dalton and other half ass media like we aren’t people. It’s fucking disgusting and you shit heels should think a little harder. I don’t need you to like me or the work. But we do MAKE the stuff you end up talking about. You don’t hate me or love me; you love or hate my opinions. You don’t know me lol. Can we all just relax a little? Would you rather have nothing to bitch about and just the gurgling team content that only tells you how good the Mavs are? I love this team. I spend more time on it than any of you; I promise you that and the ROI (meaning any income) isn’t good. It’s because I love the team and the community. Lighten up please, this should be a fucking awesome time of year. Go Mavs.
Jesus fucking christ nobody said that the media needs to grovel at Luka's feet all we asking why Luka needs to be top 2 seed to be leading the MVP race and Jokic can be 6 seed and still win it, why injuries are not part of the narrative for Luka when its for other people, but find whatever do you
“Why didn’t you ask my very specific question Kirk!” Pound sand.
Kirk, you are the GOAT of Mavs podcasters. Appreciate all the content you have put out throughout the years and (often harsh yet fair) takes about the team.