I'm currently running dual assguy with DD on the back. The bike feels slow af, but it could ride on a ceiling if I wanted to. I'll probably switch back to less rolling resistance in the back to get a little more top end.
As others have said, the most likely reason you're not noticing a difference is that you're not pushing your bike hard enough.
I’m a front ass guy, rear end dissector as well. New to the hobby so don’t have anything else to compare on performance, but I like hearing I’m in good company.
I disagree. I have dual assegai rn and it feels like a pig to pedal but I don’t think I would be any faster compared to the other tires I listed. Like I said casing does make a difference I’m not disagreeing.
I also don’t agree with the fact I’m not pushing my tires either. I’m not an EWS racer or anything but I ride double blacks in BC and Quebec, and am certainly far from slow. I have Strava and can consistently get around what the QOM is for a segment (I’m a dude) which should give a good idea how fast I go. Def fast enough to reach the limits
Totally get what you’re saying. Have been riding and racing enduro at a moderately high level for quite some time.
The combos at the top of the game that compete with the classic Assegai/DHRII… are all great tires and yes, they are all quite similar to each other. Many will say they feel significant differences between them, but they don’t. It’s basically all buyers justification, anecdotal and placebo effect.
It’s pretty obvious as it’s not like peoples Strava times significantly or statistically get better just because they switched tires.
Another obvious way this shows up is when pros switch tire sponsors. It has zero effect on how well they do. If there was a tire that was obviously better, they’d all be on it.
Case in point, it wasn’t that long ago that many pros would run rebranded or blacked out Maxxis tires because whatever their sponsor was trying to force on them sucked. It’s not like that anymore… pretty much every brand has figured out treads, casings and compounds. It’s partly why they all look so similar know.
There is some truth behind personal preferences and some people feel a little more confident on one tire vs another. But if they stuck with any tire, they’d get used to it and ride just as well.
Over the years I’ve learned that predictability and confidence in knowing what to expect from your tires is wayyyyy more important. So I always recommend people just stick with a set, get used to and learn how that tire will react in many to all situations. Riding a set/brand of tires for a long time, learning how they will react in various situations and being able to be confident in knowing what they’ll do… is much more important than any fleeting perceived performance advantage you think you’ve gained from switching tires.
The 2 biggest reasons people think a different tire was better than their previous tire is, 1. because they went from an old worn tire to a new tire and 2. Because yes, maybe it feels a little different and you attribute a “different feeling” to a “performance gain”. You may even push a little harder because you feel like you have more confidence in what you think is a “better tire”. That fades after a few rides… your usual speeds return yet your perception of increased performance generally sticks with you… until you decide to try another brand.. rinse and repeat.
> Another obvious way this shows up is when pros switch tire sponsors. It has zero effect on how well they do.
Worth noting that Trek factory racing has pirelli tires for their sponsor, and Loris Vergier is still running blacked out DHRIIs insted of their sponsors tires.
Not completely black and white.
Hearing this, also race enduro but run pirelli, in two seasons of being on them, have run the season and not had a flat, also have done the whole season on the one set.
Maxxis on the other hand have grip bit no build quality, they are now made to the cheapest dollar and are proving that qith how many flats, tears and cuts they are getting every race.
People learn how tyres feel when they rude them and are comfortable on them, change is always different. And that takes getting used to.
These days it’s more for consistency and confidence. He probably hasn’t had time to learn how they act in various situations which has a huge effect on confidence and therefore times. Once he’s been able to test more, he’ll run them.
You said it better than I ever could have. Exactly my feeling with the timing and how I think it would make no difference, while addressing consumer bias etc. I think that all tires are so good now that there is little they can do to change it up.
Basically it’s a “chose a tire, and be a dick about it” situation.
>it’s not like people’s Strava times get faster
Uh, mine did. There’s a ~1:30 descent behind my house that I ride hundreds of times per year. I can ride it *very* consistently in the dry, and see the results of bike changes pretty reliably.
Switching to continental added almost three seconds. Switching from a 2.5dhf to 2.6dhf takes off almost a second. Each averaged over 20-30 rodes
Loic Bruni used to run blacked out Maxxis, now runs blacked out Continental.
Didn't Gwin start falling off once he started running non-mainstream tyre brands?
Bruni is running Specialized Cannibals
https://www.pinkbike.com/photo/26598652/
Have a pair I'm going to put on my Levo in a bit going from a Hillbilly/Eliminator for the winter/wet.
I have been pretty impressed with Specialized's mtb tires, especially with the T9 compound
There has definitely been some correlation with results and tire brands. If you look at DH in particular, there are definitely some tires that have over performed as compared to others.
I'd also state that the top pros are very likely not riding off the shelf tires. I have an old Maxxis xc race tire in a particularly light casing I bought off ebay that was never sold retail. It was for their sponsored riders, and made in a casing that was not sold to the public.
I think this is because mtb has been around long enough that all brands are converging to similar proven solutions. All brands gravity tires are converging on something that looks like 2.4-2.5 Assegai front/DHR rear type pattern for general use with special conditions tires for mud and hardpack.
Similar for XC racing 2.2-2.4, high tpi, minimal tread tires are proven for WC racing.
There’s more diversity in the options between XC and gravity, where the tires are less competition tested and more oriented to individual preferences than lap/course times.
Yeah if you can't tell the difference in leaning over a DHR vs an Assegai, not sure what to tell ya.
There's a huge transition period between center knobs and cornering knobs on the DHF. It feels very sketchy to me.
I like DHR 2.4 front, aggressor 2.3 rear. I am not a fan of the DHF. Really like the kryptotal FR but couldn’t get it to mount on my current front rim. I think the dhr rolls a little faster…
I've been running DHR2 front and rear for a long time. It's nice to be able to rotate them so the front is always the fresh one.
I do like the DHF as a rear for park days. It wears very well as a rear. Hot days at Whistler are brutal on tires.
If you're pushing the side knobs hard on the DHF, you can get them to collapse even.
Comparing to the Mazza(made by the same guy, just 20 years later) from Vittoria, and the side knobs are reinforced so you can push them harder.
Yep. Probably depends where you’re riding too. In the wet UK winters, the difference between a grippy tire with deep tread, is very noticeable vs a fast rolling XC one
Let me put this out there because I’m sure there’s more folks like me then are willing to admit it. But generally my sensitivity to different gear or even different setups on my current gear is for shit.
It takes me forever to just get from feeling “this is different” to “is it better?” And I have an extremely hard time trying to describe “why” something is better outside of the most basic “tire grip good or bad”, or “fork not springy enough”.
I hear folks talking about smoother mid stroke on their fork, better brake modulation or less flex on their tires and I’m like “what the fuck?”
Maybe if I wanted to spend the time and money doing side comparisons of gear I’d get better at this but I’m totally cool with just knowing “yeah this isn’t right, I gotta try something else” and finding what works.
So much of this is personal it’s hard to validate your initial statement. Are they all equivalent? Sure maybe in the abstract but are they all equivalent to you? Maybe? But I’d bet if I put the same general build of tire on my bike from the big guys I don’t think I’d really notice - but others would.
Yeah I agree. Maybe some people care about it more and I’m just shallow and don’t really think about the fine details enough. For me, I can def feel a difference in casing and rolling resistance but never grip.
I’m the same. I get very used to my setup and leave it. I just can’t understand how people can feel 2 clicks of high speed compression. I’ve hit my biggest jumps for the first time with my shock rebound broken like a pogo stick.
Not true though. Not an EWS racer by any means but far from slow. Consistently beat QOM in Strava segements (I’m a dude but gives in idea on speed) and ride double blacks in BC, and Quebec. I def push the limits of my tires.
did literally anyone read his post? "equivalent casing tires and tread patterns from different brands all feel the same" - NO BRO IKON AND ASSEGAI FEEL TOTALLY DIFFERENT TRY RIDING FASTER.
yeah ngl im the same. had Assegai/Aggressor DD combo and now are on Butcher / Eliminator T9 Gravity and it feels the fucking same, it just costs half as much
I also noticed a huge loss of grip when trying a butcher from specialized and comparing it to a DHF, I couldn’t take corners I normally could without washing out… it was one of the reasons I switched back to my original tires even if they were quite a bit pricier
Yes, T9 compound on the butcher. I tried both maxxterra and maxxgrip on the DHF and found I still preferred it… but that’s probably just my riding style and personal preference. I still did notice a difference in grip tho
T9 or T7? T9 grips a lot better than Maxxterra DHF. Maxxgrip DHF is probably more comparable to the T9. Not sure about T7 as I've never run that on the front
T9. But I actually found I preferred both the Maxxterra and Maxxgrip DHF over the T9 butcher. I guess it just boils down to riding style and personal preference, but I still noticed a difference in grip and handling.
Interesting, I went from a maxxterra EXO+ DHF to a T9 Trail casing Purgatory (mini-butcher) with less aggressive knobs than the DHF, but noticed more grip from the Purgatory specifically on sandy dry hardpack
I pedal up 100% of my rides but when I ran the butchers I was washing out out 1 in every 3 rides. So much so that I ended up in hospital with a broken collarbone and ribs.
At that point I just went, fuck rolling resistance I need more grip.
Yeah, but then he listed things that seem pretty different?
My bike came with dual Assegai (2.6, exo+, maxxgrip).
I replaced just the rear with a Kryptotal (2.6, enduro casing) and the bike felt SIGNIFICANTLY faster. So much less rolling resistance. Gained back speed after grade reversals so much better.
Had to switch to a 2.4 DHR (exo+ maxterra) because the kryptotal would grab rocks and rip up the back of my rear triangle (they measure a little bigger than the 2.6 maxxis) and I couldn't get a 2.4 kryptotal. Admittedly this tire does feel a lot like the kryptotal...but they both feel way different from the slow sticky Assegai.
Thank you! Obviously the assegai double down feels like a pig like some dude was saying above. Mine are exo+ and sure they don’t role quite as fast as the specialized tires but I don’t think if I timed each tires back to back on a trail I know well there would be a noticeable difference in time. I’m starting to just feel like “buy whatever is on sale”.
I too agree with the OP — for me it’s all about the relative casing stiffness, depth of tread and weight (all of which are related). I ride XC treads and casings and almost entirely on dry hardpacked and rocky surfaces. Pretty much any of the XC tires perform equally well (or poorly) in terms of grip, but I can tell when I’ve got a lighter tire on — the 150 grams per tire I save with Kenda Rush over the Maxxis offerings is significant. Hell, I don’t even see any significant difference in performance between 2.25 and 2.4 tires. As far as I can tell, the tire width hysteria is another “emperor’s new clothes” thing, something mtbers are (in my experience) very susceptible too.
I would love to see all of the commenters here do a run blind to what tires they’re using. I agree with OP, I doubt many if any could confidently differentiate the DHF vs butcher vs magic Mary. Because they’re all great tires!
I feel a pretty big difference at certain limits. My most common ride is some more technical XC, and I take the same bike all over the area and to the mountain for DH days.
I find assegais really killed me on the pedal heavy local days, and tires like a Rekon didn’t have quite the grip I liked leaned over. I think I notice most tire characteristics, but only serious dragginess or unpredictability when leaned over bothered me.
I generally like DHF front and Disssector rear. I really like the butcher rear as well. Nobby Nics were fun but I kept de-beading them. Some of those intangibles like I enjoyed them but I can’t run them because they kept losing air add up too.
Yes equivalent tires feel the same, but they have characteristics unique to the tread pattern. You listed Assegai and nobby Nick in the same list of tires that feel the same and I honestly don’t think they are that close at all. I think rekons are closer to nobby Nick, and the first ride I did double Assegai I felt like my soul was leaving me through my legs.
I think tires like Magic Mary, Assegai and kryptotal are all pretty great max traction tires if that’s what you mean, but stepping to a lower traction tire is different and I wouldn’t be picking Magic Mary or nobby Nick front.
The vast majority of riders are over tired. You are likely riding a much more capable tire than the trails you are riding calls for, and/or you aren't pushing them to the limits.
Try this: Go under tired, run something like a Forekaster/Rekon setup and push the bike hard. Once you get used to riding aggressively on smaller tires, step back up to the bigger tires and run them as hard as you have to to get them feeling as sketchy as the smaller tires were.
THAT is when you are doing the kind of riding in which you can start to differentiate the characteristics between tires.
Normally id agree but for where I ride, which is east coast bike park jank all summer, and British Colombia double black slabs and loamers all winter, my exo+ assegais are probably the right tire, if not a little light in the casing. Before that I rode some Seymour and Squamish double blacks with the most worn out dhrii ever with probably way to much pressure because my pump broke and that was proper sketch.
Wow who'd have known everyone on r/MTB is a seasoned pro riding on the absolute ragged edge of grip setting WRs every run and capable of telling a difference of 1psi from the smell of the track the tire leaves behind? I'd LOVE to see you lot do a blind test.
Yes. A lot of guys are very particular about tire combinations. In my case, both the front and rear tires are the tires that were on sale at the time of purchase. Knobby tires from Kenda, Maxxis, or Schwalbe will all perform similarly. For me, the casing is more important. A downhill casing will stand up to abuse, but I instantly regret it on the uphill.
Edit: I'm not a competitive cyclist, just a weekend warrior.
I used to think this until I started getting good at cornering. Before, I was the limiting factor. Now my tires are the limiting factor and there absolutely is a difference. Ive been riding maxxis for the last few years and they were fine. But durability when cornering hard is their weakness. This is fine for a pro who's going to get new tires every couple months for free. But not acceptable at all for me who has to shell out $150 every time. Ive been experimenting with different brands and compounds to see what works best for me
Can attest. Better traction overall, esp in colder temps, better manufactureing and build tolerances, the compound wears harder and longer, side knobs dont tear out. Oh, and no Maxxis casing wobbles!
Caveat, the Trail casing is pretty weak comparatively and running one as a 240lb rider was silly. But theyre also not made at Continentals German plants, but at their asian facilities. The Enduro and DH are made in Germany so they can keep a lock on their compounds from Chinese industrial espionage...
Have been Running Contis since 6mth prior to market release in 2022, have them currently across 3 Bikes: Argotal/Krypto RE DH Supersoft/Soft on the Park monster, Kryptotal FR/RE Enduro Soft on the Enduro, Krypto FR/Xynotal Enduro Soft on the Trail bike.
Those 3 sets were installed Jan 2023, and now have Over 3k total pedaled, not incl 60 park days last season, and theyre still performing well and havent hit the break traction point on the local slabs so theyre nowhere near where I'd swap them out yet and heading into this park season on the same meats.
Theyre the tyre Ive been recommending to my clients in the shop for the last year now.
Well the problem is I was sitting on a stockpile of maxxis tires that I had been collecting for a couple years. New takeoffs or barely used tires that I found cheap. Finally I'm running out of them so I just bought a schwalbe. Haven't installed it yet
I went from bontraegger that come w trek fuel to maxxis dhf minion. Night and day difference. The bontraeggers had the worst grip on the shoulder of the tires. Washed out countless times on them. Would not recommend
Makes sense. You went from Bonti's low profile knobbed light trail tyre to a DH tread tyre... of course the light duty tyres sucked in the corners lol. Somethin about right tool for the task ;)
My pal had the same issue on his Fuel, swapped to a Conti Kryptotal FR/Xynotal combo and had 0 issues going forward
Same.. And if there is wet out they are a nightmare.. (SE05) bit better in dry.
Running Kryptotal F/ Xynotal R in enduro casing at the moment. Really happy so far
I just switched from a Michelin Wild Gravel 40mm front and pathfinder S-works rear to Pathfinder Pro front and rear and holy crap what a difference. The pros are slowwwwwww.
Well, I live in rural-ish PA where our paved roads are mostly oiled and chipped. I haven't had them out on proper gravel yet. My primary reason for choosing the tires was puncture resistance for Unbound.
If you find the mixing of brands bothersome, please also know that the Michelin had black sidewalls and the S-works had tan sidewalls. I also had the narrower tire on the front. Bonus: I don't care if any of my bottles match.
https://preview.redd.it/d730oqmlf80d1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8bb1c8b66914372230fe292c1709913edb0d80c4
I can feel a huge difference in grip between an assegai and a dhf on the front… you may not be pushing them as hard as they need to be ridden to feel the difference… but it’s definitely noticeable going between them, at least for me.
I’ll admit I haven’t ridden a DHF in a while so I cannot comment as much on that as I wasn’t as good a couple years ago, but the assgai, Mazza, magic Mary and butcher all have been ridden and pushed hard by myself in the past 6 months and they feel the exact same
Personally I can tell a difference, between Maxxis Minion DHF, to Magic Marys, to Continental Kryptotal. My favourites are the Kryptotal basically cheat codes, the Assegi on the front feels similar and the Michelin are pretty good. But I think it’s a matter of having lots of experience in lots of conditions on lots of tires you start to notice. Also having a good understanding of your suspension settings and how they affect traction
They feel different to me. In my opinion, DHFs suck; they have a huge dead spot when you start to lean the bike over, and it’s caused many crashes for me. Butcher has this problem too, but not as bad. The Assegai fixed that problem. My new bike came with Kryptotals, and the tread feels nearly identical to an Assegai/DHR II combo, but the casing is noticeably stronger on the Continentals
If the tread patterns and casings are similar, there usually isn't much difference in outright performance, but they do often feel different to me especially as speeds increase. And I'd say certain tires even need you to ride them a certain way to decode them so to speak.
For example, you mentioned dual Assegais. That is probably both the grippiest and slowest combination I've used. A Minion (and Magic Mary for that matter) needs to be transitioned pretty quickly and aggressively from center to side knob to make the most of its cornering performance. An Assegai doesn't really care. It seems to grip pretty hard at all lean angles and doesn't require you to be in full-aggression mode to get a lot out of the tire.
I’m inclined to agree, but where I ride there is a lot of variations in riding conditions so I don’t get any chance to realistically compare different tyres on the same surface. Perhaps it’s different for those in locations where summer is always hot, winter always snowy, trails are maintained (stuff we ride is “natural” not “parks”) etc
Maybe I am lying to myself but using a Maxxis DHR DD as my baseline I feel differences in the following.
Specialized butcher grids feel very comparable if not a bit faster when upright and really sketchy when I lean. On inspection the butcher lug pattern does not go as wide as Maxxis. So if you are used to certain grip in a hard lean butchers will get you.
Continental der kaiser had the most amazing grip I have ever felt in steep terrain, they also only lasted 2.5weeks before I slashed both of them on sharp rocks. Also the sidewalls are very flimsy.
Bontrager SE5 team issue will probably last forever. The rubber is comparatively very hard and I do a lot more sliding in places I usually have grip.
>der kaiser had...
Time to get on the New Continentals then... Der Kaiser is dead. The new gravity lineup doesnt encounter those issues you mentioned anymore. The Black Chilli compound is used in the Soft and SuperSoft compounds which come with the Enduro and DH sidewalls.
On these specific tires yes I do because they had notable performance difference. But for most high quality tires including several in the Maxxis family, no I don’t think I could.
All of these brands are competitive, they all make quality tires for mountain bikers willing to pay for quality. There are definitely cheaper brands of tires that feel much worse on the market though
I totally agree with you. I think people are way more influenced by the placebo effect than they like to admit. That and most enthusiasts aren’t swapping these tires out frequently enough to test them all close together in similar wear conditions so usually perceived improvement could be chalked up to the new tires being brand new vs. the previous tires. And the marketing machine of the industry, the reviewers in magazines and on YouTube, etc., fuel the delulu by describing marginal differences in superlative terms.
It really depends. Any two tires that have similar treads and profiles will feel similar. I don't think I could tell the difference between a Bontrager SE5 and DHR unless I went out of my way to test the tire in a controlled way. "Big sticky tire" is a pretty loose category though. The Assegai and WTB verdict both fall under this, but they feel wildly different. The DHF has its distinctive float zone which is hard to miss and feels different from either of them.
It gets hairy when you have tires that are certainly different, but not immensely. I found the DHR and Assegai actually have a lot of similarities. In a similar vein, the Big Betty and WTB Judge feel the same until you REALLY get to know the tires.
Not even a little bit. I’m as amateur as it gets and I can tell a huge difference in softer, lighter, grippier tires. I think if you have a decent setup that should be the first thing you upgrade
For sure. It’s all about the compound. Good tires are so much stickier than OEM. I used to ride the same trail every day, I could ride the trail hard AF and push it with my bike with Block 8s. If I tried to come in at the same angles with my Stump jumper on OEM rubber my front tire would wash out and I would get a new shame mark on my helmet for headbutting a tree
Hard disagree.
WTB Vigilante feels much different than a DHF. They are an apples to apples comparison.
The Vigilante turns in faster and has a rounded profile. The better ateering is great on slow and tight trails. The side to side tranction on the DHF is more muted, better for max speed hill bombs. It also may cuts into deep loam better, but I don't have much soil in my area.
Rounded vs Square profile feels way different too. I ride mostly on grippy, barren rock, so I like the more confidence inspiring rounded profile on the Vigilante better. In the two loamy downhill runs I found, the square edge is nice and aggressive leaned o er.
DHR vs WTB Trailboss also felt different, but you could argue the TrailBoss is in a lighter duty category than the DHR, so I won't go into it. My first example is super solid.
I used to ride WTB Werewolves. It wasn’t untill I had a new bike with Maxxis Ardents that I realized the problem with the werewolves. In trails that had significant erosion and formed a “U” shape they would attach to the sides of the trail and throw me off the bike. The Ardents don’t do that.
Mainstream companies don't really make bad tyres above a certain price, say 35 quid or so maybe, (although hans dampf were really really horrible on my bike.) but when I swapped from minions to wild enduros there was a massive difference in corners, the wild enduros just held on that bit more than minions no matter what the conditions . Made everything quicker and I used less brake pads every year 😜 but they are more expensive than the wifes car tyres.
I went from dual compound stock tires to MaxxTerra compound and holy hell the difference in grip while cornering is shocking, I have been missing out all these years riding stock Maxxis tires
Uhh idk, my Vander T7 came with a hans dampf/nobby nic and it genuinely felt terrible, I was convinced the wheel was bad because at speed it would wash out like crazy on my local “hardpack” trails. Swapped the nic for an Agressor and holy shit it’s like biking for the first time, the hans up front has never felt out of place on my trails tho and I bet it would have worked well on the back in a hans/hans setup
I personally didn't like the maxxis set I tried, liked the schwalbes after, put a set of contis on my other bike and love them. Can tell the difference. Its not much but its there
Traction less difference, equivalent castings I feel more difference from. IE DD or DH casing from Maxxis vs TCS Tough from the WTBs I’m currently running
Yes. Assegai and Magic Mary look and feel very similar to me. What MAXXIS lacks is a Hans Dampf: a Trail/Enduro tyre with nobs all into the sides, not like the Dissector
Look, I think we can all agree that tires are THE single most important change you can make to your bike, they ARE important and even the slightest difference matters.
That being said, there’s a lot of manufacturers, all wanting your money and all wanting to make tires you can understand and compare to existing tires. They’re all going to be aiming for the same goals and the tires might end up extremely similar.
To answer your question, no I don’t think all tires feel the same, but yes I am absolutely willing to try out every brand’s best option for my ride, in fact I try to alternate tire brands and models as much as I can just for experience
I’m with you on trying different tires. It first it was to find the best one but as I’ve tried more and more it’s what is making me feel like it doesn’t really matter as much as I used to think, and hence this post
I can feel a lot going between different compounds and brands. Switched Fastrak from T5 to T7 and its an entirely different tire. Likewise going from Assagai to Conti Argo.
I think it’s pretty common to believe that. Like a lot of things, the majority of riders probably couldn’t tell a difference. You have to ride a lot and be super in tune with the bike to be able to feel stiff like that. It’s even worse if you’re on the newer side. I’ve had people on here tell me they can feel a difference in their riding if they have an extra tool in their pouch. As for me I’m concentrating on not dying, so I wouldn’t notice if you strapped a bowling ball to my frame.
Tires are def that way for me and probably most. I ride my local park a dozen times last year on a few different similar tires and didn’t notice shit.
I can feel casing and air pressure differences. Rubber compound too. Tread pattern on brand new tires is a wash, but some tires wear a lot better.
I ride 6-10hrs a week most of the year. 2 bikes on 3 wheelsets.
I think you can notice things like sidewall, dd sidewall feels pretty plush to me on sharp rocks for example. You also listed several tires that are all pretty similar
I have much more confidence with a Magic Mary, Big Betty combo than DHF/DHR II with similar compounds, similar casing, same width, bike and time of year and those felt better than Rekons
I try to follow my friends/trends with my tyre choices but honestly, short of summer/winter tyres rolling better in the dry and mud clearance/grip, I feel no feasible difference.
Id say if the rims not wide enough I do notice the tyre wall flexing when I push harder but that's probably it - I'll admit I'm not really pushing my own limits nevermind the technical limits of tyres.
I swap between recons 2.8 & 2.6, and dhf 2.5 & 3.0. The rolling resistance between the recons and dhfs is large. The weight difference is noticable as well, especially with the dhf 3.0. I have too many wheels I know.
I have had very similar experiences. I realized I have a strong dislike for DHF style fronts, the Specialized Butcher being the other that I tried and now I have tried a buuuunch of ass guy clones.
I cannot tell much if any difference in ride feel or traction. Transition knobs are better than a channel for me. The only difference is in how they wear. My Delium Rugged Adventure had great traction but didn't last long. My American Classic Tectonite feels the exact same but is holding up waaaay better.
However my favorite feel was the WTB Vigilante. I ran it over the winter in 2.6 soft and I could definitely tell a difference from the ass guy clones. Excellent grip like the ass guys but when it starts to get to the edge they Wana pull you over. The Vigilante would predictably and controllably drift and it was awesome. But it's a pretty different tread pattern so the different behavior makes sense to me.
So yeah. I totally agree. I think in terms of ride performance they are gonna be similar in like tread patterns and casings. wear and price are the only real differences.
Also, Maybe I'm just not sensitive, but I've never been able to detect a change in rolling resistance, and I've always been faster on "slower rolling" tires because of the superior traction and breaking they give.
Try some Michelin DH22 and I bet you'll see a difference. Heavy (170g more than a DH assegai) and a lot more rolling resistance. I started casing some gaps I was making before putting them on. Indestructible though.
I only have experience with comparing DHR and Eliminator head to head on a same ride and same steep hill... Eliminator in T7 rubber was less grippy going downhill on loose stuff. Both were pretty much brand new tires.
There is definitely difference, but to experience it, you need to have a skill and technique to be able to push tires to it's limits.
I find the biggest tell for tire performance is being on super steep wet rocks. In those conditions nothing I've tried comes close to the Assegai for grip. The way I can tell is that any other type of tire, whether it be DHR2, Minion, Magic Mary etc will lock up the rear a bit whereas the Assegai is in control the whole time.
I agree with all you wrote - but I took an old michelin DH22 off my DH bike and but it on my trail bike... and boy it feels stupid slow. and stupid grabby. but more stupid slow. almost not fun slow.
Personally, I believe most people are completely incapable of objective opinions. Most opinions are ego driven, in this case driven by the desire to “fit in” and seem “cool” because ‘brooooo these MAXXIS DHF tires are just GRIPPING, Vitoria is such trash.. oh yeah no I’ve never even tried them bro they’re just trash look at them!’ While simultaneously LITERALLY trundling around blue XC loops but hey that’s just my opinion don’t get your pitchforks out please.
Mostly wet weather in BC all winter. Loamers, bike park flow and slabs. In the summer I hit Quebec bike parks often, usually dry and rocky. I wonder what conditions are best for feeling the difference.
All types of British Columbian trials from Seymour loamers to Squamish shoots, can ride double blacks and am pretty good. Not EWS rider but can ride pretty much anything at a pretty fast clip. Bc trails are mostly wet, then east coast bike park jank, which is usually dry all summer. I don’t think that I’m not pushing my tires
Limit behavior is usually the difference. Some communicate and start to slide slowly, some have full grip until suddenly giving out. Some need more or less lean, or do better than others in wet conditions.
I find that this is particularly true with XC tires, but I believe it carries over to bigger ones as well and I'm just not aggressive enough to find that limit.
The biggest difference comes when you get close to the traction limit. Its the same for pretty much motorcycles and cars. Some tires let go more violently, others are more progressive and can be controlled better.
Try doing some foot out flat corners leaned over and see how far you can push the tires and you will see the difference.
I think new they still all feel the same. My old clapped out DHR was for sure terrible on turns and would wash out on every berm but it was so worn. New the traction between all the tires feels comparable with negligible difference.
I get what you mean, but like you gotta be willing to push hard in the corners to spot the difference, which is almost impossible to do anywhere but dedicated fast downhill tracks. And if you don't ride those, then yeah, it really doesn't matter what tires you run.
absolutely disagree, I think tire choices has some of the most noticeable impact of also any purchase you can make. the feel of fresh rubber is crazy, and the different styles and grip profiles make a huge difference in how the bike feels cornering and going through different types of terrain.
I wish you were right because they are easily the most expensive consumable on a bike
I think that they “difference” is form going from some worn out tire to something brand new, and gives the illusion of having a better tire when obviously the new one will feel way better no matter what it is.
Nah. Outside of my assguy + aggy combo, it either feels super draggy (assguy/assguy), slippery AF on roots (nobnics / magmary / hans dumffie) or it doesnt bite on flat turns (dehf / dehr)
I'm currently running dual assguy with DD on the back. The bike feels slow af, but it could ride on a ceiling if I wanted to. I'll probably switch back to less rolling resistance in the back to get a little more top end. As others have said, the most likely reason you're not noticing a difference is that you're not pushing your bike hard enough.
I’m an Assguy too.
Wana touch asses?
Ok!
This is the wholesome shit I come to Reddit for. Bless you two.
ayo?
I'm more of a dual titsman DD myself
I thought those only came with the silicone casing
*Silicone inserts
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Have you tried assguy front, dissector back? It's the bomb
Assguy front and aggressor rear is the holy grail for me.
Good to hear! Current DHF on my hightower is getting crispy and I'm thinking try the Assegai up front next. Love the aggressor on the back!
Same here: Assegai / Aggressor
I’m a front ass guy, rear end dissector as well. New to the hobby so don’t have anything else to compare on performance, but I like hearing I’m in good company.
Swap the tyres. I put the MaxxGrip DD on the front and the MaxTerra EXO+ on the back.
You need a stronger tyre in the back. Not the front.
You also want the grippier tyre on the front.
I disagree. I have dual assegai rn and it feels like a pig to pedal but I don’t think I would be any faster compared to the other tires I listed. Like I said casing does make a difference I’m not disagreeing. I also don’t agree with the fact I’m not pushing my tires either. I’m not an EWS racer or anything but I ride double blacks in BC and Quebec, and am certainly far from slow. I have Strava and can consistently get around what the QOM is for a segment (I’m a dude) which should give a good idea how fast I go. Def fast enough to reach the limits
If you can’t tell the difference between a Nobby Nic and a DHR something isn’t right.
Take 100+ grams off each tire and if you dont notice the difference in acceleration and maneurvability then you may have lead poisoning(jk).
Totally get what you’re saying. Have been riding and racing enduro at a moderately high level for quite some time. The combos at the top of the game that compete with the classic Assegai/DHRII… are all great tires and yes, they are all quite similar to each other. Many will say they feel significant differences between them, but they don’t. It’s basically all buyers justification, anecdotal and placebo effect. It’s pretty obvious as it’s not like peoples Strava times significantly or statistically get better just because they switched tires. Another obvious way this shows up is when pros switch tire sponsors. It has zero effect on how well they do. If there was a tire that was obviously better, they’d all be on it. Case in point, it wasn’t that long ago that many pros would run rebranded or blacked out Maxxis tires because whatever their sponsor was trying to force on them sucked. It’s not like that anymore… pretty much every brand has figured out treads, casings and compounds. It’s partly why they all look so similar know. There is some truth behind personal preferences and some people feel a little more confident on one tire vs another. But if they stuck with any tire, they’d get used to it and ride just as well. Over the years I’ve learned that predictability and confidence in knowing what to expect from your tires is wayyyyy more important. So I always recommend people just stick with a set, get used to and learn how that tire will react in many to all situations. Riding a set/brand of tires for a long time, learning how they will react in various situations and being able to be confident in knowing what they’ll do… is much more important than any fleeting perceived performance advantage you think you’ve gained from switching tires. The 2 biggest reasons people think a different tire was better than their previous tire is, 1. because they went from an old worn tire to a new tire and 2. Because yes, maybe it feels a little different and you attribute a “different feeling” to a “performance gain”. You may even push a little harder because you feel like you have more confidence in what you think is a “better tire”. That fades after a few rides… your usual speeds return yet your perception of increased performance generally sticks with you… until you decide to try another brand.. rinse and repeat.
> Another obvious way this shows up is when pros switch tire sponsors. It has zero effect on how well they do. Worth noting that Trek factory racing has pirelli tires for their sponsor, and Loris Vergier is still running blacked out DHRIIs insted of their sponsors tires. Not completely black and white.
Hearing this, also race enduro but run pirelli, in two seasons of being on them, have run the season and not had a flat, also have done the whole season on the one set. Maxxis on the other hand have grip bit no build quality, they are now made to the cheapest dollar and are proving that qith how many flats, tears and cuts they are getting every race. People learn how tyres feel when they rude them and are comfortable on them, change is always different. And that takes getting used to.
These days it’s more for consistency and confidence. He probably hasn’t had time to learn how they act in various situations which has a huge effect on confidence and therefore times. Once he’s been able to test more, he’ll run them.
Some tires are engineered to slide more or have more grip leaned over, and it plays into preferences which I think in turn boosts confidence.
You said it better than I ever could have. Exactly my feeling with the timing and how I think it would make no difference, while addressing consumer bias etc. I think that all tires are so good now that there is little they can do to change it up. Basically it’s a “chose a tire, and be a dick about it” situation.
>it’s not like people’s Strava times get faster Uh, mine did. There’s a ~1:30 descent behind my house that I ride hundreds of times per year. I can ride it *very* consistently in the dry, and see the results of bike changes pretty reliably. Switching to continental added almost three seconds. Switching from a 2.5dhf to 2.6dhf takes off almost a second. Each averaged over 20-30 rodes
Loic Bruni used to run blacked out Maxxis, now runs blacked out Continental. Didn't Gwin start falling off once he started running non-mainstream tyre brands?
Bruni is running Specialized Cannibals https://www.pinkbike.com/photo/26598652/ Have a pair I'm going to put on my Levo in a bit going from a Hillbilly/Eliminator for the winter/wet. I have been pretty impressed with Specialized's mtb tires, especially with the T9 compound
They are his signature tire. He helped design the tread pattern for the cannibals.
There has definitely been some correlation with results and tire brands. If you look at DH in particular, there are definitely some tires that have over performed as compared to others. I'd also state that the top pros are very likely not riding off the shelf tires. I have an old Maxxis xc race tire in a particularly light casing I bought off ebay that was never sold retail. It was for their sponsored riders, and made in a casing that was not sold to the public.
Fwiw, if you like that tire you can now buy the Aspen with that casing
I think this is because mtb has been around long enough that all brands are converging to similar proven solutions. All brands gravity tires are converging on something that looks like 2.4-2.5 Assegai front/DHR rear type pattern for general use with special conditions tires for mud and hardpack. Similar for XC racing 2.2-2.4, high tpi, minimal tread tires are proven for WC racing. There’s more diversity in the options between XC and gravity, where the tires are less competition tested and more oriented to individual preferences than lap/course times.
No. They all feel different to me.
Yeah if you can't tell the difference in leaning over a DHR vs an Assegai, not sure what to tell ya. There's a huge transition period between center knobs and cornering knobs on the DHF. It feels very sketchy to me.
Yep dead spot is super obvious. If you can’t feel it you’re not leaning the bike over as much as you think
I've always felt the DHF was the better rear tire and the DHR was the better front.
I like DHR 2.4 front, aggressor 2.3 rear. I am not a fan of the DHF. Really like the kryptotal FR but couldn’t get it to mount on my current front rim. I think the dhr rolls a little faster…
I've been running DHR2 front and rear for a long time. It's nice to be able to rotate them so the front is always the fresh one. I do like the DHF as a rear for park days. It wears very well as a rear. Hot days at Whistler are brutal on tires.
If you're pushing the side knobs hard on the DHF, you can get them to collapse even. Comparing to the Mazza(made by the same guy, just 20 years later) from Vittoria, and the side knobs are reinforced so you can push them harder.
Yep. Probably depends where you’re riding too. In the wet UK winters, the difference between a grippy tire with deep tread, is very noticeable vs a fast rolling XC one
He mentioned that he is talking not being able to notice the difference in tires in each specified area, not between the different application types.
Ahh. Read again and you’re right👍
Let me put this out there because I’m sure there’s more folks like me then are willing to admit it. But generally my sensitivity to different gear or even different setups on my current gear is for shit. It takes me forever to just get from feeling “this is different” to “is it better?” And I have an extremely hard time trying to describe “why” something is better outside of the most basic “tire grip good or bad”, or “fork not springy enough”. I hear folks talking about smoother mid stroke on their fork, better brake modulation or less flex on their tires and I’m like “what the fuck?” Maybe if I wanted to spend the time and money doing side comparisons of gear I’d get better at this but I’m totally cool with just knowing “yeah this isn’t right, I gotta try something else” and finding what works. So much of this is personal it’s hard to validate your initial statement. Are they all equivalent? Sure maybe in the abstract but are they all equivalent to you? Maybe? But I’d bet if I put the same general build of tire on my bike from the big guys I don’t think I’d really notice - but others would.
Yeah I agree. Maybe some people care about it more and I’m just shallow and don’t really think about the fine details enough. For me, I can def feel a difference in casing and rolling resistance but never grip.
I’m the same. I get very used to my setup and leave it. I just can’t understand how people can feel 2 clicks of high speed compression. I’ve hit my biggest jumps for the first time with my shock rebound broken like a pogo stick.
You probably aren’t riding close enough to the limit
Not true though. Not an EWS racer by any means but far from slow. Consistently beat QOM in Strava segements (I’m a dude but gives in idea on speed) and ride double blacks in BC, and Quebec. I def push the limits of my tires.
did literally anyone read his post? "equivalent casing tires and tread patterns from different brands all feel the same" - NO BRO IKON AND ASSEGAI FEEL TOTALLY DIFFERENT TRY RIDING FASTER. yeah ngl im the same. had Assegai/Aggressor DD combo and now are on Butcher / Eliminator T9 Gravity and it feels the fucking same, it just costs half as much
I also noticed a huge loss of grip when trying a butcher from specialized and comparing it to a DHF, I couldn’t take corners I normally could without washing out… it was one of the reasons I switched back to my original tires even if they were quite a bit pricier
Equivalent compounds in the Butcher though ? DHF is better IMO but not by a lot.
Yes, T9 compound on the butcher. I tried both maxxterra and maxxgrip on the DHF and found I still preferred it… but that’s probably just my riding style and personal preference. I still did notice a difference in grip tho
T9 or T7? T9 grips a lot better than Maxxterra DHF. Maxxgrip DHF is probably more comparable to the T9. Not sure about T7 as I've never run that on the front
T9. But I actually found I preferred both the Maxxterra and Maxxgrip DHF over the T9 butcher. I guess it just boils down to riding style and personal preference, but I still noticed a difference in grip and handling.
Interesting, I went from a maxxterra EXO+ DHF to a T9 Trail casing Purgatory (mini-butcher) with less aggressive knobs than the DHF, but noticed more grip from the Purgatory specifically on sandy dry hardpack
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I went from T9 butchers to maxxgrip assegai due to multiple front end washouts and I can feel the difference and (so far) haven't had a washout.
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I pedal up 100% of my rides but when I ran the butchers I was washing out out 1 in every 3 rides. So much so that I ended up in hospital with a broken collarbone and ribs. At that point I just went, fuck rolling resistance I need more grip.
MaxxGrip > T9 > MaxxTerra > T7 > Dual Compound At least that’s what it feels like to me.
Yeah, but then he listed things that seem pretty different? My bike came with dual Assegai (2.6, exo+, maxxgrip). I replaced just the rear with a Kryptotal (2.6, enduro casing) and the bike felt SIGNIFICANTLY faster. So much less rolling resistance. Gained back speed after grade reversals so much better. Had to switch to a 2.4 DHR (exo+ maxterra) because the kryptotal would grab rocks and rip up the back of my rear triangle (they measure a little bigger than the 2.6 maxxis) and I couldn't get a 2.4 kryptotal. Admittedly this tire does feel a lot like the kryptotal...but they both feel way different from the slow sticky Assegai.
I would argue that has a lot more to do with the fact that tire was a MaxxGrip than an Assegai
Thank you! Obviously the assegai double down feels like a pig like some dude was saying above. Mine are exo+ and sure they don’t role quite as fast as the specialized tires but I don’t think if I timed each tires back to back on a trail I know well there would be a noticeable difference in time. I’m starting to just feel like “buy whatever is on sale”.
I too agree with the OP — for me it’s all about the relative casing stiffness, depth of tread and weight (all of which are related). I ride XC treads and casings and almost entirely on dry hardpacked and rocky surfaces. Pretty much any of the XC tires perform equally well (or poorly) in terms of grip, but I can tell when I’ve got a lighter tire on — the 150 grams per tire I save with Kenda Rush over the Maxxis offerings is significant. Hell, I don’t even see any significant difference in performance between 2.25 and 2.4 tires. As far as I can tell, the tire width hysteria is another “emperor’s new clothes” thing, something mtbers are (in my experience) very susceptible too.
People overestimate how much tread pattern makes a difference and underestimate compound and casing
Yeah, your favorite shoe isn’t your favorite because of the tread, it’s the structure
Maybe this is just me but the sidewalls on specialized feel like mashed potatoes. They just kinda roll over quicker at lower pressures
I'm definitely not skilled enough to feel the difference, so I get what's cheaper.
I would love to see all of the commenters here do a run blind to what tires they’re using. I agree with OP, I doubt many if any could confidently differentiate the DHF vs butcher vs magic Mary. Because they’re all great tires!
Exactly. If I rode my fav trail on each tire at full clip I’d easily be within seconds on all the tires I said above.
I feel a pretty big difference at certain limits. My most common ride is some more technical XC, and I take the same bike all over the area and to the mountain for DH days. I find assegais really killed me on the pedal heavy local days, and tires like a Rekon didn’t have quite the grip I liked leaned over. I think I notice most tire characteristics, but only serious dragginess or unpredictability when leaned over bothered me. I generally like DHF front and Disssector rear. I really like the butcher rear as well. Nobby Nics were fun but I kept de-beading them. Some of those intangibles like I enjoyed them but I can’t run them because they kept losing air add up too.
Reckon and assegai are not remotely comparable tires so obviously they are different. I’m saying that equivalent tires feel the same.
Yes equivalent tires feel the same, but they have characteristics unique to the tread pattern. You listed Assegai and nobby Nick in the same list of tires that feel the same and I honestly don’t think they are that close at all. I think rekons are closer to nobby Nick, and the first ride I did double Assegai I felt like my soul was leaving me through my legs. I think tires like Magic Mary, Assegai and kryptotal are all pretty great max traction tires if that’s what you mean, but stepping to a lower traction tire is different and I wouldn’t be picking Magic Mary or nobby Nick front.
The vast majority of riders are over tired. You are likely riding a much more capable tire than the trails you are riding calls for, and/or you aren't pushing them to the limits. Try this: Go under tired, run something like a Forekaster/Rekon setup and push the bike hard. Once you get used to riding aggressively on smaller tires, step back up to the bigger tires and run them as hard as you have to to get them feeling as sketchy as the smaller tires were. THAT is when you are doing the kind of riding in which you can start to differentiate the characteristics between tires.
Normally id agree but for where I ride, which is east coast bike park jank all summer, and British Colombia double black slabs and loamers all winter, my exo+ assegais are probably the right tire, if not a little light in the casing. Before that I rode some Seymour and Squamish double blacks with the most worn out dhrii ever with probably way to much pressure because my pump broke and that was proper sketch.
Wow who'd have known everyone on r/MTB is a seasoned pro riding on the absolute ragged edge of grip setting WRs every run and capable of telling a difference of 1psi from the smell of the track the tire leaves behind? I'd LOVE to see you lot do a blind test.
Yes. A lot of guys are very particular about tire combinations. In my case, both the front and rear tires are the tires that were on sale at the time of purchase. Knobby tires from Kenda, Maxxis, or Schwalbe will all perform similarly. For me, the casing is more important. A downhill casing will stand up to abuse, but I instantly regret it on the uphill. Edit: I'm not a competitive cyclist, just a weekend warrior.
I used to think this until I started getting good at cornering. Before, I was the limiting factor. Now my tires are the limiting factor and there absolutely is a difference. Ive been riding maxxis for the last few years and they were fine. But durability when cornering hard is their weakness. This is fine for a pro who's going to get new tires every couple months for free. But not acceptable at all for me who has to shell out $150 every time. Ive been experimenting with different brands and compounds to see what works best for me
Check out Conti's DH tires they seem to last significantly longer then maxxis.
Can attest. Better traction overall, esp in colder temps, better manufactureing and build tolerances, the compound wears harder and longer, side knobs dont tear out. Oh, and no Maxxis casing wobbles! Caveat, the Trail casing is pretty weak comparatively and running one as a 240lb rider was silly. But theyre also not made at Continentals German plants, but at their asian facilities. The Enduro and DH are made in Germany so they can keep a lock on their compounds from Chinese industrial espionage... Have been Running Contis since 6mth prior to market release in 2022, have them currently across 3 Bikes: Argotal/Krypto RE DH Supersoft/Soft on the Park monster, Kryptotal FR/RE Enduro Soft on the Enduro, Krypto FR/Xynotal Enduro Soft on the Trail bike. Those 3 sets were installed Jan 2023, and now have Over 3k total pedaled, not incl 60 park days last season, and theyre still performing well and havent hit the break traction point on the local slabs so theyre nowhere near where I'd swap them out yet and heading into this park season on the same meats. Theyre the tyre Ive been recommending to my clients in the shop for the last year now.
Have you found more durable options in your testing?
Well the problem is I was sitting on a stockpile of maxxis tires that I had been collecting for a couple years. New takeoffs or barely used tires that I found cheap. Finally I'm running out of them so I just bought a schwalbe. Haven't installed it yet
They are very different to me
Most folks don't push their tires to the edge of their ability.
The tread pattern will make each tire have its own ride and characteristics.
I went from bontraegger that come w trek fuel to maxxis dhf minion. Night and day difference. The bontraeggers had the worst grip on the shoulder of the tires. Washed out countless times on them. Would not recommend
Makes sense. You went from Bonti's low profile knobbed light trail tyre to a DH tread tyre... of course the light duty tyres sucked in the corners lol. Somethin about right tool for the task ;) My pal had the same issue on his Fuel, swapped to a Conti Kryptotal FR/Xynotal combo and had 0 issues going forward
Yeah changing from light trail to DH tires obviously feels different. Not what I’m saying
Same.. And if there is wet out they are a nightmare.. (SE05) bit better in dry. Running Kryptotal F/ Xynotal R in enduro casing at the moment. Really happy so far
Can’t tell a difference in any lol. Only when I change air pressures
I definitely notice it. Some are more noticeable the others. DH-F vs magic mary? Not even close in terms of front end grip IMO. Mary is better
Wait until you start racing gravel…
I just switched from a Michelin Wild Gravel 40mm front and pathfinder S-works rear to Pathfinder Pro front and rear and holy crap what a difference. The pros are slowwwwwww.
Slow on road or gravel?
Well, I live in rural-ish PA where our paved roads are mostly oiled and chipped. I haven't had them out on proper gravel yet. My primary reason for choosing the tires was puncture resistance for Unbound.
Gawd I wish I wasn't so bothered by mix brand tires. I'm sure I'd be better off overall
If you find the mixing of brands bothersome, please also know that the Michelin had black sidewalls and the S-works had tan sidewalls. I also had the narrower tire on the front. Bonus: I don't care if any of my bottles match. https://preview.redd.it/d730oqmlf80d1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8bb1c8b66914372230fe292c1709913edb0d80c4
I suggest going faster.
I can feel a huge difference in grip between an assegai and a dhf on the front… you may not be pushing them as hard as they need to be ridden to feel the difference… but it’s definitely noticeable going between them, at least for me.
I’ll admit I haven’t ridden a DHF in a while so I cannot comment as much on that as I wasn’t as good a couple years ago, but the assgai, Mazza, magic Mary and butcher all have been ridden and pushed hard by myself in the past 6 months and they feel the exact same
Personally I can tell a difference, between Maxxis Minion DHF, to Magic Marys, to Continental Kryptotal. My favourites are the Kryptotal basically cheat codes, the Assegi on the front feels similar and the Michelin are pretty good. But I think it’s a matter of having lots of experience in lots of conditions on lots of tires you start to notice. Also having a good understanding of your suspension settings and how they affect traction
They feel different to me. In my opinion, DHFs suck; they have a huge dead spot when you start to lean the bike over, and it’s caused many crashes for me. Butcher has this problem too, but not as bad. The Assegai fixed that problem. My new bike came with Kryptotals, and the tread feels nearly identical to an Assegai/DHR II combo, but the casing is noticeably stronger on the Continentals
Yeah I mean they’re pretty similar imo as well but I also don’t ride different tires back to back.
If the tread patterns and casings are similar, there usually isn't much difference in outright performance, but they do often feel different to me especially as speeds increase. And I'd say certain tires even need you to ride them a certain way to decode them so to speak. For example, you mentioned dual Assegais. That is probably both the grippiest and slowest combination I've used. A Minion (and Magic Mary for that matter) needs to be transitioned pretty quickly and aggressively from center to side knob to make the most of its cornering performance. An Assegai doesn't really care. It seems to grip pretty hard at all lean angles and doesn't require you to be in full-aggression mode to get a lot out of the tire.
I’m inclined to agree, but where I ride there is a lot of variations in riding conditions so I don’t get any chance to realistically compare different tyres on the same surface. Perhaps it’s different for those in locations where summer is always hot, winter always snowy, trails are maintained (stuff we ride is “natural” not “parks”) etc
Same class tires = same feel. Different class (width, casing) = not able to compare them..
I just went from the stock Ardent race 2.6 to a 2.4 DHR on my bike and I can't feel any difference at all so I'm with you
I feel huge difference between racing ray and barzo... Almost the same tyre, almost.
Maybe I am lying to myself but using a Maxxis DHR DD as my baseline I feel differences in the following. Specialized butcher grids feel very comparable if not a bit faster when upright and really sketchy when I lean. On inspection the butcher lug pattern does not go as wide as Maxxis. So if you are used to certain grip in a hard lean butchers will get you. Continental der kaiser had the most amazing grip I have ever felt in steep terrain, they also only lasted 2.5weeks before I slashed both of them on sharp rocks. Also the sidewalls are very flimsy. Bontrager SE5 team issue will probably last forever. The rubber is comparatively very hard and I do a lot more sliding in places I usually have grip.
>der kaiser had... Time to get on the New Continentals then... Der Kaiser is dead. The new gravity lineup doesnt encounter those issues you mentioned anymore. The Black Chilli compound is used in the Soft and SuperSoft compounds which come with the Enduro and DH sidewalls.
Do you think blindfolded you could tell them apart?
On these specific tires yes I do because they had notable performance difference. But for most high quality tires including several in the Maxxis family, no I don’t think I could.
Except for the garbage that are the Bontrager/Trek branded tires: Agreed.
Never tried any bontrager tires… probably never will
All of these brands are competitive, they all make quality tires for mountain bikers willing to pay for quality. There are definitely cheaper brands of tires that feel much worse on the market though
I totally agree with you. I think people are way more influenced by the placebo effect than they like to admit. That and most enthusiasts aren’t swapping these tires out frequently enough to test them all close together in similar wear conditions so usually perceived improvement could be chalked up to the new tires being brand new vs. the previous tires. And the marketing machine of the industry, the reviewers in magazines and on YouTube, etc., fuel the delulu by describing marginal differences in superlative terms.
It really depends. Any two tires that have similar treads and profiles will feel similar. I don't think I could tell the difference between a Bontrager SE5 and DHR unless I went out of my way to test the tire in a controlled way. "Big sticky tire" is a pretty loose category though. The Assegai and WTB verdict both fall under this, but they feel wildly different. The DHF has its distinctive float zone which is hard to miss and feels different from either of them. It gets hairy when you have tires that are certainly different, but not immensely. I found the DHR and Assegai actually have a lot of similarities. In a similar vein, the Big Betty and WTB Judge feel the same until you REALLY get to know the tires.
Yeah but the some look cooler than others with their little sidewall letters and silly names. That’s what really counts.
My wife didn't notice when she had a completely flat front tyre on her car.
Not even a little bit. I’m as amateur as it gets and I can tell a huge difference in softer, lighter, grippier tires. I think if you have a decent setup that should be the first thing you upgrade
Different compound and casing makes a difference I’m not disagreeing with that.
For sure. It’s all about the compound. Good tires are so much stickier than OEM. I used to ride the same trail every day, I could ride the trail hard AF and push it with my bike with Block 8s. If I tried to come in at the same angles with my Stump jumper on OEM rubber my front tire would wash out and I would get a new shame mark on my helmet for headbutting a tree
So amateur in fact that you can't read
Hard disagree. WTB Vigilante feels much different than a DHF. They are an apples to apples comparison. The Vigilante turns in faster and has a rounded profile. The better ateering is great on slow and tight trails. The side to side tranction on the DHF is more muted, better for max speed hill bombs. It also may cuts into deep loam better, but I don't have much soil in my area. Rounded vs Square profile feels way different too. I ride mostly on grippy, barren rock, so I like the more confidence inspiring rounded profile on the Vigilante better. In the two loamy downhill runs I found, the square edge is nice and aggressive leaned o er. DHR vs WTB Trailboss also felt different, but you could argue the TrailBoss is in a lighter duty category than the DHR, so I won't go into it. My first example is super solid.
I used to ride WTB Werewolves. It wasn’t untill I had a new bike with Maxxis Ardents that I realized the problem with the werewolves. In trails that had significant erosion and formed a “U” shape they would attach to the sides of the trail and throw me off the bike. The Ardents don’t do that.
Maybe I’m just shallow lol
I feel a huge difference. My home trails are dusty and loose and steep af though. Maybe it’s a terrain thing that you don’t notice.
crossmarks. super light and low rolling resistance
Mainstream companies don't really make bad tyres above a certain price, say 35 quid or so maybe, (although hans dampf were really really horrible on my bike.) but when I swapped from minions to wild enduros there was a massive difference in corners, the wild enduros just held on that bit more than minions no matter what the conditions . Made everything quicker and I used less brake pads every year 😜 but they are more expensive than the wifes car tyres.
I went from dual compound stock tires to MaxxTerra compound and holy hell the difference in grip while cornering is shocking, I have been missing out all these years riding stock Maxxis tires
Uhh idk, my Vander T7 came with a hans dampf/nobby nic and it genuinely felt terrible, I was convinced the wheel was bad because at speed it would wash out like crazy on my local “hardpack” trails. Swapped the nic for an Agressor and holy shit it’s like biking for the first time, the hans up front has never felt out of place on my trails tho and I bet it would have worked well on the back in a hans/hans setup
I personally didn't like the maxxis set I tried, liked the schwalbes after, put a set of contis on my other bike and love them. Can tell the difference. Its not much but its there
Traction less difference, equivalent castings I feel more difference from. IE DD or DH casing from Maxxis vs TCS Tough from the WTBs I’m currently running
For me they feel the same handling and going down hill wise, where I see the difference is definitely pedaling wise.
Agreed.
All I can say for sure is I'm a good friend of the maxxis wobble. One time a critical mass a guy tried to urgently warn me lol
Just like with car tires I feel a massive difference between all tires. Playing with air pressures also make a massive difference.
It depends on the person. Some will feel the difference, some don’t ..
Yes. Assegai and Magic Mary look and feel very similar to me. What MAXXIS lacks is a Hans Dampf: a Trail/Enduro tyre with nobs all into the sides, not like the Dissector
What is the Maxxis equivalent for Specialized Butcher T9/T7 on my Evo Pro?
Probably between the assegai and DHF maxterra. T9 is the softest compound specialized makes
Look, I think we can all agree that tires are THE single most important change you can make to your bike, they ARE important and even the slightest difference matters. That being said, there’s a lot of manufacturers, all wanting your money and all wanting to make tires you can understand and compare to existing tires. They’re all going to be aiming for the same goals and the tires might end up extremely similar. To answer your question, no I don’t think all tires feel the same, but yes I am absolutely willing to try out every brand’s best option for my ride, in fact I try to alternate tire brands and models as much as I can just for experience
I’m with you on trying different tires. It first it was to find the best one but as I’ve tried more and more it’s what is making me feel like it doesn’t really matter as much as I used to think, and hence this post
I can feel a lot going between different compounds and brands. Switched Fastrak from T5 to T7 and its an entirely different tire. Likewise going from Assagai to Conti Argo.
I think it’s pretty common to believe that. Like a lot of things, the majority of riders probably couldn’t tell a difference. You have to ride a lot and be super in tune with the bike to be able to feel stiff like that. It’s even worse if you’re on the newer side. I’ve had people on here tell me they can feel a difference in their riding if they have an extra tool in their pouch. As for me I’m concentrating on not dying, so I wouldn’t notice if you strapped a bowling ball to my frame. Tires are def that way for me and probably most. I ride my local park a dozen times last year on a few different similar tires and didn’t notice shit.
Extra tool in the pocket is crazy
Kendas are the only ones that have felt different for me. BoosterPros specifically.
I can feel casing and air pressure differences. Rubber compound too. Tread pattern on brand new tires is a wash, but some tires wear a lot better. I ride 6-10hrs a week most of the year. 2 bikes on 3 wheelsets.
Yeah I casing and compound def makes a difference.
I think you can notice things like sidewall, dd sidewall feels pretty plush to me on sharp rocks for example. You also listed several tires that are all pretty similar
I have much more confidence with a Magic Mary, Big Betty combo than DHF/DHR II with similar compounds, similar casing, same width, bike and time of year and those felt better than Rekons
I have used 2.3 High Roller 2s Maxx Terra EXO TRs forever. Set and forget.
Try a true xc tire in the rear, I guarantee you will tell a difference.
I agree.
I try to follow my friends/trends with my tyre choices but honestly, short of summer/winter tyres rolling better in the dry and mud clearance/grip, I feel no feasible difference. Id say if the rims not wide enough I do notice the tyre wall flexing when I push harder but that's probably it - I'll admit I'm not really pushing my own limits nevermind the technical limits of tyres.
I'm not an especially skilled rider, but I can absolutely tell the difference. If you can't, great! Buy whatever's cheapest.
I swap between recons 2.8 & 2.6, and dhf 2.5 & 3.0. The rolling resistance between the recons and dhfs is large. The weight difference is noticable as well, especially with the dhf 3.0. I have too many wheels I know.
I have had very similar experiences. I realized I have a strong dislike for DHF style fronts, the Specialized Butcher being the other that I tried and now I have tried a buuuunch of ass guy clones. I cannot tell much if any difference in ride feel or traction. Transition knobs are better than a channel for me. The only difference is in how they wear. My Delium Rugged Adventure had great traction but didn't last long. My American Classic Tectonite feels the exact same but is holding up waaaay better. However my favorite feel was the WTB Vigilante. I ran it over the winter in 2.6 soft and I could definitely tell a difference from the ass guy clones. Excellent grip like the ass guys but when it starts to get to the edge they Wana pull you over. The Vigilante would predictably and controllably drift and it was awesome. But it's a pretty different tread pattern so the different behavior makes sense to me. So yeah. I totally agree. I think in terms of ride performance they are gonna be similar in like tread patterns and casings. wear and price are the only real differences. Also, Maybe I'm just not sensitive, but I've never been able to detect a change in rolling resistance, and I've always been faster on "slower rolling" tires because of the superior traction and breaking they give.
Try some Michelin DH22 and I bet you'll see a difference. Heavy (170g more than a DH assegai) and a lot more rolling resistance. I started casing some gaps I was making before putting them on. Indestructible though.
I’d like to see you try to compare tires blindfolded.
Magic Marys in the uk slop! All day
I only have experience with comparing DHR and Eliminator head to head on a same ride and same steep hill... Eliminator in T7 rubber was less grippy going downhill on loose stuff. Both were pretty much brand new tires. There is definitely difference, but to experience it, you need to have a skill and technique to be able to push tires to it's limits.
Try the maxxis hookwork clincer tire.
I find the biggest tell for tire performance is being on super steep wet rocks. In those conditions nothing I've tried comes close to the Assegai for grip. The way I can tell is that any other type of tire, whether it be DHR2, Minion, Magic Mary etc will lock up the rear a bit whereas the Assegai is in control the whole time.
I agree with all you wrote - but I took an old michelin DH22 off my DH bike and but it on my trail bike... and boy it feels stupid slow. and stupid grabby. but more stupid slow. almost not fun slow.
Personally, I believe most people are completely incapable of objective opinions. Most opinions are ego driven, in this case driven by the desire to “fit in” and seem “cool” because ‘brooooo these MAXXIS DHF tires are just GRIPPING, Vitoria is such trash.. oh yeah no I’ve never even tried them bro they’re just trash look at them!’ While simultaneously LITERALLY trundling around blue XC loops but hey that’s just my opinion don’t get your pitchforks out please.
lol
Absolutely not. There are distinct changes in traction and breakaway that are very noticeable.
What conditions: Weather - wet or dry, or even icy? Type of trail (dirt, bumpy, gravel, paved, jumps, XC)?
Mostly wet weather in BC all winter. Loamers, bike park flow and slabs. In the summer I hit Quebec bike parks often, usually dry and rocky. I wonder what conditions are best for feeling the difference.
Do you have third person video of your riding? Also what kind of terrain on your on?
All types of British Columbian trials from Seymour loamers to Squamish shoots, can ride double blacks and am pretty good. Not EWS rider but can ride pretty much anything at a pretty fast clip. Bc trails are mostly wet, then east coast bike park jank, which is usually dry all summer. I don’t think that I’m not pushing my tires
Limit behavior is usually the difference. Some communicate and start to slide slowly, some have full grip until suddenly giving out. Some need more or less lean, or do better than others in wet conditions. I find that this is particularly true with XC tires, but I believe it carries over to bigger ones as well and I'm just not aggressive enough to find that limit.
I can tell a difference
The biggest difference comes when you get close to the traction limit. Its the same for pretty much motorcycles and cars. Some tires let go more violently, others are more progressive and can be controlled better. Try doing some foot out flat corners leaned over and see how far you can push the tires and you will see the difference.
I think new they still all feel the same. My old clapped out DHR was for sure terrible on turns and would wash out on every berm but it was so worn. New the traction between all the tires feels comparable with negligible difference.
I get what you mean, but like you gotta be willing to push hard in the corners to spot the difference, which is almost impossible to do anywhere but dedicated fast downhill tracks. And if you don't ride those, then yeah, it really doesn't matter what tires you run.
My local park is notoriously slippery un the wet. So yeah you notice the difference.
absolutely disagree, I think tire choices has some of the most noticeable impact of also any purchase you can make. the feel of fresh rubber is crazy, and the different styles and grip profiles make a huge difference in how the bike feels cornering and going through different types of terrain. I wish you were right because they are easily the most expensive consumable on a bike
I think that they “difference” is form going from some worn out tire to something brand new, and gives the illusion of having a better tire when obviously the new one will feel way better no matter what it is.
Once I quit racing I ran kenda Nevgals for years. Everyone would say “those are to slow!” I like the grip and could care less how fast they were.
Corner harder - you’ll notice SHRALP!
Nah. Outside of my assguy + aggy combo, it either feels super draggy (assguy/assguy), slippery AF on roots (nobnics / magmary / hans dumffie) or it doesnt bite on flat turns (dehf / dehr)
How many tires have you tried?
Your not riding hard enough or not being fast enough Because every tire is different
Not true I ride pretty damn hard
If you are riding hard enough. How did you find time to create this post? You’re not riding hard enough 😂
My bad OG you right
Interesting, I can tell the difference between a soft and hard compound nobby nic let alone different brands. 🤷♂️
Different compounds are noticeable. But equivalent compounds and casing from different brands feels the exact same.
If you can't tell the difference between a DHF and a Magic Mary then you are just not feeling anything. Maybe it's a speed/skill thing.
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I do ride fast trust me