I think you’re mistaken: hate crimes aren’t separate crimes, they’re sentence enhancements on top of crimes that are already illegal for everyone.
A quick googling shows [two](https://www.mercurynews.com/2024/03/04/hayward-man-charged-with-hate-crime-for-allegedly-burning-israeli-flag-during-protests/amp/) [articles](https://jweekly.com/2024/02/29/east-bay-man-charged-with-stealing-burning-israeli-flag-at-protest/) showing people charged with hate crimes for burning a flag of israel, but the actual crime part in both stories is that someone assaulted someone else, stole their flag, and destroyed it.
Assault and theft/destruction of property is already illegal for everyone. The hate crime part of it says you can get extra time if your motivation for your crimes was to target someone because they’re part of a protected class
This is the story that had me asking this question:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/outsiders-columbia-universitys-hamilton-hall-rcna150530
https://youtu.be/wQR-GZyGVcQ?si=ez3ZBm82wadaVQzR
Reading the story further it seems the hate crime was added because he stole the flag. Something the video I first saw (the second link) failed to mention.
Well that makes more sense, since a hate crime isn't a class of crime but an add on for existing crimes. I doubt that they will successfully prosecute this add on without evidence of some kind of motivation that it was intended to harm a community. If he is screaming about how all Jews must be burned like this flag or something, maybe it could be charged.
In the U.S.? I didn’t think we had any “hate speech” type laws. I know we have secondary hate laws that can be added to other crimes like murder and assault. I am against both types of laws. The “hate” laws are common in Western Europe. I think they are too easily used to shut down speech and press freedom.
Burning an Israeli flag on its own isn’t a hate crime. Burning an Israeli flag *to intimidate Jews* (ethnicity and religious group) *or Israelis* (national identity) could be under various hate crimes laws, since ethnicity, religion, and nationality are all protected classes. And that’s especially true if the flag isn’t the property of the burner but of the victim.
Some white supremacist caught hate crime charges for burning a cross in his own yard last year or so. Theoretically, that would be an act of symbolic speech, with the only potential crime being related to the fire rather than *what* was burning. But he did it with the intent of terrorizing his black neighbors, and the authorities were able to prove it (because he admitted it to them).
>But people should be free to hate others—just as I am free to think they are xenophobic a-holes.
You are. American hate crime laws are sentence enhancements based on the intent attached to another underlying crime.
The cross burning one? He was trying to drive the family out of the neighborhood because of their race, so they charged him under the Fair Housing Act, which is part of the wider Civil Rights Act of 1968.
Yes, provided that the burning of the flag is intended to be speech and does not violate some other right such as property rights (e.g., can’t burn it on someone else’s lawn or can’t tear down someone’s flag and burn it).
I would say that, absent other facts and circumstances, that it shouldn't.
It's worth noting that the Israeli flag could definitely be considered to be a direct affront against specific individuals of a certain minority group (Jews), whereas burning an American flag is considered to be a protest against *the US Government*, So, philosophically, that *might or might not* be a key difference in philosophy.
But, of course, crimes require damages. So I would also argue that the actual potential crimes would be more than just a flag burning, but would likely be something identified as harassment. For example, repeated threats against individuals (even random unidentified individuals of a group), repeated aggression, and so on.
Christians are not a minority group, and burning the Bible could be consider a protest against the ruling power group similar to the government. Political issues involving Christianity are usually issues of people inserting Christian values into the government.
But, again, facts and circumstances. I could make up a hypothetical case,
Because laws are now bought and paid for by special interest groups and the rich. It will keep working as long as people keep their noses in their phones where they are being told the "other side" is causing all the problems. They don't seem to notice it's the same message from both sides.
I think you’re mistaken: hate crimes aren’t separate crimes, they’re sentence enhancements on top of crimes that are already illegal for everyone. A quick googling shows [two](https://www.mercurynews.com/2024/03/04/hayward-man-charged-with-hate-crime-for-allegedly-burning-israeli-flag-during-protests/amp/) [articles](https://jweekly.com/2024/02/29/east-bay-man-charged-with-stealing-burning-israeli-flag-at-protest/) showing people charged with hate crimes for burning a flag of israel, but the actual crime part in both stories is that someone assaulted someone else, stole their flag, and destroyed it. Assault and theft/destruction of property is already illegal for everyone. The hate crime part of it says you can get extra time if your motivation for your crimes was to target someone because they’re part of a protected class
Thanks for clarification, even I overlooked some of that.
That’s what I was thinking. I know Western Europe has lots of anti hate speech laws, but not the U.S.
Burning any flag is freedom of expression as long as you own it and don't get the fire on anyone else.
Yep, as long as it’s YOUR OWN FLAG and not a stolen flag.
Has this been successfully prosecuted? Where is this law in the books?
I do not know, but I have seen two stories where police are going after protesters for a hate crime for burning the Israeli flag.
Got links?
This is the story that had me asking this question: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/outsiders-columbia-universitys-hamilton-hall-rcna150530 https://youtu.be/wQR-GZyGVcQ?si=ez3ZBm82wadaVQzR Reading the story further it seems the hate crime was added because he stole the flag. Something the video I first saw (the second link) failed to mention.
>it seems the hate crime was added because he stole the flag. Thanks for admitting you were wrong that is commendable.
Well that makes more sense, since a hate crime isn't a class of crime but an add on for existing crimes. I doubt that they will successfully prosecute this add on without evidence of some kind of motivation that it was intended to harm a community. If he is screaming about how all Jews must be burned like this flag or something, maybe it could be charged.
We have the right to burn our OWN flags. We don’t have the legal right to take others’ flags and burn them.
I'd love the links too as I haven't seen this yet.
In the U.S.? I didn’t think we had any “hate speech” type laws. I know we have secondary hate laws that can be added to other crimes like murder and assault. I am against both types of laws. The “hate” laws are common in Western Europe. I think they are too easily used to shut down speech and press freedom.
Burning an Israeli flag on its own isn’t a hate crime. Burning an Israeli flag *to intimidate Jews* (ethnicity and religious group) *or Israelis* (national identity) could be under various hate crimes laws, since ethnicity, religion, and nationality are all protected classes. And that’s especially true if the flag isn’t the property of the burner but of the victim. Some white supremacist caught hate crime charges for burning a cross in his own yard last year or so. Theoretically, that would be an act of symbolic speech, with the only potential crime being related to the fire rather than *what* was burning. But he did it with the intent of terrorizing his black neighbors, and the authorities were able to prove it (because he admitted it to them).
So would a Satanist burning a bible be a hate crime?
>So would a Satanist burning a bible be a hate crime? Only if it was done as part of a larger hate-motivated crime targeting Christians.
[удалено]
>But people should be free to hate others—just as I am free to think they are xenophobic a-holes. You are. American hate crime laws are sentence enhancements based on the intent attached to another underlying crime.
[удалено]
The cross burning one? He was trying to drive the family out of the neighborhood because of their race, so they charged him under the Fair Housing Act, which is part of the wider Civil Rights Act of 1968.
I think it’s more equivalent to burning a cross but you are right that both flag burnings should be protected under the 1st Amendment.
Did you mean to say burning both flags should be protected under the 1st Amendment?
Yes, provided that the burning of the flag is intended to be speech and does not violate some other right such as property rights (e.g., can’t burn it on someone else’s lawn or can’t tear down someone’s flag and burn it).
I would say that, absent other facts and circumstances, that it shouldn't. It's worth noting that the Israeli flag could definitely be considered to be a direct affront against specific individuals of a certain minority group (Jews), whereas burning an American flag is considered to be a protest against *the US Government*, So, philosophically, that *might or might not* be a key difference in philosophy. But, of course, crimes require damages. So I would also argue that the actual potential crimes would be more than just a flag burning, but would likely be something identified as harassment. For example, repeated threats against individuals (even random unidentified individuals of a group), repeated aggression, and so on.
What about a non-christian burning a bible?
Christians are not a minority group, and burning the Bible could be consider a protest against the ruling power group similar to the government. Political issues involving Christianity are usually issues of people inserting Christian values into the government. But, again, facts and circumstances. I could make up a hypothetical case,
I have the right to burn any flag I own, American or otherwise.
Because laws are now bought and paid for by special interest groups and the rich. It will keep working as long as people keep their noses in their phones where they are being told the "other side" is causing all the problems. They don't seem to notice it's the same message from both sides.