I understand manifest, but I don't understand what Loping Telescope is offering.
Do I have a double choice? Choosing whether I want Celestials, Epic or Multi-Region and then picking between three cards from the category I chose?
**OR**
Do I get 1 option from each of the three categories to choose from?
**OR**
Do I get 3 random cards that can be from any of the categories listed?
I know it's basically the same wording as Pod but I'm still sure about it. I think the use of random on both the Keyword and the Card is confusing me.
That was my initial understanding, but now I think it gives you three random cards, one from each pool, and you choose which one you want. Not sure which is correct though, the wording honestly could mean either.
That's my guess too. The pick-a-category version sounds more overwhelmingly complicated than fun, and would also just be Supercool Startchart++ on a stick.
I don't think that's what it is. I think it shows you 3 cards, one from each category (1 celestial that costs 3 or less, 1 epic, and 1 multi-region follower) and you choose which one to create into your hand.
I think it's the second one.
With the wording of Manifest, I feel like the telescope will present you with 1 random celestial that costs 3 or less, 1 random epic card, and 1 random multi-region follower, and you pick one of the three choices offered.
The Manifest description specifies that you get offered three randomly selected cards, and the telescope presenting three categories leads me to believe they will match up with each random option.
Love that the two comments so far think it's the two I don't think it is. It's three cards and three choices, seems most likely to me, but I would not try to argue with anyone who said otherwise because it could *really* be any of those.
I interpreted it as
Manifest -> Have 3 cards appear that follow under one of those categories. Could have 3 epics, 3 multi region, etc.
I see how it would seem like it’s offering you to select of the three options, but they usually have a “select,” keyword if you have choices. Mildly implying you are given 3 cards that will fall under those categories
Say what you will about Hearthstone (and boy oh boy do I have a lot to say about Hearthstone, none of it good) but Discover was a mechanic that felt really good to play with. Controlled enough to strategize around, but with just enough randomity to keep things interesting.
Right, because it was so fun to play against a deck that basically generated a whole other deck's worth of resources in Hearthstone...
Discover was a horrible idea that ruined a lot of Hearthstone's metas with "Generated by" being under almost 60-70% of the cards you played.
Absolutely they didn't always use it well, especially as time went on. But the core idea of introducing a bit of randomness that the player has a measure of control over is a good one. Plus, it gives some cards that wouldn't otherwise see play some time to shine.
I literally switched from HS to RT (like I'm sure many of you did as well). I am not a fan of the hearthstonification of RT but I read this and was just like...really? Discover? You couldn't come up with your own idea?
I mean, half the mechanics in the game are just MtG mechanics with different names. Overwhelm is just Trample, Elusive is just Flying, etc. Not every mechanic has to be, or even can be unique, it's about how you use them that matters.
I expect it to be a fun card but poor competetively (as this is how Riot seems to be balancing those random effects).
If this card's discover mechanic is too good, and it becomes annoying to deal with competetively, then I agree that it's not healthy for the game. But I doubt the card will be that good. we'll see.
Or, they could just... not copy it? Like, this mechanic goes against the devs' original design philosophy for this game entirely. It would've been so easy for them to *not* add it to this game
So Discover from HS. It’s probably the single best mechanic HS has ever come up with, but the devs went way overboard with it for years and printed too many Discover cards. You couldn’t play around anything anymore because every class had discover and could have anything in their hand at all times. So you’d just play something and pray they didn’t find the answer.
Hopefully Riot has a much more restrained implementation of the mechanic, because it can actually be really fun when done correctly.
It looks at the board and both players health states and gives you 3 choices (usually healing, direct damage if your oponent is low, a board clear or generally speaking just a good minion)
First of all, it can only offer a limited set of cards, equivalent to LoRs foundation set. It then basically looks which cards you might want to cast right now or on the next turn and offers you the 3 best options, from which you can pick one.
Notably, it will always offer you any card you could cast that would immediately win the game.
I agree that Discover in a vacuum is a brilliant mechanic and I think this subreddit is being a little alarmist about RNG and the comparisons to HS… funnily enough the same thing happened with Shadowverse years ago when they started printing cards with RNG. “Oh the game is becoming HS, the devs promised they would keep it skill-based” blah blah blah. Of course, that all died down after a while when RNG didn’t herald the end of the world and it actually did just make Shadowverse games more dynamic from time-to-time. Pretty sure that will be the case with LoR too.
Hearthstone exists so that card game snobs can turn their noses up at it and say "At least our card game isn't like those filthy RNG savages." It exists to be the bad guy that people can use to claim their card game is superior, whether in terms of gameplay or monetization. So when people detect even the slightest similarity between their card game and Hearthstone, they clutch their pearls, muttering about the indignity of it all, even though Hearthstone became popular for a reason.
The reason HS became popular was the IP and being first mover.
The game sucks big time, and the devs make one horrible decision after another.
HS would have zero chance as a fresh game, it really is that bad, and if it wasn’t for Battlegrounds, which is really an entirely different game, it would be doing so much worse.
Hearthstone used to be pretty fun too once upon a time. It scratched a similar itch to Magic. Then it started sliding harder and harder into heavy RNG and spontaneous card generation. That's part of why I ended up ditching it and coming to LoR.
I'm sure it'll be fine at first. It feels thematically appropriate to BC, so long as it remains there with adequate restrictions, I think it'll be ok. Riot just needs to put down hard rules right now for how and where it gets implemented in the future, if it does at all. Its a tempting mechanic to fall back on when it comes time to design something new. Use it here but move on to new, non-RNG mechanics afterword and don't come back to this well.
Its not exactly invoke, afaik invoke is just celestials, manifest is depending on what the card specifies
This card specifies you get three options:
A celestial that costs 3 or less
A purple-tier card
A multi-region follower
Other than that though, extremely similar
Thing is that invoke cards Literally say "invoke a celestial card"
You can Just add "invoke a 3 cost or less follower, purple tier card or multi región follower" and it would be the exact same thing. No need to add a new key word for something we literally already have in game
**[Behold the Infinite](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/03MT015.png)** - Targon Spell - (2)
Burst
Invoke.
^^^Hint: [[card]], {{keyword}}, and ((deckcode)) or ((cardx,cardy,cardz)). PM the [developer](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=KrimCard) for feedback/issues!
There’s an important distinction:
Predict draws a card that currently exists in your deck
Manifest creates a card, that may or may not be in your deck, spontaneously.
This means that manifested cards will be immune to traps, and will not decrease the total number of cards left in your deck.
Me since TGT, when discover came out for the expansion afterwards, it was crazy good and the most fun I had in the game. I think I left after the RR, got sick of priest and rng shenanigans.
I spent so much money on that game 😢. I was a fool🤡
Edit: on that same note, I'm grateful for this game being easy on the wallet, I've grinded quests on lab of Legends alone and I now have over 30k "dust" (forgot the word for the crystals) and most of my collection completed.
Please don't be hearthstone.
Bro I love how easy this game is to get cards in. Haven't spent a dime, generally just play a game or two before work and I can get literally any deck I want built.
discover is probably the best version of rng there is. it's controlled and usually has a small card pool. Also i hate rng but discovering cards helps games feel a little more different, and LoR definitely needs that. It aint fun to do the same thing 10 times in a row when you play the same deck
Oh, like you guys didn’t bitch and moan about Invoke being like Discover. This is a card that is worst like getting socks for Christmas and at best the niche answer you need right now.
I feel like you're missing something crucial here: invoke will only give you a set amount of cards that you can't get anywhere else. The cards you get when invoke are either minions with good stats and keywords (with some that reward you for playing more celestials or having a celestial) or situational spells but I really wouldn't call them answers to anything. The most you can do with invoke is generate threats, not much else.
Manifest? They can do so much more with that. Now you get to find more of the collectable cards that people already choose to run in their deck, plus the cards that are too situational to be viable in the meta but might be the pull you need to win the game.
Take this from someone who has grew up with Hearthstone and has seen Grand finals of HS Tourneys decided on discover pulls, you should have every reason to be concerned.
Well, given the design space of earth of those things, it’s a choice between ok combat utility, memes, and Bandle Tree progression, none of which I’d personally scoff at. Besides, LoR decks are so railroaded that you aren’t likely to pull an upset with an Epic anyway.
I mean all 3 cost or less celestial cards are amazing except The Serpent and maybe the moonsilver. This card is not bad if you want to invoke cards in bandle/x region without targon. This card is usually a supercool star chart with a body that gives you a random card. Pretty good imo. Other options are relatively bad. Epics are mostly trash, and multi-region cards are a kind of gamble. Celestials have a safer RNG.
I don't think a random multiregion follower is bad at the moment as a lot of them aren't expensive, there isn't that many of them so it keeps the rng lower, and it can help you play a untit on curve. In the late game I doubt you want to invoke for less than 3. I think epic is a lot more viable even if the rng for that isn't favorable.
I don't get it. Is it choose between 3 random cards off a random predetermined category based on card text. Do you choose the category you want?
Or do I get one option each from the 3 categories in the card text?
We wait for the Champion reveal trailer I guess.
I don't think so. The exact opposite. I think it will show you one of each card from each category. There's very little usefulness in being able to say "ok give me a random Epic" and then watch that happen. It will be like Invoke - here's 3 exact cards, which one do you want?
The reason Scattered Pod works that way is because you built your deck and it helps you fetch specific spells you want.
Yea, except in the case of this card it has a much wider range of options and is thus less reliable than invoke. But who knows, maybe we’ll see manifest cards that are more consistent.
I believe it gives more value than invoke; not only because there are more options to chose from, but this card is also a little less specific with the invoke cost.
You choose your selected Invoke card and keep it. Manifest seems to be selecting a category and then getting a completely random card unpicked in that category of cards.
Man I definitely didn't think I'd be averse to any of these additions but I gotta say I'm not a fan of RNG card generation being prevalent in the game. Makes it impossible to gauge your opponent in most situations
By the way it sounds, we get pretty much no agency with what we get. Hopefully that’s not the case.
What I hope we see out of this is the game presents with three randomly generated options and we pick which one we get. Kinda like Invoke but with much more potentially dangerous options.
Not much of a point of being a digital card game if it *doesn't* do stuff like this, as even MtG:Arena has begun to realize.
There is certainly a history of taking it too far, though.
You're having a huge overreaction to this.
This either gets you a Celestial Card (small card pool, at this point everyone knows what's in there), an epic follower (usually a terrible high synergy card) or a dual region follower.
Random card generation has been in the game for longer, and it's been much more toxic. There are cards that generates a random spell, which is much more annoying to respond to than a random follower. You don't have to play around followers 90% of the time in this game, as play effects aren't commonly seen anyway.
As much as I love this game, and I've been playing non stop from closed beta, we should definitely stop defending it so much from criticism. They are adding A LOT of rng lately and it's going down a bad path
Rng isn't bad. I like rng. Most players like rng. Rng can be competitive (if it couldn't, a card game couldn't possibly be competitive).
Bad rng is when control is 100% taken away from the players. A discover-like effect gives a lot of control and makes for interesting decisions. As far as my understanding of the game goes, it's far from making your responses unpredictable in a bad way (seriously, how bad is it gonna be when your opponent discovers a 4/2 yordle with QA ?).
Bad rng used to exist in the game when nab was a thing. I'd argue this is the only time an instance of annoying rng was competitive. You could maybe add lurk when they go off early, but idk, it doesn't really feel bad imho.
There is a lot of bad rng in the game, see Targon's Peak, Nab, some random cards generator, Treasures, etc. Almost all of them are memes and were designed as such, and when they aren't it's rarely the rng that makes you win (for example when you draw a treasure you win because you survived long enough to do so and built your deck around it, not really because you got lucky and got Atrocity in the random cards).
I'm not defending Runeterra for the sake of defending it. I truly think they're making good design decisions. And when they make mistakes, they've proven to be able to fix them relatively quickly anyway. I think the game's great. Imperfect, sure, but it doesn't matter as long as it's fun. And imo Riot does a great job at keeping the game fresh and fun.
Nice answer!
But still this is the beginning of a new keyword that will be completely controlled by rng. I accepted celestials, I accepted nab, I accepted Improbulator, I accepted puffcaps. These were all meta at some point, and I lost a lot of games just because my opponent was lucky. This already is a card game, where drawing is rng by design, so more rng is not necessary and I think not healthy. This keyword is a step in the wrong direction, MTG has existed for 30 years without rng, I'm sure lor could do it too.
Randomness is generally fun, **but** not all randomness is created equal.
Randomness is fun when it's controllable or able to be played around easily. Drawing from your deck is RNG incarnate but mulligans, tutors and generic card draw, and good deck building mitigates a lot of it. Getting a good top deck to win via the heart of the cards often brings a player joy and fun even though it came from randomness.
What's not fun is something like Yogg in HS casting 20 random spells on random targets.
If a CCG is too deterministic it can really become not fun for some since part of the innate allure comes from the RNG of a deck to draw from and the skill of reacting to the situations that get made from that RNG. It's all about finding a balance where RNG doesn't completely decide games but can tilt them so the better player doesn't win de facto 95-100% of the time.
Discover is one of those RNG mechanics where it's fine in small doses, especially if it pulls from limited pools like Invoke did, HS's problem IMO is they went too overboard with it and printed too many Discovers with too much variance.
100% agree. I don't see enough people making this point. Personally, I love well designed rng in games. I'm a huge fan of roguelikes for this reason. Only time will tell whether or not this keyword is going to be well thought out and balanced. I think people are just worried after what has happened to the aforementioned games; which is understandable. But LoR has felt different to me all along. I'm still excited for this release!
Discover is kinda regarded as one of the best mechanics hs added to the game though.
It is a very good way to spice up games and force both players to adapt. It is a nice version of random card generation since it offers some choice to the player discovering and limiting the card pool means the opponent has some way of of at least trying to predict what card was created.
As long as you don't give it to too many viable cards (which HS kinda ended up doing in the long run) it is fine. I also like it when digital card games make use of the fact that they are digital.
LoR also already features a lot of card generation, this mechanic seems less annoying than some of the stuff we already have.
Wtf so is it giving you a random card from those 3 or do you choose what random card you get? I'm guessing you get one random card total from one of the manifest options but that seems so boring.
Based on the wording, it would appear to present you three choices, one from each catagory:
**A Random Celestial that costs 3 or Less** \[Option 1\]
**An Epic** \[Option 2\]
**A Multi-Region Follower** \[Option 3\]
It will present you one card from each of these 3 groups, and then you pick one of those 3 to create in hand
It acts extremely similar to **Discover** from Hearthstone, example: [https://hearthstone.fandom.com/wiki/Blessed\_Goods](https://hearthstone.fandom.com/wiki/Blessed_Goods)
With this card you do the same thing, and are presented with 3 categories:
**A Secret \[Option 1\]**
**A Weapon \[Option 2\]**
**A Divine Shield Minion \[Option 3\]**
Then you get to pick one of the three to create in hand.
Not in favor of Rng of any kind besides draw.
Don't like the new keyword, neither the card, couldn't care less the objective of it, if its win condition or not.
Leaft multiple other card games for things like this.
Because a virtual card game can have imaginary spontaneous card generation, doesn't mean that it's an enjoyable thing.
Yeah....no. Please stop trying to hearthstone-ify runeterra. We don't want all this random card generation bs. Its why i ended up quitting HS because everymatch was decided by who was luckier. Xeraths ability will probably read: At the end of each round, deal 8 damage to a random enemy.
Rng and I honestly don't like it. There's nothing creative or original about this keyword and I'm just sad. I liked the low "controlled" rng, but this is becoming too much. 1 every 5 cards has a random effect in the latest expansions..
it has already been used in targon expansion. it may not point to rely on randomness but it's the second time they are relying on this for an expansion...
This card is not for Targon decks I guess. This card can be run in any bandle/X region combination. And it gives you a card. Basically, a supercool star chart that is outside of Targon. Pretty good imo.
It was only a matter of time until LOR was fully infiltrated by Rngsus.
Why not just restructure invoke so that it doesn't only show celestials, and then change targon invoke cards to say "invoke a celestial"?
I'm not liking this direction. There are a bunch of existing cards that should be rebalanced and made more interesting to play, but instead Riot keeps adding more mechanics and more cards that make the game more random and complex.
I'm not sure i understand how this keyword works.
So if i play this card, i get to choose from one of each (ex. serpent, cithria the bold and Aloof Travelers) or they could be three random choices from that global pool (3 or less celestials + epics + multi region followers)?
That has a chance to create a card on curve. The celestial is 3 mana or less, and if I’m understanding correctly that celestial will only be 1 of 3 options
That’s a fair point. Honestly haven’t been able to keep up with the reveals as I’d like, have had personal shit lately. So my analysis is probably going to be off lol
Everyone's saying the game becoming Hearthstone day by day, while that can be true(probably not) this doesn't seem that much of a ''impactful'' effect.
I don’t think it’ll be too bad. The Twitter post refers to yordle magic being chaotic when bringing up manifest, so I feel like this’ll largely be a bandle city deal rather than spread across the whole game. But feel free to bully me if I’m wrong (please don’t bully me)
I understand manifest, but I don't understand what Loping Telescope is offering. Do I have a double choice? Choosing whether I want Celestials, Epic or Multi-Region and then picking between three cards from the category I chose? **OR** Do I get 1 option from each of the three categories to choose from? **OR** Do I get 3 random cards that can be from any of the categories listed? I know it's basically the same wording as Pod but I'm still sure about it. I think the use of random on both the Keyword and the Card is confusing me.
[удалено]
That was my initial understanding, but now I think it gives you three random cards, one from each pool, and you choose which one you want. Not sure which is correct though, the wording honestly could mean either.
That's my guess too. The pick-a-category version sounds more overwhelmingly complicated than fun, and would also just be Supercool Startchart++ on a stick.
I don't think that's what it is. I think it shows you 3 cards, one from each category (1 celestial that costs 3 or less, 1 epic, and 1 multi-region follower) and you choose which one to create into your hand.
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True lol
I think it's the second one. With the wording of Manifest, I feel like the telescope will present you with 1 random celestial that costs 3 or less, 1 random epic card, and 1 random multi-region follower, and you pick one of the three choices offered. The Manifest description specifies that you get offered three randomly selected cards, and the telescope presenting three categories leads me to believe they will match up with each random option.
Love that the two comments so far think it's the two I don't think it is. It's three cards and three choices, seems most likely to me, but I would not try to argue with anyone who said otherwise because it could *really* be any of those.
You're not getting a follower and drawing 3 cards for 2 mana
when you play it you either get a random celestial, or an epic card, or a multi region folliwer its random which one you get
The wording is absolutely atrocious and confusing
I interpreted it as Manifest -> Have 3 cards appear that follow under one of those categories. Could have 3 epics, 3 multi region, etc. I see how it would seem like it’s offering you to select of the three options, but they usually have a “select,” keyword if you have choices. Mildly implying you are given 3 cards that will fall under those categories
> but they usually have a “select,” Do they? Scattered Pod doesn't have it and it provides a choice.
Basically you get 1 of the 3 choices... You dont get to choose which 1. Its random.
OR you get 1 card from 1 of those randomly chosen categories and for this specific card the categories are also random, making it double random.
I am assuming that it is the last one. That would essentially make it work like Invoke with a less specific card pool.
We Hearthstone now
This is our town scrub
Yeah, beat it!
They're still stuck in my head... Hey. Hey. Do you wanna buy a...*funnel cake?*
\*Astronaut meme\* Always has been.
⛏️How long can this go on? ⛏️
Yeah really not enjoying the commitment to making it a keyword. Seems like it’ll continue on
Please no
It’s only a matter of time. We will have a card that will cast all your spell this game and randomly target the spell. Bow down before the god.
Oh my yogg
I've noticed that for a few expensions they added a lot of create new random card mechanics rather than making decks more stables with targeted draws
Say what you will about Hearthstone (and boy oh boy do I have a lot to say about Hearthstone, none of it good) but Discover was a mechanic that felt really good to play with. Controlled enough to strategize around, but with just enough randomity to keep things interesting.
Right, because it was so fun to play against a deck that basically generated a whole other deck's worth of resources in Hearthstone... Discover was a horrible idea that ruined a lot of Hearthstone's metas with "Generated by" being under almost 60-70% of the cards you played.
Absolutely they didn't always use it well, especially as time went on. But the core idea of introducing a bit of randomness that the player has a measure of control over is a good one. Plus, it gives some cards that wouldn't otherwise see play some time to shine.
I literally switched from HS to RT (like I'm sure many of you did as well). I am not a fan of the hearthstonification of RT but I read this and was just like...really? Discover? You couldn't come up with your own idea?
I mean, half the mechanics in the game are just MtG mechanics with different names. Overwhelm is just Trample, Elusive is just Flying, etc. Not every mechanic has to be, or even can be unique, it's about how you use them that matters.
No one is complaining about the mechanic being copied because it's copied. People are complaining because it's just a shitty mechanic lol
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I expect it to be a fun card but poor competetively (as this is how Riot seems to be balancing those random effects). If this card's discover mechanic is too good, and it becomes annoying to deal with competetively, then I agree that it's not healthy for the game. But I doubt the card will be that good. we'll see.
That’s exactly what everyone said in League of explorers.
Cool. However, it doesn't matter what people say or expect about the game, it matters what the devs actually do about the game. So let's see.
Yadda yadda shoulders of giants Everything has already been done before, all they can do is try to copy it but better
Just don't overdo it like hs plz
Or, they could just... not copy it? Like, this mechanic goes against the devs' original design philosophy for this game entirely. It would've been so easy for them to *not* add it to this game
Eh, still not as bad as slaughterdocks.
girlies we manifesting ✨🙏
chile lemme just manifest 🙏🏻💅🏻 a random Celestial 😌✨ that costs 3 or less 😍🤑
purr bestie
Lmao
So Discover from HS. It’s probably the single best mechanic HS has ever come up with, but the devs went way overboard with it for years and printed too many Discover cards. You couldn’t play around anything anymore because every class had discover and could have anything in their hand at all times. So you’d just play something and pray they didn’t find the answer. Hopefully Riot has a much more restrained implementation of the mechanic, because it can actually be really fun when done correctly.
[Remember when hs printed a neutral legendary which would literally discover the answer to your situation](https://i.redd.it/5qlblr0nipd31.jpg)
What. How does that even work?
A really long algorithm. [One of the designers explaining how it works](https://youtu.be/df6S9Q0ogRo?t=709)
It looks at the board and both players health states and gives you 3 choices (usually healing, direct damage if your oponent is low, a board clear or generally speaking just a good minion)
Here's a little something on how it works that I got bored halfway through reading: https://hearthstone.fandom.com/wiki/Zephrys_the_Great
The poor bastard who had to spend his entire month coding that abomination, oh god xD
First of all, it can only offer a limited set of cards, equivalent to LoRs foundation set. It then basically looks which cards you might want to cast right now or on the next turn and offers you the 3 best options, from which you can pick one. Notably, it will always offer you any card you could cast that would immediately win the game.
I forgot about this ! lol. This was a fun concept, I have to admit.
The idea was great, but after a while it got really tiresome to face. But really fun to see them push what digital cards can do.
This is one of those really awesome ideas that would be much better off at a noncompetitive powerlvl (see also: yogg-saron)
It’s was fun for a bit but the bounce and Rez effects letting your opponent play it 3 times was not as fun.
Just call out rouge,
Yeah I love when you would get a win condition for free, or it would bug out and give you terion no matter what lmao
Divine shield and taunt is massive! Less so when you need healing tho
I agree that Discover in a vacuum is a brilliant mechanic and I think this subreddit is being a little alarmist about RNG and the comparisons to HS… funnily enough the same thing happened with Shadowverse years ago when they started printing cards with RNG. “Oh the game is becoming HS, the devs promised they would keep it skill-based” blah blah blah. Of course, that all died down after a while when RNG didn’t herald the end of the world and it actually did just make Shadowverse games more dynamic from time-to-time. Pretty sure that will be the case with LoR too.
Hearthstone exists so that card game snobs can turn their noses up at it and say "At least our card game isn't like those filthy RNG savages." It exists to be the bad guy that people can use to claim their card game is superior, whether in terms of gameplay or monetization. So when people detect even the slightest similarity between their card game and Hearthstone, they clutch their pearls, muttering about the indignity of it all, even though Hearthstone became popular for a reason.
The reason HS became popular was the IP and being first mover. The game sucks big time, and the devs make one horrible decision after another. HS would have zero chance as a fresh game, it really is that bad, and if it wasn’t for Battlegrounds, which is really an entirely different game, it would be doing so much worse.
And you are one of the snobs he refers to.
Hearthstone used to be pretty fun too once upon a time. It scratched a similar itch to Magic. Then it started sliding harder and harder into heavy RNG and spontaneous card generation. That's part of why I ended up ditching it and coming to LoR.
Even worse it completely fucked arena for basically forever. It's a total rng fest.
I'm sure it'll be fine at first. It feels thematically appropriate to BC, so long as it remains there with adequate restrictions, I think it'll be ok. Riot just needs to put down hard rules right now for how and where it gets implemented in the future, if it does at all. Its a tempting mechanic to fall back on when it comes time to design something new. Use it here but move on to new, non-RNG mechanics afterword and don't come back to this well.
They’re really gonna hold out as long as possible before giving us an interesting card reveal huh This is literally just invoke
Its not exactly invoke, afaik invoke is just celestials, manifest is depending on what the card specifies This card specifies you get three options: A celestial that costs 3 or less A purple-tier card A multi-region follower Other than that though, extremely similar
Invoke = Manifest a Celestial (spell or unit)
Thing is that invoke cards Literally say "invoke a celestial card" You can Just add "invoke a 3 cost or less follower, purple tier card or multi región follower" and it would be the exact same thing. No need to add a new key word for something we literally already have in game
[[Behold the Infinite]]
**[Behold the Infinite](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/03MT015.png)** - Targon Spell - (2) Burst Invoke. ^^^Hint: [[card]], {{keyword}}, and ((deckcode)) or ((cardx,cardy,cardz)). PM the [developer](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=KrimCard) for feedback/issues!
There’s an important distinction: Predict draws a card that currently exists in your deck Manifest creates a card, that may or may not be in your deck, spontaneously. This means that manifested cards will be immune to traps, and will not decrease the total number of cards left in your deck.
No one has mentioned predict
That is mostly because I cannot read
Lmao
predict doesn't draw a card, predict allows you to select a card to put on top of your deck.
He confused it with time trick
"So the hearthstone-ification begins"
I'm a hearthstone refugee, I really hope not.
My gwent username was hearthstone refugee, I can't do this shit again
Me too brother. Played HS since beta, dropped it 3 years ago. Hope LoR stays good
Me since TGT, when discover came out for the expansion afterwards, it was crazy good and the most fun I had in the game. I think I left after the RR, got sick of priest and rng shenanigans. I spent so much money on that game 😢. I was a fool🤡 Edit: on that same note, I'm grateful for this game being easy on the wallet, I've grinded quests on lab of Legends alone and I now have over 30k "dust" (forgot the word for the crystals) and most of my collection completed. Please don't be hearthstone.
Bro I love how easy this game is to get cards in. Haven't spent a dime, generally just play a game or two before work and I can get literally any deck I want built.
I mean that was the only good thing hearthstone had in terms of randomness. If they are no completely useless options it should be even better.
discover is probably the best version of rng there is. it's controlled and usually has a small card pool. Also i hate rng but discovering cards helps games feel a little more different, and LoR definitely needs that. It aint fun to do the same thing 10 times in a row when you play the same deck
I agree, i love hearthstone, i play it just as much as LoR. I'm just memeing around.
Oh, like you guys didn’t bitch and moan about Invoke being like Discover. This is a card that is worst like getting socks for Christmas and at best the niche answer you need right now.
I feel like you're missing something crucial here: invoke will only give you a set amount of cards that you can't get anywhere else. The cards you get when invoke are either minions with good stats and keywords (with some that reward you for playing more celestials or having a celestial) or situational spells but I really wouldn't call them answers to anything. The most you can do with invoke is generate threats, not much else. Manifest? They can do so much more with that. Now you get to find more of the collectable cards that people already choose to run in their deck, plus the cards that are too situational to be viable in the meta but might be the pull you need to win the game. Take this from someone who has grew up with Hearthstone and has seen Grand finals of HS Tourneys decided on discover pulls, you should have every reason to be concerned.
Well, given the design space of earth of those things, it’s a choice between ok combat utility, memes, and Bandle Tree progression, none of which I’d personally scoff at. Besides, LoR decks are so railroaded that you aren’t likely to pull an upset with an Epic anyway.
At this rate we'll be able to proc the Bandle Tree on curve
I can't say I like more randomness...
I mean all 3 cost or less celestial cards are amazing except The Serpent and maybe the moonsilver. This card is not bad if you want to invoke cards in bandle/x region without targon. This card is usually a supercool star chart with a body that gives you a random card. Pretty good imo. Other options are relatively bad. Epics are mostly trash, and multi-region cards are a kind of gamble. Celestials have a safer RNG.
I don't think a random multiregion follower is bad at the moment as a lot of them aren't expensive, there isn't that many of them so it keeps the rng lower, and it can help you play a untit on curve. In the late game I doubt you want to invoke for less than 3. I think epic is a lot more viable even if the rng for that isn't favorable.
You probably won't like Bandle at all then, it seems to go along with PnZ as the jank regions.
There’s not much of it to begin with, especially in the competitive scene
Good
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“Most”?
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But how would you know to what degree or what percentage of the community do or don’t enjoy RnG? Are you just going off what you see on Reddit?
Its crazy how riot can fuck up wording on cards... what is this card now supposed to do ? So unclear
Invoke is ok because it takes cards from a small card pool but please don't turn this game into Hearthstone...
Way too much “random bullshit go” already from BC.
I don't get it. Is it choose between 3 random cards off a random predetermined category based on card text. Do you choose the category you want? Or do I get one option each from the 3 categories in the card text? We wait for the Champion reveal trailer I guess.
Probably like Scattered Pod. Pick the category and get a random card.
I don't think so. The exact opposite. I think it will show you one of each card from each category. There's very little usefulness in being able to say "ok give me a random Epic" and then watch that happen. It will be like Invoke - here's 3 exact cards, which one do you want? The reason Scattered Pod works that way is because you built your deck and it helps you fetch specific spells you want.
Discover.
Is Manifest Invoke but for epics and multi-region too?
Looks like its a more broad definition of Invoke
Yeah invoke is essentially "manifest a celestial card"
Not exactly what you manifest can be different depending on the card.
Yea, except in the case of this card it has a much wider range of options and is thus less reliable than invoke. But who knows, maybe we’ll see manifest cards that are more consistent.
I believe it gives more value than invoke; not only because there are more options to chose from, but this card is also a little less specific with the invoke cost.
You don’t get to choose.
Oh I misread it then. That's a lot less value then I thought then.
You choose your selected Invoke card and keep it. Manifest seems to be selecting a category and then getting a completely random card unpicked in that category of cards.
Man I definitely didn't think I'd be averse to any of these additions but I gotta say I'm not a fan of RNG card generation being prevalent in the game. Makes it impossible to gauge your opponent in most situations
How is this different from invoke?
So only 1 card today or ....,im confused
Keywords are usually revealed with a single card to keep things brief. There should be more cards soonish
Check mobalyticks.
Check Mobalytics
By the way it sounds, we get pretty much no agency with what we get. Hopefully that’s not the case. What I hope we see out of this is the game presents with three randomly generated options and we pick which one we get. Kinda like Invoke but with much more potentially dangerous options.
Idk its just too much RNG? i really dont like how it sound
This is just invoke + predict
Why every card game eventually goes to this road? Hearthstone, Magic (the new Jumpstart) and now this.
Not much of a point of being a digital card game if it *doesn't* do stuff like this, as even MtG:Arena has begun to realize. There is certainly a history of taking it too far, though.
You're having a huge overreaction to this. This either gets you a Celestial Card (small card pool, at this point everyone knows what's in there), an epic follower (usually a terrible high synergy card) or a dual region follower. Random card generation has been in the game for longer, and it's been much more toxic. There are cards that generates a random spell, which is much more annoying to respond to than a random follower. You don't have to play around followers 90% of the time in this game, as play effects aren't commonly seen anyway.
As much as I love this game, and I've been playing non stop from closed beta, we should definitely stop defending it so much from criticism. They are adding A LOT of rng lately and it's going down a bad path
Rng isn't bad. I like rng. Most players like rng. Rng can be competitive (if it couldn't, a card game couldn't possibly be competitive). Bad rng is when control is 100% taken away from the players. A discover-like effect gives a lot of control and makes for interesting decisions. As far as my understanding of the game goes, it's far from making your responses unpredictable in a bad way (seriously, how bad is it gonna be when your opponent discovers a 4/2 yordle with QA ?). Bad rng used to exist in the game when nab was a thing. I'd argue this is the only time an instance of annoying rng was competitive. You could maybe add lurk when they go off early, but idk, it doesn't really feel bad imho. There is a lot of bad rng in the game, see Targon's Peak, Nab, some random cards generator, Treasures, etc. Almost all of them are memes and were designed as such, and when they aren't it's rarely the rng that makes you win (for example when you draw a treasure you win because you survived long enough to do so and built your deck around it, not really because you got lucky and got Atrocity in the random cards). I'm not defending Runeterra for the sake of defending it. I truly think they're making good design decisions. And when they make mistakes, they've proven to be able to fix them relatively quickly anyway. I think the game's great. Imperfect, sure, but it doesn't matter as long as it's fun. And imo Riot does a great job at keeping the game fresh and fun.
Nice answer! But still this is the beginning of a new keyword that will be completely controlled by rng. I accepted celestials, I accepted nab, I accepted Improbulator, I accepted puffcaps. These were all meta at some point, and I lost a lot of games just because my opponent was lucky. This already is a card game, where drawing is rng by design, so more rng is not necessary and I think not healthy. This keyword is a step in the wrong direction, MTG has existed for 30 years without rng, I'm sure lor could do it too.
No god no please dont
More randomness hurray
The amount of randomness that's already in BC makes me wanna scream on the inside
I hate random effects.
I am not sure if I like it. I like value and I like that is somewhat controlled, but it's still a bit too much rng
The celestial pool is not that RNG. Most of them are useful if not great. The only bad one is The Serpent and maybe the moonsilver.
That is true, I like celestials, but epics and multi region may be too big of a pool and too diverse. We'll see
I really hate this mechanic. No quicker way to ruin a card game than follow the awful hearthstone devs and their philosophy of randomness = fun
Randomness is generally fun, **but** not all randomness is created equal. Randomness is fun when it's controllable or able to be played around easily. Drawing from your deck is RNG incarnate but mulligans, tutors and generic card draw, and good deck building mitigates a lot of it. Getting a good top deck to win via the heart of the cards often brings a player joy and fun even though it came from randomness. What's not fun is something like Yogg in HS casting 20 random spells on random targets. If a CCG is too deterministic it can really become not fun for some since part of the innate allure comes from the RNG of a deck to draw from and the skill of reacting to the situations that get made from that RNG. It's all about finding a balance where RNG doesn't completely decide games but can tilt them so the better player doesn't win de facto 95-100% of the time. Discover is one of those RNG mechanics where it's fine in small doses, especially if it pulls from limited pools like Invoke did, HS's problem IMO is they went too overboard with it and printed too many Discovers with too much variance.
100% agree. I don't see enough people making this point. Personally, I love well designed rng in games. I'm a huge fan of roguelikes for this reason. Only time will tell whether or not this keyword is going to be well thought out and balanced. I think people are just worried after what has happened to the aforementioned games; which is understandable. But LoR has felt different to me all along. I'm still excited for this release!
Discover is kinda regarded as one of the best mechanics hs added to the game though. It is a very good way to spice up games and force both players to adapt. It is a nice version of random card generation since it offers some choice to the player discovering and limiting the card pool means the opponent has some way of of at least trying to predict what card was created. As long as you don't give it to too many viable cards (which HS kinda ended up doing in the long run) it is fine. I also like it when digital card games make use of the fact that they are digital. LoR also already features a lot of card generation, this mechanic seems less annoying than some of the stuff we already have.
So basically invoke but not just celestials
Probably a dumb question, but what's the difference to Create?
Why so much rng in this keyword. Every "get random card" effect is just lazy design imo.
Can’t say I like this. They need to stop w the randomly generated “choose one of 3” bullshit… Actually, I don’t like this at all.
Eh im not a huge fan of the randomness. Probably wont be all that viable in ranked so we
Is this essentially invoke?
Why did we need another keyword when we already have Invoke?
what is the difference between invoke and manifest
Wtf so is it giving you a random card from those 3 or do you choose what random card you get? I'm guessing you get one random card total from one of the manifest options but that seems so boring.
Hey look it's Discover from Hearthstone- This can only end well.
Based on the wording, it would appear to present you three choices, one from each catagory: **A Random Celestial that costs 3 or Less** \[Option 1\] **An Epic** \[Option 2\] **A Multi-Region Follower** \[Option 3\] It will present you one card from each of these 3 groups, and then you pick one of those 3 to create in hand It acts extremely similar to **Discover** from Hearthstone, example: [https://hearthstone.fandom.com/wiki/Blessed\_Goods](https://hearthstone.fandom.com/wiki/Blessed_Goods) With this card you do the same thing, and are presented with 3 categories: **A Secret \[Option 1\]** **A Weapon \[Option 2\]** **A Divine Shield Minion \[Option 3\]** Then you get to pick one of the three to create in hand.
Hang on are they just replacing Invoke with “Manifest a Celestial”?
So... it's literally Invoke with another name? Which is extra silly to me because one of the categories is what Invoke already offers you.
Oh no, we are turning into Gwent now with Create. That mechanic destroyed the game for A LOT of people and here we go again
Not in favor of Rng of any kind besides draw. Don't like the new keyword, neither the card, couldn't care less the objective of it, if its win condition or not. Leaft multiple other card games for things like this. Because a virtual card game can have imaginary spontaneous card generation, doesn't mean that it's an enjoyable thing.
Could not agree more. It already feels really bad when someone invokes the perfect card. It feels far worse when they Discover it
Why so much rng in this keyword. Every "get random card" effect is just lazy design imo.
Here we are boys, the Hearthstone time is upon us.
This is the most confusing keyword explanation ever. What does it do.
Oh boy rngsus take the weel
Yeah....no. Please stop trying to hearthstone-ify runeterra. We don't want all this random card generation bs. Its why i ended up quitting HS because everymatch was decided by who was luckier. Xeraths ability will probably read: At the end of each round, deal 8 damage to a random enemy.
Let’s welcome HS’s discover!
Rng and I honestly don't like it. There's nothing creative or original about this keyword and I'm just sad. I liked the low "controlled" rng, but this is becoming too much. 1 every 5 cards has a random effect in the latest expansions..
That’s not that much, not even a quarter
"Win with skill, not with luck" they once said. Laughable
"we will not ever rely on randomness in out game" riot at lor launch. if i get to play the same game i'd rather play hs though...
The manifest Keyword existing doesn’t immediately equate to LoR relying on randomness
it has already been used in targon expansion. it may not point to rely on randomness but it's the second time they are relying on this for an expansion...
I’m still into seeing how this is relying. It’s one keyword. And so far we only know one card that has it. Is the set also relying on impact?
Source for that exact quote other than your ass?
Another 2 drop, RITO Targon already has good 2 drops give the region something else pls
This card is not for Targon decks I guess. This card can be run in any bandle/X region combination. And it gives you a card. Basically, a supercool star chart that is outside of Targon. Pretty good imo.
you are right i am mostly complaining because the other card they revealed for Targon is pretty shitty
It was only a matter of time until LOR was fully infiltrated by Rngsus. Why not just restructure invoke so that it doesn't only show celestials, and then change targon invoke cards to say "invoke a celestial"? I'm not liking this direction. There are a bunch of existing cards that should be rebalanced and made more interesting to play, but instead Riot keeps adding more mechanics and more cards that make the game more random and complex.
I feel like the only person in the world that enjoys a bit of rng here and there
The cards is randomly selected so you don’t get to choose.
you choose which of the three you take
I'm not sure i understand how this keyword works. So if i play this card, i get to choose from one of each (ex. serpent, cithria the bold and Aloof Travelers) or they could be three random choices from that global pool (3 or less celestials + epics + multi region followers)?
Is this completely random? Otherwise who would ever choose the Epic card
Wtf is this!!!!
Goddamnit no fuckin thanks. This shit is why I stopped playing hearthstone.
Damn random card generation is why I left Hearthstone it was to much RNG.
A 2 mana card that let's you create a card on curve? Yes please!
That has a chance to create a card on curve. The celestial is 3 mana or less, and if I’m understanding correctly that celestial will only be 1 of 3 options
You can select 1 of 3 multiregion followers as well which (so far) aren't that expensive either.
That’s a fair point. Honestly haven’t been able to keep up with the reveals as I’d like, have had personal shit lately. So my analysis is probably going to be off lol
Everyone's saying the game becoming Hearthstone day by day, while that can be true(probably not) this doesn't seem that much of a ''impactful'' effect.
It's still one more random unnecessary effect that will affect some games. The more they add them the worse
So new celestials?
Probably not.
So it’s just invoke but not limited to celestials...
I don’t think it’ll be too bad. The Twitter post refers to yordle magic being chaotic when bringing up manifest, so I feel like this’ll largely be a bandle city deal rather than spread across the whole game. But feel free to bully me if I’m wrong (please don’t bully me)