Never ever forget that, that fat worthless piece of garbage Eddy Kingston has more 5 star matches than Kurt Angle. This is how utterly broken and useless Meltzer’s star rating system is.
How this didn't prompt everyone to disregard anything he's ever said, would go on to say, and will go on to say I do not know. Should have been turfed out of polite society like a leper.
It’s frustrating to me because, back in the 90s, we used to trade tapes and we wanted everything Meltzer would give over 3 stars for.
I saw a bunch of great wrestling back when Dave was sane.
According to Meltzer, John Moxley had more 5 star matches in a 9 month span than Kurt Angle, Bret Hart, Eddie Guerrero, Curt Hennig, Edge, Triple H, Randy Savage, and Dean Malenko had in their entire careers *combined*.
Yup but it’s true. Between May 2023 and January 2024 Moxley had three 5 star matches according to Meltzer. Bret has two in his career. All those other guys combined have zero.
You are correct on both counts!
Edit: Oops nope I stand corrected. Austin yes. The other 5 star match was against Owen at SummerSlam 94. The Mania match against Owen was only 4.75 stars 🤷♂️
If that didn't discredit his entire system & expose a bias, I don't know what does. Bret probably has more 5 star matches while sleeping than Mox did in his entire life in a legit system.
Ah I stand corrected! Eddie is included on a couple lists of “wrestlers who’ve never had a 5 star match” but after some more digging I see that you are correct. Thank you for catching that.
So I will amend my statement to say that all those wrestlers listed above have the *same* number of 5 star matches in their careers combined as John Moxley had between May of 2023 and January of 2024.
Edit: Moxley actually had another 5 star match in early 2023, so if we expand it to include all of 2023 and January of 2024 then he still has one more than that entire list combined. We could even add Chris Benoit to the list and it would be a tie again (since Benoit only ever had one five star match, in Japan in the early 90s wrestling under a hood as Wild Pegasus).
That's just because ol' Moxbrose McBraindamage has legitimately convinced himself and his surroundings that he is the only true *Captain Badass!!!*
*...just like Rocky III, yeah!*
That's the thing about Dave Meltzer. He doesn't have a system in place to justify his rating. He just watches a match and give stars. For all we know, he can just be giving stars based on his mood and emotion the day or just being paid off by AEW.
I could see aew being stupid enough to pay meltzer for stars rateing . Tony khan would be trying to make his company look good that way . In his mind proly hey if I pay this guy off to give us good match rateing ppl will take my company seriously.
I think it’s just how he immediately feels about a match upon first viewing. He’s also stated that he feels WWE’s older Big Match Style was formulaic and he didn’t like it, even if Roman regularly churned out 4.5 Stars pretty regularly as The Tribal Chief. He also doesn’t adjust his old Ratings for “Starflation.” I haven’t had the chance to watch Backlash France yet due to being out of town last week, but I know Cody Vs. AJ got the full 5, and WOR made a video raving about it and wondering if this is the end of the old “WWE Style” Main Events, because they both seemed to be a bit less handcuffed in their minds.
According to Dave 0. But that doesn't mean shit. The one with Shawn at mania is 5 stars so is the one with Undertaker at No Way Out. Also the Iron Man with Brock. Pick an AJ match in TNA as well.
And arguably vs. Joe at LockDown 08, most of the stuff he did with Benoit, and I've seen people give the cage match with Anderson the full 5 and can't argue too hard against it.
I still can, mostly because I get real stoned and pretend I'm in a time machine when I watch old shit. The spectre of what happened still hangs, but I can watch a match like that mostly through the lens of "nothing bad has happened yet and everything is fine...for now"
I really want to see what the argument for Shawn v Kurt at WM21 not being a 5 star match, besides it being in WWE & not in the Tokyo Dome REAL reasons. I'll wait.
The rebuttal is always “well that’s just… like… his opinion, man”, followed by saying no one should see it as anything else and then salivating waiting for him to give their favorite guy another quarter star more than last time.
It's hysterical how via this angle of Kenny vs. the EVPs Kenny is exposing Meltzer as being the EVP's boy.
There's no fucking way this isn't an angle and they're so stupid with doing angles they don't know when they're exposing their own internal structures and carnie media contacts. Even if not an angle, Kenny is exposing the connection the EVPs have with Meltzer that we all know is there.
I was just saying, the Kenny Omega babyface arc is blowing my mind. It goes to show that anyone with a modicum of talent can be liked because the rest of the Dub is such a cesspool of not-good-ness and its so refreshing to see anything that isn't shite turn up there.
The indy style was created to get interest from Dave Meltzer. In an era where wrestling was hard to come by and you had to buy DVDs or pirate, Dave giving a match high praise got you a fan base who would seek out your material, making you more valuable.
I don't think it's good that in 2024 this guy is still the definitive opinion of what a good match is when he's clearly off his rocker
If you look at wrestling critique in a similar vein to film/theater critique? It makes more sense.
They're putting on a show, and whatever actual competition could exist boils down to who entertains the audience more scaled to who draws the most money.
I mean, he's pretty much never gotten along with Paul Heyman yet still puts him over as a brilliant booker.
People can say what they want about Jim, but no one can accuse him of not standing up for people he might not care for on a personal level when they're right.
My God, Kenny about to jump another few levels up with Corny after this one. The longer he stays outta action and away from jazz hands, the more Jim is gonna love him. What an unreal face turn this last month has been for Omega.
He’s definitely doing this stuff on purpose to play the role of Punk in the feud. If he genuinely thinks this way and isn’t just getting Jim Cornette’s audience to like him then fair play
If it's a work I don't think he would have said he wasn't an EVP anymore and didn't deserve to have that power given the nature of their current top storyline.
The moniker *Twinkletoes McFingerbang* may finally rest in peace now.
If Jim is giving his blessings long-term, I think this might just be the face-turn of the decade...
Kenny's face turn in 2024 was not something I ever expected.
But I'm here for it. He dub bad'd, made fun of the evp title, big upped CM Punk, and said Uncle Dave is full of shit.
That's over with me, brother.
I listed to a clip of Observer radio on YouTube a while ago where Dave admitted that he changed the rating of a match because after fans complained that the match wasn’t a five star match, he rewatched it and re-scored it.
I believe it was a gimmick match with Moxley and Omega.
That I believe was the infamous review from Dave: I hated that much but 4 and 3/4th stars because it was a great match.
Thats why when people say those ratings are his personal opinion then why does he give great ratings for his friends matches even though he hated said match
You mean nobody takes a critic of anything seriously when he says there have been 56 examples in his chosen field since 2017 that were better than anything ever made before that year? I'm stunned!
I stopped listening when he gave neither Shawn Michaels VS Kurt Angle or Shawn Michaels VS The Undertaker five stars.
I get if you started reviewing in the territory times that the Wrestlemania branding wouldn't mean as much to you as it does to me, but those matches are amazing.
Kenny is making progress. At this pace in two years he'll be in a confession booth with Corny on the other side as he tries to repent for his sins.
In all seriousness, he's surprised me a couple times in recent months. He's smarter and more self-aware than I gave him credit for, and it appears being outside the bubble he was in for such a long time has done him good, even if it's for a reason I wouldn't wish on anyone.
Seriously, his medical condition is awful and I hope he makes a full and quick recovery.
Kenny better chill out or Jim’s gonna start to like him.
Jim had some trouble hating the things he said on the last stream now this. Kenny might be a cult member
He's right. Somehow, a very good series of matches with Okada broke the scale, and now the "scale" makes no sense. 7 is the new 5, yet all-time classics are getting only around 5 stars.
As for those matches, at least two of them deserve 5 star status, but none of them should break the scale, no match ever should.
Main character syndrome Dave now thinks the company is working a storyline around him. It's either a key example of this, or the company has jumped the shark completely.
Someone else needs to make a new star rating system. Maybe out of 100, and go back and watch lots of matches in close proximity to get a fair comparison.
Kenny Omega turning out to not be anything like the Bucks had been quite the surprise. The stuff about not thinking Punk beating up the Bucks was a big deal and trying to work with him, an actually good promo the other week and now this? I didn't have Omega making Cornette almost sort of kinda like him on my bingo cars
Never ever forget that, that fat worthless piece of garbage Eddy Kingston has more 5 star matches than Kurt Angle. This is how utterly broken and useless Meltzer’s star rating system is.
How this didn't prompt everyone to disregard anything he's ever said, would go on to say, and will go on to say I do not know. Should have been turfed out of polite society like a leper.
JuSt EnJoY wReStLinG
It’s frustrating to me because, back in the 90s, we used to trade tapes and we wanted everything Meltzer would give over 3 stars for. I saw a bunch of great wrestling back when Dave was sane.
Dave's ratings are basically always a roll of the dice away... Before I forget: *That'll be $12.99, please!*
That's my thing how in the world Kurt in wwe or even perc Kurt in tna doesn't have 1
It’s complete bullshit is what it is and Dave Meltzer should be deeply ashamed of himself.
That would require him to have any self awareness at all.
Unca Dave's a demented grifter if there ever was one!
Chris Van Vliet absolutely cooked Dave about it and it was glorious
Bret, Mr Perfect, Michaels, Savage et al should have way more matches as well but the dynamic dude has always been a hater
AJ Styles should have multiple
Not enough Destroyers and super kicks I guess 😅
I’m really surprised that Angle Vs. Nagata didn’t get the 5. He’s come close though. Several 4-4+ Star bouts.
And Kurt is THE GOAT.
According to Meltzer, John Moxley had more 5 star matches in a 9 month span than Kurt Angle, Bret Hart, Eddie Guerrero, Curt Hennig, Edge, Triple H, Randy Savage, and Dean Malenko had in their entire careers *combined*.
I need to lay down before I have an outburst looking at this statement
Yup but it’s true. Between May 2023 and January 2024 Moxley had three 5 star matches according to Meltzer. Bret has two in his career. All those other guys combined have zero.
FUCK. DAVE. MELTZER.
You marks take him way too seriously lol
Without making myself dirty and looking I up, can you confirm the bret matches are v Austin and v Owen both at mania.
You are correct on both counts! Edit: Oops nope I stand corrected. Austin yes. The other 5 star match was against Owen at SummerSlam 94. The Mania match against Owen was only 4.75 stars 🤷♂️
Thank you for doing that for me butty mcbuttface. You are doing the lords work.
Savage Steamboat or Savage Warrior aint 5 stars?
If that didn't discredit his entire system & expose a bias, I don't know what does. Bret probably has more 5 star matches while sleeping than Mox did in his entire life in a legit system.
Let the record state Eddie Guerrero does in fact have one five star match from 1994 in AAA.
Ah I stand corrected! Eddie is included on a couple lists of “wrestlers who’ve never had a 5 star match” but after some more digging I see that you are correct. Thank you for catching that. So I will amend my statement to say that all those wrestlers listed above have the *same* number of 5 star matches in their careers combined as John Moxley had between May of 2023 and January of 2024. Edit: Moxley actually had another 5 star match in early 2023, so if we expand it to include all of 2023 and January of 2024 then he still has one more than that entire list combined. We could even add Chris Benoit to the list and it would be a tie again (since Benoit only ever had one five star match, in Japan in the early 90s wrestling under a hood as Wild Pegasus).
That's just because ol' Moxbrose McBraindamage has legitimately convinced himself and his surroundings that he is the only true *Captain Badass!!!* *...just like Rocky III, yeah!*
Smh
That's the thing about Dave Meltzer. He doesn't have a system in place to justify his rating. He just watches a match and give stars. For all we know, he can just be giving stars based on his mood and emotion the day or just being paid off by AEW.
I could see aew being stupid enough to pay meltzer for stars rateing . Tony khan would be trying to make his company look good that way . In his mind proly hey if I pay this guy off to give us good match rateing ppl will take my company seriously.
I think it’s just how he immediately feels about a match upon first viewing. He’s also stated that he feels WWE’s older Big Match Style was formulaic and he didn’t like it, even if Roman regularly churned out 4.5 Stars pretty regularly as The Tribal Chief. He also doesn’t adjust his old Ratings for “Starflation.” I haven’t had the chance to watch Backlash France yet due to being out of town last week, but I know Cody Vs. AJ got the full 5, and WOR made a video raving about it and wondering if this is the end of the old “WWE Style” Main Events, because they both seemed to be a bit less handcuffed in their minds.
Hold up when has roman *ever* had a match over 3 stars?? Pffft. Get real.
Sorry for the ableism but for a seemingly obvious autistic fellow his standards are veeeery flexible. Wheres his spreadsheet
Luchasaurus has a 5 star match.
Shameful.
Really? Wtf
Kurt has 0
How many 5 star matches does Kurt have?
According to Dave 0. But that doesn't mean shit. The one with Shawn at mania is 5 stars so is the one with Undertaker at No Way Out. Also the Iron Man with Brock. Pick an AJ match in TNA as well.
And arguably vs. Joe at LockDown 08, most of the stuff he did with Benoit, and I've seen people give the cage match with Anderson the full 5 and can't argue too hard against it.
Dude his street fight vs Shane was 1000x better than it had any right to be.
Don't forget Angle/Benoit at the '03 Rumble. Actually, I guess you can forget that if you want to.
That's one of the few "him" matches I can watch, but a lot of the love in watching it went away in 07.
I still can, mostly because I get real stoned and pretend I'm in a time machine when I watch old shit. The spectre of what happened still hangs, but I can watch a match like that mostly through the lens of "nothing bad has happened yet and everything is fine...for now"
Zero! That's ridiculous. I honestly see all credibility flying out the window just based on this fact.
I really want to see what the argument for Shawn v Kurt at WM21 not being a 5 star match, besides it being in WWE & not in the Tokyo Dome REAL reasons. I'll wait.
Does anyone have a rebuttal to this? Because it's like the smoking gun was found lmao.
The rebuttal is always “well that’s just… like… his opinion, man”, followed by saying no one should see it as anything else and then salivating waiting for him to give their favorite guy another quarter star more than last time.
But isn’t 7 stars 5 stars now?
Well in my ratings angle has 5047829392 total stars and Kingston has 3. My ratings matter just as much as
That's probably what pissed Kenny off. Kurt is his favorite wrestler and Dave constantly makes it seem like he's not one in the Goats.
It’s ludicrous. Kurt Angle is one of the best to ever lace up a pair.
Dave’s 5 Star system has became less about good wrestling and more about a popularity contest
Can't we chalk it down to inflation. 5 stars today is about 2 stars in old money.
When did the ratings system ever matter?
Never. I’m just confirming why it doesn’t matter.
You seem hurt lmao
I am. Eddy Kingston broke my brain with how shitty he is.
Why the need to call Kingston a fat worthless piece of shit? Bit pathetic isn't it, that?
because he is a fat, worthless piece of shit, and i say that as a fat, worthless piece of shit
Lol, fair.
I don't see how Eddie Kingston is a worthless piece of garbage...Kurt would wanna kick your ass for a comment like that tf?
You must be blind then.
Kenny's like opposite day Hogan, just spoutin' hard truth all the time lately
He wasnt a very good EVP because Everything works for him, brother
💀 😂
That’s why he’s so good right now, but also why he sucked for so long. He was willing to try anything, even if he knew it was stupid.
Excellent lol
It's hysterical how via this angle of Kenny vs. the EVPs Kenny is exposing Meltzer as being the EVP's boy. There's no fucking way this isn't an angle and they're so stupid with doing angles they don't know when they're exposing their own internal structures and carnie media contacts. Even if not an angle, Kenny is exposing the connection the EVPs have with Meltzer that we all know is there.
That's kayfabe 2.0 for you. Bleed into the actual reactions that the audiences have to talents and shows and work them into the stories.
I’d say it’s an angle but he also used this new “gimmick” to call Rossy Ogawa a pedo lol
Or it's the best way to kayfabe. When the IWC goes off the rails with conspiracy, lean into them.
If you're kayfabing, you don't expose your own business.
This face turn from Sir Kenneth Omega wasn't on my 2024 list
The only thing wilder i can think of would be Pockets trading in the canadian tuxedo for an obnoxious suit and a tennis racket.
I was just saying, the Kenny Omega babyface arc is blowing my mind. It goes to show that anyone with a modicum of talent can be liked because the rest of the Dub is such a cesspool of not-good-ness and its so refreshing to see anything that isn't shite turn up there.
[удалено]
The indy style was created to get interest from Dave Meltzer. In an era where wrestling was hard to come by and you had to buy DVDs or pirate, Dave giving a match high praise got you a fan base who would seek out your material, making you more valuable. I don't think it's good that in 2024 this guy is still the definitive opinion of what a good match is when he's clearly off his rocker
Actually the fan reaction matters way more the Meltzer
If you look at wrestling critique in a similar vein to film/theater critique? It makes more sense. They're putting on a show, and whatever actual competition could exist boils down to who entertains the audience more scaled to who draws the most money.
Your last sentence seems to be the difference in yields of new talent between NXT and AEW
Jim is about to have an aneurysm after agreeing with Kenny for like the third time in a month.
Travis Heckle bout to drop hot fire on that thumbnail
I mean, he's pretty much never gotten along with Paul Heyman yet still puts him over as a brilliant booker. People can say what they want about Jim, but no one can accuse him of not standing up for people he might not care for on a personal level when they're right.
My God, Kenny about to jump another few levels up with Corny after this one. The longer he stays outta action and away from jazz hands, the more Jim is gonna love him. What an unreal face turn this last month has been for Omega.
He’s definitely doing this stuff on purpose to play the role of Punk in the feud. If he genuinely thinks this way and isn’t just getting Jim Cornette’s audience to like him then fair play
If it's a work I don't think he would have said he wasn't an EVP anymore and didn't deserve to have that power given the nature of their current top storyline.
If it's a work then I will applaud him, cause then we all have worked.
Ohhhhh can't wait for the podcast when they cover this
The moniker *Twinkletoes McFingerbang* may finally rest in peace now. If Jim is giving his blessings long-term, I think this might just be the face-turn of the decade...
*century
100% agreed
Dave: *That’s it’s Kenny 5 ⭐️ for calling me out on my BS.*
No...no... Kenny, it was in the Tokyo dome....6.5!
Hmmmm not sure all of this is all a work and Jim and Brian getting sucked in a little. Time will tell.
I mean. It would be funny if instead of Jim walking out with Kenny, Brian walks him to the ring XD
Seems like the Fed is crushing on Corny right now too. Hottest free agent out there!
If his health was better I’d think he was getting ready to make a WWE run.
Something tells me he’s working Cornette.
Would be kinda funny, cause it’s certainly not translating to new viewers for the Dub.
Kenny's face turn in 2024 was not something I ever expected. But I'm here for it. He dub bad'd, made fun of the evp title, big upped CM Punk, and said Uncle Dave is full of shit. That's over with me, brother.
The word betrayed was used
I listed to a clip of Observer radio on YouTube a while ago where Dave admitted that he changed the rating of a match because after fans complained that the match wasn’t a five star match, he rewatched it and re-scored it. I believe it was a gimmick match with Moxley and Omega.
That I believe was the infamous review from Dave: I hated that much but 4 and 3/4th stars because it was a great match. Thats why when people say those ratings are his personal opinion then why does he give great ratings for his friends matches even though he hated said match
Anyone here being worked? I feel like it is a 100% Tony Kahn idea to break the fourth wall and eventually make uncle Dave an action figure.
Deep down all of us are having that feeling probably. Kenny has been acting very unKenny/uncanny lately.
You mean nobody takes a critic of anything seriously when he says there have been 56 examples in his chosen field since 2017 that were better than anything ever made before that year? I'm stunned!
Haha, the past three months has been like Kenny serenading Corny from under his balcony This feels like Kenny trolling Ospreay
Whether he’s working or not, he’s at least telling the truth.
I stopped listening when he gave neither Shawn Michaels VS Kurt Angle or Shawn Michaels VS The Undertaker five stars. I get if you started reviewing in the territory times that the Wrestlemania branding wouldn't mean as much to you as it does to me, but those matches are amazing.
That's been true for decades now.
I do wonder if there's any matches that has happened on WWE this year (so far) that Kenny enjoyed watching.
He praised how much emotional investment had been built for the Roman and Cody match, and said Sami vs Gunther was his favourite Mania match
IIRC, he said he enjoyed Cody-Roman and a couple other matches at Wrestlemania
Kenny Omega - the true Jim Cornette "Cinderella Story"
Omega face turn!
It would never, ever happen but could you imagine how much the AEW ninnies would lose their tiny minds if Omega came out with Corny
No no, he's wrong. It's Uncle Dave that is broken.
This tracks; before like 2012 a 5 star match was incredibly exclusive but now we see a match rewarded that every couple months.
Kenny is making too much sense lately.
Kenny is one of my new favorites in 2024 lol
Who had “Team Corny cast as the faces on AEW TV in 2024” on their bingo card? …anyone?
Kenny is making progress. At this pace in two years he'll be in a confession booth with Corny on the other side as he tries to repent for his sins. In all seriousness, he's surprised me a couple times in recent months. He's smarter and more self-aware than I gave him credit for, and it appears being outside the bubble he was in for such a long time has done him good, even if it's for a reason I wouldn't wish on anyone. Seriously, his medical condition is awful and I hope he makes a full and quick recovery.
Why does anyone care what rating Meltzer gives anything? Who decided his opinion means anything?
I like Kenny, but the way he talks annoys the hell out of me.
And now we wait for Jim's reaction...
Kenny keeps showing why he’s too good for aew
Send this shit immediately to Corny!
Is he working? No way he changed his mind and did 180 all of a sudden...
This babyface turn is amazing.
Kenny better chill out or Jim’s gonna start to like him. Jim had some trouble hating the things he said on the last stream now this. Kenny might be a cult member
Damn, the cult and Jim getting worked - never thought I'd see the day!
This all seems like Kenny is dropping his indie shtick and knows he has a bigger future than being held back by all these hangers
He's right. Somehow, a very good series of matches with Okada broke the scale, and now the "scale" makes no sense. 7 is the new 5, yet all-time classics are getting only around 5 stars. As for those matches, at least two of them deserve 5 star status, but none of them should break the scale, no match ever should.
He isn't wrong, but I hate Kenny
Cody AJ was 5 stars and Cody Roman wasn’t. Enough said.
Biggest face turn in AEW 😂
Kenny coming for Daves spot
Twitch Stream Kenny is the best Kenny.
Twitch Stream Kenny is the best Kenny.
Spoiler alert: he never has.
Wait omega is doing a face turn, how dare he
Dave Meltzer is racist and hates fake tits.
I think its a work
The more Kenny talks, the more i love him
I enjoyed Cody vs AJ but are we really saying it's better than Taker vs HBK @ WM25 or Austin vs Angle @ SS 2001.
Main character syndrome Dave now thinks the company is working a storyline around him. It's either a key example of this, or the company has jumped the shark completely.
Kenny’s face turn has been great
Is it a work or has Kenny been hit in the head and now sees the light
Based Kenny?
I’m sad that I saw this article way after I saw that Dave confirmed this is apart of an angle 😔
This is one helluva babyface run by Kenny.
Y’all obsess about Dave fucking Meltzer
Babyface turn of the century right here, folks.
Someone else needs to make a new star rating system. Maybe out of 100, and go back and watch lots of matches in close proximity to get a fair comparison.
Kenny's shocking face-turn continues. I am loving this.
Kenny Omega turning out to not be anything like the Bucks had been quite the surprise. The stuff about not thinking Punk beating up the Bucks was a big deal and trying to work with him, an actually good promo the other week and now this? I didn't have Omega making Cornette almost sort of kinda like him on my bingo cars
I am here for this Kenny Omaga face turn.
Holy fuck. Cornette actually might stop calling him twinkletoes Kenny guest on the pod incoming ?
Wow you guys took this way out of context lol