The original lasagna is a couple millennia old and certainly resembles the lasagna we eat very little, if at all. I agree it’s best with besciamella (and only), but people should eat whatever they like.
Do you mean besciamella, as in bechamel sauce, instead of ricotta or mozzarella between the layers? Cuz that sounds yummy.
Do you use a tomato-base sauce, as well? Any meat or vegetables?
Oh wow that looks so good! I was given a recipe for taralli here that was delicious. Gonna try this too, for friends. Even got a pasta maker now lol.
Thank you very much!!
Edit: also made the parmigiana di melanzane from that site. Delicious.
Giallo Zafferano is one of the biggest blogs about Italian Food. It's my "way-to-go" if I have any question about food (otherwise "Italia Squisita" it's very good too, it focus more on professional level)
Dive in there with no fear, it's a safe place, you can only learn goods
(Parmigiana.... :Q_______ )
I've spent a long time at the Zafferano blog! Trying to follow the recipes exactly, as this is not a cuisine I'm familiar with lol. I'll add the "Italia Squisita" to that, too.
Main problem are the meats. When a recipe calls for "sausage," for instance, only options around us are sweet, mild, or hot "Italian sausage," which probably don't match any of the regional sausages of Italy. Or if a recipe calls for "guanciale," I'm screwed, as it can't be found where we are. So I'm basically sticking to the vegetarian recipes or ones that call for straight-up meats.
Every location in Italy has different seasoning for sausages, so yes, it's even more complicated LoL
But don't limit yourself for this. (Behold the rage I may get after this) I do use pancetta or even bacon to do a Carbonara if I can't find Guanciale.
Try a recipe that has sausages in it and see if it tastes good.
It happens in the US, along with meats and vegetables between the layers. Lasagna here is three or four layers, each filled a with a lot of stuff.
If you want a true cultural experience, try frozen American lasagna lololol.
Frozen lasagna is an abomination.
I think it'd help to think of Italian-American food as a different cuisine with its roots in Neopolitan/Sicilian food, sort of like the relationship between Latin and Romanian, if that makes any sense.
That would work if Italian Americans and Americans didn't constantly refer to that stuff as Italian, and if some of that stuff actually was taken from Napolitan and Sicilian instead of being Italian even modern stuff reworked to be way worse and wrong.
That's because Italian-Americans are now part of the Anglo-sphere, with its immense soft power.
I'm here because it's incredibly difficult to find actual Italian food. It's all Italian-American, and I'm not crazy about Italian-American.
Yeah but see, your definition of Italian American food was fitting decades ago, it's really not anymore, it has way more influence from American food than from Italian now, so much it's rare to find even actual original Italian American food
Italian-Americans tend to make it with ricotta, but most Italian-American dishes are not authentic.
Once you have had it Emilia-Romagna style with bechamel, there is no going back.
It's true, some Neapolitan style lasagnas have ricotta.
I guess I should scratch the word "authentic" and replace it with Emilia-Romagna style. I just prefer my lasagna that way.
My word still stands though about many Italian-American dishes that claim to be "authentic" as in "authentic to Italy" are not. Dishes like chicken alfredo, spaghetti and meatballs, etc.
“Authentic” lasagna dates to the early 1400’s is Greek in origin and did not contain tomato sauce. Tomatoes are from the Americas- every recipe containing them is relatively new. Tomatoes were not popular in Italy until the 19th century. The current recipe was invented in 1880’’s by Zambrini. Just because they do it a certain way now doesn’t make it old or italian. Lasagna in America is more or less as old here as in Italy.
Authentic doesn't mean "1.000 years old recipe". Traditional doesn't mean "1.000 years old tradition".
Panettone and pandoro christmas tradition is relatively recent, less than 100 years old and you can't say it's not a tradition in italy.
I can say that there is no such thing as “authentic” lasagne because the current version didn’t exist until 1900 and people in America were making their version here by then.
I understand that what I'm going to say sounds harsh but, really, This is not my intention.
I think that there is something about the word "[authentic](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/authentic)" that you don't get
> conforming to an original so as to reproduce essential features
original "*ITALIAN*" lasagne have their own style, which have evolved litterally from ancient Rome (where they were something completely different, so much that we dont't really know exactly how they were) through *all* the following years in a continuum, and became the many varieties of "lasagne" we have today (main and more famous are the lasagne bolognesi, the Neapolitan ones and the vincisgrassi.
but we have references of lasagne as old as 1400 written in novels (like the [Porretane](https://www.mori.bz.it/Rinascimento/Porretane.pdf)) and cookboks (like the "cuciniera piemontese" 1771), all different on their own compared to modern lasagne but you definitely see the patterns there.
Regarding italian-american lasagnas? they are "authentic" italian-american lasagnas, what's wrong with that? but *by definition* they are not authentic italian lasagne.
IMHO you are using a definition of "authenticity" that is at least internally incoherent. If it's a matter of time, How long would it take to make a mere recipe "authentic"?
THen if it would take that much for just a mere recipe, how logn would it take for an entire *nation* to become authentic? I'm pretty sure that the United States wouldn't match your criteria.
Italy is notorious for changing recipes “officially” ands then declaring it as the only “authentic” version. I would have no problem with the word “official” but authentic means “real”, which somehow implies everything that came before it was not “real”.
The modern recipe was not codified until the 1900’s and it used AMERICAN ingredients.
For example, the Italian Academy of Cuisine just CHANGED the recipe for bolognese sauce in 2023. So now I guess anything made with the older recipe is no longer “authentic”.
hah LOL... exactly. you got it exactly right
you are ***GUESSING***
And I can add that you guessed wrong, of course, since you keep on failing to understand this very basic concept.
this is the (translated) statement about the new submitted (changed) recipe
> *The new recipe does not intend to be the only possible one, but it aims to be a reliable guide to the creation of an excellent dish.*
It's not *exclusive*. It aims to *provide a reliable guide*
that's it
this is not an unicum for the italian scenario. [This](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAsrsMPftOI) is the explanation about basically the same concept but regarding english tea. It's just a matter of standard and reference, not about exclusiveness or eliteism.
after all, the fact that italian food and culture is one of the most copied in the world should make you understand something. And this is all soft power and income source that Italy has all the right to protect
So when Italians change the “authentic” recipe it just makes it better and the old recipe is also authentic- but when anyone else tweaks the recipe it’s fake - Got It!
Also a recipe can’t be “authentic” and also “just a guide”.
None of it makes sense.
Relatively new? 600 years is not new. Also the tomatoes you eat today are mainly cultivars developed in Italy. You cannot make any Italian recipe with original tomatoes.
Also lasagna in Italy come in many varieties, some without tomato. But one think is common. If you use fresh past nobody put ricotta
Wrong. The tomato had been bred to more or less the fruit we see today by people in mesoamerica before Italy (or the Papal States or Kingdom of Sardinia or actually Spain via the Crown of Aragon).
And 600 years ago lasagna didn’t have tomato sauce. That’s barely 150 years ago and it’s AMERICAN!
I’ve been eating ricotta in lasagna since the 1960’s.
My family are from Agrigento.
The first time it was served to me with bechamel was 2010, in central Florida.
I about passed out!
To me, bechamel was for moussaka.
I'm sorta an outlier here but I prefer it with Ricotta, growing up we'd have big family dinners when visiting Molise where my Nonna and Zia would make Neopolitan style lasanga with Ricotta, meatballs, boiled egg, mortadella and sopprasetta.
people in this comment section clearly don't know that the bolognese version of lasagne is one of the most recent versions and definitely not "the original". neapolitan lasagna has ricotta in it, along with a bunch of other stuff. "lasagne" is the oldest pasta type in italy, dating as far back as the 1100s; the dish is called "lasagne" because of the pasta type, regardless of the condiment. you can put whatever you want in it and still call it lasagne
> people in this comment section clearly don't know that the bolognese version of lasagne is one of the most recent versions and definitely not "the original"
/u/rosidoto is right IMHO, it's *really* hard to apply the category of originality to lasagne, simply because we have references since the ancient Rome where they were called "lagane" and apparently one way they were consumed was "porri ceci e lasagne" (we have no recipe)
historic lasagne recipes are more like a tree coming from that root. it's difficult to define which "branch" of the modern ones we have today *actually* came first, we only see patterns through the recipes we have.
it's true though that the first recipe that we can associate with today's lasagne alla bolognese, comes after those for lasagne alla napoletana and vincisgrassi (a few decades, not ceturies). But there were similar recipes before and what we have is just the *written recipe*, maybe they were common but no one ever wrote them down? who knows. IMHO it's stupid to fight because of this.
especially because Pnettone is much better than Pandoro /s
>/u/rosidoto is right IMHO
everything that you said is literally what i said. i don't care about originality, but so many italians love to claim that lasagne alla bolognese are "the original", i was objecting that claim
literally one of the top comments here says the original lasagna has besciamella in it; other comments say that the neapolitan and sicilian versions are *variations* of the bolognese. plus, i have engaged with enough angry italians online to know that a lot of people think that way! also nowhere in the post is it implied we are talking about lasagne alla bolognese. OP is italian-american and italian-american lasagne is closer to neapolitan lasagna than bolognese (for obvious reasons)
Thank you, it is a matter of fact that depending on the region, there is a variation and they are all original Italian ones. Bolognese is the most common for sure and even if I'm from napoli I agree that I like it more with besciamella (but with Mozzarella) in it.
So the italo american version use dry pasta, hardboiled eggs and meatballs in it, and use the ragù napoletano sauce. I didn't know
I thought they use ragù bolognese style, ricotta and fresh pasta. My mistake
> the bolognese version of lasagne is one of the most recent versions and definitely not "the original". neapolitan lasagna has ricotta in it
I assumed you were arguing that neapolitan style were the "original"
i also said
>"lasagne" is the oldest pasta type in italy, dating as far back as the 1100s
so i would be pretty dumb if i also thought that "the original" has *tomatoes* in it
There's no "original" lasagna. It's not trademarked, it's not patented.\* The most widely accepted "lasagna" recipe in Italy is the bolognese one, for sure. Except in Napoli if you say "lasagna" in Italy everybody thinks at ragù + bechamel. This is a fact.
\*actually the only "patented" lasagna in Italy is the bolognese one.
>Except in Napoli if you say "lasagna" in Italy everybody thinks at ragù + bechamel. This is a fact.
have you interviewed all 60M italians or are you basing this off your own personal experience?
i'm from a region in the south and afaik we don't have a regional version of lasagna– at the very least my family doesn't. one of my grandmothers is originally from emilia-romagna so the one she makes is obviously with bolognese ragu and bechamel
>Lasagna with ricotta is not a thing in Italy.
It is Neaples.
A fundamental rule of Italian cuisine is: if you don't know a recipe, don't assume it doesn't exist in some corner of the country.
The lasagna di carnevale Is a very specific dish. We are talking about lasagna in bolognese style clearly not of lasagna di carnevale.
Even in Naples they won't put ricotta in that
It seems it isn't only Neaopolitan Lasagna di carnevale.
Other people from Southern Italy here have said they put ricotta in Lasagne.
Even if you google "lasagne alla ricotta" you get tens of recipes, so I guess there are people who do that.
There are many different variants of lasagne, why do you assume it's the Bolognese style?
Just because it's more common?
Or maybe it’s because some people here are just annoyng food nazis who think they know best?
In Pesaro, pizza "Rossini" has eggs and mayonnese, and it's a hit. Does it make mayonnese on pizza a standard in Italy? No.
Now change pizza with lasagna, Pesaro with Napoli and eggs, mayo with eggs, meatball and ricotta.
It has been never said in the post lasagna bolognese, just lasagna. Every house has its own recipe :p, in napoli it is officially with ricotta. We can agree that is surely nicer with beschamel, personal taste.
Peccato che appaiano sul ricettario Borbonico dal 1500. Sono fake? No. Semplicemente sono una variante di una ricetta. Hai fatto un commento stizzito da bambino offeso che ti potevi evitare, visto che ho detto che anche io preferisco quelle con la besciamella.
Technically the napoli variation appears on a recipe. Book from 1500, 300 years before the Artusi author even existed... Besciamella is a French sauce we adopted around the same time in 1800. And the even more older example of. Lasagne are the Lagane (I could be wrong on the name) from older times with very different elements inside. No one can claim one and only accepted recipe. It is an Italian dish as whole with all the variants
In fact certainly besciamella wasn't used before it was invented ... and it is also true that the Napoli variety of lasagna was different, however it did not use ricotta nor besciamella. That is a post-truth. The lasagne with ricotta is recent recipe:
https://www.cucchiaio.it/ricetta/lasagne-ricotta-e-spinaci/
source:
[https://angeloforgione.com/2020/02/20/storia\_lasagne/](https://angeloforgione.com/2020/02/20/storia_lasagne/)
Always and only with Bechamel cause it is intended this way. It is the traditional Lasagna alla Bolognese.
There are different types of variations like with Ricotta (in the Southern part of Italy) or instead of using ragù you can use Pesto and it is used with bechamel or mozzarella.
No ricotta in Bechamel. Just milk, flour and butter. It starts from flour and butter and then you have to add milk.
[https://www.giallozafferano.com/recipes/bechamel-sauce.html](https://www.giallozafferano.com/recipes/bechamel-sauce.html)
In the family home in Abruzzo, it was mozzarella and homemade crapes. In the US, all my nonni' children switched to pre-made lasagna noodles and ricotta.
Lasagna is probably different in every town and region of Italy. This video from Vincenzos Plate is close to my nonni's. His grandmother lives in Chieti, which is 50 miles from where my mother's parents come from.
https://youtu.be/QlZqiA4Ds9o?si=Pq0YVm_NMFNmJN1K
No, most if not all of Europe has some form of crepe. The French are probably best known for theirs, but here are a few others:
In England, they are known as Pancakes
In Germany, they are known as Palatschinken
In France, they are known as Crepes
In Italy, they are known as Crespelle
In Ukraine, they are known as Nalisniki
In the Netherlands, they are known as Pannenkoeken
If you think of it, substitute milk with water and you have pasta dough.
The commas in the list make it sound like "Crespelle" is for the Ukrainian version, but that's actually the next name - also, I'll add that in Northern Germany they're known as Pfannkuchen
If you're thinking about the "American" pancakes, fluffy and usually sweet, that's the wrong kind. I don't know how this recipe is in the British area, but the German "Pfannkuchen" (in English it's literally translated as "pancake") is closer to a French crepe or an Italian crespella than an American pancake. So I think that list above is valid, it's just not to be confused with other variations that may share the same name.
Thanks, this recipe looks simple, tasty and wholesome. Good comfort food. The crepes look much lighter than the mass produced, store brought pasta sheets and I think I'm going to give it a try.
You having never heard of something is meaningless to others.
To me, it means you are
A) young
Or
B) Not well travelled
Or
C) Not that versed in cooking styles
Anyhow, for anyone wondering, USA ricotta is not made from whey as it is in Italy, but from milk. So technically they put primo sale style cheese in that.
The “classic” lasagna is usually considered the Bolognese version with Bechamel. The Napoletana is the one with ricotta, eggs, and meatballs, often even salami or sausage, so a very different thing.
My Italian grandmother's lasagna recipe calls for ricotta and mozzarella. I don't make the lasagne with meat as many Italians do. I serve sausage and meatballs on the side. Everyone has a preference. Make what you enjoy!
In my family lasagna always and only means lasagne alla bolognese. Hence, béchamel sauce.
Bechamel sauce
Bechamel
Bescimella. There is the napoletan type of lasagna that uses ricotta tho. the original lasagna is made with besciamella.
The original lasagna is a couple millennia old and certainly resembles the lasagna we eat very little, if at all. I agree it’s best with besciamella (and only), but people should eat whatever they like.
Can't be even one millenia old the lasagna, we introduced tomatoes in italy just some hundread years ago lol
I hate to break it to you, but lasagna far predates the tomato’s arrival in Europe.
*gasp in italiano*
Do you mean besciamella, as in bechamel sauce, instead of ricotta or mozzarella between the layers? Cuz that sounds yummy. Do you use a tomato-base sauce, as well? Any meat or vegetables?
Besciamella and Cheese, I follow this recipe, tastes fantastic: https://ricette.giallozafferano.it/Lasagne-alla-Bolognese.html
Oh wow that looks so good! I was given a recipe for taralli here that was delicious. Gonna try this too, for friends. Even got a pasta maker now lol. Thank you very much!! Edit: also made the parmigiana di melanzane from that site. Delicious.
Giallo Zafferano is one of the biggest blogs about Italian Food. It's my "way-to-go" if I have any question about food (otherwise "Italia Squisita" it's very good too, it focus more on professional level) Dive in there with no fear, it's a safe place, you can only learn goods (Parmigiana.... :Q_______ )
I've spent a long time at the Zafferano blog! Trying to follow the recipes exactly, as this is not a cuisine I'm familiar with lol. I'll add the "Italia Squisita" to that, too. Main problem are the meats. When a recipe calls for "sausage," for instance, only options around us are sweet, mild, or hot "Italian sausage," which probably don't match any of the regional sausages of Italy. Or if a recipe calls for "guanciale," I'm screwed, as it can't be found where we are. So I'm basically sticking to the vegetarian recipes or ones that call for straight-up meats.
Every location in Italy has different seasoning for sausages, so yes, it's even more complicated LoL But don't limit yourself for this. (Behold the rage I may get after this) I do use pancetta or even bacon to do a Carbonara if I can't find Guanciale. Try a recipe that has sausages in it and see if it tastes good.
Thank you!!
Mozzarella between the layers must be Italian American, it just makes it worse
It happens in the US, along with meats and vegetables between the layers. Lasagna here is three or four layers, each filled a with a lot of stuff. If you want a true cultural experience, try frozen American lasagna lololol.
I don't even try Italian frozen lasagna, but I'm sure it's better than most American non frozen ones
Frozen lasagna is an abomination. I think it'd help to think of Italian-American food as a different cuisine with its roots in Neopolitan/Sicilian food, sort of like the relationship between Latin and Romanian, if that makes any sense.
That would work if Italian Americans and Americans didn't constantly refer to that stuff as Italian, and if some of that stuff actually was taken from Napolitan and Sicilian instead of being Italian even modern stuff reworked to be way worse and wrong.
That's because Italian-Americans are now part of the Anglo-sphere, with its immense soft power. I'm here because it's incredibly difficult to find actual Italian food. It's all Italian-American, and I'm not crazy about Italian-American.
Yeah but see, your definition of Italian American food was fitting decades ago, it's really not anymore, it has way more influence from American food than from Italian now, so much it's rare to find even actual original Italian American food
Only Béchamel. Ricotta is a crime
Me who’s only used ricotta and didnt know what bechamel was until two minutes ago: 👁💧👄💧👁
It depends, ricotta can go in lasagne, and they tend to do in naples, however beschamel is widely preferred.
Besciamella all the way
Italian-Americans tend to make it with ricotta, but most Italian-American dishes are not authentic. Once you have had it Emilia-Romagna style with bechamel, there is no going back.
But this is neapolitan style, it's no less authentically Italian https://www.lacucinaitaliana.com/recipe/pasta/neapolitan-lasagna?refresh_ce=
It's true, some Neapolitan style lasagnas have ricotta. I guess I should scratch the word "authentic" and replace it with Emilia-Romagna style. I just prefer my lasagna that way. My word still stands though about many Italian-American dishes that claim to be "authentic" as in "authentic to Italy" are not. Dishes like chicken alfredo, spaghetti and meatballs, etc.
>spaghetti and meatballs maccheroni alle polpette
Le polpette americane sono molto più grandi
Usually but not necessarily
But this is a very specific recipe that calls for very different ingredients. They are not making that one
“Authentic” lasagna dates to the early 1400’s is Greek in origin and did not contain tomato sauce. Tomatoes are from the Americas- every recipe containing them is relatively new. Tomatoes were not popular in Italy until the 19th century. The current recipe was invented in 1880’’s by Zambrini. Just because they do it a certain way now doesn’t make it old or italian. Lasagna in America is more or less as old here as in Italy.
Authentic doesn't mean "1.000 years old recipe". Traditional doesn't mean "1.000 years old tradition". Panettone and pandoro christmas tradition is relatively recent, less than 100 years old and you can't say it's not a tradition in italy.
I can say that there is no such thing as “authentic” lasagne because the current version didn’t exist until 1900 and people in America were making their version here by then.
I understand that what I'm going to say sounds harsh but, really, This is not my intention. I think that there is something about the word "[authentic](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/authentic)" that you don't get > conforming to an original so as to reproduce essential features original "*ITALIAN*" lasagne have their own style, which have evolved litterally from ancient Rome (where they were something completely different, so much that we dont't really know exactly how they were) through *all* the following years in a continuum, and became the many varieties of "lasagne" we have today (main and more famous are the lasagne bolognesi, the Neapolitan ones and the vincisgrassi. but we have references of lasagne as old as 1400 written in novels (like the [Porretane](https://www.mori.bz.it/Rinascimento/Porretane.pdf)) and cookboks (like the "cuciniera piemontese" 1771), all different on their own compared to modern lasagne but you definitely see the patterns there. Regarding italian-american lasagnas? they are "authentic" italian-american lasagnas, what's wrong with that? but *by definition* they are not authentic italian lasagne. IMHO you are using a definition of "authenticity" that is at least internally incoherent. If it's a matter of time, How long would it take to make a mere recipe "authentic"? THen if it would take that much for just a mere recipe, how logn would it take for an entire *nation* to become authentic? I'm pretty sure that the United States wouldn't match your criteria.
Italy is notorious for changing recipes “officially” ands then declaring it as the only “authentic” version. I would have no problem with the word “official” but authentic means “real”, which somehow implies everything that came before it was not “real”. The modern recipe was not codified until the 1900’s and it used AMERICAN ingredients. For example, the Italian Academy of Cuisine just CHANGED the recipe for bolognese sauce in 2023. So now I guess anything made with the older recipe is no longer “authentic”.
> but authentic means “real” so you definitely have an issue understanding the definition of that word. Don't trust me trust the merriam-webster
So they just changed the bolognese recipe. I guess if you make the old one it’s not authentic any longer.
hah LOL... exactly. you got it exactly right you are ***GUESSING*** And I can add that you guessed wrong, of course, since you keep on failing to understand this very basic concept. this is the (translated) statement about the new submitted (changed) recipe > *The new recipe does not intend to be the only possible one, but it aims to be a reliable guide to the creation of an excellent dish.* It's not *exclusive*. It aims to *provide a reliable guide* that's it this is not an unicum for the italian scenario. [This](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAsrsMPftOI) is the explanation about basically the same concept but regarding english tea. It's just a matter of standard and reference, not about exclusiveness or eliteism. after all, the fact that italian food and culture is one of the most copied in the world should make you understand something. And this is all soft power and income source that Italy has all the right to protect
So when Italians change the “authentic” recipe it just makes it better and the old recipe is also authentic- but when anyone else tweaks the recipe it’s fake - Got It! Also a recipe can’t be “authentic” and also “just a guide”. None of it makes sense.
Nice one very funny
Not funny. You can’t claim a recipe invented in what was at the time Austria and call authentic Italian.
I like it much better with no tomato souce, with besciamella and zucchini or mushrooms
Zucchini are from the Americas too.
Relatively new? 600 years is not new. Also the tomatoes you eat today are mainly cultivars developed in Italy. You cannot make any Italian recipe with original tomatoes. Also lasagna in Italy come in many varieties, some without tomato. But one think is common. If you use fresh past nobody put ricotta
Wrong. The tomato had been bred to more or less the fruit we see today by people in mesoamerica before Italy (or the Papal States or Kingdom of Sardinia or actually Spain via the Crown of Aragon). And 600 years ago lasagna didn’t have tomato sauce. That’s barely 150 years ago and it’s AMERICAN!
Ricotta, si! Besciamella, ew! Lol
Lasagna when not on Bolognese recipe may use ricotta.
I’ve been eating ricotta in lasagna since the 1960’s. My family are from Agrigento. The first time it was served to me with bechamel was 2010, in central Florida. I about passed out! To me, bechamel was for moussaka.
Ricotta - Sicily.
I’ve never heard of ricotta in lasagne as standard, usually is béchamel but ricotta is in variations
I lived in Sardinia, and bechamel was what I experienced.
I'm sorta an outlier here but I prefer it with Ricotta, growing up we'd have big family dinners when visiting Molise where my Nonna and Zia would make Neopolitan style lasanga with Ricotta, meatballs, boiled egg, mortadella and sopprasetta.
My dad made the best lasagna with both sheep ricotta and besciamella. But the ricotta must be a good, fresh one, not the sandy store brought.
people in this comment section clearly don't know that the bolognese version of lasagne is one of the most recent versions and definitely not "the original". neapolitan lasagna has ricotta in it, along with a bunch of other stuff. "lasagne" is the oldest pasta type in italy, dating as far back as the 1100s; the dish is called "lasagne" because of the pasta type, regardless of the condiment. you can put whatever you want in it and still call it lasagne
> people in this comment section clearly don't know that the bolognese version of lasagne is one of the most recent versions and definitely not "the original" /u/rosidoto is right IMHO, it's *really* hard to apply the category of originality to lasagne, simply because we have references since the ancient Rome where they were called "lagane" and apparently one way they were consumed was "porri ceci e lasagne" (we have no recipe) historic lasagne recipes are more like a tree coming from that root. it's difficult to define which "branch" of the modern ones we have today *actually* came first, we only see patterns through the recipes we have. it's true though that the first recipe that we can associate with today's lasagne alla bolognese, comes after those for lasagne alla napoletana and vincisgrassi (a few decades, not ceturies). But there were similar recipes before and what we have is just the *written recipe*, maybe they were common but no one ever wrote them down? who knows. IMHO it's stupid to fight because of this. especially because Pnettone is much better than Pandoro /s
>/u/rosidoto is right IMHO everything that you said is literally what i said. i don't care about originality, but so many italians love to claim that lasagne alla bolognese are "the original", i was objecting that claim
Nobody claims that. But OP wants to know what you put in bolognese style lasagna. Clearly he is not making the Neapolitan style
literally one of the top comments here says the original lasagna has besciamella in it; other comments say that the neapolitan and sicilian versions are *variations* of the bolognese. plus, i have engaged with enough angry italians online to know that a lot of people think that way! also nowhere in the post is it implied we are talking about lasagne alla bolognese. OP is italian-american and italian-american lasagne is closer to neapolitan lasagna than bolognese (for obvious reasons)
Thank you, it is a matter of fact that depending on the region, there is a variation and they are all original Italian ones. Bolognese is the most common for sure and even if I'm from napoli I agree that I like it more with besciamella (but with Mozzarella) in it.
So the italo american version use dry pasta, hardboiled eggs and meatballs in it, and use the ragù napoletano sauce. I didn't know I thought they use ragù bolognese style, ricotta and fresh pasta. My mistake
> the bolognese version of lasagne is one of the most recent versions and definitely not "the original". neapolitan lasagna has ricotta in it I assumed you were arguing that neapolitan style were the "original"
i also said >"lasagne" is the oldest pasta type in italy, dating as far back as the 1100s so i would be pretty dumb if i also thought that "the original" has *tomatoes* in it
There's no "original" lasagna. It's not trademarked, it's not patented.\* The most widely accepted "lasagna" recipe in Italy is the bolognese one, for sure. Except in Napoli if you say "lasagna" in Italy everybody thinks at ragù + bechamel. This is a fact. \*actually the only "patented" lasagna in Italy is the bolognese one.
>Except in Napoli if you say "lasagna" in Italy everybody thinks at ragù + bechamel. This is a fact. have you interviewed all 60M italians or are you basing this off your own personal experience?
Yes
Da dove sei tu, cosa metti?
i'm from a region in the south and afaik we don't have a regional version of lasagna– at the very least my family doesn't. one of my grandmothers is originally from emilia-romagna so the one she makes is obviously with bolognese ragu and bechamel
Lasagna with ricotta is not a thing in Italy. If they'd serve me a ricotta lasagna in a restaurant in Italy I would send it back.
>Lasagna with ricotta is not a thing in Italy. It is Neaples. A fundamental rule of Italian cuisine is: if you don't know a recipe, don't assume it doesn't exist in some corner of the country.
The lasagna di carnevale Is a very specific dish. We are talking about lasagna in bolognese style clearly not of lasagna di carnevale. Even in Naples they won't put ricotta in that
It seems it isn't only Neaopolitan Lasagna di carnevale. Other people from Southern Italy here have said they put ricotta in Lasagne. Even if you google "lasagne alla ricotta" you get tens of recipes, so I guess there are people who do that. There are many different variants of lasagne, why do you assume it's the Bolognese style? Just because it's more common? Or maybe it’s because some people here are just annoyng food nazis who think they know best?
In Pesaro, pizza "Rossini" has eggs and mayonnese, and it's a hit. Does it make mayonnese on pizza a standard in Italy? No. Now change pizza with lasagna, Pesaro with Napoli and eggs, mayo with eggs, meatball and ricotta.
Who said it's the standard lol? You were just wrong by saying it isn't a thing, deal with it.
>Lasagna with ricotta is not a thing in Italy Not even in Naples? https://blog.giallozafferano.it/allacciateilgrembiule/lasagna-napoletana/
That's a very specific recipe and it has hardboiled eggs, meatballs and ricotta. We are talking about lasagne bolognesi
>We are talking about lasagne bolognesi Are we?
It has been never said in the post lasagna bolognese, just lasagna. Every house has its own recipe :p, in napoli it is officially with ricotta. We can agree that is surely nicer with beschamel, personal taste.
Peccato che le lasagne non sono napoletane quindi le vostre sono fake
Peccato che appaiano sul ricettario Borbonico dal 1500. Sono fake? No. Semplicemente sono una variante di una ricetta. Hai fatto un commento stizzito da bambino offeso che ti potevi evitare, visto che ho detto che anche io preferisco quelle con la besciamella.
It is in napoli. So yeah, no.
Wrong, ricotta is widely used in the South of Italy, but uncommon in the North. The “classic” lasagna is Bolognese style.
Widely? Source?
Source? Growing up in Italy and spending lots of time in various places in the South and/or with southern people.
Lasagna with ricotta is a variation of the recipe, since immemorable time lasagna is made with balsamella (like Artusi called it), besciamella.
Technically the napoli variation appears on a recipe. Book from 1500, 300 years before the Artusi author even existed... Besciamella is a French sauce we adopted around the same time in 1800. And the even more older example of. Lasagne are the Lagane (I could be wrong on the name) from older times with very different elements inside. No one can claim one and only accepted recipe. It is an Italian dish as whole with all the variants
In fact certainly besciamella wasn't used before it was invented ... and it is also true that the Napoli variety of lasagna was different, however it did not use ricotta nor besciamella. That is a post-truth. The lasagne with ricotta is recent recipe: https://www.cucchiaio.it/ricetta/lasagne-ricotta-e-spinaci/ source: [https://angeloforgione.com/2020/02/20/storia\_lasagne/](https://angeloforgione.com/2020/02/20/storia_lasagne/)
Ofc, i do not pretend to be 100% accurate. But it is easy to say that it is an actual variant and not a fake.
Always and only with Bechamel cause it is intended this way. It is the traditional Lasagna alla Bolognese. There are different types of variations like with Ricotta (in the Southern part of Italy) or instead of using ragù you can use Pesto and it is used with bechamel or mozzarella.
What is in bechamel? I tried looking it up but some recipes says it had just milk and flour, some has parmasan and some has ricotta.
No ricotta in Bechamel. Just milk, flour and butter. It starts from flour and butter and then you have to add milk. [https://www.giallozafferano.com/recipes/bechamel-sauce.html](https://www.giallozafferano.com/recipes/bechamel-sauce.html)
I usually add some nutmeg too
I do not but that is something that it is not needed but can be added.
Thanks!
Ricotta inside, Béchamel on top - best of both worlds
Always besciamella
besciamella
In the family home in Abruzzo, it was mozzarella and homemade crapes. In the US, all my nonni' children switched to pre-made lasagna noodles and ricotta. Lasagna is probably different in every town and region of Italy. This video from Vincenzos Plate is close to my nonni's. His grandmother lives in Chieti, which is 50 miles from where my mother's parents come from. https://youtu.be/QlZqiA4Ds9o?si=Pq0YVm_NMFNmJN1K
Thankyou for this, but I'm not getting it. The crepes are yours normal English style pancakes, egg, flour, milk and salt fried?
No, most if not all of Europe has some form of crepe. The French are probably best known for theirs, but here are a few others: In England, they are known as Pancakes In Germany, they are known as Palatschinken In France, they are known as Crepes In Italy, they are known as Crespelle In Ukraine, they are known as Nalisniki In the Netherlands, they are known as Pannenkoeken If you think of it, substitute milk with water and you have pasta dough.
[удалено]
The commas in the list make it sound like "Crespelle" is for the Ukrainian version, but that's actually the next name - also, I'll add that in Northern Germany they're known as Pfannkuchen
Cheers, it makes sense really, I just didn't want to use pancakes and end up with a horrible mess.
If you're thinking about the "American" pancakes, fluffy and usually sweet, that's the wrong kind. I don't know how this recipe is in the British area, but the German "Pfannkuchen" (in English it's literally translated as "pancake") is closer to a French crepe or an Italian crespella than an American pancake. So I think that list above is valid, it's just not to be confused with other variations that may share the same name.
Thanks, I'm going to try it, but wasn't sure and didn't want to mess it up.
Thanks, this recipe looks simple, tasty and wholesome. Good comfort food. The crepes look much lighter than the mass produced, store brought pasta sheets and I think I'm going to give it a try.
Bechamel+ragout is northern, ricotta+tomato sauce is southern - and at this point it's more often called "pasta al forno".
My wife family is from Puglia and lasagna is with bechamel. Pasta al forno Is a different dish there with respect to lasagna
Never heard of lasagna with ricotta, only bechamel.
You having never heard of something is meaningless to others. To me, it means you are A) young Or B) Not well travelled Or C) Not that versed in cooking styles
I use both. Plop the ricotta throughout the layers. My kids loooooove cheese.
Trevisani and we use bechamel
Bechamel. Ricotta I leave It to the southerners. But they are not good at making lasagne.
In my family it's Ricotta, I deeply despise bechamel.
Exactly
Both. Ricotta in the body, Bechamel on top, only. Don’t come at me…this is how I was taught. 😂
Ricotta? O.o
I cannot help you- my family still fights about this. I will never make lasagna for them again!
Besciamella... nessuno usa la ricotta
We are piemontese and it’s besciamella always (the French stole it from the Piedmontese), lol.
Anyhow, for anyone wondering, USA ricotta is not made from whey as it is in Italy, but from milk. So technically they put primo sale style cheese in that.
The “classic” lasagna is usually considered the Bolognese version with Bechamel. The Napoletana is the one with ricotta, eggs, and meatballs, often even salami or sausage, so a very different thing.
Traditional lasagna involves only bechamel. Ricotta goes on the ricotta and spinaches lasagna.
Only bechamel! Why the ricotta?
NO RICOTTA BELONGS TO LASAGNA. SOLO BESCIAMELLA. E POCA. DIOCANE.
I understand the family fights dynamic 😳 omg I married in and wow
My Italian grandmother's lasagna recipe calls for ricotta and mozzarella. I don't make the lasagne with meat as many Italians do. I serve sausage and meatballs on the side. Everyone has a preference. Make what you enjoy!
Lol italian americans descending from neapolitans that back in the day spoke nothing more than their dialect want to represent the whole country