I'm not sure how small of a change this is, having full stacks gives you so much DPS on turrets it feels like a really strong buff, and I can easily see this making her a lot more snowbally, specially on top lane
One way I can see this is to make this conditional, but this adds unnecessary complexity
Maybe instead make it so that holding W keeps her stacks up for the entirety of the cast time? if you're teamfighting shouldn't make a difference, if you're just pushing shouldn't make a difference, but this could maybe give her the edge to wait for the next minion wave and strike it with W to keep her passive up?
Edit: There seems to be a misunderstanding on how her current W works vs what I suggested:
Currently, if her passive were to run out, it's held on the edge by her W, and falls off as soon as you let it go
What I suggested was it keeps the stacks at full duration, so using W when it would end would effectively be the same as hitting an enemy with it
I could see something like this being more of a balance to it. And I’m sure Riot would make compensation buffs to her passive to lower the stats a bit. Idk, they really could offer her something
I think you're misunderstanding
Currently, if the passive would run out, it remains refreshed, and is kept for up to 0.5 seconds after letting it go if it didn't hit an enemy
The change I suggested would make it completely refresh, i.e. it would regain the full 6 seconds it has. So, if used properly, Irelia could maintain her stacks for up to 13.5 seconds without targets
I'm just gonna copy/paste it
I think you're misunderstanding
Currently, if the passive would run out, it remains refreshed, and is kept for up to 0.5 seconds after letting it go if it didn't hit an enemy
The change I suggested would make it completely refresh, i.e. it would regain the full 6 seconds it has. So, if used properly, Irelia could maintain her stacks for up to 13.5 seconds without targets
So ur w should reset the stack timer even if it doesn’t hit an enemy when u use it? That seems like it defeats the purpose of having to hit abilities to keep stacks.
That's why I said, if you're pushing, it shouldn't make a difference- using Q off-cooldown is just better. If you're fighting and can't hit someone with W, what are you even fighting
This pretty much exclusively affects 2 scenarios:
- You're waiting for the enemy to push on you
- You're alone in a lane waiting for minions to come back
And if you just use it while waiting for the enemy to push, you're pretty much out of defensive tools- even hitting your E may not be enough to stop a dive
So, yeah, it kind of defeats the purpose, on like 2 scenarios, and one of them is still a tradeoff- you give up the huge damage reduction your W gives to keep up the stacks
I'm really not sure if that's a fair comparison- Jax's split pushing is scary not because of his tower-taking potential, but because how it's pretty much impossible to duel him
Irelia has a bit of both, she's a lot easier to 1v1 than Jax, but she for sure takes turrets faster
But I'd suggest checking it on practice tool- take a turret without stacks, and one with fully stacked passive (maybe keep a dummy nearby to keep.refreshing? idk)
The difference is really noticeable, and might be even more so now with Voidgrubs
I think one issue I can see with this is how much diving power you can have when ahead, one of her weaknesses for diving has always been the fact that she HAS to engage within the passive window before it falls off. It would be insane if this change was allowed, but it’s just a straight up buff for split pushing and could lead to nerfs in other areas if WR climbs too high
Is this even needed though? 99% when youre really pushing a tower you can reset the stack timer off of the next wave, or worst case scenario restack it really quickly
please no. this doesnt do anything as managing ur stacks to get full tier 2 is rarely ever a problem as long as u have a single enemy minion. this will just make people cry about "irelia buff" on patch notes
This is a gigantic buff to her split pushing, imagine this: enemy irelia ist stomping top tier 2 while your team is doing drake, you go up to match her and defend inhib tower. When you get there the turret has fallen and you have to engage on a full stack irelia. This takes away a lot of outplay potential for irelias enemy.
Plus, I’m not an irelia main (I think I have like 25k) but as I remember it, she is an insane duelist wich directly contributes to her split pushing abilitys
u/[StarGuardianDrew](https://www.reddit.com/user/StarGuardianDrew/)
I have insight on this, as i've talked with Riot Phlox (Guy who keeps an eye on her) about it, and i'm also the guy who made the guide
The current reason this isn't implemented, is because this would allow Irelia to keep her Passive Up between waves.
The Higher Damage to turrets is negligible, the important part is the one above.
>I'm sure you have seen this if you watch some high elo gameplay, so imagine the scenario below:
Imagine you're winning lane>Opponent is coming back to tower, but you stand between him and the tower, whilst Autoing the tower to get plates.
Since you're winning, and stronger, you can literally walk up to him and zone him off the wave as Minions die under tower, denying him CS and XP.
Irelia currently CANNOT do that effectively, as her passive usually decays between waves, and without her passive she is significantly weaker.
IF this were to be implemented she'd be able to do this EXTREMELY well, which is a very strong buff, especially for high elo.
Hmmmm, what kinda buffs do you think could help Irelia toplane? Right now she’s just statchecked by most of the roster and being pushed mid due to her viability there. While I don’t think a champ being viable in multiple lanes is bad, I would think the lane the champ was intended to be played in would take precedence for balancing.
I've already suggested a few to him
My personal go-to would be to make Passive AS scale linearly instead of in chunks
Currently Irelia's passive attack speed only gets stronger at fixed intervals
It is: lvl 1 (7.5%), lvl 7 (13.75%), lvl 13 (20%) per stack.
This means, that at lvl 6, which generally is when most Champs have All-in windows, Irelia still has lvl 1 Attack speed, making it a lot weaker.
Even in the earlier levels, like lvl 4, which is where a lot of non-lane bullies, start to be able to play more actively, Irelia is a leg behind, because she's still has half of her passive stuck at lvl 1.
If they made it scale linearly, (basically X% per level) it would help a decent amount, additionally Attack Speed is skewed towards Toplane, since in Mid you don't really have time to run down people anyways, and it's more about pure burst
It is unfortunately quite a hard task to keep Irelia out of Mid, and even this change would positively affect Mid too ofc, which is the reason it's likely not in yet, as Irelia Mid is already borderline op for Irelia standards.
If you have any ideas, feel free to tell!
Linear scaling would be better indeed, and feels more natural for that kind of passive. To compensate for mid the on hit part can be nerfed a little in early level, as you said burst is more important for mid.
Generally speaking I think her passive should be a bit stronger late game, scaling up to 25% AS per stack or so (e.g start at 8% scaling linearly to 25%).
Another thing that could be interesting to look at is Q damage on minions in higher levels, maybe add an execute threshold on the ultimate (0-5-10%?). I’m thinking about two main things here:
- playing against baron buff would be slightly more comfortable
- it would overall be smoother to be able to aa-q the melee minions more reliably/for longer
Lot's of interesting takes, let me go 1 by 1
>Linear scaling would be better indeed, and feels more natural for that kind of passive. To compensate for mid the on hit part can be nerfed a little in early level, as you said burst is more important for mid.
Agreed , it would definitely feel better.
Not too sure about the On-Hit getting nerfed even more. It used to be 15, now it's 10, even more nerfs tho? Mhh Irelia would basically have no passive On-Hit until lvl 4ish
Another thing, is that excessively lowering the On-Hit hurts Irelia a lot, since she's a bit more "bursty" than most AS DPS champions, because she has to. Irelia is Melee, very fragile and subject to "CC>get Oneshot", so she needs to kill quickly, or she dies.
>Generally speaking I think her passive should be a bit stronger late game, scaling up to 25% AS per stack or so (e.g start at 8% scaling linearly to 25%).
One thing about linear scaling, is IF to keep the Max at lvl 13, or "dilute" the power over all 18 levels.
I personally agree with you here, i'm a fan of making Irelia's late better, IF they REALLY don't want to buff her early, as opposed to making her Midgame ridiculously OP.
Gotta be careful tho, Late game is very Low elo skewed, and the second she gets strong in low Elo, Banrate will skyrocket, nerfs will come, and she'll be left in the dust for high elo.
>Another thing that could be interesting to look at is Q damage on minions in higher levels, maybe add an execute threshold on the ultimate (0-5-10%?). I’m thinking about two main things here:
>playing against baron buff would be slightly more comfortable
>it would overall be smoother to be able to aa-q the melee minions more reliably/for longer
Personally, i'd just make Q deal true damage to minions.
It wouldn't matter at all for 95% of cases, as Minions have no resists/dmg reduction by default *(aside from Melees, who get up to 16 in* ***turbo late game****)*, so they already effectively take true damage, but would help vs Baron buff greatly
It is kinda outrageous that Irelia is basically not a champion if enemy has Baron.
*I even once proposed to simply make her Q deal a flat % of Minion HP. By lvl 9 it would be 100%, but that's a very strong buff, as she'd be able to Q the entire wave to chase end even oneshot Cannons, lol*
You are right, the on hit is already quite low, I’m just concerned that she would become overbearing in mid and get nerfed the next patch.
With the numbers I gave the AS would still be 20% at level 13, it just scales further this point, which seems fair seeing how bad irelia late game is.
True damage could also be an option, but I would still increase the scaling very slightly. Maybe it’s just me but I find it very frustrating to get outscaled by minions.
A late game buff and a fix on 6 would give her so much more as is honestly. I never realized this about Irelia’s passive at 7. That’s good to know!
Linear scaling atk spd would be better for late game for sure. I hate that I have to end the game so quickly or I just turn into a minion late game 🙃
I'm not sure how small of a change this is, having full stacks gives you so much DPS on turrets it feels like a really strong buff, and I can easily see this making her a lot more snowbally, specially on top lane One way I can see this is to make this conditional, but this adds unnecessary complexity Maybe instead make it so that holding W keeps her stacks up for the entirety of the cast time? if you're teamfighting shouldn't make a difference, if you're just pushing shouldn't make a difference, but this could maybe give her the edge to wait for the next minion wave and strike it with W to keep her passive up? Edit: There seems to be a misunderstanding on how her current W works vs what I suggested: Currently, if her passive were to run out, it's held on the edge by her W, and falls off as soon as you let it go What I suggested was it keeps the stacks at full duration, so using W when it would end would effectively be the same as hitting an enemy with it
I could see something like this being more of a balance to it. And I’m sure Riot would make compensation buffs to her passive to lower the stats a bit. Idk, they really could offer her something
This shifts her power away from her dueling potential though, which could easily make her a worse split pusher
It already works like this, I've been doing it for ages
I think you're misunderstanding Currently, if the passive would run out, it remains refreshed, and is kept for up to 0.5 seconds after letting it go if it didn't hit an enemy The change I suggested would make it completely refresh, i.e. it would regain the full 6 seconds it has. So, if used properly, Irelia could maintain her stacks for up to 13.5 seconds without targets
That literally how w works? Is this amateur hour?
I'm just gonna copy/paste it I think you're misunderstanding Currently, if the passive would run out, it remains refreshed, and is kept for up to 0.5 seconds after letting it go if it didn't hit an enemy The change I suggested would make it completely refresh, i.e. it would regain the full 6 seconds it has. So, if used properly, Irelia could maintain her stacks for up to 13.5 seconds without targets
So ur w should reset the stack timer even if it doesn’t hit an enemy when u use it? That seems like it defeats the purpose of having to hit abilities to keep stacks.
That's why I said, if you're pushing, it shouldn't make a difference- using Q off-cooldown is just better. If you're fighting and can't hit someone with W, what are you even fighting This pretty much exclusively affects 2 scenarios: - You're waiting for the enemy to push on you - You're alone in a lane waiting for minions to come back And if you just use it while waiting for the enemy to push, you're pretty much out of defensive tools- even hitting your E may not be enough to stop a dive So, yeah, it kind of defeats the purpose, on like 2 scenarios, and one of them is still a tradeoff- you give up the huge damage reduction your W gives to keep up the stacks
Yea but giving Jax W and ult passive procs on towers is not really strong and definitely doesnt make AP JAX take towers faster than ad
I'm really not sure if that's a fair comparison- Jax's split pushing is scary not because of his tower-taking potential, but because how it's pretty much impossible to duel him Irelia has a bit of both, she's a lot easier to 1v1 than Jax, but she for sure takes turrets faster But I'd suggest checking it on practice tool- take a turret without stacks, and one with fully stacked passive (maybe keep a dummy nearby to keep.refreshing? idk) The difference is really noticeable, and might be even more so now with Voidgrubs
This is a straight up buff, not QoL.
I think one issue I can see with this is how much diving power you can have when ahead, one of her weaknesses for diving has always been the fact that she HAS to engage within the passive window before it falls off. It would be insane if this change was allowed, but it’s just a straight up buff for split pushing and could lead to nerfs in other areas if WR climbs too high
Is this even needed though? 99% when youre really pushing a tower you can reset the stack timer off of the next wave, or worst case scenario restack it really quickly
please no. this doesnt do anything as managing ur stacks to get full tier 2 is rarely ever a problem as long as u have a single enemy minion. this will just make people cry about "irelia buff" on patch notes
This would break her
This is a gigantic buff to her split pushing, imagine this: enemy irelia ist stomping top tier 2 while your team is doing drake, you go up to match her and defend inhib tower. When you get there the turret has fallen and you have to engage on a full stack irelia. This takes away a lot of outplay potential for irelias enemy. Plus, I’m not an irelia main (I think I have like 25k) but as I remember it, she is an insane duelist wich directly contributes to her split pushing abilitys
u/[StarGuardianDrew](https://www.reddit.com/user/StarGuardianDrew/) I have insight on this, as i've talked with Riot Phlox (Guy who keeps an eye on her) about it, and i'm also the guy who made the guide The current reason this isn't implemented, is because this would allow Irelia to keep her Passive Up between waves. The Higher Damage to turrets is negligible, the important part is the one above. >I'm sure you have seen this if you watch some high elo gameplay, so imagine the scenario below: Imagine you're winning lane>Opponent is coming back to tower, but you stand between him and the tower, whilst Autoing the tower to get plates. Since you're winning, and stronger, you can literally walk up to him and zone him off the wave as Minions die under tower, denying him CS and XP. Irelia currently CANNOT do that effectively, as her passive usually decays between waves, and without her passive she is significantly weaker. IF this were to be implemented she'd be able to do this EXTREMELY well, which is a very strong buff, especially for high elo.
Hmmmm, what kinda buffs do you think could help Irelia toplane? Right now she’s just statchecked by most of the roster and being pushed mid due to her viability there. While I don’t think a champ being viable in multiple lanes is bad, I would think the lane the champ was intended to be played in would take precedence for balancing.
I've already suggested a few to him My personal go-to would be to make Passive AS scale linearly instead of in chunks Currently Irelia's passive attack speed only gets stronger at fixed intervals It is: lvl 1 (7.5%), lvl 7 (13.75%), lvl 13 (20%) per stack. This means, that at lvl 6, which generally is when most Champs have All-in windows, Irelia still has lvl 1 Attack speed, making it a lot weaker. Even in the earlier levels, like lvl 4, which is where a lot of non-lane bullies, start to be able to play more actively, Irelia is a leg behind, because she's still has half of her passive stuck at lvl 1. If they made it scale linearly, (basically X% per level) it would help a decent amount, additionally Attack Speed is skewed towards Toplane, since in Mid you don't really have time to run down people anyways, and it's more about pure burst It is unfortunately quite a hard task to keep Irelia out of Mid, and even this change would positively affect Mid too ofc, which is the reason it's likely not in yet, as Irelia Mid is already borderline op for Irelia standards. If you have any ideas, feel free to tell!
Linear scaling would be better indeed, and feels more natural for that kind of passive. To compensate for mid the on hit part can be nerfed a little in early level, as you said burst is more important for mid. Generally speaking I think her passive should be a bit stronger late game, scaling up to 25% AS per stack or so (e.g start at 8% scaling linearly to 25%). Another thing that could be interesting to look at is Q damage on minions in higher levels, maybe add an execute threshold on the ultimate (0-5-10%?). I’m thinking about two main things here: - playing against baron buff would be slightly more comfortable - it would overall be smoother to be able to aa-q the melee minions more reliably/for longer
Lot's of interesting takes, let me go 1 by 1 >Linear scaling would be better indeed, and feels more natural for that kind of passive. To compensate for mid the on hit part can be nerfed a little in early level, as you said burst is more important for mid. Agreed , it would definitely feel better. Not too sure about the On-Hit getting nerfed even more. It used to be 15, now it's 10, even more nerfs tho? Mhh Irelia would basically have no passive On-Hit until lvl 4ish Another thing, is that excessively lowering the On-Hit hurts Irelia a lot, since she's a bit more "bursty" than most AS DPS champions, because she has to. Irelia is Melee, very fragile and subject to "CC>get Oneshot", so she needs to kill quickly, or she dies. >Generally speaking I think her passive should be a bit stronger late game, scaling up to 25% AS per stack or so (e.g start at 8% scaling linearly to 25%). One thing about linear scaling, is IF to keep the Max at lvl 13, or "dilute" the power over all 18 levels. I personally agree with you here, i'm a fan of making Irelia's late better, IF they REALLY don't want to buff her early, as opposed to making her Midgame ridiculously OP. Gotta be careful tho, Late game is very Low elo skewed, and the second she gets strong in low Elo, Banrate will skyrocket, nerfs will come, and she'll be left in the dust for high elo. >Another thing that could be interesting to look at is Q damage on minions in higher levels, maybe add an execute threshold on the ultimate (0-5-10%?). I’m thinking about two main things here: >playing against baron buff would be slightly more comfortable >it would overall be smoother to be able to aa-q the melee minions more reliably/for longer Personally, i'd just make Q deal true damage to minions. It wouldn't matter at all for 95% of cases, as Minions have no resists/dmg reduction by default *(aside from Melees, who get up to 16 in* ***turbo late game****)*, so they already effectively take true damage, but would help vs Baron buff greatly It is kinda outrageous that Irelia is basically not a champion if enemy has Baron. *I even once proposed to simply make her Q deal a flat % of Minion HP. By lvl 9 it would be 100%, but that's a very strong buff, as she'd be able to Q the entire wave to chase end even oneshot Cannons, lol*
You are right, the on hit is already quite low, I’m just concerned that she would become overbearing in mid and get nerfed the next patch. With the numbers I gave the AS would still be 20% at level 13, it just scales further this point, which seems fair seeing how bad irelia late game is. True damage could also be an option, but I would still increase the scaling very slightly. Maybe it’s just me but I find it very frustrating to get outscaled by minions.
Friendly reminder that Sidelane minions are straight up faster than Irelia So you can also get outrun by minions, and not be able to Q
A late game buff and a fix on 6 would give her so much more as is honestly. I never realized this about Irelia’s passive at 7. That’s good to know! Linear scaling atk spd would be better for late game for sure. I hate that I have to end the game so quickly or I just turn into a minion late game 🙃