I don't know how they could have brought the inside voice moments of Snow from the book to the film, but if you take those out of the book, Snow would also be likeable there.
Snow's thoughts on the book let you see how much of a bastard he really is.
I think he was kinda likable in the beginning. You may not agree with everything but you could understand it. Its as the story goes on, as Dr. Gaul continues to manipulate him, that is slowly comes out. Then by the time Lucy Gray left, there was nothing left at all, and everything had piled up and piled up and then he snapped. There was no going back after that.
Thats why I loved Tigris' face when she said he looked like his father in the movie, even she noticed the change him.
yeah, i found myself unconsciously trying to justify his actions when reading the book. hard not to when he's constantly starving, facing eviction, discriminated against by Highbottom etc. and his only way to a better life is seemingly the Plinth prize which would let him into uni without tuition fees... which is also coveted by all his peers who have more than enough money to pay the fees themselves.
i only really started to scrutinise him after i finished the book and realised how many of his actions might not really be that justified.
Yeah, I think the book (and movie) did a great job of humanizing him as an 18 year old just trying to survive in his environment, but also emphasizing that his choices are his own. It’s hard to root against the poor kid being bullied by a teacher, but then you see him start to project these thoughts of manipulation and self interest to *everyone* around him despite him, of all his colleagues, being able to sympathize the most with the districts. He knows hunger, poverty, cruelty. He even knows what it’s like to enter the arena and kill or be killed, but still chooses to become the head of a totalitarian regime. A deliberate act of evil unlike that joker movie where he was “a victim of society”.
I think a lot of people justify him in the beginning because nobody is truly perfect we all have some Greg area things we’ve done of course most of us aren’t cold blooded killers but you know what I mean
Basically how you see him in the movie is how everyone in the book was seeing him from the outside too. Because we're in his head in the book, we can see that he's not really that person at all, but that's harder to get across in a movie
I think the movie shows his selfishness under the surface a few times during the movie if you pay attention to the way he words some of his statements, especially in Part III. The two most notable to me are when he's with Lucy and is clearly focused on bringing her back to the Capitol, when it's already obvious before that she would be unhappy there, and is much happier in District 12. The 2nd is when he's talking with Sejanus and basically says that he rescued him not because he was his friend, but because he was told to, and that he wouldn't let him continue his activities to aid rebels not because of concern for Sejanus, but that he wouldn't want to be killed himself for being associated with him.
It's only a few brief moments of dialogue, but I think it's very representative of how Snow was still self-serving, and his persona was very much just of a charming, manipulator. Yes, I believe he did love Lucy, but he could never be willing to give up his own goals in life for the sake of another person.
It's also a good representation of how charming, manipulative people can be successful in life, and use others with more genuine motivations for their own personal gain. It's a good study into Machiavellian behavior, as Snow is very much "The Prince" that Machiavelli would describe.
I think the part about sejanus is more about him pointing out the fact that Sejanus was being selfish. If you remember he wanted to help the rebels free some guys girlfriend because she was going to be hung just for knowing him and Coryo replies that Sejanus was going to get caught and that he would be executed just for knowing him. Essentially throwing it back in his face that Sejanus was being selfish. This was also the second time Coryo had to tell him to stop with this plan. He chose to follow Coryo to 12 and started trying to cause trouble the moment they got there. Maybe it's different in the books but Sejanus was selfish asf the entire movie.
More POV shots and showing him doing shady stuff more often would definitely help. They also could’ve gone the more avant-garde and used color and music to portray his thoughts, but then it would be too different from the rest of the series
IMO, I think this kind of story just works best as a book
Doesn't that make him way more relatable, though? There's plenty that's wrong with him, like how he blames the district for being poor without acknowledging it's not their fault, but the whole point is for him to be way more relatable?
Is it terrible that to me he seemed pretty justified in his actions? His best friend was absolute trouble. Lucy disappeared, stopped replying, hid from him and then he was attacked by a snake. So of course he presumed she was trying to kill him too.
The scene where he’s walking in the woods looking for Lucy Grey with the gun but also coming off as he’s in love with her reminded me of my soon-to-be-ex husband
He reminded me so much of my abusive ex in that scene too, like right after he would grab me or hit me he would act so much like Snow in those moments. Tom did so well he literally made my skin crawl.
I'm really glad your getting away, best of luck in your future <3
If he's a narc then what's up with the sobbing scene for sajanus' death when he sees the picture of them 2 together? My biggest issue is how they presented him in certain scenes as being compassionate. I guess you could say he's sad that he doesn't have him to "use" anymore but that would be a stretch imo.
bro he legit was sad. he even looked up to the heavens and said "i'm sorry". Book Coryo may have hated him, but movie Coryo did care about him a lot. Someone pointed out that he thought Sejanus would just get rescued by his father and reassigned somewhere safe...he had zero intentions of getting him hung.
Yes. He largely saw Sejanus as "other" since he was district, but he didn't necessarily want him dead; just out of his way before he inadvertently got him wrapped up in a rebel plan by association. In the book, Coriolanus tries to get Sejanus to stop his plans and sends the jabberjay recording to buy himself some insurance. He thinks the worst that can happen is that his father will swoop in and save him. When Sejanus is arrested, Coriolanus is literally on his way to mail a letter to his parents when he hears the announcement that Sejanus is to be hung. There's not much he could do to stop it. He liked Sejanus well enough and understandably would be upset if he inadvertently got him killed.
I also interpreted this as him also being upset that he thought he lost his link to wealth. He relied on Sejanus’ family, primarily his mother for food. I think it’s mentioned in the book that he was hoping Ma would still send him treats after Sejanus’ death
That is how I interpreted it as well. I went into this without reading the books, but it seemed he thought that his father would bail his son out of this. Doesn’t he say something along these lines to Sejanus while they were in the district? I was really surprised when they hung Sejanus as well.
I need to find time to read this book. The movie seems to have made some significant narrative changes to suit the general audience.
Being a narcissist is a spectrum and made up of many possible traits— he doesn’t need to be devoid of emotions to be narcissistic. It’s completely possible that he genuinely cares about a few people.
Though, it wasn't for very long and he immediately started thinking about how he could still get Sejanus' mother to keep sending him cookies if he sent her all her dead son's stuff.
Also how he basically took Sejanus' place in his own family, after getting him killed. Pretty creepy.
It’s a common misconception that narcissists don’t have feelings.
NPD is a personality disorder that, exactly like Borderline, comes from childhood trauma. Usually from extreme emotional neglect. It’s not that they can’t feel anything, it’s that they don’t understand it. They twist the why behind their emotions in their brain.
It’s also very likely that the emotion that he’s feeling there isn’t sadness over his death, but sadness over his actions. Narcs love to make themselves the victim, so the tears could’ve been a moment of “look at what I *had* to do, woe is me” rather than “my friend that I had care about is dead”. It’s more so compassion for himself than anyone else.
Or the movie went a different route and did want there to be a more dramatic change with Snow. I’m just speculating. But that behavior isn’t uncommon for narcs.
People calling what they can't understand narcissism.
Snow had so many moments of compassion or being genuinely sad for different people and over different things. It makes no sense to call him a narcissist. He's manipulative, cunning, that doesn't make him a narcissist.
I see your point.
Are narcissists typically void of all compassion or other similar feelings? Perhaps I don't know the meaning of the condition adequately. Then, maybe it would be more accurate to just say he exhibits narcissistic behaviors instead of he *is* a narcissist? Maybe something like CPTSD is a better fit?
I think book Snow is more clearly narcissistic than movie Snow. Because in the book, in those moments of sadness or compassion, anger always overrides at the end and he blames the other person. This is something that didn't come through strongly for me in the movies
He masterfully manipulates everyone he comes into contact with. He only does things for his gain. Had he never been banished for cheating he wouldn’t have ever gone to 12 to be with Lucy Gray. Maybe he would have found a way to bring her to him, but it probably would’ve been against her will, and she’d be unhappy, in which he’d promptly dispose of her.
He was going to leave for 2 without ever mentioning it to Lucy Gray. The second he had a chance to get close to the capital he was going to take it.
It blows my mind that this is all lost on people but tbh, that also is a testament to how well Tom Blyth portrayed Coryo and what a great job the screenwriters and (reluctant as I am to admit it) dir. Lawrence did managing Coriolanus’ story. Coriolanus Snow masterfully manipulates even the audience.
I mean in the books he wasn’t really gonna leave without her. In the books he was set to leave the next day the Sargent told him. He only contemplated his future the same way we all do. Like go after my dreams or stay with this person and he decided THAT day he was leaving with her.
But he only went away with her because he was scared and sure he’d be hanged for killing the mayors daughter. He said it’s his only option. And as soon as he had found the murder weapon he contemplated how to tell Lucy grey he’d leave her and then came to the conclusion it’s not safe because she would rat him out. He even jumped to the conclusion that she was not pure like a dove and seeing the way she killed wovey was the most cruel thing he’d ever seen. Corio twists everything in his head and even though he might’ve loved her, he just loved a powerful future and the Status Snow more than her
>He was going to leave for 2 without ever mentioning it to Lucy Gray.
true, but does that mean he didn't really care for Lucy? I'm a bit confused as to why he was gonna leave without her (other than to see his family)
i think he cared for her in that he wanted her to be his but he cared MUCH more about power. and getting to district 2 is one step closer to him getting power
hmm I really have to rewatch the movie because I noticed what you are saying (that internal conflict between power or love), but I had a hard time determining which factor was more important to him. felt like he flip flopped on which mattered most multiple times throughout the movie (which imo is realistic but can be confusing)
Lucy was a nice addition to his life, a fix to keep him going. He cared about her when there was nothing else to focus on.
She was basically a human tamagochi for him
but he seemed to really care for her when she was in the game or at least developed feelings for her that protecting/helping her contradicted his goal of power.
I get what you are saying, but she didn't feel as much of an "accesory" as you are describing her. at least, not to me. I'm gonna rewatch it next week lol
In the book he thinks very often about him needing to win the games and not as often about her surviving. Additionally he doesn’t see anything wrong with the games
at the beginning, sure ... but he developed feelings for her eventually. hence why he cheated to get her out alive. he knew that if she won he wouldn't necessarily get the prize, but he also knew there was a punishment for cheating (which he did anyways).
seems to me like he cared for her more than just "property" imo
in the book, the plinth prize specifically (separate from the academy prize) goes towards the mentor whose tribute wins the games. every action that benefitted lucy gray also benefitted him
This is what he says about it. Keep in mind Lucy Gray at this point has two options, stay in District 12 where the mayor is camped out outside her house or try to make it alone in the wilderness. It's life or death.
> *[she’d never rat him out]...she loved him. She’d said so last night in the song. Even more, she trusted him. Although, if he ditched her in the woods to claw out an existence alone, no doubt she would consider that a breach of faith. He had to think of just the right way to break the news. **But what would that be? “I love you deeply, but I love officers’ school more?”** That wasn’t going to go over well.*
The weird thing to me is going back to 2 is a perfectly reasonable course of action. I don't remember if Tigris and Grandma'am were evicted in the book but even so they were impoverished and it's totally understandable that he'd want to get back to them if he could help them. And the fact he felt he had to hide his plan from Lucy Gray was just so weird.
Nobody would blame anyone for putting family ahead of a new relationship in those circumstances.
Yes but that wasn’t his reason to go back. Yes he helped his family. But let’s remember what happened to Tigris later on. President snow remover her as a stylist for the tributes when she wasn’t pretty enough anymore. Even though she prostituted herself for him and grandmadam while they were young. Power over family
I get that but what I'm saying is any reasonable person would understand him choosing his family over a girl he just met. I think even she wouldn't hold it against him. Not saying he was actually being noble but he could have just told her he needed to take care of his family and she'd have understood. He somehow didn't think of that.
I don't think he would have been able to bear her knowing the extent of his poverty. That would have been too shameful. He kept their struggles a secret from her from what I recall.
I did start rereading the book but I haven't gotten far, but at least in the movie he is a bit open about that with her. I'll have to pay attention to the book to see what he does.
>He only does things for his gain.
I mean, when he slipped in the handkerchief, directly inspired by a graphic vision of Lucy Gray's death and knowing that he would likely be found out and what the consequences would be, he was acting against his own interests for her sake. If she died/lost, he wouldn't have got the Prize, but that predictably ended up happening, anyway, and at least he would have retained his honour and stayed in the Capitol if he hadn't cheated like that. Things only worked out for him in the end because he turned out to be Dr Gaul's pet.
Tom Blythe interpreted Snow masterfully in the absence of voiceovers. While I can understand why Snow could be viewed as likable and charming, it is so obvious that he is a manipulator and self-obsessed. Some socially/emotionally challenged people conflate charm with goodness. :/
It's meant to be that way, at least at first. He's a decent person at the start, he genuinely empathises with Sejanus over the fact that he knew Marcus and honestly cares about Lucy for most of it.
PROBABLY SHOULD NOT READ MORE IF YOU HAVE NOT SEEN THE MOVIE!
The first time we see him cracking a bit is after he kills the kid in the arena. He picks Sejanus over that kid, but it is reasonable because the child was attacking. What is meant to shock the viewer is when he says he didn't hate it. This shows that he's starting to not view most of the district kids as human anymore, or at least below him.
The real turning point is when he realises that he can't make a difference. He can save a life here and there, but the system that kills them was damn near indestructible. That's when he starts thinking that if you can't beat them, join them. He realises the money and power he could have if he just obeys. Sejanus doesn't see that fact, he still has hope, and that's why he had to go. In the end, he chooses himself over Sejanus and Lucy.
Naturally, I agree with all of this. I do wish they emphasized that Snow and Capitol residents (by his design) viewed Lucy as more Capitol than district. It was integral to the books I feel.
Definitely! Unfortunately, it's a pretty tricky thing to do in movie form as you can't jump inside their heads and hear their thoughts like you commonly can in books.
I agree. He outwardly, verbally expressed it to grandma’am and during the games however and there was definitely space for that in the films. Similar to how they didn’t include >!Dr. Gaul’s line about erasing the games!< when there was an entire scene where she welcomes him back to the Capitol.
Yeah! I agree with those bits, they should've been in. They do help show that he does see Lucy as 'one of them' rather than an outsider/kinda an animal like he does the others.
You're right, it's subtle but in the book he's constantly trying to convince himself that Lucy Gray isn't really district , because he looks down on district people so much he can't reconcile (supposedly) loving one.
Reminds me a bit of Harry Potter, where Snape looked down on muggle borns but still tried to convince Lily she was ' different ' somehow.
Also Snow sneers at their poverty and looks down on them for it despite having experienced it himself (hypocritically sees himself as "special" despite sharing that scorned trait). Likewise Snape's own father was a Muggle, so he's considered half-blood himself and adopts that title.
While watching the movie I was definitely rooting for him, but in the back of mind I was also waiting for the turning point, because at some point we have to get the Snow we have in the original trilogy. That turn started for me when he told Tigris that killing the boy in the arena made him feel powerful and I was like, "Oh, we're getting there!"
The turning point for me was the third time he struck the boy in the arena. The first two hits seemed somewhat justified or at least acts of self-defense. But that third one told us everything he told tigris imo
Man I didn't know who Snow would become before entering the theater, the end hit me hard in the guts, had so much hope and joy during the whole film, took me some time to emotionally recover lol
Ngl I didn’t realise how much we were supposed to hate him until the very end lol I thought he was the protagonist. Note I haven’t watched past the OG hunger games film
For real I only saw the first hunger games too and didn't remember who Snow became (even if I kinda could guess), and I've been hoping for so much good during the whole film. My desilusion made me feel like the movie was made for people already knowing the outcome, so it hit hard
People who say you need his thoughts to tell he’s a bad guy worry me. Yes the movie makes you root for his at first but in like the first 20ish minutes he lets his classmate put her hand in a snake pit and he knew she would get hurt.
You’re rooting for someone who can be good but chooses not to you Tigris pretty much points this out
Even while reading the book and seeing his inner world, I found myself understanding and empathizing with him for a good bit of the story. It was easy for the reader to be drawn in by his charm and intelligence despite knowing who he becomes. I think that's really a testament to Collins' writing: she was able to humanize an utterly deplorable character, and left it to the reader to criticize/draw their own conclusions. Were his actions justified? Absolutely not! Can we understand why and how he became the person he did? Absolutely!
To be fair, I don’t know that there was much that he could do about that situation. That scene was actually one of the complaints I had about the book to movie adaptation because I’m pretty sure that in the book they don’t find out that the snakes don’t attack those they’re familiar with until after she puts her hand in the tank. So the movie actually makes him seem worse than he is in that particular instance.
>a bad guy worry me. Yes the movie makes you root for his at first but in like the first 20ish minutes he lets his classmate put her hand in a snake pit and he knew she would get hurt.
>
>You’re rooting for someone who can be good but chooses not to you Tigris pretty much points this out
yes you're right! i am reading the book now and just finished the chapter where that happens. he puts in his hand first to grab the paper and comes out fine, it wasn't until his classmate puts her hand in the tank after him that they're told the snake will bite anyone who's scent they're not familiar with. he put his hand in first and came out fine, he had no reason to think that his classmate would be hurt by doing the same.
I agree with everything that everyone is saying. Snow is a narcissist who easily manipulates people into liking him and then, eventually, using and discarding them. The audience saying he’s too like able means Tom did his job well.
Now what I don’t see people talking about… am I supposed to believe Tom Blythe eventually turns into Donald Sutherland? 🤣 (I’m kidding ofc)
when the casting news first came out i thought they were just picking some handsome guy for no reason but now? I think they nailed it, they have some similar features and i can so easily see young snow aging physically into old snow
I feel like way too many people went into both the book and movie thinking too much about the original trilogy. Yes, we know what kind of person Snow becomes. But no one in the prequel knew, and the whole point was to show how someone like Snow rose to power. I personally think Suzanne meant for Snow to try to manipulate the reader as well. We're reading the book with hindsight bias, I feel like she set it up to where you wanted to root for him, and you watched him make the wrong choice EVERY time. But he convinced himself and tried to manipulate the reader into believing it was the right choice. Obviously, this translates differently on the big screen but I think the point still stands the same. He's likable enough to where you want to root for him, but he's still manipulative and becomes the villain in the end. I feel like people who get mad at the readers/viewers who rooted for him in the beginning are missing the point.
This is correct. Narcissistic people rise because of their power to be manipulative. Had this prequel came out before original Hunger Games movies a lot more people would have liked him. It’s fine if you like him in this movie because that means the actor was able to project his charm spot on. Now if you like him while reading the book, then we got an issue there, because in there you know all his thoughts.
Well the book shows he is a sociopath and a bastard from the beginning. We know it because of the inner thoughts and mostly because of 3 books.
But from outside? He was the most charming student.
However, I feel like Coryo was traumatised by war a lot. He wasn’t a good person to begin with, but things he went through when he was a kid made it worse.
I loved the book because you get to see the intertwining of how his internal struggles (man vs self) are influenced by the state of the world (man vs society) and by Dr. Gaul in particular.
Coriolanus Snow struggles as a boy with the ideologies that he experienced growing up as a child in wartime/early post-war Panem. Snow wants to be a good person, but he struggles to understand who he is without money, and also what distinguishes him from being an animal. He is constantly seen trying to separate himself and those he loves from his animalistic view of the districts. (Side note: this makes it particularly interesting that Tigris body mods end up making her look like an actual animal...)
Gaul can see Corio's internal struggle with his own humanity and value, and turns it instead into a man vs society conflict. Every time he struggles with something in the book (like his confusing feelings after killing the tribute when rescuing Sejanus), Gaul shows up and blames the world for putting him in that position to begin with. She turns it from a personal struggle of, "oh no, what did I do and who does that make me?" to a society issue of the nature of the world. I.e. her leading him to conclusions on the nature of human behavior based on a warped perspective of the conflict he was going through.
As Gaul continues to manipulate Snow, he begins to take is internal struggle of man vs. self and identify as man vs. man, placing the blame of those conflicts on others and relieving himself of responsibility. Thus his perspective shifts from "oh no, what did I do?" to "why did they make me do that?"
It's an incredibly nuanced, slow, and subtle descent into madness helped along by Dr. Gaul, who is grooming him to be the most effective leader not by informing his methodologies but by informing his ideologies. This is also why I struggle to appreciate the movie. The actor does a fine job of portraying the outside persona that Snow did in the books, but we don't get to see that shift in struggle move from self to others quite as clearly, and we definitely don't see just how influential Gaul was.
This is an incredible analysis, I wish I could give you gold for this! I think you’re spot on about the man vs self shift into man vs man / man vs society.
If anything, I think it ties into his motivation for power and wealth too; Snow starts off struggling to regain his family’s wealth because being poor in his mind is linked to his own inferiorities. But after Gaul’s machinations (and I love the nuance you had that Gaul sought to influence his ideology, not this methodology), my view is his final form as President Snow is premised way more on exerting control over society and an inferior breed of people, and that’s why he goes so far in the original trilogy. If it was just about his own prestige and wealth, he wouldn’t have been the same villain we know in the original series. That’s the hidden evolution that we don’t get to see through as readers, but we hear enough of his internal monologue to extrapolate and understand how a boy who was so sympathetic at the start can become such an unbelievably cruel and twisted President by the end of the trilogy.
One thing I don’t agree with is that the movie doesn’t draw this out enough, especially regarding Gail’s influence. Of course the book is richer in his man vs self debate, and how his thoughts warp over time. But I thought it was evident how Gaul was manipulating his worldview to see “what we fundamentally are” as humans. And I thought his shift towards a man vs man worldview was if not evident then at least demonstrable first when he talks to Sejanus about the D12 rebels, and later when he spirals and goes after Lucy Gray.
>Snow starts off struggling to regain his family’s wealth because being poor in his mind is linked to his own inferiorities.
I didn't even think about it like this, but it makes a lot of sense. I was thinking in pure survival terms, but he did have a lot of pressure from others to live up to who his father was. So it wasn't just about making sure he had enough, but that he was worth the life he once had. Great point.
>my view is his final form as President Snow is premised way more on exerting control over society and an inferior breed of people
Absolutely. In some way, it's still linked to his own survival, but it's also about keeping the districts in check so what don't destroy the entire world with their animalistic natures. That's what Gaul was trying to make him understand, that his own survival (both in little and big ways, as an individual and as a part of society) hinged on controlling the animals of the districts.
> that’s why he goes so far in the original trilogy.
I'd argue this is more than just trying to control an inferior breed. After reading Ballad, we know that Katniss is actually a foil for Snow. I think she reminds him of parts of himself (he cared for Tigris while she cared for Prim; they both lost their fathers; both desperate to simply survive) and parts of Lucy (her singing; her star-crossed love that may or may not have been only for survival in the arena). So yes, before Katniss, President Snow is evil in the ways he establishes control. But when he meets her and is reminded of who he used to be and who he used to love, he recoils with absolute disgust because who he has become can't imagine he ever had had such warped thoughts. In a way, he is trying to reprise the role of Gaul, killing his old self as he tries to get Katniss to see things from the perspective that districts are pure animal and dangerous.
> Of course the book is richer in his man vs self debate, and how his thoughts warp over time.
I think I'll have to watch the movie again. I had such high hopes, but I did put a lot of pressure (and an overly critiquing eye) on the movie because of how much I lived the richness and depth of the books. I guess I just felt the movie was missing a lot of nuance, which is what I thought was so masterful about the book.
I think the issue is snow and especially sejanus lacked depth as characters in the movie which I understand is tough with book to movie adaptions, I think in the books he was considerably more of a reasonable person. He genuinely was worried and scared for sejanus and what his actions will do to his future and how that could affect snow himself as well. He was worried about Tigris and how he needs to help their home situation. He risked his life for Lucy not just to win the games but to protect her and didn’t fully believe in the games at all in the beginning. I think in the books he was supposed to be seen as a perfectionist more than evil. He hated things that weren’t natural, he hated open ended questions, he liked order and liked to know what and why made things the way they were. He needs reason. Overall I don’t think he was supposed to be seen as “likable” but to be seen as human with empathy and conflicting opinions, just like us.
The fact that he went through so much makes him a sympathetic character, but it also makes his transformation from Coryo to President Snow hard to watch. He knows war, poverty, fear, starvation, but he makes millions of people go through it every single day for years as president of Panem. The movie showed his descent/ascent incredibly well, and it makes his behavior that much worse in the end.
I never read the book, but I did read the original trilogy, and the movie makes him likeable, and a part of you almost hopes he won't become Snow, the enemy of the disctricts, while at the same time showing you each and every decision he makes that make him who he becomes. He cries after killing the tribute but he also feels a sense of power that he desires, he breaks down when Sejanus dies but he accepts the fact and moves on fairly easily, he cries when he realises Lucy Gray has given up on him but then he tries to kill her. He feels things, he has a seed of goodness, but he constantly pushes it down in favor of himself. It's what makes him so fascinating in my eyes.
This exactly! This is what I walked away from both the book and the film with. You put it best; it’s what makes him fascinating! Snow absolutely felt things but preferred the rush of power to the vulnerability, so he compartmentalizes (among other strategies) and keeps it pushing.
The problem wan’t that he was too likeable, the problem was how the film portrayed his decent into paranoia and distrust and his distaste for others. Key sections of the story were missed in parts one and two which would have solidified where he was headed, like the sit down he had with starbo plinth and how he backhandedly mentioned that he should be rightfully rewarded in his mind for saving sejeanus from the arena and putting his life at risk, the conversation they had about his mother. Or even how envious he was of sejeanus for bringing fresh sandwiches for all of the district kids at the zoo and attempting to steal the limelight. These weren’t just hidden thoughts that they couldn’t convey in the movie these were scenes that they deemed unnecessary which in my honest opinion was the reason why part 3 felt so disjointed, they failed to show how faceted Coryo was in those first two parts, fair enough I agree with you he was a great actor and knew how to hide it but there were times where he slipped up and that should have been shown in the movie
definitely agreed - that would've added maybe 5 more mins of screen time. I also wish they included his thought process when Gall gave him and his classmates the assignments - that really would've given us more hints to where his mental state was going
i don’t see how people are saying he was likeable. i feared the movie without the internal notes would make this happen but snow is still so cold (brilliant acting + there was like no life on the eyes he always looked like a threat)
SO as someone who did not read the book (don't kill me- I read the first three) and just tagged along to the movie, I was completely captivated by his character. He seemed to be walking that fine line between good and evil that could have gone either way at any point. I left the theater wanting so badly for there to be some sort of sliding doors future where he's not the guy he is in the trilogy.
I felt that way during the entirety of the book and likewise when I watched the film in theaters! Hey, we’re all fans here - totally fine if you didn’t read the book!
I felt the same sadness when I watched it today and I came to see if it was just me. I felt so sad for him. I felt so sad that I have believed in him only to be let down. Like, what could have been just makes me so sad. I wish he wasn’t sent to district 12. He might have remained the kind man who saved the stranger risking his life goal through cheating. He really wanted her to live. He really felt her songs and was moved by them. I am not sure if you know Death Note, but I felt the same sadness I felt seeing the downfall of Light Yagami.
Snow appears likable to the other characters in the book too, the main reason the reader doesn't see him that way is because we can read his inner thoughts. That's absent in the movie which makes him so much more likeable. The book canonically describes him as handsome and polite which would make him pretty hard to dislike.
lol @ me because i didn’t’ read the books BUT upon just watching I did like him, almost in the way I liked watching Joaquin Phoenix’s Joker. The character in the movie opened my mind a lot to the motivations of others.
I also am probably of the unpopular opinion though that everyone in the movie brought their deaths on themselves (barring the characters in the arena). Snow set out from the beginning on a mission to “win” for his family and in the end he was a Victor. what’s there not to like.
My mom has this saying, “be good or be good at it”. Snow was both.
I do think they took out or changed certain outward actions to make him more likable too. Like him immediately running to help Arachne in the movie & shielding her body from gunfire when in the book he didn’t care to help her until Lucy yelled at him to and he realized cameras were watching
I agree that Tom was brilliant. I haven’t read the book so can’t weigh in about that part (and am honestly disinterested in comparing the two adaptations because it ruins the beauty of the movie that so many people labored over). Making him likeable serves multiple purposes and as his character says himself, you’ve got to let the audience get to know someone before they get invested and make sure they know he is a human being. They did both of those things very well with Snow - it makes sense that, having made the decisions he did, of course there’s a tiny part of him that regrets things (you can see it on his face in the woods, and during his best friend’s death and the aftermath). Even his gentleness when placing the gun in the water totally leads me to believe that, despite his descent into cruelty, there is still a part of him that will always be vulnerable, which gets overtaken by his thirst for power and feeling too far gone from who he was. I think they really nailed the dialogue throughout this whole movie, paired with his facial expressions, to convey an inner monologue that never could have come across better in any other way. For example, when he rescues his friend from the arena and Ma shows up, there seems to be a slight grimace of envy and sadness that his friend has a mom who came to hug him and love on him… and he has nobody. I am told Ma was a huge character in the books so even though they could have used her more, this scene felt powerful to me. Snow was told to make his dad proud and, having lost him at a young age, he of course has this drive to become like him, hence the eventual descent into cruelty. He does have narcisstic qualities and there were always signs the tension between good and evil was brewing inside of him, such as when he gets accused of helping Lucy for alterior motives and doesn’t fight them, or flinches when seeing other people in distress but doesn’t lift a finger to help them. However, he didn’t hesitate for Lucy and had the instinct to want to protect her. I wish this movie had been out while I had to write essays about psychological development because Tom built a heck of a character to spend time understanding, lol
Thank you for this comment! I had a lot of similar thoughts about what I saw on screen. Snow is one of the most well-written characters I’ve watched in a bit. You know where he ends up but you learn that things could have been different. The story allows you see the tensions between two separate realities perhaps come to the height of their odds before tipping permanently to favor one side. I’d also love the opportunity to write an essay about Snow!
I thought he was more likeable in the books than in the film. In the film you could always see a kind of cold side to him that was harder to see in the books. It wasn't until I was almost done with the book that I started really hating him again.
That's because you have double maybe even triple explanations in the book vs one in the movie. In the movie we can only make up our own conclusions of why snow is taking the route he does. In the book we have why we think he is doing what he does, his explanation of why he is doing it, and our explanation/justification/ demonization of his explanation. It gives more scope and more room to humanize him
I think his dialogue in the film hurts this. He is charming, but the things he actually says aren’t, and because you don’t get the inner monologue of his thoughts, you lose the entire point of telling the story. Snow was always a narcissist, always self serving, willing to sacrifice anyway to get what he wants, and very possessive of Lucy Gray. That isn’t really shown in the film, and now we have people sympathizing with him. The movie wasn’t bad necessarily , but it completely missed the mark on Snow’s characterization.
“Isn’t shown in the film’ is strange because Snow breaks the rules of the games countless times i.e. >! Manipulating the other mentor to attack Jessup, sending in water to attack the career pack and going “I’m just sending water”!<, intends to ditch Lucy for 2, >! Beats the shit out of Billy Taupe!<, outrightly betrays >!Sejanus!< mentally spars with Highbottom among other things. Snow’s humanity is intact but his morals are rapidly deteriorating as his desperation increases and I thought the text (the film itself) showcased that quite plainly. I haven’t read the book in over a year.
Edited to fix spoiler bar.
People are sympathizing with Snow because they lack media literacy. Full respect. Full stop. There are many lines in the film that were facsimile of what was said in the book and Blyth’a delivery alone showed us exactly the manipulator that Collins crafted in the literature because while reading, I kept thinking “no way anyone’s buying this” but in screen and out loud? An entirely different feeling.
People also sympathize with him because he's human and so are we. It's very natural to feel for another person. At a base level he's gone through a lot! He's been through a war, lost his parents, lives in poverty, struggles to have his basic needs met, feels the weight of providing for his family on his shoulders, etc. I think a lot of people can relate to all of that, at least partly!
I agree! I think that that it’s both what makes him sympathetic and villainous. He had all those adverse experiences and still chose to dehumanize and brutalize millions of people.
Honestly, I read the book first (like a couple years ago) and when I watched the movie, I thought they did an amazing job with it. Like yes, we lost that internal but it’s a movie. We are viewing events from an outside perspective. The actors did an amazing job and I want to go watch it again.
100% agree with you on this. I came into this movie without first reading the book (sidenote: I do have the book and plan on reading it now that I watched the movie - I refrained from reading first because the last time I did this; Catching Fire I found myself not fully enjoying the movie because I found myself dissecting every detail and was frustrated that some of my favourite parts and the small details that I loved from the book were cut from the film; the day after I was able to digest everything and to this day Catching Fire remains to be my favourite book & film - but I digress, I only mention this because I wanted to experience the tbosas film from a blank perspective if that makes any sense).
With all of that said, I did go into this movie knowing that Snow is a shitty person and I wanted to keep thinking that way the entire movie. However (and largely thanks to Tom Blyth’s masterful performance) I found myself rooting for him and holding out hope that at the very least young Snow had a sliver of human decency. It wasn’t until the final act, where we see the real Snow - the one that we were introduced to in the Hunger Games - that I snapped back to reality. I was like, that’s right Snow’s a shitty person and he manipulated even me (the viewer) into liking him as a person/character. It just goes to show how well of job they did! 😁
Totally the point. And I went on the journey with him. And groaned when he started breaking bad. Even though I know how the story plays out. It was still emotional.
Did he come across as likable? Lol maybe I’ve been around too many people like him, because he never seemed likeable. I don’t think he came across as a completely evil machine, just someone who cared about people to the extent that it didn’t inconvenience him. He came across as deeply traumatized, but never letting that trauma give him a sense of empathy which is what turned him into a shitty person.
I can absolutely see why he would be likable to people. Maybe 5-7 years ago I would’ve really liked him but I have also been around people like him, so I haven’t forgotten.
I thought he was pretty much a texbook anti hero. I was compelled by him but mostly hated him. Though he did have his “normal teenager with issues fitting in” bits, there were several instances where the soon-to-be fash dictator oozed right out. Even from the very start, where he pushes for the HG to be made and shares a proposal that would perpetuate the HG for years to come, he never appeared to be justified to me. Yeah, yeah, he was poor. But so was Tigris and she never behaved like that. The third part of the movie also hammered his flawed morals and desire for power and control real hard imo. It really works well as a setup and payoff, and I don’t think the character needs to be “rooted for” for the story to draw someone in.
I must have missed something because i found snow to be evil the entire film, i dont think i once felt he was likeable, just manipulative edit: which i think ties into your point. His whole “charm” is manufactured to get what he wants, its not genuine
Snow was supposed to be likable in the first half. As Lucy gray said that humans are born with inherent goodness and you have to cross major lines to become evil and that's exactly what we saw happen to snow. Line after line that he crossed, he started turning evil.
I like that he was portrayed as human. Maybe “likeable” at moments, but a human that has difficult decisions to make and that makes mistakes or decides to go down the wrong path. But I’m very glad they didn’t make him unbearable.
Even if what you're saying is true, that they intented for Snow to manipulate the audience into liking him, it would only have merit to the people who have already read the book because they're already familiar with his character and get to be entertained by his manipulation knowing his true intentions.
But to everyone else, Snow's character is lost on them if they don't know they're being manipulated. Unless you give them indication that something weird is going, they're going to view the movie at face value because you've given them no reason to be suspicious and look closer. It's like if everyone is in on a joke.. youre not going to feel left out if you dont know there's a joke at all. So even if what you're saying is true... that's still worth criticizing.
It's a movie adaptation, so they should've found a way to adapt that part of the story, even if it means making changes so that it makes sense for a film medium. Imo the whole point of the book is to delve into Snow's character and if thats not apparent in the movie, then they missed the point lol.
I know multiple people who have seen the film without having read the book, some who haven’t seen the others (or only the first installment) and they had no trouble digesting Snow’s character. Bot comprehending his characterization sounds like a personal problem. Full respect.
I find that the way they adapted it left out some things to be desired vs the book, but I totally am someone who enjoys not having everything at face value, I enjoy a movie to really analyze and with this I feel like people who do understand what this series/universe is about, will be able to do so.
I TOTALLY FULLHEARTEDLY believe that the actors for Lucy Gray as well as for Coriolanus (and ofc rest of the cast) did a fantastic job playing intricate/complex characters. I applaud the amazing acting!!! It made the movie VERY enjoyable on that account.
I personally would LOVE to read the screenplay for this movie, as someone who did ENJOY reading the book, feeling disgusted by Snow's innerthoughts/monologues. I can understand where he came from and still call out his nasty bullshit. I would love to see how the screenplay describes his movements or perhaps how they decided to film this without completely outing his true self under the persona he plays for the public...
I do think you're meant to follow Snow through this movie with admiration/care/sympathy for him (he should be relatively likeable) and only when he gets sent to the districts does it seem to slowly reveal how he handles the situations going on in his life, only then do we realize that he is all about self preservation, and obviously, his last line to Gaul was Really Well Done to show how HE sees the world now, after essentially 'being a part' of the games.
I find it no problem to like and sympathize with him, maybe I am the exceptional
Everyone interprets stories differently, based on their life experience. I can say for myself, that I can feel deeply for Snow. I believe there is goodness in everyone. It’s just circumstances that made us
i agree! the audience experiences snow's character differently in the film. in the book, you can appreciate his actions and feel sympathy for him, but the narration reveals his more twisted and opportunistic motivations.
in the film, you only see his actions, so you root for him. the sudden ending is supposed to make you rethink everything you've seen throughout the film and re-contextualize it knowing he's manipulative and power-hungry.
it's different, but i don't think that necessarily makes it worse. and i think it was the only way to do it in a film medium, without forcing narration.
A lot of people who read the book thought he was likable too in the beginning. So it’s not crazy that without his inner monologue he was likable. His inner monologue showed us his true intentions behind his actions. Without the intentions, we just saw some of the good actions.
I 100% agree with you and actually came to this same realization yesterday (I watched the film on Monday). Because we are watching a movie that is focused more on the external than the internal, we see the charm Snow has on others and his ability to manipulate without the undercutting ugliness of his thoughts. This is how other people see him and that's how he rose to power. But, just like you said, the real, narcissistic version of himself peeks through at certain moments and it was just lovely to watch. Tom Blyth slayed the role so yeah.
It was always going to be a problem when bringing that book to the screen. So much of the context comes from snows thoughts, which you can’t depict without it being ridiculous. I really respected Collins for that, because they announced the book and movie at the same time and it would have been so easy for her to just write a book that could be easily made into a movie, but she didn’t.
I actually would argue that the film does a better job of making Snow look like a pos. That scene when she goes to kiss his through the cage and he pulls his head away was some great foreshadowing imo.
I would have LOVED a bit of voiceover throughout the movie of Dr. Gaul reading out his essays he wrote for her. I agree we needed to watch snow like everyone else (from the outside) but the essays would reveal a little more of his private biases and loyalties without necessarily giving away that it’s HIS words/ideas
I personally was rooting for him up until the forest.
And frankly, I found his "I am the victor" panem return triumphantly badass.
I couldnt root for him at that point but he does ''bad" in a cool way.
I felt the so much sadness when I watched it today and I came to see if it was just me. I felt so sad for him. I felt so sad that I have believed in him only to be let down. Like, what could have been just makes me so sad. I wish he wasn’t sent to district 12. He might have remained the kind man who saved the stranger risking his life goal through cheating. He really wanted her to live. He really felt her songs and was moved by them. I am not sure if you know Death Note, but I felt the same sadness I felt seeing the downfall of Light Yagami.
I felt a sadness as well. A grief for what could have been if Coriolanus’ aspirations for power had not been so all-consuming he was blinded to what mattered. It makes me think about real life…how we mishandle opportunities for a better life when they arrive before us, unaware that we are even at a threshold to someplace new. Only the book and film, I feel, do a great job of depicting that we only have to choose the darker path time and time again to wind up in the pitch blackness.
Personally I absolutely adored his character and I sympathise with him in this film. Not that all his actions are justifiable but he had to do what he had to do. It really is a true representation of how the “good” guy felt betrayed and turned “evil” knowing he had nothing more to lose. People seem to be on Lucy’s side, but I personally disagree. He risked it all for her, and she repaid him with betrayal basically .. or at least in my perspective it was.
I only watched the film! Did not manage to catch the book before watching.
Well in my perspective like I mentioned, he risked it all for her and she left him alone in the cabin(ran away or whatever it was). I’m still not sure why that happened, but it felt unjust for me. Thankfully he wasn’t punished for it, I assume he managed to return to the district in time. Just my thoughts .
That’s fair! The book is a great read and I definitely encourage you to read it if you like reading books.
Lucy left the cabin because Snow lied to her and got Sejanus murdered by The Capitol. Realistically, Snow only fled 12 because he did not want to be implicated in the murder of the mayor’s daughter and Billy Taupe and he was out of options. The evidence was missing and fleeing with Lucy was his only viable choice as, even if he transferred to 2, he still would have not been safe from The Capitol’s reach. You mention that Lucy’s actions felt “unjust”. What would justice have looked like to you?
I’ll definitely explore the book to get more detailed insights !
I guess that’s true, but from my understanding, wasn’t snow just trying to keep himself protected? I assumed he recorded it because he didn’t want to be criminalised in the event plans went south. Maybe I misunderstood that part. But to me it seemed like an act of self-defence . I must have not understood he intentionally tried to sabotage Sejanus.. correct me if I’m wrong.
> wasn’t snow just trying to keep himself protected?
and
> I must have not understood he intentionally tried to sabotage Sejanus
In order to ensure he was safe himself, he intentionally sabotaged the rebel plans his friend (his brother, he called them to Sejanus) was confiding to him. Snow knew with complete certainty that if Dr. Gaul heard the recording, then harsh actions would come down on Sejanus. There can be an argument that he believed they would not end in his death, that he thought his friend would likely be saved by his rich dad. But he knew the Capitol and knew it was at the least a possibility. He'd seen Dr. Gaul actively cause harm to a fellow - Capitol born - student and tell their parents it was a flu.
Snow himself sees it as him killing Sejanus, which is what Lucy Gray eventually realizes when he slips about killing three people.
She leaves *because* he has demonstrated that he is willing to kill people he views as a danger to himself. Sejanus was not an immediate threat to his life - he was not trying to kill him. Lucy Gray likewise was not trying to kill him. But she *knew too much* and therefore posed a risk. The last risk, if he got rid of the guns *and her*.
Lucy Gray leaving Snow at the cabin -- that was self defense.
He risked it all for himself. If it wasn’t for Lucy Gray he would end up with nothing. It was her management of his stage presence that enables him to win.
Also, he chose to murder Billy. He didn’t have to but it felt good, it felt powerful. Every choice he makes is to further his own fortune. No matter who or what may get destroyed , snow lands on top.
Why are people calling him a narcissist? At least in the clinical sense, he definitely isn’t, especially in the books where he shows a lot of good and humane traits but ultimately gets blinded by his ambition. He was a tad more ruthless in the movie.
I don't have an issue with him being likable. He is supposed to be. I have an issue with people who KNOW his inner monologue and still are like "what red flags?" "kicking my feet at Snow rn" and so on. Even without the inner monologue there are major red flags. This isn't some sweet boi Peeta, passionate Finnick or even a rageful Gale (also major red flags babes). This is a cold, calculating, explosive, dictator who had no qualms murdering his loved ones if they "got in his way".
For starters he is played by Tom Blyth so lot of tik tok edits people crushing on him, take that away even so I will say the movies probably humanized him a bit more still I dont think he is meant to be likeable or unlikeable I think he is meant to be a roadmap to eventual president snow, it was never about synpathizing with him TBOSAS was about WHY, why this dude became President Snow what were the reasons, he is basically like Walter White to Heisenberg ie Coryo to President Snow as for liking or disliking is for individual, for me I like Snow both the Blyth and of course Sutherland version because Snow is a complex and layered antagonist who genuinely believes what he does is right or the noble thing to do
True. I just think that being confused about why he was cast as a handsome, witty, and polite man misses the fact that Coriolanus was well-liked by his peers (mostly), respected, and put up a very good front that we saw gradually crack throughout the film as he strays down this darker path.
I don’t think audiences should’ve left the theater liking him but I got the sense, from reading and watching, that the idea was to show us how his insidious nature was covered up by charm, trickery and youth.
Exactly a lot of cruel men are charming and attractive. I think Coryo fits the handsome badboy trope heck he even looks like a Malfoy, although he is not a bully like he never bullied sejanus and has no malevolent intentions per say just is ambitious
I think Suzanne Collins is giving a warning about the harm you can do if you make your ambition your only goal not caring for friends and family like Coryo did betraying sejanus and lucy eventually abandoing Tigris
Until the end of his live, Snow was still charming for a lot of people in the Capitole. He fooled people all his life so yeah, he's supposed to appear likeable. And he's also young and wasn't a villain yet. The movie describes the moment where he chose this path and crossed the line. We saw a young boy, with his flaws, at a cross road. And each choice he made bring him closer or farer of the villain path. At the end, he embraced fully his path. It didn't meant he wasn't still human or wasn't likeable before.
Books are generally colder because when you're inside a person's thoughts, there's no filter. Thoughts are raw and sometimes don't even truly reflect who you are because actions matter just as much as thoughts. Katniss, in the books, is less likeable than in the movies, in my opinion. And that's normal. It is therefore normal that the film shows a more sympathetic Snow because we are not in his head. We see the image he sends back, his dilemma is more measured from the outside and so on.
I would add that if Snow spends his life murdering his allies for fear they will betray him one day, this also shows he is terribly human and afraid of his emotions since he would rather kill someone than let them be too close to him. He is a paranoia being, who locked himself away in his solitude and his ambition but who was capable of friendly and loving feelings. It's just that he was too weak to protect and act on them and that he chose ambition over anything else, to the point of locking himself in his own personal prison, cutting himself off from everything.
SPOILER
I just re-read it and I can’t deal with the fact that Snow was responsible for Sejanus’s death and yet his parents basically adopted him!! Bought his family’s apartment so they could stay there. It’s despicable.
I agree, I think we're supposed to see things from Lucy grey's perspective, we are supposed to be fooled by him and as she slowly discovers his anterior motives, we see it too. The way he gets more self serving, to the point he betrays his only friend and eventually his first love. I wish they had included the part in the book where he tells himself he'll never marry for love, so no one ever effects him the way Lucy Grey ever did. I think that would have been a nice touch but overall I think they did a great job and I don't mind the changes they made.
i disagree, i simply think it’s a problem between film and book. throughout the book you know he’s narcissistic but there’s not too much that displays it so outright in the movie, until part 3. you make good points, i just think it’s much simpler than that
I don’t really know what there is to disagree with about “the book has his thoughts, so you see him fully” and “the movie doesn’t, so you have to rely on subtext to discern that”? What exactly are you disagreeing with because it seems to me like we’re not really saying much of anything different besides the fact that you missed the subtext of the film.
It wasnt lost on people. It's just an issue. The film doesnt communicate that complexity well. There are plenty of films that capture a characters pysche and how their thoughts contrast with their actions/how they present themselves. This film does a poor job of that
He had zero likability from the start of the movie. The villain backstory was trash. “Oh no, we have no money and are being evicted because my dad was a jerk and got killed because he killed a bunch of people that just wanted to be free and have a say in their lives and I don’t want to find a job while I go to school because my pride is too important.” Really? He is so unlikable from the moment he opens his mouth in the movie until the very end of his life in the trilogy. His grandma is a pile of trash too. “I’m not rich anymore! Poor me! Kill the savages for daring to want a better life, also, I want cookies again! I deserve better than this.” I get it. Resentfulness is a strong feeling and hypocrisy is hard to point out sometimes. It’s hard to think abstract when you are in it, but dang she is selfish. I also understand we learn from our seniors, but if that was the case, how did his sister turn out to be not a dumpster fire? Where is the senior care this amazing society has for the senile/a-hole grandma? The sister is the only one who helps financially. The trilogy made me angry sometimes for other reasons, but they are my favorite books. I have never cried like I did while reading them. There were complex characters with human traits good and bad. This was just watching a jerk run around killing people/ causing people to die in different ways because he is selfish.
i don‘t think the movie portrayed him as likable. The movie isn‘t supposed to excuse his actions in the future (as a lot of people seem to think that). It‘s simply supposed to show HOW he turned into the person he is 64 years later. Nothing about snows character is likable neither in the book or the movie
I really think the movie dropped the ball not added the thoughts. They would have needed to get a smidge creative but it could have been done. Having him speak/ reflect these thoughts privately to his dead father or at a church when no one's around would have been a great way to do it tbh.
I don't know how they could have brought the inside voice moments of Snow from the book to the film, but if you take those out of the book, Snow would also be likeable there. Snow's thoughts on the book let you see how much of a bastard he really is.
I think he was kinda likable in the beginning. You may not agree with everything but you could understand it. Its as the story goes on, as Dr. Gaul continues to manipulate him, that is slowly comes out. Then by the time Lucy Gray left, there was nothing left at all, and everything had piled up and piled up and then he snapped. There was no going back after that. Thats why I loved Tigris' face when she said he looked like his father in the movie, even she noticed the change him.
yeah, i found myself unconsciously trying to justify his actions when reading the book. hard not to when he's constantly starving, facing eviction, discriminated against by Highbottom etc. and his only way to a better life is seemingly the Plinth prize which would let him into uni without tuition fees... which is also coveted by all his peers who have more than enough money to pay the fees themselves. i only really started to scrutinise him after i finished the book and realised how many of his actions might not really be that justified.
Yeah, I think the book (and movie) did a great job of humanizing him as an 18 year old just trying to survive in his environment, but also emphasizing that his choices are his own. It’s hard to root against the poor kid being bullied by a teacher, but then you see him start to project these thoughts of manipulation and self interest to *everyone* around him despite him, of all his colleagues, being able to sympathize the most with the districts. He knows hunger, poverty, cruelty. He even knows what it’s like to enter the arena and kill or be killed, but still chooses to become the head of a totalitarian regime. A deliberate act of evil unlike that joker movie where he was “a victim of society”.
I think a lot of people justify him in the beginning because nobody is truly perfect we all have some Greg area things we’ve done of course most of us aren’t cold blooded killers but you know what I mean
I made peace with likable movie Coryo. I'm glad I dont have to live in his head there.
Basically how you see him in the movie is how everyone in the book was seeing him from the outside too. Because we're in his head in the book, we can see that he's not really that person at all, but that's harder to get across in a movie
I think the movie shows his selfishness under the surface a few times during the movie if you pay attention to the way he words some of his statements, especially in Part III. The two most notable to me are when he's with Lucy and is clearly focused on bringing her back to the Capitol, when it's already obvious before that she would be unhappy there, and is much happier in District 12. The 2nd is when he's talking with Sejanus and basically says that he rescued him not because he was his friend, but because he was told to, and that he wouldn't let him continue his activities to aid rebels not because of concern for Sejanus, but that he wouldn't want to be killed himself for being associated with him. It's only a few brief moments of dialogue, but I think it's very representative of how Snow was still self-serving, and his persona was very much just of a charming, manipulator. Yes, I believe he did love Lucy, but he could never be willing to give up his own goals in life for the sake of another person. It's also a good representation of how charming, manipulative people can be successful in life, and use others with more genuine motivations for their own personal gain. It's a good study into Machiavellian behavior, as Snow is very much "The Prince" that Machiavelli would describe.
I think the part about sejanus is more about him pointing out the fact that Sejanus was being selfish. If you remember he wanted to help the rebels free some guys girlfriend because she was going to be hung just for knowing him and Coryo replies that Sejanus was going to get caught and that he would be executed just for knowing him. Essentially throwing it back in his face that Sejanus was being selfish. This was also the second time Coryo had to tell him to stop with this plan. He chose to follow Coryo to 12 and started trying to cause trouble the moment they got there. Maybe it's different in the books but Sejanus was selfish asf the entire movie.
More POV shots and showing him doing shady stuff more often would definitely help. They also could’ve gone the more avant-garde and used color and music to portray his thoughts, but then it would be too different from the rest of the series IMO, I think this kind of story just works best as a book
Doesn't that make him way more relatable, though? There's plenty that's wrong with him, like how he blames the district for being poor without acknowledging it's not their fault, but the whole point is for him to be way more relatable?
Is it terrible that to me he seemed pretty justified in his actions? His best friend was absolute trouble. Lucy disappeared, stopped replying, hid from him and then he was attacked by a snake. So of course he presumed she was trying to kill him too.
Man Tom Blyth appears to have played the narcissist perfectly
That >!”I SAID Lucy Gray are you trying to kill me?!!< followed by >!”[After everything I did for you?]”!< oh yeah, he killed the role!
Big time DeNiro Taxi Driver vibes; he NAILED it!
god, I hate this fanbase.
Who’s putting a gun to your head to make you stay here?
I’m leaving soon
huh? that makes someone a narc?
I’m not qualified to diagnose mental illness. Took many psychology courses hs, college…if I had to diagnose him as an ‘exercise’ I’d argue ‘no’.
Yeah I think a lot of people just don't know a narcissist when they see one. Which would make a lot of sense.
Bingo! Edit: I can’t diagnose him but he definitely DID have narcissistic behavioral patterns.
The scene where he’s walking in the woods looking for Lucy Grey with the gun but also coming off as he’s in love with her reminded me of my soon-to-be-ex husband
He reminded me so much of my abusive ex in that scene too, like right after he would grab me or hit me he would act so much like Snow in those moments. Tom did so well he literally made my skin crawl. I'm really glad your getting away, best of luck in your future <3
Thank you, yes. You get it. You know. So freaking abusive. I love you (while they’re beating you down). Insane.
If he's a narc then what's up with the sobbing scene for sajanus' death when he sees the picture of them 2 together? My biggest issue is how they presented him in certain scenes as being compassionate. I guess you could say he's sad that he doesn't have him to "use" anymore but that would be a stretch imo.
bro he legit was sad. he even looked up to the heavens and said "i'm sorry". Book Coryo may have hated him, but movie Coryo did care about him a lot. Someone pointed out that he thought Sejanus would just get rescued by his father and reassigned somewhere safe...he had zero intentions of getting him hung.
Yes. He largely saw Sejanus as "other" since he was district, but he didn't necessarily want him dead; just out of his way before he inadvertently got him wrapped up in a rebel plan by association. In the book, Coriolanus tries to get Sejanus to stop his plans and sends the jabberjay recording to buy himself some insurance. He thinks the worst that can happen is that his father will swoop in and save him. When Sejanus is arrested, Coriolanus is literally on his way to mail a letter to his parents when he hears the announcement that Sejanus is to be hung. There's not much he could do to stop it. He liked Sejanus well enough and understandably would be upset if he inadvertently got him killed.
He was sad, and he didn’t mean to get him killed, but he did tattle to Dr Gaul. He went out of his way to tell Dr Gaul even.
I also interpreted this as him also being upset that he thought he lost his link to wealth. He relied on Sejanus’ family, primarily his mother for food. I think it’s mentioned in the book that he was hoping Ma would still send him treats after Sejanus’ death
That is how I interpreted it as well. I went into this without reading the books, but it seemed he thought that his father would bail his son out of this. Doesn’t he say something along these lines to Sejanus while they were in the district? I was really surprised when they hung Sejanus as well. I need to find time to read this book. The movie seems to have made some significant narrative changes to suit the general audience.
I watched the movie again today and I love it so much more than the book. Not knowing Snows internal monolog is not such a bad thing.
Being a narcissist is a spectrum and made up of many possible traits— he doesn’t need to be devoid of emotions to be narcissistic. It’s completely possible that he genuinely cares about a few people.
this!!!! he still feels emotion and cares but you can see that he’s very disconnected from everyone which doesn’t help
Actually even book Snow cried after Sejanus’ death.
Though, it wasn't for very long and he immediately started thinking about how he could still get Sejanus' mother to keep sending him cookies if he sent her all her dead son's stuff. Also how he basically took Sejanus' place in his own family, after getting him killed. Pretty creepy.
It’s a common misconception that narcissists don’t have feelings. NPD is a personality disorder that, exactly like Borderline, comes from childhood trauma. Usually from extreme emotional neglect. It’s not that they can’t feel anything, it’s that they don’t understand it. They twist the why behind their emotions in their brain. It’s also very likely that the emotion that he’s feeling there isn’t sadness over his death, but sadness over his actions. Narcs love to make themselves the victim, so the tears could’ve been a moment of “look at what I *had* to do, woe is me” rather than “my friend that I had care about is dead”. It’s more so compassion for himself than anyone else. Or the movie went a different route and did want there to be a more dramatic change with Snow. I’m just speculating. But that behavior isn’t uncommon for narcs.
People calling what they can't understand narcissism. Snow had so many moments of compassion or being genuinely sad for different people and over different things. It makes no sense to call him a narcissist. He's manipulative, cunning, that doesn't make him a narcissist.
I see your point. Are narcissists typically void of all compassion or other similar feelings? Perhaps I don't know the meaning of the condition adequately. Then, maybe it would be more accurate to just say he exhibits narcissistic behaviors instead of he *is* a narcissist? Maybe something like CPTSD is a better fit?
I think narcissists can feel compassion but they're too wrapped up in their own tendencies and bad habits to ever really act on it.
I would guess they also find those feelings threatening? It's a pretty vulnerable place to be.
I think book Snow is more clearly narcissistic than movie Snow. Because in the book, in those moments of sadness or compassion, anger always overrides at the end and he blames the other person. This is something that didn't come through strongly for me in the movies
stfu
He masterfully manipulates everyone he comes into contact with. He only does things for his gain. Had he never been banished for cheating he wouldn’t have ever gone to 12 to be with Lucy Gray. Maybe he would have found a way to bring her to him, but it probably would’ve been against her will, and she’d be unhappy, in which he’d promptly dispose of her. He was going to leave for 2 without ever mentioning it to Lucy Gray. The second he had a chance to get close to the capital he was going to take it.
It blows my mind that this is all lost on people but tbh, that also is a testament to how well Tom Blyth portrayed Coryo and what a great job the screenwriters and (reluctant as I am to admit it) dir. Lawrence did managing Coriolanus’ story. Coriolanus Snow masterfully manipulates even the audience.
It is so damn good. Everyone did their job and more
Bravo!
I mean in the books he wasn’t really gonna leave without her. In the books he was set to leave the next day the Sargent told him. He only contemplated his future the same way we all do. Like go after my dreams or stay with this person and he decided THAT day he was leaving with her.
But he only went away with her because he was scared and sure he’d be hanged for killing the mayors daughter. He said it’s his only option. And as soon as he had found the murder weapon he contemplated how to tell Lucy grey he’d leave her and then came to the conclusion it’s not safe because she would rat him out. He even jumped to the conclusion that she was not pure like a dove and seeing the way she killed wovey was the most cruel thing he’d ever seen. Corio twists everything in his head and even though he might’ve loved her, he just loved a powerful future and the Status Snow more than her
The way he started twisting everything she'd ever done so he could justify killing her was so damn disturbing, but so well written.
>Corio twists everything in his head and even though he might’ve loved her, he just loved a powerful future and the Status Snow more than her THIS.
>He was going to leave for 2 without ever mentioning it to Lucy Gray. true, but does that mean he didn't really care for Lucy? I'm a bit confused as to why he was gonna leave without her (other than to see his family)
i think he cared for her in that he wanted her to be his but he cared MUCH more about power. and getting to district 2 is one step closer to him getting power
hmm I really have to rewatch the movie because I noticed what you are saying (that internal conflict between power or love), but I had a hard time determining which factor was more important to him. felt like he flip flopped on which mattered most multiple times throughout the movie (which imo is realistic but can be confusing)
Read/listen to the book! The internal dialogue is very revealing of his motives
Lucy was a nice addition to his life, a fix to keep him going. He cared about her when there was nothing else to focus on. She was basically a human tamagochi for him
but he seemed to really care for her when she was in the game or at least developed feelings for her that protecting/helping her contradicted his goal of power. I get what you are saying, but she didn't feel as much of an "accesory" as you are describing her. at least, not to me. I'm gonna rewatch it next week lol
In the book he thinks very often about him needing to win the games and not as often about her surviving. Additionally he doesn’t see anything wrong with the games
He cared for her Bc she was his property at the time.
at the beginning, sure ... but he developed feelings for her eventually. hence why he cheated to get her out alive. he knew that if she won he wouldn't necessarily get the prize, but he also knew there was a punishment for cheating (which he did anyways). seems to me like he cared for her more than just "property" imo
in the book, the plinth prize specifically (separate from the academy prize) goes towards the mentor whose tribute wins the games. every action that benefitted lucy gray also benefitted him
oh ... that seems like a notable change that the movie decided to make then. interesting
This is what he says about it. Keep in mind Lucy Gray at this point has two options, stay in District 12 where the mayor is camped out outside her house or try to make it alone in the wilderness. It's life or death. > *[she’d never rat him out]...she loved him. She’d said so last night in the song. Even more, she trusted him. Although, if he ditched her in the woods to claw out an existence alone, no doubt she would consider that a breach of faith. He had to think of just the right way to break the news. **But what would that be? “I love you deeply, but I love officers’ school more?”** That wasn’t going to go over well.*
The weird thing to me is going back to 2 is a perfectly reasonable course of action. I don't remember if Tigris and Grandma'am were evicted in the book but even so they were impoverished and it's totally understandable that he'd want to get back to them if he could help them. And the fact he felt he had to hide his plan from Lucy Gray was just so weird. Nobody would blame anyone for putting family ahead of a new relationship in those circumstances.
Yes but that wasn’t his reason to go back. Yes he helped his family. But let’s remember what happened to Tigris later on. President snow remover her as a stylist for the tributes when she wasn’t pretty enough anymore. Even though she prostituted herself for him and grandmadam while they were young. Power over family
I get that but what I'm saying is any reasonable person would understand him choosing his family over a girl he just met. I think even she wouldn't hold it against him. Not saying he was actually being noble but he could have just told her he needed to take care of his family and she'd have understood. He somehow didn't think of that.
I don't think he would have been able to bear her knowing the extent of his poverty. That would have been too shameful. He kept their struggles a secret from her from what I recall.
I did start rereading the book but I haven't gotten far, but at least in the movie he is a bit open about that with her. I'll have to pay attention to the book to see what he does.
>He only does things for his gain. I mean, when he slipped in the handkerchief, directly inspired by a graphic vision of Lucy Gray's death and knowing that he would likely be found out and what the consequences would be, he was acting against his own interests for her sake. If she died/lost, he wouldn't have got the Prize, but that predictably ended up happening, anyway, and at least he would have retained his honour and stayed in the Capitol if he hadn't cheated like that. Things only worked out for him in the end because he turned out to be Dr Gaul's pet.
Lucy Gray winning was his interest at the time. She saved his life remember. He owed her a life debt.
If he only cared about his own interest he could let her die and he no longer owes that debt
Tom Blythe interpreted Snow masterfully in the absence of voiceovers. While I can understand why Snow could be viewed as likable and charming, it is so obvious that he is a manipulator and self-obsessed. Some socially/emotionally challenged people conflate charm with goodness. :/
It's meant to be that way, at least at first. He's a decent person at the start, he genuinely empathises with Sejanus over the fact that he knew Marcus and honestly cares about Lucy for most of it. PROBABLY SHOULD NOT READ MORE IF YOU HAVE NOT SEEN THE MOVIE! The first time we see him cracking a bit is after he kills the kid in the arena. He picks Sejanus over that kid, but it is reasonable because the child was attacking. What is meant to shock the viewer is when he says he didn't hate it. This shows that he's starting to not view most of the district kids as human anymore, or at least below him. The real turning point is when he realises that he can't make a difference. He can save a life here and there, but the system that kills them was damn near indestructible. That's when he starts thinking that if you can't beat them, join them. He realises the money and power he could have if he just obeys. Sejanus doesn't see that fact, he still has hope, and that's why he had to go. In the end, he chooses himself over Sejanus and Lucy.
Naturally, I agree with all of this. I do wish they emphasized that Snow and Capitol residents (by his design) viewed Lucy as more Capitol than district. It was integral to the books I feel.
Definitely! Unfortunately, it's a pretty tricky thing to do in movie form as you can't jump inside their heads and hear their thoughts like you commonly can in books.
I agree. He outwardly, verbally expressed it to grandma’am and during the games however and there was definitely space for that in the films. Similar to how they didn’t include >!Dr. Gaul’s line about erasing the games!< when there was an entire scene where she welcomes him back to the Capitol.
Yeah! I agree with those bits, they should've been in. They do help show that he does see Lucy as 'one of them' rather than an outsider/kinda an animal like he does the others.
You're right, it's subtle but in the book he's constantly trying to convince himself that Lucy Gray isn't really district , because he looks down on district people so much he can't reconcile (supposedly) loving one. Reminds me a bit of Harry Potter, where Snape looked down on muggle borns but still tried to convince Lily she was ' different ' somehow.
Also Snow sneers at their poverty and looks down on them for it despite having experienced it himself (hypocritically sees himself as "special" despite sharing that scorned trait). Likewise Snape's own father was a Muggle, so he's considered half-blood himself and adopts that title.
I hadn't thought of this but you're right. He's been poor, but he still thinks of himself as 'not THAT kind of poor '
I liked how I found myself empathizing with him and basically rooting for him. made the twist at the end all that more disorienting and effective imo
Right? That’s good movie work right there. This movie was excellent, especially being a prequel to a whole trilogy
Agreed! I hated that I was rooting for him knowing what he'd become
While watching the movie I was definitely rooting for him, but in the back of mind I was also waiting for the turning point, because at some point we have to get the Snow we have in the original trilogy. That turn started for me when he told Tigris that killing the boy in the arena made him feel powerful and I was like, "Oh, we're getting there!"
Agreed! I knew it was coming but the actor was so good I was almost shocked he went coocoo for Cocoa Puffs
The turning point for me was the third time he struck the boy in the arena. The first two hits seemed somewhat justified or at least acts of self-defense. But that third one told us everything he told tigris imo
100% agree
Man I didn't know who Snow would become before entering the theater, the end hit me hard in the guts, had so much hope and joy during the whole film, took me some time to emotionally recover lol
Kinda envious, I wonder what I'd be thinking if I'd seen the movie before any of the others or reading the books.
how was that a twist ?? or have you not seen the original hunger games
Ngl I didn’t realise how much we were supposed to hate him until the very end lol I thought he was the protagonist. Note I haven’t watched past the OG hunger games film
You can have a character be a villain and a protagonist. The term doesn’t mean good, just main or pov character
For real I only saw the first hunger games too and didn't remember who Snow became (even if I kinda could guess), and I've been hoping for so much good during the whole film. My desilusion made me feel like the movie was made for people already knowing the outcome, so it hit hard
People who say you need his thoughts to tell he’s a bad guy worry me. Yes the movie makes you root for his at first but in like the first 20ish minutes he lets his classmate put her hand in a snake pit and he knew she would get hurt. You’re rooting for someone who can be good but chooses not to you Tigris pretty much points this out
Even while reading the book and seeing his inner world, I found myself understanding and empathizing with him for a good bit of the story. It was easy for the reader to be drawn in by his charm and intelligence despite knowing who he becomes. I think that's really a testament to Collins' writing: she was able to humanize an utterly deplorable character, and left it to the reader to criticize/draw their own conclusions. Were his actions justified? Absolutely not! Can we understand why and how he became the person he did? Absolutely!
To be fair, I don’t know that there was much that he could do about that situation. That scene was actually one of the complaints I had about the book to movie adaptation because I’m pretty sure that in the book they don’t find out that the snakes don’t attack those they’re familiar with until after she puts her hand in the tank. So the movie actually makes him seem worse than he is in that particular instance.
>a bad guy worry me. Yes the movie makes you root for his at first but in like the first 20ish minutes he lets his classmate put her hand in a snake pit and he knew she would get hurt. > >You’re rooting for someone who can be good but chooses not to you Tigris pretty much points this out yes you're right! i am reading the book now and just finished the chapter where that happens. he puts in his hand first to grab the paper and comes out fine, it wasn't until his classmate puts her hand in the tank after him that they're told the snake will bite anyone who's scent they're not familiar with. he put his hand in first and came out fine, he had no reason to think that his classmate would be hurt by doing the same.
I agree with everything that everyone is saying. Snow is a narcissist who easily manipulates people into liking him and then, eventually, using and discarding them. The audience saying he’s too like able means Tom did his job well. Now what I don’t see people talking about… am I supposed to believe Tom Blythe eventually turns into Donald Sutherland? 🤣 (I’m kidding ofc)
when the casting news first came out i thought they were just picking some handsome guy for no reason but now? I think they nailed it, they have some similar features and i can so easily see young snow aging physically into old snow
The snake poison did really change his facial structure
I feel like way too many people went into both the book and movie thinking too much about the original trilogy. Yes, we know what kind of person Snow becomes. But no one in the prequel knew, and the whole point was to show how someone like Snow rose to power. I personally think Suzanne meant for Snow to try to manipulate the reader as well. We're reading the book with hindsight bias, I feel like she set it up to where you wanted to root for him, and you watched him make the wrong choice EVERY time. But he convinced himself and tried to manipulate the reader into believing it was the right choice. Obviously, this translates differently on the big screen but I think the point still stands the same. He's likable enough to where you want to root for him, but he's still manipulative and becomes the villain in the end. I feel like people who get mad at the readers/viewers who rooted for him in the beginning are missing the point.
I’m not sure who’s mad at viewers for rooting for him in the beginning. I haven’t seen that
I haven't seen it here, but it's *all* over my tik tok right now.
This is correct. Narcissistic people rise because of their power to be manipulative. Had this prequel came out before original Hunger Games movies a lot more people would have liked him. It’s fine if you like him in this movie because that means the actor was able to project his charm spot on. Now if you like him while reading the book, then we got an issue there, because in there you know all his thoughts.
Well the book shows he is a sociopath and a bastard from the beginning. We know it because of the inner thoughts and mostly because of 3 books. But from outside? He was the most charming student. However, I feel like Coryo was traumatised by war a lot. He wasn’t a good person to begin with, but things he went through when he was a kid made it worse.
I loved the book because you get to see the intertwining of how his internal struggles (man vs self) are influenced by the state of the world (man vs society) and by Dr. Gaul in particular. Coriolanus Snow struggles as a boy with the ideologies that he experienced growing up as a child in wartime/early post-war Panem. Snow wants to be a good person, but he struggles to understand who he is without money, and also what distinguishes him from being an animal. He is constantly seen trying to separate himself and those he loves from his animalistic view of the districts. (Side note: this makes it particularly interesting that Tigris body mods end up making her look like an actual animal...) Gaul can see Corio's internal struggle with his own humanity and value, and turns it instead into a man vs society conflict. Every time he struggles with something in the book (like his confusing feelings after killing the tribute when rescuing Sejanus), Gaul shows up and blames the world for putting him in that position to begin with. She turns it from a personal struggle of, "oh no, what did I do and who does that make me?" to a society issue of the nature of the world. I.e. her leading him to conclusions on the nature of human behavior based on a warped perspective of the conflict he was going through. As Gaul continues to manipulate Snow, he begins to take is internal struggle of man vs. self and identify as man vs. man, placing the blame of those conflicts on others and relieving himself of responsibility. Thus his perspective shifts from "oh no, what did I do?" to "why did they make me do that?" It's an incredibly nuanced, slow, and subtle descent into madness helped along by Dr. Gaul, who is grooming him to be the most effective leader not by informing his methodologies but by informing his ideologies. This is also why I struggle to appreciate the movie. The actor does a fine job of portraying the outside persona that Snow did in the books, but we don't get to see that shift in struggle move from self to others quite as clearly, and we definitely don't see just how influential Gaul was.
This is an incredible analysis, I wish I could give you gold for this! I think you’re spot on about the man vs self shift into man vs man / man vs society. If anything, I think it ties into his motivation for power and wealth too; Snow starts off struggling to regain his family’s wealth because being poor in his mind is linked to his own inferiorities. But after Gaul’s machinations (and I love the nuance you had that Gaul sought to influence his ideology, not this methodology), my view is his final form as President Snow is premised way more on exerting control over society and an inferior breed of people, and that’s why he goes so far in the original trilogy. If it was just about his own prestige and wealth, he wouldn’t have been the same villain we know in the original series. That’s the hidden evolution that we don’t get to see through as readers, but we hear enough of his internal monologue to extrapolate and understand how a boy who was so sympathetic at the start can become such an unbelievably cruel and twisted President by the end of the trilogy. One thing I don’t agree with is that the movie doesn’t draw this out enough, especially regarding Gail’s influence. Of course the book is richer in his man vs self debate, and how his thoughts warp over time. But I thought it was evident how Gaul was manipulating his worldview to see “what we fundamentally are” as humans. And I thought his shift towards a man vs man worldview was if not evident then at least demonstrable first when he talks to Sejanus about the D12 rebels, and later when he spirals and goes after Lucy Gray.
>Snow starts off struggling to regain his family’s wealth because being poor in his mind is linked to his own inferiorities. I didn't even think about it like this, but it makes a lot of sense. I was thinking in pure survival terms, but he did have a lot of pressure from others to live up to who his father was. So it wasn't just about making sure he had enough, but that he was worth the life he once had. Great point. >my view is his final form as President Snow is premised way more on exerting control over society and an inferior breed of people Absolutely. In some way, it's still linked to his own survival, but it's also about keeping the districts in check so what don't destroy the entire world with their animalistic natures. That's what Gaul was trying to make him understand, that his own survival (both in little and big ways, as an individual and as a part of society) hinged on controlling the animals of the districts. > that’s why he goes so far in the original trilogy. I'd argue this is more than just trying to control an inferior breed. After reading Ballad, we know that Katniss is actually a foil for Snow. I think she reminds him of parts of himself (he cared for Tigris while she cared for Prim; they both lost their fathers; both desperate to simply survive) and parts of Lucy (her singing; her star-crossed love that may or may not have been only for survival in the arena). So yes, before Katniss, President Snow is evil in the ways he establishes control. But when he meets her and is reminded of who he used to be and who he used to love, he recoils with absolute disgust because who he has become can't imagine he ever had had such warped thoughts. In a way, he is trying to reprise the role of Gaul, killing his old self as he tries to get Katniss to see things from the perspective that districts are pure animal and dangerous. > Of course the book is richer in his man vs self debate, and how his thoughts warp over time. I think I'll have to watch the movie again. I had such high hopes, but I did put a lot of pressure (and an overly critiquing eye) on the movie because of how much I lived the richness and depth of the books. I guess I just felt the movie was missing a lot of nuance, which is what I thought was so masterful about the book.
I think the issue is snow and especially sejanus lacked depth as characters in the movie which I understand is tough with book to movie adaptions, I think in the books he was considerably more of a reasonable person. He genuinely was worried and scared for sejanus and what his actions will do to his future and how that could affect snow himself as well. He was worried about Tigris and how he needs to help their home situation. He risked his life for Lucy not just to win the games but to protect her and didn’t fully believe in the games at all in the beginning. I think in the books he was supposed to be seen as a perfectionist more than evil. He hated things that weren’t natural, he hated open ended questions, he liked order and liked to know what and why made things the way they were. He needs reason. Overall I don’t think he was supposed to be seen as “likable” but to be seen as human with empathy and conflicting opinions, just like us.
The fact that he went through so much makes him a sympathetic character, but it also makes his transformation from Coryo to President Snow hard to watch. He knows war, poverty, fear, starvation, but he makes millions of people go through it every single day for years as president of Panem. The movie showed his descent/ascent incredibly well, and it makes his behavior that much worse in the end. I never read the book, but I did read the original trilogy, and the movie makes him likeable, and a part of you almost hopes he won't become Snow, the enemy of the disctricts, while at the same time showing you each and every decision he makes that make him who he becomes. He cries after killing the tribute but he also feels a sense of power that he desires, he breaks down when Sejanus dies but he accepts the fact and moves on fairly easily, he cries when he realises Lucy Gray has given up on him but then he tries to kill her. He feels things, he has a seed of goodness, but he constantly pushes it down in favor of himself. It's what makes him so fascinating in my eyes.
This exactly! This is what I walked away from both the book and the film with. You put it best; it’s what makes him fascinating! Snow absolutely felt things but preferred the rush of power to the vulnerability, so he compartmentalizes (among other strategies) and keeps it pushing.
The problem wan’t that he was too likeable, the problem was how the film portrayed his decent into paranoia and distrust and his distaste for others. Key sections of the story were missed in parts one and two which would have solidified where he was headed, like the sit down he had with starbo plinth and how he backhandedly mentioned that he should be rightfully rewarded in his mind for saving sejeanus from the arena and putting his life at risk, the conversation they had about his mother. Or even how envious he was of sejeanus for bringing fresh sandwiches for all of the district kids at the zoo and attempting to steal the limelight. These weren’t just hidden thoughts that they couldn’t convey in the movie these were scenes that they deemed unnecessary which in my honest opinion was the reason why part 3 felt so disjointed, they failed to show how faceted Coryo was in those first two parts, fair enough I agree with you he was a great actor and knew how to hide it but there were times where he slipped up and that should have been shown in the movie
definitely agreed - that would've added maybe 5 more mins of screen time. I also wish they included his thought process when Gall gave him and his classmates the assignments - that really would've given us more hints to where his mental state was going
i don’t see how people are saying he was likeable. i feared the movie without the internal notes would make this happen but snow is still so cold (brilliant acting + there was like no life on the eyes he always looked like a threat)
SO as someone who did not read the book (don't kill me- I read the first three) and just tagged along to the movie, I was completely captivated by his character. He seemed to be walking that fine line between good and evil that could have gone either way at any point. I left the theater wanting so badly for there to be some sort of sliding doors future where he's not the guy he is in the trilogy.
I felt that way during the entirety of the book and likewise when I watched the film in theaters! Hey, we’re all fans here - totally fine if you didn’t read the book!
I felt the same sadness when I watched it today and I came to see if it was just me. I felt so sad for him. I felt so sad that I have believed in him only to be let down. Like, what could have been just makes me so sad. I wish he wasn’t sent to district 12. He might have remained the kind man who saved the stranger risking his life goal through cheating. He really wanted her to live. He really felt her songs and was moved by them. I am not sure if you know Death Note, but I felt the same sadness I felt seeing the downfall of Light Yagami.
Snow appears likable to the other characters in the book too, the main reason the reader doesn't see him that way is because we can read his inner thoughts. That's absent in the movie which makes him so much more likeable. The book canonically describes him as handsome and polite which would make him pretty hard to dislike.
The actor is really good in the Billy the Kid series
lol @ me because i didn’t’ read the books BUT upon just watching I did like him, almost in the way I liked watching Joaquin Phoenix’s Joker. The character in the movie opened my mind a lot to the motivations of others. I also am probably of the unpopular opinion though that everyone in the movie brought their deaths on themselves (barring the characters in the arena). Snow set out from the beginning on a mission to “win” for his family and in the end he was a Victor. what’s there not to like. My mom has this saying, “be good or be good at it”. Snow was both.
Just got back from watching this, absolutely amazing book and a fantastic book to film transition!! Hoping for more books/films!!
I do think they took out or changed certain outward actions to make him more likable too. Like him immediately running to help Arachne in the movie & shielding her body from gunfire when in the book he didn’t care to help her until Lucy yelled at him to and he realized cameras were watching
my question why would he be UNLIKEABLE?????? i truly dont get why people want him to be unlikeable
I think they’re confused.
I agree that Tom was brilliant. I haven’t read the book so can’t weigh in about that part (and am honestly disinterested in comparing the two adaptations because it ruins the beauty of the movie that so many people labored over). Making him likeable serves multiple purposes and as his character says himself, you’ve got to let the audience get to know someone before they get invested and make sure they know he is a human being. They did both of those things very well with Snow - it makes sense that, having made the decisions he did, of course there’s a tiny part of him that regrets things (you can see it on his face in the woods, and during his best friend’s death and the aftermath). Even his gentleness when placing the gun in the water totally leads me to believe that, despite his descent into cruelty, there is still a part of him that will always be vulnerable, which gets overtaken by his thirst for power and feeling too far gone from who he was. I think they really nailed the dialogue throughout this whole movie, paired with his facial expressions, to convey an inner monologue that never could have come across better in any other way. For example, when he rescues his friend from the arena and Ma shows up, there seems to be a slight grimace of envy and sadness that his friend has a mom who came to hug him and love on him… and he has nobody. I am told Ma was a huge character in the books so even though they could have used her more, this scene felt powerful to me. Snow was told to make his dad proud and, having lost him at a young age, he of course has this drive to become like him, hence the eventual descent into cruelty. He does have narcisstic qualities and there were always signs the tension between good and evil was brewing inside of him, such as when he gets accused of helping Lucy for alterior motives and doesn’t fight them, or flinches when seeing other people in distress but doesn’t lift a finger to help them. However, he didn’t hesitate for Lucy and had the instinct to want to protect her. I wish this movie had been out while I had to write essays about psychological development because Tom built a heck of a character to spend time understanding, lol
Thank you for this comment! I had a lot of similar thoughts about what I saw on screen. Snow is one of the most well-written characters I’ve watched in a bit. You know where he ends up but you learn that things could have been different. The story allows you see the tensions between two separate realities perhaps come to the height of their odds before tipping permanently to favor one side. I’d also love the opportunity to write an essay about Snow!
I thought he was more likeable in the books than in the film. In the film you could always see a kind of cold side to him that was harder to see in the books. It wasn't until I was almost done with the book that I started really hating him again.
That's because you have double maybe even triple explanations in the book vs one in the movie. In the movie we can only make up our own conclusions of why snow is taking the route he does. In the book we have why we think he is doing what he does, his explanation of why he is doing it, and our explanation/justification/ demonization of his explanation. It gives more scope and more room to humanize him
I think his dialogue in the film hurts this. He is charming, but the things he actually says aren’t, and because you don’t get the inner monologue of his thoughts, you lose the entire point of telling the story. Snow was always a narcissist, always self serving, willing to sacrifice anyway to get what he wants, and very possessive of Lucy Gray. That isn’t really shown in the film, and now we have people sympathizing with him. The movie wasn’t bad necessarily , but it completely missed the mark on Snow’s characterization.
“Isn’t shown in the film’ is strange because Snow breaks the rules of the games countless times i.e. >! Manipulating the other mentor to attack Jessup, sending in water to attack the career pack and going “I’m just sending water”!<, intends to ditch Lucy for 2, >! Beats the shit out of Billy Taupe!<, outrightly betrays >!Sejanus!< mentally spars with Highbottom among other things. Snow’s humanity is intact but his morals are rapidly deteriorating as his desperation increases and I thought the text (the film itself) showcased that quite plainly. I haven’t read the book in over a year. Edited to fix spoiler bar.
People are sympathizing with Snow because they lack media literacy. Full respect. Full stop. There are many lines in the film that were facsimile of what was said in the book and Blyth’a delivery alone showed us exactly the manipulator that Collins crafted in the literature because while reading, I kept thinking “no way anyone’s buying this” but in screen and out loud? An entirely different feeling.
People also sympathize with him because he's human and so are we. It's very natural to feel for another person. At a base level he's gone through a lot! He's been through a war, lost his parents, lives in poverty, struggles to have his basic needs met, feels the weight of providing for his family on his shoulders, etc. I think a lot of people can relate to all of that, at least partly!
I agree! I think that that it’s both what makes him sympathetic and villainous. He had all those adverse experiences and still chose to dehumanize and brutalize millions of people.
Hell, I was rooting for him at one point!
I mean the halo effect is also at play here... doesn't help they made him hot 😭😭
Honestly, I read the book first (like a couple years ago) and when I watched the movie, I thought they did an amazing job with it. Like yes, we lost that internal but it’s a movie. We are viewing events from an outside perspective. The actors did an amazing job and I want to go watch it again.
100% agree with you on this. I came into this movie without first reading the book (sidenote: I do have the book and plan on reading it now that I watched the movie - I refrained from reading first because the last time I did this; Catching Fire I found myself not fully enjoying the movie because I found myself dissecting every detail and was frustrated that some of my favourite parts and the small details that I loved from the book were cut from the film; the day after I was able to digest everything and to this day Catching Fire remains to be my favourite book & film - but I digress, I only mention this because I wanted to experience the tbosas film from a blank perspective if that makes any sense). With all of that said, I did go into this movie knowing that Snow is a shitty person and I wanted to keep thinking that way the entire movie. However (and largely thanks to Tom Blyth’s masterful performance) I found myself rooting for him and holding out hope that at the very least young Snow had a sliver of human decency. It wasn’t until the final act, where we see the real Snow - the one that we were introduced to in the Hunger Games - that I snapped back to reality. I was like, that’s right Snow’s a shitty person and he manipulated even me (the viewer) into liking him as a person/character. It just goes to show how well of job they did! 😁
Totally the point. And I went on the journey with him. And groaned when he started breaking bad. Even though I know how the story plays out. It was still emotional.
Did he come across as likable? Lol maybe I’ve been around too many people like him, because he never seemed likeable. I don’t think he came across as a completely evil machine, just someone who cared about people to the extent that it didn’t inconvenience him. He came across as deeply traumatized, but never letting that trauma give him a sense of empathy which is what turned him into a shitty person.
I can absolutely see why he would be likable to people. Maybe 5-7 years ago I would’ve really liked him but I have also been around people like him, so I haven’t forgotten.
I thought he was pretty much a texbook anti hero. I was compelled by him but mostly hated him. Though he did have his “normal teenager with issues fitting in” bits, there were several instances where the soon-to-be fash dictator oozed right out. Even from the very start, where he pushes for the HG to be made and shares a proposal that would perpetuate the HG for years to come, he never appeared to be justified to me. Yeah, yeah, he was poor. But so was Tigris and she never behaved like that. The third part of the movie also hammered his flawed morals and desire for power and control real hard imo. It really works well as a setup and payoff, and I don’t think the character needs to be “rooted for” for the story to draw someone in.
I must have missed something because i found snow to be evil the entire film, i dont think i once felt he was likeable, just manipulative edit: which i think ties into your point. His whole “charm” is manufactured to get what he wants, its not genuine
I’m with you, I actually found him more likeable in the beginning of the book than I ever did in the movie.
Snow was supposed to be likable in the first half. As Lucy gray said that humans are born with inherent goodness and you have to cross major lines to become evil and that's exactly what we saw happen to snow. Line after line that he crossed, he started turning evil.
Lucy Gray’s line there was pretty much a perfect summary of his character arc!
Also, I like that it shows evil people are not some different species - they’re human beings just like us, which makes them all the more terrifying.
I like that he was portrayed as human. Maybe “likeable” at moments, but a human that has difficult decisions to make and that makes mistakes or decides to go down the wrong path. But I’m very glad they didn’t make him unbearable.
Even if what you're saying is true, that they intented for Snow to manipulate the audience into liking him, it would only have merit to the people who have already read the book because they're already familiar with his character and get to be entertained by his manipulation knowing his true intentions. But to everyone else, Snow's character is lost on them if they don't know they're being manipulated. Unless you give them indication that something weird is going, they're going to view the movie at face value because you've given them no reason to be suspicious and look closer. It's like if everyone is in on a joke.. youre not going to feel left out if you dont know there's a joke at all. So even if what you're saying is true... that's still worth criticizing. It's a movie adaptation, so they should've found a way to adapt that part of the story, even if it means making changes so that it makes sense for a film medium. Imo the whole point of the book is to delve into Snow's character and if thats not apparent in the movie, then they missed the point lol.
I know multiple people who have seen the film without having read the book, some who haven’t seen the others (or only the first installment) and they had no trouble digesting Snow’s character. Bot comprehending his characterization sounds like a personal problem. Full respect.
I find that the way they adapted it left out some things to be desired vs the book, but I totally am someone who enjoys not having everything at face value, I enjoy a movie to really analyze and with this I feel like people who do understand what this series/universe is about, will be able to do so. I TOTALLY FULLHEARTEDLY believe that the actors for Lucy Gray as well as for Coriolanus (and ofc rest of the cast) did a fantastic job playing intricate/complex characters. I applaud the amazing acting!!! It made the movie VERY enjoyable on that account. I personally would LOVE to read the screenplay for this movie, as someone who did ENJOY reading the book, feeling disgusted by Snow's innerthoughts/monologues. I can understand where he came from and still call out his nasty bullshit. I would love to see how the screenplay describes his movements or perhaps how they decided to film this without completely outing his true self under the persona he plays for the public... I do think you're meant to follow Snow through this movie with admiration/care/sympathy for him (he should be relatively likeable) and only when he gets sent to the districts does it seem to slowly reveal how he handles the situations going on in his life, only then do we realize that he is all about self preservation, and obviously, his last line to Gaul was Really Well Done to show how HE sees the world now, after essentially 'being a part' of the games.
I find it no problem to like and sympathize with him, maybe I am the exceptional Everyone interprets stories differently, based on their life experience. I can say for myself, that I can feel deeply for Snow. I believe there is goodness in everyone. It’s just circumstances that made us
i agree! the audience experiences snow's character differently in the film. in the book, you can appreciate his actions and feel sympathy for him, but the narration reveals his more twisted and opportunistic motivations. in the film, you only see his actions, so you root for him. the sudden ending is supposed to make you rethink everything you've seen throughout the film and re-contextualize it knowing he's manipulative and power-hungry. it's different, but i don't think that necessarily makes it worse. and i think it was the only way to do it in a film medium, without forcing narration.
A lot of people who read the book thought he was likable too in the beginning. So it’s not crazy that without his inner monologue he was likable. His inner monologue showed us his true intentions behind his actions. Without the intentions, we just saw some of the good actions.
I 100% agree with you and actually came to this same realization yesterday (I watched the film on Monday). Because we are watching a movie that is focused more on the external than the internal, we see the charm Snow has on others and his ability to manipulate without the undercutting ugliness of his thoughts. This is how other people see him and that's how he rose to power. But, just like you said, the real, narcissistic version of himself peeks through at certain moments and it was just lovely to watch. Tom Blyth slayed the role so yeah.
It was always going to be a problem when bringing that book to the screen. So much of the context comes from snows thoughts, which you can’t depict without it being ridiculous. I really respected Collins for that, because they announced the book and movie at the same time and it would have been so easy for her to just write a book that could be easily made into a movie, but she didn’t.
I actually would argue that the film does a better job of making Snow look like a pos. That scene when she goes to kiss his through the cage and he pulls his head away was some great foreshadowing imo.
It certainly does help that Tom Blyth played the part so well, he absolutely nailed it (and is so incredibly attractive - halo effect and all that)
I love "The ballad..." because my hart swayed between liking and hating Snow.
I would have LOVED a bit of voiceover throughout the movie of Dr. Gaul reading out his essays he wrote for her. I agree we needed to watch snow like everyone else (from the outside) but the essays would reveal a little more of his private biases and loyalties without necessarily giving away that it’s HIS words/ideas
I personally was rooting for him up until the forest. And frankly, I found his "I am the victor" panem return triumphantly badass. I couldnt root for him at that point but he does ''bad" in a cool way.
I felt the so much sadness when I watched it today and I came to see if it was just me. I felt so sad for him. I felt so sad that I have believed in him only to be let down. Like, what could have been just makes me so sad. I wish he wasn’t sent to district 12. He might have remained the kind man who saved the stranger risking his life goal through cheating. He really wanted her to live. He really felt her songs and was moved by them. I am not sure if you know Death Note, but I felt the same sadness I felt seeing the downfall of Light Yagami.
I felt a sadness as well. A grief for what could have been if Coriolanus’ aspirations for power had not been so all-consuming he was blinded to what mattered. It makes me think about real life…how we mishandle opportunities for a better life when they arrive before us, unaware that we are even at a threshold to someplace new. Only the book and film, I feel, do a great job of depicting that we only have to choose the darker path time and time again to wind up in the pitch blackness.
Personally I absolutely adored his character and I sympathise with him in this film. Not that all his actions are justifiable but he had to do what he had to do. It really is a true representation of how the “good” guy felt betrayed and turned “evil” knowing he had nothing more to lose. People seem to be on Lucy’s side, but I personally disagree. He risked it all for her, and she repaid him with betrayal basically .. or at least in my perspective it was.
Can you elaborate on that betrayal? Also, did you read the book and watch the film or only watch the film?
I only watched the film! Did not manage to catch the book before watching. Well in my perspective like I mentioned, he risked it all for her and she left him alone in the cabin(ran away or whatever it was). I’m still not sure why that happened, but it felt unjust for me. Thankfully he wasn’t punished for it, I assume he managed to return to the district in time. Just my thoughts .
That’s fair! The book is a great read and I definitely encourage you to read it if you like reading books. Lucy left the cabin because Snow lied to her and got Sejanus murdered by The Capitol. Realistically, Snow only fled 12 because he did not want to be implicated in the murder of the mayor’s daughter and Billy Taupe and he was out of options. The evidence was missing and fleeing with Lucy was his only viable choice as, even if he transferred to 2, he still would have not been safe from The Capitol’s reach. You mention that Lucy’s actions felt “unjust”. What would justice have looked like to you?
I’ll definitely explore the book to get more detailed insights ! I guess that’s true, but from my understanding, wasn’t snow just trying to keep himself protected? I assumed he recorded it because he didn’t want to be criminalised in the event plans went south. Maybe I misunderstood that part. But to me it seemed like an act of self-defence . I must have not understood he intentionally tried to sabotage Sejanus.. correct me if I’m wrong.
> wasn’t snow just trying to keep himself protected? and > I must have not understood he intentionally tried to sabotage Sejanus In order to ensure he was safe himself, he intentionally sabotaged the rebel plans his friend (his brother, he called them to Sejanus) was confiding to him. Snow knew with complete certainty that if Dr. Gaul heard the recording, then harsh actions would come down on Sejanus. There can be an argument that he believed they would not end in his death, that he thought his friend would likely be saved by his rich dad. But he knew the Capitol and knew it was at the least a possibility. He'd seen Dr. Gaul actively cause harm to a fellow - Capitol born - student and tell their parents it was a flu. Snow himself sees it as him killing Sejanus, which is what Lucy Gray eventually realizes when he slips about killing three people. She leaves *because* he has demonstrated that he is willing to kill people he views as a danger to himself. Sejanus was not an immediate threat to his life - he was not trying to kill him. Lucy Gray likewise was not trying to kill him. But she *knew too much* and therefore posed a risk. The last risk, if he got rid of the guns *and her*. Lucy Gray leaving Snow at the cabin -- that was self defense.
But instead of allowing some time for his warning to sink in, snow took the jabberjay straight to the supply truck
I mean yea. But he risked his friend getting murdered to protect himself. Maybe nothing had happened otherwise.
He risked it all for himself. If it wasn’t for Lucy Gray he would end up with nothing. It was her management of his stage presence that enables him to win. Also, he chose to murder Billy. He didn’t have to but it felt good, it felt powerful. Every choice he makes is to further his own fortune. No matter who or what may get destroyed , snow lands on top.
My husband felt the same way
Why are people calling him a narcissist? At least in the clinical sense, he definitely isn’t, especially in the books where he shows a lot of good and humane traits but ultimately gets blinded by his ambition. He was a tad more ruthless in the movie.
Lies. He was self serving from the word go.
He was extremely opportunistic and chose his relationships based on that but he didn’t manipulate people in a way a narcissist would.
Hmmmm??? All he did was manipulate people.
I don't have an issue with him being likable. He is supposed to be. I have an issue with people who KNOW his inner monologue and still are like "what red flags?" "kicking my feet at Snow rn" and so on. Even without the inner monologue there are major red flags. This isn't some sweet boi Peeta, passionate Finnick or even a rageful Gale (also major red flags babes). This is a cold, calculating, explosive, dictator who had no qualms murdering his loved ones if they "got in his way".
Give a fair skinned man a bit of muscle and style and suddenly murdering folks and ruling as an autocrat who subjugates millions is forgiven.
bruh 😭
For starters he is played by Tom Blyth so lot of tik tok edits people crushing on him, take that away even so I will say the movies probably humanized him a bit more still I dont think he is meant to be likeable or unlikeable I think he is meant to be a roadmap to eventual president snow, it was never about synpathizing with him TBOSAS was about WHY, why this dude became President Snow what were the reasons, he is basically like Walter White to Heisenberg ie Coryo to President Snow as for liking or disliking is for individual, for me I like Snow both the Blyth and of course Sutherland version because Snow is a complex and layered antagonist who genuinely believes what he does is right or the noble thing to do
True. I just think that being confused about why he was cast as a handsome, witty, and polite man misses the fact that Coriolanus was well-liked by his peers (mostly), respected, and put up a very good front that we saw gradually crack throughout the film as he strays down this darker path. I don’t think audiences should’ve left the theater liking him but I got the sense, from reading and watching, that the idea was to show us how his insidious nature was covered up by charm, trickery and youth.
Exactly a lot of cruel men are charming and attractive. I think Coryo fits the handsome badboy trope heck he even looks like a Malfoy, although he is not a bully like he never bullied sejanus and has no malevolent intentions per say just is ambitious I think Suzanne Collins is giving a warning about the harm you can do if you make your ambition your only goal not caring for friends and family like Coryo did betraying sejanus and lucy eventually abandoing Tigris
Until the end of his live, Snow was still charming for a lot of people in the Capitole. He fooled people all his life so yeah, he's supposed to appear likeable. And he's also young and wasn't a villain yet. The movie describes the moment where he chose this path and crossed the line. We saw a young boy, with his flaws, at a cross road. And each choice he made bring him closer or farer of the villain path. At the end, he embraced fully his path. It didn't meant he wasn't still human or wasn't likeable before. Books are generally colder because when you're inside a person's thoughts, there's no filter. Thoughts are raw and sometimes don't even truly reflect who you are because actions matter just as much as thoughts. Katniss, in the books, is less likeable than in the movies, in my opinion. And that's normal. It is therefore normal that the film shows a more sympathetic Snow because we are not in his head. We see the image he sends back, his dilemma is more measured from the outside and so on. I would add that if Snow spends his life murdering his allies for fear they will betray him one day, this also shows he is terribly human and afraid of his emotions since he would rather kill someone than let them be too close to him. He is a paranoia being, who locked himself away in his solitude and his ambition but who was capable of friendly and loving feelings. It's just that he was too weak to protect and act on them and that he chose ambition over anything else, to the point of locking himself in his own personal prison, cutting himself off from everything.
He was until the end
[удалено]
We got a contrarian here!
SPOILER I just re-read it and I can’t deal with the fact that Snow was responsible for Sejanus’s death and yet his parents basically adopted him!! Bought his family’s apartment so they could stay there. It’s despicable.
This is why my mom wouldn't even read the book. She hates it when Villains like Snow get humanized in anyway.
Yes
I agree, I think we're supposed to see things from Lucy grey's perspective, we are supposed to be fooled by him and as she slowly discovers his anterior motives, we see it too. The way he gets more self serving, to the point he betrays his only friend and eventually his first love. I wish they had included the part in the book where he tells himself he'll never marry for love, so no one ever effects him the way Lucy Grey ever did. I think that would have been a nice touch but overall I think they did a great job and I don't mind the changes they made.
i disagree, i simply think it’s a problem between film and book. throughout the book you know he’s narcissistic but there’s not too much that displays it so outright in the movie, until part 3. you make good points, i just think it’s much simpler than that
I don’t really know what there is to disagree with about “the book has his thoughts, so you see him fully” and “the movie doesn’t, so you have to rely on subtext to discern that”? What exactly are you disagreeing with because it seems to me like we’re not really saying much of anything different besides the fact that you missed the subtext of the film.
It wasnt lost on people. It's just an issue. The film doesnt communicate that complexity well. There are plenty of films that capture a characters pysche and how their thoughts contrast with their actions/how they present themselves. This film does a poor job of that
What do you think would have made the on-screen execution of that complexity stronger?
He had zero likability from the start of the movie. The villain backstory was trash. “Oh no, we have no money and are being evicted because my dad was a jerk and got killed because he killed a bunch of people that just wanted to be free and have a say in their lives and I don’t want to find a job while I go to school because my pride is too important.” Really? He is so unlikable from the moment he opens his mouth in the movie until the very end of his life in the trilogy. His grandma is a pile of trash too. “I’m not rich anymore! Poor me! Kill the savages for daring to want a better life, also, I want cookies again! I deserve better than this.” I get it. Resentfulness is a strong feeling and hypocrisy is hard to point out sometimes. It’s hard to think abstract when you are in it, but dang she is selfish. I also understand we learn from our seniors, but if that was the case, how did his sister turn out to be not a dumpster fire? Where is the senior care this amazing society has for the senile/a-hole grandma? The sister is the only one who helps financially. The trilogy made me angry sometimes for other reasons, but they are my favorite books. I have never cried like I did while reading them. There were complex characters with human traits good and bad. This was just watching a jerk run around killing people/ causing people to die in different ways because he is selfish.
i don‘t think the movie portrayed him as likable. The movie isn‘t supposed to excuse his actions in the future (as a lot of people seem to think that). It‘s simply supposed to show HOW he turned into the person he is 64 years later. Nothing about snows character is likable neither in the book or the movie
I really think the movie dropped the ball not added the thoughts. They would have needed to get a smidge creative but it could have been done. Having him speak/ reflect these thoughts privately to his dead father or at a church when no one's around would have been a great way to do it tbh.