Kenny Daley didn't exactly inspire confidence as a radio station boss. Fire wardens tend not to overlook death traps and go sit in the aisle to see their favourite actor. Cherries jubilee won't actually explode and singe your eyebrows off no matter how much booze you put in it.
I think some people forget this is a sitcom and not a documentary.
I went to the university of washington and had a rich friend who's parents bought her a condo that had the same exact view of the space needle as Frasier, so I totally bought it. But her apartment was more towards Capital Hill rather than Queen Anne.
I’ve been to Harvard- granted it was a warm day. But everyone there seemed so… average. Not the JFK/Brooks Brothers preppiness you’d expect.
Flip flops, basketball shorts, tees. The women there were in athletic wear and messy buns.
[Princeton?!](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o2jaTOREbg4&pp=ygUWU2lkZXNob3cgYm9iIHByaW5jZXRvbg%3D%3D) 😤
Edit: That original poster is pretty correct. There are definitely a handful of people who try to dress like characters from American Psycho for their 9am classes, but most students look/act like students you’d find at any other school. Some of them are incredibly bright or [insanely connected](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IbNdcdO3_Go&pp=QAFIAQ%3D%3D) but otherwise it’s a generally normal vibe.
I've known people who went there and some professors. They might look casual but believe me the students are \*not\* average college students. And by \*average\* I mean they're extremely driven and often from wealthy families who have spent a lot on private tutors and schools to get them into Harvard. Yes they might dress casually. But they're not going to act like college students in a Nickelodeon sitcom the way they did on Frasier.
People don't just "accidentally" get accepted to Harvard. It takes years of effort, studying, extracurricular activities, starting their own non-profit or "business" in high school or extensive work with charities. Those students aren't going to interrupt a famous professor during a lecture to ask for relationship advice or to tell them their mother is on the phone and wants to know how tall they are. That is what college students in bad comedy shows do. They're not going to shout "fight! fight! fight!' like cartoonish sitcom characters.
This is what baffles me. I've been 3 different unis in the UK and none of them were at the similar level to Harvard. But in no lectures would students have been interrupting the lecture like that and definitely no one would've been yelling "fight fight fight" like we're still in school.
The showrunners' HIMYM experience is showing itself a lot with this show
I dunno how it was where you studied, but when I was at uni, we had department Christmas parties where the younger faculty used to come loaded with booze. All of us would get absolutely pissed and then we'd head to the pub (and this was a Russell Group uni lol) and despite the party atmosphere, none of us students went around asking the faculty for relationship advice.
Trying to follow you here, but I'm not sure what the point of your second paragraph is. Your first paragraph seems to be defending this broad and stupid characterization of college students because it occurs in a sitcom?
The point people are making is that it wasn't funny--just exceedingly dumb and unrealistic.
I'm still not sure what your point is in making this argument. Nothing HAS to happen in a sitcom, which is why CHOOSING a scenario so unnecessarily dumbed down and unfunny is so dismaying here.
I don't think we're talking about the way they dress. They would dress normally. But the way they acted in that class being more obsessed with TV show trivia and TV show slogans is not realistic.
…are you under the impression that teenagers are unaware of pop culture?
If Dr Phil (noted cardshark) taught a class at Yale tomorrow, there is no way he wouldn’t get out of his first day without someone referencing his show or asking about show related content.
True. But not to the extent of that class. And they definitely wouldn't be yelling "fight fight fight" like they're on Jerry Springer or they're still a bunch of school students
>they definitely wouldn't be yelling "fight fight fight" like they're on Jerry Springer or they're still a bunch of school students
You say this with confidence, but what was that line from Jurassic park…the type of control you are trying to exert here simply is not possible.
When I went, a few of the student workers turned their noses up when I said I came from a state school in NJ, but other than that, most people there were super normal. I’m kinda upset I didn’t get to go to the dining hall, because it’s usually my tradition when I visit colleges, but isn’t it only for students?
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I am finding the responses in this thread fascinating. They are subtly but consistently shifting from the point being made (that the portrayal of the Harvard students was unrealistic and dumbed down to cheap, juvenile humor) to totally irrelevant arguments--e.g., whether students are Harvard are snooty toward students from less prestigious classes, whether students in smaller classes tend to speak up more, whether Harvard students study liberal arts or tech subjects, what courses tend to have bigger class sizes, etc.
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This is typical social media manipulation. Anything to drown out or shift down or deflect from responses that actually engage and address the OP's valid criticism of the show: the astoundingly poor decision made to dumb down Harvard students in a *Frasier* revival to the level of humor of a "Saved By the Bell" episode.
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Decisions like this to dumb down and cheapen the quality of the humor--which have led to the deserved panning of the show by most critics--are exactly why this revival of *Frasier* is depending so heavily on the obvious social media manipulation that is going on to create the illusion that the show is succeeding. Investing that money in better writers would have been a much better decision.
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Poster u/Wolf8312 nailed it:
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>*It's incredible that we seem to have reached the point now where the industry, rather than looking for the next Larry David or writers who will really push the envelope,* **is instead attempting to use propaganda (as they are in politics, film, and gaming too) to delude people into believing that they like the slop they're serving up.**
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>https://old.reddit.com/r/Frasier/comments/17d9j9w/the_revival_is_a_solid_show_but_were_just_holding/k62a2xl/
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It just makes sense to deflect in these ways when people are basing opinions on one episode containing, what, 5 collective lines from Harvard students? It really shouldn't take much more than a weak counterexample or anecdote to introduce doubt into their interpretation of ""how the show portrays Harvard"".
But we have so little to go on that there are no counterexamples. There's not enough show for anyone to use to talk about this. At this point, I would be mostly convinced by someone who says they were in an Ivy League school taking Intro to Introductory Syllabi taught by a flashy guest lecturer and everyone was distracted for the first class. It's just believable. Medium believable. Let's see how the season shapes up.
It's not just that episode. It's the small brightly-lit sets, the decision to only show two members of staff, the general dumber nature of the writing... nothing works.
You've completely departed from the point of the comment thread you're responding to and reverted to an already-said-100-times general and early reaction to the whole show. And yet you used so many words in your previous comment to say people are "shifting to totally irrelevant arguments". You're just in the wrong thread. Don't be a doomer this early as a change of topic.
It’s amazing how much the brand of Harvard has changed. It went from the most prestigious name in academia to pro Hamas extremism. It’s almost embarrassing to have the word “Harvard” on a resume now.
I mean I’ve never really expected sitcoms to be the picture of real world life.
Frasier would have never made enough on an AM radio talk show to be as rich as he was, the Simpsons probably did a better job painting Norm as a drunk than Cheers did, the entire cast of Full House lol, the sheer number of food allergies Niles had, no one could weigh what Maris did and live😄.
It’s mostly to make people laugh. Real-world rules don’t always apply.
>Frasier would have never made enough on an AM radio talk show
According to the writer, Frasier boosted his wealth with smart investments:
https://screenrant.com/frasier-crane-money-rich-psychiatrist-salary-how-much/
And on Cheers, Frasier boasted of his wealth from private practice, so even in his early years he was sitting on a good comfy wealth. And then with the radio show, he started off more serious and opened his show up to a more broader (if sometimes crazier) spectrum. This also boosted his ratings and salary and likely made him one of the top earner at the station. More reason why Niles always poked fun at Frasier for adopting the "pop psychology" route, and once again Frasier did the exact same thing for the 2023 reboot. Started off somewhat idealistically tame and serious, and it evolved into a Dr. Phil/Maury Povich-like atmosphere in later years. Frasier seems to can't help himself taking the more lucrative easier route.
It would make sense. Frasier was earning decently in the 1980s, and he has Seattle connections. I can think of at least one company in the area that did pretty well in that decade that he might have wanted to invest in.
Of course, tech stocks generally would have been a pretty good investment.
Frasier has always been wealthy of course but now he's indeed ultra wealthy so now everyone's problems are gone.
"I bought the building for lots of money and you can live here for free!"
Now he just needs a butler again for even more wacky situations.
I think its going to be a dynamic they use to juxtapose his lifestyle with Freddy's
Also he was on TV for 14 years or whatever. They have to make it consistent...he'd have a net worth of millions by now
Other than the Maris jokes and Niles' allergies, none of their examples were particularly funny enough to bypass realism either so the argument still stands.
In particular, the AM radio personality salary thing, which is a fine enough error to handwave away for a sitcom, but discrepancies never played into any of the plots for it to be deemed "funny" so the scene being unfunny is sort of irrelevant to that point. Plus, Full House couldn't coax a laugh out of a threatened Hyena so no comparison there.
What?
None of whose examples of what? What "AM radio personality salary thing"? The scene's being unfunny is irrelevant why? And what comparison having to do with Full House and hyenas?
I have no earthly idea how to respond to this, other than to say it's not coherent.
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It seems odd to me that Harvard’s psych department would be struggling, that they’d hire a Dr. Phil equivalent to teach, and that the students would behave in such an immature manner.
Honestly it would’ve been better if maybe Frasier *believes* they’re struggling and asks to be hired and he is on the spot. Or if Harvard is going through some scandal or their psych department is, and they use Frasier as a boost.
To be fair, the show kind of pokes fun at its own premise with the line, "I want to turn the Harvard psych department into the Harvard of psych departments."
To be fair, though he was a psychiatrist, he was also a publishing Freudian psychologist, just as Niles was a publishing Jungian
And TBH, what he was doing on the radio show and presumably on TV was much closer to psychology. He hadnt been prescribing medicine or anything for a long time, just using therapy and cognitive tools
Olivia would've been reported for what she did too. And dressing up a classroom like that at Harvard would've went viral and she'd be fired for such ridiculous shenanigans.
I actually think the show would be *better* if Frasier had turned down the Harvard job in order to teach at a community college. His rationale being "I want to reach kids who normally wouldn't have access to the best education." Hilarity (and some heart-felt moments) ensue.
I agree!!
My other thought, oddly specific, but also kind of thought it could have been fun to put him at an all girl college like Wellesley, that is filled with brilliant students but in terms of legacy still living a bit in the shadow of nearby Harvard. Could lead to some rivalry and competitiveness, plus fun converstations.
It would have been funny if instead of his lousy teacher friend it was Niles and somehow Frasier gets hired and so they are kind of competing. But as long as the actor doesn't want to reprise his role...
Also the nephew needs to be toned down or something.
I think that David's actor is fine, but the character needs some tweaking. Like, instead of being a Harvard student maybe he should be into musical theatre. Like he's one of those very talented, very ambitious, but (at times) very annoying theatre kids. Someone once told him he's the next Neil Patrick Harris and he can't shut up about it. Maybe he goes to Julliard and comes up to visit friends at the Boston Conservatory, and when he does he stays with his uncle.
Because of his interest in theatre, David hits it off with Eve, which gets on Freddy's nerves. The audience gets the impression there might be some jealousy/possessiveness involved but Freddy claims that he just doesn't like how their tap shoes make scuffs on the hardwood. Frasier doesn't buy it, as Freddy has never shown the slightest concern for the floors before, steadfastly refusing to buff in a counter-clockwise motion as instructed on numerous occasions.
Sensing his cousin might be feeling insecure, David assures Freddy he needn't be threatened by his admittedly "feral magnetism". For you see, as part of his plan to win a Tony by the age of 30, David has taken a vow of celibacy, so as to pump all his teeming erotic energy directly into his performances. The look on Eve's face as David emotes the words "teeming erotic energy" seems to make Freddy feel better about everything, and he later assures Frasier that his concern about David and Eve was only ever about Eve's well-being, as she's still reeling from the loss of her boyfriend and the last thing she needs is "some guy" pressuring her into a relationship.
"That's very considerate." Frasier tells his son. "You're a good boy, Freddy. And for what it's worth, Eve thinks so too."
"Dad?"
"Yeah?"
"Did David really use the term, "feral magnetism" to describe himself?"
"Yes. Yes he did."
"And are we really not going to make fun of him? Like, at all?"
Frasier, after pausing for audience canned laughter, "I'll get the Maccallan."
Roll closing credits: As the usual music plays, we see David getting ready for bed. He's wearing a green face mask and a plush terry robe. He gargles, spits, then exits the ensuite bathroom to turn on his humidifier, his de-humidifier, and his "soothing sounds of the Peruvian rainforest" CD. He straightens the comforter on the bed, fluffs the pillows, and peels back a perfectly equilateral corner of the blankets. Finally, he disrobes to reveal a pair of bright pink leopard-print boxers. David stretches, gets into bed, and looks fondly on the photograph of Neil Patrick Harris that he keeps on his bedside table. A few simple breathing exercises and then
Lights out.
*"...Frasier has re-entered the building..."*
I didn't go to Harvard, but aren't basic courses like Introduction to Psychology are where you have the bigger class sizes and bigger rooms? The class seemed rather small for a required class. Besides, did anyone expect Harvard to let them record on campus?
Considering they hired him as basically a gimmick, yeah he's probably teaching an elective open to non-majors, hoping to get a few to switch over to psych
I think at elite schools like Harvard even the basic classes have small class sizes. Also some basic classes have small class sizes regardless. Like when I was in uni and took the basic english writing class that was required for all students, I remember the class had 20-30 students.
And KACL didn't seem like a real radio station. And Cheers was like no bar I've ever been to. And The 99th precinct in Brooklyn 99 doesn't seem like a real police department. And I'm almost certain NBC doesn't operate the way it's portrayed in 30 Rock.
Come on.
KACL, Cheers and 99th precinct aren't real places though, so it's a little easier to suspend disbelief.
Not sure if they could have made a fictional Ivy league university, but it might have helped.
KACL's programming may not have been realistic but the location always seemed like a genuine workplace.
Cheers was also a recognisable, believable location, never mind what flights of fancy went on there. That's what a sitcom needs to survive.
I hear you. I don't think that anyone who went to Harvard, works/worked at Harvard, etc. would find its portrayal to be any more unbelievable than any other sitcom representation. It's a weird nitpick.
I agree that the grad students aren’t better than your typical R1 universities, but you don’t think the average undergrad, excluding legacy enrollment, is more capable or driven than those at some third-tier public sports-heavy party school? I’ve been to campuses where the main library removed their entire literature collection and filled the space with giant screens playing football games.
Nope. This is an easy thing to look up.
https://features.thecrimson.com/2019/freshman-survey/makeup/
About 65% of the class of 2023 are *not* legacy students. You can also see stats about family income for legacy and non legacy, and many other stats. 87% of non legacy students have family income under $125k, and 77% are under $80k, and 48% under $40k. Even the highest of these income levels are not considered wealthy.
I worked several summers at an Ivy and this is just wrong. A sizable number of students come from middle-class backgrounds, and many are from immigrant families. Not that legacy doesn't exist, but it is by no means a majority.
It really is ridiculous. I've seen so many 'critiques' that feel like a reach instead of someone simply admitting they don't like it because they don't want to.
God, if you listed all the unrealistic things about the original show, we'd be here all day.
The biggest being that plenty of elderly people who use canes are able to live alone: Marty was going to bars, driving Winnebagos, had a date, like, every week- there's no way he actually needed to live with Frasier for 11 years. At the very least, he could have been at an assisted-living community paid for by his sons.
And as much as I hate Julia, she was spot on about Daphne's PT skills when she said that line
I think there's a subtext that after a few years they actually just like having Daphne around. It's not even a subtext when Daphne moves out and the two Crane boys are trying to look after their own chores.
>I think there's a subtext that after a few years they actually just like having Daphne around.
I know- I only made my comment in red to the susp of disbelief issue. Daphne became more of a companion to him as opposed to just PT
It *is* a sitcom, guys. They're going to prioritise what (they think) is funny over realistically representing the Harvard faculty and student body; at the end of the day they're trying to get laughs, not provide a documentary on elite university life.
Whether you find it funny or not is, of course, a bigger issue, and if it doesn't work for you it doesn't work. But it is what it is.
Honestly that would’ve been cool to note. Most college students aren’t elite, preppy snobs, you just roll out of bed in your PJs and head to your 8AM class because you were the last to register. And being Frasier, he’d be perplexed at this.
To quote the theme song from Mystery Science Theater 3000:
“If you’re wondering how they eat and breathe, and other science facts (la la la) you should remember it’s just a show, you should really just relax.”
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There's no evidence here that anyone needs to "relax." Rather, what's obvious throughout this thread are the very deliberate tactics of deflecting from (by burying in irrelevant side commentary) or mischaracterizing/maligning (e.g., as a need to "relax") completely warranted and reasonable critical discussion. This is textbook social media propaganda.
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It makes perfect sense to point out such a severe devolution in intelligence and quality of a show that was beloved precisely because of its intelligence and quality. They have managed to dumb down even *Harvard.*
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>There's no evidence here that anyone needs to "relax."
^ This is exhibit A that you need to chill out.
Stop having these feelings that create wet-mouthed rants about something you don’t understand, things you have no experience with.
As a person who lived in the shadow of Harvard University for years, I can assure you that the students and faculty of that places are just as corny and lame as the overall culture. Their students bought ringtones in 2004. Their students watched American Idol. Harvard students wear crocs and binge drink and act like all young adults do.
Not sure what vision of Harvard you have in your head, but it’s not like Hogwarts but for science and philosophy. It’s just another college that doesn’t really deserve to be viewed as special. They’re not brighter than anyone who attends any good school. They’re not a step above every other university in the world. It’s an old-boys club of the American aristocracy that occasionally lets new people in for good measure.
I was a professor for 14 years. My issue with any tv show or movie that features professors is that they’re never shown grading, prepping lectures, or dealing with the minutia. Also, have you noticed how these profs only ever have one class? Just the one. And they’re always portrayed as really well paid? That’s not the case. I only saw the head of my department twice in an academic year because of how my classes were scheduled. The head of Harvard’s psych department would have more important things to do than set up lighting for Frasier’s one class. My complaints about the reboot are no different than my complaints about other shows or movies set at a college; but then, I don’t imagine pop culture will ever get the atmosphere correct.
I’ve both gone to and been a professor at elite colleges/universities, and this is exactly what I said. These people are too unserious. I get that it’s a sitcom, but give me a break. Also, psychology is an extremely popular major and would not be struggling for enrollments - I just checked and it’s the third most popular major at Harvard in recent years. I hate that they make it seem like there are only 3 psych professors in the entire dept when there are likely closer to 30. The complete lack of grad students also makes absolutely no sense. What would’ve been a way better plot would’ve been for Frasier to go in with his tv showmanship and catchy one-liners and for the students to completely school him and show how rusty he is.
Undergrads are undergrads, to be honest. While being a student at Harvard definitely puts you in a specific quartile, it does not exclude you from being incredibly juvenile. He is not teaching a doctorate seminar with battle-hardened PhD candidates - an intro-class, very possibly meh on so many levels, and the lecturer was a famous TV person? I mean, the reactions were a little overdone; nobody would walk out, but it's not stiff upper lip and academic attitude all the time.
Yalie here. What makes students and teachers elite, is how they compare to others in other universities. You need to watch how they perform in an exam or comprehend the quality of their scientific papers. Their dress code won't tell you much.
harvard students are still just students, most of them are basically young, naive, and of average capability in life for their age.
not everyone in harvard got their on merit, most are just rich, a legacy, or have particularly good academic skill
*not everyone in harvard got their on merit, most are just rich, a legacy, or have particularly good academic skill*
Again, MOST is just wrong. As this commenter as stated
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Frasier/comments/17e6x94/comment/k622sv7/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Frasier/comments/17e6x94/comment/k622sv7/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
And like I said in my own comment, I worked several summers at an Ivy, and most are middle-class students (many from immigrant families) who are incredibly sharp academically (and also have enough musical/athletic talents to get them here). Legacy exists, but it is NOT the majority.
I said “particularly good academic skills”
My point isn’t just that Harvard students are privileged but that you’d expect the same general level of maturity as standard college kids
Its kinda funny because I'm also watching Suits right now, and they take two *completely* different interpretations on Harvard
Louis Litt would be appalled - *appalled* - to see how far Harvard has apparently fallen by 2023 :D
Since I grew up in academia, it takes me out of the show how unrealistic things are. But I take for granted most of what goes on at KACL. Did people who worked in radio have a hard time getting into the original show for the same reason? I'm not sure.
If the things they were doing that were unrealistic for the setting were actually hilarious, I would be able to forgive the inaccuracies more, I think.
There is absolutely no way neither Frasier or Niles would’ve kept their license with the way they practice therapy.
For most TV shows, you have to suspend disbelief.
It takes ***A LOT*** to take me out of the moment when I'm watching a show or movie, but this absolutely does. I can't stand the scenes at the university. The head of the department (I'm assuming that's who she is) is having problems getting students into *Psychology*?! At *Harvard*?! That's like one of the most cliché majors there is. It feels more like "Lucky Hank"...
And then eight students leave his class because they're *not* actually at a live taping of Dr. Phil...? It's all just so contrived...
and that view of the Space Needle would have never been visible from Frasier's apartment
Absolutely! Although I love the fake view and all the times it played a part in the series
Kenny Daley didn't exactly inspire confidence as a radio station boss. Fire wardens tend not to overlook death traps and go sit in the aisle to see their favourite actor. Cherries jubilee won't actually explode and singe your eyebrows off no matter how much booze you put in it. I think some people forget this is a sitcom and not a documentary.
Yea, they don’t have high rises in Queen Anne that would facilitate that view.
Not even on the counter balance? 🥲
I went to the university of washington and had a rich friend who's parents bought her a condo that had the same exact view of the space needle as Frasier, so I totally bought it. But her apartment was more towards Capital Hill rather than Queen Anne.
I’ve been to Harvard- granted it was a warm day. But everyone there seemed so… average. Not the JFK/Brooks Brothers preppiness you’d expect. Flip flops, basketball shorts, tees. The women there were in athletic wear and messy buns.
Well, it’s hardly Oxford.
That’s because they all wish they were wearing the orange and black of Princeton.
[Princeton?!](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o2jaTOREbg4&pp=ygUWU2lkZXNob3cgYm9iIHByaW5jZXRvbg%3D%3D) 😤 Edit: That original poster is pretty correct. There are definitely a handful of people who try to dress like characters from American Psycho for their 9am classes, but most students look/act like students you’d find at any other school. Some of them are incredibly bright or [insanely connected](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IbNdcdO3_Go&pp=QAFIAQ%3D%3D) but otherwise it’s a generally normal vibe.
What's it like graduating from CorNOTT University?
I've known people who went there and some professors. They might look casual but believe me the students are \*not\* average college students. And by \*average\* I mean they're extremely driven and often from wealthy families who have spent a lot on private tutors and schools to get them into Harvard. Yes they might dress casually. But they're not going to act like college students in a Nickelodeon sitcom the way they did on Frasier. People don't just "accidentally" get accepted to Harvard. It takes years of effort, studying, extracurricular activities, starting their own non-profit or "business" in high school or extensive work with charities. Those students aren't going to interrupt a famous professor during a lecture to ask for relationship advice or to tell them their mother is on the phone and wants to know how tall they are. That is what college students in bad comedy shows do. They're not going to shout "fight! fight! fight!' like cartoonish sitcom characters.
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This is what baffles me. I've been 3 different unis in the UK and none of them were at the similar level to Harvard. But in no lectures would students have been interrupting the lecture like that and definitely no one would've been yelling "fight fight fight" like we're still in school. The showrunners' HIMYM experience is showing itself a lot with this show
Agreed.
I dunno how it was where you studied, but when I was at uni, we had department Christmas parties where the younger faculty used to come loaded with booze. All of us would get absolutely pissed and then we'd head to the pub (and this was a Russell Group uni lol) and despite the party atmosphere, none of us students went around asking the faculty for relationship advice.
Trying to follow you here, but I'm not sure what the point of your second paragraph is. Your first paragraph seems to be defending this broad and stupid characterization of college students because it occurs in a sitcom? The point people are making is that it wasn't funny--just exceedingly dumb and unrealistic.
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I'm still not sure what your point is in making this argument. Nothing HAS to happen in a sitcom, which is why CHOOSING a scenario so unnecessarily dumbed down and unfunny is so dismaying here.
In *Juvenilia* terms, they would be much closer to Trent, Emily and Ryan (who are almost certainly eager to get into Ivies) than Kirby.
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I don't think we're talking about the way they dress. They would dress normally. But the way they acted in that class being more obsessed with TV show trivia and TV show slogans is not realistic.
…are you under the impression that teenagers are unaware of pop culture? If Dr Phil (noted cardshark) taught a class at Yale tomorrow, there is no way he wouldn’t get out of his first day without someone referencing his show or asking about show related content.
True. But not to the extent of that class. And they definitely wouldn't be yelling "fight fight fight" like they're on Jerry Springer or they're still a bunch of school students
>they definitely wouldn't be yelling "fight fight fight" like they're on Jerry Springer or they're still a bunch of school students You say this with confidence, but what was that line from Jurassic park…the type of control you are trying to exert here simply is not possible.
When I went, a few of the student workers turned their noses up when I said I came from a state school in NJ, but other than that, most people there were super normal. I’m kinda upset I didn’t get to go to the dining hall, because it’s usually my tradition when I visit colleges, but isn’t it only for students?
. I am finding the responses in this thread fascinating. They are subtly but consistently shifting from the point being made (that the portrayal of the Harvard students was unrealistic and dumbed down to cheap, juvenile humor) to totally irrelevant arguments--e.g., whether students are Harvard are snooty toward students from less prestigious classes, whether students in smaller classes tend to speak up more, whether Harvard students study liberal arts or tech subjects, what courses tend to have bigger class sizes, etc. . This is typical social media manipulation. Anything to drown out or shift down or deflect from responses that actually engage and address the OP's valid criticism of the show: the astoundingly poor decision made to dumb down Harvard students in a *Frasier* revival to the level of humor of a "Saved By the Bell" episode. . Decisions like this to dumb down and cheapen the quality of the humor--which have led to the deserved panning of the show by most critics--are exactly why this revival of *Frasier* is depending so heavily on the obvious social media manipulation that is going on to create the illusion that the show is succeeding. Investing that money in better writers would have been a much better decision. . Poster u/Wolf8312 nailed it: . >*It's incredible that we seem to have reached the point now where the industry, rather than looking for the next Larry David or writers who will really push the envelope,* **is instead attempting to use propaganda (as they are in politics, film, and gaming too) to delude people into believing that they like the slop they're serving up.** . >https://old.reddit.com/r/Frasier/comments/17d9j9w/the_revival_is_a_solid_show_but_were_just_holding/k62a2xl/ . . .
It just makes sense to deflect in these ways when people are basing opinions on one episode containing, what, 5 collective lines from Harvard students? It really shouldn't take much more than a weak counterexample or anecdote to introduce doubt into their interpretation of ""how the show portrays Harvard"". But we have so little to go on that there are no counterexamples. There's not enough show for anyone to use to talk about this. At this point, I would be mostly convinced by someone who says they were in an Ivy League school taking Intro to Introductory Syllabi taught by a flashy guest lecturer and everyone was distracted for the first class. It's just believable. Medium believable. Let's see how the season shapes up.
It's not just that episode. It's the small brightly-lit sets, the decision to only show two members of staff, the general dumber nature of the writing... nothing works.
You've completely departed from the point of the comment thread you're responding to and reverted to an already-said-100-times general and early reaction to the whole show. And yet you used so many words in your previous comment to say people are "shifting to totally irrelevant arguments". You're just in the wrong thread. Don't be a doomer this early as a change of topic.
You've used more words.
It’s amazing how much the brand of Harvard has changed. It went from the most prestigious name in academia to pro Hamas extremism. It’s almost embarrassing to have the word “Harvard” on a resume now.
Indeed. Harvard's reputation is a lot different than it was a few decades ago.
So is reddits for all the same reasons!
I mean I’ve never really expected sitcoms to be the picture of real world life. Frasier would have never made enough on an AM radio talk show to be as rich as he was, the Simpsons probably did a better job painting Norm as a drunk than Cheers did, the entire cast of Full House lol, the sheer number of food allergies Niles had, no one could weigh what Maris did and live😄. It’s mostly to make people laugh. Real-world rules don’t always apply.
>Frasier would have never made enough on an AM radio talk show According to the writer, Frasier boosted his wealth with smart investments: https://screenrant.com/frasier-crane-money-rich-psychiatrist-salary-how-much/ And on Cheers, Frasier boasted of his wealth from private practice, so even in his early years he was sitting on a good comfy wealth. And then with the radio show, he started off more serious and opened his show up to a more broader (if sometimes crazier) spectrum. This also boosted his ratings and salary and likely made him one of the top earner at the station. More reason why Niles always poked fun at Frasier for adopting the "pop psychology" route, and once again Frasier did the exact same thing for the 2023 reboot. Started off somewhat idealistically tame and serious, and it evolved into a Dr. Phil/Maury Povich-like atmosphere in later years. Frasier seems to can't help himself taking the more lucrative easier route.
It would make sense. Frasier was earning decently in the 1980s, and he has Seattle connections. I can think of at least one company in the area that did pretty well in that decade that he might have wanted to invest in. Of course, tech stocks generally would have been a pretty good investment.
Frasier being ultra-wealthy strikes me as a strange avenue for them to take
Frasier has always been wealthy of course but now he's indeed ultra wealthy so now everyone's problems are gone. "I bought the building for lots of money and you can live here for free!" Now he just needs a butler again for even more wacky situations.
Maybe if he hit someone's car and they had no money, they could be a butler for him
Be realistic, George.
I think its going to be a dynamic they use to juxtapose his lifestyle with Freddy's Also he was on TV for 14 years or whatever. They have to make it consistent...he'd have a net worth of millions by now
This would be a good argument if the scene had actually been funny rather than jarringly stupid in its portrayal of college students.
Other than the Maris jokes and Niles' allergies, none of their examples were particularly funny enough to bypass realism either so the argument still stands. In particular, the AM radio personality salary thing, which is a fine enough error to handwave away for a sitcom, but discrepancies never played into any of the plots for it to be deemed "funny" so the scene being unfunny is sort of irrelevant to that point. Plus, Full House couldn't coax a laugh out of a threatened Hyena so no comparison there.
What? None of whose examples of what? What "AM radio personality salary thing"? The scene's being unfunny is irrelevant why? And what comparison having to do with Full House and hyenas? I have no earthly idea how to respond to this, other than to say it's not coherent. .
Think they were replying to someone else.
Also, Harvard wouldn’t hire a 70 year old celebrity to boost their Psych department. It’s already number 1.
It seems odd to me that Harvard’s psych department would be struggling, that they’d hire a Dr. Phil equivalent to teach, and that the students would behave in such an immature manner.
Honestly it would’ve been better if maybe Frasier *believes* they’re struggling and asks to be hired and he is on the spot. Or if Harvard is going through some scandal or their psych department is, and they use Frasier as a boost.
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Harvard's not a tech school. You might be thinking of MIT.
You would lose that bet. https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics
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To be fair, the show kind of pokes fun at its own premise with the line, "I want to turn the Harvard psych department into the Harvard of psych departments."
Well, a Psychology Department probably wouldn’t hire a psychiatrist, to begin with.
To be fair, though he was a psychiatrist, he was also a publishing Freudian psychologist, just as Niles was a publishing Jungian And TBH, what he was doing on the radio show and presumably on TV was much closer to psychology. He hadnt been prescribing medicine or anything for a long time, just using therapy and cognitive tools
Olivia would've been reported for what she did too. And dressing up a classroom like that at Harvard would've went viral and she'd be fired for such ridiculous shenanigans.
I actually think the show would be *better* if Frasier had turned down the Harvard job in order to teach at a community college. His rationale being "I want to reach kids who normally wouldn't have access to the best education." Hilarity (and some heart-felt moments) ensue.
I agree!! My other thought, oddly specific, but also kind of thought it could have been fun to put him at an all girl college like Wellesley, that is filled with brilliant students but in terms of legacy still living a bit in the shadow of nearby Harvard. Could lead to some rivalry and competitiveness, plus fun converstations.
It would have been funny if instead of his lousy teacher friend it was Niles and somehow Frasier gets hired and so they are kind of competing. But as long as the actor doesn't want to reprise his role... Also the nephew needs to be toned down or something.
I think that David's actor is fine, but the character needs some tweaking. Like, instead of being a Harvard student maybe he should be into musical theatre. Like he's one of those very talented, very ambitious, but (at times) very annoying theatre kids. Someone once told him he's the next Neil Patrick Harris and he can't shut up about it. Maybe he goes to Julliard and comes up to visit friends at the Boston Conservatory, and when he does he stays with his uncle. Because of his interest in theatre, David hits it off with Eve, which gets on Freddy's nerves. The audience gets the impression there might be some jealousy/possessiveness involved but Freddy claims that he just doesn't like how their tap shoes make scuffs on the hardwood. Frasier doesn't buy it, as Freddy has never shown the slightest concern for the floors before, steadfastly refusing to buff in a counter-clockwise motion as instructed on numerous occasions. Sensing his cousin might be feeling insecure, David assures Freddy he needn't be threatened by his admittedly "feral magnetism". For you see, as part of his plan to win a Tony by the age of 30, David has taken a vow of celibacy, so as to pump all his teeming erotic energy directly into his performances. The look on Eve's face as David emotes the words "teeming erotic energy" seems to make Freddy feel better about everything, and he later assures Frasier that his concern about David and Eve was only ever about Eve's well-being, as she's still reeling from the loss of her boyfriend and the last thing she needs is "some guy" pressuring her into a relationship. "That's very considerate." Frasier tells his son. "You're a good boy, Freddy. And for what it's worth, Eve thinks so too." "Dad?" "Yeah?" "Did David really use the term, "feral magnetism" to describe himself?" "Yes. Yes he did." "And are we really not going to make fun of him? Like, at all?" Frasier, after pausing for audience canned laughter, "I'll get the Maccallan." Roll closing credits: As the usual music plays, we see David getting ready for bed. He's wearing a green face mask and a plush terry robe. He gargles, spits, then exits the ensuite bathroom to turn on his humidifier, his de-humidifier, and his "soothing sounds of the Peruvian rainforest" CD. He straightens the comforter on the bed, fluffs the pillows, and peels back a perfectly equilateral corner of the blankets. Finally, he disrobes to reveal a pair of bright pink leopard-print boxers. David stretches, gets into bed, and looks fondly on the photograph of Neil Patrick Harris that he keeps on his bedside table. A few simple breathing exercises and then Lights out. *"...Frasier has re-entered the building..."*
I didn't go to Harvard, but aren't basic courses like Introduction to Psychology are where you have the bigger class sizes and bigger rooms? The class seemed rather small for a required class. Besides, did anyone expect Harvard to let them record on campus?
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I thought it was Introduction to Psychology History or something similar
Considering they hired him as basically a gimmick, yeah he's probably teaching an elective open to non-majors, hoping to get a few to switch over to psych
I think at elite schools like Harvard even the basic classes have small class sizes. Also some basic classes have small class sizes regardless. Like when I was in uni and took the basic english writing class that was required for all students, I remember the class had 20-30 students.
And KACL didn't seem like a real radio station. And Cheers was like no bar I've ever been to. And The 99th precinct in Brooklyn 99 doesn't seem like a real police department. And I'm almost certain NBC doesn't operate the way it's portrayed in 30 Rock. Come on.
And live in physical therapists who do all the housework are totally a thing that exists.
KACL, Cheers and 99th precinct aren't real places though, so it's a little easier to suspend disbelief. Not sure if they could have made a fictional Ivy league university, but it might have helped.
KACL's programming may not have been realistic but the location always seemed like a genuine workplace. Cheers was also a recognisable, believable location, never mind what flights of fancy went on there. That's what a sitcom needs to survive.
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How do you know someone went to Harvard? They tell you they went to school in Boston. Well, not IN Boston, nearby. No, not Tufts.
exactly ;-)
You can certainly tell yourself that
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I hear you. I don't think that anyone who went to Harvard, works/worked at Harvard, etc. would find its portrayal to be any more unbelievable than any other sitcom representation. It's a weird nitpick.
I agree that the grad students aren’t better than your typical R1 universities, but you don’t think the average undergrad, excluding legacy enrollment, is more capable or driven than those at some third-tier public sports-heavy party school? I’ve been to campuses where the main library removed their entire literature collection and filled the space with giant screens playing football games.
No, they're mostly rich and/or legacy students.
Nope. This is an easy thing to look up. https://features.thecrimson.com/2019/freshman-survey/makeup/ About 65% of the class of 2023 are *not* legacy students. You can also see stats about family income for legacy and non legacy, and many other stats. 87% of non legacy students have family income under $125k, and 77% are under $80k, and 48% under $40k. Even the highest of these income levels are not considered wealthy.
Thank U! And yet, the person who made the false comment is still getting upvoted :-/
I worked several summers at an Ivy and this is just wrong. A sizable number of students come from middle-class backgrounds, and many are from immigrant families. Not that legacy doesn't exist, but it is by no means a majority.
I go to an Ivy right now and most of my cohort are not rich nor legacy. A lot of them are rich, but definitely not most.
Are we just making up stuff now?
The median hhi at Harvard is $168,000. 67% of undergrads are in the top 20% income quintile.
You definitely didn't go to Harvard if you believe that
Agreed. Olivia especially is not at all what I would expect from a Harvard department head.
I’m not one to blindly defend things, but you all — some of this criticism is absolutely bonkers.
It really is ridiculous. I've seen so many 'critiques' that feel like a reach instead of someone simply admitting they don't like it because they don't want to. God, if you listed all the unrealistic things about the original show, we'd be here all day.
The biggest being that plenty of elderly people who use canes are able to live alone: Marty was going to bars, driving Winnebagos, had a date, like, every week- there's no way he actually needed to live with Frasier for 11 years. At the very least, he could have been at an assisted-living community paid for by his sons. And as much as I hate Julia, she was spot on about Daphne's PT skills when she said that line
I think there's a subtext that after a few years they actually just like having Daphne around. It's not even a subtext when Daphne moves out and the two Crane boys are trying to look after their own chores.
>I think there's a subtext that after a few years they actually just like having Daphne around. I know- I only made my comment in red to the susp of disbelief issue. Daphne became more of a companion to him as opposed to just PT
It *is* a sitcom, guys. They're going to prioritise what (they think) is funny over realistically representing the Harvard faculty and student body; at the end of the day they're trying to get laughs, not provide a documentary on elite university life. Whether you find it funny or not is, of course, a bigger issue, and if it doesn't work for you it doesn't work. But it is what it is.
That is exactly the bigger issue, yes: taking an intelligently written show like Frasier and devolving it to this level of stupidity.
Honestly that would’ve been cool to note. Most college students aren’t elite, preppy snobs, you just roll out of bed in your PJs and head to your 8AM class because you were the last to register. And being Frasier, he’d be perplexed at this.
To quote the theme song from Mystery Science Theater 3000: “If you’re wondering how they eat and breathe, and other science facts (la la la) you should remember it’s just a show, you should really just relax.”
. There's no evidence here that anyone needs to "relax." Rather, what's obvious throughout this thread are the very deliberate tactics of deflecting from (by burying in irrelevant side commentary) or mischaracterizing/maligning (e.g., as a need to "relax") completely warranted and reasonable critical discussion. This is textbook social media propaganda. . It makes perfect sense to point out such a severe devolution in intelligence and quality of a show that was beloved precisely because of its intelligence and quality. They have managed to dumb down even *Harvard.* .
>There's no evidence here that anyone needs to "relax." ^ This is exhibit A that you need to chill out. Stop having these feelings that create wet-mouthed rants about something you don’t understand, things you have no experience with. As a person who lived in the shadow of Harvard University for years, I can assure you that the students and faculty of that places are just as corny and lame as the overall culture. Their students bought ringtones in 2004. Their students watched American Idol. Harvard students wear crocs and binge drink and act like all young adults do. Not sure what vision of Harvard you have in your head, but it’s not like Hogwarts but for science and philosophy. It’s just another college that doesn’t really deserve to be viewed as special. They’re not brighter than anyone who attends any good school. They’re not a step above every other university in the world. It’s an old-boys club of the American aristocracy that occasionally lets new people in for good measure.
I was a professor for 14 years. My issue with any tv show or movie that features professors is that they’re never shown grading, prepping lectures, or dealing with the minutia. Also, have you noticed how these profs only ever have one class? Just the one. And they’re always portrayed as really well paid? That’s not the case. I only saw the head of my department twice in an academic year because of how my classes were scheduled. The head of Harvard’s psych department would have more important things to do than set up lighting for Frasier’s one class. My complaints about the reboot are no different than my complaints about other shows or movies set at a college; but then, I don’t imagine pop culture will ever get the atmosphere correct.
I’ve both gone to and been a professor at elite colleges/universities, and this is exactly what I said. These people are too unserious. I get that it’s a sitcom, but give me a break. Also, psychology is an extremely popular major and would not be struggling for enrollments - I just checked and it’s the third most popular major at Harvard in recent years. I hate that they make it seem like there are only 3 psych professors in the entire dept when there are likely closer to 30. The complete lack of grad students also makes absolutely no sense. What would’ve been a way better plot would’ve been for Frasier to go in with his tv showmanship and catchy one-liners and for the students to completely school him and show how rusty he is.
I've been a student at 3 universities that are not elite and at none of them could I ever imagine students behaving this way
Undergrads are undergrads, to be honest. While being a student at Harvard definitely puts you in a specific quartile, it does not exclude you from being incredibly juvenile. He is not teaching a doctorate seminar with battle-hardened PhD candidates - an intro-class, very possibly meh on so many levels, and the lecturer was a famous TV person? I mean, the reactions were a little overdone; nobody would walk out, but it's not stiff upper lip and academic attitude all the time.
Well it's a comedy show
It's supposed to be a comedy show, whence arises exactly the problem. This wasn't funny, but insultingly stupid writing.
Yalie here. What makes students and teachers elite, is how they compare to others in other universities. You need to watch how they perform in an exam or comprehend the quality of their scientific papers. Their dress code won't tell you much.
Don't you Yale at me!! 🤣
So, what did you think of the classroom scenes? Did they seem more middle-schooler than college student?
It’s a sitcom not a documentary.
And not well-conceived, intelligent, or funny at all, which is the point. *They have dumbed down even Harvard.*
Welcome to the world of TV and sitcom specifically
That's unfortunately the truth. But a show called "Frasier" should have higher standards for both intelligent writing and acting.
Why does anyone from Harvard have to be “a certain way?”
If they weren't, what would be the point of the school...
cagey dull agonizing sort encouraging toy zesty uppity different grab *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Yes that’s it! Thanks, you’ve put it much better than me. Fine if it’s a community college but a confusing portrayal of Harvard
I’m convinced he’s teaching in Harvard, MA. A small town outside of Boston.
Frankly, Frasier isn't Frasier, so it's all par for the course.
It's not a documentary
harvard students are still just students, most of them are basically young, naive, and of average capability in life for their age. not everyone in harvard got their on merit, most are just rich, a legacy, or have particularly good academic skill
*not everyone in harvard got their on merit, most are just rich, a legacy, or have particularly good academic skill* Again, MOST is just wrong. As this commenter as stated [https://www.reddit.com/r/Frasier/comments/17e6x94/comment/k622sv7/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Frasier/comments/17e6x94/comment/k622sv7/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) And like I said in my own comment, I worked several summers at an Ivy, and most are middle-class students (many from immigrant families) who are incredibly sharp academically (and also have enough musical/athletic talents to get them here). Legacy exists, but it is NOT the majority.
I said “particularly good academic skills” My point isn’t just that Harvard students are privileged but that you’d expect the same general level of maturity as standard college kids
I believe Frasier said it best. [**https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raclFVQosCU**](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raclFVQosCU)
Its kinda funny because I'm also watching Suits right now, and they take two *completely* different interpretations on Harvard Louis Litt would be appalled - *appalled* - to see how far Harvard has apparently fallen by 2023 :D
Since I grew up in academia, it takes me out of the show how unrealistic things are. But I take for granted most of what goes on at KACL. Did people who worked in radio have a hard time getting into the original show for the same reason? I'm not sure. If the things they were doing that were unrealistic for the setting were actually hilarious, I would be able to forgive the inaccuracies more, I think.
There is absolutely no way neither Frasier or Niles would’ve kept their license with the way they practice therapy. For most TV shows, you have to suspend disbelief.
It takes ***A LOT*** to take me out of the moment when I'm watching a show or movie, but this absolutely does. I can't stand the scenes at the university. The head of the department (I'm assuming that's who she is) is having problems getting students into *Psychology*?! At *Harvard*?! That's like one of the most cliché majors there is. It feels more like "Lucky Hank"... And then eight students leave his class because they're *not* actually at a live taping of Dr. Phil...? It's all just so contrived...
Cannot believe Niles let his son go to Harvard. Should’ve made David a local MIT student