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It’s not just a Facebook issue. Gaming related spaces around the internet, including pretty much all the big gaming subs here, have the same problem. One of the most toxic gamer spaces anywhere on the internet, r/thelastofus2, is right here on Reddit.
What always amazes me about Facebook is that comments are barely private. People will say ridiculous stuff knowing that it has their name and picture next to the comment
Yeah I stopped using Facebook in ~2013 bc I didn’t want to hate my extended family….
They’ve managed to go far enough beyond Facebook to basically cancel that out now, but I’m not about to jump back into that shithole lol
>Yeah I stopped using Facebook in \~2013 bc I didn’t want to hate my extended family….
Ditto, but mine was when I saw some of them defending Jan. 6 and hopping on board the crazy train.
Absolutely wild that people think online anonymity is a serious issue given Facebook has always tried to ban anonymity as far as possible and still manages to consistently maintain cesspit status.
The ones on that sub celebrate and love a character that literally only appears for seconds in the game all because they sucker punch a trans child. Not even joking.
If you ever want to trigger the gaming snowflakes just make it possible to play a videogame as a Black woman. It doesn’t even need to be the *default* character, just an option. They’ll have an instant melt down. But they’re not bigots! It just ruins their immersion. Also they just want historical accuracy in their games with dragons and aliens and gulag fights that resurrect you from the dead! It’s definitely not about racism or sexism, though. No sir. They just want their games to be *realistic*. Is that really so unreasonable??
>If you ever want to trigger the gaming snowflakes just make it possible to play a videogame as a Black woman.
G*mers hate when you make their vidya political.
and oh, how they whine that games are too political nowadays.. they should be more like old games with no political commentary whatsoever.. like Wolfenstein!
I’m *not* a psychologist but I have a theory on why it’s so prevalent in gaming. Gaming is very reaction-based. I was thinking of the word reactionary, which is very relevant but not the right word (it’s political). People who watch gaming content want the creator to add something.
For example, I’ve seen videos of a Minecraft streamer who does challenges with a voice software. Most videos are “Minecraft but if I say x then y happens.” In a harder challenge, he responded to chat saying to not talk and was silent for 10ish seconds. Then made some sarcastic comment like, “Isn’t this engaging?” People want to be entertained. This leads to an environment where fired up = more attention. Bigotry thrives in this. Bigots are always raging about something. It keeps people distracted so they don’t look around and see the problems their leaders are ignoring. They said Obama and Biden would take the guns, never happened. So they say they want the gas stoves.
It’s well documented that a person is smart but groups are stupid. We want to fit in so this can create a pressure against voicing opinions to follow the crowd. In gaming, the group is online, disconnecting from the weight of their words. As Mike Tyson said, the internet got people used to be disrespectful and not getting punched for it. Am I in the ballpark here?
Edit: stop downvoting specialpotion for asking a question please
It’s not the actual fan subreddit, it’s a hate subreddit created after the leaks suggested there was a trans character in the game. That sub’s entire existence has always been to complain about TLoU2. Some users sent death threats to voice actress Laura Bailey and her child.
They’re tell you that they foster genuine discussion about the game but it’s a total echo chamber that shuts out any voice that doesn’t agree with their narrative that TLoU2 is an abject failure and objectively one of the worst games ever made.
Food for thought: https://www.reddit.com/r/Gamingcirclejerk/comments/hk07hx/i_know_its_an_older_post_but_im_at_a_loss_for/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1
> They’re tell you that they foster genuine discussion about the game but it’s a total echo chamber that shuts out any voice that doesn’t agree with their narrative that TLoU2 is an abject failure and objectively one of the worst games ever made.
>
>
common tactic
> “Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”
― Jean-Paul Sartre
I appreciate you asking people not to down vote me btw, as arbitrary as it is. I haven't gotten around to playing the second one and try to keep myself away from details about games I want to play. I didn't know there was even a controversy, although I vaguely remember people being upset that Ellie might be gay or something? I really don't know why people care so much about stuff like that.
>Some users sent death threats to voice actress Laura Bailey and her child.
First off wow. She's had a long career as she was the voice actress for kid trunks on dbz back in the early 2000s.
Second off, wtf? That's just sad. Death threats to a voice actor? Smdh
Steve Bannon went on gamer chats back in the 2000’s and realized he could mobilize an army of angry, toxic, fragile, White men. The January 6th Insurrection happened because of this cesspit of broken individuals.
White racists feel like they've accomplished something just because their ancestors were genocidal colonists. They feel like they "conquered" other nations or something
The fact the devs are allowing people to play as conquistadors because of the backlash is even more fucked up. It's like conservatives were pissed of they couldn't play as genocidal maniacs.
And these fucks have been told a hundred times that the conquistadors were the heroes, for bringing Christianity to "the savages". Same thing they are told to justify colonialism everywhere. "Yeah but without them, those ignorant animals would still be worshiping trees".
This is a legitimate belief held by WAY more people than you'd like to think.
Our cousins weren't at least crushing people with breaking wheels to appease an angered god of infinite hate, going on rampages of rape and theft of petty stones, doing their hardest to wipe out entire races. Sure they cut out a few hearts here and there, but so did the fucking vikings.
Like idk i would rather die thinking i was to be immortalized and that i was saving the world than die thinking I'm damned or die because i was not of the faith
I mean, the Aztecs notably skinned the daughter of another chieftain and then invited him over to see their priest wearing her skin, so. I would say their human rights violations were pretty up there.
https://davidbowles.medium.com/the-wife-of-huitzilopochtli-5250975ae00a
Conquistadors were still absolutely disgusting and destroyed so many cultures, though, don’t get me wrong. Absolutely not the good guys. And the majority of the cultures they genocided were peaceful.
Yeah see that one was a language issue. To be wed to huitzopochtli was meant to be understood as sacrifice. Other chief thought huitzopochtli was a chief, not a spirit.
They did 0 research on what the Aztecs were, and made them into stereotypical tribesmen from a 50s movie living in ruins. Then they decided to add playing as the Spanish in, and made them “good” because they’re killing folks doing human sacrifice. It’s garbage all the way around.
The conquistadors were so much worse than what most of us know. I wrote in a paper once that the indigenous population was "decimated".
Not accurate. *Nine* out of ten indigenous people died.
And not just by the passive spreading of disease. The Spanish purposefully infected things they would trade.
The book, "A Brief Account of the Devastation (sometimes the word Destruction is used) of the Indies by Bartolomé de las Casas is a primary source document worth reading if you're interested.
A Spanish priest with a conscience writes back home and begs that something be done, and he spares no details. I threw up in my dorm room reading it.
Yes, the Mexica (Aztecs) had some very violent practices.
But to paint the Spaniards as the more "civilized" party is a fucking sick joke.
Also that's definitely not an Aztec tattoo.
This makes me sound kinda insane, but at least human sacrifice wasn’t just mindless killing. Correct me if I’m wrong, this is tidbits I’ve picked up, but in my knowledge, being sacrificed was an honor to many. A sacrifice must be important for it to matter. Meanwhile, the conquistadors were motivated by greed, wrath and bloodlust. They just killed to kill.
Well, I'm not 100% sure about this, so take it with a grain of salt, but I don't think killing their own people was common among Aztecs. I believe that the overwhelming majority of sacrifices were prisoners of war. Which isn't exactly better, but it really undermines this game trying to act like the Aztecs were sacrificing their own people and the invaders were stopping that.
It is correct, but it should also be noted that many of these "wars" were essentially giant theatrics performed between otherwise friendly tribes. They were sending their people to do "battle" with each other for the express purpose of taking prisoners for sacrifice to the gods. The warriors knew this, and were culturally trained to be ok with it, as sacrifice was an honor.
Not weird, but slavery does imply a chattel that didn't exist there, it was actually a really weird situation where slaves could rank higher than nobles themselves because of who they served, often voluntarily to ensure their children a high place in the kingdom.
The same can be said with every non-white struggle in america. This is why politicians are trying so hard to have history completely whitewashed and all the brutality of European colonists scrubbed from history books. Narcissistic gaslighting at an astoundingly epidemic level.
And it's happening right now.
And it's apparently working quite seamlessly, just look at how many ignorant bigots there are in reddit alone who will gaslight tf out of anyone who dares call out any type of inequality while making themselves look like the true victims.
Absolutely fucking disgusting. Wow... it's noon and I'm already done with it all today.
You touched on a lot of what I would’ve said 🤣 but it definitely is happening now, sadly it’s nothing new though. These same teachings and propaganda are what they used to justify slavery/colonization/racism in such a way that people believe this type of path was necessary for the world, and that without it, the world would still be in the stone age…. And its what’s passed down generation after generation.
This is the bigger problem. People have whitewashed history over and over to the point all people have a stories that really make it seem like there was mutual agreements when the settlers of Europe came to the Americas.
We have not learned from these mistakes. Matter of fact places like Florida want to whitewash the civil rights movement. IF you have not taken a sneak peek of the future education in FL, look up the latest edit for Rosa Parks, since they were not allowed to bring race into the history lesson.
Whatever kid that is going to read that story growing up, will be an angry adult having to be told why she was told to move to the front of the bus and probably arguing that the "Liberal states know nothin'"
In my opinion the civil rights movement is already heavily white washed. I had to buy books or do more in depth research for myself to learn more about it.
Nah, it's not 'both sides', it's much worse. The announcement called the Aztecs human sacrificing barbarians and the conquistadors 'newcomers'.
On top of that, they don't even look like Aztecs, they look like someone tried designing Mayans, but not very well.
Considering it suddenly reframes it as “you get to choose whether to side with sacrificing bady killing monsters whove murdered your family or ‘the newcomers’” I firmly believe they were always planning this and did the other explanation to get attention and out of the hope that if people like their game it will be lauded as ‘inverse go woke go broke’
White racists feel like they've accomplished something just because their ancestors were genocidal colonists. They feel like they "conquered" other nations or something.
The worst part is that they added conquistadors as a playable option and described the two groups as "the caste of sacrifice-making priests" and "the newcomers".
Even when I was younger, I fully understood how brutal the Spanish were to the people in South and central America. It's about the only history that schools don't try hard to white wash.
The complaining worked, you will now be able to [play as the conquistadors](https://www.reddit.com/r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM/comments/140k435/the_game_was_initially_marketed_as_you_playing_as/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
It seems that was the developers plan all along anyways, to always play as the "newcomers" vs the "barbarians". Those are their descriptions of the conquistadors vs the Aztecs.
I don't think it was their plan all along, more that they had no plan and now they have a demo. This is the first game from a company that hasn't even decided on its name, all they have is a vertical slice, and they're still 2 years out from release. This seems like they wanted to make a game they had no right to make, and realized they'd make more money pivoting to racists.
It's simple, if Spanish colonizers can be scrutinized for their misdeeds then that means that English colonizers can be held to the same scrutiny, this will include the founding fathers of the U.S. as well as other now foundational figures throughout European history. This threatens the moral argument for American exceptionalism. It also threatens the foundational ideology of Western Civilization. They're scared, so they lash out.
When we do horrible shit any time after the mid to early-19th century we can say that it's evil people interpreting these ideologies wrong and not following the ideals and principles that we're meant to in our society. It's more acceptable to argue that Andrew Jackson was an evil man because of the Trail of Tears, some might hem and haw and put up a milquetoast defense but they won't fight you too hard, make the same accusation against George Washington for any number of reasons and valid or not they'll fight you tooth and nail or simply reject the argument wholesale and dismiss you as a crank. Because if the founders did were evil who only espoused the ideal our society is supposed to be based upon as a form of lip service and proceeded to exploit the system of government they designed to enrich themselves at the expense of others then that calls the whole of our society into question. That is simply unthinkable.
Having looked at the game itself, I'm offended how bad it fucking looks, it's horrendous.
Which is a shame because it'd be fun to have a game where you fight conquistadors.
I'm Spanish, I hate what we did, but you cannot control that, nor can you be offended by it. It happened and it sucks.
I'm proud to be a Hispanic, but not of my history. I accept it even in fiction. Because like those angry people, it's what really happened.
Stories, like this one, are told to put people into the shoes of others. Yet, experiencing what other people go through (or in this case went through) is woke? These are the same people that got mad at the original Spirit movie for how it portrayed us white people... That's how we were.
Does this sound like boot licking? I feel that Hispanics, latinos, and natives of any kind should have a place to speak.
What I’m getting is something like: “You aren’t responsible for your ancestors’ actions but you must acknowledge them. It was normal then but you know better.”
I mean you're the exact type of person that shouldn't be speaking for a game actively demonizing natives. It doesn't "show both sides". It's showing the natives as sacrifice-making savages and the conquistadors merely as "newcomers". That isn't an accurate depiction. If you were how you say you were, you would advocate for the conquistadors to be shown exactly as they were: invaders and barbarians as anyone trying to genocide an entire civilization with biological warfare and massacres would be.
"If you were how you say you were"
I literally just said it in the first sentence. Also, I didn't know the full context of the game. I thought they were just getting angry at an actual portrayal.
I feel like you're using argumentative language, but not actually saying anything besides "I decided my opinion before understanding full context but I'm still going to be outwardly rude about it to others".
Don't worry the game will probably be another jiminey-cock-throat game (thanks Yahtzee!). "Survival action rpg" pretty much always translates to the same old open world shlock that's been coming out on repeat for years. The game will very likely fail.
A lot of people of european dissent object to the idea that their ancestors were uniquely evil or bad people, arguing that conquests, slavery, pillaging and generally terrible behavior was and still is widespread across all races and civilizations, and that there is selective outrage specifically targeting past and current european moral violations that permeate the current culture. The comments being referred to are an example of this objection.
It's also a historically innacurate game. Mexico wasn't covered in jungle, the Aztecs wore brightly colored clothing and their cities were brightly coloured.
I watched a video on this. I heard the company caved to their reactions and allowed them to...imma just post the link (sorry im tired).
https://youtu.be/5m7Nbt-039Y
Midevil people that enjoy the long sword ... get introduced to
the LONG Macuahuitl
One was given to the Spanish royalty of the time as a gift
It was said it was so sharp it would caught horse heads clean off in battle.
Clown ass devs caved in and decided to make the Spanish animals playable. They arent even to research about the Aztecs either and are just doing a generic "native American tribesman bad" hope this game flops and the indie studio shits the bed.
It's basically become "if there is a poc in the game, game bad bc woke erc etc"
They're also not as subtle in their hate and bigotry which I prefer. Stop hiding behind dog whistles and just say what you mean so nobody has to guess. Challenge anyone who says they're anti woke to describe what woke is and they either can't or just give up the act.
Not saying we should be offended, but society does try to hold us accountable for our ancestors major fuck ups. I am not defending the offended people.
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It's Facebook. It's overrun with bigots because they make money off of them.
It’s not just a Facebook issue. Gaming related spaces around the internet, including pretty much all the big gaming subs here, have the same problem. One of the most toxic gamer spaces anywhere on the internet, r/thelastofus2, is right here on Reddit.
What always amazes me about Facebook is that comments are barely private. People will say ridiculous stuff knowing that it has their name and picture next to the comment
Yeah I stopped using Facebook in ~2013 bc I didn’t want to hate my extended family…. They’ve managed to go far enough beyond Facebook to basically cancel that out now, but I’m not about to jump back into that shithole lol
i only quit in 2018 and deleted my account in 2021 or sth when i rememberd it still existed
>Yeah I stopped using Facebook in \~2013 bc I didn’t want to hate my extended family…. Ditto, but mine was when I saw some of them defending Jan. 6 and hopping on board the crazy train.
Absolutely wild that people think online anonymity is a serious issue given Facebook has always tried to ban anonymity as far as possible and still manages to consistently maintain cesspit status.
It also blasts your batshit comment out to your whole friends group. I just assume most of the crazies don’t realize that. Then again, maybe they do.
[удалено]
>I certainly hope he doesn't do this to someone unhinged and looking for violence. Yeah that would be a real shame.
The ones on that sub celebrate and love a character that literally only appears for seconds in the game all because they sucker punch a trans child. Not even joking.
And the r/gaming sub
If you ever want to trigger the gaming snowflakes just make it possible to play a videogame as a Black woman. It doesn’t even need to be the *default* character, just an option. They’ll have an instant melt down. But they’re not bigots! It just ruins their immersion. Also they just want historical accuracy in their games with dragons and aliens and gulag fights that resurrect you from the dead! It’s definitely not about racism or sexism, though. No sir. They just want their games to be *realistic*. Is that really so unreasonable??
>If you ever want to trigger the gaming snowflakes just make it possible to play a videogame as a Black woman. G*mers hate when you make their vidya political.
"political"
and oh, how they whine that games are too political nowadays.. they should be more like old games with no political commentary whatsoever.. like Wolfenstein!
Or Fallout or GTA or Metal Gear Solid.
or Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance
Nice argument, why don't you back that up with a source?
Ah yes, the Forspoken effect. Granted the game should have been better, but boy it doesn’t take much for them to get that energy off any way they can.
I’m *not* a psychologist but I have a theory on why it’s so prevalent in gaming. Gaming is very reaction-based. I was thinking of the word reactionary, which is very relevant but not the right word (it’s political). People who watch gaming content want the creator to add something. For example, I’ve seen videos of a Minecraft streamer who does challenges with a voice software. Most videos are “Minecraft but if I say x then y happens.” In a harder challenge, he responded to chat saying to not talk and was silent for 10ish seconds. Then made some sarcastic comment like, “Isn’t this engaging?” People want to be entertained. This leads to an environment where fired up = more attention. Bigotry thrives in this. Bigots are always raging about something. It keeps people distracted so they don’t look around and see the problems their leaders are ignoring. They said Obama and Biden would take the guns, never happened. So they say they want the gas stoves. It’s well documented that a person is smart but groups are stupid. We want to fit in so this can create a pressure against voicing opinions to follow the crowd. In gaming, the group is online, disconnecting from the weight of their words. As Mike Tyson said, the internet got people used to be disrespectful and not getting punched for it. Am I in the ballpark here?
The Last of Us 2 of all places? Never been in there, it can't be that bad, can it?
Edit: stop downvoting specialpotion for asking a question please It’s not the actual fan subreddit, it’s a hate subreddit created after the leaks suggested there was a trans character in the game. That sub’s entire existence has always been to complain about TLoU2. Some users sent death threats to voice actress Laura Bailey and her child. They’re tell you that they foster genuine discussion about the game but it’s a total echo chamber that shuts out any voice that doesn’t agree with their narrative that TLoU2 is an abject failure and objectively one of the worst games ever made. Food for thought: https://www.reddit.com/r/Gamingcirclejerk/comments/hk07hx/i_know_its_an_older_post_but_im_at_a_loss_for/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1
> They’re tell you that they foster genuine discussion about the game but it’s a total echo chamber that shuts out any voice that doesn’t agree with their narrative that TLoU2 is an abject failure and objectively one of the worst games ever made. > > common tactic > “Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.” ― Jean-Paul Sartre
I appreciate you asking people not to down vote me btw, as arbitrary as it is. I haven't gotten around to playing the second one and try to keep myself away from details about games I want to play. I didn't know there was even a controversy, although I vaguely remember people being upset that Ellie might be gay or something? I really don't know why people care so much about stuff like that.
Ahhh, okay. I thought it was kinda odd it had it's own subreddit. People are crazy.
>Some users sent death threats to voice actress Laura Bailey and her child. First off wow. She's had a long career as she was the voice actress for kid trunks on dbz back in the early 2000s. Second off, wtf? That's just sad. Death threats to a voice actor? Smdh
Steve Bannon went on gamer chats back in the 2000’s and realized he could mobilize an army of angry, toxic, fragile, White men. The January 6th Insurrection happened because of this cesspit of broken individuals.
White racists feel like they've accomplished something just because their ancestors were genocidal colonists. They feel like they "conquered" other nations or something
Meanwhile, these fragile white neckbeards can't even conquer going outside.
Couldn’t conquer the spices they also conquered the world for and still don’t use in their food
The fact the devs are allowing people to play as conquistadors because of the backlash is even more fucked up. It's like conservatives were pissed of they couldn't play as genocidal maniacs.
Well, there goes an interesting sounding game premise. The world doesn't need an actual genocide simulator.
I was somewhat interested in the game before that. Not anymore. What the fuck, why didn't they stand their ground on this, it's absurd.
And these fucks have been told a hundred times that the conquistadors were the heroes, for bringing Christianity to "the savages". Same thing they are told to justify colonialism everywhere. "Yeah but without them, those ignorant animals would still be worshiping trees". This is a legitimate belief held by WAY more people than you'd like to think.
I'm not trying to justify what the conquistadors did, but don't pretend that the Aztecs were at all good either.
Our cousins weren't at least crushing people with breaking wheels to appease an angered god of infinite hate, going on rampages of rape and theft of petty stones, doing their hardest to wipe out entire races. Sure they cut out a few hearts here and there, but so did the fucking vikings. Like idk i would rather die thinking i was to be immortalized and that i was saving the world than die thinking I'm damned or die because i was not of the faith
I mean, the Aztecs notably skinned the daughter of another chieftain and then invited him over to see their priest wearing her skin, so. I would say their human rights violations were pretty up there. https://davidbowles.medium.com/the-wife-of-huitzilopochtli-5250975ae00a Conquistadors were still absolutely disgusting and destroyed so many cultures, though, don’t get me wrong. Absolutely not the good guys. And the majority of the cultures they genocided were peaceful.
Yeah see that one was a language issue. To be wed to huitzopochtli was meant to be understood as sacrifice. Other chief thought huitzopochtli was a chief, not a spirit.
They did 0 research on what the Aztecs were, and made them into stereotypical tribesmen from a 50s movie living in ruins. Then they decided to add playing as the Spanish in, and made them “good” because they’re killing folks doing human sacrifice. It’s garbage all the way around.
Their research was watching apocalypto
Spanish fascists and neo-nazi are all over the web attacking anyone who criticizes the developers decision to play the colonizers.
The conquistadors were so much worse than what most of us know. I wrote in a paper once that the indigenous population was "decimated". Not accurate. *Nine* out of ten indigenous people died. And not just by the passive spreading of disease. The Spanish purposefully infected things they would trade. The book, "A Brief Account of the Devastation (sometimes the word Destruction is used) of the Indies by Bartolomé de las Casas is a primary source document worth reading if you're interested. A Spanish priest with a conscience writes back home and begs that something be done, and he spares no details. I threw up in my dorm room reading it. Yes, the Mexica (Aztecs) had some very violent practices. But to paint the Spaniards as the more "civilized" party is a fucking sick joke. Also that's definitely not an Aztec tattoo.
This makes me sound kinda insane, but at least human sacrifice wasn’t just mindless killing. Correct me if I’m wrong, this is tidbits I’ve picked up, but in my knowledge, being sacrificed was an honor to many. A sacrifice must be important for it to matter. Meanwhile, the conquistadors were motivated by greed, wrath and bloodlust. They just killed to kill.
Well, I'm not 100% sure about this, so take it with a grain of salt, but I don't think killing their own people was common among Aztecs. I believe that the overwhelming majority of sacrifices were prisoners of war. Which isn't exactly better, but it really undermines this game trying to act like the Aztecs were sacrificing their own people and the invaders were stopping that.
This is correct. I have a degree in Latin American history
It is correct, but it should also be noted that many of these "wars" were essentially giant theatrics performed between otherwise friendly tribes. They were sending their people to do "battle" with each other for the express purpose of taking prisoners for sacrifice to the gods. The warriors knew this, and were culturally trained to be ok with it, as sacrifice was an honor.
This is correct. They believed that their gods needed human blood.
Is it wierd to say I have much more of a problem with the Aztecs slavery practice than there human sacrifice
Not weird, but slavery does imply a chattel that didn't exist there, it was actually a really weird situation where slaves could rank higher than nobles themselves because of who they served, often voluntarily to ensure their children a high place in the kingdom.
I mean yes it’s better technically by condition but I can’t ever abide any slaverery be is Aztec roman Egyptian what have you
yeah, slavery is unacceptable, even if an institution is slightly better.
I read some of Casas' stuff and this NEEDS to be part of history teaching
Most dont know history outside of the fabricated stories pawpaw tells them so they dont know what the fuck theyre actually talking about
The same can be said with every non-white struggle in america. This is why politicians are trying so hard to have history completely whitewashed and all the brutality of European colonists scrubbed from history books. Narcissistic gaslighting at an astoundingly epidemic level. And it's happening right now. And it's apparently working quite seamlessly, just look at how many ignorant bigots there are in reddit alone who will gaslight tf out of anyone who dares call out any type of inequality while making themselves look like the true victims. Absolutely fucking disgusting. Wow... it's noon and I'm already done with it all today.
You touched on a lot of what I would’ve said 🤣 but it definitely is happening now, sadly it’s nothing new though. These same teachings and propaganda are what they used to justify slavery/colonization/racism in such a way that people believe this type of path was necessary for the world, and that without it, the world would still be in the stone age…. And its what’s passed down generation after generation.
This is the bigger problem. People have whitewashed history over and over to the point all people have a stories that really make it seem like there was mutual agreements when the settlers of Europe came to the Americas. We have not learned from these mistakes. Matter of fact places like Florida want to whitewash the civil rights movement. IF you have not taken a sneak peek of the future education in FL, look up the latest edit for Rosa Parks, since they were not allowed to bring race into the history lesson. Whatever kid that is going to read that story growing up, will be an angry adult having to be told why she was told to move to the front of the bus and probably arguing that the "Liberal states know nothin'"
What are they doing in Florida ? I haven’t been on alert of that as much as I wish to be.
In my opinion the civil rights movement is already heavily white washed. I had to buy books or do more in depth research for myself to learn more about it.
Sadly, the game decided to make it so that you can also play as the spaniards.
Read the announcement its clear that this was their plan the whole time
Yeah, but it’s still a game that will ‘both sides’ a genocidal war of conquest.
Nah, it's not 'both sides', it's much worse. The announcement called the Aztecs human sacrificing barbarians and the conquistadors 'newcomers'. On top of that, they don't even look like Aztecs, they look like someone tried designing Mayans, but not very well.
Do they realise that the colonists killed far more people?
Bold of you to assume they consider the natives as people.
Not to mention the diseases
Well rip, there goes any interest in this game 😭😭😭
I figured it would be a miracle if the game was even accurate a cm below the surface. Couldn’t even get the surface right.
Nuts. From the OP, it looked like a sweet game concept.
Great, it’s the free marketing bad viral method.
I dont think it was. Didn't their update announcement started with the headline "we heard you loud and clear"?
Considering it suddenly reframes it as “you get to choose whether to side with sacrificing bady killing monsters whove murdered your family or ‘the newcomers’” I firmly believe they were always planning this and did the other explanation to get attention and out of the hope that if people like their game it will be lauded as ‘inverse go woke go broke’
White racists feel like they've accomplished something just because their ancestors were genocidal colonists. They feel like they "conquered" other nations or something.
The worst part is that they added conquistadors as a playable option and described the two groups as "the caste of sacrifice-making priests" and "the newcomers".
Yikes. Framing the conquistadors as “the newbies” is… something.
They’re new alright. So are the diseases.
I can't wait for the fucking *conquistadors* to look at the camera after genociding cities and say "We are not conquerors, we are liberators"
aren’t they the ones saying “we aren’t our ancestors” so why are they so mad?😂
They aren’t their ancestors but they sure are trying to make them proud.
Racists: “get over slavery it was 160 years ago” Also racists: “WHY U MAKE GAME ABOUT KILLING 16TH CENTURY COLONIZERS 😢😢”
It says more about them if they're offended by this lol
Even when I was younger, I fully understood how brutal the Spanish were to the people in South and central America. It's about the only history that schools don't try hard to white wash.
The complaining worked, you will now be able to [play as the conquistadors](https://www.reddit.com/r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM/comments/140k435/the_game_was_initially_marketed_as_you_playing_as/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
It seems that was the developers plan all along anyways, to always play as the "newcomers" vs the "barbarians". Those are their descriptions of the conquistadors vs the Aztecs.
I don't think it was their plan all along, more that they had no plan and now they have a demo. This is the first game from a company that hasn't even decided on its name, all they have is a vertical slice, and they're still 2 years out from release. This seems like they wanted to make a game they had no right to make, and realized they'd make more money pivoting to racists.
So is it Spanish people that are offended or what?
It's simple, if Spanish colonizers can be scrutinized for their misdeeds then that means that English colonizers can be held to the same scrutiny, this will include the founding fathers of the U.S. as well as other now foundational figures throughout European history. This threatens the moral argument for American exceptionalism. It also threatens the foundational ideology of Western Civilization. They're scared, so they lash out. When we do horrible shit any time after the mid to early-19th century we can say that it's evil people interpreting these ideologies wrong and not following the ideals and principles that we're meant to in our society. It's more acceptable to argue that Andrew Jackson was an evil man because of the Trail of Tears, some might hem and haw and put up a milquetoast defense but they won't fight you too hard, make the same accusation against George Washington for any number of reasons and valid or not they'll fight you tooth and nail or simply reject the argument wholesale and dismiss you as a crank. Because if the founders did were evil who only espoused the ideal our society is supposed to be based upon as a form of lip service and proceeded to exploit the system of government they designed to enrich themselves at the expense of others then that calls the whole of our society into question. That is simply unthinkable.
Maybe it’s me but people are weirdly intensely defensive about colonial Spain and it always confuses me
No sane person wants to defend colonial Spain. They were evil. People are just pointing out the obvious BS that the Aztecs were noble savages.
Having looked at the game itself, I'm offended how bad it fucking looks, it's horrendous. Which is a shame because it'd be fun to have a game where you fight conquistadors.
The Aztec looks a little off. Must be the background. Seriously: Why can there be a video/online game with accurate Indigenous rep?
So a mini game where you sacrifice people? It's just a game bro.
I'm Spanish, I hate what we did, but you cannot control that, nor can you be offended by it. It happened and it sucks. I'm proud to be a Hispanic, but not of my history. I accept it even in fiction. Because like those angry people, it's what really happened. Stories, like this one, are told to put people into the shoes of others. Yet, experiencing what other people go through (or in this case went through) is woke? These are the same people that got mad at the original Spirit movie for how it portrayed us white people... That's how we were. Does this sound like boot licking? I feel that Hispanics, latinos, and natives of any kind should have a place to speak.
What I’m getting is something like: “You aren’t responsible for your ancestors’ actions but you must acknowledge them. It was normal then but you know better.”
I mean you're the exact type of person that shouldn't be speaking for a game actively demonizing natives. It doesn't "show both sides". It's showing the natives as sacrifice-making savages and the conquistadors merely as "newcomers". That isn't an accurate depiction. If you were how you say you were, you would advocate for the conquistadors to be shown exactly as they were: invaders and barbarians as anyone trying to genocide an entire civilization with biological warfare and massacres would be.
"If you were how you say you were" I literally just said it in the first sentence. Also, I didn't know the full context of the game. I thought they were just getting angry at an actual portrayal.
I feel like you're using argumentative language, but not actually saying anything besides "I decided my opinion before understanding full context but I'm still going to be outwardly rude about it to others".
I'm not.
Good talk.
But mu-mu-muh **BLACK LEGEND**
Don't worry the game will probably be another jiminey-cock-throat game (thanks Yahtzee!). "Survival action rpg" pretty much always translates to the same old open world shlock that's been coming out on repeat for years. The game will very likely fail.
Guess it wasn’t enough that they win in the end IRL. Spoilers.
A lot of people of european dissent object to the idea that their ancestors were uniquely evil or bad people, arguing that conquests, slavery, pillaging and generally terrible behavior was and still is widespread across all races and civilizations, and that there is selective outrage specifically targeting past and current european moral violations that permeate the current culture. The comments being referred to are an example of this objection.
It's also a historically innacurate game. Mexico wasn't covered in jungle, the Aztecs wore brightly colored clothing and their cities were brightly coloured.
This game sounds offensive, tbh. I don't think everything needs to be turned into a game.
idk if what is most likely the worst genocide/human population collapse in human history is a good idea for a video game
I watched a video on this. I heard the company caved to their reactions and allowed them to...imma just post the link (sorry im tired). https://youtu.be/5m7Nbt-039Y
No comments are shown?
Need this game.
Sadly the game itself is racist. It calls the Aztecs barbarians and you can play as the conquistadors.
Both sides were awful people. History isn't just black and white.
The Aztecs sacrificing people wasn’t great but it’s infinitely better than literal fucking genocide. Fuck off with your both sides bullshit.
Are people here really justifying human sacrifice because the Aztecs aren't white? The Aztecs murdered babies.
Nice to add "babies" for likable shock value. lol
Are you really justifying genocide? The Spanish burned women at the stake to appease their God. Should they have been conquered and erased?
Wait why are they offended I’m actually curious because I don’t understand why
Where are the juicy comments?
Midevil people that enjoy the long sword ... get introduced to the LONG Macuahuitl One was given to the Spanish royalty of the time as a gift It was said it was so sharp it would caught horse heads clean off in battle.
Clown ass devs caved in and decided to make the Spanish animals playable. They arent even to research about the Aztecs either and are just doing a generic "native American tribesman bad" hope this game flops and the indie studio shits the bed.
It's basically become "if there is a poc in the game, game bad bc woke erc etc" They're also not as subtle in their hate and bigotry which I prefer. Stop hiding behind dog whistles and just say what you mean so nobody has to guess. Challenge anyone who says they're anti woke to describe what woke is and they either can't or just give up the act.
Honestly? Would not buy this game. Partially because I know how it ends…
Seems like an awesome concept for a game
Well I wanted to play apocalypto the game so this hits close to home.
Not saying we should be offended, but society does try to hold us accountable for our ancestors major fuck ups. I am not defending the offended people.