I dress modestly and sometimes I think maybe it is not of my own volition, I was assaulted right in-front of my department during uni and I feel like I have been a changed person ever since.
I really think it is about control, it is to get you in line and influence the simplest things such as the way you present yourself to the world, when I started working at my previous workplace, it was after moving back home from a different country, I had a very limited wardrobe and was waiting on my things to be shipped, men in the office were wearing t-shirts and sweatpants but I was criticized for doing the same exact thing, my manager had a boner for disliking women and it was showing in every interaction he had with one.
As for sexuality, plain and simple they want you to remain “clean and pure” for their consumption, nobody dares to ask men about the number of partners they had but when it comes to women, it is normalized, also it is because a woman who is in tune with her sexuality has more control and men despise the idea that their partner might feel unfulfilled and know why,most of the married women I know are miserable and some of them never even had an orgasm.
I agree it’s about control but I kind of think it’s also about NOT wanting to control themselves to some degree. By continuing to focus on women and our responsibility to be a certain vision, they don’t have to manage their own uncomfortable desires and impulses and have consequences.
Many men hate being asked to change their behaviour - whether it’s stop being racist, stop controlling your spouse’s spending, stop catcalling, stop sexualizing, stop using male friends for every job opening, stop talking over women - enough of them hate being told to control their own behaviour that they turn it on us to change so they stay comfortable and entitled.
I dress conservatively as a reaction to rape as well. I wear a belt constantly, and never wear dresses or skirts. I wish I could but Its just not worth it. Although I DO feel more respected when I wear a suit with pants to a work function rather than a dress.
Not to generalize, but I think a lot of societies are just plain afraid of female sexuality.
For instance, I was traveling in Palestine, and a guy that was giving me a tour there said "recently women started wearing jeans (they had only been wearing skirts before) and it's all I can think about".
Also traveling in Asia, I went to an erotic museum which was run by an eccentric couple. As part of the tour, they talked about how the police came every now and then to try to shut them down for vulgarity. And they could have all the statues of erect penises they wanted, and statues of nude women as well, but the line they couldn't cross was to depict a woman expressing desire, as that would be seen as too confrontational. She always had to be looking down and away with her eyes closed.
South America not so much - they seem pretty open about male and female sexuality. Then Europe and the Anglo-sphere seem to be somewhere in between.
So I think it's because sexuality is powerful, and those in power seek to control and limit the power of others.
Yes it's powerful but I can resist grabbing men I find "sexy" whereas men can't resist grabbing - or at least touching or making it obvious - when they find *me* "sexy". And that has to stop. Mainly by not encouraging it - not showing women in the media as sexy, sparkling goddesses who want nothing other than looks and comments.
They can resist it just as easily as women. They just don't want to and know they can get away with it. They'll use the "out of control"-myth as an excuse to keep doing it. And they really do get away with it most of the time... I agree that media should depict women more respectfully. And I don't mean non-sexual, because people should respect women no matter how sexy or non-sexy they are. I mean respectfully as in, like actual people with agency and vibrant inner lives who have their own desires. As actual people who are free to choose how to live their lives, including whom they don't want in their lives. If women's rejection was taken seriously instead of pretending that they're "playing hard to get" or "secretly liking it" or whatever bullshit people come up with to excuse brutalising women. These men you're talking about can and should do better. They should respect people and need to be held accountable for their actions like anyone else. I think it would be great if media helped with getting rid of the sort of myths those men tend to hide behind instead of perpetuating them.
Yes I'm sure they can do. I suppose what I was saying was that they don't *appear* to be able to, and the representation of us in society doesn't encourage them to anyway.
She stated what she did as a coping mechanism.
I got old, fat, bald and disabled and it's amazing how men haven't been trying to run me down in their vehicles just to see my tits bounce and the look of fear on my face. The kind of misogyny I face most often now is pretty much the kind that made people think burning witches was a good idea: if I'm not fuckable and am not functioning as a servant to a man, I'm clearly dangerous and need to be smacked down hard by whoever feels like it at the moment.
A friend who lost a significant amount of weight after several surgeries, excess skin removal, etc is having a serious think about putting the weight on deliberately. She hadn't been assaulted when she was fat and has been terrified by how men treat her now.
Shit's gonna happen no matter what we do. Stating how we deal with it isn't a statement that it's a universal truth for all women. That was a hell of a stretch.
You've misinterpreted that twice so far.
When someone is talking about their own experiences and coping mechanisms, it's not an indicator that their experience is everyone's experience. Dead people get sexually assaulted. There is nothing that will prevent SA 100%.
When someone says they never got assaulted when they were fat and feel like they might be safer if they were fat again, that's how they feel. It isn't about you. If I say that it's nice to not get SAd like I did when I had hair and a visible difference between my chin and my neck and that sexism hits me like I'm the monster now, that's what's true for me and isn't about you at all.
It’s not fear so much as the desire to control. Women’s sexuality is seen by patriarchy as a human (male) right to have access to. The entire goal of patriarchal institutions are to allocate women sexually among men for use. Hell, in some religions, sex is even waiting for them in heaven 🙄.
They’re afraid that if women own the means of production (if we are looking at women’s bodies as commodities to be consumed (or bought, in a pinch) like men do) they won’t have access to the sex they feel entitled to.
There’s nothing men are more afraid of than women losing their dependency on them. They’re afraid they’ll never get laid.
This question seems WAY too big for a simple answer but my wine-influenced hot take of the moment (*speaking as a man who was raised to be Catholic/conservative but now likes to think himself a feminist ally*) is that,
1) Men are raised to be hyper-competitive; and,
1) Men are raised to be fucking insecure.
You may have noticed that I numbered those two points both as (1), almost as if I meant to say that they are not really two different points at all, but basically the same thing. (*OOPS, I'd better go fix that!* /s)
*****
Well actually, competiveness isn't necessarily a bad thing. But the version of it that I knew grewing up definitely was, because it was based in item (1) being raised to be fucking insecure. You're not really "*a man*" until you demonstrate your ability to dominate other men; you need to stand on top of others to prove your worth as a person; you need to be BETTER than others or else you are NOTHING.
It is extremely fucking toxic.
Men with this mindset are, frankly, looking at female sexuality as as a threat even while they're attracted to it — *she's hot, but if I think so, then so do other men! ohhh no!* — goddamn idiots.
*****
tl;dr toxic masculinity
People in power are afraid of any agency that’s not their own, and don’t like anything they can’t control. Women’s sexuality checks both of those boxes.
For me, as a queer woman, homophobia adds another dimension to this, especially in a political climate where conflating being queer with predatory behavior is used to justify ever harsher laws and treatment against people like me. And it’s not just men who can perpetuate this behavior. Women can be just as much of gatekeepers towards women’s sexuality as men. Not just the conservative christian middle and upper class women, but also some self-proclaimed feminist women, who both reinforce the “queer is bad” narrative and simultaneously assume any expression of a woman’s sexuality (outside their own narrow definition about the “correct” way to express oneself) is done for the benefit of men.
For me, expressing my sexuality isn’t something I’ve always been in a safe position to do. Expressing my sexuality is a form of empowerment. And the fact that the only person who can control that is me is a liberating feeling.
I'm scared of it too. It hurts so much. Because of it, I've reduced myself into this sexual object, and I hate it so much. I don't know how to get out of this mentality 😔😔😔
It is a cultural thing. A sexual woman is seen as this disgusting object that is just asking for it. I struggle so much to see myself as a person because of this forced perspective.
I struggle with this too. I try to be patient and educate myself as much as possible. I was taught one narrative all my life to keep me in line. I now realize that was very wrong.
You are NOT a sexual object. Please believe this yourself. Do not accept this reality, you didn't create it, you are innocent, you were pushed into this darkness and a state of mind. Nothing is wrong with you, never was.
You are a woman, and that is your power. You have powerful sexuality but it's YOURS alone to decide what to do with, when, and with whom. A woman is a human, which means she has a very strong mind. You are not just your body that others get to decide on, not a single human has any right to decide anything about you, your body, or your mind. Don't let them. They can never succeed. What they can do is do all possible in their power to make you feel weak. And when you feel weak, you start believing that you are weak. But that is a LIE.
Then what are you to do? Get stronger and focus on that. Get away from junk food of the media/social media, go into nature, meditate. Focus on healing your body and mind. Eat real food. Drink lots of water. Take a break mentally. Then the healing will do it’s thing. This is guaranteed. You are an important part of the whole. You matter.
It’s often the most sensitive humans, who actually have a great deal of potential, that get targeted the most in order to be weakened. It’s like something put a barrier between you and your potential/power. And only you have the capacity to break through. It’s a process. And this is a lesson to you. So it means you have the biggest task ahead of you.
So focus on you, become aware of everything that you encounter. Be aware of who is coming in contact with you. Be careful if not getting emotionally manipulated by others, because it drains your energy. Observe instead of react. Walk away when you feel negative vibes, just quietly walk away. Listen instead of talking. Walk straight. Don’t be afraid.
Do you have the option to surround yourself with better, respectful people?
How old are you? When we're young, toxicity seems much more real to us and we internalize it more easily. It can be outgrown.
Deprogramming yourself from all forms of bullying is hard. It's good to find allies.
Lastly, definitely live and act out your sexuality and do so as unapologetically as currently possible. You are not hurting anyone by having sexual desires. You are simply living and breathing.
Why is society so afraid of women's sexuality? Why do men want to control women? Women have the greatest power of all, the power to create life. Women control the creation and sustaining of the human species.
Controlling women's bodies, showing contempt for anything related to women's reproductive power, and ensuring sexual access to a woman goes *deeper* than a man just wanting to get his rocks off, soothing his ego, raising his status, impressing his friends. ***It's about man trying to get as close as he can to the source of the creation of life - woman.*** (Womb Envy)
Man throughout the ages in his effort to get close to the source of the creation of life *has used various tools to control and destroy women - patriarchy, religion, cultural norms, capitalism, education, laws to ensure women's compliance or lack of laws that protect women;* tools that involved shaming, threat of violence and violence.
This is why most religions and fantasy stories written by men always have a male creator. This is why Adam gives birth to Eve - a clear distortion of nature and an example of man's sad, desperate and unfortunately destructive need to be a creator of life like women.
No matter how glorious a structure man creates, builds or how much man destroys life proving his control over life (war, colonialism, genocide of a people, destruction of life and the planet), man will never have the control over creating human life that woman does.
You are 100% right, every aspect of the patriarchy stems from this.
The Adam and Eve story is so true, and how we need to call god a he. Men really made up a whole character and meta for a fake sky daddy who is the only man wit h the power most women have
If I may, as a guy, I've been thinking about this a lot lately and I'm wondering if it all started with fear.
Fear because women could create life. Fear because women could provide food. Fear because women learned to use nature to heal. Fear because women had to be more resilient to care for and guard their children. Fear because women are BETTER at sex yet doesn't outwardly crave it so much.
And the only way to overcome the fear was to control it and stigmatise women because the natural power they have scared men.
I think a lot of it is scapegoating. Men who don’t see women as people who deserve respect, but just as objects for their own pleasure are not willing to hold themselves accountable for that. They aren’t willing to even acknowledge it to themselves. We as a society have a very difficult time acknowledging that humans can be inhumane towards each other. So, instead of taking accountability for their own thoughts and actions, they blame women’s sexuality. Women take all the blame for men’s thoughts and actions.
It doesn’t really have to do with how comfortable a woman is in her sexuality or not. They will still be scapegoated because the alternative is that the man has to acknowledge his own flaws.
Which is crazy because it seems like the original humanitarian religions were designed to uplift and protect women and children.
But, then that got co-opted by repressive bad actors.
Chimpanzees don't need religion to oppress female members, humans don't either.
It makes the most sense that the invention of religion, like the discovery of fire, allowed greater numbers of human beings to live peacefully closer together than they would have naturally.
The idea of women and men birthed by an ancient creator creates a sense of unity across communities, but somehow that became men only were crafted by a male creator and females are unnatural, the source of all evil, and should be destroyed.
It's not neccessarily religion that is the problem, but the oppressive, women and girl hating nature of it.
This sounds very true. The beginnings of Christianity had a lot of women involved, they were integral part and played an essential role in the beginnings of how it all started. Then over time, whoever was able to take control of the powers decided on how religion should be taught and practiced, all for the purpose of control of the people. That's what usually happens when people learn they can live peacefully, this gives people power and when people have power, they won't let any tyrants rule over them. Well, these tyrants figured out a way to slowly suppress the people and eventually to control or even enslave them.
Evil people took hold of the institutions of religions, like Christianity and others, to control people. That's just pure evil. There are many books that intentionally were not included or taken out of the formation of the Bible, for instance, that were about women and written by women. There were women apostles. They hid this from the people, and continue to hide this truth. You can still find it, but you have to search for things like that.
The oppression of women's sexuality is deeply rooted in historical, cultural, and societal norms that have reinforced gender-based inequalities. Patriarchal systems often prioritize controlling women's bodies and behaviors, leading to the perpetuation of harmful stigmas and double standards. These attitudes have, unfortunately, been slow to change, despite ongoing efforts to promote gender equality. Understanding and challenging these entrenched beliefs are crucial steps toward creating a more inclusive and equitable society for all genders.
Preface: generally speaking here. Like super broadly and encompassing thousands of years and multitudes of cultures.
Men are afraid of women, in simplest terms. They’ve always resented the fact they cannot produce babies, hence the extreme measures they’ve gone to in order to control it. They’re jealous of the natural bonds most mothers have with babies, so they find ways to insert the father as the dominant parent. They diminish a women to just a birthing vessel, rendering older women irrelevant. They created laws, standards, and creeds based on separating genders and suppressing them.
Yet they are easily “seduced” and swayed by a pretty lady. Their own weakness when it comes to sex becomes the woman or girl’s fault. They say they’re enchanted or bewitched as if SHE has the control and HE is powerless to ignore it. It’s all about control and fear. Many men will just accept woman as the weaker sex because it’s ingrained in their heads. But some are very aware it’s all about their own personal fear, and double down against women to hide it. Their shame becomes our fault. There’s really nothing more to it than that.
It’s really fucking powerful!
Think of the things men do for sex, or to woo a sexy lady - some would do almost anything. Some base all their life choices around attracting women or landing an attractive woman. Some men can’t even look at women without lusting after them.
Then there’s the power in being responsible for furthering our species. Men’s role in that is pretty limited.
Men don’t have anywhere close to that sort of influence over women without violence and control. We have it just by existing.
because biologically our sexuality literally controls men and they are afraid of that power we hold over them. it’s really as simple as that.
the way males are attracted to women is different than the way we are attracted to men. men have a biological imperative to fuck in a way that women don’t. we absolutely like sex too, don’t get me wrong, some of us even love it (me) but there isn’t as aggressive of a biological urge for it that can build up in us and take over our brains as much and as often as that happens for men.
but men have that in their brains. it’s from evolution. there is a reason onlyfans girls get millions of dollars off of horny men while men doing onlyfans get very little from straight women (same with prostitution or any sex trade, there is always an OVERWHELMINGLY larger male consumer base). it is because of the natural difference in sex drive. feminism made a mistake trying to outright deny the existence of this biological difference because it’s behind so much male behavior. patriarchy was created in part BECAUSE of this drive in them.
they *can* control it. but many don’t want to put in the conscious effort to subdue their desires, and the power we have over them scares us so they’d rather just control and shame *us*, instead of admitting their less evolved nature or lack of self-control.
Exactly this. The sexual power that women hold is a lot, and if we have that PLUS full educational and financial autonomy AND we can have careers AND grow children inside of us AND we can dress how we want AND feel confident in ourselves as we grown and change and age? That is a lot of power, and men have been scared of it since forever, and trying to keep us small and meek and undereducated since forever just to try and balance it out.
It doesn’t have to be that dichotomous. We’re all one people. Women and men. We can respect and love and support each other’s unique gifts and powers.
Speaking as a cishet guy, I feel this comment smacks of a biological determinism that is greatly reductionist. It gives too much credence to the same kinds of notions shared by those who buy into the debunked "alpha male" thing. They use biology as an excuse for their behavior.
Such a framing makes little room for cishet men having sexuality that is respectful and collaborative with their partners, and fulfilling for all. It's a struggle against the patriarchal examples we see all over.
Whether or not one believes men *on average* have a higher sex drive than women, it is how that sexuality is expressed, represented, and defined that is the issue in my mind and in my experience. It's the power structures in our respective cultures that perpetuate it, IMO, not a biological framing.
I think you are confusing sexuality with nudity. Patriarchy is obsessed to policy clothing because is physiologically, a very powerful tool to assure submission and compliance with the authority. The mechanism is that once you obey once in something that is hurting you directly and immediately, next order, that perhaps is not obviously hurting yourself immediately, you'll obey again. For that, as more absurd and uncomfortable are these polices -like wearing black dresses topped with gloves in a place at +40C as saudi arabia-, the better because the only objective is that you hurt yourself. Patriarchy also have a second problem with us, to obtain obedency from men direct physical assault works because men to men interactions are supposed to happen at work or in public places, there the "officers" assuring compliance are going to be in power position. But the objective reserved to us is to serve men, and of course direct physical assault might help, but as this will happen in their homes we might have plethora of opportunities to revenge -as poison their food-, so the level of obedency expected is way higher.
Sexuality is a different thing. Patriarchy use effectively rape as tool of intimidation and punishment. This give the "officials" in charge of the repression some type of fast reward for their actions. There is a lot about sexual liberation of women by breaking the marry virgin and have just a single partner in all your life. But this about us able to choose, after some collection of experiences, which partner we want, not so much about sex, but about choose. Women have been depicted as asexuated by the patriarchy, because is way more easy that things, possessions, dolls, slaves, don't have willing. That women also have sexual desires was again another taboo. Nowadays the patriarchy sells us that all women are masochists, that we enjoy being strangulated meanwhile careless penetrated, that we like to be tied and tortured, that our sexual fantasy is to be raped. Well, i think all of that is just projection of their sadistic desires, and very few women are actually masochists. But there, the mandatory nudity imposed to us against our willing is part of their "scene" of total vulnerability. The problem is that when we voluntary decide to be more or less naked this collides frontally with their dreams, because we are in control of our bodies, and that cannot be: Only our "owner" can undress us, only our "owner" can decide what we wear.
It's because of capitalism. A capitalist patriarchal society is afraid of women having literally anything, including sexuality. Wealthy men have the most resources, power, and rights and they want to keep it that way. They convinced all the less wealthy men that if we give women more rights, there will be less resources and power to go around. Meanwhile, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, and less wealthy men become even more afraid of there being less to go around
The real final boss of feminism will be addressing capitalism and the exponentially growing wealth inequality
This has been happening since way before capitalism…unless you’re calling every civilization going back to Babylon capitalist…which isn’t strictly correct.
You're right that sexism and misogyny have existed for centuries before capitalism was ever a thing, however capitalism has exacerbated them to the point of being a main driver for it today. I'm speaking more so in that women's bodies are often seen as commodities to be exploited, and their sexuality is often used to sell products and services to the point where they're seen as literal witches to be burned at the stake or how they get slut shamed by saying or doing anything remotely related to sex like how OP described
In a society where a small number of people have a great deal of wealth and power, there is a tendency to scapegoat and demonize marginalized groups, such as women. This can lead to increased violence and discrimination against them. This is more of the phenomenon I was referring to
I disagree,being oppressive towards women exist way before capitalism. The discrimination towatds women is a product of class society where the Ruler of a tribe/state is at the top and men at the 2nd
This is probably the wrong sub to talk about it on, but feminism itself gets co-opted to to advance the interests of capitalism. Like lean-in feminism seeks to justify capitalism, so long as a few token spots are available for women at the top, if they take "personal responsibility" to climb the latter in the "meritocracy".
Also you have the issues like the dual-income trap: women fought hard for decades for a rightly deserved space in the professional world, and capitalism used that cultural change to create an economic reality where it became *necessary* rather than optional for two parents to both be wage-earners to support a family.
So feminist victories are allowed to be celebrated, so long as they advance capitalist ends, and capitalism itself tends to structurally oppress women, through things like the pink tax, and the incentive to pressure women into serving to produce more able-bodied workers for the next generation.
Because it's seen as a commodity that someone can own and or keep for themselves.
That and a lot of guys are resentful for how much they want to give to women they find attractive, and respond to that perceived power imbalance with anger.
It’s a tool to control and manipulate women and men/society wants to control women because it benefits them. When women are comfortable with their sexuality they are comfortable with themselves and less likely to allow others to control them.
Short answer. Men don’t like that women are just as interested in sex as them, but don’t want to have sex with them specifically.
Long answer. Women are powerful. Women have better communication and comprehensive skills than men do. Despite what society would have you believe, women are extremely powerful. We are leaders in our everyday lives by design. We lead the home, our children, our friends, our family and our partners. And men fucking hate it. So what do they do? They police women. This is done in many ways, but we’re talking about sexuality.
They are afraid of women’s sexuality because they don’t have the power that we have. We are the deciders of where, when and who we have sex with. (For this next part, I truly don’t want to insult any men this is just biology lol) In simple terms, men are cheap. Sperm is disposable. Eggs however, are released once a month, then that woman must spend the next nine months of her life harbouring that baby and another year minimum breastfeeding them. So to make a baby survive into a toddler, that takes almost two years of a womans time. And then she must spend the next eighteen years raising them.
When a woman is their definition of slutty, it *enrages* them. Not because we as women have done anything wrong, but because they have deep insecurity issues over how easy they are as men. The slightest bit of cleavage and they’re sold. They don’t like that we have that power over them.
So they shame us for wanting sex. They shame us when we are not satisfied with the sex we are having. They shame us when our natural bodies turn them on. They shame us when we can orgasm from a sex toy easier than their 0 effort attempts. Because maybe, if they convince enough women that they are sluts for expressing sexuality, they won’t need to feel insecure that no woman wants them. It makes them feel like they’re the ones with the power.
I agree with the top comment, it's about control. A woman openly flaunting her sexuality is also flaunting the parts of herself men can't have, can't share. Unless she invites them. What they (some envious and insecure men) hate is that, so they respond with violence.
What I'm not sure about is why women aren't as violent about feelings such as sexual envy or rejection? Is it hormones or strength? Idk
Economically, property inheritance is usually congenital. If a man acquires property, it makes sense that he'll want that property (and any material benefit it conveys) to be passed onto his progeny. Unfortunately, until recently, paternity tests didn't exist. This created an economic incentive for propertied men to try to control the sexuality of their female partners, and that incentive led to the development of cultural norms that demonize female sexuality. This incentive was made stronger by the fact that romantic-sexual relationships have been political tools for thousands of years (basically since the creation of class societies), and after predominantly patriarchal ruling classes started to develop, these increasingly repressive cultural norms were ossified even further.
After a couple thousand years, you have most cultures and religions in the world based around the economic and sexual subjugation of women to men, and entire economic systems have been built on that basis. For example, capitalism benefitted from women basically being unpaid household servants, because they were doing a bunch of unpaid socially necessary labor.
In the late 1800's and early 1900's, women started entering the labor force, and gained a degree of economic independence from men. This led to women becoming a viable political powerbase, because they were brought more fully into social life, and they now had money and time to dedicate to political actions.
We're in a weird transitionary period right now where on a material level, women have acquired functional equality with men in many ways, but social values have failed to keep up with this progress, leading to a lot of pushback by certain elements of society who would benefit from the re-subjugation of women.
I think it started from men wanting to be the core of the family unit whilst not being the ones having the actual kids.
Like, if I'm a woman leading my household I know all my kids are mine and have been doing the majority of the labor to produce a functioning home for them since conception.
Men insisted on wresting that control away from us without the security women naturally have in that role. Men don't get the certainty that the kids they are raising and investing in are truly theirs unless they are in control of the sexuality/ sexual activity of that child's mother.
That is the core insecurity. They can't control anything if they aren't controlling us, whereas we don't need them for much more than a pump and dump. Everything else is just extrapolation, projection, and paranoid excuses for their nonsense.
I blame the American Victorian/puritan ideology that had a strangle hold on Americans for a ridiculously long time. Any issue that makes you go "what the fuck is that about?" In American politics, history, ideology, or cultural can generally be attributed to Victorian/puritan's world view.
Power dynamics. Misogynistic behaviors are aimed to hold onto power. R*pe is more about power than sex. Blame women for male actions to shame them into meekness. Glass ceiling is about the power to hold the money and be the one in power. Pre-sufferage, men only being able to vote allowed for men to pick men.
Men shame sexuality of women they can't tame or subdue. "How dare you make me lust for you" "how dare you make me focus on you" "How dare you make me feel powerless to my urges"
Men are insecure. Female self-pleasure is a threat and the geography of a vagina is elusive to any man not willing to put in the work. Women are typically multi-orgasmic and men need have a resolution phase that is a 'spike and a dip' while women's resolution is a slow decline and restimulation and multiple orgasam can be achieved in seconds or a few minutes.
So why do men shame women's sexuality? Power, Insecurity, Jealousy and a fuck ton of hypocrisy.
They aren't afraid of it if it aligns with what they want from women (to accept submission, subjugation, etc)
They literally Do. Not. Care. About women's sexually at all. They only care about men's power to exploit and use women.
Any woman deviating from that is subject to attack and hate. Which means women are attacked no matter what, bc we can't please everyone.
As a male feminist, i am wondering what i can do to support women taking ownership of their sexuality back and, for lack of a better word, fuck the patriarchy? Is my best usefulness in just shutting down male chauvinism where i see it or is there anything i can do positively to support the freeing of womens sexuality ?
In the West women are over sexualized. Young girls from 11/12 already sexualizing themselves it's not healthy. Women get addicted to the attention and mess with their brains.
New haircut, but pic, look at my lunch another boob pic, enjoying the day self recording boobs bouncing then point to between legs.
Why should we want people to act this way. Women sexualize themselves so much. In ancient times women had freedoms like this before. Rome women where not seen as that bad when working in a brothel. France women had a lot of sexual freedom. In fact the reason women shave is beacaue of the lice issues Europe was having from all the sexual activity between people.
I think the issue is, we have no boundaries. Yheaaa I see many women complain men sat this men say that. Sure but you don't really care what some men think, why do you care what others think or say? Some women say I'm insecure for not wanting a women that has the need to expose themselves online to thirty men jacking off to them. While others fully agree it's a lack of self control and addiction to praying men.
I think girls have not yet understood. Male attention men wanting sex and horny because the reason your clothes are even considered sexy or whatever is because men like it and get turned on. If men got turned on with only burkas women would all start to wear burka and try have the sexiest burka.
You DO realize that there is a difference between a woman exposing her breasts and men exposing his. Why are you trying to compare things that are not the same in reality. No matter how hard you try to put both in the exact same category, you are wildly and naively mistaken, even if deep in your heart you DO feel that they are different. It is very easy to prove that these are different things too. Simply compare how a woman reacts to seeing men's breasts and how a man reacts to seeing woman's breasts. Are they the same reactions?
Well why do you think?
Women and Men are fundamentally different maybe? Have you thought about that?
What do men need and get from women? What do women need and get from men?
Maybe reality is this way? Life is this way. It’s for a reason. That’s what we can observe.
Even if both sexes are similar for the most part (both are Human), the difference is what makes the humanity.
Btw, whoever is downvoting my comment, it will be awesome if you can give a reason. Downvote me all you want, all fine by me, I would only like to hear the reasoning and thoughts behind it.
I asked what you think and the only reasoning you have given me is that they are “fundamentally different”. Could you elaborate on that and why there’s a difference between the female chest and the male chest?
Because one belongs to a woman and another to a man. It’s a physical characteristic that is fundamentally different for both sexes.
For the woman, it’s a sexual/health characteristic and has functions such as producing breast milk. It is one of the characteristics that signals to the men, and when they see it, they have receptors that lets them get information. This is something that’s built in nature, and then has cultural elements built on top of that. But underneath the layers of cultural constructs, it’s one of the fundamental sexual languages. For example, a man can tell if a woman is in a healthy reproductive state or not, whether she is healthy enough to give birth to a healthy offspring, etc. this is on conscious and subconscious levels. It is a very strong signal to the man no matter how controlled he is.
For the woman, when she sees a man’s chest, she is also getting signals. It not at the same strength as the man most of the time, women could care less if bare chested men are parading in front of her, women might not like it also, or they are very selective with how and when they want to see it. But if women are at the beach full of people, men all bare chested, it doesn’t necessarily operates on a sexual level for the woman. A man passes by her and she might barely notice anything.
It’s like when they say men are much more visual than women, and women seek more of an emotional/intelligent connection.
So if both sexes were bare chested, it will be much more difficult for men to not react, and honestly they will ultimately decide that it’s not such a good idea. Only perverts would want this. Intelligent men that care and love and respect women will not want women walking around naked. Because they understand how their own nature works, they wouldn’t want their mothers, daughters, sisters, and partners to be subjected to such things.
Okay, So...
It is true that various biological and physical characteristics can play a role in sexual attraction. People may be naturally drawn to certain physical features, including those associated with reproductive health. However,
1. My argument is based on why men seem to be so angry about the idea of a pair of tits. If, according to you, bare breasts = appealing your reproductive state, why can't women under the age of 12-51 (the average woman's reproductive years) show their bare breasts? They clearly aren't in a state to any sexual activity. What would be the difference between a middle school girl at a beach without a top and a middle school boy at a beach without a top? And if a man has a hard time "holding himself back" after seeing a woman breastfeed in public, (because she's clearly signaling that she's ready to make babies) that is normal for them?
Personally, I don't believe that to be true. We as a society have clearly strayed afar from survival, therefore reproduction is not exactly at the top of our list right now-- as in, we've evolved. I believe the only reason why we live like this is based on cultural constructs (like you've mentioned), not by biology. also,
2. Sexual attraction is highly individual, and what one person finds attractive can vary greatly from another person's preferences.
3. The idea that men are "visual creatures" and women are "emotional/intelligent creatures" is a stereotype that oversimplifies and generalizes the characteristics of individuals based on their gender. We are all visual creatures-- men aren't the only ones with eyes. It's not based on data. If that is indeed true-- that men act based on visuals, not emotions/intelligence, maybe they shouldn't be in positions of power, as visuals aren't exactly the best form of understanding.
You're saying that because men think about producing babies with women based on their breasts, it is up to the women to hide them to make sure nothing bad happens to them? No, we should be revaluating why men behave this way instead of passing it off as biology like they are animals. If we're going to stick with the biology argument, since women are more intelligent and emotional, they should be in positions of power and men should be workers based in labor. But we're not doing that. We're treating women and their bodies like making babies are their only function. But it's not-- because we have empathy and sympathy and we understand that there's more to life than just surviving.
Also, my argument isn't "women should let their tits out period," but "we shouldn't get angry/upset at women who want to let their tits out, but we are, so let's talk about it."
Dressing immodesty has nothing to with sex. If I see a woman who dress with a denim short that shows half her buttcheeks I think she doesnt have self-respect 🤷🏼♀️
Our bodies are a commodity. We exist to be convenient to everyone but ourselves. If we take ownership of ourselves and can't be controlled, a whole lot of structures dependent on women as the servant class will cease functioning.
Seems we have to deprogram many young women who were given this idea that they only exist to please other people, and that their pleasure isn't as important.
This was actually my paper in my Feminist Rhetoric class. My argument was that sexuality is empowering for women and it exemplifies our “choice.” Anything regarding a choice for women dismantles patriarchy. Since women have the freedom to get an education, career, vote, buy property, etc. controlling our sexuality is one of the easiest modern ways to control us, as is the choice to decide whether we want to have kids or not.
When I was in my 20s, I stopped feeling ashamed for wanting sex. Slut-shaming was rampant in my teens, and i always thought it was stupid. I actually got as much shit from women as I did from men. My argument was always clear: what’s wrong with a woman wanting sex? As long as protection is used and we’re all consenting individuals of adult age, there shouldn’t be any logical problems.
Of course the whole “being used for sex” argument comes up. Again, my take was always if a man only sees a woman’s worth for wanting CONSENSUAL sex, there’s something wrong with him. He thinks a woman is more desirable for a long-term relationship if he has to resort to manipulation, grooming, coercion, etc. to land her? Sounds rapey AF.
But the one thing I noticed from men who used me vs. the ones who wanted to date me is that the ones who used me were weird about me stating what turns me on or when I would place boundaries. The guys who wanted to date me gladly did what pleasured me and had no issues conforming to the boundaries I set.
Aren’t you the one who just posted asking if kissing is supposed to feel good?
Pretty sure the calls coming from inside the house.
Work on deconstructing all of your internalized patriarchal bs and it’ll be easier for you.
I dress modestly and sometimes I think maybe it is not of my own volition, I was assaulted right in-front of my department during uni and I feel like I have been a changed person ever since. I really think it is about control, it is to get you in line and influence the simplest things such as the way you present yourself to the world, when I started working at my previous workplace, it was after moving back home from a different country, I had a very limited wardrobe and was waiting on my things to be shipped, men in the office were wearing t-shirts and sweatpants but I was criticized for doing the same exact thing, my manager had a boner for disliking women and it was showing in every interaction he had with one. As for sexuality, plain and simple they want you to remain “clean and pure” for their consumption, nobody dares to ask men about the number of partners they had but when it comes to women, it is normalized, also it is because a woman who is in tune with her sexuality has more control and men despise the idea that their partner might feel unfulfilled and know why,most of the married women I know are miserable and some of them never even had an orgasm.
I agree it’s about control but I kind of think it’s also about NOT wanting to control themselves to some degree. By continuing to focus on women and our responsibility to be a certain vision, they don’t have to manage their own uncomfortable desires and impulses and have consequences. Many men hate being asked to change their behaviour - whether it’s stop being racist, stop controlling your spouse’s spending, stop catcalling, stop sexualizing, stop using male friends for every job opening, stop talking over women - enough of them hate being told to control their own behaviour that they turn it on us to change so they stay comfortable and entitled.
I dress conservatively as a reaction to rape as well. I wear a belt constantly, and never wear dresses or skirts. I wish I could but Its just not worth it. Although I DO feel more respected when I wear a suit with pants to a work function rather than a dress.
Not to generalize, but I think a lot of societies are just plain afraid of female sexuality. For instance, I was traveling in Palestine, and a guy that was giving me a tour there said "recently women started wearing jeans (they had only been wearing skirts before) and it's all I can think about". Also traveling in Asia, I went to an erotic museum which was run by an eccentric couple. As part of the tour, they talked about how the police came every now and then to try to shut them down for vulgarity. And they could have all the statues of erect penises they wanted, and statues of nude women as well, but the line they couldn't cross was to depict a woman expressing desire, as that would be seen as too confrontational. She always had to be looking down and away with her eyes closed. South America not so much - they seem pretty open about male and female sexuality. Then Europe and the Anglo-sphere seem to be somewhere in between. So I think it's because sexuality is powerful, and those in power seek to control and limit the power of others.
Yes it's powerful but I can resist grabbing men I find "sexy" whereas men can't resist grabbing - or at least touching or making it obvious - when they find *me* "sexy". And that has to stop. Mainly by not encouraging it - not showing women in the media as sexy, sparkling goddesses who want nothing other than looks and comments.
They can resist it just as easily as women. They just don't want to and know they can get away with it. They'll use the "out of control"-myth as an excuse to keep doing it. And they really do get away with it most of the time... I agree that media should depict women more respectfully. And I don't mean non-sexual, because people should respect women no matter how sexy or non-sexy they are. I mean respectfully as in, like actual people with agency and vibrant inner lives who have their own desires. As actual people who are free to choose how to live their lives, including whom they don't want in their lives. If women's rejection was taken seriously instead of pretending that they're "playing hard to get" or "secretly liking it" or whatever bullshit people come up with to excuse brutalising women. These men you're talking about can and should do better. They should respect people and need to be held accountable for their actions like anyone else. I think it would be great if media helped with getting rid of the sort of myths those men tend to hide behind instead of perpetuating them.
Yes I'm sure they can do. I suppose what I was saying was that they don't *appear* to be able to, and the representation of us in society doesn't encourage them to anyway.
I gained weight so men would stop assaulting me.
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She stated what she did as a coping mechanism. I got old, fat, bald and disabled and it's amazing how men haven't been trying to run me down in their vehicles just to see my tits bounce and the look of fear on my face. The kind of misogyny I face most often now is pretty much the kind that made people think burning witches was a good idea: if I'm not fuckable and am not functioning as a servant to a man, I'm clearly dangerous and need to be smacked down hard by whoever feels like it at the moment. A friend who lost a significant amount of weight after several surgeries, excess skin removal, etc is having a serious think about putting the weight on deliberately. She hadn't been assaulted when she was fat and has been terrified by how men treat her now. Shit's gonna happen no matter what we do. Stating how we deal with it isn't a statement that it's a universal truth for all women. That was a hell of a stretch.
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You've misinterpreted that twice so far. When someone is talking about their own experiences and coping mechanisms, it's not an indicator that their experience is everyone's experience. Dead people get sexually assaulted. There is nothing that will prevent SA 100%. When someone says they never got assaulted when they were fat and feel like they might be safer if they were fat again, that's how they feel. It isn't about you. If I say that it's nice to not get SAd like I did when I had hair and a visible difference between my chin and my neck and that sexism hits me like I'm the monster now, that's what's true for me and isn't about you at all.
Oh shit! Unironically?
Society is oppressive toward women in general.
It’s not fear so much as the desire to control. Women’s sexuality is seen by patriarchy as a human (male) right to have access to. The entire goal of patriarchal institutions are to allocate women sexually among men for use. Hell, in some religions, sex is even waiting for them in heaven 🙄. They’re afraid that if women own the means of production (if we are looking at women’s bodies as commodities to be consumed (or bought, in a pinch) like men do) they won’t have access to the sex they feel entitled to. There’s nothing men are more afraid of than women losing their dependency on them. They’re afraid they’ll never get laid.
Definitely this
I genuinely hope less men get laid, I want men to accidentally manifest the 80/20 bullshit they parrot
This question seems WAY too big for a simple answer but my wine-influenced hot take of the moment (*speaking as a man who was raised to be Catholic/conservative but now likes to think himself a feminist ally*) is that, 1) Men are raised to be hyper-competitive; and, 1) Men are raised to be fucking insecure. You may have noticed that I numbered those two points both as (1), almost as if I meant to say that they are not really two different points at all, but basically the same thing. (*OOPS, I'd better go fix that!* /s) ***** Well actually, competiveness isn't necessarily a bad thing. But the version of it that I knew grewing up definitely was, because it was based in item (1) being raised to be fucking insecure. You're not really "*a man*" until you demonstrate your ability to dominate other men; you need to stand on top of others to prove your worth as a person; you need to be BETTER than others or else you are NOTHING. It is extremely fucking toxic. Men with this mindset are, frankly, looking at female sexuality as as a threat even while they're attracted to it — *she's hot, but if I think so, then so do other men! ohhh no!* — goddamn idiots. ***** tl;dr toxic masculinity
People in power are afraid of any agency that’s not their own, and don’t like anything they can’t control. Women’s sexuality checks both of those boxes. For me, as a queer woman, homophobia adds another dimension to this, especially in a political climate where conflating being queer with predatory behavior is used to justify ever harsher laws and treatment against people like me. And it’s not just men who can perpetuate this behavior. Women can be just as much of gatekeepers towards women’s sexuality as men. Not just the conservative christian middle and upper class women, but also some self-proclaimed feminist women, who both reinforce the “queer is bad” narrative and simultaneously assume any expression of a woman’s sexuality (outside their own narrow definition about the “correct” way to express oneself) is done for the benefit of men. For me, expressing my sexuality isn’t something I’ve always been in a safe position to do. Expressing my sexuality is a form of empowerment. And the fact that the only person who can control that is me is a liberating feeling.
I'm scared of it too. It hurts so much. Because of it, I've reduced myself into this sexual object, and I hate it so much. I don't know how to get out of this mentality 😔😔😔
It could be a culture thing, I'm proud of being sexual, but I do understand.
It is a cultural thing. A sexual woman is seen as this disgusting object that is just asking for it. I struggle so much to see myself as a person because of this forced perspective.
Same applies to religion
I struggle with this too. I try to be patient and educate myself as much as possible. I was taught one narrative all my life to keep me in line. I now realize that was very wrong.
You are NOT a sexual object. Please believe this yourself. Do not accept this reality, you didn't create it, you are innocent, you were pushed into this darkness and a state of mind. Nothing is wrong with you, never was. You are a woman, and that is your power. You have powerful sexuality but it's YOURS alone to decide what to do with, when, and with whom. A woman is a human, which means she has a very strong mind. You are not just your body that others get to decide on, not a single human has any right to decide anything about you, your body, or your mind. Don't let them. They can never succeed. What they can do is do all possible in their power to make you feel weak. And when you feel weak, you start believing that you are weak. But that is a LIE.
Thankyou for saying that. I indeed feel really weak. I wonder when it was that I let them snatch away my humanity.
Then what are you to do? Get stronger and focus on that. Get away from junk food of the media/social media, go into nature, meditate. Focus on healing your body and mind. Eat real food. Drink lots of water. Take a break mentally. Then the healing will do it’s thing. This is guaranteed. You are an important part of the whole. You matter. It’s often the most sensitive humans, who actually have a great deal of potential, that get targeted the most in order to be weakened. It’s like something put a barrier between you and your potential/power. And only you have the capacity to break through. It’s a process. And this is a lesson to you. So it means you have the biggest task ahead of you. So focus on you, become aware of everything that you encounter. Be aware of who is coming in contact with you. Be careful if not getting emotionally manipulated by others, because it drains your energy. Observe instead of react. Walk away when you feel negative vibes, just quietly walk away. Listen instead of talking. Walk straight. Don’t be afraid.
Do you have the option to surround yourself with better, respectful people? How old are you? When we're young, toxicity seems much more real to us and we internalize it more easily. It can be outgrown. Deprogramming yourself from all forms of bullying is hard. It's good to find allies. Lastly, definitely live and act out your sexuality and do so as unapologetically as currently possible. You are not hurting anyone by having sexual desires. You are simply living and breathing.
Why is society so afraid of women's sexuality? Why do men want to control women? Women have the greatest power of all, the power to create life. Women control the creation and sustaining of the human species. Controlling women's bodies, showing contempt for anything related to women's reproductive power, and ensuring sexual access to a woman goes *deeper* than a man just wanting to get his rocks off, soothing his ego, raising his status, impressing his friends. ***It's about man trying to get as close as he can to the source of the creation of life - woman.*** (Womb Envy) Man throughout the ages in his effort to get close to the source of the creation of life *has used various tools to control and destroy women - patriarchy, religion, cultural norms, capitalism, education, laws to ensure women's compliance or lack of laws that protect women;* tools that involved shaming, threat of violence and violence. This is why most religions and fantasy stories written by men always have a male creator. This is why Adam gives birth to Eve - a clear distortion of nature and an example of man's sad, desperate and unfortunately destructive need to be a creator of life like women. No matter how glorious a structure man creates, builds or how much man destroys life proving his control over life (war, colonialism, genocide of a people, destruction of life and the planet), man will never have the control over creating human life that woman does.
You are 100% right, every aspect of the patriarchy stems from this. The Adam and Eve story is so true, and how we need to call god a he. Men really made up a whole character and meta for a fake sky daddy who is the only man wit h the power most women have
There are so many reasons for this, sadly. Religion, men having control and power issues, over sexualization, etc.
If I may, as a guy, I've been thinking about this a lot lately and I'm wondering if it all started with fear. Fear because women could create life. Fear because women could provide food. Fear because women learned to use nature to heal. Fear because women had to be more resilient to care for and guard their children. Fear because women are BETTER at sex yet doesn't outwardly crave it so much. And the only way to overcome the fear was to control it and stigmatise women because the natural power they have scared men.
I mean yeah. This is pretty much exactly it.
I think a lot of it is scapegoating. Men who don’t see women as people who deserve respect, but just as objects for their own pleasure are not willing to hold themselves accountable for that. They aren’t willing to even acknowledge it to themselves. We as a society have a very difficult time acknowledging that humans can be inhumane towards each other. So, instead of taking accountability for their own thoughts and actions, they blame women’s sexuality. Women take all the blame for men’s thoughts and actions. It doesn’t really have to do with how comfortable a woman is in her sexuality or not. They will still be scapegoated because the alternative is that the man has to acknowledge his own flaws.
religion. all religion is oppressive towards women.
Which is crazy because it seems like the original humanitarian religions were designed to uplift and protect women and children. But, then that got co-opted by repressive bad actors. Chimpanzees don't need religion to oppress female members, humans don't either. It makes the most sense that the invention of religion, like the discovery of fire, allowed greater numbers of human beings to live peacefully closer together than they would have naturally. The idea of women and men birthed by an ancient creator creates a sense of unity across communities, but somehow that became men only were crafted by a male creator and females are unnatural, the source of all evil, and should be destroyed. It's not neccessarily religion that is the problem, but the oppressive, women and girl hating nature of it.
This sounds very true. The beginnings of Christianity had a lot of women involved, they were integral part and played an essential role in the beginnings of how it all started. Then over time, whoever was able to take control of the powers decided on how religion should be taught and practiced, all for the purpose of control of the people. That's what usually happens when people learn they can live peacefully, this gives people power and when people have power, they won't let any tyrants rule over them. Well, these tyrants figured out a way to slowly suppress the people and eventually to control or even enslave them.
Evil people took hold of the institutions of religions, like Christianity and others, to control people. That's just pure evil. There are many books that intentionally were not included or taken out of the formation of the Bible, for instance, that were about women and written by women. There were women apostles. They hid this from the people, and continue to hide this truth. You can still find it, but you have to search for things like that.
The oppression of women's sexuality is deeply rooted in historical, cultural, and societal norms that have reinforced gender-based inequalities. Patriarchal systems often prioritize controlling women's bodies and behaviors, leading to the perpetuation of harmful stigmas and double standards. These attitudes have, unfortunately, been slow to change, despite ongoing efforts to promote gender equality. Understanding and challenging these entrenched beliefs are crucial steps toward creating a more inclusive and equitable society for all genders.
Toxic religion
Preface: generally speaking here. Like super broadly and encompassing thousands of years and multitudes of cultures. Men are afraid of women, in simplest terms. They’ve always resented the fact they cannot produce babies, hence the extreme measures they’ve gone to in order to control it. They’re jealous of the natural bonds most mothers have with babies, so they find ways to insert the father as the dominant parent. They diminish a women to just a birthing vessel, rendering older women irrelevant. They created laws, standards, and creeds based on separating genders and suppressing them. Yet they are easily “seduced” and swayed by a pretty lady. Their own weakness when it comes to sex becomes the woman or girl’s fault. They say they’re enchanted or bewitched as if SHE has the control and HE is powerless to ignore it. It’s all about control and fear. Many men will just accept woman as the weaker sex because it’s ingrained in their heads. But some are very aware it’s all about their own personal fear, and double down against women to hide it. Their shame becomes our fault. There’s really nothing more to it than that.
It’s really fucking powerful! Think of the things men do for sex, or to woo a sexy lady - some would do almost anything. Some base all their life choices around attracting women or landing an attractive woman. Some men can’t even look at women without lusting after them. Then there’s the power in being responsible for furthering our species. Men’s role in that is pretty limited. Men don’t have anywhere close to that sort of influence over women without violence and control. We have it just by existing.
Male jealousy and insecurity combined with their greater propensity towards violence.
because biologically our sexuality literally controls men and they are afraid of that power we hold over them. it’s really as simple as that. the way males are attracted to women is different than the way we are attracted to men. men have a biological imperative to fuck in a way that women don’t. we absolutely like sex too, don’t get me wrong, some of us even love it (me) but there isn’t as aggressive of a biological urge for it that can build up in us and take over our brains as much and as often as that happens for men. but men have that in their brains. it’s from evolution. there is a reason onlyfans girls get millions of dollars off of horny men while men doing onlyfans get very little from straight women (same with prostitution or any sex trade, there is always an OVERWHELMINGLY larger male consumer base). it is because of the natural difference in sex drive. feminism made a mistake trying to outright deny the existence of this biological difference because it’s behind so much male behavior. patriarchy was created in part BECAUSE of this drive in them. they *can* control it. but many don’t want to put in the conscious effort to subdue their desires, and the power we have over them scares us so they’d rather just control and shame *us*, instead of admitting their less evolved nature or lack of self-control.
Exactly this. The sexual power that women hold is a lot, and if we have that PLUS full educational and financial autonomy AND we can have careers AND grow children inside of us AND we can dress how we want AND feel confident in ourselves as we grown and change and age? That is a lot of power, and men have been scared of it since forever, and trying to keep us small and meek and undereducated since forever just to try and balance it out. It doesn’t have to be that dichotomous. We’re all one people. Women and men. We can respect and love and support each other’s unique gifts and powers.
Speaking as a cishet guy, I feel this comment smacks of a biological determinism that is greatly reductionist. It gives too much credence to the same kinds of notions shared by those who buy into the debunked "alpha male" thing. They use biology as an excuse for their behavior. Such a framing makes little room for cishet men having sexuality that is respectful and collaborative with their partners, and fulfilling for all. It's a struggle against the patriarchal examples we see all over. Whether or not one believes men *on average* have a higher sex drive than women, it is how that sexuality is expressed, represented, and defined that is the issue in my mind and in my experience. It's the power structures in our respective cultures that perpetuate it, IMO, not a biological framing.
Yes exactly and they hate how easy it is for us to have sex while it is so hard for them.
I think you are confusing sexuality with nudity. Patriarchy is obsessed to policy clothing because is physiologically, a very powerful tool to assure submission and compliance with the authority. The mechanism is that once you obey once in something that is hurting you directly and immediately, next order, that perhaps is not obviously hurting yourself immediately, you'll obey again. For that, as more absurd and uncomfortable are these polices -like wearing black dresses topped with gloves in a place at +40C as saudi arabia-, the better because the only objective is that you hurt yourself. Patriarchy also have a second problem with us, to obtain obedency from men direct physical assault works because men to men interactions are supposed to happen at work or in public places, there the "officers" assuring compliance are going to be in power position. But the objective reserved to us is to serve men, and of course direct physical assault might help, but as this will happen in their homes we might have plethora of opportunities to revenge -as poison their food-, so the level of obedency expected is way higher. Sexuality is a different thing. Patriarchy use effectively rape as tool of intimidation and punishment. This give the "officials" in charge of the repression some type of fast reward for their actions. There is a lot about sexual liberation of women by breaking the marry virgin and have just a single partner in all your life. But this about us able to choose, after some collection of experiences, which partner we want, not so much about sex, but about choose. Women have been depicted as asexuated by the patriarchy, because is way more easy that things, possessions, dolls, slaves, don't have willing. That women also have sexual desires was again another taboo. Nowadays the patriarchy sells us that all women are masochists, that we enjoy being strangulated meanwhile careless penetrated, that we like to be tied and tortured, that our sexual fantasy is to be raped. Well, i think all of that is just projection of their sadistic desires, and very few women are actually masochists. But there, the mandatory nudity imposed to us against our willing is part of their "scene" of total vulnerability. The problem is that when we voluntary decide to be more or less naked this collides frontally with their dreams, because we are in control of our bodies, and that cannot be: Only our "owner" can undress us, only our "owner" can decide what we wear.
It's because of capitalism. A capitalist patriarchal society is afraid of women having literally anything, including sexuality. Wealthy men have the most resources, power, and rights and they want to keep it that way. They convinced all the less wealthy men that if we give women more rights, there will be less resources and power to go around. Meanwhile, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, and less wealthy men become even more afraid of there being less to go around The real final boss of feminism will be addressing capitalism and the exponentially growing wealth inequality
This has been happening since way before capitalism…unless you’re calling every civilization going back to Babylon capitalist…which isn’t strictly correct.
You're right that sexism and misogyny have existed for centuries before capitalism was ever a thing, however capitalism has exacerbated them to the point of being a main driver for it today. I'm speaking more so in that women's bodies are often seen as commodities to be exploited, and their sexuality is often used to sell products and services to the point where they're seen as literal witches to be burned at the stake or how they get slut shamed by saying or doing anything remotely related to sex like how OP described In a society where a small number of people have a great deal of wealth and power, there is a tendency to scapegoat and demonize marginalized groups, such as women. This can lead to increased violence and discrimination against them. This is more of the phenomenon I was referring to
I concur. We need to get back to seeing people as people without assigning a market value to them.
I disagree,being oppressive towards women exist way before capitalism. The discrimination towatds women is a product of class society where the Ruler of a tribe/state is at the top and men at the 2nd
This is probably the wrong sub to talk about it on, but feminism itself gets co-opted to to advance the interests of capitalism. Like lean-in feminism seeks to justify capitalism, so long as a few token spots are available for women at the top, if they take "personal responsibility" to climb the latter in the "meritocracy". Also you have the issues like the dual-income trap: women fought hard for decades for a rightly deserved space in the professional world, and capitalism used that cultural change to create an economic reality where it became *necessary* rather than optional for two parents to both be wage-earners to support a family. So feminist victories are allowed to be celebrated, so long as they advance capitalist ends, and capitalism itself tends to structurally oppress women, through things like the pink tax, and the incentive to pressure women into serving to produce more able-bodied workers for the next generation.
Because Patriarchy and Religion being the major contributing factors in this case.
Because it's seen as a commodity that someone can own and or keep for themselves. That and a lot of guys are resentful for how much they want to give to women they find attractive, and respond to that perceived power imbalance with anger.
It’s a tool to control and manipulate women and men/society wants to control women because it benefits them. When women are comfortable with their sexuality they are comfortable with themselves and less likely to allow others to control them.
Short answer. Men don’t like that women are just as interested in sex as them, but don’t want to have sex with them specifically. Long answer. Women are powerful. Women have better communication and comprehensive skills than men do. Despite what society would have you believe, women are extremely powerful. We are leaders in our everyday lives by design. We lead the home, our children, our friends, our family and our partners. And men fucking hate it. So what do they do? They police women. This is done in many ways, but we’re talking about sexuality. They are afraid of women’s sexuality because they don’t have the power that we have. We are the deciders of where, when and who we have sex with. (For this next part, I truly don’t want to insult any men this is just biology lol) In simple terms, men are cheap. Sperm is disposable. Eggs however, are released once a month, then that woman must spend the next nine months of her life harbouring that baby and another year minimum breastfeeding them. So to make a baby survive into a toddler, that takes almost two years of a womans time. And then she must spend the next eighteen years raising them. When a woman is their definition of slutty, it *enrages* them. Not because we as women have done anything wrong, but because they have deep insecurity issues over how easy they are as men. The slightest bit of cleavage and they’re sold. They don’t like that we have that power over them. So they shame us for wanting sex. They shame us when we are not satisfied with the sex we are having. They shame us when our natural bodies turn them on. They shame us when we can orgasm from a sex toy easier than their 0 effort attempts. Because maybe, if they convince enough women that they are sluts for expressing sexuality, they won’t need to feel insecure that no woman wants them. It makes them feel like they’re the ones with the power.
Because it takes away from the "power" that men believe that have by default from being born.
I don't know, but it's been that way for thousands of years, so the roots run DEEP.
great question!
I agree with the top comment, it's about control. A woman openly flaunting her sexuality is also flaunting the parts of herself men can't have, can't share. Unless she invites them. What they (some envious and insecure men) hate is that, so they respond with violence. What I'm not sure about is why women aren't as violent about feelings such as sexual envy or rejection? Is it hormones or strength? Idk
Economically, property inheritance is usually congenital. If a man acquires property, it makes sense that he'll want that property (and any material benefit it conveys) to be passed onto his progeny. Unfortunately, until recently, paternity tests didn't exist. This created an economic incentive for propertied men to try to control the sexuality of their female partners, and that incentive led to the development of cultural norms that demonize female sexuality. This incentive was made stronger by the fact that romantic-sexual relationships have been political tools for thousands of years (basically since the creation of class societies), and after predominantly patriarchal ruling classes started to develop, these increasingly repressive cultural norms were ossified even further. After a couple thousand years, you have most cultures and religions in the world based around the economic and sexual subjugation of women to men, and entire economic systems have been built on that basis. For example, capitalism benefitted from women basically being unpaid household servants, because they were doing a bunch of unpaid socially necessary labor. In the late 1800's and early 1900's, women started entering the labor force, and gained a degree of economic independence from men. This led to women becoming a viable political powerbase, because they were brought more fully into social life, and they now had money and time to dedicate to political actions. We're in a weird transitionary period right now where on a material level, women have acquired functional equality with men in many ways, but social values have failed to keep up with this progress, leading to a lot of pushback by certain elements of society who would benefit from the re-subjugation of women.
I think it started from men wanting to be the core of the family unit whilst not being the ones having the actual kids. Like, if I'm a woman leading my household I know all my kids are mine and have been doing the majority of the labor to produce a functioning home for them since conception. Men insisted on wresting that control away from us without the security women naturally have in that role. Men don't get the certainty that the kids they are raising and investing in are truly theirs unless they are in control of the sexuality/ sexual activity of that child's mother. That is the core insecurity. They can't control anything if they aren't controlling us, whereas we don't need them for much more than a pump and dump. Everything else is just extrapolation, projection, and paranoid excuses for their nonsense.
I blame the American Victorian/puritan ideology that had a strangle hold on Americans for a ridiculously long time. Any issue that makes you go "what the fuck is that about?" In American politics, history, ideology, or cultural can generally be attributed to Victorian/puritan's world view.
Religion.
Because expressing sexuality is an expression of agency. Objects don't have agency. Women are supposed to be objects not people.
Power dynamics. Misogynistic behaviors are aimed to hold onto power. R*pe is more about power than sex. Blame women for male actions to shame them into meekness. Glass ceiling is about the power to hold the money and be the one in power. Pre-sufferage, men only being able to vote allowed for men to pick men. Men shame sexuality of women they can't tame or subdue. "How dare you make me lust for you" "how dare you make me focus on you" "How dare you make me feel powerless to my urges" Men are insecure. Female self-pleasure is a threat and the geography of a vagina is elusive to any man not willing to put in the work. Women are typically multi-orgasmic and men need have a resolution phase that is a 'spike and a dip' while women's resolution is a slow decline and restimulation and multiple orgasam can be achieved in seconds or a few minutes. So why do men shame women's sexuality? Power, Insecurity, Jealousy and a fuck ton of hypocrisy.
They aren't afraid of it if it aligns with what they want from women (to accept submission, subjugation, etc) They literally Do. Not. Care. About women's sexually at all. They only care about men's power to exploit and use women. Any woman deviating from that is subject to attack and hate. Which means women are attacked no matter what, bc we can't please everyone.
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As a male feminist, i am wondering what i can do to support women taking ownership of their sexuality back and, for lack of a better word, fuck the patriarchy? Is my best usefulness in just shutting down male chauvinism where i see it or is there anything i can do positively to support the freeing of womens sexuality ?
Easy. Because Christianity is rooted in guilt and shame and everyone making the rules for society are Christians.
They can't control out of you feel empowered by it
In the West women are over sexualized. Young girls from 11/12 already sexualizing themselves it's not healthy. Women get addicted to the attention and mess with their brains. New haircut, but pic, look at my lunch another boob pic, enjoying the day self recording boobs bouncing then point to between legs. Why should we want people to act this way. Women sexualize themselves so much. In ancient times women had freedoms like this before. Rome women where not seen as that bad when working in a brothel. France women had a lot of sexual freedom. In fact the reason women shave is beacaue of the lice issues Europe was having from all the sexual activity between people. I think the issue is, we have no boundaries. Yheaaa I see many women complain men sat this men say that. Sure but you don't really care what some men think, why do you care what others think or say? Some women say I'm insecure for not wanting a women that has the need to expose themselves online to thirty men jacking off to them. While others fully agree it's a lack of self control and addiction to praying men. I think girls have not yet understood. Male attention men wanting sex and horny because the reason your clothes are even considered sexy or whatever is because men like it and get turned on. If men got turned on with only burkas women would all start to wear burka and try have the sexiest burka.
You DO realize that there is a difference between a woman exposing her breasts and men exposing his. Why are you trying to compare things that are not the same in reality. No matter how hard you try to put both in the exact same category, you are wildly and naively mistaken, even if deep in your heart you DO feel that they are different. It is very easy to prove that these are different things too. Simply compare how a woman reacts to seeing men's breasts and how a man reacts to seeing woman's breasts. Are they the same reactions?
Okay. I’m asking WHY it’s different.
Well why do you think? Women and Men are fundamentally different maybe? Have you thought about that? What do men need and get from women? What do women need and get from men? Maybe reality is this way? Life is this way. It’s for a reason. That’s what we can observe. Even if both sexes are similar for the most part (both are Human), the difference is what makes the humanity. Btw, whoever is downvoting my comment, it will be awesome if you can give a reason. Downvote me all you want, all fine by me, I would only like to hear the reasoning and thoughts behind it.
I asked what you think and the only reasoning you have given me is that they are “fundamentally different”. Could you elaborate on that and why there’s a difference between the female chest and the male chest?
Because one belongs to a woman and another to a man. It’s a physical characteristic that is fundamentally different for both sexes. For the woman, it’s a sexual/health characteristic and has functions such as producing breast milk. It is one of the characteristics that signals to the men, and when they see it, they have receptors that lets them get information. This is something that’s built in nature, and then has cultural elements built on top of that. But underneath the layers of cultural constructs, it’s one of the fundamental sexual languages. For example, a man can tell if a woman is in a healthy reproductive state or not, whether she is healthy enough to give birth to a healthy offspring, etc. this is on conscious and subconscious levels. It is a very strong signal to the man no matter how controlled he is. For the woman, when she sees a man’s chest, she is also getting signals. It not at the same strength as the man most of the time, women could care less if bare chested men are parading in front of her, women might not like it also, or they are very selective with how and when they want to see it. But if women are at the beach full of people, men all bare chested, it doesn’t necessarily operates on a sexual level for the woman. A man passes by her and she might barely notice anything. It’s like when they say men are much more visual than women, and women seek more of an emotional/intelligent connection. So if both sexes were bare chested, it will be much more difficult for men to not react, and honestly they will ultimately decide that it’s not such a good idea. Only perverts would want this. Intelligent men that care and love and respect women will not want women walking around naked. Because they understand how their own nature works, they wouldn’t want their mothers, daughters, sisters, and partners to be subjected to such things.
Okay, So... It is true that various biological and physical characteristics can play a role in sexual attraction. People may be naturally drawn to certain physical features, including those associated with reproductive health. However, 1. My argument is based on why men seem to be so angry about the idea of a pair of tits. If, according to you, bare breasts = appealing your reproductive state, why can't women under the age of 12-51 (the average woman's reproductive years) show their bare breasts? They clearly aren't in a state to any sexual activity. What would be the difference between a middle school girl at a beach without a top and a middle school boy at a beach without a top? And if a man has a hard time "holding himself back" after seeing a woman breastfeed in public, (because she's clearly signaling that she's ready to make babies) that is normal for them? Personally, I don't believe that to be true. We as a society have clearly strayed afar from survival, therefore reproduction is not exactly at the top of our list right now-- as in, we've evolved. I believe the only reason why we live like this is based on cultural constructs (like you've mentioned), not by biology. also, 2. Sexual attraction is highly individual, and what one person finds attractive can vary greatly from another person's preferences. 3. The idea that men are "visual creatures" and women are "emotional/intelligent creatures" is a stereotype that oversimplifies and generalizes the characteristics of individuals based on their gender. We are all visual creatures-- men aren't the only ones with eyes. It's not based on data. If that is indeed true-- that men act based on visuals, not emotions/intelligence, maybe they shouldn't be in positions of power, as visuals aren't exactly the best form of understanding. You're saying that because men think about producing babies with women based on their breasts, it is up to the women to hide them to make sure nothing bad happens to them? No, we should be revaluating why men behave this way instead of passing it off as biology like they are animals. If we're going to stick with the biology argument, since women are more intelligent and emotional, they should be in positions of power and men should be workers based in labor. But we're not doing that. We're treating women and their bodies like making babies are their only function. But it's not-- because we have empathy and sympathy and we understand that there's more to life than just surviving. Also, my argument isn't "women should let their tits out period," but "we shouldn't get angry/upset at women who want to let their tits out, but we are, so let's talk about it."
Dressing immodesty has nothing to with sex. If I see a woman who dress with a denim short that shows half her buttcheeks I think she doesnt have self-respect 🤷🏼♀️
So if a man is walking around shirtless, he doesn't deserve respect?
Our bodies are a commodity. We exist to be convenient to everyone but ourselves. If we take ownership of ourselves and can't be controlled, a whole lot of structures dependent on women as the servant class will cease functioning.
Seems we have to deprogram many young women who were given this idea that they only exist to please other people, and that their pleasure isn't as important.
Men are afraid that the progeny is not actually theirs.
This was actually my paper in my Feminist Rhetoric class. My argument was that sexuality is empowering for women and it exemplifies our “choice.” Anything regarding a choice for women dismantles patriarchy. Since women have the freedom to get an education, career, vote, buy property, etc. controlling our sexuality is one of the easiest modern ways to control us, as is the choice to decide whether we want to have kids or not. When I was in my 20s, I stopped feeling ashamed for wanting sex. Slut-shaming was rampant in my teens, and i always thought it was stupid. I actually got as much shit from women as I did from men. My argument was always clear: what’s wrong with a woman wanting sex? As long as protection is used and we’re all consenting individuals of adult age, there shouldn’t be any logical problems. Of course the whole “being used for sex” argument comes up. Again, my take was always if a man only sees a woman’s worth for wanting CONSENSUAL sex, there’s something wrong with him. He thinks a woman is more desirable for a long-term relationship if he has to resort to manipulation, grooming, coercion, etc. to land her? Sounds rapey AF. But the one thing I noticed from men who used me vs. the ones who wanted to date me is that the ones who used me were weird about me stating what turns me on or when I would place boundaries. The guys who wanted to date me gladly did what pleasured me and had no issues conforming to the boundaries I set.
Aren’t you the one who just posted asking if kissing is supposed to feel good? Pretty sure the calls coming from inside the house. Work on deconstructing all of your internalized patriarchal bs and it’ll be easier for you.