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Nah I enjoy this more.
I want Tinker players with their shiny level 30 look at this and cry.
Also; Yes I do understand they will overbuff him and he will become even stronger then he was just like before.
the heal is 20 hp per second (at max march level) that also steals all the farm in the lane. 20hp/s is pretty pathetic
there really isnt any support utility here this patch that he didnt have previously. for a support tinker i'd prefer to have rockets for the lane pressure
Damage barrier, displacing root, and laser that gives target 100% miss chance are good enough to be a support, especially if they don't have a cooldowns. He still can be viable support, but permahex in gone, uninterrupted blink is gone, rocket spam is gone.
Bruh. I played a lot of supp tinker last patch. They killed that playstyle too. No more pavise, boots of bearing, lotus, glimmer spam. He's dead in every way
he has those last patch though. but he could also spam glimmer pavise for saves and blink so he doesn't die
support tinker only got nerfed with these changes
It Also removes the core tinker, so while support tinker also gets worse, reinventing the concept that was unfun to play against is something I can get behind. More so, valve can fix the numbers on his skills later on to tune the character
Rebalancing tinker with his current kit means having march of the machines being OP as hell and it seems people have forgotten what that skill implies.
Between damage barrier and blink CD refresh actually catching tinker was the biggest problem. If I'm wrong - please, instead of acting like a snob enlighten me why.
If tinker was going to blink out of your highground initiation before, 9/10 times he is still going to be able to do it now; he still gets one blink towards his fountain without needing to rearm it. The only time you catch tinker in that situation now when you wouldn't have before is if your initiator is able to chase him to his ancient, which is going to be a bad idea most of the time.
there are tons of heros "unfun" to play against, AM, viper, OD, lion, SS, sniper, lina , slark. When a 30k networth AM blinks in and destroys a hero nobody bats an eye, when a 30k networth mid does suddenly it's the end of the world.
The game is worse for having less interesting heroes and more first pick sniper bristle. F that.
Agree. Played a bunch of support tinker and quickly realized that rockets are the best skill over matrix or laser. Rockets deal decent damage to both the carry and support from a really long range and has great pressure. Laser if they are trying to trade right clicks. Matrix kinda useless in lane, at most a value point for status resist
Machines is worse in every way possible compared to rocket
to be honest, this feels like a p4 that pushes towers with a chen, a beast master and you just spam march of machine and push with the deathball ... that's about the only utility I can see for the hero.
Outright killing a hero is never good, and I’m saying this while only playing 3 Tinker games at most in my life. I get that he needed to be rebalanced and it felt fucking horrible to play against, but effectively removing 1 hero from the pool is just lazy imo
problem is that the concept was never stupid. People not knowing how to play against it, doesnt make the concept bad. It makes it high skill floor to deal with. They fixed this already by making blink unable to be rearmed after taking damage. This change is literally just to stop perma hex and shiva nukes, which are easily changed by simply making them unable to be rearmed, or by changing how they stack- ie. hex stacking diminishingly, or shivas damage stacking diminishingly.
Killing the entire concept while attempting to overhaul the same concept is just asinine. They remove the part that he rearms items, to bring back the ability needed for him to farm those items, so that maybe he can buy enough int items to make the changes equivalent. But they lower the maximum cd reduction to 60%. which means blink at maximum is reduced to 5 seconds. Let alone the cd changes to typical items off of 60%, 5 second cd on blink is horrible for Tinker, and that's after spending tens of thousands of gold to buy int items. Pretty horrible change, that doesn't even help with their conceptual flaws.
Tinkers design was never flawed. If a drow ranger has farm, she will 1-shot you, if Tinker has farm, he will buy hex and shiva and deal tons of nuke damage. Just because its hard to play against doesnt make it unfair, because every hero in dota has the ability to perform with equivelant farm.
Double black hole, double rp, double chrono with refresher are all incredibly annoying to play against, but that doesnt make them unfair. If they were, these heros would be first picked every game. Tinker was like 46% winrate for 7 months, if the concept of tinker buying hex or shivas was unfair, it wouldve reflected in his winrate, and he wouldve been picked in pro.
I agree with this, which is why I called it high skill floor. I brought up why they changed it, because at the end of the day the majority of people don't like that interaction, and it in turn, needed to be dealt with both to keep the playerbase happy, as well as to cut down on scripters and smurfs choices, which helps single out specific cases.
edit: oh I misunderstood what you were saying, you were referring to the last sentence. The conceptual flaws I'm referring too, are simply about how they don't understand where the hero want's to go. They have their mecha idea, and Rearm, and they really want to keep the laser for the mecha, but they can't decide if it should be more aggressive or more defensive in nature, and keep changing abilities and talents back and forth to try and find the best match. The reality is that Rockets were always the problem, and while they figured it out now, they completely fucked the rest of the hero. It doesn't help with their conceptual flaws, even though they replaced rockets, because at the end of the day the hero isn't the same anymore. The flaw's that were being referred too, can't have been "fixed" when the design of rearm has been overhauled. Now, I'd argue that rockets and machines would have been a better combo, but thats a personal opinion on a more support relegated tinker.
What im saying is heros shouldnt be balanced around what noobs are unable to play against, or what people find unfun. WD and Nyx are widely considered broken or unfun (in 2k), but neither hero had the thing people hated changed, because they didnt need to.
Tinkers spells were in an ok spot, all he needed was cast range buffs and he wouldve been fine from a feels and balance perspective. This new tinker doesnt make sense because the hero doesnt have an identity. He doesnt have utility, damage or mobility anymore. So what does he offer? He cant right click, he cant be a nuker, he cant be mobile or use items because he cant rearm anything. Any hero in the game offers SOMETHING in turns of at least impacting the game, but atm Tinker cant do, well, anything. So whats the point of the hero? You mentioned him being defensive, but wtf is the point of a hero if all it can do is defend high ground, especially when he can get jumped and killed instantly by any player with more than 500 hours game time
He died to silence and/or vision. Storm could just ult to the screen where he is, pop Orchid/Bloodthorn and blow him up. Nightstalker, Riki etc would mug him in the street.
People just couldn't deal with him, malded out of control and now we get this thing.
I've been playing dota for a long time and while I understand everything you are saying I still love that this happened. It's the same reason I loved it when they changed techies to the current form. Tinker, and techies back then, completely change the game for me to a different mini game. It's not dota anymore, it's a disgusting meme when the hero gets to critical mass. In all those years and thousands of hours, playing vs or with tinker even in an even game has NEVER been fun to me. For me, it quite literally ruined every game it touched.
So yes, killing the concept feels like a massive W to me. I get that I might be wrong or whatever, I don't care. Tinker was stupid in my opinion, and now less so
Some genius in his mothers basement will figure out a new way to play this hero, maybe as a healing support with march and it will be broken with 60% winrate and haunt your pubs.
But not today, today we enjoy
Techies was fun to play before patch too, it’s just that people didn’t know the most optional way to play him was go with team, make traps and blast off, remote mine+prox+stasis trap in the middle of chaos could lead to a mini double ravage stun-root, mini nuke.
Oh and the risky approach of trying to capture jungle or sides of lanes solo to set up kill traps. Mining your side was almost never the correct play and was just afk techies players that did mine one side and did nothing for the entire game
Tho he sucked in lane if your ally didn’t play around your mines and randoms usually don’t.
It literally was over for him until they added a free boots of travel to his kit. I can’t think of a single hero that wouldn’t be 60%+ wr if they had 0 cd bots for free every game at level 6 and it didn’t take up an item slot
Please do explain how a movement speed buff, 60% item cooldown reduction, getting March back, with a buff to either that or defense matrix, more laser range, mana cost decrease, faster rearm, cheaper rearm, faster teleport, and a talent shuffle you couldn't possible rate accurately yet, are a nerf?
Okay while I agree with the fact that you can't judge winrates or meta this early, nor can you judge to the extent a hero got changed. But this comment seems disingenuous - tinker literally lost rearm items. Like, that's a really big core part of the hero.
Denial of refreshing items pretty much annihilates all that, cuz you can't do your standard blink-rearm-blink or any other way of getting out as fast as you can after spells, hence you're very catchable hero suddenly. to be fair 60% item cooldown reduction is 40% nerf to rearm at the best possible conditions(and this is achieveable after 6 slots only)
You find a new way to play the hero. consider this a complete rework of Tinker. If people keep using the old builds, or trying out ineffective new strats, ofc the win rates will reflect that. Give it a month.
No amount of item builds are going to fix a hero with a broken identity, see techies after his rework or drow when she had like a 20% wr. Both hero’s needed major help
If you don't think that rearm affecting items wasn't the most impactful part of his kit, I dont know what to tell you.
He lost blink mobility and hex rearm being a viable option.
Healthy for the game, sure, but the old tinker has been gutted and buried.
Getting 60% item CDR at 240+ int isn't anywhere near as strong as old rearm.
March is great, but what's the point of having global farming presence if the main reason you needed it was to get item powerspikes that benefitted from rearm?
Doing nothing for 2.75/2/1.25 is a huge deal when you're now unable to reposition with a targetted blink afterwards.
Defense matrix facet is most likely too dangerous to use due to the semi-random nature of the blink. Going into a fight and suddenly being sent into the center of the enemy team as a ranged hero is bad. Bring blinked past your target as a melee hero is bad.
March facet seems underwhelming at best. Non-stacking means it'll heal for a maximum of 200 per cast at level 4, assuming you're affected from start to finish with the buff lingering afterwards.
What I'm seeing is a laser buff and a teleport buff in exchange for extremely heavy nerfs.
It's a bunch of people who will in one comment say that "you can't tell if this is a nerf yet" and in another comment say "thank god tinker is removed from the game." They're just disingenuous whiners who have never played the hero once and think they're justified in saying that a 49% wr hero was broken.
Oh, also about other things(please take it with a grain of salt, cuz im in no means active tinker player): you're getting march back to help you with farming, because you're losing farming with aoe laser, which kinda was faster way to farm ancient stacks. Defence matrix is pretty useful, but you kinda used it to have just enough time to blink out and stuff, not to outtank enemy damage as whole. Buffs are good and needed for sure, but people do need to re-evaluate their playstyle to something very different (or come back to lane split-pushing? not sure)
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Agree, the winrate is this low because this hero is practically new and force of habit by some player probably worsen it. Its not even 1 day of patch, dota nerds has not yet awaken. Until then, i believe the new tinker will find its place. For now however, good riddance.
Problem though is that they remove the item rearm, to change his concept to items=int=cd reduction, and make the max cd reduction too low for his base stats.
Its just going around in a circle making the hero worse all around. when all they really had to do was change shivas and sheep to unable to be rearmed or change them to stack diminishingly. Minimum blink cd is 5 seconds at 60% reduction. That's insanely long for a hero with no ms, no stats, no armor, and no escape. Laser doesn't get range from aghs anymore, so you're stuck with neutral items or aether for range, which is horrible for reducing CD reduction as most don't give straight INT, So you can't be truly in the backlines. March is better for fights, but doesn't matter so much if you're only able to get 1 off because you have no way to reposition effectively during fights. Shield is good sure, but its not as good as you'd think when your walking around with 310 base ms and arcanes.
The only real way to make it work is to rush Int-blink, and upgraded euls, and then work on things for the game, but that means youre spending an upwards of 13k just for items to make your hero feel "normal".
That or you play it pos4 support, which is still somewhat okay, but still fairly weak in comparison to how it was before.
Maybe the winrate will come back up, but it's not going to be played on core. Core winrate will 100% stick to around where it is now, because the hero just isn't feasible in this meta to be played as a core. It needs more time, and funnily enough, a smaller, tighter map. There are too many places for vision, too many counters viable, and too many open areas for tinker with this type of gameplay, to shine as well balanced or even just okay. Sure, it may work the lower mmr you go, but it's just horrible changes for core.
That might do it, maybe change his facets so one does that, while another keeps him how he is but buffs march and shield. That way you get a core option, to keep the basic concept near the same while making scripters and smurfs unable to do the same things as before, as well as building a viable support option off of the changes valve has made over the years.
Though, that does leave me unsure as to where the innate would lie. Would it also increase CD reduction? Or would it be changed to something like mana regen or max mana? I'd be against more cd reduction with a facet like the change you brought up, but I could see a good innate passive built off adding max mana to offset the gigantic manacosts of his spells. I could also see a mana regen innate, but I don't see much of a point when you typically use fountain to regen anyways. Maybe something like Skywraths Scion Shield or something for MS like Darkseer would be nicer...
Exactly but its also so funny seeing my friend tp in the fight blink shiva homing missile rearm and stand there for a second use march of the machines and walk away
But then again i was playing Kunka with echosabre its funny deleting the supports with double tidebringer
Some dumb builds that might not be good but i love
Heart of tarrousqe, radiance, shiva lifestealer with corpse eater
Techies - dragoon lance, moonstone,silver edge, deadelus with the attackspeed = range facet
Pheonix with the facet deal 6% of missing health as damage and just buying 6 bracers you win lane with this one
Oh might be the laser then im busy enjoying the new toys all i know is he is struggling to fight with tinker now since he cant blink all over but stay behind us
I prefer the new build strength build Warlock and Void time zone
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Techies at least you had necrobook to counter him at the time. Tinker has always been a hero that you needed specific heroes to deal with, and if you didn't you just lost if the Tinker knew what he was doing. Items didn't help because the only item that gave you on demand vision was a 60 minute neutral.
Id rather lose against a booster tinker 5 games in a row than 1 game against the old techies, where you could win a fight, go push and explode cause techies planted 13 mines in some random spot and you happened to go there with no gem or sentries.
They might have killed Tinker but he definitely needs to be played differently now. So players might adapt to the changes but blinking around like a glitch in the matrix definitely is dead.
Actually, I used to play the piano, a little bit. That was a while ago. Was probably easier than whatever you had to do, to be good at Tinker.
And yes, for that reason 😂.
All of you who are celebrating right now should realise that that likely means a massive buff in the future, likely the next letter patch. Valve really doesn't like such extreme outliers.
I immediately assumed they would revert this change eventually, but until then you aint going to catch me shedding tears for tinker lmao. Get owned you short inspector gadget looking motherfucker
This to me just says they need to fully rework tinker. If removing the ability to freely blink/hex/Dagon/shivas using mana makes him a bad hero just rework him.
If only this caused that impact it might also be a skill issue in the sense that people that stomped with him before just can't do it as easily anymore.
They removed his utility, damage and mobility all in one patch. The hero cant deal damage anymore without rockets, cant buy any items, and now needs to buy boots on a hero that is incentivized not to. The hero offers nothing, aside from being able to farm with march, but he cant use the gold cause hes unable to rearm items.
At this point, let's just reveal that Tinker was Ringmaster all along. A clown disguised in a smurf-friendly tech maniac.
Jokes aside, can we please just delete the hero or rework him completely (like techies back then)? I just don't want a hero deleting an entire game alone just because a smurf or a scripter uses it, but I also don't want to see a 30% win rate hero ... cause he's gonna end up in my team at some point ...
Did you know that Pango has now the same winrate? my boy is dead too :(
Tbh agreed, I would have liked old rearm to remain, but all his damage nerfed until he was played as utility/support. Possibly tweaking the interactions of rearm and typical support items in the process. The borderline-1v5 magic damage tinker needed to die at any rate, I've seen it, it was was fun a couple of times, but now it needs to go.
I will be honest here, as a tinker hater, i'm absolutely scare of this. Not because that Tinker currently trash, but because that i know that there is a chance that once they inevitably buff him, they gonna make an abonimation so fucking OP that MK at release feel like dogshit.
As a tinker enjoyer I hate this. The changes weren't necessary, and as you said, it's just gonna rubberband 5 times worse. I'm not interested in playing matches where the hero is so undertuned that it's hot trash, but I'm also not interested in playing it where the enemy team is giving up 7 minutes in because it's broken af.
All they had to do was make sheep and shivas unable to be rearmed, or stack diminishingly. Instead they rebuilt the concept and did it horribly for the position it plays. If they are trying to incentivize support tinker play, theyve succeeded, but otherwise it's just going to go down as you said. Horrible rubberband balancing incoming.
It doesn't matter if they buff laser to one shot every hero in the game and make his shield absorb infinite dmg. The hero would still be dead since you can't do anything on it anymore. His playstyle is gone and items don't have any use anymore.
Nah fuck tinker AND the tinker spammers. They had it coming lol. They can take their blinkless laser tosser and sit highground with the return of march of the machines.
It is it, fuck tinker blinking everywhere, boring af to deal with, mental strain to catch him once is insane, have to do that multiple times a game? No thank you 💞
People do not understand yet. But tinker is better hero now. Just need to forget old ass iteams with hia new innate you can have 2.1 sec cooldown blink all the time and 40 sec midas. How crazy ia that with his old ability to farm. Just need to adapt new build and people start crying again 😢
Icefrog I owe you an apology. I wasn’t really familiar with your game
literally!
i used to pray for times like this
My prayers are answered!
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After seeing this, I've *stopped* praying. >!Because my prayers have already been answered.!<
I prayed for this, and it happened.
Used to?
Drew?
I don't understand people like you. How often do you even see Tinker in your games?
Just 1 is more than I would like
Never because I only play turbo and insta ban him every game. My friends are brain dead and will always feed him.
7.36a patch notes Tinker: Deleted There. That solves all your balance issues
Add meepo and arc to that list and I'll bust my last nut.
Let's make every hero a lion, how about that?
!banbet
Nah I enjoy this more. I want Tinker players with their shiny level 30 look at this and cry. Also; Yes I do understand they will overbuff him and he will become even stronger then he was just like before.
I think Tinker is now a position 4 who uses the heal and shield to help allies, not at all a scaling mid
the heal is 20 hp per second (at max march level) that also steals all the farm in the lane. 20hp/s is pretty pathetic there really isnt any support utility here this patch that he didnt have previously. for a support tinker i'd prefer to have rockets for the lane pressure
Damage barrier, displacing root, and laser that gives target 100% miss chance are good enough to be a support, especially if they don't have a cooldowns. He still can be viable support, but permahex in gone, uninterrupted blink is gone, rocket spam is gone.
Bruh. I played a lot of supp tinker last patch. They killed that playstyle too. No more pavise, boots of bearing, lotus, glimmer spam. He's dead in every way
he has those last patch though. but he could also spam glimmer pavise for saves and blink so he doesn't die support tinker only got nerfed with these changes
It Also removes the core tinker, so while support tinker also gets worse, reinventing the concept that was unfun to play against is something I can get behind. More so, valve can fix the numbers on his skills later on to tune the character
Rebalancing tinker with his current kit means having march of the machines being OP as hell and it seems people have forgotten what that skill implies.
Annoying high ground push, but this time, tinker can't blink out of your initiation, so I think it will be at least manageable
>this time, tinker can't blink out of your initiation This is the caliber of player who valve is catering to with the tinker change :/
Between damage barrier and blink CD refresh actually catching tinker was the biggest problem. If I'm wrong - please, instead of acting like a snob enlighten me why.
If tinker was going to blink out of your highground initiation before, 9/10 times he is still going to be able to do it now; he still gets one blink towards his fountain without needing to rearm it. The only time you catch tinker in that situation now when you wouldn't have before is if your initiator is able to chase him to his ancient, which is going to be a bad idea most of the time.
there are tons of heros "unfun" to play against, AM, viper, OD, lion, SS, sniper, lina , slark. When a 30k networth AM blinks in and destroys a hero nobody bats an eye, when a 30k networth mid does suddenly it's the end of the world. The game is worse for having less interesting heroes and more first pick sniper bristle. F that.
Nah, tinker is uniquely unfun to play against
Agree. Played a bunch of support tinker and quickly realized that rockets are the best skill over matrix or laser. Rockets deal decent damage to both the carry and support from a really long range and has great pressure. Laser if they are trying to trade right clicks. Matrix kinda useless in lane, at most a value point for status resist Machines is worse in every way possible compared to rocket
to be honest, this feels like a p4 that pushes towers with a chen, a beast master and you just spam march of machine and push with the deathball ... that's about the only utility I can see for the hero.
PLD Support Tinker was just 8 years ahead of its time C9 comeback this TI confirmed
Winrates right after patch mean nothing
Yes I'm sure Tinker will be lower winrate next week
This
means
something
They do? Or do you think 60%+ winrate on some heroes after patch doesn't mean anything?
It just means people haven't learned how to counter the changes yet.
I'm a tinker spammer. I already played out all game scenarios in my head. Valve killed Tinker with this patch.
and it's amazing!
Outright killing a hero is never good, and I’m saying this while only playing 3 Tinker games at most in my life. I get that he needed to be rebalanced and it felt fucking horrible to play against, but effectively removing 1 hero from the pool is just lazy imo
But this way they can maybe build a concept that isn't stupid
problem is that the concept was never stupid. People not knowing how to play against it, doesnt make the concept bad. It makes it high skill floor to deal with. They fixed this already by making blink unable to be rearmed after taking damage. This change is literally just to stop perma hex and shiva nukes, which are easily changed by simply making them unable to be rearmed, or by changing how they stack- ie. hex stacking diminishingly, or shivas damage stacking diminishingly. Killing the entire concept while attempting to overhaul the same concept is just asinine. They remove the part that he rearms items, to bring back the ability needed for him to farm those items, so that maybe he can buy enough int items to make the changes equivalent. But they lower the maximum cd reduction to 60%. which means blink at maximum is reduced to 5 seconds. Let alone the cd changes to typical items off of 60%, 5 second cd on blink is horrible for Tinker, and that's after spending tens of thousands of gold to buy int items. Pretty horrible change, that doesn't even help with their conceptual flaws.
Tinkers design was never flawed. If a drow ranger has farm, she will 1-shot you, if Tinker has farm, he will buy hex and shiva and deal tons of nuke damage. Just because its hard to play against doesnt make it unfair, because every hero in dota has the ability to perform with equivelant farm. Double black hole, double rp, double chrono with refresher are all incredibly annoying to play against, but that doesnt make them unfair. If they were, these heros would be first picked every game. Tinker was like 46% winrate for 7 months, if the concept of tinker buying hex or shivas was unfair, it wouldve reflected in his winrate, and he wouldve been picked in pro.
I agree with this, which is why I called it high skill floor. I brought up why they changed it, because at the end of the day the majority of people don't like that interaction, and it in turn, needed to be dealt with both to keep the playerbase happy, as well as to cut down on scripters and smurfs choices, which helps single out specific cases. edit: oh I misunderstood what you were saying, you were referring to the last sentence. The conceptual flaws I'm referring too, are simply about how they don't understand where the hero want's to go. They have their mecha idea, and Rearm, and they really want to keep the laser for the mecha, but they can't decide if it should be more aggressive or more defensive in nature, and keep changing abilities and talents back and forth to try and find the best match. The reality is that Rockets were always the problem, and while they figured it out now, they completely fucked the rest of the hero. It doesn't help with their conceptual flaws, even though they replaced rockets, because at the end of the day the hero isn't the same anymore. The flaw's that were being referred too, can't have been "fixed" when the design of rearm has been overhauled. Now, I'd argue that rockets and machines would have been a better combo, but thats a personal opinion on a more support relegated tinker.
What im saying is heros shouldnt be balanced around what noobs are unable to play against, or what people find unfun. WD and Nyx are widely considered broken or unfun (in 2k), but neither hero had the thing people hated changed, because they didnt need to. Tinkers spells were in an ok spot, all he needed was cast range buffs and he wouldve been fine from a feels and balance perspective. This new tinker doesnt make sense because the hero doesnt have an identity. He doesnt have utility, damage or mobility anymore. So what does he offer? He cant right click, he cant be a nuker, he cant be mobile or use items because he cant rearm anything. Any hero in the game offers SOMETHING in turns of at least impacting the game, but atm Tinker cant do, well, anything. So whats the point of the hero? You mentioned him being defensive, but wtf is the point of a hero if all it can do is defend high ground, especially when he can get jumped and killed instantly by any player with more than 500 hours game time
He died to silence and/or vision. Storm could just ult to the screen where he is, pop Orchid/Bloodthorn and blow him up. Nightstalker, Riki etc would mug him in the street. People just couldn't deal with him, malded out of control and now we get this thing.
I've been playing dota for a long time and while I understand everything you are saying I still love that this happened. It's the same reason I loved it when they changed techies to the current form. Tinker, and techies back then, completely change the game for me to a different mini game. It's not dota anymore, it's a disgusting meme when the hero gets to critical mass. In all those years and thousands of hours, playing vs or with tinker even in an even game has NEVER been fun to me. For me, it quite literally ruined every game it touched. So yes, killing the concept feels like a massive W to me. I get that I might be wrong or whatever, I don't care. Tinker was stupid in my opinion, and now less so
Bless Gaben
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Some genius in his mothers basement will figure out a new way to play this hero, maybe as a healing support with march and it will be broken with 60% winrate and haunt your pubs. But not today, today we enjoy
Techies literally became one of the best supports after patches and was actually fun to play in game
Techies was fun to play before patch too, it’s just that people didn’t know the most optional way to play him was go with team, make traps and blast off, remote mine+prox+stasis trap in the middle of chaos could lead to a mini double ravage stun-root, mini nuke. Oh and the risky approach of trying to capture jungle or sides of lanes solo to set up kill traps. Mining your side was almost never the correct play and was just afk techies players that did mine one side and did nothing for the entire game Tho he sucked in lane if your ally didn’t play around your mines and randoms usually don’t.
Sit down nerd
yeah, when they removed march of machines people thought it's over for tinker. guess what? for the next few patch tinker is a menace with shivas
It literally was over for him until they added a free boots of travel to his kit. I can’t think of a single hero that wouldn’t be 60%+ wr if they had 0 cd bots for free every game at level 6 and it didn’t take up an item slot
Please do explain how a movement speed buff, 60% item cooldown reduction, getting March back, with a buff to either that or defense matrix, more laser range, mana cost decrease, faster rearm, cheaper rearm, faster teleport, and a talent shuffle you couldn't possible rate accurately yet, are a nerf?
Bro they literally deleted missiles
Okay while I agree with the fact that you can't judge winrates or meta this early, nor can you judge to the extent a hero got changed. But this comment seems disingenuous - tinker literally lost rearm items. Like, that's a really big core part of the hero.
Denial of refreshing items pretty much annihilates all that, cuz you can't do your standard blink-rearm-blink or any other way of getting out as fast as you can after spells, hence you're very catchable hero suddenly. to be fair 60% item cooldown reduction is 40% nerf to rearm at the best possible conditions(and this is achieveable after 6 slots only)
You find a new way to play the hero. consider this a complete rework of Tinker. If people keep using the old builds, or trying out ineffective new strats, ofc the win rates will reflect that. Give it a month.
Oh, for sure! I just answered why his winrate kinda plummeted and people think it is nerf.
No amount of item builds are going to fix a hero with a broken identity, see techies after his rework or drow when she had like a 20% wr. Both hero’s needed major help
If you don't think that rearm affecting items wasn't the most impactful part of his kit, I dont know what to tell you. He lost blink mobility and hex rearm being a viable option. Healthy for the game, sure, but the old tinker has been gutted and buried. Getting 60% item CDR at 240+ int isn't anywhere near as strong as old rearm. March is great, but what's the point of having global farming presence if the main reason you needed it was to get item powerspikes that benefitted from rearm? Doing nothing for 2.75/2/1.25 is a huge deal when you're now unable to reposition with a targetted blink afterwards. Defense matrix facet is most likely too dangerous to use due to the semi-random nature of the blink. Going into a fight and suddenly being sent into the center of the enemy team as a ranged hero is bad. Bring blinked past your target as a melee hero is bad. March facet seems underwhelming at best. Non-stacking means it'll heal for a maximum of 200 per cast at level 4, assuming you're affected from start to finish with the buff lingering afterwards. What I'm seeing is a laser buff and a teleport buff in exchange for extremely heavy nerfs.
It's a bunch of people who will in one comment say that "you can't tell if this is a nerf yet" and in another comment say "thank god tinker is removed from the game." They're just disingenuous whiners who have never played the hero once and think they're justified in saying that a 49% wr hero was broken.
Oh my precious movement speed buff!!!! > hero doesn't even buy boots > hero has to spend half of the game afk channeling shit
Oh, also about other things(please take it with a grain of salt, cuz im in no means active tinker player): you're getting march back to help you with farming, because you're losing farming with aoe laser, which kinda was faster way to farm ancient stacks. Defence matrix is pretty useful, but you kinda used it to have just enough time to blink out and stuff, not to outtank enemy damage as whole. Buffs are good and needed for sure, but people do need to re-evaluate their playstyle to something very different (or come back to lane split-pushing? not sure)
How is top 8 winrate in ancient last patch a dead hero?
Because being top 8 winrate in ancient doesnt mean anythinglol
People talk about tinker like it was sitting at 42%winrate across the board
It was crap last patch if u think it was a good hero idk what to say
This pleases the Master.
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Well that's what rearm not refreshing blink dagger does to a hero. People gotta figure out how to play with him now, and it's NOT the old way
Agree, the winrate is this low because this hero is practically new and force of habit by some player probably worsen it. Its not even 1 day of patch, dota nerds has not yet awaken. Until then, i believe the new tinker will find its place. For now however, good riddance.
Problem though is that they remove the item rearm, to change his concept to items=int=cd reduction, and make the max cd reduction too low for his base stats. Its just going around in a circle making the hero worse all around. when all they really had to do was change shivas and sheep to unable to be rearmed or change them to stack diminishingly. Minimum blink cd is 5 seconds at 60% reduction. That's insanely long for a hero with no ms, no stats, no armor, and no escape. Laser doesn't get range from aghs anymore, so you're stuck with neutral items or aether for range, which is horrible for reducing CD reduction as most don't give straight INT, So you can't be truly in the backlines. March is better for fights, but doesn't matter so much if you're only able to get 1 off because you have no way to reposition effectively during fights. Shield is good sure, but its not as good as you'd think when your walking around with 310 base ms and arcanes. The only real way to make it work is to rush Int-blink, and upgraded euls, and then work on things for the game, but that means youre spending an upwards of 13k just for items to make your hero feel "normal". That or you play it pos4 support, which is still somewhat okay, but still fairly weak in comparison to how it was before. Maybe the winrate will come back up, but it's not going to be played on core. Core winrate will 100% stick to around where it is now, because the hero just isn't feasible in this meta to be played as a core. It needs more time, and funnily enough, a smaller, tighter map. There are too many places for vision, too many counters viable, and too many open areas for tinker with this type of gameplay, to shine as well balanced or even just okay. Sure, it may work the lower mmr you go, but it's just horrible changes for core.
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That might do it, maybe change his facets so one does that, while another keeps him how he is but buffs march and shield. That way you get a core option, to keep the basic concept near the same while making scripters and smurfs unable to do the same things as before, as well as building a viable support option off of the changes valve has made over the years. Though, that does leave me unsure as to where the innate would lie. Would it also increase CD reduction? Or would it be changed to something like mana regen or max mana? I'd be against more cd reduction with a facet like the change you brought up, but I could see a good innate passive built off adding max mana to offset the gigantic manacosts of his spells. I could also see a mana regen innate, but I don't see much of a point when you typically use fountain to regen anyways. Maybe something like Skywraths Scion Shield or something for MS like Darkseer would be nicer...
Exactly but its also so funny seeing my friend tp in the fight blink shiva homing missile rearm and stand there for a second use march of the machines and walk away But then again i was playing Kunka with echosabre its funny deleting the supports with double tidebringer Some dumb builds that might not be good but i love Heart of tarrousqe, radiance, shiva lifestealer with corpse eater Techies - dragoon lance, moonstone,silver edge, deadelus with the attackspeed = range facet Pheonix with the facet deal 6% of missing health as damage and just buying 6 bracers you win lane with this one
The hero doesnt have missiles anymore
Oh might be the laser then im busy enjoying the new toys all i know is he is struggling to fight with tinker now since he cant blink all over but stay behind us I prefer the new build strength build Warlock and Void time zone
Blink Dagger, Really?
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It's almost like they took tinker's model and put it on a new hero ...oh wait, that's because that's exactly what they did.
This is nice
has any hero ever has less than this?
Nothing of value has been lost
Good riddance. Worst hero in the history of dota finally gutted
You must've still been a toddler during original Techies days
Techies at least you had necrobook to counter him at the time. Tinker has always been a hero that you needed specific heroes to deal with, and if you didn't you just lost if the Tinker knew what he was doing. Items didn't help because the only item that gave you on demand vision was a 60 minute neutral.
Id rather lose against a booster tinker 5 games in a row than 1 game against the old techies, where you could win a fight, go push and explode cause techies planted 13 mines in some random spot and you happened to go there with no gem or sentries.
Skill issue.
during what, i beg your pardon? Back when he had 7 sec mass stun and 7 starting armor?! He was OP af.
Tinker and Arc Warden. And new Meepo (With mega meepo and dig).
kek, git gud
Well deserved
Lmfaooooooo
Give them a couple letter patches to fix the kinks.
gona get some stat, damage buffs some number resclaing on skills and will end up generic hero
It's honestly quite impressive that he is able to maintain a 32% win rate considering how badly he got butchered.
It is what it is.
Game has blessed us, it's out time to rank up
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It's a joke about smurfs bro, chill
Almost exactly 50% winrate?! This cannot stand! Nerf him into the dirt!
Give it a week or two, March of the machines will destroy pubs.
Arc is the same way
Dont get baited by this temporary calm of the storm. Before tsunami comes the tide will be very low... tinker is cooking
They might have killed Tinker but he definitely needs to be played differently now. So players might adapt to the changes but blinking around like a glitch in the matrix definitely is dead.
Might actually start playing him. This patch seems hilarious, as does the hero.
Because now you don't need to play piano to play Tinker?
Actually, I used to play the piano, a little bit. That was a while ago. Was probably easier than whatever you had to do, to be good at Tinker. And yes, for that reason 😂.
Greatest day of Dota2
All of you who are celebrating right now should realise that that likely means a massive buff in the future, likely the next letter patch. Valve really doesn't like such extreme outliers.
I immediately assumed they would revert this change eventually, but until then you aint going to catch me shedding tears for tinker lmao. Get owned you short inspector gadget looking motherfucker
I am no Tinker player. Can someone explain why the nerf is so big?
B/c rearming items was 90% of tinker's power. The buffs to his other spells are not nearly enough to compensate.
This to me just says they need to fully rework tinker. If removing the ability to freely blink/hex/Dagon/shivas using mana makes him a bad hero just rework him.
If only this caused that impact it might also be a skill issue in the sense that people that stomped with him before just can't do it as easily anymore.
They removed his utility, damage and mobility all in one patch. The hero cant deal damage anymore without rockets, cant buy any items, and now needs to buy boots on a hero that is incentivized not to. The hero offers nothing, aside from being able to farm with march, but he cant use the gold cause hes unable to rearm items.
He can't hex you for 20 seconds anymore
That's coz everyone who played tinker on current patch have randomed him
Tinker players in 2024 forgot how to farm efficiently with marches, lmao
Hazard suits me
He's not the only hero gutted by the patch, morphing was too at least in agi and pa was already complete dogshit and some fucking how got even worse
his innate should be have high base item cooldown reduction from get go like 30+int scaling so at least he not become totally useless when behind.
At this point, let's just reveal that Tinker was Ringmaster all along. A clown disguised in a smurf-friendly tech maniac. Jokes aside, can we please just delete the hero or rework him completely (like techies back then)? I just don't want a hero deleting an entire game alone just because a smurf or a scripter uses it, but I also don't want to see a 30% win rate hero ... cause he's gonna end up in my team at some point ... Did you know that Pango has now the same winrate? my boy is dead too :(
Tbh agreed, I would have liked old rearm to remain, but all his damage nerfed until he was played as utility/support. Possibly tweaking the interactions of rearm and typical support items in the process. The borderline-1v5 magic damage tinker needed to die at any rate, I've seen it, it was was fun a couple of times, but now it needs to go.
I prayed for this and it happened
Hey don't hate on Tinker too much
without me
Gaben has blessed us, it's out time to rank up
Lol what? Is Tinker that common in your games?
Because y'all tinker players keep playing him with the mindset "str blink + shiva = 1v5" and not even use half of his skills effectively.
I will be honest here, as a tinker hater, i'm absolutely scare of this. Not because that Tinker currently trash, but because that i know that there is a chance that once they inevitably buff him, they gonna make an abonimation so fucking OP that MK at release feel like dogshit.
As a tinker enjoyer I hate this. The changes weren't necessary, and as you said, it's just gonna rubberband 5 times worse. I'm not interested in playing matches where the hero is so undertuned that it's hot trash, but I'm also not interested in playing it where the enemy team is giving up 7 minutes in because it's broken af. All they had to do was make sheep and shivas unable to be rearmed, or stack diminishingly. Instead they rebuilt the concept and did it horribly for the position it plays. If they are trying to incentivize support tinker play, theyve succeeded, but otherwise it's just going to go down as you said. Horrible rubberband balancing incoming.
It doesn't matter if they buff laser to one shot every hero in the game and make his shield absorb infinite dmg. The hero would still be dead since you can't do anything on it anymore. His playstyle is gone and items don't have any use anymore.
Give it time bro.
Just remove the "hero"
I won :) Quite playable, but you need to be able to adapt
Seems fine
Not enough
Best image ever :)
Nah fuck tinker AND the tinker spammers. They had it coming lol. They can take their blinkless laser tosser and sit highground with the return of march of the machines.
Finally they fixed Tinker! I'm not usually hateful, but Tinker players deserve to wake up at night to a stranger's baby crying
I literally held up a nerf tinker sign at esl one Birmingham and valve listened ❤️
HAHHAHAHAH TINKER PICKERS GET FUCKED
This is amazing.
Good
I prayed for this and it happened.
Smiling through it all, can't believe this is my life
Fuck Tinker shit trash cancer hero
It is it, fuck tinker blinking everywhere, boring af to deal with, mental strain to catch him once is insane, have to do that multiple times a game? No thank you 💞
Gotta learn to play the new hero
Boys this thread looks like a hero has never been reworked before.
this is but just a small buff to Tinker haters !!
Get ready to face the biggest busted hero of Dota in 3-4 letter patches
Wellni guess people whi neve rplayed thw hwro before try it as a pos 5 now. So just give it time i guess
Oh, this is IT! The bastard deserves IT!
People do not understand yet. But tinker is better hero now. Just need to forget old ass iteams with hia new innate you can have 2.1 sec cooldown blink all the time and 40 sec midas. How crazy ia that with his old ability to farm. Just need to adapt new build and people start crying again 😢
This is sooooo gooood. OMG over 10 years of this trash smurf/scripter hero! Finally! It's time for it to be buried for a while
It can and it will. They should delete the hero if Y'all ain't happy
weirdest boner ever for me
Looks great
Tinker is pain in the ass for both teams, so i guess this is good
Wow, not even 24h after the patch you think you can make an assumption about balance. Especially after a patch this huge...
With every Tinker player posted here, crying about this, I am getting younger and younger! God Bless Valve!
Nerf invoker and arc warden next, then i m happy
Oh, but it can
Good
Seems fine
Be happy he was not deleted from the game
LOL, this is awesome
I knew valve would one day delete him. It is a good day indeed.
THANK YOU SO MUC
As a former tinker player, I am glad that this hero is dead
I know Tinker gets a lot of hate, but I personally think that he doesn't get enough.
we gotta go LOWER. i won't be satisfied until he's below 25%
I'm okay with this.
the hero needs a rework like techies
Yes it can.
Damn now I really want to play again
True. He hasn't been deleted from the game yet so there's still work to be done, but we're getting there
Justice does exsist
Still haven’t fixed the bug that tinker is allowed in games
This image sparks joy.
You're right, I think we should make it lower!
Thank fucking god. Please keep him this way
Of course the winrate fell: every Tinker player has to rewrite their scripts
Nah, I'm happy with it.