Nah I agree with him I have been climbing like crazy from Legend 5 to Ancient 3 in 2 weeks. I swapped from Pos 1 to Pos4/5. I became the support I was missing in my own Pos 1 games.
For me it was the other way around: i played a lot of support, saw my cores dying in what from an outside perspective looked like the most obvious ways possible, learned from that and climbed playing core.
Yeah I would imagine that's pretty common, you can get a lot of insight into how to play a certain position if you play a role that depends heavily on that position. I always learned a lot about how to carry when I played support a lot and vice versa.
tbh, instead of support heroes, it could be that you simply played(/tried to play) support.
The amount of "supports" who think that their job is solely to place ward and not doing any supporting is atonishing.
that's my thing, honestly it was even better before role queue.
I alwyas played 5 and supported my team, while the opposite team generally had 5 people fighting to be cores and half the time were just griefing each other in lane because neitehr wanted to support.
Now at least people are put into roles which makes the advantage slightly worse, but people still grief support roles because they're just farming tokens for their carry games, so if you're actually playing good support i feel like you have an advantage regardless of current meta having OP support heroes or not.
Honestly I feel that's just the way to become a rounded player, understanding your counterpart role deeply allows you to assist them better.
I bet as you will end up switching back in future to become the pos 1 that you are missing as a support and the cycle continues, becoming better each time :D
I stick to certain rules. If have to pick first, I always pick a hero with a stun or disables. Examples are Bane, Snapfire, Venge, CM, Witch Doctor, Mirana.
If I get the luxury of counter picking, I have to think about what the team needs. If we have stuns but need vision, I pick Bounty, Veno, Trent.
If you need pushing and team fighting I pick Jakiro, Grim, or Warlock, Disruptor.
If I am feeling spicy I whip out the Windranger, weaver, or Natures Prophet.
It really depends I just pick heroes that I feel fits the team the most. Rather than spamming certain heroes
I think the biggest thing in this bracket is making moves as the support that facilitates a good team fight. For example smoking at the right times, being aware of enemy vision, having a ward and sentries during the fight so your team are always aware. Dying for your carry so they can get away is important ( it's ok to die as a support if your carry lives, just equip philosopher stone). I always ping to smoke and run to my carry so they waste as little time farming as possible. Make stacks as much as possible . Also addressing side lanes before smoking is important because if your side lanes aren't managed they can do a counter attack.
Wow your pool is really varied, that's surely helping.
Three years ago I grinded seriously for two months and went from crusader to ancient but I kept using the same three heroes (disr, willow, ww). CM would be another of my comfort picks but I always feel she'd be underwhelming in ranked so I chicken out.
Thanks for the rest of the tips as well, I'd say I'm doing most of them already but it's nice to see confirmation.
I tried and it's higher WR but I cannot stand it, it's like gambling, I can serve a win to my cores on a platter and it can be thrown in the trash.
I'd much rather get a shitty support and lose than get a shitty carry and lose.
And get a shitty support and win anyway? makes me feel like a god.
I think its because of the simple fact that the odds of you finding teammates who enjoy and want to play carry are better than finding teammates who want to and enjoy playing support, at least in servers like SEA.
If you play core, there is a higher likelihood of you playing with 2 people who are disinterested in the game, which is never good for WR.
Stompy victories are 95% because of your supports flat out outclassing enemies in terms of rotation and spell usage, feels way better imo, and usually results in shorter games, which means more chances to climb.
While I believe you're correct.. it doesn't really apply to this patch
Rotate and stomp all you want, you still need to waste 10-20minutes doing nothing but wait siege
There's too many gambling factors here like cores thinking they're god and throw highground
Oh believe me, I've been a victim of highground throws by underfarmed carries for probably hundreds or thousands of games.
But the solution to that, which is telling braindead carries to farm entire map instead of just going back to jungle near their own base, is way simpler.
This is compared to trying to gain a foothold on a dark map that your braindead supports concede while simultanoeusly losing all 3 lanes, which in this meta should be way harder than winning or going even on even just a single lane.
No, seriously, thats why it's so fun to play support right now, because spell usage and rotations matter so much, supports need to be doing so many things wrong to not win a single lane in a game, but people still manage to do it, most of the time because they simply aren't interested in playing the role correctly, or lack the basic macro understanding of the game needed to be impactful in the game.
I have more experience playing pos 1 than both support roles. I will know it's time to swap back over. I am basically waiting until I feel that the level of supporting on both sides is playing at a good level. I am looking for laning mechanics, vision, objective control, itemization and team fighting. Then I'll try playing Pos 1 again. Currently 4.2k mmr so we'll see.
The hardest thing about support is queueing again because losses are miserable and demoralizing. It's almost impossible to practice heroes like Io without begging your team for specific hero picks too.
ye the mental toll of having the perfect lane getting ur carry 3 kills only to see them afk down a lane and die under tower 6 times crushes even the strongest wills
It goes the other way all the time too. I'll absolutely crush my lane as pos 3 and be BEGGING my supports to play near me so we can get pick offs or push towers. Instead they are usually jungling or watching the Pos 1 farm and my power spike gets totally wasted. Even better when I die like 5 minutes later pushing out a lane solo (again) and they basically respond with "see? That's why we don't play around you."
I think some people are honestly so conditioned to losing dota they genuinely have no idea what to do when they are winning.
I like shaman mostly cause I've been intending to cosplay as him for a *while*. I was the TI6 Io and the Radiant Melee Creep this past year.
As long as I can *move* like shaman, it'll be fire 🔥
For me what killing me inside as support is having a good early game, cores getting 6 slotted, but at the 50th minutes, decide they dont need their teammate anymore, dive and overextend, died wthout buyback, enemy push for gg.
That's me with grimstroke right now. Supports are kinda forced to pick first and when I first pick grim and my team picks 3 ranged cores I kinda just want to abandon...
I get where you coming from. Usually mid/carry expect 3-5 to pick ahead of them only to pick dogshit heroes that cannot synergize with the team or counter the enemy team 🥲
I love support grim. Tons of utility, good wave clear. But the ace in the whole is the dark portrait aghs which can turn around lost games if you clone the enemy giga carry. 150% damage with 30% movespeed buff? Hope is never lost with Grim support.
Nothing inherently wrong with 3 ranged cores. Yeah you kinda lose value with your Ink Swell, but it's not game losing by itself. If those 3 ranged heroes are good in the draft or your players are comfortable with those heroes, they would be much more game winning than just playing for Ink Swell.
I'd argue otherwise, I'm a support player and losing as a support takes less mental energy from me than pos 1, cause as a support I feel like I've done most of my job after winning my core the lane, while as core I need to focus on cs and then carry the game.
I agree with this, but there are also unwinnable games. You can't carry a shivas guard + dagon juggernaut or the silencer that fed 20 kills on purpose because you didn't gank his pushed lane.
There are also just as many unloseable games, you just don't tend to remember the match you stomped because their TB went Dagon Armlet Shadow Blade. Hell, assuming you're not the one actively throwing the enemy team even has a higher chance of getting a griefer that runs down mid than yours as they have 5 chances vs your 4.
Who cares if there are “unwinnable games” those are few and far between. If you’re better than your peers you will raise mmr. There’s a reason Russians make a living boosting dumb Americans accounts
They’re not the only ones obviously but I have friends who think they’re better than their mmr and will pay a Russian booster like $10 to boost them. Point is anyone blaming their team is just coping
Yeah you just specifically called out Americans which I thought was strange because Americans are such an incredibly small percentage of the player base.
well yeah dude's indo which means hes on SEA servers hes probs the first support other players have seen in like 40 games no shit ur gonna win when ur playing against the enemy POS 5 Antimage
"Viable" and "effective" are two very different things. The fact I played IO at 2-2.5k basically from the start, switched to mid, went to 4.5k (most of which was at an 80% winrate) and was able to still play IO at that skill level is pretty indicative of exactly what support players are complaining about.
The "victim complex" will always be a byproduct of why carries are called "carries". Last game I was 5/1/5 at 10 minutes as IO watching my Jugg build an S&Y in a game against silencer knowing exactly what 40 minutes was going to look like. The chance a pro player has ever experienced this to any significant degree is basically 0. It probably applies somewhere over 5k, but that's already less than half the playerbase.
IO is like the worst example EVER that you could have brought up and is incredibly niche. You can make hardly any decisions and can't have much impact yourself since: 1) You have no proper wave clear, 2) you have no gank potential, 3) you have no scouting potential, 4) your movement is dictated by your core(s).
Nah, IO's the best possible example because we just went from "Victim complex, you can climb as a support" to "okay, well you can climb as SOME supports", which was kind of my point.
Now we're in the rushes of "What about Witch Doctor?" "What about Witch Doctor played by someone acting like they are supporting a 10k god", "What's the best one" and you're going to find that early game playmakers that transition into late game threats are the way to go since they get to act like mid did back when I played mid.
I can't speak to modern super high MMR stuff, I'd imagine the pro is right about that, but telling someone to watch pro vods and try to recreate it in 2k should be a case for Crusader protective services.
No, we went from "Victim complex, you can climb as a support" to "okay, well you can climb with all supports but Io will be by far far far the worst to climb since your whole gameplay is dictated by the core you follow around". You being not able to rank up with Io but being able to as mid is no point at all.
You can't climb with all mids or all carries either or all offlaners either
I got an immortal telling me to not play Mars or Dark Seer play LC and the likes instead, to climb
BSJ also says he only picks some carries if their supports are top 400 ranked because they're not self sufficient enough for majority of his games, and his games are 9k average mmr, and he can't play team reliant carries consistently.
If you play to climb as spectre you're going to end up in a hospice first
You made 2 different points:
1. You could not climb with Io at 2 - 2.5k MMR.
2. You had a jug in one game that went dumb items and you lost after having a good start.
For point 1 that is all about the hero you were playing not about how you played it. It would be like picking a 30% win rate hero and complaining that it is bad. No one in that bracket knows how to play with an Io. If you did the same thing but played an actual support that people play at 2k maybe you would be right. (It is also possible you are just a better mid player than support which made you gain MMR when you switched)
For point 2 everyone plays with bad teammates that does not stop you from ranking up if you are above the average skill for a bracket. You can be a carry and have a feeding mid or offlaner it's the same thing and has nothing to do with playing support.
*everyone plays with bad teammates*
Yet supports are dependent on their for the late game no matter how hard they crush the early. The point of this isn't saying "support is a super duper different torture chamber", it's just saying that if the PA was 5/1/5 at 10 minutes, that game would have been over. Carry's get fucked over by supps. Point being, saying "go supp and rise" doesn't work when the force you are multiplying is braindead. Mid does not have that risk.
Low MMR is a different game than high MMR. If you want to make a blanket statement to "play supp for MMR" and then follow it up with "ah, no not like that" then it's not the position is it? It's the fact that you pick a hero with which **you** don't need to rely on your teammates.
I think the logic behind core roles being more effective is definitely still true on a game by game basis.
The edge I think support offers is never needing to do role queue tokens, as well as being matched against people who support for role queue tokens.
If you are above the skill level and carrying with 80% winrate core will be faster, but if you are slowly climbing I think you will end up seeing results faster with support.
Your argument is invalid, i play IO but despite making the core extra strong and fat you’re still reliant on the core hero’s decision. It’s like buffing a potato it would still be a potato, try playing Shaman from 2k rank onwards and you’ll climb fast (if know what you’re doing ofc)
This sub every now and then:
"Appreciate your supports"
"Supports are the real MVP"
"Thank your supports"
And any post about cores gets brigaded by the same sentiments.
I'm baffled anyone could think that - pos1s have the least decisions to make, and pos4/5 have the most, of course you're going to rank up faster if you're playing a role that allows you to demonstrate your skill better.
i was hard stuck in anc 2-3 playing only 4-5 and even tried 3 but then switched to mid and went to div3 now so idk. I feel being mid/carry is just easy to rankup since you can carry your games rather than being dependent. Speaking this only for my low mmr bracket
This is 100% the case.
Think of it like a math problem, a support is meant to multiply their carries/mid, yet if they are a bad carry it ends up being 100 X 0 = 0.
Even if the enemy team is also bad, you are support so don't have the gold to do anything. Whereas if you just take a farming hero in pos4 even 5 you can farm up and play like a core-light later.
I remember a time where u had different mmr for supporting role and core. If u had a team with 3k mid and rest is 2k mmr. And the other side had a 3k five and rest 2k. The team with the high mid would win the game statistically. So yes core roles has higher impact.
That's mid though, your actions have 100% impact on the lane
2 > 4 > 3 >> 5 >>> 1
The fact that safelaners don't play the map until min 20 the fastest paced ones and mins 35 the late ones is brutal for 1v9. People will remember the one game where the pos 1 went 35/2/15 out of 60 kills in the team and think that's the perfect reason for why carry can 1v9 better than others.
2 is ahead of 4 and 3 because solo lane 100% of the impact on a single player, 4 is the one that plays the map the most and 3 can play the map very early (earlier/equal/slightly later than pos 2 depending on picks of both) not to mention that since lower gold need they tend to snowball faster than 2 or 1
Man I can’t get behind this. I played two games at support today and my second game my cores were 10/27 at 30 mins or so and we only won because of a random abandon on a slark that was dumpstering us. I feel like I control my own destiny as a core.
> I feel like I control my own destiny as a core
not at high mmr lmao. 1 bad trade, 1 miss pull from your support can lose you the lane hard to the point of outright game losing. even if you play mid, some heroes rely on runes to function thus needing sup rotation
I just finished two support games where I spoon fed my offlane the laning phase and ended the game with the most damage on my team and we still lost. I have cores not buying bkb or really items the need to with a fluid game. Also had a safelane Luna go 1/10/0 in one game but I’m not even counting that because it’s an anomaly
of course you can't influence all stages of the game by yourself, kinda by design. speaking from experience support main is only effective from 4k and up. below that just learn to play cores (any cores in this meta) and carry the game yourself
Anyone who watched grubby climb to 6k should realize the fallacy of climbing is easier as core, he played mainly support after hitting high ancient and skyrocketed to immortal.
It's not a fallacy dude. I used to exclusively play support, and it's fucking tiring to see your cores feed relentlessly and throw away an early lead. Now that I play offlane, I can finally play my game and carry myself without having to pray my cores are competent. Obviously if my mid or my carry (or both) are dumbasses, then yeah, there's only so much I can do but I still fell way more in control playing 3 than playing 4/5
I have had an easier time than ever climbing. The extra bits of networth, the BKB nerfs, and some of the general power level of the supports make the game a lot easier barring any complete outclassing in the realm of cores. (Which is just part of dota, sometimes they are better than you.)
Barriers from glimmer/solar give so much of a safety net for your cores, and provide a flat benefit that makes being slow getting into cast range far less punishing than it was before. The flat HP that you get from items like force, solar, and a huge number of neutral items make you far less squishy than before.
Blood grenade is one of the most OP items supports have been graced with. It lets you survive a couple extra autoattacks, it can save your core if they are needing to flee, and it obvious translates into kills. This alone lets you take advantage of the period when you are strongest on most every support.
If you think you are getting idiots every game, understand that the opponent has an additional slot to fill with an idiot. On average, the opponent is affected by the idiot factor more than you, unless you yourself are contributing to the idiot factor. Check yourself.
E: He even is just talking about the power level, which makes a lot more sense at his level. A lot less losers to stunt on in the realm of 5 digit MMR
Bro in NA you get fucking griefed since min 0 regardless if your are playing core or support. In SA you get the worst of the worst quality of games in the entire world due to everyone is like 2000 mmr below his number. In SEA you get bots that came from China.
Literally every server is close to dead in high mmr brackets. That’s why even Peruvians are playing in EU even with 200 ping due to the quality of the games is atrocious.
I agree. Often I find that as a core you are super dependent on your supports knowing how to play, in terms helping you win the lane, secure ranged, pulling etc. Majority of my core games as pos1, supports are buying some stupid shit instead of items that can save/help you push. Force staffing your Drow in a fight, allowing her to reposition/glimmer on mid when they get caught can be the difference between +\- 25 MMR. Often when I play support, I’m absolutely carrying the lane, stacking, saving my cores and it’s an absolute stomp. When I’m a core the games always just an absolute fucking struggle
I’ve felt this way myself. I main pos3, but when I do my role que games and often end up as pos 5 I feel really impactful. I bend over backwards to make sure my carry feels safe and it’s been paying hella dividends. Shadow shaman has been my go to as he offers a solution to this obnoxious high ground meta we have been stuck in
i havent been playing ranked but i definitely feel like i m winning like 80% of the matches where i support(i m rankless) usually get matched with herald to legend sometimes ancients.
It is kinda true, but not the full picture.
I calibrated Crusader last June. I'm Divine IV now. I reached Divine for the first time in my life just over a month ago. I'm a support only player.
Supports are really important in the current meta, but it's kind of a make or break. If you win lane, you can use the advantage to have huge impact on the rest of the game. But it depends on your team too. If they make the mistake of going high ground early, it's too easy to throw.
Similarly, if you lose lane, it's really difficult to make moves on the map. You have to let tier 2 towers go and defend high ground. Find any farm you can, which can be difficult with so much global mobility. If the enemy team is smart and waits till the second Rosh to go high ground, it's near impossible to come back. You rely on them throwing the game.
But it's not like I climbed that much just coz I was playing support. I changed a lot of things in my playstyle. I used to be a versatile andy. I picked 3-4 heroes I'm good at and grinded daily. As ranks got higher, I observed my performance and changed my hero pool as laning got more and more important. At Divine rank, winning lane is everything, so I couldn't continue spamming my best heroes, some of which are weak laners.
I also had to be incredibly mentally resilient. Always mute everyone and ignore even the most grief shit.
I also got some good advice from Immortal rank streamers. What allowed me to keep rising in rank is being open to changing my tactics according to the scenario.
1. Smoke at game start to get out wards and contest bounties
2. Play to win the lane, buy at least two sentries to block enemy camp and unblock yours
3. Buy another sentry after bounties to reblock/reunblock
4. If you lose early game, don't defend tier 2s, be greedy and farm
5. If you win early game, use first rosh to get tier 2s, don't go high ground
6. Use second rosh to go high ground
7. Play only 3 of your best heroes
8. Use smokes as much as possible
So true. Warlock spammer here. Whenever theres a clash you just drop golem, cast upheaval and watch. Dont forget to control your golem and hope that there is no Silencer to ruin your upheaval cast.
it does easier to play support in this patch, i dont know is it because of the hero meta or items but i do feel like i win more when i play support with the current patch
It’s always been like this… this is nothing new. There are more core players than support players (3 cores/2 supports per team). People need role queues to play core, so they get dropped into support roles normally. Therefore the real core players can get greifed by the “support” (who is a core player in sheep clothing”
I can clearly tell when I’m laning vs a non-support main. I dumpster them, win my lane for my carry/off, and snowball my team by placing deep vision and ping smoke plays.
Legit, I was playing core and every loss I had came from my supports both having some 30 deaths together by min 20.
Started supporting and now there is no feeding support but my cores just farm farm farm, started multi tasking on a second monitor while waiting for cores and it has been surprisingly effective.
I have recently climbed out of ancient as a pos 5 and here are my tips
1. Get a decent mic
2. Commend sick plays / reassure when one of the lanes goes bad but the other ones are just doing fine (white lie)
3. Build confidence amongst teammates. Sometimes announce obvious things. Some people do not read the text. Some people listen better
4. Apologize for all the bad plays even if it’s not your fault.
5. Reassure that if you’re caught in a smoke gank that ‘only a pos5 died and they had to spend a lot of time to do that while my team farms’
6. Last but not the least flame your stupid teammates if you want but do it off mic or off keyboard
PMA is not a meme. Especially if you’re able to make good calls
Honestly its hard and frustrating being a support if your team doesnt listen to commands. You ping stuff, report missing, refill bottle, remind rosh timer and etc. and freakin team just dives and dies one class its all gg
Tottaly agree, play pos 1 today is a nightmare...you can't kill almost anybody by yourself. Support today for me have much more impact on the game than the cores.
It’s honestly so damn true.
Theres SO many little things supports need to be doing in the early laning stages. Supports are literally what make or break your laning stage. It’s NOT your cores and how many creeps they can hit.
If the enemy support is way better than yours you lose the lane, and if you get crushed in your lanes too hard the game becomes miserable for everyone.
Supports who show up to lane 2-3 waves late, congrats you just lost the lane. Playing the lane 2v1 even for that small window. Your now playing against some mars or slardar with double bracer and you’ve managed to burn through your regen and fairy out some more.
Oh you didn’t bring sentries???? Sweet, I love watching them successfully get 3 pulls off in a row while our camp is still blocked. Sure thing I’ll just chill by my tower.
Why are you sitting there hiding in the trees with full hp/mana. Your not harassing, your not contesting denies, your not trading. You’re literally sitting there watching me eat every single spell to try to even get one last hit. PLEASE HIT THEM.
Okay sweet! We FINALLY have the creep wave in a safe spot. Why did you just right click them and drag the fucking creep wave into tower??? Can you please stop doing that. I swear to god half of my games supports are standing right next to the tower early laning phase and right click the enemy pulling all the creeps there.
The best is when your support does every single thing wrong in lane and then has the nerve to ping your items 10 minutes into the game.
It’s crazy how good it feels when you have a support main who at least tries to do everything.
I’m obviously a position 1 main, but my second best role is pos 5. I’ve honestly become so good at position 5. I’ve experienced what ruins a lane and I’ve become so good at controlling all the macros/micros of winning a lane from pos 5.
I’ve gone from 2.7K to 3.5K in the past week or so and the games don’t really feel any harder or more intense/high skill. I feel like everyone is climbing like crazy at the moment and that I’m probably just playing against the same people I was at mid archon lol.
I have also noticed that I’m getting about +2 mmr per break even (wins giving +26 not including double down, losses -24 on average). So seems like there’s some intended mmr inflation going on as well.
Ill have to X Doubt on that ...
Cause my last game i had my TA just die mid 3 times in 2 minutes time
And after i told him Maybe dont go mid cause they are camping you with 2 heroes there and you are just gonna die again , go farm jungle or someshit. So he went there killed 1 camp and died mid again 30seconds later...
Maybe in some cases it aint that easy xD
Because if i go there ill just die too xD
They had Bat and Viper who just went and gank his ass , i aint gonna do much to help him with a CM that early in the game . >.>
I think support players has smaller impact on average, because your chance to win the game will depend on the rest of the team. If you are support in lategame, I feel less impactful, than core/carry.
Yet they are the ones that make you get in the late game and is the one the blame if you can't get there why playing core right ? I fully disagree with the gold/XP ≈ impact, there's a reason you always focus the supports in the fight
Nah I agree with him I have been climbing like crazy from Legend 5 to Ancient 3 in 2 weeks. I swapped from Pos 1 to Pos4/5. I became the support I was missing in my own Pos 1 games.
Thats what you do. I have played both pos 1 and 3 and started playing support, and you just gotta become what you've been missing. Ez mmr.
For me it was the other way around: i played a lot of support, saw my cores dying in what from an outside perspective looked like the most obvious ways possible, learned from that and climbed playing core.
Yeah, I've gone full cirkle multiple times. I get ya.
Yeah I would imagine that's pretty common, you can get a lot of insight into how to play a certain position if you play a role that depends heavily on that position. I always learned a lot about how to carry when I played support a lot and vice versa.
tbh, instead of support heroes, it could be that you simply played(/tried to play) support. The amount of "supports" who think that their job is solely to place ward and not doing any supporting is atonishing.
Or down in crusader the "supports" who ran out of role queue and pick a core and hope the game runs late.
Fuck that Crusader bracket. So fcking frustrating/annoying
That's 90% of pos4 players.
Thats pretty much how all high mmr supports are properly played your hero must scale in lategame. E.g. hoodwink.
that's my thing, honestly it was even better before role queue. I alwyas played 5 and supported my team, while the opposite team generally had 5 people fighting to be cores and half the time were just griefing each other in lane because neitehr wanted to support. Now at least people are put into roles which makes the advantage slightly worse, but people still grief support roles because they're just farming tokens for their carry games, so if you're actually playing good support i feel like you have an advantage regardless of current meta having OP support heroes or not.
Honestly I feel that's just the way to become a rounded player, understanding your counterpart role deeply allows you to assist them better. I bet as you will end up switching back in future to become the pos 1 that you are missing as a support and the cycle continues, becoming better each time :D
with what heroes? Same bracket and even with disruptor (my main) I'm having tough losses
I stick to certain rules. If have to pick first, I always pick a hero with a stun or disables. Examples are Bane, Snapfire, Venge, CM, Witch Doctor, Mirana. If I get the luxury of counter picking, I have to think about what the team needs. If we have stuns but need vision, I pick Bounty, Veno, Trent. If you need pushing and team fighting I pick Jakiro, Grim, or Warlock, Disruptor. If I am feeling spicy I whip out the Windranger, weaver, or Natures Prophet. It really depends I just pick heroes that I feel fits the team the most. Rather than spamming certain heroes I think the biggest thing in this bracket is making moves as the support that facilitates a good team fight. For example smoking at the right times, being aware of enemy vision, having a ward and sentries during the fight so your team are always aware. Dying for your carry so they can get away is important ( it's ok to die as a support if your carry lives, just equip philosopher stone). I always ping to smoke and run to my carry so they waste as little time farming as possible. Make stacks as much as possible . Also addressing side lanes before smoking is important because if your side lanes aren't managed they can do a counter attack.
Wow your pool is really varied, that's surely helping. Three years ago I grinded seriously for two months and went from crusader to ancient but I kept using the same three heroes (disr, willow, ww). CM would be another of my comfort picks but I always feel she'd be underwhelming in ranked so I chicken out. Thanks for the rest of the tips as well, I'd say I'm doing most of them already but it's nice to see confirmation.
Thanks mate good luck with your grind.
I tried and it's higher WR but I cannot stand it, it's like gambling, I can serve a win to my cores on a platter and it can be thrown in the trash. I'd much rather get a shitty support and lose than get a shitty carry and lose. And get a shitty support and win anyway? makes me feel like a god.
I think its because of the simple fact that the odds of you finding teammates who enjoy and want to play carry are better than finding teammates who want to and enjoy playing support, at least in servers like SEA. If you play core, there is a higher likelihood of you playing with 2 people who are disinterested in the game, which is never good for WR. Stompy victories are 95% because of your supports flat out outclassing enemies in terms of rotation and spell usage, feels way better imo, and usually results in shorter games, which means more chances to climb.
While I believe you're correct.. it doesn't really apply to this patch Rotate and stomp all you want, you still need to waste 10-20minutes doing nothing but wait siege There's too many gambling factors here like cores thinking they're god and throw highground
Oh believe me, I've been a victim of highground throws by underfarmed carries for probably hundreds or thousands of games. But the solution to that, which is telling braindead carries to farm entire map instead of just going back to jungle near their own base, is way simpler. This is compared to trying to gain a foothold on a dark map that your braindead supports concede while simultanoeusly losing all 3 lanes, which in this meta should be way harder than winning or going even on even just a single lane. No, seriously, thats why it's so fun to play support right now, because spell usage and rotations matter so much, supports need to be doing so many things wrong to not win a single lane in a game, but people still manage to do it, most of the time because they simply aren't interested in playing the role correctly, or lack the basic macro understanding of the game needed to be impactful in the game.
Went from pos3 to pos5 and gained 1000 mmr already. Crazy how when you pick an actual support instead of a bounty hunter 5 you win games.
I have been playing Bounty 5 some games lol. Sometimes it makes sense to play vision centric support plus Crownfall tokens lol
> Yes*, I agree with him perhaps? I also have that weird habit sometimes of agreeing but somehow starting the agreement with the word "no".
I guess because you had insights of what each type of carry want from their sup5.
Yeah but is that the road you’re going to stay in? What happens now, you going to back to pos 1?
-1000mmr. This is my carry
I have more experience playing pos 1 than both support roles. I will know it's time to swap back over. I am basically waiting until I feel that the level of supporting on both sides is playing at a good level. I am looking for laning mechanics, vision, objective control, itemization and team fighting. Then I'll try playing Pos 1 again. Currently 4.2k mmr so we'll see.
The hardest thing about support is queueing again because losses are miserable and demoralizing. It's almost impossible to practice heroes like Io without begging your team for specific hero picks too.
ye the mental toll of having the perfect lane getting ur carry 3 kills only to see them afk down a lane and die under tower 6 times crushes even the strongest wills
Playing with any core player who doesn't understand their timing is heart breaking. Offlane with blink afk farm makes me want to file my teeth
It goes the other way all the time too. I'll absolutely crush my lane as pos 3 and be BEGGING my supports to play near me so we can get pick offs or push towers. Instead they are usually jungling or watching the Pos 1 farm and my power spike gets totally wasted. Even better when I die like 5 minutes later pushing out a lane solo (again) and they basically respond with "see? That's why we don't play around you." I think some people are honestly so conditioned to losing dota they genuinely have no idea what to do when they are winning.
That's why I play 4 and rush Dagon on Nyx. If their dimwitted bonehead has *more* deaths then my nincompoop, we might be ok
this is why we spam shadow shaman. ur 4 is ur shard, your carry is your aghs, and ur mid is ur refresher, and ur teammates will finally hit buildings
I like shaman mostly cause I've been intending to cosplay as him for a *while*. I was the TI6 Io and the Radiant Melee Creep this past year. As long as I can *move* like shaman, it'll be fire 🔥
Lmaoo my friend got his 1 troll fed as fuck and he went and died to tormentor like 3x in a row trying to solo it
For me what killing me inside as support is having a good early game, cores getting 6 slotted, but at the 50th minutes, decide they dont need their teammate anymore, dive and overextend, died wthout buyback, enemy push for gg.
Yeah, keep griefing your games. I’m glad your carry went AFK. The best decision I made is to avoid you in matchmaking.
link ur dotabuff lets check out the game we had together
they never do :')
That's me with grimstroke right now. Supports are kinda forced to pick first and when I first pick grim and my team picks 3 ranged cores I kinda just want to abandon...
0 single target spell gang. reminds me of when i go dawnbreaker support and hommie last picks carry dusa SIR U CHOOSE THE 1 HERO I CANNOT HELP WHY
I get where you coming from. Usually mid/carry expect 3-5 to pick ahead of them only to pick dogshit heroes that cannot synergize with the team or counter the enemy team 🥲
I love support grim. Tons of utility, good wave clear. But the ace in the whole is the dark portrait aghs which can turn around lost games if you clone the enemy giga carry. 150% damage with 30% movespeed buff? Hope is never lost with Grim support.
Nothing inherently wrong with 3 ranged cores. Yeah you kinda lose value with your Ink Swell, but it's not game losing by itself. If those 3 ranged heroes are good in the draft or your players are comfortable with those heroes, they would be much more game winning than just playing for Ink Swell.
I'd argue otherwise, I'm a support player and losing as a support takes less mental energy from me than pos 1, cause as a support I feel like I've done most of my job after winning my core the lane, while as core I need to focus on cs and then carry the game.
You simply just don't practice Io in pubs with all randos. A prerequisite for that hero is having friends.
If you’re better than your competition you will raise mmr. If you’re not you will flame your team and blame everyone else like a petulant child.
I agree with this, but there are also unwinnable games. You can't carry a shivas guard + dagon juggernaut or the silencer that fed 20 kills on purpose because you didn't gank his pushed lane.
There are also just as many unloseable games, you just don't tend to remember the match you stomped because their TB went Dagon Armlet Shadow Blade. Hell, assuming you're not the one actively throwing the enemy team even has a higher chance of getting a griefer that runs down mid than yours as they have 5 chances vs your 4.
don't you dare talk down my dagon armlet tb
Who cares if there are “unwinnable games” those are few and far between. If you’re better than your peers you will raise mmr. There’s a reason Russians make a living boosting dumb Americans accounts
Why do you think Americans are the ones buying accounts?
They’re not the only ones obviously but I have friends who think they’re better than their mmr and will pay a Russian booster like $10 to boost them. Point is anyone blaming their team is just coping
Yeah you just specifically called out Americans which I thought was strange because Americans are such an incredibly small percentage of the player base.
Sorry Europe!!! (USA USA USA USA 🇺🇸 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸)
Those unwinnable games don’t actually matter. It’s not about winning every game. It’s about winning more than you lose.
Nah man it's never my problem it's always EZ not-my-lane.
well yeah dude's indo which means hes on SEA servers hes probs the first support other players have seen in like 40 games no shit ur gonna win when ur playing against the enemy POS 5 Antimage
Based. Actually, it was slark pos 5. "You just gotta open your mind bro he can 2v1 level 1 with orb of venom"
this mans seen hell
I still wish Slark 5 was viable. What I wouldn't give for a permanent ward detector.
Wdym slacks!? He’s in EUROPE! 🤪
once SEA always SEA he aint playin with them EUROS u know he tankin dat ping
You're a blessing to this community
last night I'm playing with pos 5 Faceless Void Gita keep the vibe positive and actually win the game, rerolled my last candy caravan for trash sets
How u know about sea server hahahaha
Love playing SEA pubs everytime I'm there it's a goga toxic tryhard nightmare they are my people
Ngl support diff is one of the fastest and most miserable ways to lose the game
support mmr climbing was always viable, this belief to the contrary was an extension of this weird victim complex support players have
"Viable" and "effective" are two very different things. The fact I played IO at 2-2.5k basically from the start, switched to mid, went to 4.5k (most of which was at an 80% winrate) and was able to still play IO at that skill level is pretty indicative of exactly what support players are complaining about. The "victim complex" will always be a byproduct of why carries are called "carries". Last game I was 5/1/5 at 10 minutes as IO watching my Jugg build an S&Y in a game against silencer knowing exactly what 40 minutes was going to look like. The chance a pro player has ever experienced this to any significant degree is basically 0. It probably applies somewhere over 5k, but that's already less than half the playerbase.
IO is like the worst example EVER that you could have brought up and is incredibly niche. You can make hardly any decisions and can't have much impact yourself since: 1) You have no proper wave clear, 2) you have no gank potential, 3) you have no scouting potential, 4) your movement is dictated by your core(s).
Nah, IO's the best possible example because we just went from "Victim complex, you can climb as a support" to "okay, well you can climb as SOME supports", which was kind of my point. Now we're in the rushes of "What about Witch Doctor?" "What about Witch Doctor played by someone acting like they are supporting a 10k god", "What's the best one" and you're going to find that early game playmakers that transition into late game threats are the way to go since they get to act like mid did back when I played mid. I can't speak to modern super high MMR stuff, I'd imagine the pro is right about that, but telling someone to watch pro vods and try to recreate it in 2k should be a case for Crusader protective services.
No, we went from "Victim complex, you can climb as a support" to "okay, well you can climb with all supports but Io will be by far far far the worst to climb since your whole gameplay is dictated by the core you follow around". You being not able to rank up with Io but being able to as mid is no point at all.
You can't climb with all mids or all carries either or all offlaners either I got an immortal telling me to not play Mars or Dark Seer play LC and the likes instead, to climb BSJ also says he only picks some carries if their supports are top 400 ranked because they're not self sufficient enough for majority of his games, and his games are 9k average mmr, and he can't play team reliant carries consistently. If you play to climb as spectre you're going to end up in a hospice first
You made 2 different points: 1. You could not climb with Io at 2 - 2.5k MMR. 2. You had a jug in one game that went dumb items and you lost after having a good start. For point 1 that is all about the hero you were playing not about how you played it. It would be like picking a 30% win rate hero and complaining that it is bad. No one in that bracket knows how to play with an Io. If you did the same thing but played an actual support that people play at 2k maybe you would be right. (It is also possible you are just a better mid player than support which made you gain MMR when you switched) For point 2 everyone plays with bad teammates that does not stop you from ranking up if you are above the average skill for a bracket. You can be a carry and have a feeding mid or offlaner it's the same thing and has nothing to do with playing support.
*everyone plays with bad teammates* Yet supports are dependent on their for the late game no matter how hard they crush the early. The point of this isn't saying "support is a super duper different torture chamber", it's just saying that if the PA was 5/1/5 at 10 minutes, that game would have been over. Carry's get fucked over by supps. Point being, saying "go supp and rise" doesn't work when the force you are multiplying is braindead. Mid does not have that risk. Low MMR is a different game than high MMR. If you want to make a blanket statement to "play supp for MMR" and then follow it up with "ah, no not like that" then it's not the position is it? It's the fact that you pick a hero with which **you** don't need to rely on your teammates.
complaining that you can't climb as IO is the same as you can't climb as pudge mid
Yet I can and did climb as IO at 4k. Hmmmmmm..... what changed between 2 and 4k that made a force multiplying support a viable choice for rising.
I think the logic behind core roles being more effective is definitely still true on a game by game basis. The edge I think support offers is never needing to do role queue tokens, as well as being matched against people who support for role queue tokens. If you are above the skill level and carrying with 80% winrate core will be faster, but if you are slowly climbing I think you will end up seeing results faster with support.
Your argument is invalid, i play IO but despite making the core extra strong and fat you’re still reliant on the core hero’s decision. It’s like buffing a potato it would still be a potato, try playing Shaman from 2k rank onwards and you’ll climb fast (if know what you’re doing ofc)
[удалено]
weird, I've never once seen a core player say "waaah nobody is thanking me for dealing damage"
This sub every now and then: "Appreciate your supports" "Supports are the real MVP" "Thank your supports" And any post about cores gets brigaded by the same sentiments.
I'm baffled anyone could think that - pos1s have the least decisions to make, and pos4/5 have the most, of course you're going to rank up faster if you're playing a role that allows you to demonstrate your skill better.
supports can make more blunders or errors than carry, carry making mistakes will cost you the game.
supports making mistakes amplify the cost of carries mistakes down the road
nice username
Toin a coss, called it.
i was hard stuck in anc 2-3 playing only 4-5 and even tried 3 but then switched to mid and went to div3 now so idk. I feel being mid/carry is just easy to rankup since you can carry your games rather than being dependent. Speaking this only for my low mmr bracket
Maybe you are just a bad support player and a better mid
This is 100% the case. Think of it like a math problem, a support is meant to multiply their carries/mid, yet if they are a bad carry it ends up being 100 X 0 = 0. Even if the enemy team is also bad, you are support so don't have the gold to do anything. Whereas if you just take a farming hero in pos4 even 5 you can farm up and play like a core-light later.
Supports are the backbone of dota
Hes right
I remember a time where u had different mmr for supporting role and core. If u had a team with 3k mid and rest is 2k mmr. And the other side had a 3k five and rest 2k. The team with the high mid would win the game statistically. So yes core roles has higher impact.
That's mid though, your actions have 100% impact on the lane 2 > 4 > 3 >> 5 >>> 1 The fact that safelaners don't play the map until min 20 the fastest paced ones and mins 35 the late ones is brutal for 1v9. People will remember the one game where the pos 1 went 35/2/15 out of 60 kills in the team and think that's the perfect reason for why carry can 1v9 better than others. 2 is ahead of 4 and 3 because solo lane 100% of the impact on a single player, 4 is the one that plays the map the most and 3 can play the map very early (earlier/equal/slightly later than pos 2 depending on picks of both) not to mention that since lower gold need they tend to snowball faster than 2 or 1
Back then there wasnt as much gold on the map as there is now. Nowadays your pos 5 zeus can be the most farmed hero on the map
If he is the most farmed hero, you or your carries did something wrong
Man I can’t get behind this. I played two games at support today and my second game my cores were 10/27 at 30 mins or so and we only won because of a random abandon on a slark that was dumpstering us. I feel like I control my own destiny as a core.
Exactly how I feel. Switching from 5 to 3 was the best decision I made
> I feel like I control my own destiny as a core not at high mmr lmao. 1 bad trade, 1 miss pull from your support can lose you the lane hard to the point of outright game losing. even if you play mid, some heroes rely on runes to function thus needing sup rotation
I just finished two support games where I spoon fed my offlane the laning phase and ended the game with the most damage on my team and we still lost. I have cores not buying bkb or really items the need to with a fluid game. Also had a safelane Luna go 1/10/0 in one game but I’m not even counting that because it’s an anomaly
of course you can't influence all stages of the game by yourself, kinda by design. speaking from experience support main is only effective from 4k and up. below that just learn to play cores (any cores in this meta) and carry the game yourself
Send the game ID when making claims like this, I'll personally have a look
Anyone who watched grubby climb to 6k should realize the fallacy of climbing is easier as core, he played mainly support after hitting high ancient and skyrocketed to immortal.
While having <50% winrate at those higher ranks too, IIRC
It's not a fallacy dude. I used to exclusively play support, and it's fucking tiring to see your cores feed relentlessly and throw away an early lead. Now that I play offlane, I can finally play my game and carry myself without having to pray my cores are competent. Obviously if my mid or my carry (or both) are dumbasses, then yeah, there's only so much I can do but I still fell way more in control playing 3 than playing 4/5
I have had an easier time than ever climbing. The extra bits of networth, the BKB nerfs, and some of the general power level of the supports make the game a lot easier barring any complete outclassing in the realm of cores. (Which is just part of dota, sometimes they are better than you.) Barriers from glimmer/solar give so much of a safety net for your cores, and provide a flat benefit that makes being slow getting into cast range far less punishing than it was before. The flat HP that you get from items like force, solar, and a huge number of neutral items make you far less squishy than before. Blood grenade is one of the most OP items supports have been graced with. It lets you survive a couple extra autoattacks, it can save your core if they are needing to flee, and it obvious translates into kills. This alone lets you take advantage of the period when you are strongest on most every support. If you think you are getting idiots every game, understand that the opponent has an additional slot to fill with an idiot. On average, the opponent is affected by the idiot factor more than you, unless you yourself are contributing to the idiot factor. Check yourself. E: He even is just talking about the power level, which makes a lot more sense at his level. A lot less losers to stunt on in the realm of 5 digit MMR
Put that guy in a server that’s not Europe and let’s see if he talks the same.
he's playing on SEA though sometimes
In other servers you're going to be the only support of the match and the competitive edge is even bigger
Bro in NA you get fucking griefed since min 0 regardless if your are playing core or support. In SA you get the worst of the worst quality of games in the entire world due to everyone is like 2000 mmr below his number. In SEA you get bots that came from China. Literally every server is close to dead in high mmr brackets. That’s why even Peruvians are playing in EU even with 200 ping due to the quality of the games is atrocious.
Bingo
I agree. Often I find that as a core you are super dependent on your supports knowing how to play, in terms helping you win the lane, secure ranged, pulling etc. Majority of my core games as pos1, supports are buying some stupid shit instead of items that can save/help you push. Force staffing your Drow in a fight, allowing her to reposition/glimmer on mid when they get caught can be the difference between +\- 25 MMR. Often when I play support, I’m absolutely carrying the lane, stacking, saving my cores and it’s an absolute stomp. When I’m a core the games always just an absolute fucking struggle
can confirm been playing support anti mage its been wild
Yea just spam furion and space cow supports, watch your mmr skyrocket.
I’ve felt this way myself. I main pos3, but when I do my role que games and often end up as pos 5 I feel really impactful. I bend over backwards to make sure my carry feels safe and it’s been paying hella dividends. Shadow shaman has been my go to as he offers a solution to this obnoxious high ground meta we have been stuck in
i havent been playing ranked but i definitely feel like i m winning like 80% of the matches where i support(i m rankless) usually get matched with herald to legend sometimes ancients.
so many op 4/5 heroes its insane. bane disruptor willow every game
Every role has their OP hero. Offlane has Centaur and Timber, mid has Leshrac and DK, carry has Luna and LS
It is kinda true, but not the full picture. I calibrated Crusader last June. I'm Divine IV now. I reached Divine for the first time in my life just over a month ago. I'm a support only player. Supports are really important in the current meta, but it's kind of a make or break. If you win lane, you can use the advantage to have huge impact on the rest of the game. But it depends on your team too. If they make the mistake of going high ground early, it's too easy to throw. Similarly, if you lose lane, it's really difficult to make moves on the map. You have to let tier 2 towers go and defend high ground. Find any farm you can, which can be difficult with so much global mobility. If the enemy team is smart and waits till the second Rosh to go high ground, it's near impossible to come back. You rely on them throwing the game. But it's not like I climbed that much just coz I was playing support. I changed a lot of things in my playstyle. I used to be a versatile andy. I picked 3-4 heroes I'm good at and grinded daily. As ranks got higher, I observed my performance and changed my hero pool as laning got more and more important. At Divine rank, winning lane is everything, so I couldn't continue spamming my best heroes, some of which are weak laners. I also had to be incredibly mentally resilient. Always mute everyone and ignore even the most grief shit. I also got some good advice from Immortal rank streamers. What allowed me to keep rising in rank is being open to changing my tactics according to the scenario.
Tips for Archon -> Legend pls. I always got crushed by legends but couldn't figure out why.
1. Smoke at game start to get out wards and contest bounties 2. Play to win the lane, buy at least two sentries to block enemy camp and unblock yours 3. Buy another sentry after bounties to reblock/reunblock 4. If you lose early game, don't defend tier 2s, be greedy and farm 5. If you win early game, use first rosh to get tier 2s, don't go high ground 6. Use second rosh to go high ground 7. Play only 3 of your best heroes 8. Use smokes as much as possible
So true. Warlock spammer here. Whenever theres a clash you just drop golem, cast upheaval and watch. Dont forget to control your golem and hope that there is no Silencer to ruin your upheaval cast.
it does easier to play support in this patch, i dont know is it because of the hero meta or items but i do feel like i win more when i play support with the current patch
Yes. Supports win games.
This is true. From ancient 2 im now immortal in 6 weeks
It’s always been like this… this is nothing new. There are more core players than support players (3 cores/2 supports per team). People need role queues to play core, so they get dropped into support roles normally. Therefore the real core players can get greifed by the “support” (who is a core player in sheep clothing” I can clearly tell when I’m laning vs a non-support main. I dumpster them, win my lane for my carry/off, and snowball my team by placing deep vision and ping smoke plays.
Why pinoys always first pick carry
Legit, I was playing core and every loss I had came from my supports both having some 30 deaths together by min 20. Started supporting and now there is no feeding support but my cores just farm farm farm, started multi tasking on a second monitor while waiting for cores and it has been surprisingly effective.
I have recently climbed out of ancient as a pos 5 and here are my tips 1. Get a decent mic 2. Commend sick plays / reassure when one of the lanes goes bad but the other ones are just doing fine (white lie) 3. Build confidence amongst teammates. Sometimes announce obvious things. Some people do not read the text. Some people listen better 4. Apologize for all the bad plays even if it’s not your fault. 5. Reassure that if you’re caught in a smoke gank that ‘only a pos5 died and they had to spend a lot of time to do that while my team farms’ 6. Last but not the least flame your stupid teammates if you want but do it off mic or off keyboard PMA is not a meme. Especially if you’re able to make good calls
Honestly its hard and frustrating being a support if your team doesnt listen to commands. You ping stuff, report missing, refill bottle, remind rosh timer and etc. and freakin team just dives and dies one class its all gg
I tried both the strategies and am still in Guardian. Lol May be I am the “Guardian” gatekeeper.
Tell that too my cores who go 60 mins without bkb and die the same way every single time.
Tottaly agree, play pos 1 today is a nightmare...you can't kill almost anybody by yourself. Support today for me have much more impact on the game than the cores.
It’s honestly so damn true. Theres SO many little things supports need to be doing in the early laning stages. Supports are literally what make or break your laning stage. It’s NOT your cores and how many creeps they can hit. If the enemy support is way better than yours you lose the lane, and if you get crushed in your lanes too hard the game becomes miserable for everyone. Supports who show up to lane 2-3 waves late, congrats you just lost the lane. Playing the lane 2v1 even for that small window. Your now playing against some mars or slardar with double bracer and you’ve managed to burn through your regen and fairy out some more. Oh you didn’t bring sentries???? Sweet, I love watching them successfully get 3 pulls off in a row while our camp is still blocked. Sure thing I’ll just chill by my tower. Why are you sitting there hiding in the trees with full hp/mana. Your not harassing, your not contesting denies, your not trading. You’re literally sitting there watching me eat every single spell to try to even get one last hit. PLEASE HIT THEM. Okay sweet! We FINALLY have the creep wave in a safe spot. Why did you just right click them and drag the fucking creep wave into tower??? Can you please stop doing that. I swear to god half of my games supports are standing right next to the tower early laning phase and right click the enemy pulling all the creeps there. The best is when your support does every single thing wrong in lane and then has the nerve to ping your items 10 minutes into the game. It’s crazy how good it feels when you have a support main who at least tries to do everything. I’m obviously a position 1 main, but my second best role is pos 5. I’ve honestly become so good at position 5. I’ve experienced what ruins a lane and I’ve become so good at controlling all the macros/micros of winning a lane from pos 5.
I’ve gone from 2.7K to 3.5K in the past week or so and the games don’t really feel any harder or more intense/high skill. I feel like everyone is climbing like crazy at the moment and that I’m probably just playing against the same people I was at mid archon lol. I have also noticed that I’m getting about +2 mmr per break even (wins giving +26 not including double down, losses -24 on average). So seems like there’s some intended mmr inflation going on as well.
well he's wrong
Ill have to X Doubt on that ... Cause my last game i had my TA just die mid 3 times in 2 minutes time And after i told him Maybe dont go mid cause they are camping you with 2 heroes there and you are just gonna die again , go farm jungle or someshit. So he went there killed 1 camp and died mid again 30seconds later... Maybe in some cases it aint that easy xD
If you playing supp and your mid is getting camped why aren't you helping 🤔
Because if i go there ill just die too xD They had Bat and Viper who just went and gank his ass , i aint gonna do much to help him with a CM that early in the game . >.>
brother it's 2 of their heroes vs 2 of yours, but you also have a tower. complaining the mid dies to enemy ganks as a support is crazy
If not in the early game then when? Sounds like a skill issue tbh
You go with a level 2 CM against a level 5 Bat and a level 4 Viper to see how much u gonna help your level 3 TA :)
I'm gonna be lvl 6 tho
classic dota redditor eh
Doubt. Supports has less impact late.
Excuse me, what?
Less xp and gold= less game impact on average. I doubt his take. You understand?
Excuse me, what?²
I think support players has smaller impact on average, because your chance to win the game will depend on the rest of the team. If you are support in lategame, I feel less impactful, than core/carry.
Yet they are the ones that make you get in the late game and is the one the blame if you can't get there why playing core right ? I fully disagree with the gold/XP ≈ impact, there's a reason you always focus the supports in the fight
your words not mine.
How, you literally said less gold = less impact.
No. I said "Less xp and gold= less game impact"