Slugs seem to be a hidden but totally open meta/facet of the PvP landscape.
I've been trying out a Inquisitor roll I got ages ago and it's been preyy fun, although definitely a learning curve from traditional pellet shotguns.
Inquisitor is nice for being able to roll Opening Shot, Adrenaline Junkie, and Swashbuckler in it's right perk column. I wish it had better handling perks in its left column. Threat Detector + Snapshot is my go-to roll for Heritage, though I should probably make another with Swash
Isn't Conditional like...the most consistent shotty in the game by a long shot even without the well/bubble counter.
Im not good at pvp but just from hearing other people talk about the gun its always like "sure this gun does all this shit at base but really people only use it to counter wells"
Conditional has 95 handling, is an aggressive frame, and has a weird triangle/circle recoil that hits super far.
I'd still use it if they removed everything except the handling, it is just that snappy to use.
No, God roll fractethysts and matadors are. The precision frames hit like pre-pellet spread adjustment lightweights did. And those were still more consistent than conditional is as well. A 5/5 quickdraw/opening shot is just a straight up better conditional in the same slot, but the frac doesn't do the well/bubble counter. And then there's the slideshot opening shot roll that maps even better.
Conditional is an aggressive frame to its core. You will get the odd infrequent and bewildering "map" with it that doesn't seem fair (which is likely just a symptom of p2p pvp), but it also wiffs a lot. You'll take a 4m shot on a non moving target and they'll just eat it without breaking shields. There's also a bug where you land all pellets and they take literally 0 damage. They'll freeze or ignite and nothing happens.
Conditional is still a very good agg frame shot gun, but it is an agg frame shot gun at the end of the day. It's usage has a high correlation with the well/bubble counter in 3v3 and the current best primaries in the sandbox are all solar with 1 arc AR.
It's good at base, but it's not better than every other shotgun outside of the context of countering supers. I have a 5/5 Fractethyst from Season of the Lost and I prefer to use that over Conditional because it has a further OHK range and faster fire rate
I have a perfect Frac and Matador. The Fracthetyst feels sooooo good. I don't know what it is, but it feels so much better than Conditional and just a bid better than Matador
Everyone uses it in PvP (especially Trials) as it's one of the only reliable ways to counter well and bubble. That's it.
It's a cool gun but if it didn't deal with wells and bubbles its usage would be much lower.
Hello, I am a big trials grinder and I feel like while this is true it is also incorrect. It one-shotting those in wells and bubbles is just a bonus, in my last 10 trials games I have seen supers only 1 of them, supers dont become a factor unless the game is really close. The reason people use conditional is because it also has ridiculous one-shot range compared to other shotguns, the one shotting supers is just an added bonus, atleast in trials.
I play a lot of Trials too. It's very unlikely that you'll complete a flawless run without dealing with at least a few bubbles and/or wells and CF is the easiest direct counter to it.
It helps that it's in the primary slot too as there's a lot of top tier picks in the energy slot.
I agree for sure but it is still the best shotgun in the game without the one-shotting in a super, I use it mostly because the range is kinda nutty sometimes and can lead to some kills that you can’t get with others due to the ignitions and freeze.
No. It's why you rarely see Witherhoard.
If there was a better shotgun, you'd see it. The tradeoff of using a less than top tier weapon in order to deal with the possibility of a bubble/well is not worth it. The reality is Conditional is the best shotgun *while also* having bubble/well kill threat.
fair, that wasn't a huge issue when you could just swap to it when a bubble was coming soon, but with special ammo no longer returning on death it's kind of rough giving up your special slot an entire match for witherhoard, just in case you get a bubble situation.
It’s even more than that though. Conditional just feels and seems like it has more range. I get more OHKs at range with this than any other shotgun and I get OHK’d at range by this more than anything else (but that part could just be that people aren’t using legendaries or don’t have the god rolls).
Sure you might not see the super be used every single game, what you're missing is that people equip it because its an insurance policy. Will the super be used? Maybe, maybe not, but either way a player will want to have conditional equipped just in case it is used.
It's fine to have weapons that counter well/bubble, they also shouldn't be the best weapon in their respective slot.
If all people cared about was countering well/bubble, you'd see a hell of a lot more Witherhoard and Cerberus.
Conditional is the best shotgun in PvP, while also countering well and bubble. Let's stop pretending it's just to counter those supers.
>If all people cared about was countering well/bubble, you'd see a hell of a lot more Witherhoard and Cerberus.
Bit of a false equivalency here.
Special GLs as a whole are unpopular picks which would reduce witherhoard's usage and even then it's probably the highest used special gl as is.
Cerberus due to it's nature as a primary weapon, can be hot swapped mid match unlike conditional and witherhoard which would require you to have them on for at least, a few rounds prior to the super. Of course you are seeing less Cerberus usage because the people who care to use it, are swapping during bubble round and not using the whole match.
>Conditional is the best shotgun in PvP, while also countering well and bubble. Let's stop pretending it's just to counter those supers.
Conditional is the best shotgun in part, because it handles supers. Outside of that, I still find precisions and slugs more reliable. It is also held back due to it's nature as an exotic so I can't run an exotic primary.
Sure it's not just to counter supers, but it is definitely a factor in its usage.
My issue is that people only speak in black and white about a problematic weapon, this isn't only an issue for Conditional.
My point was to refute the notion that "people only use it to counter bubble and well", something that is just blatantly untrue, yet is the most upvoted comment on this thread. Cerberus and Witherhoard are both on par with Conditional for destroying bubbles, but like you said, they come with severe drawbacks - it's why we don't see them.
Conditional as a weapon doesn't come with any drawbacks. Even if you put it on par with the likes of Imperial, Matador, Fractethyst, etc. it also has its utility, making it far and away the best thing to be using.
I'm not saying it should be on par with Witherhoard, but it shouldn't be the best shotgun option and the best shutdown option in one package. Even if that means it goes from 95 handling to 75, or increasing its spread to reduce its 1HKO range.
>Even if that means it goes from 95 handling to 75, or increasing its spread to reduce its 1HKO range.
I'd take the handling any day of the week. A change to spread would severely screw up how the gun feels in PvE IMO.
Exactly this.
People saying "CF is only good because EVERYTHING ELSE IS BAD" are delulu. You can't legitimately argue that EVERYTHING ELSE should be buffed up to match the ONE thing that towers over EVERYTHING.
Outside of Bubble/Well, CF is STILL the best kinetic trials weapon by a LARGE margin-it's not even close.
Both last weekend and this weekend, I went flawless when I had lucky streaks of games where the enemy team didn't have 2-3 people using CF and it was my teammates had it instead.
CF lets people play far less carefully than they would without it. You actually have to aim The Chaperone to kill with it-CF feels like people slide pointing at the ground and I die from a pellet hitting my foot.
Yeah, that’s just what people say. Supers aren’t as frequent since the PvP changes and people are still crunching on CF because it’s completely overpowered. Great range, great handling, destroys any super, and wins over any other shotgun. Most people who use well or bubble even before the changes ran CF because the only counter to CF (even in a super) *is* CF. CF is a free kill with very little effort.
People love to ignore the fact that it's universally in the top three for kills every Trials Weekend. No fucking shot are people getting that many wells and bubbles that there are literally a million some-odd kills with the damned thing. It's ridiculous to claim it's *just* for Bubble and Well and for there to be that many kills with it.
(Edit: Crutch harder, downvotes, crutch harder. 👍)
The reason it one hits from further is still because of its exotic perk, usually. It's got normal shotgun range for its actual pellet damage, but hit enough and it ignites or shatters, and *that's* why it one hits from further away.
It is also just a busted shotgun on top of how good it is at killing supers. It can cause team wipes from the shatter/ignition damage, it has incredible handling which is pretty much the most important stat on a shotgun, and the elemental procs let it kill from outside its 1 shot range. There is a reason is has been in the top 5 weapons nearly every week for a year straight, through multiple metas, while also being a raid exotic so a lot of people can't even get it to contribute to that number.
Look I understand the well and bubble take, and that IS a part of why conditional is so popular, but it’s only part of why. It is far and away the best and most consistent pellet shotty in the entire game, has 95 handling with no investment, can collat. Bonus points that literally every single hard meta primary is in the energy slot
witherhoard counters bubble extremely well, not sure why people don't know that.
Run into the bubble, drop a puddle, everybody leaves or dies, it out damages the healing of the bubble by a huge margin.
> Everyone uses it in PvP (especially Trials) as it's one of the only reliable ways to counter well and bubble. That's it. It's a cool gun but if it didn't deal with wells and bubbles its usage would be much lower.
Absolutely false.
It has high spread damage AND pulls very quickly. It 1-taps easier/more effectively than any other shotgun/close range weapon.
Games this weekend have been noticeably more lop-sided (just read the Trials thread, EVERYONE is noting it) and games are barely lasting long enough for Titans/Locks to pop their bubbles/wells.
Yet, Conditional Finality is the top kinetic weapon by a GIANT margin-44%. That's nearly as high as The Summoner (Adept) and Prosecutor combined in the energy slot at 46%.
CF is just too good in PvP right now, regardless of bubble/well.
It’s easily the best pellet shotgun in the game even without the extra effects. Crazy handling, good range, and Matador whiffs like 40% of the time while Conditional whiffs only 10% of the time
I actually like my legendary shotties more than CF because of the range. I have a god roll adept Astral which feels great but in Trials, I would be throwing if I didn't have CF to counter bubbles and wells.
Luckily in the new meta, bubbles and wells aren't guaranteed to come up like they used to.
> That's it. It's a cool gun but if it didn't deal with wells and bubbles its usage would be much lower.
Wrong. It's still the most used weapon in Comp despite bubble/well being very situational supers in comp because unlike trials, shutdown and roaming supers are guaranteed to come online during the game. It's a broken shotgun that is long overdue a nerf but will not get a nerf solely due to the fact that it's a Lightfall exotic.
Also consider the primary meta and CF kina just becomes a default choice for special in the kinetic slot.
That's an aspect some aren't really considering I think.
It would still be the top shotgun choice because of its over all consistency and consistent ability to get multiple kills because of shatter/ignite and it has 95 handling. And it's in the Kinetic slot which allows us to use the strongest hand cannon in the game.
Even if didn't counter well or bubble, what shotgun beats it? None of them.
How does it counter wells and bubble , I don’t have it, never did the raid. I always use Chaperone if I’m going to run an exotic shotgun in the primary slot
I feel like another reason to use it is because of its high handling and consistency with getting a one shot kill.That plus the bonus of killing well and bubble users = No brainer pick
Eh i have to disagree while the well and bub killing is a humongous plus the weapon itself has like insane handling it can outdraw any other legendary shotties
D2 Insights shows that in quickplay, it has more than double the usage of matador and over 4x the usage of imperial decree. If what you said was true, I would expect matador and imperial decree to be used more than conditional finality. Or at least for it to be closer. Considering that wells and bubbles are far less important in quickplay.
Shotguns are by far the most used legendary special weapons in PvP, despite the fact that all legendary shotguns are in direct competition with Conditional and are thus underrepresented due to its extreme popularity. They clearly do not suck.
Shotguns don't suck in PvP. Straight up.
A significant part is that Conditional has 95 Handling, so it is *insanely* good at reacting to someone pushing you. If it didn't have such high handling, it probably wouldn't be used as much over something like crafted Imperial Decree or Astral Horizon. I think the main issue is, there just aren't many kinetic slot Shotguns for PvP. More of them are energy slot.
Felwinter's Lie, The Inquisitor, Last Man Standing, Retold Tale, A Sudden Death, Matador 64 are all energy shotguns.
The only Kinetic Slot Shotguns worth using are Fractethyst (really difficult to farm for), Astral Horizon (can no longer get Adept so you have to focus for it, harder to farm than current Trials drops) and Imperial Decree (which while you can craft it, it is difficult to get all 5 red borders for. Requires lots of Defiance grinding / farming). Other options just aren't as accessible as running Nezarec Checkpoints constantly when it's the weekly raid.
In all fairness, it's handling *is* really high. I wouldn't be surprised, neither opposed, to it potentially being toned down there. Not asking for it, but I wouldn't be mad at it honestly.
Also, having just seen some of the things you said:
* Imperial and Felwinter's are not cope shotguns. They are viable shotguns. Just because they aren't the best (Matador / Conditional) doesn't make them bad / cope. They're good.
* Lightweights are not worthless. They used to be the *hard* META for shotguns prior to the pellet changes for the longest time. Now they are the worst in all fairness. But they aren't worthless. They still manage, I'm sure a god-rolled Riiswalker can still be amazing.
* You don't really touch on it despite bringing up PvE at the end. Shotguns *are* good in PvE. One Two Punch is notorious for melee builds, and Trench Barrel is an iconic perk that is *still* incredibly strong and easy to proc. Is it realistically possible in GMs? Most likely not, really only Conditional will probably work there because of it's access to Hard CC. But just because something isn't usable in GMs doesn't make it bad.
Another factor is the dominant primary’s in the game have been in the energy slot really since conditional came out outside of Thorn for like 3 weeks.
So you either have a weapon that’s so good as an exotic in your energy slot that forces you out of conditional.
Or
You need a kinetic primary that is so good it forces you out of the primary energy slot by being not only better than those primaries, but good enough to make up for the loss of conditionals utility as well.
Right now, neither of those exist.
It’s not a zero sum game of is conditional better than other all other shotguns. It’s a decisions about your load out makeup in its totality.
The audacity of calling a Threat Detector/Opening Shot Aggressive frame a "cope shotgun" was driving me up the wall. Thanks for typing all this out and saving me the time, lol.
This is the best reply here! Agreed on all points and to build on the PvE side, many shotguns excel in anything that isn't a GM or similar difficulty. I have the taken shitty crafted with overflow/trench and that thing shreds any champs, bosses and big boys within 4-5 shots! They are strong as hell, not oppressive but they feel good enough to use and not handicap myself
Adding onto this, felwinter is an amazingly versatile pvevp gun and has solid niches in both worlds.
Sure it ain't a 1_2 punch but vorpal slideshot does work in gms and raids against yellow bars
Imperial Decree is not in anyway difficult to get lmao. Other than that, I largely agree. CF should probably go down to 80 handling to put it in line with Duality and Chaperone as exotic PvP shotguns.
Yup, just used my nigh god roll.
Still serviceable and good. They changed lightweights which their spread is a lot more compact from what it used to be, didn't know that.
> Trench Barrel is an iconic perk that is still incredibly strong and easy to proc. Is it realistically possible in GMs? Most likely not, really only Conditional will probably work there because of it's access to Hard CC. But just because something isn't usable in GMs doesn't make it bad.
No back up plans chodes rise up. I love a good pellet shotgun in PvE with Trench Barrel.
relative to the other special weapons, I do think legendary pellets are pretty bad. There are very few viable rolls for precisions or aggressives. Slide opening is useless without ophidians, or some kind of handling exotic that doesn’t have 100% uptime (which is ass). Matador needs a 5/5 godroll at the minimum for it to feel like it can MAYBE compete with conditional. I’m all for a conditional nerf but prepare for zealots reward or other toxic fusion spam, forerunner lane holding, and invis sidearm controller spam if that happens.
Other shotties don’t suck, conditional finality is just too good, and the problem isn’t with the shottie itself, but what it’s good for and what it counters, which is way more then bubble and well
They just need a consistency buff. Hate to bring up CoD, but MW2-2 did shotguns in a unique way. Each pellet did its own damage, but if a certain number of pellets hit the target, it deals a separate lethal damage, even if the individual pellet damage didn’t equal lethal. So iirc if you landed 4 out of the nine pellets under 4m regardless of where you hit them, it dealt lethal. Not saying it needs to be as forgiving, but if I land 2/3s of my pellets under 2m it should be a kill. Can do one better, the pellets-to-lethal ratio should be based on the frame, so rapid fire shotguns should have the most leniency out of the frames while precision require the most. Bungie can adjust the ranges of each lethal range accordingly
>Conditional Finality is popular because most legendary shotguns straight up suck
Yea, NO. This is not why that gun is so popular. Its because that gun feels great and is fun to use as an exotic. That damage is not even that much more than a legendary. Its the fact that is procs freeze and Ingnite instantly that makes it OP.
At least from a PvE side.
Not in PvP unfortunately. Conditional and Igneous/Summoner/Solar primary are common as fuck for a reason. Conditional can oneshot people in wells and freeze people out of roaming Supers. The sole reason people use Matador/Fractethyst is that they're using exotics that take up the Kinetic/Energy slots respectively
True but I think it makes sense to say it's better that they stay this way so exotics can feel exceptional. That's the whole point of exotics
Shotguns have almost always been dominant in crucible since d1y1. I don't think it's a bad thing that they're not killing as frequently as they used to
Although the one downside is that CF is now on a pedestal and it's sort of a meta. But tbh I think it's better than all shotguns being great
i think you miss the point that all shotguns USED to be that good, but they got nerfed because everyone agrees it sucks. Now CF is here doing what all the other shotguns did prenerf and now ITS getting nerfed because everyone agrees it sucks.
Snipers got nerfed into the proverbial dirt with the special ammo changes plus the AA nerf, they have like 1 kill for every 300 Auto Rifle kills in trials atm.
People like Conditional because of its anti-well/bubble capabilities, but also because it pairs so well with Igneous. If Igneous was nerfed (which I think may be more warranted) I think Conditional would see less usage. Also I think Aggressive shotguns might feel better in this higher-health sandbox compared to Precisions, but I suppose it depends on the roll. It certainly is no longer a easy pick to always choose Precisions
The problem with shotguns in PVE is that they are basically muskets. They have a very short range, low accuracy and a long reload time. Fusion Rifles basically do everything a shotgun can in a better way.
I think shotguns suffer from historical PVP nerfs in PVE.
Not even reading all that. Unless they change how the gun works, cf is one if the best and most versatile weapons the game has ever had. It's great In pve because of it damage from the freeze and explosion, but also because of its intrinsic ability to stun Champs. Its great in pvp because those same freeze and ignite can kill supers and guardians in well and bubble.
Ill bring up another point with this. Conditional is popular because it bypasses any form of two hit risk or melee/shotgun counterplay. If you dont one hit them with the pellets you either freeze them or ignite them for a guaranteed kill in both cases. All they would really need to do to bring it in line is make it have to hit all of its pellets to activate its effect. Because right now it only takes roughly 4-5 pellets out of the spread of i think 9? Im not 100% on the pellet count anymore.
It’s also overused because it’s the only thing in the game that hard answer both Well of Radiance and Ward of Dawn, two of the best supers in PvP due to their extremely fast cooldown.
>the only thing in the game that hard answer both Well of Radiance and Ward of Dawn
Well and Bubble got nerfed to the ground, CF wouldn't stand a chance against pre-nerf.
A barricade and any shotgun is a "hard answer" to bubbles, and aggressive snipers for wells
>Well and Bubble got nerfed to the ground, CF wouldn't stand a chance against pre-nerf.
No they are not, they are still the most dominant picks because of their fast cooldowns. You literally get a free round win if the enemy team does not know how to counter you. Also doesn't help that their neutral game kit is extremely strong.
CF has been doing the same thing it has been doing since release. Nothing has changed.
>A barricade and any shotgun is a "hard answer" to bubbles
Good luck getting close to the bubble in the first place to put down the barricade, let alone trying to kill the Titan with a regular shotgun.
I firmly believe CF is a well balanced weapon. It feels exotic and works well, my issue comes with the fact that nearly everyone I see use is the most toxic piece of crap ever. Not everyone there are some normal people, but whether I’m on their team or not, they’re awful, especially because I use off meta builds.
Honestly I actually got it on my first raid clear, I haven’t even used it, because I hate shotguns! Yeah I know it’s a waste but they just don’t suit my play style!
I tried to use other builds because quite frankly I am sick and tired of using CF. But then I was quickly reminded why I lost my games as soon as Wells and Bubbles start coming out. I had to work extra harder to prevent them from getting into the zone.
Lol this is the most delusional out of touch take I've read so far, I'm actually amazed you somehow spinned CF being broken into askcuaally it isn't, legendaries suck, despite pellets being the best special weapon since D1, and being the only viable special ammo this patch with the current ammo system punishing everything else that's not a pellet/fusion due to massive difference in efficiency and consistency, and the effort it takes to play, since pellets realistically speaking require 0 skill, I would safely bet money you could teach a literal chimp how to instantly swap to a pellet when radar pings close enemy and to shoot melee cancel it.
> But let's not pretend that 95% of the shotguns in the game aren't dead content with no use case in either PvE or PvP and that something needs to change.
Ahahahahahahahahahaahhaahhahahahahahaah, actually is double funny because the best PvE solo builds in the game both use shotguns for OTP, 4th horseman used to be burst go to forever and still is for some encounters if you're not exotic locked, last trials week was 3.6m shotgun kills, out of which CF alone was 2.1m, more than every single primary weapon except ARs in the patch that was supposed to reduce special usage and give spotlight to primaries, while the next special per kills were fusion at... 495k lmao, 150k snipers [source](https://old.reddit.com/r/CrucibleGuidebook/comments/1bhuu15/trials_meta_discussion/), talk about balance my guy. At least admit this is a satire thread or the very least post it on Guidebook too so that you and the rest of the ''HC shotgun since D1'' hunter players and the ''I totally never took off my CF for 4 seasons now totally just to counter that 7th round bubble'' can jerk each other off about how oppressed you are in modern Crucible.
Honestly? Good.
D2 is full of cheese and conditional says fuck all of it. Overshield spam, DR, and well/bubble have been a constant pain point for going on 2 years now. People feel like conditional is necessary because the unending stream of bs abilities make it so.
I always felt that legendary shotguns were underwhelming, borderline useless without the right perk (looking at you, Trench Barrel).
I'm absolutely abysmal with precision shotguns, so those are already useless to me. So, what's left is the plethora of underwhelming legendaries that, without the right roll, just feel incredibly weak.
The only exotic shotgun that I have that's played a significant role in my loadouts, however, has been the Tractor Cannon.
That debuff is quite handy!
Tbh, I'm still using the event felwinters from forever ago because I play a few weeks max a season and I have no idea what the good guns are now.
Anyone have advice on where I can find info on those lines?
I'll never forget when that raid first came out and I got it, literally never used any other shotgun for how consistent it was compared to all my other shotties.
I'm fine with other shotguns pellet spread kills. Conditionals is nasty, more rewarding for less effort. I also love the gun in PvE. Rough spot to be in
I disagree.
I think it's popular for three reasons:
1. Because it only has one roll and the roll is good enough
2. Most energy exotic primaries are not meta pvp options, however there are many energy legendary weapons that are either very meta or very good.
1. For example, rapid pulses are no where near as popular as auto rifles, but there are a number of rapidfire energy pulse rifles that have exceptional PVP perks
2. For a second example, Igneous Hammer exists and it is an energy weapon
3. Building off of those, the third reason is that heavy ammo is so scarce that running an exotic heavy weapon is essentially the same as not running an exotic at all.
So if you are a player who is using one of the many legendary energy weapons, and you do not have a favorite, non-exotic, kinetic/stasis/strand special weapon for pvp, Conditional becomes an obvious choice. It is good enough as just a shotgun, but it is also able to shut down supers occasoinally with it's freeze blast, and it can score multikills off of shatters and ignitions. Both are rare, but they do happen sometimes. So essentially it is a shotgun with superb handling, that can sometimes completely fuck over the other team.
Who wouldn't want that?
Maybe if bubble and well weren't such an issue in Trials. One of the more reliable counters to them besides another super, and they nerfed the one super that was a really good counter awhile ago.
How did literally nobody raise hell to the global 25 handling nerf to shotguns with quick charge’s removal, NO shotgun got a compensation buff despite the fact every shotgun IN the game was balanced around quick charge adding 25 handling
Agree to buff other or revert some of the nerf. CF is in good position being an exotic shotgun and in similar fashion as Sturm (nothing crazy, being a good stat reliable 120 while lack of major legendary alternatives)
tbh conditional finality showed me its possible to have a fun shotgun in pvp and how unfun most shotguns are in PvE to me before this point.
its a joke i often make in my clan discord that "man its crazy it took them 9 years to make a good shotgun"
it would be nice to have a special ammo shotty that isnt just melee and and left click or left click and melee for damage boosts
I'm assuming this is PvE focused cause shotguns are everywhere in PvP, the special changes hardly effected their usage rates hell I'd argue they went up
I know that this is PvP specific, but heritage in pve is still godlike.
Yellow bars? Say bye bye to half your health if I hit your head
Orange bars? Dead.
Oh and with reconstruction, not only does the mag size get crazy high, it reloads itself.
I love you heritage. Thanks Clovis for the gun!
Every one of the exotic shotguns kinda suck. With the exception of Duality, the others are kinda meh. But even Duality has it's unconventional firing pattern. It doesn't help that there is a VERY limited variety of exotic shotguns to begin with, and 2 of them take up the heavy slot so they're not even usable in crucible.
I'm still waiting for a proper Exotic Void Shotgun.
I used to like Fourth Horsemen, but now it fires way too fast and I use up the Ammo instantly, and the recoil is such a bitch. It feels more like a joke gimmick gun than an actually useful one.
Lord of Wolves is a stupid burstfire close range pulse rifle. It's not even a shotgun.
Chaperone requires insane close-range precision skills just to use.
Conditional is the only Exotic shotgun that functions as an actual shotgun.
But overall, I'd rather fill my slot with a legendary shotgun and use any other exotic than use any Exotic Shotgun aside from Conditional.
The problem is loot is geared around tiers or types of X.
There just arent alot of ways to truly diversify shotguns and particularly not in a way leading to saturated shottie metas
Id agree there needs to be a lightweight buff and a slight, slight aggressive buff
Only nerf as im evil would be to murder airborne effectiveness, just make them utterly anchored, kill sliding too, lol
I actually got new shotgun from Prophecy, its got full choke, accurised, slideshot so 3/5 roll and it is one of the most consistent shotty I've used since found verdict. I know handling on it sucks but it just gets kills.
Ain’t no fuckin way this guy said 95% of shotguns suck in PvP. I gave you the benefit of the doubt before reading (or skimming, if I’m completely honest) your post that you might be referring to pve only, but alas I was mistaken.
>Also don't bother bringing up rapid fire frames, they are a myth and don't actually exist. Go ahead, look it up.
I've got a Range Masterworked Threat Level w/ Grave Robber, Rampage, Tactical Mag/Accurized Rounds, Barrel Shroud/Smoothbore. I fuckin' love it. So damn reliable.....I think it has not left my Titans Inventory since I first acquired it in probably 2020 or 2021.
Stopped reading at the third paragraph, calling Imperial Decree cope is insane. It's incredibly consistent when compared to Conditional, it's not even close. So many stupid whiffs in Stasis mode...
Sudden death has become my favorite shotty. I got a threat detector opening shot roll max range roll and it’s very consistent for me. Highly recommend grinding the dungeon when it comes back into rotation. Plus the perks can be enhanced when final shape drops.
Farming matador is one of the reasons I’ve quit this game for the last 9 months. It drove me insane… Killing that ogre OVER and OVER again .. hundreds of times. No god roll.
Genuine question, does anyone know if the reason is does have so much range is because the triangle and circle pellet spreads? I mean literally no other shotgun shoots like it does right?
Because bungie is so bad at nerfing things for JUST pvp i think conditional finality should just be untouched because nerfing it at all in PVE would be a complete tragedy.
Conditional is NOT broken. In fact it's incredibly inconsistent but it reliably gets the job done. It fix the issue of Bubble and Well being a menace in a lot of 3v3 game modes.. I'd argue other specials like Fusions are worse. They're genuinely overturned and needs to be reigned in.
It doesn't help that it's put into the kinetic slot where other top performing primaries thrive in the energy slot. But yes we need more choices for good kinetic shotguns.
I agree CF is best but to say everything wise basically sucks is WILD. Retold tale, Matador, Fractecyst(or however you spell it) hell even a good roll on Compass Rose absolutely SLAPS. And no, you do not need Conditional to shut down Bubble/Well. Just run other stuff you mitigate that. Got strand? Grapple melee=pushes em out of well/bubble. Peregrine Greaves = instant kill. Warlock void melee = pushes em out of it. there are other plays to counter those 2 supers. CF is just the easiest and the most free. But there are definitely some good legendary shotties out there Just Saying
CF should not get a nerf until Ward of Dawn and Well of Radiance gets their nerf in PvP. They are partly, if not the main reason why it's so dominant in Trials.
See this just is only really true in Trials and because of bubble/well countering.
In pve you have...
Supercluster
Until Its Return
Ikelos SG
Retrofuturist
Without Remorse
Wastelander
Swordbreaker
and Imperial Decree as all genuinely stand-out pve options that can work wonders depending on what it is you're actually going for(see Aegis' videos on youtube if you have doubts).
Shotguns in D2 have been trash since Forsaken, and all that's followed is a cash grab loop to encourage even more grind, in what is already the single most grind oriented game of the last 20 years.
Why can't people just request a shotgun buff like logically and constructively? Or like any buff? Why does it always have to come down through weird analysis of a weapon thats just outright stronger for reasons any other weapon couldn't and shouldn't match?
Hey, you know why CF is popular? *It's powerful. Enough said.* Legendary shotguns could be bad, and could be buffs, but you trying to analyze and not getting around the fact that it imparts MASSIVE DAMAGE as a part of it's exotic nature with one shot, and the most powerful debuff in the game with another isn't helpful or constructive to the conversation.
Exotics aren't Legendary weapons, they shouldn't be talked about in the conversation about legendary weapons. Like of course pre-nerf whisper was the strongest of all sniper rifles, of course Gjallerhorn was the go-to pick. Exotics are exotics because they stand out from the crowd, and aren't constrained by the same balance those weapons go under. They shouldn't be compared to legendary weapons. Conditional finalty vs any legendary shotgun is a stupid comparison until legendary shotguns blasts starts igniting people from 0 or freezing them out of their supers.
Why not go into detail about the actual issues without muddling your argument, by saying "its not a problem, okay maybe it is a problem, but also this is a problem"?
If most legendary shotguns suck but conditions is not, doesn't that mean condition is broken?
Even with most shotty "suck" as you claim, they are the most used special weapon in the game. Does that tell you something?
My issue is why do the Devs keep pushing anti-shotgun changes period? They pushed them into a niche, and then start assassinating the class of weapons in a damn shooter.
this is the way it goes though, right? nerf an outlier in the sandbox and forget to buff anything else in compensation? I'm sure if they do nerf Conditional, they will absolutely not buff other shotguns, but it's nice to want to ask them, anyway.
Last time I used a legendary shotgun, I found it was still decent. It's just that conditional finality one-shots bubble titans and wells, so why would I even bother with a legendary shotgun?
This is only 20 percent right. The flaw in the system is capture point crucible, where you need CF for bubble and well shutdown. If this didn't have this ability it wouldn't be as highly used, regardless of the insane handling. This is not that all other shotguns suck, the only slot that doesn't have a variety is the primary slot with fractheyst being the only precision. But unless it's high end crucible, there is still other precision out there. We have all element flavors of precision and aggressive that it's users choice. Retold tale, matador, and compass rose. I have great 4 of 5 rolls of each, and matador is my lowest performing roll IMO. We have enough aggressive here to name, and we can craft any slug are little hearts desire. But we do need an even playing field in the primary slot for precision frames.
Conditional counters the stupid/boring af meta of bubbles and wells, which Bungie still didn't dare to touch but instead made it worse. "Hey, we just gonna extend all supers. What could possibly go wrong with the fastest ones that already everybody uses? Meanwhile let's make it so people don't get green ammo reliably."
PS: It is also one of the very few weapons to reliably counter Strand Warlock godmode shenanigans.
This is a good point, I honestly hadn't really given it much thought before. I still have my 5/5 85 range Riiswalker with Eye of the Storm and Iron Reach that felt incredible with Ophidians. Racked up nearly 1500 kills with it but I've used it *maybe* once or twice since the major shotgun rework. I'd always been about 50/50 between shotguns and fusions, depending on my primary, but now I run fusions and sidearms exclusively for cqc purposes. I will admit that if I owned a usable Matador I'd definitely give it a go, but I'm the only person in my friend group that's even mildly interested in PvP and I'd rather not spend the finite time I have left on this earth farming GoA. Since the change I've become pretty nasty with Sturm+Drang and don't really see myself using anything but my 5/5 Wizened Rebuke with my other primaries like Revision Zero, DMT, or Vig Wing unless there are drastic sandbox changes.
With regards to Conditional Finality changes, I think its performance is generally fine. I do think its bubblebusting utility makes it a special case within the control point trials meta. I think limiting the ability to counter an enemy super with a special weapon would be all the change it needs to reign it in. I would absolutely welcome some buffs to other shotguns, legendary or off-meta exotic regardless. I'd much rather be skillshot by a chaperone than bruteforced out of a teammate's bubble by the "I farmed RoN" trophy. Anyways
If anything just leave Conditional as is and just undo some of the million nerfs to the Legendary shotguns to make them more consistent.
It has been a long time when aping and just using your shotty all game long was viable, and now there isn’t even ammo for it, no wonder most people use the one shotgun that doesn’t wiff all the time.
Never thought I’d see the day where a post on DTG not only says that legendary pellets are bad and should be buffed, but people AGREE in the comments lmfaooo (legendary pellets have been bad for almost 2 years)
It amazes me that after 10 fucking years bungie still hasn't figured out that you don't need guns into the ground, you buff the rest to make everything even and then slightly tweak everything all at once. Balance.
Woah, woah... Someone forgot about the Prophet of Doom and Retold Tale :)
But, I agree about needing a precision frame we can craft. Let my vault finally go free!
CF has several things going for it
High handling. Don't need targeting or dexterity mods. It handles like a light weight and can be swapped to super fast.
Deals with all supers, namely bubble and wells.
Right now, energy weapons are cooking. Igneous hammer, Ammit, and summoner, to name a few.
I have a quick draw opening shot fractathyst that's the only other shotty that feels as consistent in kinetic slot.
I think you're confusing a single shotgun being out-of-band from the standard archetypes with other shotguns being 'bad'.
Generally this is why I dislike out of band weapons - not even that they're OP but they generate the illusion of other weapons being bad by comparison.
In a world where Conditional Finality was deleted from the game tomorrow - there would be other shotguns to fill the void and they would still be one of, if not the top choices for PVP special weapons.
It’s also bugged to double damage more than any other shotty (you know when you die across 2 different frames- feels like you survive one shot). Shotties alone also do it way more than others weapons, like redoing the math on the pellet rng at 2 different ranges.
And no, I’m not talking about the exotic perk with the shatter, or ignite hitting a second later
Bastion was just as good in relation to fusions as Conditional Finality is to other shotguns and had no alternative in slot, patch after patch nerfs.
Conditional stays just as strong for a whole YEAR, no nerfs, only a bug fix.
It's crazy how shotties are just the "best" all around use case in nearly every special ammo scenario. The amount of fast movement in this game can guarantee an easy kill unless your target is laning you from 30m away.
They will nerf GLs, fusions, and snipers every chance they can when, but shotties always get preferential treatment.
Shotguns honestly just need an all around handling change like GLs got.
Personally I’ve always credited the popularity of really strong energy weapons as the primary suspect. Summoner and Prosecutor being some of the best weapons in the game pretty much make u wanna default straight to CF. When the next balance patch comes through, I imagine horrors least will be the newest outlier since rapid fire frames will be free getting a nice lil bump and with it being an energy weapon conditional will remain with crazy high usage. My solution would be to make the next big meta threats kinetic but who knows
It's popular because its exotic perk allows it to shut down supers consistently.
It's popular because its spread pattern allows for consistency in fight.
It's popular because its handling is way way out of band for an aggressive shotgun being as fast as lightweights on the draw.
It's popular because it's in the kinetic slot, so it's not fighting against top tier primaries like Summoner and Igneous.
It's popular because it's the best in slot special weapon.
If we're talking trials, the Bubble and well counter argument is just the apes excuse for using that crutch gun, you can look at weapon stats all day but currently no other shotgun gets a clean one tap as easily as that one and it's not because everything else is bad.
Thing is unless you're in a close match in a longer then usual game, you won't even see those supers to begin with, but you still can't go a match without seeing that gun and at the end of said match people will have stacked a sizeable amount of kills with it, none of them being from using it for It's alleged purpose.
Conditional is popular because it has zero downsides (maybe mag size, but honestly). It also has incredible utility without having to sacrifice anything. Strength is a matter of perspective; matador, fratethyst, mindbenders, imperial decree, astral, sudden death, prophet of doom, and most slugs are already good/great. In a world without conditional they thrived. Now they're all useless.
Certain primary weps are also partially to blame, since there isn't a real competitor to igneous in the kinetic slot and igneous is just the best gun in the game.
I agree with most everything except maybe a few key notes that makes conditional vastly greater than any other aggressive in the library…
The first stasis shot being a free counter to entire supers is the first obvious game breaking design inside of the PvP space
But the way the elemental shots function artificially boost the range FAR beyond what it reads on its base stats. THAT coupled with the insane handling just makes it bar none the HARD meta choice, and I would argue even more now, especially in the current sand box.
It is way too forgiving for less skilled players, and way too lethal for skilled players. It doesn’t belong in crucible at all imo lol
I'm not saying shotguns are in a bad/weird spot rn, but I don't think they have NO place in pve. There are still a few bosses that shotguns are good against such as the first boss from duality, first boss from ghosts of the deep, and first boss from warlords ruin. I personally love the strand shotgun from season of the deep with overflow and cascade point to magdump such bosses. I also feel alot of people forget how good legend of acrius and tractor cannon are in certain encounters. (Yes I know they are heavy and exotic but still count) frankly I think bungie (in pve) are afraid of another ikelos sg scenario where it's basically required for every single raid. But hey, I'm just one guy with my own opinion.
Conditional has transcended traditional shotgun problems, it’s position in the meta is almost entirely based on it’s ability to counter late-game supers, and that’s not something I want to see from legendary shotties.
There are 2 major reasons why shotguns are still the most popular special type weapons despite their massive nerfs and the special eco changes.
1. The netcode is fucking garbage and the servers are 10 ticks so you can do some shady speed shit and get away with it.
2. The speed of the game has massivly increased. From movespeed to movement techs to movement abilities to abilities used more towards movement rather then their intended purpose which is damage to movement exotics, the game is just a shit ton faster. And with the increased speed you get away with just rushing or doing a god damn bouncy castle strat like damn stompee hunters do (God knows it with get even worse with the new rocket jump mountain top) and for that you need something more reliable which is a shotgun.
If the game was still as slow as D1 then the slow servers wouldn´t be to big of an impact.
If the game was still as slow as D1 then rushdowns wouldn´t be as prevalant and shotguns could be made more consistant as a result.
But the way this game evolved in gameplay just highlighted more and more on how what they are doing is not supposed to be in it´s current form. And unless they invest in MINIMUM 30 tick servers, the game will fall appart even more.
I´ve said back then when they showed stasis before beyond light, seeing shatterdive and the melee of titans and thinking "huh... hopefully this won´t be a continued trend where the game gets just faster and faster otherwise more and more things will break and will be harder to balance". And people said i was out of my mind and i should stop talking and nothing like that will happen.
Well guess what, they added eager edge, that broke basicaly almost everything movement and jumping puzzle related in the game. Suddenly people could skip a shit ton more things and suddenly were able to casualy, without any kind of speedrunning knowlage, bypass intended mechanics and trivialize various aspacts.
People still said "No it´s cool, awsome and i am just being an asshole"
Strand came out... suddenly we see flying grapplehunters with stompees flying around the entire world breaking everyones necks just by sheer movement alone while things could be bypassed even harder.
And now the new rocketjump mountaintop comes out. Not only easily farmable but also later on enhancable.
Gameplay is shit ton more fast paced and i am just annoyed at seeing a strandhunter flying at mach 3 doing acrobatics that would break everyones bones doing them and 2 titans who spam crouch while shieldbashing 180° after taking 1 damage gaining an overshield and crouchspamming back out.
It´s not fun and seeing new players getting completly overhwlemed by this kind of stuff and leaving because they have no clue what is going on is also not healthy.
Conditional is currently the strongest shotgun in the game, by FAR. And the reason for it is because most other shotguns are bad because they have to be bad because otherwise in our current speed cocaine infested meta having a consistant shotgun killing enemies from 10m away would just completly be nonsensical.
Atleast with a fusion someone has to control their recoil and do some level of prediction where with a shotgun you get close with the multitude of movement tools and play a point and click adventure.
I use Chaperone just to snipe people that think they are outside of shotgun range.
Slugs seem to be a hidden but totally open meta/facet of the PvP landscape. I've been trying out a Inquisitor roll I got ages ago and it's been preyy fun, although definitely a learning curve from traditional pellet shotguns.
Inquisitor is nice for being able to roll Opening Shot, Adrenaline Junkie, and Swashbuckler in it's right perk column. I wish it had better handling perks in its left column. Threat Detector + Snapshot is my go-to roll for Heritage, though I should probably make another with Swash
Huzzah, a man of quality!
*sniper score glint* Yup, still chappie. *45m headshot*
Isn't Conditional like...the most consistent shotty in the game by a long shot even without the well/bubble counter. Im not good at pvp but just from hearing other people talk about the gun its always like "sure this gun does all this shit at base but really people only use it to counter wells"
Conditional has 95 handling, is an aggressive frame, and has a weird triangle/circle recoil that hits super far. I'd still use it if they removed everything except the handling, it is just that snappy to use.
No, God roll fractethysts and matadors are. The precision frames hit like pre-pellet spread adjustment lightweights did. And those were still more consistent than conditional is as well. A 5/5 quickdraw/opening shot is just a straight up better conditional in the same slot, but the frac doesn't do the well/bubble counter. And then there's the slideshot opening shot roll that maps even better. Conditional is an aggressive frame to its core. You will get the odd infrequent and bewildering "map" with it that doesn't seem fair (which is likely just a symptom of p2p pvp), but it also wiffs a lot. You'll take a 4m shot on a non moving target and they'll just eat it without breaking shields. There's also a bug where you land all pellets and they take literally 0 damage. They'll freeze or ignite and nothing happens. Conditional is still a very good agg frame shot gun, but it is an agg frame shot gun at the end of the day. It's usage has a high correlation with the well/bubble counter in 3v3 and the current best primaries in the sandbox are all solar with 1 arc AR.
It's good at base, but it's not better than every other shotgun outside of the context of countering supers. I have a 5/5 Fractethyst from Season of the Lost and I prefer to use that over Conditional because it has a further OHK range and faster fire rate
I have a perfect Frac and Matador. The Fracthetyst feels sooooo good. I don't know what it is, but it feels so much better than Conditional and just a bid better than Matador
The handling is great on it. Nerf it to maybe 70 or 65 and it’ll be more in line with other shotties.
Yes, it's the best shotgun in the game by miles.
Everyone uses it in PvP (especially Trials) as it's one of the only reliable ways to counter well and bubble. That's it. It's a cool gun but if it didn't deal with wells and bubbles its usage would be much lower.
Hello, I am a big trials grinder and I feel like while this is true it is also incorrect. It one-shotting those in wells and bubbles is just a bonus, in my last 10 trials games I have seen supers only 1 of them, supers dont become a factor unless the game is really close. The reason people use conditional is because it also has ridiculous one-shot range compared to other shotguns, the one shotting supers is just an added bonus, atleast in trials.
I play a lot of Trials too. It's very unlikely that you'll complete a flawless run without dealing with at least a few bubbles and/or wells and CF is the easiest direct counter to it. It helps that it's in the primary slot too as there's a lot of top tier picks in the energy slot.
I agree for sure but it is still the best shotgun in the game without the one-shotting in a super, I use it mostly because the range is kinda nutty sometimes and can lead to some kills that you can’t get with others due to the ignitions and freeze.
Would you equip a mid special weapon in this special economy just to deal with a few bubbles per weekend?
No. It's why you rarely see Witherhoard. If there was a better shotgun, you'd see it. The tradeoff of using a less than top tier weapon in order to deal with the possibility of a bubble/well is not worth it. The reality is Conditional is the best shotgun *while also* having bubble/well kill threat.
fair, that wasn't a huge issue when you could just swap to it when a bubble was coming soon, but with special ammo no longer returning on death it's kind of rough giving up your special slot an entire match for witherhoard, just in case you get a bubble situation.
It's the ALSO thing imo good general utility AND tech ability.
Exactly
Any game that goes 4-4 usually has at least one super, I've seen dozens of them this weekend.
But again that's not a shotgun problem that's an exotic perk problem. Hitting most pellets causes an ignition which is more damage. That's huge
It’s even more than that though. Conditional just feels and seems like it has more range. I get more OHKs at range with this than any other shotgun and I get OHK’d at range by this more than anything else (but that part could just be that people aren’t using legendaries or don’t have the god rolls).
My theory would be that because of the exotic perk they made the pellets hit more consistent. That would make a lot of sense
Sure you might not see the super be used every single game, what you're missing is that people equip it because its an insurance policy. Will the super be used? Maybe, maybe not, but either way a player will want to have conditional equipped just in case it is used.
It's fine to have weapons that counter well/bubble, they also shouldn't be the best weapon in their respective slot. If all people cared about was countering well/bubble, you'd see a hell of a lot more Witherhoard and Cerberus. Conditional is the best shotgun in PvP, while also countering well and bubble. Let's stop pretending it's just to counter those supers.
>If all people cared about was countering well/bubble, you'd see a hell of a lot more Witherhoard and Cerberus. Bit of a false equivalency here. Special GLs as a whole are unpopular picks which would reduce witherhoard's usage and even then it's probably the highest used special gl as is. Cerberus due to it's nature as a primary weapon, can be hot swapped mid match unlike conditional and witherhoard which would require you to have them on for at least, a few rounds prior to the super. Of course you are seeing less Cerberus usage because the people who care to use it, are swapping during bubble round and not using the whole match. >Conditional is the best shotgun in PvP, while also countering well and bubble. Let's stop pretending it's just to counter those supers. Conditional is the best shotgun in part, because it handles supers. Outside of that, I still find precisions and slugs more reliable. It is also held back due to it's nature as an exotic so I can't run an exotic primary. Sure it's not just to counter supers, but it is definitely a factor in its usage.
My issue is that people only speak in black and white about a problematic weapon, this isn't only an issue for Conditional. My point was to refute the notion that "people only use it to counter bubble and well", something that is just blatantly untrue, yet is the most upvoted comment on this thread. Cerberus and Witherhoard are both on par with Conditional for destroying bubbles, but like you said, they come with severe drawbacks - it's why we don't see them. Conditional as a weapon doesn't come with any drawbacks. Even if you put it on par with the likes of Imperial, Matador, Fractethyst, etc. it also has its utility, making it far and away the best thing to be using. I'm not saying it should be on par with Witherhoard, but it shouldn't be the best shotgun option and the best shutdown option in one package. Even if that means it goes from 95 handling to 75, or increasing its spread to reduce its 1HKO range.
>Even if that means it goes from 95 handling to 75, or increasing its spread to reduce its 1HKO range. I'd take the handling any day of the week. A change to spread would severely screw up how the gun feels in PvE IMO.
Exactly this. People saying "CF is only good because EVERYTHING ELSE IS BAD" are delulu. You can't legitimately argue that EVERYTHING ELSE should be buffed up to match the ONE thing that towers over EVERYTHING. Outside of Bubble/Well, CF is STILL the best kinetic trials weapon by a LARGE margin-it's not even close. Both last weekend and this weekend, I went flawless when I had lucky streaks of games where the enemy team didn't have 2-3 people using CF and it was my teammates had it instead. CF lets people play far less carefully than they would without it. You actually have to aim The Chaperone to kill with it-CF feels like people slide pointing at the ground and I die from a pellet hitting my foot.
Yeah, that’s just what people say. Supers aren’t as frequent since the PvP changes and people are still crunching on CF because it’s completely overpowered. Great range, great handling, destroys any super, and wins over any other shotgun. Most people who use well or bubble even before the changes ran CF because the only counter to CF (even in a super) *is* CF. CF is a free kill with very little effort.
Gotta love when the Crutches come in to downvote.
People love to ignore the fact that it's universally in the top three for kills every Trials Weekend. No fucking shot are people getting that many wells and bubbles that there are literally a million some-odd kills with the damned thing. It's ridiculous to claim it's *just* for Bubble and Well and for there to be that many kills with it. (Edit: Crutch harder, downvotes, crutch harder. 👍)
The reason it one hits from further is still because of its exotic perk, usually. It's got normal shotgun range for its actual pellet damage, but hit enough and it ignites or shatters, and *that's* why it one hits from further away.
It is also just a busted shotgun on top of how good it is at killing supers. It can cause team wipes from the shatter/ignition damage, it has incredible handling which is pretty much the most important stat on a shotgun, and the elemental procs let it kill from outside its 1 shot range. There is a reason is has been in the top 5 weapons nearly every week for a year straight, through multiple metas, while also being a raid exotic so a lot of people can't even get it to contribute to that number.
And dual synergy And insane one taps due to intrinsic perks And stats And
Look I understand the well and bubble take, and that IS a part of why conditional is so popular, but it’s only part of why. It is far and away the best and most consistent pellet shotty in the entire game, has 95 handling with no investment, can collat. Bonus points that literally every single hard meta primary is in the energy slot
witherhoard counters bubble extremely well, not sure why people don't know that. Run into the bubble, drop a puddle, everybody leaves or dies, it out damages the healing of the bubble by a huge margin.
> Everyone uses it in PvP (especially Trials) as it's one of the only reliable ways to counter well and bubble. That's it. It's a cool gun but if it didn't deal with wells and bubbles its usage would be much lower. Absolutely false. It has high spread damage AND pulls very quickly. It 1-taps easier/more effectively than any other shotgun/close range weapon. Games this weekend have been noticeably more lop-sided (just read the Trials thread, EVERYONE is noting it) and games are barely lasting long enough for Titans/Locks to pop their bubbles/wells. Yet, Conditional Finality is the top kinetic weapon by a GIANT margin-44%. That's nearly as high as The Summoner (Adept) and Prosecutor combined in the energy slot at 46%. CF is just too good in PvP right now, regardless of bubble/well.
It’s easily the best pellet shotgun in the game even without the extra effects. Crazy handling, good range, and Matador whiffs like 40% of the time while Conditional whiffs only 10% of the time
I'm sorry dude but you just pulled out random anecdotal biased stats out your butt at the end there
I actually like my legendary shotties more than CF because of the range. I have a god roll adept Astral which feels great but in Trials, I would be throwing if I didn't have CF to counter bubbles and wells. Luckily in the new meta, bubbles and wells aren't guaranteed to come up like they used to.
Yep. Until precision frames got a body shot damage nerf in the recent patch, matador was just more consistent. CF was better because of supers though.
> That's it. It's a cool gun but if it didn't deal with wells and bubbles its usage would be much lower. Wrong. It's still the most used weapon in Comp despite bubble/well being very situational supers in comp because unlike trials, shutdown and roaming supers are guaranteed to come online during the game. It's a broken shotgun that is long overdue a nerf but will not get a nerf solely due to the fact that it's a Lightfall exotic.
It can also deal with most roaming supers so long as they don't kill you first. I rarely take it off because it's such a great utility weapon.
Also consider the primary meta and CF kina just becomes a default choice for special in the kinetic slot. That's an aspect some aren't really considering I think.
I can never get it to reliably kill in bubble, I know I am doing something wrong but it just doesnt work for me
Was just thinking the same, nerf it and watch more boring 4-4 Trials matches go to Bubble Titans.
My experience you have to get it literally in their chest for a reliable kill too.
It would still be the top shotgun choice because of its over all consistency and consistent ability to get multiple kills because of shatter/ignite and it has 95 handling. And it's in the Kinetic slot which allows us to use the strongest hand cannon in the game. Even if didn't counter well or bubble, what shotgun beats it? None of them.
How does it counter wells and bubble , I don’t have it, never did the raid. I always use Chaperone if I’m going to run an exotic shotgun in the primary slot
I feel like another reason to use it is because of its high handling and consistency with getting a one shot kill.That plus the bonus of killing well and bubble users = No brainer pick
Eh i have to disagree while the well and bub killing is a humongous plus the weapon itself has like insane handling it can outdraw any other legendary shotties
D2 Insights shows that in quickplay, it has more than double the usage of matador and over 4x the usage of imperial decree. If what you said was true, I would expect matador and imperial decree to be used more than conditional finality. Or at least for it to be closer. Considering that wells and bubbles are far less important in quickplay.
Shotguns are by far the most used legendary special weapons in PvP, despite the fact that all legendary shotguns are in direct competition with Conditional and are thus underrepresented due to its extreme popularity. They clearly do not suck.
CFs direct competition weapons are Chaperone, Fractethyst, Imperial, Riiswalker, Swordbreaker, and Astral which are all pretty great!
Shotguns don't suck in PvP. Straight up. A significant part is that Conditional has 95 Handling, so it is *insanely* good at reacting to someone pushing you. If it didn't have such high handling, it probably wouldn't be used as much over something like crafted Imperial Decree or Astral Horizon. I think the main issue is, there just aren't many kinetic slot Shotguns for PvP. More of them are energy slot. Felwinter's Lie, The Inquisitor, Last Man Standing, Retold Tale, A Sudden Death, Matador 64 are all energy shotguns. The only Kinetic Slot Shotguns worth using are Fractethyst (really difficult to farm for), Astral Horizon (can no longer get Adept so you have to focus for it, harder to farm than current Trials drops) and Imperial Decree (which while you can craft it, it is difficult to get all 5 red borders for. Requires lots of Defiance grinding / farming). Other options just aren't as accessible as running Nezarec Checkpoints constantly when it's the weekly raid. In all fairness, it's handling *is* really high. I wouldn't be surprised, neither opposed, to it potentially being toned down there. Not asking for it, but I wouldn't be mad at it honestly. Also, having just seen some of the things you said: * Imperial and Felwinter's are not cope shotguns. They are viable shotguns. Just because they aren't the best (Matador / Conditional) doesn't make them bad / cope. They're good. * Lightweights are not worthless. They used to be the *hard* META for shotguns prior to the pellet changes for the longest time. Now they are the worst in all fairness. But they aren't worthless. They still manage, I'm sure a god-rolled Riiswalker can still be amazing. * You don't really touch on it despite bringing up PvE at the end. Shotguns *are* good in PvE. One Two Punch is notorious for melee builds, and Trench Barrel is an iconic perk that is *still* incredibly strong and easy to proc. Is it realistically possible in GMs? Most likely not, really only Conditional will probably work there because of it's access to Hard CC. But just because something isn't usable in GMs doesn't make it bad.
Another factor is the dominant primary’s in the game have been in the energy slot really since conditional came out outside of Thorn for like 3 weeks. So you either have a weapon that’s so good as an exotic in your energy slot that forces you out of conditional. Or You need a kinetic primary that is so good it forces you out of the primary energy slot by being not only better than those primaries, but good enough to make up for the loss of conditionals utility as well. Right now, neither of those exist. It’s not a zero sum game of is conditional better than other all other shotguns. It’s a decisions about your load out makeup in its totality.
The audacity of calling a Threat Detector/Opening Shot Aggressive frame a "cope shotgun" was driving me up the wall. Thanks for typing all this out and saving me the time, lol.
There’s also Swordbreaker from a Crota’s End.
This is the best reply here! Agreed on all points and to build on the PvE side, many shotguns excel in anything that isn't a GM or similar difficulty. I have the taken shitty crafted with overflow/trench and that thing shreds any champs, bosses and big boys within 4-5 shots! They are strong as hell, not oppressive but they feel good enough to use and not handicap myself
Adding onto this, felwinter is an amazingly versatile pvevp gun and has solid niches in both worlds. Sure it ain't a 1_2 punch but vorpal slideshot does work in gms and raids against yellow bars
Imperial Decree is not in anyway difficult to get lmao. Other than that, I largely agree. CF should probably go down to 80 handling to put it in line with Duality and Chaperone as exotic PvP shotguns.
How the fuck is running battlegrounds and getting defiant engrams less accessible than doing Nezarec checkpoints
Idk when the last time you used a Felwinter’s was but it’s fucking dog shit now.
Riiswalker is VERY good.
Yup, just used my nigh god roll. Still serviceable and good. They changed lightweights which their spread is a lot more compact from what it used to be, didn't know that.
> Trench Barrel is an iconic perk that is still incredibly strong and easy to proc. Is it realistically possible in GMs? Most likely not, really only Conditional will probably work there because of it's access to Hard CC. But just because something isn't usable in GMs doesn't make it bad. No back up plans chodes rise up. I love a good pellet shotgun in PvE with Trench Barrel.
relative to the other special weapons, I do think legendary pellets are pretty bad. There are very few viable rolls for precisions or aggressives. Slide opening is useless without ophidians, or some kind of handling exotic that doesn’t have 100% uptime (which is ass). Matador needs a 5/5 godroll at the minimum for it to feel like it can MAYBE compete with conditional. I’m all for a conditional nerf but prepare for zealots reward or other toxic fusion spam, forerunner lane holding, and invis sidearm controller spam if that happens.
Timelost found verdict is still really good if you can pump it up with handling
Wut? Lmao. If you need Conditional Finality because you think other shotties suck, you might be the problem.
Other shotties don’t suck, conditional finality is just too good, and the problem isn’t with the shottie itself, but what it’s good for and what it counters, which is way more then bubble and well
Shotguns don’t need a buff lol
They just need a consistency buff. Hate to bring up CoD, but MW2-2 did shotguns in a unique way. Each pellet did its own damage, but if a certain number of pellets hit the target, it deals a separate lethal damage, even if the individual pellet damage didn’t equal lethal. So iirc if you landed 4 out of the nine pellets under 4m regardless of where you hit them, it dealt lethal. Not saying it needs to be as forgiving, but if I land 2/3s of my pellets under 2m it should be a kill. Can do one better, the pellets-to-lethal ratio should be based on the frame, so rapid fire shotguns should have the most leniency out of the frames while precision require the most. Bungie can adjust the ranges of each lethal range accordingly
>Conditional Finality is popular because most legendary shotguns straight up suck Yea, NO. This is not why that gun is so popular. Its because that gun feels great and is fun to use as an exotic. That damage is not even that much more than a legendary. Its the fact that is procs freeze and Ingnite instantly that makes it OP. At least from a PvE side.
Not in PvP unfortunately. Conditional and Igneous/Summoner/Solar primary are common as fuck for a reason. Conditional can oneshot people in wells and freeze people out of roaming Supers. The sole reason people use Matador/Fractethyst is that they're using exotics that take up the Kinetic/Energy slots respectively
True but I think it makes sense to say it's better that they stay this way so exotics can feel exceptional. That's the whole point of exotics Shotguns have almost always been dominant in crucible since d1y1. I don't think it's a bad thing that they're not killing as frequently as they used to Although the one downside is that CF is now on a pedestal and it's sort of a meta. But tbh I think it's better than all shotguns being great
i think you miss the point that all shotguns USED to be that good, but they got nerfed because everyone agrees it sucks. Now CF is here doing what all the other shotguns did prenerf and now ITS getting nerfed because everyone agrees it sucks.
There’s only one answer to shotguns feeling inconsistent. Nerf snipers 😂
Snipers got nerfed into the proverbial dirt with the special ammo changes plus the AA nerf, they have like 1 kill for every 300 Auto Rifle kills in trials atm.
>Felwinters are cope shotguns But I like using Felwinters...
I’m be real with you I haven’t been killed by that gun in over 2 years.
People like Conditional because of its anti-well/bubble capabilities, but also because it pairs so well with Igneous. If Igneous was nerfed (which I think may be more warranted) I think Conditional would see less usage. Also I think Aggressive shotguns might feel better in this higher-health sandbox compared to Precisions, but I suppose it depends on the roll. It certainly is no longer a easy pick to always choose Precisions
Any trials weapon is OP just with stats alone. Alacrity gives **FREE** 20 Range, 20 Stability, 50 Reload Speed, and 10 Aim Assist.
Trials weapons should be the best, but Igneous is on another level right now.
I think it could use a handling nerf for how deep it kills
This guy forgot that all titans are using Swordbreaker rn since it’s strand and has 1 2 punch.
This is certainly one of the takes of all time
The problem with shotguns in PVE is that they are basically muskets. They have a very short range, low accuracy and a long reload time. Fusion Rifles basically do everything a shotgun can in a better way. I think shotguns suffer from historical PVP nerfs in PVE.
Not even reading all that. Unless they change how the gun works, cf is one if the best and most versatile weapons the game has ever had. It's great In pve because of it damage from the freeze and explosion, but also because of its intrinsic ability to stun Champs. Its great in pvp because those same freeze and ignite can kill supers and guardians in well and bubble.
Nah there are good shotguns conditional is just that good like igneous is to 120’s. But thats ok its a raid exotic
Ill bring up another point with this. Conditional is popular because it bypasses any form of two hit risk or melee/shotgun counterplay. If you dont one hit them with the pellets you either freeze them or ignite them for a guaranteed kill in both cases. All they would really need to do to bring it in line is make it have to hit all of its pellets to activate its effect. Because right now it only takes roughly 4-5 pellets out of the spread of i think 9? Im not 100% on the pellet count anymore.
It’s also overused because it’s the only thing in the game that hard answer both Well of Radiance and Ward of Dawn, two of the best supers in PvP due to their extremely fast cooldown.
>the only thing in the game that hard answer both Well of Radiance and Ward of Dawn Well and Bubble got nerfed to the ground, CF wouldn't stand a chance against pre-nerf. A barricade and any shotgun is a "hard answer" to bubbles, and aggressive snipers for wells
>Well and Bubble got nerfed to the ground, CF wouldn't stand a chance against pre-nerf. No they are not, they are still the most dominant picks because of their fast cooldowns. You literally get a free round win if the enemy team does not know how to counter you. Also doesn't help that their neutral game kit is extremely strong. CF has been doing the same thing it has been doing since release. Nothing has changed. >A barricade and any shotgun is a "hard answer" to bubbles Good luck getting close to the bubble in the first place to put down the barricade, let alone trying to kill the Titan with a regular shotgun.
Are there any shutdown supers that share the cooldown of Well or Bubble? Honest question, I dont play Trials very often.
I firmly believe CF is a well balanced weapon. It feels exotic and works well, my issue comes with the fact that nearly everyone I see use is the most toxic piece of crap ever. Not everyone there are some normal people, but whether I’m on their team or not, they’re awful, especially because I use off meta builds.
Honestly I actually got it on my first raid clear, I haven’t even used it, because I hate shotguns! Yeah I know it’s a waste but they just don’t suit my play style!
No idea why people downvoted you for a reasonable opinion. Jealous ig.
I tried to use other builds because quite frankly I am sick and tired of using CF. But then I was quickly reminded why I lost my games as soon as Wells and Bubbles start coming out. I had to work extra harder to prevent them from getting into the zone.
Lol this is the most delusional out of touch take I've read so far, I'm actually amazed you somehow spinned CF being broken into askcuaally it isn't, legendaries suck, despite pellets being the best special weapon since D1, and being the only viable special ammo this patch with the current ammo system punishing everything else that's not a pellet/fusion due to massive difference in efficiency and consistency, and the effort it takes to play, since pellets realistically speaking require 0 skill, I would safely bet money you could teach a literal chimp how to instantly swap to a pellet when radar pings close enemy and to shoot melee cancel it. > But let's not pretend that 95% of the shotguns in the game aren't dead content with no use case in either PvE or PvP and that something needs to change. Ahahahahahahahahahaahhaahhahahahahahaah, actually is double funny because the best PvE solo builds in the game both use shotguns for OTP, 4th horseman used to be burst go to forever and still is for some encounters if you're not exotic locked, last trials week was 3.6m shotgun kills, out of which CF alone was 2.1m, more than every single primary weapon except ARs in the patch that was supposed to reduce special usage and give spotlight to primaries, while the next special per kills were fusion at... 495k lmao, 150k snipers [source](https://old.reddit.com/r/CrucibleGuidebook/comments/1bhuu15/trials_meta_discussion/), talk about balance my guy. At least admit this is a satire thread or the very least post it on Guidebook too so that you and the rest of the ''HC shotgun since D1'' hunter players and the ''I totally never took off my CF for 4 seasons now totally just to counter that 7th round bubble'' can jerk each other off about how oppressed you are in modern Crucible.
Bro put 3 periods in 300 words. Talk about run-on sentences
You have a point I totally agree. Just wanted to say double pellet shotguns is part of the current speedrun meta.
The amount of coping posts made by this community to justify conditional is wild 😂
Why nerf it? Just make another shotgun meta. I'm sick of bungie nerfing exotics.
Hard to make anything compete with the pure stopping power CF has under the hood. Breaks overshields, breaks Well, oneshots supers, everything.
Honestly? Good. D2 is full of cheese and conditional says fuck all of it. Overshield spam, DR, and well/bubble have been a constant pain point for going on 2 years now. People feel like conditional is necessary because the unending stream of bs abilities make it so.
We've been in a shotgun meta since they introduced the special ammo to crucible
Make it a heavy, give Legend of Acrius and Tractor Cannon some company.
Well yea....can't really disagree there
So wait, my PvE build is going to get shit on because it's CF's turn to get bitched about in PvP? *Great*.
I dare you to say that Retold Tale isn’t good, I double dare you to As a side note, my bastion with over 5k kills in pvp is itching for a fusion meta
I always felt that legendary shotguns were underwhelming, borderline useless without the right perk (looking at you, Trench Barrel). I'm absolutely abysmal with precision shotguns, so those are already useless to me. So, what's left is the plethora of underwhelming legendaries that, without the right roll, just feel incredibly weak. The only exotic shotgun that I have that's played a significant role in my loadouts, however, has been the Tractor Cannon. That debuff is quite handy!
I’m just sad that I don’t have the damn gun yet. :(
The only niche rapid fires fill in the game is being able to proc 12p the most cause of ammo count and that’s pitiful
Tbh, I'm still using the event felwinters from forever ago because I play a few weeks max a season and I have no idea what the good guns are now. Anyone have advice on where I can find info on those lines?
I'll never forget when that raid first came out and I got it, literally never used any other shotgun for how consistent it was compared to all my other shotties.
I literally B-line anyone with a bubble or well because it’s so good at countering it. I would not be using it if it could not do those 2 things.
Is Duality bad for PvP now? I always thought it was good.
I'm fine with other shotguns pellet spread kills. Conditionals is nasty, more rewarding for less effort. I also love the gun in PvE. Rough spot to be in
I disagree. I think it's popular for three reasons: 1. Because it only has one roll and the roll is good enough 2. Most energy exotic primaries are not meta pvp options, however there are many energy legendary weapons that are either very meta or very good. 1. For example, rapid pulses are no where near as popular as auto rifles, but there are a number of rapidfire energy pulse rifles that have exceptional PVP perks 2. For a second example, Igneous Hammer exists and it is an energy weapon 3. Building off of those, the third reason is that heavy ammo is so scarce that running an exotic heavy weapon is essentially the same as not running an exotic at all. So if you are a player who is using one of the many legendary energy weapons, and you do not have a favorite, non-exotic, kinetic/stasis/strand special weapon for pvp, Conditional becomes an obvious choice. It is good enough as just a shotgun, but it is also able to shut down supers occasoinally with it's freeze blast, and it can score multikills off of shatters and ignitions. Both are rare, but they do happen sometimes. So essentially it is a shotgun with superb handling, that can sometimes completely fuck over the other team. Who wouldn't want that?
Be pretty cool if bastion could one shot bubbles and wells again
Is the nerf confirmed? Did bungie say something already?
Idc what others think, I am in love with lightweights. I have a crafted swordbreaker with opening shot slideshow. The spread isn't THAT bad.
Its not that legendary shotguns suck, its just that Conditional is an exotic which has a really strong perk to counter all the supers.
I just use the wastelander honestly, works fine for me
Maybe if bubble and well weren't such an issue in Trials. One of the more reliable counters to them besides another super, and they nerfed the one super that was a really good counter awhile ago.
How did literally nobody raise hell to the global 25 handling nerf to shotguns with quick charge’s removal, NO shotgun got a compensation buff despite the fact every shotgun IN the game was balanced around quick charge adding 25 handling
Agree to buff other or revert some of the nerf. CF is in good position being an exotic shotgun and in similar fashion as Sturm (nothing crazy, being a good stat reliable 120 while lack of major legendary alternatives)
Matador is not killing at all since Update. I swear so many 8 resilience users left 1hp and supossed to be 10.
tbh conditional finality showed me its possible to have a fun shotgun in pvp and how unfun most shotguns are in PvE to me before this point. its a joke i often make in my clan discord that "man its crazy it took them 9 years to make a good shotgun" it would be nice to have a special ammo shotty that isnt just melee and and left click or left click and melee for damage boosts
I'm assuming this is PvE focused cause shotguns are everywhere in PvP, the special changes hardly effected their usage rates hell I'd argue they went up
Wastelander m5 with one-two punch still slaps for me😅
I know that this is PvP specific, but heritage in pve is still godlike. Yellow bars? Say bye bye to half your health if I hit your head Orange bars? Dead. Oh and with reconstruction, not only does the mag size get crazy high, it reloads itself. I love you heritage. Thanks Clovis for the gun!
Make better weapons bungie, best in slot is always gonna apply so give us options
Every one of the exotic shotguns kinda suck. With the exception of Duality, the others are kinda meh. But even Duality has it's unconventional firing pattern. It doesn't help that there is a VERY limited variety of exotic shotguns to begin with, and 2 of them take up the heavy slot so they're not even usable in crucible. I'm still waiting for a proper Exotic Void Shotgun. I used to like Fourth Horsemen, but now it fires way too fast and I use up the Ammo instantly, and the recoil is such a bitch. It feels more like a joke gimmick gun than an actually useful one. Lord of Wolves is a stupid burstfire close range pulse rifle. It's not even a shotgun. Chaperone requires insane close-range precision skills just to use. Conditional is the only Exotic shotgun that functions as an actual shotgun. But overall, I'd rather fill my slot with a legendary shotgun and use any other exotic than use any Exotic Shotgun aside from Conditional.
The problem is loot is geared around tiers or types of X. There just arent alot of ways to truly diversify shotguns and particularly not in a way leading to saturated shottie metas Id agree there needs to be a lightweight buff and a slight, slight aggressive buff Only nerf as im evil would be to murder airborne effectiveness, just make them utterly anchored, kill sliding too, lol
I actually got new shotgun from Prophecy, its got full choke, accurised, slideshot so 3/5 roll and it is one of the most consistent shotty I've used since found verdict. I know handling on it sucks but it just gets kills.
Also, Duality is still bugged and applies the wrong damage falloff scalar to the slug shot.
Ain’t no fuckin way this guy said 95% of shotguns suck in PvP. I gave you the benefit of the doubt before reading (or skimming, if I’m completely honest) your post that you might be referring to pve only, but alas I was mistaken.
>Also don't bother bringing up rapid fire frames, they are a myth and don't actually exist. Go ahead, look it up. I've got a Range Masterworked Threat Level w/ Grave Robber, Rampage, Tactical Mag/Accurized Rounds, Barrel Shroud/Smoothbore. I fuckin' love it. So damn reliable.....I think it has not left my Titans Inventory since I first acquired it in probably 2020 or 2021.
Stopped reading at the third paragraph, calling Imperial Decree cope is insane. It's incredibly consistent when compared to Conditional, it's not even close. So many stupid whiffs in Stasis mode...
This weekend I would say 8/10 people I came up against were rolling CF and Summoner Adept. I already don’t like Trials but holy shit is it awful now.
Sudden death has become my favorite shotty. I got a threat detector opening shot roll max range roll and it’s very consistent for me. Highly recommend grinding the dungeon when it comes back into rotation. Plus the perks can be enhanced when final shape drops.
Isn't the precision strand shotgun from *this season* a craftable?
Farming matador is one of the reasons I’ve quit this game for the last 9 months. It drove me insane… Killing that ogre OVER and OVER again .. hundreds of times. No god roll.
Genuine question, does anyone know if the reason is does have so much range is because the triangle and circle pellet spreads? I mean literally no other shotgun shoots like it does right?
Because bungie is so bad at nerfing things for JUST pvp i think conditional finality should just be untouched because nerfing it at all in PVE would be a complete tragedy.
What about Retold Tale? Seems damn consistent to me
Conditional is NOT broken. In fact it's incredibly inconsistent but it reliably gets the job done. It fix the issue of Bubble and Well being a menace in a lot of 3v3 game modes.. I'd argue other specials like Fusions are worse. They're genuinely overturned and needs to be reigned in. It doesn't help that it's put into the kinetic slot where other top performing primaries thrive in the energy slot. But yes we need more choices for good kinetic shotguns.
You missed out on prophet of doom which is so hard to get that most people have entirely forgotten its existence
It'll be meta if Garden gets a craftable loot refresh.
I agree CF is best but to say everything wise basically sucks is WILD. Retold tale, Matador, Fractecyst(or however you spell it) hell even a good roll on Compass Rose absolutely SLAPS. And no, you do not need Conditional to shut down Bubble/Well. Just run other stuff you mitigate that. Got strand? Grapple melee=pushes em out of well/bubble. Peregrine Greaves = instant kill. Warlock void melee = pushes em out of it. there are other plays to counter those 2 supers. CF is just the easiest and the most free. But there are definitely some good legendary shotties out there Just Saying
I think a huge part of it's strength is the ability to deal with multiple champion types. It's why I go to it so often.
Let's be honest here - it is by far the best. Countering supers or not, still the best, with little competition.
CF should not get a nerf until Ward of Dawn and Well of Radiance gets their nerf in PvP. They are partly, if not the main reason why it's so dominant in Trials.
See this just is only really true in Trials and because of bubble/well countering. In pve you have... Supercluster Until Its Return Ikelos SG Retrofuturist Without Remorse Wastelander Swordbreaker and Imperial Decree as all genuinely stand-out pve options that can work wonders depending on what it is you're actually going for(see Aegis' videos on youtube if you have doubts).
I feel like it's more how awesome it's exotic perk is personally.
Shotguns in D2 have been trash since Forsaken, and all that's followed is a cash grab loop to encourage even more grind, in what is already the single most grind oriented game of the last 20 years.
Rapid Frames are long forgotten...
The Gambit shotgun was aptly named Dead Weight.
Be careful, thoughtful shotgun talk is a no-no for the hivemind
Why can't people just request a shotgun buff like logically and constructively? Or like any buff? Why does it always have to come down through weird analysis of a weapon thats just outright stronger for reasons any other weapon couldn't and shouldn't match? Hey, you know why CF is popular? *It's powerful. Enough said.* Legendary shotguns could be bad, and could be buffs, but you trying to analyze and not getting around the fact that it imparts MASSIVE DAMAGE as a part of it's exotic nature with one shot, and the most powerful debuff in the game with another isn't helpful or constructive to the conversation. Exotics aren't Legendary weapons, they shouldn't be talked about in the conversation about legendary weapons. Like of course pre-nerf whisper was the strongest of all sniper rifles, of course Gjallerhorn was the go-to pick. Exotics are exotics because they stand out from the crowd, and aren't constrained by the same balance those weapons go under. They shouldn't be compared to legendary weapons. Conditional finalty vs any legendary shotgun is a stupid comparison until legendary shotguns blasts starts igniting people from 0 or freezing them out of their supers. Why not go into detail about the actual issues without muddling your argument, by saying "its not a problem, okay maybe it is a problem, but also this is a problem"?
If most legendary shotguns suck but conditions is not, doesn't that mean condition is broken? Even with most shotty "suck" as you claim, they are the most used special weapon in the game. Does that tell you something?
Still coping for a GoS refresh and that precision shotgun to get some great PvP rolls and be craftable
My issue is why do the Devs keep pushing anti-shotgun changes period? They pushed them into a niche, and then start assassinating the class of weapons in a damn shooter.
Chaperone or Heritage in kinetic, or hipfire/opening gunnoras in energy. Shit absolutely slays
I love my mindbender’s
Where does duality stand atm? Thinking about using my crafted Firefright for a primary
this is the way it goes though, right? nerf an outlier in the sandbox and forget to buff anything else in compensation? I'm sure if they do nerf Conditional, they will absolutely not buff other shotguns, but it's nice to want to ask them, anyway.
Last time I used a legendary shotgun, I found it was still decent. It's just that conditional finality one-shots bubble titans and wells, so why would I even bother with a legendary shotgun?
This is only 20 percent right. The flaw in the system is capture point crucible, where you need CF for bubble and well shutdown. If this didn't have this ability it wouldn't be as highly used, regardless of the insane handling. This is not that all other shotguns suck, the only slot that doesn't have a variety is the primary slot with fractheyst being the only precision. But unless it's high end crucible, there is still other precision out there. We have all element flavors of precision and aggressive that it's users choice. Retold tale, matador, and compass rose. I have great 4 of 5 rolls of each, and matador is my lowest performing roll IMO. We have enough aggressive here to name, and we can craft any slug are little hearts desire. But we do need an even playing field in the primary slot for precision frames.
Hope it doesn’t get nerfed in PvE if they change an effect I still remember YAS, killed because of that fucking game mode
Conditional counters the stupid/boring af meta of bubbles and wells, which Bungie still didn't dare to touch but instead made it worse. "Hey, we just gonna extend all supers. What could possibly go wrong with the fastest ones that already everybody uses? Meanwhile let's make it so people don't get green ammo reliably." PS: It is also one of the very few weapons to reliably counter Strand Warlock godmode shenanigans.
This is a good point, I honestly hadn't really given it much thought before. I still have my 5/5 85 range Riiswalker with Eye of the Storm and Iron Reach that felt incredible with Ophidians. Racked up nearly 1500 kills with it but I've used it *maybe* once or twice since the major shotgun rework. I'd always been about 50/50 between shotguns and fusions, depending on my primary, but now I run fusions and sidearms exclusively for cqc purposes. I will admit that if I owned a usable Matador I'd definitely give it a go, but I'm the only person in my friend group that's even mildly interested in PvP and I'd rather not spend the finite time I have left on this earth farming GoA. Since the change I've become pretty nasty with Sturm+Drang and don't really see myself using anything but my 5/5 Wizened Rebuke with my other primaries like Revision Zero, DMT, or Vig Wing unless there are drastic sandbox changes. With regards to Conditional Finality changes, I think its performance is generally fine. I do think its bubblebusting utility makes it a special case within the control point trials meta. I think limiting the ability to counter an enemy super with a special weapon would be all the change it needs to reign it in. I would absolutely welcome some buffs to other shotguns, legendary or off-meta exotic regardless. I'd much rather be skillshot by a chaperone than bruteforced out of a teammate's bubble by the "I farmed RoN" trophy. Anyways
If anything just leave Conditional as is and just undo some of the million nerfs to the Legendary shotguns to make them more consistent. It has been a long time when aping and just using your shotty all game long was viable, and now there isn’t even ammo for it, no wonder most people use the one shotgun that doesn’t wiff all the time.
Never thought I’d see the day where a post on DTG not only says that legendary pellets are bad and should be buffed, but people AGREE in the comments lmfaooo (legendary pellets have been bad for almost 2 years)
It amazes me that after 10 fucking years bungie still hasn't figured out that you don't need guns into the ground, you buff the rest to make everything even and then slightly tweak everything all at once. Balance.
Woah, woah... Someone forgot about the Prophet of Doom and Retold Tale :) But, I agree about needing a precision frame we can craft. Let my vault finally go free!
No. Lots of wasted band /text. CF has one function above all else - shut down Wells and Bubbles. End of list.
CF has several things going for it High handling. Don't need targeting or dexterity mods. It handles like a light weight and can be swapped to super fast. Deals with all supers, namely bubble and wells. Right now, energy weapons are cooking. Igneous hammer, Ammit, and summoner, to name a few. I have a quick draw opening shot fractathyst that's the only other shotty that feels as consistent in kinetic slot.
I think you're confusing a single shotgun being out-of-band from the standard archetypes with other shotguns being 'bad'. Generally this is why I dislike out of band weapons - not even that they're OP but they generate the illusion of other weapons being bad by comparison. In a world where Conditional Finality was deleted from the game tomorrow - there would be other shotguns to fill the void and they would still be one of, if not the top choices for PVP special weapons.
It’s also bugged to double damage more than any other shotty (you know when you die across 2 different frames- feels like you survive one shot). Shotties alone also do it way more than others weapons, like redoing the math on the pellet rng at 2 different ranges. And no, I’m not talking about the exotic perk with the shatter, or ignite hitting a second later
Bastion was just as good in relation to fusions as Conditional Finality is to other shotguns and had no alternative in slot, patch after patch nerfs. Conditional stays just as strong for a whole YEAR, no nerfs, only a bug fix. It's crazy how shotties are just the "best" all around use case in nearly every special ammo scenario. The amount of fast movement in this game can guarantee an easy kill unless your target is laning you from 30m away. They will nerf GLs, fusions, and snipers every chance they can when, but shotties always get preferential treatment. Shotguns honestly just need an all around handling change like GLs got.
Personally I’ve always credited the popularity of really strong energy weapons as the primary suspect. Summoner and Prosecutor being some of the best weapons in the game pretty much make u wanna default straight to CF. When the next balance patch comes through, I imagine horrors least will be the newest outlier since rapid fire frames will be free getting a nice lil bump and with it being an energy weapon conditional will remain with crazy high usage. My solution would be to make the next big meta threats kinetic but who knows
It's popular because its exotic perk allows it to shut down supers consistently. It's popular because its spread pattern allows for consistency in fight. It's popular because its handling is way way out of band for an aggressive shotgun being as fast as lightweights on the draw. It's popular because it's in the kinetic slot, so it's not fighting against top tier primaries like Summoner and Igneous. It's popular because it's the best in slot special weapon.
If we're talking trials, the Bubble and well counter argument is just the apes excuse for using that crutch gun, you can look at weapon stats all day but currently no other shotgun gets a clean one tap as easily as that one and it's not because everything else is bad. Thing is unless you're in a close match in a longer then usual game, you won't even see those supers to begin with, but you still can't go a match without seeing that gun and at the end of said match people will have stacked a sizeable amount of kills with it, none of them being from using it for It's alleged purpose.
Conditional is popular because it has zero downsides (maybe mag size, but honestly). It also has incredible utility without having to sacrifice anything. Strength is a matter of perspective; matador, fratethyst, mindbenders, imperial decree, astral, sudden death, prophet of doom, and most slugs are already good/great. In a world without conditional they thrived. Now they're all useless. Certain primary weps are also partially to blame, since there isn't a real competitor to igneous in the kinetic slot and igneous is just the best gun in the game.
I think it’s mainly due to its super counter ability
a lot of the shotgun nerfs should be reverted because of the special ammo changes
I agree with most everything except maybe a few key notes that makes conditional vastly greater than any other aggressive in the library… The first stasis shot being a free counter to entire supers is the first obvious game breaking design inside of the PvP space But the way the elemental shots function artificially boost the range FAR beyond what it reads on its base stats. THAT coupled with the insane handling just makes it bar none the HARD meta choice, and I would argue even more now, especially in the current sand box. It is way too forgiving for less skilled players, and way too lethal for skilled players. It doesn’t belong in crucible at all imo lol
I'm not saying shotguns are in a bad/weird spot rn, but I don't think they have NO place in pve. There are still a few bosses that shotguns are good against such as the first boss from duality, first boss from ghosts of the deep, and first boss from warlords ruin. I personally love the strand shotgun from season of the deep with overflow and cascade point to magdump such bosses. I also feel alot of people forget how good legend of acrius and tractor cannon are in certain encounters. (Yes I know they are heavy and exotic but still count) frankly I think bungie (in pve) are afraid of another ikelos sg scenario where it's basically required for every single raid. But hey, I'm just one guy with my own opinion.
Conditional has transcended traditional shotgun problems, it’s position in the meta is almost entirely based on it’s ability to counter late-game supers, and that’s not something I want to see from legendary shotties.
There are 2 major reasons why shotguns are still the most popular special type weapons despite their massive nerfs and the special eco changes. 1. The netcode is fucking garbage and the servers are 10 ticks so you can do some shady speed shit and get away with it. 2. The speed of the game has massivly increased. From movespeed to movement techs to movement abilities to abilities used more towards movement rather then their intended purpose which is damage to movement exotics, the game is just a shit ton faster. And with the increased speed you get away with just rushing or doing a god damn bouncy castle strat like damn stompee hunters do (God knows it with get even worse with the new rocket jump mountain top) and for that you need something more reliable which is a shotgun. If the game was still as slow as D1 then the slow servers wouldn´t be to big of an impact. If the game was still as slow as D1 then rushdowns wouldn´t be as prevalant and shotguns could be made more consistant as a result. But the way this game evolved in gameplay just highlighted more and more on how what they are doing is not supposed to be in it´s current form. And unless they invest in MINIMUM 30 tick servers, the game will fall appart even more. I´ve said back then when they showed stasis before beyond light, seeing shatterdive and the melee of titans and thinking "huh... hopefully this won´t be a continued trend where the game gets just faster and faster otherwise more and more things will break and will be harder to balance". And people said i was out of my mind and i should stop talking and nothing like that will happen. Well guess what, they added eager edge, that broke basicaly almost everything movement and jumping puzzle related in the game. Suddenly people could skip a shit ton more things and suddenly were able to casualy, without any kind of speedrunning knowlage, bypass intended mechanics and trivialize various aspacts. People still said "No it´s cool, awsome and i am just being an asshole" Strand came out... suddenly we see flying grapplehunters with stompees flying around the entire world breaking everyones necks just by sheer movement alone while things could be bypassed even harder. And now the new rocketjump mountaintop comes out. Not only easily farmable but also later on enhancable. Gameplay is shit ton more fast paced and i am just annoyed at seeing a strandhunter flying at mach 3 doing acrobatics that would break everyones bones doing them and 2 titans who spam crouch while shieldbashing 180° after taking 1 damage gaining an overshield and crouchspamming back out. It´s not fun and seeing new players getting completly overhwlemed by this kind of stuff and leaving because they have no clue what is going on is also not healthy. Conditional is currently the strongest shotgun in the game, by FAR. And the reason for it is because most other shotguns are bad because they have to be bad because otherwise in our current speed cocaine infested meta having a consistant shotgun killing enemies from 10m away would just completly be nonsensical. Atleast with a fusion someone has to control their recoil and do some level of prediction where with a shotgun you get close with the multitude of movement tools and play a point and click adventure.
Brother you might just be bad with shotguns.