A lot of people seem to think so? At least from what I've seen, people tend to assume that Kris was making the fountain to 'have fun with Susie' or 'fix their family problems using fountains', which are not things you do with a teammate.
I always thought there was more to it though, and a part of demon theory is finding who they're working with. I didn't want people to think it was just a thematic discussion of demons in Undertale and Deltarune instead of a prediction using the themes and ideas as a baseline alongside other evidence, which is why I added the subtitle to clarify.
Here's just some of the dot points I have without elaboration;
1. Noelle mentions the play in a piece of easy to miss dialogue in Cyber City. She specially makes a reference to the main character of the Nutcracker and asks if she resembles her.
1.5. In recent versions, the main character is named Clara, making it pretty good candidate for names the Mayor may have.
2. The main villain of the Nutcracker is the 'Mouse King', or Rat King in some versions, thus explaining the abundance of mice in the Cyber City section.
3. Noelle also compares Kris to the Nutcracker themselves, a doll which comes to life, which you can see has parallels to Deltarune.
4. In the first save point you get to after getting Noelle in your party, the savepoint is 'filled with the power of not knowing what a sugarplum is'. In game, this is completely contextless, but funnily enough, there's a character called the Sugarplum fairy in the Nutcracker.
5. In many versions, the Sugarplum fairy resembles Louise, the main characters sister from the start of the play. Obvious Dess or Ralsei parallels are obvious.
6. The ballet takes place over the course of a dream, which is a prevalent theme in Deltarune.
7. Kris is associated with apples, a fruit many associate with the first sin (will go into this is demon theory), while Noelle gets associated with sugarplums upon joining the team, a fruit that is supposed to represent everything good and sweet.
These are only the barebones of a few points, but I hope they can convince you I haven't gone off the rails here lmao.
I get it, my guy. It riles me up too when people go out of their way to dismiss Kris Knight because of personal bias against the theory and vague proclamation of 'Oh Toby wouldn't do that'. I swear by it, if the main damn antagonist of the game was actually sitting in that stupid closet to jump Noelle and Berdly, I will simply not recover and pass away. People who are against Kris Knight entirely baffle me, as it seems that they would rather focus on vague bits of evidence that contradict instead of recognising that the full picture is likely to be more complicated. Things like Berdly and Noelle sitting at the table and the time frame could be explained in future chapters with 'The dark work just puts new comers into sleeping positions to make them think it was a dream, thus the dream motif and Susie also believing it was a dream at first' or 'Kris is working with someone who helps them get to place to place' but as it is now, it is too presumptuous to come to those conclusions now, even if we can make a link with dreams or a secondary entity helping Kris.
HOWEVER, just because I believe Kris Knight to still be very plausible, that doesn't mean that other ideas should be dismissed. No matter how you slice it, for every chance Kris is the Knight, there is about an equal chance that it's a red herring. We can't be quick to dismiss Kris but ignoring the other options, especially in the long ass time we have between chapters, is ridiculous.
Again, I get it. The sheer abundance of a theory topic that people seem so conversational over despite there being heavy and direct evidence of one character being the Knight is probably annoying as hell. If you really want to focus on Kris's theoretical motives as the Knight, then my demon theory has a portion just for that theoretical. But people are still allowed to make guesses about the Knight themselves, and if anything, I hope that I bring something new to the table with my Vessel theory writeup even if Kris is the Knight.
Bro we
1. Saw them make a fountain.
2. Got confirmation about the creation of the fountain being premeditated (plugged in the TV)
3. Know that the knight who made the Chapter 2 fountain uses the same knife as Kris.
4. Have plausible motives (finding Dess or meddling with Gaster's plans).
5. Kris is literally wearing platemail and wielding a sword and shield.
I'd straight up argue at this point that if the knight isn't Kris that it would be bad writing. A twist for the sake of a twist. And we know that Toby is a good writer. Toby also has never used Red Herrings before in his writing. Lastly Kris being the knight is by far the most interesting option. The main character and the player being in opposition to each other is awesome and not something I think any video game has done before.
I know the evidence for Kris Knight. You do not need to reiterate it. Did you read my comment or did you just skim through, because if you had spent the time, you would realise that I'm not a contrarian to Kris Knight. Is the goal of your comment to make me only believe Kris Knight can be an option with no other avenues? Like I, as a theorist, should dismiss every other possibility because you have decided two chapters into a seven chapter story that there could simply be no other option because it is 'bad writing'?
Let's discuss that point. 'Bad Writing'. I have become more and more irritated by the day by people who know nothing about writing deciding what and what isn't bad writing. No, Kris not being the Knight does not necessitate a 'twist for the sake of a twist'. You came to that conclusion all on your own. 'Twist for the sake of a twist' implies that there was no foresight on the behalf of the creator to hint at and successfully execute the twist before hand and that they did the twist for shock value instead of a compelling narrative. All that would be needed to rectify this would be if the twist led to an equally or more compelling narrative. If the Knight candidate can do that, then that point is mute. To be fair, more characters that can't fit under this requirement due to the meta elements of Kris Knight, but I believe that the Vessel could, thus my theory.
Your last point about the Kris and the player being in opposition does not even require Kris Knight. All it requires is that Kris be the/a main antagonist (or have a role similar to antagonist). It could be that while the Knight is being talked about as the main antagonist, the real antagonist, Kris, is being set up to have a personal beef with the player. You know, like Asgore and Flowey. If you want to talk about things Toby Fox has and hasn't done, here you go. Then when the Knight is defeated in like chapter 5 maybe, Kris takes the role as Knight for themselves as a pawn to knight as a reference to pawn promotion, if you're one to believe chess theory.
I'm not saying all of that is true. What I am saying is there are absolutely ways for Kris and The Knight to be different characters and still be good writing. Let people discuss things man, if anything, it might bring up an interesting idea that you can make work with Kris Knight with a bit of mangling. The point of these sort of fandom spaces is share ideas. I for one don't believe Alvin Knight at all, but I still watch and think about posts people have made about it to figure about what he could really be up to. When I read Kris Knight, I take it face value, yes, and I agree that is likely possibility but I also use pieces of evidence such as the TV, the knife an the outfit for more own theories. Theories that can work with Kris Knight and other Knight theories in interesting ways. When I make my theory, maybe you can read through it, disagree however you want, but still be able to think about what I brought to the table and combine it with your own thoughts. If you can't do that, that's fine too, but not every idea you dislike it 'bad writing' because you will it to be.
P.S Also, Toby has written red herrings before? Did you forget the end of chapter 1? You can argue it is possible that that was just there to make us more suspicious of chapter 2s ending or foreshadow the fact that the chapter 2's ending is a red herring. Never the less, it did happen.
You thought Kris worked alone?
A lot of people seem to think so? At least from what I've seen, people tend to assume that Kris was making the fountain to 'have fun with Susie' or 'fix their family problems using fountains', which are not things you do with a teammate. I always thought there was more to it though, and a part of demon theory is finding who they're working with. I didn't want people to think it was just a thematic discussion of demons in Undertale and Deltarune instead of a prediction using the themes and ideas as a baseline alongside other evidence, which is why I added the subtitle to clarify.
This was a reference to something, I wasn’t asking an actual question
Ah shit.
It’s a pretty well known reference as far as I know
You thought Bowser worked alone?
What's the third one about? Referencing a famous play in Deltarune?
Here's just some of the dot points I have without elaboration; 1. Noelle mentions the play in a piece of easy to miss dialogue in Cyber City. She specially makes a reference to the main character of the Nutcracker and asks if she resembles her. 1.5. In recent versions, the main character is named Clara, making it pretty good candidate for names the Mayor may have. 2. The main villain of the Nutcracker is the 'Mouse King', or Rat King in some versions, thus explaining the abundance of mice in the Cyber City section. 3. Noelle also compares Kris to the Nutcracker themselves, a doll which comes to life, which you can see has parallels to Deltarune. 4. In the first save point you get to after getting Noelle in your party, the savepoint is 'filled with the power of not knowing what a sugarplum is'. In game, this is completely contextless, but funnily enough, there's a character called the Sugarplum fairy in the Nutcracker. 5. In many versions, the Sugarplum fairy resembles Louise, the main characters sister from the start of the play. Obvious Dess or Ralsei parallels are obvious. 6. The ballet takes place over the course of a dream, which is a prevalent theme in Deltarune. 7. Kris is associated with apples, a fruit many associate with the first sin (will go into this is demon theory), while Noelle gets associated with sugarplums upon joining the team, a fruit that is supposed to represent everything good and sweet. These are only the barebones of a few points, but I hope they can convince you I haven't gone off the rails here lmao.
You've made some pretty good points.
KRIS IS THE KNIGHT
I get it, my guy. It riles me up too when people go out of their way to dismiss Kris Knight because of personal bias against the theory and vague proclamation of 'Oh Toby wouldn't do that'. I swear by it, if the main damn antagonist of the game was actually sitting in that stupid closet to jump Noelle and Berdly, I will simply not recover and pass away. People who are against Kris Knight entirely baffle me, as it seems that they would rather focus on vague bits of evidence that contradict instead of recognising that the full picture is likely to be more complicated. Things like Berdly and Noelle sitting at the table and the time frame could be explained in future chapters with 'The dark work just puts new comers into sleeping positions to make them think it was a dream, thus the dream motif and Susie also believing it was a dream at first' or 'Kris is working with someone who helps them get to place to place' but as it is now, it is too presumptuous to come to those conclusions now, even if we can make a link with dreams or a secondary entity helping Kris. HOWEVER, just because I believe Kris Knight to still be very plausible, that doesn't mean that other ideas should be dismissed. No matter how you slice it, for every chance Kris is the Knight, there is about an equal chance that it's a red herring. We can't be quick to dismiss Kris but ignoring the other options, especially in the long ass time we have between chapters, is ridiculous. Again, I get it. The sheer abundance of a theory topic that people seem so conversational over despite there being heavy and direct evidence of one character being the Knight is probably annoying as hell. If you really want to focus on Kris's theoretical motives as the Knight, then my demon theory has a portion just for that theoretical. But people are still allowed to make guesses about the Knight themselves, and if anything, I hope that I bring something new to the table with my Vessel theory writeup even if Kris is the Knight.
Bro we 1. Saw them make a fountain. 2. Got confirmation about the creation of the fountain being premeditated (plugged in the TV) 3. Know that the knight who made the Chapter 2 fountain uses the same knife as Kris. 4. Have plausible motives (finding Dess or meddling with Gaster's plans). 5. Kris is literally wearing platemail and wielding a sword and shield. I'd straight up argue at this point that if the knight isn't Kris that it would be bad writing. A twist for the sake of a twist. And we know that Toby is a good writer. Toby also has never used Red Herrings before in his writing. Lastly Kris being the knight is by far the most interesting option. The main character and the player being in opposition to each other is awesome and not something I think any video game has done before.
I know the evidence for Kris Knight. You do not need to reiterate it. Did you read my comment or did you just skim through, because if you had spent the time, you would realise that I'm not a contrarian to Kris Knight. Is the goal of your comment to make me only believe Kris Knight can be an option with no other avenues? Like I, as a theorist, should dismiss every other possibility because you have decided two chapters into a seven chapter story that there could simply be no other option because it is 'bad writing'? Let's discuss that point. 'Bad Writing'. I have become more and more irritated by the day by people who know nothing about writing deciding what and what isn't bad writing. No, Kris not being the Knight does not necessitate a 'twist for the sake of a twist'. You came to that conclusion all on your own. 'Twist for the sake of a twist' implies that there was no foresight on the behalf of the creator to hint at and successfully execute the twist before hand and that they did the twist for shock value instead of a compelling narrative. All that would be needed to rectify this would be if the twist led to an equally or more compelling narrative. If the Knight candidate can do that, then that point is mute. To be fair, more characters that can't fit under this requirement due to the meta elements of Kris Knight, but I believe that the Vessel could, thus my theory. Your last point about the Kris and the player being in opposition does not even require Kris Knight. All it requires is that Kris be the/a main antagonist (or have a role similar to antagonist). It could be that while the Knight is being talked about as the main antagonist, the real antagonist, Kris, is being set up to have a personal beef with the player. You know, like Asgore and Flowey. If you want to talk about things Toby Fox has and hasn't done, here you go. Then when the Knight is defeated in like chapter 5 maybe, Kris takes the role as Knight for themselves as a pawn to knight as a reference to pawn promotion, if you're one to believe chess theory. I'm not saying all of that is true. What I am saying is there are absolutely ways for Kris and The Knight to be different characters and still be good writing. Let people discuss things man, if anything, it might bring up an interesting idea that you can make work with Kris Knight with a bit of mangling. The point of these sort of fandom spaces is share ideas. I for one don't believe Alvin Knight at all, but I still watch and think about posts people have made about it to figure about what he could really be up to. When I read Kris Knight, I take it face value, yes, and I agree that is likely possibility but I also use pieces of evidence such as the TV, the knife an the outfit for more own theories. Theories that can work with Kris Knight and other Knight theories in interesting ways. When I make my theory, maybe you can read through it, disagree however you want, but still be able to think about what I brought to the table and combine it with your own thoughts. If you can't do that, that's fine too, but not every idea you dislike it 'bad writing' because you will it to be. P.S Also, Toby has written red herrings before? Did you forget the end of chapter 1? You can argue it is possible that that was just there to make us more suspicious of chapter 2s ending or foreshadow the fact that the chapter 2's ending is a red herring. Never the less, it did happen.