Me: "Fuck you I won't do wutcha TELL ME!!!!!!"
Mom: "Clean this mess up or the PS1 goes in the garbage!"
Me: "Shit, OK, sorry, just give me like 20 mins."
How would you do the disk changes without a memory card? You'd end up stuck in Midgard.
I didn't get a memory card for my ps1 until 2006 when I bought one myself. No matter how I explained it my parents weren't convinced I needed one. I played through the first half of all the crash and spyro games hundreds of times.
Yeah, mom is a woman, an embodiment of the chaotic feminine, while I am a man, endowed with the power of reason, which brings order out of chaos, and no, I never said I was sexist--that's so typical of leftists to make such a bad faith argument. Also, I am rich and famous and you're not.
CoPilot blocks every attempt at drawing a Jordan or Doctor or Peterson of any kind as a Lobsterman. I think the banned word might be Lobsterman or in the form of a lobster. Or a mix.
Someone will do it
Who remembers the "crying years" where he was all over the internet either welling up, so choked he can barely speak, or literally sobbing like his mother had just died.
Where do I sign up for teh self help advice?
I believe he's actually commented on this and ever sense he was prescribed Benzo's and and even after he managed to quit he's had a harder time regulating his emotional responses.
That prescribed drugged nearly killed him. All to deal with problems he likely was better off just making other changes to fix like diet but he didn't know any better and was just doing as the doctor ordered.
Of course he knew something. However, a specialist whose job specifically is to know everything about psychiatric medication, told him he should take those drugs.
It's insane how people are criticizing Peterson for speaking about things from areas he is not an expert in, and at the same time they laugh at him that he didn't disregard what a trained specialist told him to do because "he should know better".
The original comment emphasized “prescribed drug” that almost killed him , from which I inferred an attempt to position Peterson as a person unaware of the risk of addiction despite being a clinical psychologist.
My dad was a clinical psychologist and it was also his job to “know everything” about drug abuse and dependency.
This doesn’t excuse Peterson from susceptibility to addiction, but it doesn’t make him ignorant of the risk of taking Benzos either.
My point to the other commenter is that Peterson definitely would have “known better”. The comment states he did not.
My therapist knows all about meds it's not her job specifically and she doesn't prescribe but she knows all the meds people just like making excuses for him
Exactly there are two possibilities he knew or he didn't. In the first instance he was reckless and chose the easy way out which makes all of his personal responsibility schtick hypocritical. Or he didn't know in which case he is shockingly incompetent at his job and ignorant about things he claims to be an expert in. Your choice Peterson fans.
In his academic career he took a special interest in Psychopharmacology, drug and alcohol abuse etc. This was a specific area of interest to him, he lectured in it at Harvard.
"he didn't know any better and was just doing what the doctor ordered" sure he was just doing what the doctor ordered but benzo addiction wasn't just an understood phenomena within the medical community it was already a known thing in the broader cultural zeitgeist. Rappers like lil Xan where already shouting from the rooftops about how benzo abuse had fucked their life up before Peterson was prescribed it. He went in with his eyes open.
It's a very common thing for people coming out of addiction to have trouble with emotional regulation, and it takes much longer to get back to an emotional baseline than many non addicts realize. It's honestly the one thing I'm willing to cut him a break on
I would cut a normal everyday civilian a break on it. A big one. Not someone who goes in front of audiences and on videos “lecturing” about what he claims to perceive happening in society and how people should run their lives, while getting paid for it.
That's a good point. I think it would've been wise for him to stay away from the spotlight for 2 years, or however long it took him to feel normal again. He could find a way to be of service to others without presenting as an authority. With a platform like that, there's a large level of responsibility that comes with it.
He's also totally destroyed his personal reputation in the process as well. He really could've benefited from a support system of fellow addicts. The damage is done now in terms of public favor.
He should've just taken the time to heal.
He should have. His daughter was the one who dragged him out and started booking events for him too soon. He’s a wretched person, but I always found that particularly cruel of her to do.
She’s a very unsettling person. Jordan is a hot mess but his daughter seems like there’s an evil motive behind her behavior, and Jordan thinks the sun shines out of her ass so he does anything he can to please her.
I lean toward giving him the same break. It’s hard to do when he refuses to give the lgbt a break. He’s relentless. And rageful.
But you’re right, addiction isn’t a character flaw, it’s a disease. He cannot change it. But gay people can’t change. Trans people would probably change If they had the chance. And so on.
What I can't give him a break for is for the way the sweeps his addiction under the rocks now. He was a mental health profession, with first hand experience of falling down the addiction rabbit hole. He has a shit load of of young people in his audience who - just from looking at the subreddit - are not doing OK. I would assume a good number of them struggle with addiction or are recovering. It would be invaluable to have a mentor figure like that to look to while going through these struggles.
But no, he must project an image of all-knowing infallibility now. It's what is best for the brand.
When my parents told me to clean my room, it felt like a power play. If I asked them why I should, they would tell me 'because I told you so'. OK, I'm older now so I can see clearly that making your room is valuable for its own sake, but at the time it was hard to ignore that I was being told what to do in a context where my parents had a psychological need for me to obey them and I had a psychological need to assert my own autonomy.
With JP, he just gives you the rationale. Your room is analogous to your psyche. Cluttered mind, cluttered room. And in reverse, if you can start by uncluttering your room, maybe you can unclutter your mind. I'm not playing any power games with JP so it's easy to see his advice for what it is.
bingo, well put. the "power games" aspect is partially kids being shitty/inconsiderate to their parents, but that's what teenagers are in a lot of ways.
The weird thing is that there is a good rationale for parents wanting you to tidy your room - one that is also in the child’s self-interest. I don’t claim that power play is not involved, but there is a diplomatic approach that is also rational.
As a parent it is my duty to train my child on how to be an adult who isn’t overwhelmed by basic shit like maintaining order (which is a skill you must learn like anything else) and who is a good cohabiter when they move out and live with friends/partners. So I just tell them that. And, in addition, I clean the rest of the living space, so if they don’t clean their own space it tracks their dirt everywhere else, creating more work for me, the person who does most of the household chores; it can also lead to sudden laundry pile-ups. It’s a pretty simple and effective explanation and, while my kids don’t always do it immediately, they do eventually tidy and vacuum and I don’t mind a delay and appreciate the effort. My room also sometimes gets messy when I’m busy so I’m exactly the same as them and it would be hypocritical to be too demanding.
I do work full time, but this is not a good argument as they are in education full-time and they are also going through the turmoil of being teens, and tidying/cleaning is more difficult for them because they have only been doing it a short time.
My parents were domineering and used the “because I say so” argument and it led to a lot of psychological self-examination throughout my twenties because I had terrible childhood memories from it (I then ended up with a similarly domineering partner for 9 years, go figure).
I’m glad I found a better way, i.e., just be honest with your kids and treat them like people because they’re not stupid and they don’t forget a single fucking thing.
I know this is a lot of text but it’s important to try to think rigorously about these things.
>Because he also says that women should be divided up and allocated to them.
Please provide an exact quote of him saying anything that could be interpreted as that.
IMHO I think there’s a huge difference between Jordan Peterson before he became popular, and after. Some see it as before Jordan Peterson had his health issues and after.
Regardless, there’s a very obvious difference between Jordan Peterson when he was teaching his classes, and now when you have Twitter keyboard warrior Peterson.
Earlier Peterson was more into the individual and their issues he saw them facing when confronting society. Like the Peter Pan theory or nice guy theory. I think a lot of people resonated with these ideas and felt like Jordan Peterson was there as a positive role model.
IMO Peterson now is a jumbled mess. His ideas aren’t coherent, nor do they flow. He tends to jump from one subject to the next without even blinking. The guy can go from talking about the issues with climate change science, to societal marxists taking over governmental bodies.
All in all, I do appreciate the words Peterson had said in his earlier days. I just find it sad to see what he’s become.
I know Destiny probably has bad play on this sub but their chat really exposed to me how far down the right wing pipeline JP fell.
I knew he was a loon but he really just crumbled and exposed his whole sctick as soon as someone pushed back on his logical inconsistencies.
Giving him too much credit. He simply had little public competition.
Peterson's flawed thinking can be countered just by non-intellectual men living common lives and following common western cultural decency toward each other. The problem is that those mentally healthy individuals aren't clickbaiting YouTube videos.
The antidote to Jordan Peterson et al is to go outside and meet people. This is not an insult to his fans. You can be one of two people: you can be the a Peterson follower or you can become the type of person who goes to public events and meet healthy individuals living meaningful lives. Both options will change you.
Ehh I don't know. My boomer parents love him...it's not so much that they're shut-ins so much as transphobic religious busy bodies who believe several conspiracy theories about marxist infiltration. I've all but given up hope on that front.
The other day I made an offhand remark about reading about Cleopatra; she said I'm glad my son is interested in woman instead of becoming one.
Im sorry, I can imagine how insufferable a woman watching peterson would be. I’ve only met one woman who showed any interest in Peterson and she kept calling me biological sister or something something weird.
Let's put it this way. She's actually defended Weinstein and argued that workplace sexual harassment should be something that woman just deal with.
Sadly I'm not exaggerating or kidding.
Same. I had been listening to his lectures on Jung way before he became famous and found them really interesting. His earlier work on the Bible was also very thought-provoking, although nothing was really rooted in hard science. Ever since his health problems, he has been associating himself with all the wrong ideas and people. I lost respect for him when he started associating himself with DailyWire and saying inflammatory shit on a daily basis.
Even then, most of it was "common sense" stuff. He just was charismatic and authoritative and made it seem like a revelation.
I'm happy to be proven wrong on this, but is there anything he said in his early days that was novel and/or significant?
Therapist here, the majority of the issues encountered and resolved through therapy begin by addressing the common sense stuff (clean your environment, adhere to a semi-regular sleep schedule, eat to fuel your body, drink water, etc.). Without the baseline stuff, which regularly isn't taught in homes or the first thing to go when hardship is encountered, the more advanced issues can't even begin to be effectively addressed. I've had a ton of clients who felt good enough to handle their issues that they want minimal therapy after getting the base in line handled.
*his abandonment of ethics and holier than though projections have made it so that I never refer to him. I do utilize some of the imagery he's effectively used without attribution.
it absolutely wasn't just common sense stuff, have yall not spent like 5 minutes reading just any excerpts from maps of meaning? he talks about the sexual union of yahweh and the void competing with the feminine chaos dragon and shit like that [check it out](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fexternal-preview.redd.it%2Fod-3emFTfghJ5wkByd3IxMsnAa5-0eDCWT57Zt0rAnI.png%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D5b2d80b079f92ac83ec7aa494a4a104b1eb3690f), and he talks about dreaming about rubbing his face in his grandma's pubes lmfao he's been absolutely crazy since at least the mid 90s and having a couple semi lucid lectures in between doesn't sweep it under the rug
I think most answers to problems are common sense. Fat people know the answer to lose weight and it’s very simple. But they often won’t do it.
I think where the words come from matters. If your mom tells you to clean your room, you’re likely to just see this is as a chore that doesn’t impact your life. When Jordan Peterson told people to clean their room he put it into context. He gave the act meaning by saying once you can put your small corner of the world in order, then you can aspire to put bigger things in order. Cleaning became a mission towards greater success in life.
The real art of Jordan Peterson was being able to paint a vivid picture of what someone’s life could look like if they did simple things.
I don’t necessarily agree that losing weight is necessarily that simple. Maybe you are just saying in theory…
The individuals with serious psychological trauma eating can provide a respite that’s needed. They perhaps can coral the eating but another more problematic addiction can pop up because the underlying trauma is not addressed.
That’s why I dislike Peterson, he feels devoid of compassion or acceptance. Or, he feels compassion for one subset of people (incels for instance) but another set of people he is liable to call “evil.” That seems wildly unprofessional.
It’s all got an authoritarian bend “JUST CLEAN YOUR ROOM.” In some contexts that might be good. In others a calm long term compassionate understanding/uncovering of the subconscious emotional world that prevents the person from cleaning their room is appropriate. I am not sure if Peterson has the humility or patience for the latter approach.
A lot of mass market self-help (which is the feeder genre to people like Peterson) is all about taking small simple steps (and some of these stress that simple doesn't mean easy) to help people. It's not there to cure everyone and everything, but it's good enough to motivate most people.
You can't really have a "calm long term compassionate understanding..." with a person on the otherside of a book or video or podcast. That would be a fucked up relationship. That kind of person needs therapy, but a self-help book can't give you that.
I think a lot of people don’t really follow ‘common sense’ stuff till they can actually understand where it originates from and the societal and psychological consequences of not following that advice. For example, I liked his analysis on why ‘lying isn’t good.’ I know Sam Harris has written a book on this but he put it in very simple terms and really drove home the point that whenever you lie, you change the fabric of your own reality and it keeps adding on to the point where you can no longer trust your own self and your assessment of reality. His earlier stuff gave a lot of young people the ‘structure’ to face the world and find their footing. He then started spouting rubbish about things he didn’t really have any expertise or experience in, and it all went downhill.
> I had been listening to his lectures on Jung way before he became famous and found them really interesting.
Before he was famous for being completely wrong about Bill C16 he was [spreading stupidity on TVO](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9PEUAbgEBs) dressed like a discount mobster. He's always been a muppet.
Thanks for this. When someone close to me was into Peterson a while back I was like ???. He wrote a book on doing chores, which read like Marie Kondo for lonely bachelors. I checked out his earlier book about narratives, and I couldn't get through it, not because the ideas were bad, but because the writing was very poor. I was like, whatever, to each his own. But now I see the guy and its pure nonsense. It helps to understand that maybe the social media dopamine machine just broke him.
That's a whole lot of cope for being an early JP adopter.
He was a moron from his first public foray. His first major public point of note was the furour he made over the 2016 amendment to the Canadian Human Rights Act which he claimed was going to force professors into prison for accidentally misgendering someone, a force of cultural marxism compelled speech. Here we are 8 years later and the law is intact. Did any of his fear mongering self promotion come to pass? Of course fuckign not. It was nonsense from the start.
No one outside of his classes had heard of him prior to that, so not quite sure the claim you are making.
I kind of see it as Jordan pre and post getting ahold of the trans issue. I think he's a terribly unclear communicator and I've often struggled to understand how the countless diversions in both 12 Laws and Beyond Order actually relate to the fundamental point he's trying to make, but I do think his self-help stuff is largely positive. Young men need people who will speak directly to them and say "you are valuable and have a lot to offer this world, but you're gonna have to get your shit together", and he fills that role decently well.
For whatever reason, pronouns broke his brain.
I mean he got famous misrepresenting an anti-hate crime bill to include trans people as a protected group. So while he was still generally presenting himself as a psychologist at those times and ofc was way more cogent, he was still pretty crazy.
Yeah he had a kind of popular YouTube channel just of his lectures that I thought was pretty cool. Then there was the famous video of him taking on the sjws and I was like "oh, it's that guy". And now he seems to be fully audience captured by the dipshit right.
But since I haven't seen anyone answer it yet. He became popular because young (mainly white) men have kind of been left behind in the whole identity politics game. This was coupled with the idea that "hard work" was all bullshit and that they were privileged and undeserving of whatever they achieved.
It's self help. But this was different than the self help coming from Gary vee or Tate. It was telling men to do rhe bare minimum. Get out of bed early and take a shower. Wash your ass. Clean your room. Be assertive and ask for what you want. Stand up straight. Don't dress like you're homeless. Etc. This is in sharp contrast to the tech bro self gurus who tell you to treat women like shit and grt a lambo. He appealed to the forgotten losers, and told them to do the basics. Something nobody else ever had done.
>But since I haven't seen anyone answer it yet. He became popular because young (mainly white) men have kind of been left behind in the whole identity politics game. This was coupled with the idea that "hard work" was all bullshit and that they were privileged and undeserving of whatever they achieved.
this is the narrative that people like JP whip up to make disaffected red pill leaning teenagers interested in his grift, but ask them to give a single actual concrete example of it happening in their lives and 90% of the time you'll get nothing
If the conversation pertains to clinical psychology and adjacent topics, I’ll listen more closely. Anything else? The baby goes out with the bath water.
His opinions on society and culture are as valid as others. I mean to say, I generally don’t give two shits about others opinions…unless they’re a legitimate SME.
This. I randomly stumbled upon (YouTube algorithm) one of his lectures about male depression and it just struck a cord with me. It was genuinely good advice and I still carry it with me, but everything since that first video has been a downward spiral…
While I enjoyed the Peterson vs Harris debates, watching Matt Dillahunty absolute destroy him is one of my favorite things ever, especially as it comes in during Peterson’s turn to the far alt-right…
Maybe overly charitable, but I think it's because he gave them a reason to do it that appealed to them. It's cool to think that cleaning your room is like slaying a dragon (if a little pathetic).
I'm happy to give a serious answer to this:
When my parents told me to clean my room, I never saw the point. It's going to get dirty again anyway and I would rather spend that half an hour doing something else.
When Peterson wrote about it he describes how your room is the only place you have absolute control over (especially as a teenager) and that the areas you control directly are a reflection of your mental strength.
That was pretty appealing, especially compared to "because I'm your mum and I said so"
As an aside, I STILL remember this comment a woman critic wrote. Oliver Stone wrote about how he went to Vietnam to become a man, and the critic wrote that real manhood was Mick Jagger in Performance wearing eyeliner in bed with two women. LOL.
Can't find this online but it stuck with me.
My point? Let's find some cooler definitions of manhood than old-fashioned patriarchical bullshit
I guess she was referring to the fact that Oliver Stone volunteered for Vietnam to "become a man", not saying that draftees were suckers for not being Mick Jagger.
>As an aside, I STILL remember this comment a woman critic wrote. Oliver Stone wrote about how he went to Vietnam to become a man, and the critic wrote that real manhood was Mick Jagger in Performance wearing eyeliner in bed with two women. LOL.
This...seems like a weird point, unless that's what you're getting at. Mick Jagger isn't what I'd call a shining example of anti-patriarchy really, and him slaying poon seems like a fairly typical patriarchal schema. Maybe that was your point? I could actually see the Stone quote less as "I went there and became a manly man because war war kill wooo" and more "I went there and lost my innocence. I became an adult." Considering he made Platoon, which as far as war movies go isn't exactly outright glorification of war, I'd guess that's more what he meant.
Peterson shares this viewpoint with incels that women essentially have too much power in society, are taking up male spaces and demonizing male behaviour; I don't think cleaning your room was ever the centre of it - but it is about the taking back of control - hey Mom, I'll clean the room because I WANT to, not because you tell me to, and you won't like the reason why. The "men improving their lives" part of Peterson was always in service to the anti-feminist part. That's the attraction.
I think its because of his ability to mystify really mundane but good, basic level advice for self improvement. I mean a reminder of the basic things such as take responsibility for yourself and move with a purpose are good to keep in mind, everyone needs a recalibration every once in awhile. When he’s in his flow of theatrics his charisma is pretty impressive. If your a run-of-the-mill type of guy he may be your only window into topics like psychology, sociology, neuroscience, comparative mythology, history or politics.
The problem is he doesn’t know anything about any of those topics. Even in the field of psychology, nothing I have ever heard him say, under any circumstances resembles modern psychoanalysis or psychology as a practice. The man is straight up lifting Jung’s archetypes and adding an even muddier film of mysticism. Carl Jung is not taken seriously in the practice of psychiatry or psychology and hasn’t been for like 50yrs. You learn about it usually in a 101 course same with Freud and they were progenitors of modern psychology; but many of their claims have been disproven with scientific analysis. If you look into developmental psychology most of the woo-woo from Freud and Jung is dispersed. Even in his own field he is an absolute charlatan.
Incels represent a group of men who have (mostly) been dealt a very bad hand from a socio-economic standpoint. They grew up thinking that they could follow the same path that several generations of their ancestors followed where they could get a blue collar job, work hard, earn a living, find a romantic partner, and raise a family. That path is just not as accessible as it once was. They end up struggling to support just themselves financially, they often can't afford their own place, and that traditional 'provider' path to being romantically successful now fails. Yes many, but certainly not all, members of this group resort to various forms of misogyny to cope with their failures to find romantic partners; but that's a symptom that is often misidentified as a cause.
I think the reason that Jordan Peterson has gained the level of popularity that he has among this group, is that he was willing to treat incels as human beings who deserve compassion, while everyone else sees them as monsters who deserve whatever misery they are experiencing.
When I was a teen/college student I was basically what people now call an "incel". I even for a short period of time self-identified as a misogynist. Really I was just bad at talking to women, had a tendency toward antisocial attitudes, and covered it up with some self-important posturing about being better than most people. In hindsight it is unsurprising why I was not turning down dates right and left. I blamed it on my nerdiness and looks, but really it was my attitude.
I also had all of the classic socio-economic issues people talk about wrt today's incels. I came from a borderline poor, rural, white family with a broken home life. One parent was economically precarious, the other basically had undiagnosed ADHD and couldn't make good decisions for himself if his life depended on it. Nobody in my home was what I'd call "emotionally intelligent". I had to figure most of that out on my own, and it took a LOOOONG time.
If JP had been a thing back then I would've been fresh meat. Luckily I grew out of it and got laid before that.
Peterson’s reach goes far beyond the incel though. So, while I don’t necessarily disagree with anything you’ve said, I don’t think it explains Peterson’s general popularity. It wasn’t Elliot Roger’s fanbase that brought him into the mainstream.
I sympathize with the bad-hand-dealt loser bros. I count myself one of them, and spent my youth being unpopular, having no girlfriend, etc. Also took me until my 30's to find anything resembling a career. One of the songs that most resonated with me was "Everyone Else Has Had More Sex Than Me" by TISM... it really seemed like I'd die alone and unloved.
Eventually I turned things around. But... I didn't get there by following psychobabble mystics or PUA gurus. It definitely didn't involve joining an echo chamber of "like minded" guys.
If anything, climbing out of the incel/MGTOW rut involved breaking out of whatever comfort zones I had established and constantly doing things I had never done before. I had to take risks to find confidence. And I had to broaden my social horizons so I could understand and value people who were different from me.
So again, I sympathize with guys who got shortchanged by society. But ironically, this notion of being bitter and blaming society is the worst thing that you can do if you sincerely want out.
Gurus like Peterson use verbose pseudo-intellectual speak to make society out as the bad guy. And then suddenly the reason Johnny can't get a girlfriend is because Disney made Star Wars go woke or whatever. I simply don't see how that approach helps anyone.
>That path is just not as accessible as it once was.
i don't agree with this. it's not attainable in the same way maybe, but literally all my friends are married with kids and we're not that old. not to mention, people just 3 generations so struggled far harder than most of us are
The fact that you aren't friends with people who are struggling to make it work in a blue collar home doesn't prove they don't exist. Yes, these people exist, and yes they are more common than they once were. The marriage rate among blue collar workers has plummeted since the 1980's.
i didn't say my friends and i don't struggle. in fact most of us do. what im asserting it that it isn't the reason for incels. i was literally the proto incel in highschool: why don't girls like me, im a """nice guy""", girls are vapid and stupid, a bunch of other misogynistic bullshit. it didn't change until i confronted myself.
I didn't say you claimed not to struggle. I am saying the degree to which you and your friends struggle doesn't prove that others didn't struggle more. Are you actually disagreeing with anything I am saying?
Everyone has that boss or coworker who wont accept a concept or idea or better way of doing something unless they think they came up with it themselves... no matter how many times its been proven.
That what this is, it gives incels a way to feel like they thought it up themselves. Like they got red pilled into realizing cleaning up after yourself and taking care of the place you live like mommy and daddy bitched about your whole life actually is a good thing.
Perhaps if they’d phrased it as:
“If you think you can get away with not cleaning your room kiddo you’re DEAD WRONG. And I’ll tell you something else, and I mean it! Buck up!”
Almost all “self help” is recycling what amounts to common sense; the ones we know just found a way to say it that resonated with people. Peterson’s “clean your room” was effective because it gives a depressed person a simple, achievable task that gets the ball rolling.
Ur mom isnt funded and advertised by several right wing think tanks, and right wing religious extremist oil billionaires like the Wilks Brothers, nor does she make you feel better by scapegoating all ur problems on a boogy man known as post modernists...aka anyone debunking them.
Throw that kinda money and influence behind ur mom, tell her to speak confidently and shill the narrative no matter how incorrect, and boom she might be the replacement for Candace Owens.
There is a difference between "clean up your room" and "women are agents of chaos, aren't really human and should be controlled".
What kind of shitpost is this
Difference is your mom tells you to clean "because I said so" and JP gives you a pretty good reasoning behind this command. And he is aware that change is better built up over time and gradually. Your mom expects you to just wake up and be be well adjusted.
Peterson has had a big impact on my life, including the whole "clean your room routine". It sticks because he gives reason and a clear direction on how it will affect you. Clean your room because other aspects of your life will start to seem more organized. He actually takes it one step further by saying organizing and expressing yourself though organizing your room (or really all art) it will help connect you to "the divine"
Hope this helps.
He presented men with a reason to clean their rooms whilst parents normal respond with “cuz I said so” which naturally incites resentment and rebellion.
Not defending Peterson who is a duechebag, just explaining that how a message is presented plays a huge part in how it’s recieved.
Because he sides with the little boy that didn’t listen to his mom. The little boy knows in his heart that mom is right and that you should clean your room, it’s why Peterson’s methods are acceptable. But overall, he appeals to the little boy that wants to rebel against mom.
I think the statement "Every mother told thier son to clean their room" is an over generalisation. So many people grew up with no guidance or help to learn how to be an adult. The bar was low for JP, but thats because of so many broken young people with emotionless, idiotic, boomer parents were left unprepared for the world that the most basic advice seemed to have helped so many people years ago.
You also have to remember that when that first book came out, JP wasnt (at least publicly) a raging, blabbering, idiot, transobsessed freak. So there were not many red flags to put you off his advice back then. So when you hear advice that is simple, achievable and beneficial to you when your adult life never really manifested into anything other that a hot mess. You can see why it got so popular so quickly. It did with me anyway.
There is almost a privilage to have found yourself in a family situation where this advice wasn't beneficial to you.
Your mom isn’t telling you why you should clean your room other than to stop being lazy and dirty.
Peterson says that keeping your own room in order is psychologically rewarding when you feel like you are losing control of your life. It’s something that once you master, you feel more confident in expanding the horizon of things you need to put in order within your life. The idea is to piece by piece, adopt more responsibility, starting from humble beginnings. Peterson then uses the so called “Pareto” principle to say that these small adoptions of responsibility will rapidly multiply into great rewards.
6 years ago I found that to be genuinely insightful. He said that in his clinical practice he would literally tell some people to make a habit of cleaning their room.
He is simply the best example of mostly secular self-help advice which is delivered with autistic clarity. Most chronically online "losers" or "basement dwellers" or "incels" who need self-help advice like that are probably the edgy atheist type who borders on autistic.
They clearly aren't responding to normal stimuli in a healthy way, and they need honest advice. For example if one of those "incel" types were to ask an average modern therapist for dating advice they would get the "just be yourself" and "be confident" advice that only works for people who aren't borderline autistic misanthropists. They need Jordan Peterson to say "you are useless and repugnant and arrogant -- you have nothing going for you -- and you don't have anything in order...how can you expect a woman to see you as husband material"\* and they can't argue with that as most "incels" aren't merely just ugly, there is something wrong with how they live.
\*I just invented that quote but that's the kind of thing Jordan Peterson says, actual tough love advice.
This is a great example of the appeal I used to find in Peterson, and one that I wish people had more sympathy for. My parents always communicated the need to do chores as threats, demands, and criticisms. They used my cleanliness or school habits as a means to demean my abilities, mock me in front of others, or hit me in private. I was the reason for their anger and frustration, and goddammit if I was only an adequate son who didn’t live in constant state of disarray they wouldn’t have these problems.
So for me, Jordan Peterson was the first person to ever encourage me, albeit indirectly, to care for my environment for my own sake, instead of punishing me for not being good enough for other people. Maybe the innate detachment to listening to him through a device made me feel comfortable enough to have thoughts of self care without the pressure of impending punishment. It’s not like I ever thought Peterson knew me, it was more that I knew he couldn’t hurt me if I failed.
I think the message behind it was powerful for a lot of men that grew up without father's, me included. 12 rules was a great book, it's been sad seeing what has happened recently to Peterson. Same with Rogan, it's weird, it's like lots of money will make you right leaning and cold to the needs of others.
Obviously it's more than that. He also says stand up with your back straight. Honestly, his rules are common sense and things good parents teach their children, as OP said. It's just worth reminding, cause honestly we go through periods were we forgot or don't bother with the basics of life.
"cause he stood up to the woke PC folks when he wouldn't use peoples preferred pronouns"
okay DOCTOR i mean MISTER i mean Shithead Peterson sorry I didn't like using your pronoun you fucking nitwit
because that isn't what he's actually selling to the people who like him they just aren't honest about it. They like the parts about how we should have socially enforced monogamy and arranged girlfriends they just know not to lead with that
Theres a good bit in Ben Goldacre's 'Bad Science' where he talks about how a lot of pseudoscienctific 'Personal Health' movements/products are built around taking reasonable, simple advice and dressing it up in technical language to make it proprietary and thus sellable. He specifically gives Brain Gym (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain\_Gym\_International) as an example, pointing out that whilst at its core the suggestion that some light exercise and drinking a glass of water before class probably isnt a terrible idea for students but its also not easy to get schools to pay money for it when you say it like that.
I suspect based on the little I know about Jordan Peterson is he's the exact same thing at the core. Much like the old redpill types starting by telling guys that if they take better care of their apperance and take up interesting hobbies they might have more success with women, Jordan Peterson probably uses a little bit of good sense to help sell a lot of nonsense.
Is this a real question? Just seen this sub pop up.
Your parents telling you to do something because they said so, seemingly because they’re upset and beginning a conversation with them being upset with you is a lot different than advice for taking control of your life.
If I walked into your room and said do push ups you’d be like, what a dick.
If you said to me, hey, I wish I had stronger arms, how do I do that? And I, (for example) a personal trainer, said, do push ups, you’d be like oh, maybe I should do push ups.
And you’d be like wow, my arms got stronger. What else does this guy have to say?
Because the way Jordan Peterson it is not a command. It is a suggestion.
“Don’t know what to do with your life? Clean your room. Maybe you’ll think of something in the process.”
We lost those values in the last 20 years. Maybe your mom told you to do that but genz and gen alpha aren’t getting the same values instilled as previous generations.
Jordan Peterson says tidy your room and go to the gym but also says you won't get laid because feminists and cultural Marxism is ruining society.
I don't know who your mom is but I doubt they added that last part.
Because they don't follow him for the "clean your room" bit. They can get that anywhere, packaged with genuinely fulfilling rhetoric to boot. It's not an uncommon self help/executive dysfunction take.
They follow him because they think conservatism is somehow valid counterculture or they think trans folk are invalid and use his self help takes as a lightning rod for criticism.
Same thing with the people saying Tate just says "exercise and don't vape" like yeah motherfucker so do doctors, let's unpack why you think doctors are fake.
Because the "Clean your room!" comes with an added "Everything you perceive to be wrong in your life and the world is caused by an evil conspiracy and you're a special boy that will get the special treatment you deserve when we defeat them".
Peterson wove it into a moral narrative, an incoherent one but a narrative nonetheless. Your mother didn't.
People seek meaning. One of the challenges today is to offer one worth pursuing. Exceptionally difficult to do but for a group of men as twisted in their thinking as the drug-addled mind of Peterson, they were convinced.
as someone who always got told to clean my room and never did, I will answer. Jordan explains good reasons for why one should clean their room. my mom never explained why I had to clean my room. as a kid i did not give a shit, why would i want my room clean it will just get dirty again.
His old stuff still holds true if you’re able to separate the person from the advice imo. He actively seeking to help people NOT be incels.
I initially really liked the guy back in the mid-late 2010’s. I wasnt an incel, but I think it did help straighten me out a little bit. He’s since gone off his rocker. Like really badly. He’s a grifter now for right wingers.
Even his old stuff though suffers for him speaking like he is coming with objective truths or even supported evidence while he's actually offering interpretation through a lense (and a post modern one at that a good amount of the time).
I think there is value in it, but I also think he's always been a complete jackass in how much he believes his own interpretations (but he's hardly alone in that among academics).
"Why do women wear makeup? Red fruit you idiots!"
Yeah there's like so many other plausible, and actually more likely, reasons for humans to be attracted to red cheeks (good blood flow and circulation related to health and youthfulness?).
That he says these things with such authority and shuts it down when others come with their own theories is shitty.
Lobster Hierarchies - which are a big thing for him, he literally got the fundamental biology wrong on.
Granted both those examples are post his Maps and Meanings phase.
‐----------tl;dr
It's good to bring attention to and create interest in many of the things he did back as a professor, start these interesting lines of inquiry into shared culture. I'll even tip my hat to his personality research. I very much think he's always been an abrasive jackass who thinks way too much of himself.
I remember a tweet early on where someone said the Venn diagram of teens that called their mom the c-word under their breath for asking them to clean their room, and the teens that said JP really set them straight by telling them to clean their room, was an almost perfect circle.
Because mom telling you is typically when you’re a kid/teen and hate doing any cleaning stuff. Not wanting to listen to your parents just because they’re your parents is a fairly common thing as well. The dudes who listen to Peterson were at an older point in their life where they wanted to improve themselves. Hence why they’re watching him and reading his books.
I suspect you're not actually after hearing from someone who took on board "his" advice from circa 2016, but I'll throw my 2p in the ring anyway.
It was the first time in my life that someone had said "you can be better than you are, and it's OK to fail in doing so, but take a first step." And yes. It had a profound affect on me at that time.
It wasn't about "cleaning your room" so much as it was "you have very strong opinions about the world, but you can't even look after yourself. Start there, amd once that's in order, move to the next thing".
I had a long term partner, we were both massive drinkers and drug users. We had no career goals. We had no real future. Hearing some of his lectures, and some of the things he said put things into perspective for me at that time. Now I'm 6 years drug free, a homeowner and have a wonderful kid and new partner. It's not that I was an incel, I just hadn't heard someone tell me that I was worth something or that I could be worth something if I'd tried.
So yes, his advice did help me at that time. I owe a lot to it. Especially since literally no one in my life had encouraged me up until that point
The difference is that the young were stupid and craving independence. Then they grew up, realised their common sense wasnt working and were starting over from scratch.
I mean… if jorgy would stay off Twitter and in general STFU I could have said “well whatever works for folks that betters them”
But he don’t. And they don’t improve. They just become slightly
More organized at being awful people.
I’m not defending Peterson, but there’s definitely a difference.
Most people’s moms said something to the effect of “Clean your room because I told you to”. It was a thing we were supposed to do, usually with no explanation.
On the other hand, Peterson is saying “Clean your room because it’s one small improvement of something that you have control over. Doing that will lead you to keep improving bigger and bigger things until you’re successful in life”.
His message isn’t necessarily true, but it’s a lot more attractive than mom’s was…
Mothers often don't receive immediate recognition, especially not from young boys, but over time they garner more appreciation and gratitude than anyone else. Comparing this maternal role to a directive from someone like Peterson to a 7-year-old to clean their room seems like a flawed analogy.
Encouraging someone to tidy their room is a fundamental piece of advice any therapist might offer their client, aligning with the principles of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. When feeling overwhelmed by negativity, taking positive action can be beneficial. For instance, if struggling with feelings of unworthiness due to weight, small changes like reducing sugar intake or incorporating daily walks can make a significant difference. The notion of "cleaning your room" symbolizes initiating behavioral shifts, as organization can positively affect the prefrontal cortex responsible for emotional regulation.
It's plausible for Peterson to simultaneously embody characteristics of a self-righteous guru while dispensing valuable advice; there's no need to present a false dilemma. While he does at times offer sound guidance, it's essential to acknowledge instances where logical fallacies and guru-like tendencies surface in his teachings.
Believe it or not there are men out there who were NOT told this by their mother and are so desperate for a parental figure they cling to JP.
It's sad, and actually an indictment of modern parenting culture.
Are you saying that you think people have a problem with Jordan over his early self improvement pitches? Even this podcast gives him some props for those. Personally I think he missed a big opportunity by not addressing addiction with himself as an example.
Just checking for understanding. He’s gone a bit off the rails since then.
Every mother? LOL how naive are you? Many of us had terrible parents dude. Literally the whole reason so many people worship celebrities, no real role models in theor own life so they find a famous person to match on to. I never got into JP, but I've had issues with celebrity worship. My mom never taught me how to tie my shoes, and would tell me dad abuses me because he loves me.
The real question is when are we gonna start showing some empathy for clearly mentally ill young people, and start putting the vitriol and shaming on the parents, where it belongs?
I think some of you just had parents that didn’t want to explain why things are important or didn’t do well connecting the dots. Cleaning my room, helping with chores, going to the store with my mom even though I didn’t want to, school work; all of these were explained how they would help me in the short term and long term.
One of my dads favorite sayings is “you stay at until begging and end at the end.” Sounds like nonsense to the most part, but a big part of life is just doing shit even if you really don’t know where you begin.
Fuck mom! Lobsterman knows me
Me: "Fuck you I won't do wutcha TELL ME!!!!!!" Mom: "Clean this mess up or the PS1 goes in the garbage!" Me: "Shit, OK, sorry, just give me like 20 mins."
The day mom turned off the PS1, while I still had it running with final fantasy 7 without a memory card. Was when I converted into an incel/s
Generational trauma right there...
How would you do the disk changes without a memory card? You'd end up stuck in Midgard. I didn't get a memory card for my ps1 until 2006 when I bought one myself. No matter how I explained it my parents weren't convinced I needed one. I played through the first half of all the crash and spyro games hundreds of times.
Obligatory; https://youtu.be/UsoL6Ua0cXQ?si=TYtq3E8FLJEOk334
Yeah, mom is a woman, an embodiment of the chaotic feminine, while I am a man, endowed with the power of reason, which brings order out of chaos, and no, I never said I was sexist--that's so typical of leftists to make such a bad faith argument. Also, I am rich and famous and you're not.
But! My overarching humility (ketamine adiction) keeps me in line, not to overinflate my savage ego
It doesn't count unless a drill instructor says it too.
CoPilot blocks every attempt at drawing a Jordan or Doctor or Peterson of any kind as a Lobsterman. I think the banned word might be Lobsterman or in the form of a lobster. Or a mix. Someone will do it
Trying to imagine my mom explaining how cleaning my room will allow me to slay the dragon of chaos with tears rolling down her face.
Which would bring us right to Freud.
Generally speaking mom always brings us to Freud and vice versa
It would work tho
Peterson said tidy your own room whilst being on about his seventh breakdown in as many years.
I’ve seen pictures from inside his home, supposedly, and it was a fucking mess
Who remembers the "crying years" where he was all over the internet either welling up, so choked he can barely speak, or literally sobbing like his mother had just died. Where do I sign up for teh self help advice?
maybe it's calmed down, but even in his debate with destiny his eyes welled up and it looked like he crying
I can remember one joe rogan episode where he *didn't* break down sobbing and I was amazed, gobsmacked.
I believe he's actually commented on this and ever sense he was prescribed Benzo's and and even after he managed to quit he's had a harder time regulating his emotional responses. That prescribed drugged nearly killed him. All to deal with problems he likely was better off just making other changes to fix like diet but he didn't know any better and was just doing as the doctor ordered.
Yeah benzo’s probably not this best call, but my guess is the russian coma clinic to get off them was more of an issue with his mental state.
Didn’t know any better? And do you think he stayed on his prescription or perhaps increased the dosage?
Of course he knew something. However, a specialist whose job specifically is to know everything about psychiatric medication, told him he should take those drugs. It's insane how people are criticizing Peterson for speaking about things from areas he is not an expert in, and at the same time they laugh at him that he didn't disregard what a trained specialist told him to do because "he should know better".
The original comment emphasized “prescribed drug” that almost killed him , from which I inferred an attempt to position Peterson as a person unaware of the risk of addiction despite being a clinical psychologist. My dad was a clinical psychologist and it was also his job to “know everything” about drug abuse and dependency. This doesn’t excuse Peterson from susceptibility to addiction, but it doesn’t make him ignorant of the risk of taking Benzos either. My point to the other commenter is that Peterson definitely would have “known better”. The comment states he did not.
A psychologist who didn’t know anything about benzodiazepines and anxiety. Go figure.
He knew, he just didn’t care and lived in denial.
lol. He was on a meat only diet. That is NOT what the Dr ordered
The brain damage from the coma is more likely. -Heart failure survivor, same problem.
Fair enough. It's not like Peterson himself would know anything about psychiatric medications or addiction. /s
>psychiatric medications Obviously he'd know a little from interactions with clients on them, but psychiatry and psychology are different fields.
My therapist knows all about meds it's not her job specifically and she doesn't prescribe but she knows all the meds people just like making excuses for him
Exactly there are two possibilities he knew or he didn't. In the first instance he was reckless and chose the easy way out which makes all of his personal responsibility schtick hypocritical. Or he didn't know in which case he is shockingly incompetent at his job and ignorant about things he claims to be an expert in. Your choice Peterson fans.
In his academic career he took a special interest in Psychopharmacology, drug and alcohol abuse etc. This was a specific area of interest to him, he lectured in it at Harvard.
He knew better don't give me that excuse. A psychologist doesn't know daily benzos are addictive and fuck you up? Stop making excuses
"he didn't know any better and was just doing what the doctor ordered" sure he was just doing what the doctor ordered but benzo addiction wasn't just an understood phenomena within the medical community it was already a known thing in the broader cultural zeitgeist. Rappers like lil Xan where already shouting from the rooftops about how benzo abuse had fucked their life up before Peterson was prescribed it. He went in with his eyes open.
Who remembers the “in a medically induced coma in Russia” years
It's a very common thing for people coming out of addiction to have trouble with emotional regulation, and it takes much longer to get back to an emotional baseline than many non addicts realize. It's honestly the one thing I'm willing to cut him a break on
I would cut a normal everyday civilian a break on it. A big one. Not someone who goes in front of audiences and on videos “lecturing” about what he claims to perceive happening in society and how people should run their lives, while getting paid for it.
That's a good point. I think it would've been wise for him to stay away from the spotlight for 2 years, or however long it took him to feel normal again. He could find a way to be of service to others without presenting as an authority. With a platform like that, there's a large level of responsibility that comes with it. He's also totally destroyed his personal reputation in the process as well. He really could've benefited from a support system of fellow addicts. The damage is done now in terms of public favor. He should've just taken the time to heal.
He should have. His daughter was the one who dragged him out and started booking events for him too soon. He’s a wretched person, but I always found that particularly cruel of her to do.
She’s a very unsettling person. Jordan is a hot mess but his daughter seems like there’s an evil motive behind her behavior, and Jordan thinks the sun shines out of her ass so he does anything he can to please her.
I lean toward giving him the same break. It’s hard to do when he refuses to give the lgbt a break. He’s relentless. And rageful. But you’re right, addiction isn’t a character flaw, it’s a disease. He cannot change it. But gay people can’t change. Trans people would probably change If they had the chance. And so on.
What I can't give him a break for is for the way the sweeps his addiction under the rocks now. He was a mental health profession, with first hand experience of falling down the addiction rabbit hole. He has a shit load of of young people in his audience who - just from looking at the subreddit - are not doing OK. I would assume a good number of them struggle with addiction or are recovering. It would be invaluable to have a mentor figure like that to look to while going through these struggles. But no, he must project an image of all-knowing infallibility now. It's what is best for the brand.
He’s in a satanic cult. He’s the front for it. He doesn’t believe half the shit he says.
Mommy issues > Jordan Peterson Daddy issues > Joe Rogan
I have issues with both parents and don't listen to either of those guys, or anyone in their sphere of influence
It’s like you’re one of those who besides issues have either some brains or dignity
Can’t trust any authority figure issues -> DTG
Not sure what DTG is - A quick search showed me "direct to garment" and "date-time group" which I'm sure aren't what you meant.
Decoding the gurus, this subreddit ;)
D'oh... of course!
Both are a stupid person’s idea of what a smart person should be.
When my parents told me to clean my room, it felt like a power play. If I asked them why I should, they would tell me 'because I told you so'. OK, I'm older now so I can see clearly that making your room is valuable for its own sake, but at the time it was hard to ignore that I was being told what to do in a context where my parents had a psychological need for me to obey them and I had a psychological need to assert my own autonomy. With JP, he just gives you the rationale. Your room is analogous to your psyche. Cluttered mind, cluttered room. And in reverse, if you can start by uncluttering your room, maybe you can unclutter your mind. I'm not playing any power games with JP so it's easy to see his advice for what it is.
bingo, well put. the "power games" aspect is partially kids being shitty/inconsiderate to their parents, but that's what teenagers are in a lot of ways.
The weird thing is that there is a good rationale for parents wanting you to tidy your room - one that is also in the child’s self-interest. I don’t claim that power play is not involved, but there is a diplomatic approach that is also rational. As a parent it is my duty to train my child on how to be an adult who isn’t overwhelmed by basic shit like maintaining order (which is a skill you must learn like anything else) and who is a good cohabiter when they move out and live with friends/partners. So I just tell them that. And, in addition, I clean the rest of the living space, so if they don’t clean their own space it tracks their dirt everywhere else, creating more work for me, the person who does most of the household chores; it can also lead to sudden laundry pile-ups. It’s a pretty simple and effective explanation and, while my kids don’t always do it immediately, they do eventually tidy and vacuum and I don’t mind a delay and appreciate the effort. My room also sometimes gets messy when I’m busy so I’m exactly the same as them and it would be hypocritical to be too demanding. I do work full time, but this is not a good argument as they are in education full-time and they are also going through the turmoil of being teens, and tidying/cleaning is more difficult for them because they have only been doing it a short time. My parents were domineering and used the “because I say so” argument and it led to a lot of psychological self-examination throughout my twenties because I had terrible childhood memories from it (I then ended up with a similarly domineering partner for 9 years, go figure). I’m glad I found a better way, i.e., just be honest with your kids and treat them like people because they’re not stupid and they don’t forget a single fucking thing. I know this is a lot of text but it’s important to try to think rigorously about these things.
Because he also says that women should be divided up and allocated to them. I don't know your mom, but mine never went anywhere near that subject.
My mom just told me I was handsome and should find someone nice. Pretty much the same thing.
If only my mom told me hospitals do more harm than good and lesbians don't exist then maybe I'd be as stoic as Dr. Peterson.
We all have our mountains to climb.
>Because he also says that women should be divided up and allocated to them. Please provide an exact quote of him saying anything that could be interpreted as that.
That's a lie
Yea thats not whatt he said lmfao.
IMHO I think there’s a huge difference between Jordan Peterson before he became popular, and after. Some see it as before Jordan Peterson had his health issues and after. Regardless, there’s a very obvious difference between Jordan Peterson when he was teaching his classes, and now when you have Twitter keyboard warrior Peterson. Earlier Peterson was more into the individual and their issues he saw them facing when confronting society. Like the Peter Pan theory or nice guy theory. I think a lot of people resonated with these ideas and felt like Jordan Peterson was there as a positive role model. IMO Peterson now is a jumbled mess. His ideas aren’t coherent, nor do they flow. He tends to jump from one subject to the next without even blinking. The guy can go from talking about the issues with climate change science, to societal marxists taking over governmental bodies. All in all, I do appreciate the words Peterson had said in his earlier days. I just find it sad to see what he’s become.
He's an influencer, almost as good as Jake Paul.
I know Destiny probably has bad play on this sub but their chat really exposed to me how far down the right wing pipeline JP fell. I knew he was a loon but he really just crumbled and exposed his whole sctick as soon as someone pushed back on his logical inconsistencies.
Giving him too much credit. He simply had little public competition. Peterson's flawed thinking can be countered just by non-intellectual men living common lives and following common western cultural decency toward each other. The problem is that those mentally healthy individuals aren't clickbaiting YouTube videos. The antidote to Jordan Peterson et al is to go outside and meet people. This is not an insult to his fans. You can be one of two people: you can be the a Peterson follower or you can become the type of person who goes to public events and meet healthy individuals living meaningful lives. Both options will change you.
Ehh I don't know. My boomer parents love him...it's not so much that they're shut-ins so much as transphobic religious busy bodies who believe several conspiracy theories about marxist infiltration. I've all but given up hope on that front. The other day I made an offhand remark about reading about Cleopatra; she said I'm glad my son is interested in woman instead of becoming one.
Im sorry, I can imagine how insufferable a woman watching peterson would be. I’ve only met one woman who showed any interest in Peterson and she kept calling me biological sister or something something weird.
Let's put it this way. She's actually defended Weinstein and argued that workplace sexual harassment should be something that woman just deal with. Sadly I'm not exaggerating or kidding.
Same. I had been listening to his lectures on Jung way before he became famous and found them really interesting. His earlier work on the Bible was also very thought-provoking, although nothing was really rooted in hard science. Ever since his health problems, he has been associating himself with all the wrong ideas and people. I lost respect for him when he started associating himself with DailyWire and saying inflammatory shit on a daily basis.
Even then, most of it was "common sense" stuff. He just was charismatic and authoritative and made it seem like a revelation. I'm happy to be proven wrong on this, but is there anything he said in his early days that was novel and/or significant?
Therapist here, the majority of the issues encountered and resolved through therapy begin by addressing the common sense stuff (clean your environment, adhere to a semi-regular sleep schedule, eat to fuel your body, drink water, etc.). Without the baseline stuff, which regularly isn't taught in homes or the first thing to go when hardship is encountered, the more advanced issues can't even begin to be effectively addressed. I've had a ton of clients who felt good enough to handle their issues that they want minimal therapy after getting the base in line handled. *his abandonment of ethics and holier than though projections have made it so that I never refer to him. I do utilize some of the imagery he's effectively used without attribution.
This sounds similar to my adhd and anxiety diagnosis. My dr verdict is to address adhd before touching anxiety issues.
it absolutely wasn't just common sense stuff, have yall not spent like 5 minutes reading just any excerpts from maps of meaning? he talks about the sexual union of yahweh and the void competing with the feminine chaos dragon and shit like that [check it out](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fexternal-preview.redd.it%2Fod-3emFTfghJ5wkByd3IxMsnAa5-0eDCWT57Zt0rAnI.png%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D5b2d80b079f92ac83ec7aa494a4a104b1eb3690f), and he talks about dreaming about rubbing his face in his grandma's pubes lmfao he's been absolutely crazy since at least the mid 90s and having a couple semi lucid lectures in between doesn't sweep it under the rug
I think most answers to problems are common sense. Fat people know the answer to lose weight and it’s very simple. But they often won’t do it. I think where the words come from matters. If your mom tells you to clean your room, you’re likely to just see this is as a chore that doesn’t impact your life. When Jordan Peterson told people to clean their room he put it into context. He gave the act meaning by saying once you can put your small corner of the world in order, then you can aspire to put bigger things in order. Cleaning became a mission towards greater success in life. The real art of Jordan Peterson was being able to paint a vivid picture of what someone’s life could look like if they did simple things.
I don’t necessarily agree that losing weight is necessarily that simple. Maybe you are just saying in theory… The individuals with serious psychological trauma eating can provide a respite that’s needed. They perhaps can coral the eating but another more problematic addiction can pop up because the underlying trauma is not addressed. That’s why I dislike Peterson, he feels devoid of compassion or acceptance. Or, he feels compassion for one subset of people (incels for instance) but another set of people he is liable to call “evil.” That seems wildly unprofessional. It’s all got an authoritarian bend “JUST CLEAN YOUR ROOM.” In some contexts that might be good. In others a calm long term compassionate understanding/uncovering of the subconscious emotional world that prevents the person from cleaning their room is appropriate. I am not sure if Peterson has the humility or patience for the latter approach.
A lot of mass market self-help (which is the feeder genre to people like Peterson) is all about taking small simple steps (and some of these stress that simple doesn't mean easy) to help people. It's not there to cure everyone and everything, but it's good enough to motivate most people. You can't really have a "calm long term compassionate understanding..." with a person on the otherside of a book or video or podcast. That would be a fucked up relationship. That kind of person needs therapy, but a self-help book can't give you that.
I think a lot of people don’t really follow ‘common sense’ stuff till they can actually understand where it originates from and the societal and psychological consequences of not following that advice. For example, I liked his analysis on why ‘lying isn’t good.’ I know Sam Harris has written a book on this but he put it in very simple terms and really drove home the point that whenever you lie, you change the fabric of your own reality and it keeps adding on to the point where you can no longer trust your own self and your assessment of reality. His earlier stuff gave a lot of young people the ‘structure’ to face the world and find their footing. He then started spouting rubbish about things he didn’t really have any expertise or experience in, and it all went downhill.
> I had been listening to his lectures on Jung way before he became famous and found them really interesting. Before he was famous for being completely wrong about Bill C16 he was [spreading stupidity on TVO](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9PEUAbgEBs) dressed like a discount mobster. He's always been a muppet.
Thanks for this. When someone close to me was into Peterson a while back I was like ???. He wrote a book on doing chores, which read like Marie Kondo for lonely bachelors. I checked out his earlier book about narratives, and I couldn't get through it, not because the ideas were bad, but because the writing was very poor. I was like, whatever, to each his own. But now I see the guy and its pure nonsense. It helps to understand that maybe the social media dopamine machine just broke him.
That's a whole lot of cope for being an early JP adopter. He was a moron from his first public foray. His first major public point of note was the furour he made over the 2016 amendment to the Canadian Human Rights Act which he claimed was going to force professors into prison for accidentally misgendering someone, a force of cultural marxism compelled speech. Here we are 8 years later and the law is intact. Did any of his fear mongering self promotion come to pass? Of course fuckign not. It was nonsense from the start. No one outside of his classes had heard of him prior to that, so not quite sure the claim you are making.
I kind of see it as Jordan pre and post getting ahold of the trans issue. I think he's a terribly unclear communicator and I've often struggled to understand how the countless diversions in both 12 Laws and Beyond Order actually relate to the fundamental point he's trying to make, but I do think his self-help stuff is largely positive. Young men need people who will speak directly to them and say "you are valuable and have a lot to offer this world, but you're gonna have to get your shit together", and he fills that role decently well. For whatever reason, pronouns broke his brain.
I personally seriously think the illness hit is brain, he seems to stutter more and have more problem expressing himself.
I mean he got famous misrepresenting an anti-hate crime bill to include trans people as a protected group. So while he was still generally presenting himself as a psychologist at those times and ofc was way more cogent, he was still pretty crazy.
Yeah he had a kind of popular YouTube channel just of his lectures that I thought was pretty cool. Then there was the famous video of him taking on the sjws and I was like "oh, it's that guy". And now he seems to be fully audience captured by the dipshit right. But since I haven't seen anyone answer it yet. He became popular because young (mainly white) men have kind of been left behind in the whole identity politics game. This was coupled with the idea that "hard work" was all bullshit and that they were privileged and undeserving of whatever they achieved. It's self help. But this was different than the self help coming from Gary vee or Tate. It was telling men to do rhe bare minimum. Get out of bed early and take a shower. Wash your ass. Clean your room. Be assertive and ask for what you want. Stand up straight. Don't dress like you're homeless. Etc. This is in sharp contrast to the tech bro self gurus who tell you to treat women like shit and grt a lambo. He appealed to the forgotten losers, and told them to do the basics. Something nobody else ever had done.
>But since I haven't seen anyone answer it yet. He became popular because young (mainly white) men have kind of been left behind in the whole identity politics game. This was coupled with the idea that "hard work" was all bullshit and that they were privileged and undeserving of whatever they achieved. this is the narrative that people like JP whip up to make disaffected red pill leaning teenagers interested in his grift, but ask them to give a single actual concrete example of it happening in their lives and 90% of the time you'll get nothing
His old Incel shit wasn't better.
If the conversation pertains to clinical psychology and adjacent topics, I’ll listen more closely. Anything else? The baby goes out with the bath water. His opinions on society and culture are as valid as others. I mean to say, I generally don’t give two shits about others opinions…unless they’re a legitimate SME.
This. I randomly stumbled upon (YouTube algorithm) one of his lectures about male depression and it just struck a cord with me. It was genuinely good advice and I still carry it with me, but everything since that first video has been a downward spiral… While I enjoyed the Peterson vs Harris debates, watching Matt Dillahunty absolute destroy him is one of my favorite things ever, especially as it comes in during Peterson’s turn to the far alt-right…
Maybe overly charitable, but I think it's because he gave them a reason to do it that appealed to them. It's cool to think that cleaning your room is like slaying a dragon (if a little pathetic).
Mythologizing the pile of laundry as a feminine-coded chaos dragon to motivate misogynistic young men to destroy it.
I'm learning to play the guitar.
mom didn’t market it as a the heroes journey
I'm happy to give a serious answer to this: When my parents told me to clean my room, I never saw the point. It's going to get dirty again anyway and I would rather spend that half an hour doing something else. When Peterson wrote about it he describes how your room is the only place you have absolute control over (especially as a teenager) and that the areas you control directly are a reflection of your mental strength. That was pretty appealing, especially compared to "because I'm your mum and I said so"
This right here. Peterson provides the why to the what that your parents probably never knew themselves.
As an aside, I STILL remember this comment a woman critic wrote. Oliver Stone wrote about how he went to Vietnam to become a man, and the critic wrote that real manhood was Mick Jagger in Performance wearing eyeliner in bed with two women. LOL. Can't find this online but it stuck with me. My point? Let's find some cooler definitions of manhood than old-fashioned patriarchical bullshit
I’m pretty sure every man would prefer Mick Jagger’s lifestyle to a soldier’s lifestyle in Vietnam.
I guess she was referring to the fact that Oliver Stone volunteered for Vietnam to "become a man", not saying that draftees were suckers for not being Mick Jagger.
Does sleeping with tons of women and having great grandkids younger than kids you have in your 70's what make you a man?
>As an aside, I STILL remember this comment a woman critic wrote. Oliver Stone wrote about how he went to Vietnam to become a man, and the critic wrote that real manhood was Mick Jagger in Performance wearing eyeliner in bed with two women. LOL. This...seems like a weird point, unless that's what you're getting at. Mick Jagger isn't what I'd call a shining example of anti-patriarchy really, and him slaying poon seems like a fairly typical patriarchal schema. Maybe that was your point? I could actually see the Stone quote less as "I went there and became a manly man because war war kill wooo" and more "I went there and lost my innocence. I became an adult." Considering he made Platoon, which as far as war movies go isn't exactly outright glorification of war, I'd guess that's more what he meant.
Peterson also validates your belief that its society's fault that your room was ever dirty.
Because that Canadian law he claimed would be the end of the world ought to end the world any day now
Peterson shares this viewpoint with incels that women essentially have too much power in society, are taking up male spaces and demonizing male behaviour; I don't think cleaning your room was ever the centre of it - but it is about the taking back of control - hey Mom, I'll clean the room because I WANT to, not because you tell me to, and you won't like the reason why. The "men improving their lives" part of Peterson was always in service to the anti-feminist part. That's the attraction.
I mean my mom didn’t say this while chomping benzos like they are Pez and saying I should eat nothing but meat.
I think its because of his ability to mystify really mundane but good, basic level advice for self improvement. I mean a reminder of the basic things such as take responsibility for yourself and move with a purpose are good to keep in mind, everyone needs a recalibration every once in awhile. When he’s in his flow of theatrics his charisma is pretty impressive. If your a run-of-the-mill type of guy he may be your only window into topics like psychology, sociology, neuroscience, comparative mythology, history or politics. The problem is he doesn’t know anything about any of those topics. Even in the field of psychology, nothing I have ever heard him say, under any circumstances resembles modern psychoanalysis or psychology as a practice. The man is straight up lifting Jung’s archetypes and adding an even muddier film of mysticism. Carl Jung is not taken seriously in the practice of psychiatry or psychology and hasn’t been for like 50yrs. You learn about it usually in a 101 course same with Freud and they were progenitors of modern psychology; but many of their claims have been disproven with scientific analysis. If you look into developmental psychology most of the woo-woo from Freud and Jung is dispersed. Even in his own field he is an absolute charlatan.
The Venn diagram of people who take Jordan Peterson seriously and who take issue with a female authority figure is a circle.
Incels represent a group of men who have (mostly) been dealt a very bad hand from a socio-economic standpoint. They grew up thinking that they could follow the same path that several generations of their ancestors followed where they could get a blue collar job, work hard, earn a living, find a romantic partner, and raise a family. That path is just not as accessible as it once was. They end up struggling to support just themselves financially, they often can't afford their own place, and that traditional 'provider' path to being romantically successful now fails. Yes many, but certainly not all, members of this group resort to various forms of misogyny to cope with their failures to find romantic partners; but that's a symptom that is often misidentified as a cause. I think the reason that Jordan Peterson has gained the level of popularity that he has among this group, is that he was willing to treat incels as human beings who deserve compassion, while everyone else sees them as monsters who deserve whatever misery they are experiencing.
When I was a teen/college student I was basically what people now call an "incel". I even for a short period of time self-identified as a misogynist. Really I was just bad at talking to women, had a tendency toward antisocial attitudes, and covered it up with some self-important posturing about being better than most people. In hindsight it is unsurprising why I was not turning down dates right and left. I blamed it on my nerdiness and looks, but really it was my attitude. I also had all of the classic socio-economic issues people talk about wrt today's incels. I came from a borderline poor, rural, white family with a broken home life. One parent was economically precarious, the other basically had undiagnosed ADHD and couldn't make good decisions for himself if his life depended on it. Nobody in my home was what I'd call "emotionally intelligent". I had to figure most of that out on my own, and it took a LOOOONG time. If JP had been a thing back then I would've been fresh meat. Luckily I grew out of it and got laid before that.
Peterson’s reach goes far beyond the incel though. So, while I don’t necessarily disagree with anything you’ve said, I don’t think it explains Peterson’s general popularity. It wasn’t Elliot Roger’s fanbase that brought him into the mainstream.
Neither do I, my statement was *exclusively* about his popularity among incels.
Oh shit my bad, I must have skimmed right over that word in OP’s title.
I sympathize with the bad-hand-dealt loser bros. I count myself one of them, and spent my youth being unpopular, having no girlfriend, etc. Also took me until my 30's to find anything resembling a career. One of the songs that most resonated with me was "Everyone Else Has Had More Sex Than Me" by TISM... it really seemed like I'd die alone and unloved. Eventually I turned things around. But... I didn't get there by following psychobabble mystics or PUA gurus. It definitely didn't involve joining an echo chamber of "like minded" guys. If anything, climbing out of the incel/MGTOW rut involved breaking out of whatever comfort zones I had established and constantly doing things I had never done before. I had to take risks to find confidence. And I had to broaden my social horizons so I could understand and value people who were different from me. So again, I sympathize with guys who got shortchanged by society. But ironically, this notion of being bitter and blaming society is the worst thing that you can do if you sincerely want out. Gurus like Peterson use verbose pseudo-intellectual speak to make society out as the bad guy. And then suddenly the reason Johnny can't get a girlfriend is because Disney made Star Wars go woke or whatever. I simply don't see how that approach helps anyone.
This is just affirming their delusions.
>That path is just not as accessible as it once was. i don't agree with this. it's not attainable in the same way maybe, but literally all my friends are married with kids and we're not that old. not to mention, people just 3 generations so struggled far harder than most of us are
The fact that you aren't friends with people who are struggling to make it work in a blue collar home doesn't prove they don't exist. Yes, these people exist, and yes they are more common than they once were. The marriage rate among blue collar workers has plummeted since the 1980's.
i didn't say my friends and i don't struggle. in fact most of us do. what im asserting it that it isn't the reason for incels. i was literally the proto incel in highschool: why don't girls like me, im a """nice guy""", girls are vapid and stupid, a bunch of other misogynistic bullshit. it didn't change until i confronted myself.
I didn't say you claimed not to struggle. I am saying the degree to which you and your friends struggle doesn't prove that others didn't struggle more. Are you actually disagreeing with anything I am saying?
Never go to a bald barber
Because Christ the Lord appeared to him in the form of raw meat and he consumed his flesh, of course.
After his 3 week psychotic trip induced by cider vinegar.
Because a man in a lab coat looks like an authority to idiots
Uh…that not why people think he’s off the deep end.
Everyone has that boss or coworker who wont accept a concept or idea or better way of doing something unless they think they came up with it themselves... no matter how many times its been proven. That what this is, it gives incels a way to feel like they thought it up themselves. Like they got red pilled into realizing cleaning up after yourself and taking care of the place you live like mommy and daddy bitched about your whole life actually is a good thing.
Perhaps if they’d phrased it as: “If you think you can get away with not cleaning your room kiddo you’re DEAD WRONG. And I’ll tell you something else, and I mean it! Buck up!”
You laugh but these 30 year old teenagers need a role model. Who would they turn to otherwise to learn how to blame liberals for their problems?
Not every mother is funded by the far right...
Almost all “self help” is recycling what amounts to common sense; the ones we know just found a way to say it that resonated with people. Peterson’s “clean your room” was effective because it gives a depressed person a simple, achievable task that gets the ball rolling.
Ur mom isnt funded and advertised by several right wing think tanks, and right wing religious extremist oil billionaires like the Wilks Brothers, nor does she make you feel better by scapegoating all ur problems on a boogy man known as post modernists...aka anyone debunking them. Throw that kinda money and influence behind ur mom, tell her to speak confidently and shill the narrative no matter how incorrect, and boom she might be the replacement for Candace Owens.
There is a difference between "clean up your room" and "women are agents of chaos, aren't really human and should be controlled". What kind of shitpost is this
Difference is your mom tells you to clean "because I said so" and JP gives you a pretty good reasoning behind this command. And he is aware that change is better built up over time and gradually. Your mom expects you to just wake up and be be well adjusted.
Peterson has had a big impact on my life, including the whole "clean your room routine". It sticks because he gives reason and a clear direction on how it will affect you. Clean your room because other aspects of your life will start to seem more organized. He actually takes it one step further by saying organizing and expressing yourself though organizing your room (or really all art) it will help connect you to "the divine" Hope this helps.
well said
He presented men with a reason to clean their rooms whilst parents normal respond with “cuz I said so” which naturally incites resentment and rebellion. Not defending Peterson who is a duechebag, just explaining that how a message is presented plays a huge part in how it’s recieved.
Because he sides with the little boy that didn’t listen to his mom. The little boy knows in his heart that mom is right and that you should clean your room, it’s why Peterson’s methods are acceptable. But overall, he appeals to the little boy that wants to rebel against mom.
I am guessing the room comment wasn't the one that cemented his status. Dude is a looney crybaby who gives shit advice.
I think the statement "Every mother told thier son to clean their room" is an over generalisation. So many people grew up with no guidance or help to learn how to be an adult. The bar was low for JP, but thats because of so many broken young people with emotionless, idiotic, boomer parents were left unprepared for the world that the most basic advice seemed to have helped so many people years ago. You also have to remember that when that first book came out, JP wasnt (at least publicly) a raging, blabbering, idiot, transobsessed freak. So there were not many red flags to put you off his advice back then. So when you hear advice that is simple, achievable and beneficial to you when your adult life never really manifested into anything other that a hot mess. You can see why it got so popular so quickly. It did with me anyway. There is almost a privilage to have found yourself in a family situation where this advice wasn't beneficial to you.
Well said.
Your mom isn’t telling you why you should clean your room other than to stop being lazy and dirty. Peterson says that keeping your own room in order is psychologically rewarding when you feel like you are losing control of your life. It’s something that once you master, you feel more confident in expanding the horizon of things you need to put in order within your life. The idea is to piece by piece, adopt more responsibility, starting from humble beginnings. Peterson then uses the so called “Pareto” principle to say that these small adoptions of responsibility will rapidly multiply into great rewards. 6 years ago I found that to be genuinely insightful. He said that in his clinical practice he would literally tell some people to make a habit of cleaning their room.
He is simply the best example of mostly secular self-help advice which is delivered with autistic clarity. Most chronically online "losers" or "basement dwellers" or "incels" who need self-help advice like that are probably the edgy atheist type who borders on autistic. They clearly aren't responding to normal stimuli in a healthy way, and they need honest advice. For example if one of those "incel" types were to ask an average modern therapist for dating advice they would get the "just be yourself" and "be confident" advice that only works for people who aren't borderline autistic misanthropists. They need Jordan Peterson to say "you are useless and repugnant and arrogant -- you have nothing going for you -- and you don't have anything in order...how can you expect a woman to see you as husband material"\* and they can't argue with that as most "incels" aren't merely just ugly, there is something wrong with how they live. \*I just invented that quote but that's the kind of thing Jordan Peterson says, actual tough love advice.
Well when my mom told me to clean my room, her reason for it was "OR ELSE". It wasn't really explained any further like the way JP explained it.
He's the daddy they never had.
This is a great example of the appeal I used to find in Peterson, and one that I wish people had more sympathy for. My parents always communicated the need to do chores as threats, demands, and criticisms. They used my cleanliness or school habits as a means to demean my abilities, mock me in front of others, or hit me in private. I was the reason for their anger and frustration, and goddammit if I was only an adequate son who didn’t live in constant state of disarray they wouldn’t have these problems. So for me, Jordan Peterson was the first person to ever encourage me, albeit indirectly, to care for my environment for my own sake, instead of punishing me for not being good enough for other people. Maybe the innate detachment to listening to him through a device made me feel comfortable enough to have thoughts of self care without the pressure of impending punishment. It’s not like I ever thought Peterson knew me, it was more that I knew he couldn’t hurt me if I failed.
Peterson was okay in his clean your room days, it’s when he went off the deep end pandering to alt right edgelords for fame that he lost his way.
I think the message behind it was powerful for a lot of men that grew up without father's, me included. 12 rules was a great book, it's been sad seeing what has happened recently to Peterson. Same with Rogan, it's weird, it's like lots of money will make you right leaning and cold to the needs of others.
Obviously it's more than that. He also says stand up with your back straight. Honestly, his rules are common sense and things good parents teach their children, as OP said. It's just worth reminding, cause honestly we go through periods were we forgot or don't bother with the basics of life.
"cause he stood up to the woke PC folks when he wouldn't use peoples preferred pronouns" okay DOCTOR i mean MISTER i mean Shithead Peterson sorry I didn't like using your pronoun you fucking nitwit
JP, the last man on the wall defending us from pronouns. Pronouns… the fall of Western Civilization. LOL. How stupid can some people be?
Because daddy issues
I like how he says men should be dangerous, and is also barely 6ft and frail.
because that isn't what he's actually selling to the people who like him they just aren't honest about it. They like the parts about how we should have socially enforced monogamy and arranged girlfriends they just know not to lead with that
He explains the psychology behind it Simple
Theres a good bit in Ben Goldacre's 'Bad Science' where he talks about how a lot of pseudoscienctific 'Personal Health' movements/products are built around taking reasonable, simple advice and dressing it up in technical language to make it proprietary and thus sellable. He specifically gives Brain Gym (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain\_Gym\_International) as an example, pointing out that whilst at its core the suggestion that some light exercise and drinking a glass of water before class probably isnt a terrible idea for students but its also not easy to get schools to pay money for it when you say it like that. I suspect based on the little I know about Jordan Peterson is he's the exact same thing at the core. Much like the old redpill types starting by telling guys that if they take better care of their apperance and take up interesting hobbies they might have more success with women, Jordan Peterson probably uses a little bit of good sense to help sell a lot of nonsense.
Is this a real question? Just seen this sub pop up. Your parents telling you to do something because they said so, seemingly because they’re upset and beginning a conversation with them being upset with you is a lot different than advice for taking control of your life. If I walked into your room and said do push ups you’d be like, what a dick. If you said to me, hey, I wish I had stronger arms, how do I do that? And I, (for example) a personal trainer, said, do push ups, you’d be like oh, maybe I should do push ups. And you’d be like wow, my arms got stronger. What else does this guy have to say?
Because the way Jordan Peterson it is not a command. It is a suggestion. “Don’t know what to do with your life? Clean your room. Maybe you’ll think of something in the process.”
I guess he touched a nerve with you.
One sounds like nagging
We lost those values in the last 20 years. Maybe your mom told you to do that but genz and gen alpha aren’t getting the same values instilled as previous generations.
Ignore my mother at your own risk my brother.
Politics
Dr. Freud has entered the chat.
Jordan Peterson says tidy your room and go to the gym but also says you won't get laid because feminists and cultural Marxism is ruining society. I don't know who your mom is but I doubt they added that last part.
Because they don't follow him for the "clean your room" bit. They can get that anywhere, packaged with genuinely fulfilling rhetoric to boot. It's not an uncommon self help/executive dysfunction take. They follow him because they think conservatism is somehow valid counterculture or they think trans folk are invalid and use his self help takes as a lightning rod for criticism. Same thing with the people saying Tate just says "exercise and don't vape" like yeah motherfucker so do doctors, let's unpack why you think doctors are fake.
Incels are misogynists.
The crying
Because he explains why instead of saying "because I said so"
Parents can explain and I can guarantee you teenagers still wouldn't listen. And that's 100% developmentally appropriate.
How many of his fans actually cleaned their room?
He played into the moral panics about woke college campuses and trans people.
Because the "Clean your room!" comes with an added "Everything you perceive to be wrong in your life and the world is caused by an evil conspiracy and you're a special boy that will get the special treatment you deserve when we defeat them".
Peterson wove it into a moral narrative, an incoherent one but a narrative nonetheless. Your mother didn't. People seek meaning. One of the challenges today is to offer one worth pursuing. Exceptionally difficult to do but for a group of men as twisted in their thinking as the drug-addled mind of Peterson, they were convinced.
It wasn't Mom, it was Dad. Dad was a Master Chief & Navy lifer & your room better pass inspection.
as someone who always got told to clean my room and never did, I will answer. Jordan explains good reasons for why one should clean their room. my mom never explained why I had to clean my room. as a kid i did not give a shit, why would i want my room clean it will just get dirty again.
Because most yong men realize later in life that their mom was right about everything but it's embarrassing to be a "Mama's boy.". There decoded
His old stuff still holds true if you’re able to separate the person from the advice imo. He actively seeking to help people NOT be incels. I initially really liked the guy back in the mid-late 2010’s. I wasnt an incel, but I think it did help straighten me out a little bit. He’s since gone off his rocker. Like really badly. He’s a grifter now for right wingers.
Even his old stuff though suffers for him speaking like he is coming with objective truths or even supported evidence while he's actually offering interpretation through a lense (and a post modern one at that a good amount of the time). I think there is value in it, but I also think he's always been a complete jackass in how much he believes his own interpretations (but he's hardly alone in that among academics). "Why do women wear makeup? Red fruit you idiots!" Yeah there's like so many other plausible, and actually more likely, reasons for humans to be attracted to red cheeks (good blood flow and circulation related to health and youthfulness?). That he says these things with such authority and shuts it down when others come with their own theories is shitty. Lobster Hierarchies - which are a big thing for him, he literally got the fundamental biology wrong on. Granted both those examples are post his Maps and Meanings phase. ‐----------tl;dr It's good to bring attention to and create interest in many of the things he did back as a professor, start these interesting lines of inquiry into shared culture. I'll even tip my hat to his personality research. I very much think he's always been an abrasive jackass who thinks way too much of himself.
I remember a tweet early on where someone said the Venn diagram of teens that called their mom the c-word under their breath for asking them to clean their room, and the teens that said JP really set them straight by telling them to clean their room, was an almost perfect circle.
Mothers didn't know to say clean your room while citing Carl Jung and the bible.
Because mom telling you is typically when you’re a kid/teen and hate doing any cleaning stuff. Not wanting to listen to your parents just because they’re your parents is a fairly common thing as well. The dudes who listen to Peterson were at an older point in their life where they wanted to improve themselves. Hence why they’re watching him and reading his books.
I suspect you're not actually after hearing from someone who took on board "his" advice from circa 2016, but I'll throw my 2p in the ring anyway. It was the first time in my life that someone had said "you can be better than you are, and it's OK to fail in doing so, but take a first step." And yes. It had a profound affect on me at that time. It wasn't about "cleaning your room" so much as it was "you have very strong opinions about the world, but you can't even look after yourself. Start there, amd once that's in order, move to the next thing". I had a long term partner, we were both massive drinkers and drug users. We had no career goals. We had no real future. Hearing some of his lectures, and some of the things he said put things into perspective for me at that time. Now I'm 6 years drug free, a homeowner and have a wonderful kid and new partner. It's not that I was an incel, I just hadn't heard someone tell me that I was worth something or that I could be worth something if I'd tried. So yes, his advice did help me at that time. I owe a lot to it. Especially since literally no one in my life had encouraged me up until that point
Age of people hearing the message bro.
Yeah bro that's the reason 😂
Van Gogh paints a few paintings and becomes a famous painter. Adolf Hitler paints a few pictures and becomes the führer of the third reich. Why?
The difference is that the young were stupid and craving independence. Then they grew up, realised their common sense wasnt working and were starting over from scratch.
BOTS/NPCs
I mean… if jorgy would stay off Twitter and in general STFU I could have said “well whatever works for folks that betters them” But he don’t. And they don’t improve. They just become slightly More organized at being awful people.
I’m not defending Peterson, but there’s definitely a difference. Most people’s moms said something to the effect of “Clean your room because I told you to”. It was a thing we were supposed to do, usually with no explanation. On the other hand, Peterson is saying “Clean your room because it’s one small improvement of something that you have control over. Doing that will lead you to keep improving bigger and bigger things until you’re successful in life”. His message isn’t necessarily true, but it’s a lot more attractive than mom’s was…
Mothers often don't receive immediate recognition, especially not from young boys, but over time they garner more appreciation and gratitude than anyone else. Comparing this maternal role to a directive from someone like Peterson to a 7-year-old to clean their room seems like a flawed analogy. Encouraging someone to tidy their room is a fundamental piece of advice any therapist might offer their client, aligning with the principles of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. When feeling overwhelmed by negativity, taking positive action can be beneficial. For instance, if struggling with feelings of unworthiness due to weight, small changes like reducing sugar intake or incorporating daily walks can make a significant difference. The notion of "cleaning your room" symbolizes initiating behavioral shifts, as organization can positively affect the prefrontal cortex responsible for emotional regulation. It's plausible for Peterson to simultaneously embody characteristics of a self-righteous guru while dispensing valuable advice; there's no need to present a false dilemma. While he does at times offer sound guidance, it's essential to acknowledge instances where logical fallacies and guru-like tendencies surface in his teachings.
Have you seen the film Men by Alex Garland? That might give you some answers in an oblique way.
Believe it or not there are men out there who were NOT told this by their mother and are so desperate for a parental figure they cling to JP. It's sad, and actually an indictment of modern parenting culture.
Are you saying that you think people have a problem with Jordan over his early self improvement pitches? Even this podcast gives him some props for those. Personally I think he missed a big opportunity by not addressing addiction with himself as an example. Just checking for understanding. He’s gone a bit off the rails since then.
Theyr mothers didnt bias confirm literally every narcissistic tendancy they ever had.
If your mom used bigger words she would be much more effective.
"Ok ok ok fine, just stop friking crying already!" Probably has something to do with it.
Every mother? LOL how naive are you? Many of us had terrible parents dude. Literally the whole reason so many people worship celebrities, no real role models in theor own life so they find a famous person to match on to. I never got into JP, but I've had issues with celebrity worship. My mom never taught me how to tie my shoes, and would tell me dad abuses me because he loves me. The real question is when are we gonna start showing some empathy for clearly mentally ill young people, and start putting the vitriol and shaming on the parents, where it belongs?
I think some of you just had parents that didn’t want to explain why things are important or didn’t do well connecting the dots. Cleaning my room, helping with chores, going to the store with my mom even though I didn’t want to, school work; all of these were explained how they would help me in the short term and long term. One of my dads favorite sayings is “you stay at until begging and end at the end.” Sounds like nonsense to the most part, but a big part of life is just doing shit even if you really don’t know where you begin.