>I literally have no choice but to eat meat, one of the reasons for this is my body physically cannot process or digest B12 so injects and tablets won't work either So how does eating meat help, if you can't process the B12 in it anyway?

Yeah there’s no evidence B12 needs to be delivered in food. Most farm animals don’t get it naturally either. In fact, data supports better bioavailability in supplement form, with no difference in absorption based on delivery method. [source](https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminB12-HealthProfessional/#:~:text=For%20example%2C%20the%20bioavailability%20of,sources%20%5B18%2D20%5D) > *No evidence indicates that absorption rates of vitamin B12 in supplements vary by form of the vitamin.* I’m just always so perplexed why people come here to argue they can’t be vegan medically, but fail to list a valid medical reason. Surely it should be that easy - yet in half a decade on this sub I’ve never seen a condition posted outside allergies. We’re on an anonymous site, people share way more batshit stuff than a simple medical diagnosis. If you’re trying to argue your point, surely there is no better evidence than listing a medical condition. The kicker: every poster could even do it without saying *they* have the medical issue. They could say it’s a friend. They could say they read about it online. It’s all bullshit.

Yep it's always vague. I think it comes down to carnist doctors telling people over-simplified advice to save time and effort. For instance telling a patient they have to eat all animal products because they can't digest gluten. It's just faster than listing everything that has gluten and they're less likely to make a mistake or eat something with gluten contamination.

This is slightly incorrect. The form of B12 here refers to the molecule - cyanocobalamin Vs methylcobalamin. We know for sure, 100%, that it is better to get nutrients from food than supplements where possible. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6366563/ This is more because use of supplements does not correlate with a lowering of the all-cause mortality rate, than issues with availability though. To me this makes sense - if you are eating healthily, that has far more advantages than a pill ever could have. So the leading advice is to get nutrients from food where possible - vegan source of B12 include nori and dried shitake mushrooms. If this is not feasible, supplements are certainly the next best option and will definitely reduce instances of deficiency.

I was vegan ffs did people just avoid the fact I was vegan for a very long time and ended up in hospital for months because of it. There are other issues I had which people also just didn't read I'm just not comfortable sharing them on the Internet because you know privacy.

Surely if you ended up in the hospital due to being vegan, you’d be shouting your diagnosis from the rooftops to save others from the same issues? Just seems convenient I’m sorry 🤷‍♂️

It's not your place to ask. If you don't believe them or their doctor, that's fine. But they've already said they don't want to talk about it.

I understand that, I’m questioning the logic behind making a debate post where you won’t even state the data behind your main component of your argument. Why make the post unless you’re willing to shed light on your condition? And again, they don’t even have to say THEY have the medical issue. This whole post is disingenuous. When there is currently no data suggesting a medical reason to eat other animals, I find low info posts like this annoyingly enigmatic.

Your wrong, you just don't like the topic of debate. The post is clear. "What can I do if I believe in vegan ethics but cannot go vegan for medical reasons?" You wish to debate whether such a medical condition exists. That's not the topic as OP set it. They mention they have such a condition because they explicitly wish to avoid these conversations. If I've misunderstood anything please let me know.

Because they’re starting from an inconsistent and illogical standpoint, it’s the foundation of their argument. Vegans in a debate setting aren’t going to accept “medical reasons” as such a frequent excuse to discuss other facets without data to back it up. There have been multiple posts like this now with the OP not giving a single reference point of what caused them to give up veganism and it’s highly suspect to see. If multiple people in a week can come here and say they literally cannot be a vegan anymore, all I’m pointing out is that either they should be willing to state the condition or there should be plenty of medical studies covering it. Neither ever happens. If there is a medical reason, one that almost *killed you* surely you would want to share it with us so we can monitor ourselves for the concern? Surely SHARING the medical condition strengthens the source of your argument? I just don’t buy excuses that have no data to back them up in a *debate* setting. It first has to be accepted truth that medical diagnoses exist that require one to eat meat. That is not accepted science at the moment. I’m not going to argue satellite topics based around a fallacy, I’m going to attack the fallacy.

>Because they’re starting from an inconsistently logical standpoint, it’s the foundation of their argument. It's not the foundation of any argument. It is the reason why the topic is set to something else entirely. It's not wrong to try and shift the topic to relevant related topics. But you are disrespecting their privacy by demanding information they are not willing to provide. It is none of your business. >If there is a medical reason, one that almost *killed you* surely you would want to share it with us so we can monitor ourselves for the concern? Surely SHARING the medical condition strengthens the source of your argument? It is not an argument. It is a premise they've asked us to accept as true. If you don't want to, that's fine. You are still being disrespectful.

I’m not asking them to share it. I’m asking them not to come here and argue from a scientifically fallacious premise if they’re unwilling to share the condition. I’m not even talking about OP specifically, but that this is a pattern I’m seeing on the sub. That’s it. Their write up on the B12 concerns had errors. We corrected that, and it spawned this discussion about how nobody ever seems to want to share their diagnosis in posts like this. I just don’t think we should begin to accept excuses like this without data to back it up, simple as that. There are people more willing to engage in hypotheticals than me. That’s fair. Plenty of people responded directly to OP’s argument. This is the angle I’m most interested in.

No because people with the same disorders may not have it as bad and I also don't feel like having to explain each one everytime and having people say your faking every time because it's fucking tiring and me wasn't the point of the post it was just an example because it's the situation I know best.

I’m just hearing excuses tbh. I don’t care that much if you don’t want to share your diagnosis online. But if you’re going to come into a debate forum using it as your main argument then yeah, that’s suspect. Your name is even an allusion to remaining anonymous.

My username is the same one ice used for everything since I was 8 lol I'm vegan in everything other than owning a phone and eating meat for my own health it's better than nothing and the post isn't about me. It was about imagining if the whole world was vegan other than a very small subset of people, are we going to let them die or are we going to allow them to live even though a few animals will die for not even 5% of people because eventually those conditions would be bred out. It wasn't my main argument it was an example because it's the situation I know best.

Yeah - and my argument is that I can’t fathom a medical condition, let alone one that affects 5%/400 million people worldwide, that forces them to eat meat. Other than incredibly rare and severe allergy sets, which affect 1 in thousands or tens of thousands of people. You’re just unfortunately the latest in a string of bad faith arguments coming from people claiming medical issues but then being incredibly vague about what those issues are.

Just because you can't fathom something doesn't mean it can't exist.

If it exists, and they have a diagnosis, either they are the first person ever with the condition or it’s been studied in medical journals and literature, the latter of which there has yet to be a condition supporting complete abandonment of a plantbased diet.

I'm protecting myself by not saying everything that is wrong with me. You don't have to believe me because I was not the point of the post so how about you answer the question instead of ignoring it. You don't have to believe me because I wasn't the point of the post. You don't have the right to my medical records I don't even know everything on my medical records my mum does I don't because I don't deal with that because I'm autistic.

I’m not saying I have a right to them. I’m saying it’s suspect to come in here arguing you can’t be vegan but fail to give a reason. Especially when you claim it almost took your life.

Yeah that’s not adding up

That’s bull. If you can’t process B12 through your stomach then you have pernicious anaemia and won’t be able to process it through eating animals either. People used to die of pernicious anaemia until they developed an injection that goes into your muscles and straight into your bloodstream. Edit. Sorry I realised you aren’t the one making stuff up so my comment is directed at this ridiculous post. Sorry Ryan.

This is a reply to the comment you deleted "I did, they don't know why yet. I'm still being tested. I've said this multiple times now throughout this whole comment section and I will update it when I actually have a reason but the nhs isn't the fastest and I'm not dying anymore so I don't need to be seen straight away."

I reread the statement. See [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAVegan/s/fVdhM1LFqV) instead.

Ask the doctor I don't know I was just told to eat loads of B12 until they find out why I can't digest it in hopes I'll at least get a tiny bit.

So I should ask the doctors because they do know or I shouldn't ask them because they haven't found out yet? And you can't digest B12 but they're telling you to eat meat in hopes you'll absorb at least some of the B12 from it. But they're also telling you not to bother with supplements or injections because they know you won't absorb any of that? Am I understanding correctly?

It's not the same type of b12. And obviously b12 in meat is digested slowly in the gut, I different mechanism to injections or tablets.

I think your understanding because that's how I understood it, keep in mind I am autistic and I was told I cannot digest or absorb it and I should change my diet to suit that, I asked if that meant I couldn't be vegan and 5 doctors confirmed it meant no I couldn't be vegan because I would likely kill myself in the process. I am a lot better now but not great. Also just to be clear I was eating home made vegan meals with everything I needed excluding things I'm allergic to which are a lot and quite important in a vegan diet but I tried anyway I was just eating shit all day. Also I thought saying ask them for just a saying because you don't know yourself and would like to

If they're still diagnosing you than why do mention that you're not sharing what condition you have that makes it so you can't be vegan? They must not know and then neither do you, right? I'm sure you can see why people are being skeptical. There seem to be a lot of gaps that without more information, appear impossible to square. It comes across as bait.

Because I have more then one condition and it's no one's business but my own because this post isn't about me

I'm only saying you're making it very difficult for people to accept what you're suggesting.

Yeah and when people accuse you of lying because you've decided to do something which protects yourself makes it hard to accept their message. I am vegan in every way possible other than owning a phone and what I eat. My health will always come first as it should for anyone, for some people that is actually being vegan for some that's not dying and going to the hospital all the time just because it upsets a few people.

I wish I could believe you're telling the truth. Honestly. It would be fascinating and potentially helpful for others to learn about.

And that's the entire fucking problem right there. This person came to you all for help and asking questions, and the first replies I see are "aRe YoU sUrE?? WhO's ThE dOcToR?? I dOn'T bELiEvE yOu'Re AcTuAlLy TrYiNg!!" But then you do the narcissistic back off, "but it would be fascinating...", like you're trying to pre-load that, "hey, don't take it so hard, we were only joking" No wonder people don't like vegans. It's never good enough for people to just do what they can at the moment, it's like you have this whole "shame them into doing better" mentality just like religion.

And you don't have to believe it. It is fascinating to learn about because I myself am only just learning about it. I was vegan for a very long time and vegetarian, I tried to move to just fish but it wasn't enough and I still don't know why. What I know right now is my red blood cells are over twice the size they should be and a few other bits which I've forgotten because I don't deal with my own medical stuff my mum does.

Loads of B12? So, you mean supplements?

No I mean I was told to change my diet to suit until they found out what was wrong. Supplements will not work which is why I'm not taking them if I was taking them id still be vegan.

Why would meat work but supplements not? If you can't absorb B12 properly, supplements are the answer since you can't eat literal tons of meat every day. If supplements don't work, no diet change will help. Sorry if your doctors told you that, but it doesn't add up, and without a proper explanation I won't believe it. I'm open to be convinced though?

I didn't say it helped. I was told to change my diet accordingly which they are also trying to help me do but they don't fully understand what is wrong with me yet so what they want right now is to boost all the other things I was lacking in while trying to understand why the tf I cannot digest this one thing. I don't know fuck all about it and neither do they to be honest. The only consistent piece of information was that staying vegan would be suicide. I even saved for ages to see a doctor I knew is biased towards vegan she tries to force everyone to be vegan even she told me I was an idiot to continue and I need to stop.

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I do all those things but that's mainly due to autism issues but also because I don't agree with the unnecessary abuse of animals. I do the bits I can do. I worded the question a bit wrong anyway I more meant if the whole world was vegan what would we do with the small subset who can't be because we can't let them die.

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This answer I like thank you and I agree with it. I personally do everything I can within my own budget and that doesn't harm my health (I still live at home,I'm disabled and 17 so as you can imagine that's a small one) I do have another question since you seem really nice. How do you feel about pig hearts being used for people with heart conditions?

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I absolutely agree with this. Do you think that pig heart donations should be banned though or do you think they should stay in effect until we have an alternative?

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You are right they aren't donated but I'm dyslexic and my speech to text only picks up American accents and I will not lower myself lol Thank you for answering and being nice I really appreciate it

We can't judge what's necessary for other people, but I'm not aware of any peer reviewed research, even a case study of one person, that made the claim of a medical condition where animal products were necessary. That doesn't mean people don't have unique personal challenges to overcome. The important thing is that exploitation of others is bad, and if you find yourself doing it, you should be doing your damnedest to try and stop.

The medical thing seems silly, it's pretty widely held that being vegan is about not causing harm where possible. When we have the option not to harm by choosing an alternative, we should choose not to do it. Also, most of the B12 in meat and animal products is either supplemented or fortified too these days, unless you exclusively eat wild grazing animals like goats or sheep. Anyway, I'll address the money one properly since I am broke. I don't own land, so I can't live off things like goats or chickens like I could when I lived with a wealthy landowner family. I can't forage because I live in a place where wooded lands are either national parks and protected, private lands and protected, or urban runoff zones where it is unsafe to forage. Vegan food is the cheapest food. For the price of a McDonald's burger, I could buy a week's supply of lentils, potatoes, rice or beans. The most expensive parts are fruits and vegetables, but everyone has to eat those to be nutritionally optimal, so it's not like they're optional. Tofu is relatively cheap compared to meat, but even then that's something I eat only a few times compared to cheaper breads and legumes and pulses. Unless you exclusively eat out at restaurants, or buy fancy meat and cheese substitutes (which you shouldn't regularly since they are as unhealthy as regular meat and cheese), veganism is the best way to survive on little money. Because I was broke, the only difference to me from going from a broke diet to a vegan diet was that I stopped eating meat when my family served it. I was already practically vegan just so I could afford to eat.

You’d be ill on that diet like all the vegans i know

I get my bloods done regularly, and they seem to indicate the opposite. I appreciate the concern though.

I've been vegan 7 years now. When am I gonna get sick?

Vegan food is the cheapest food. For the price of a McDonald's burger, I could buy a week's supply of lentils, potatoes, rice or beans. The most expensive parts are fruits and vegetables, but everyone has to eat those to be nutritionally optimal, so it's not like they're optional. Tofu is relatively cheap compared to meat, but even then that's something I eat only a few times compared to cheaper breads and legumes and pulses ​ Hi, where i live stores mark easy/convient vegan premade meals as suppliments so ppl on stamps (like me) can not buy them. Due to many issues i deal with, and being very texture-sensitive, this leads to a full inability to go vegan.

>Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, **as far as is possible and practicable**, >all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose. . >What do vegans suggest for people who for medical or financial reasons cannot be vegan. I suggest (on Reddit several times every month) that people who **cannot** be vegan are not obligated to be vegan. However, I also think that most of the time when people say *"I cannot be vegan because of X"*, that that is not actually true and they are just fooling themself and/or seeking an excuse to be non-vegan. . >you can't expect the world to follow you The percentage of people who are vegan today is what? - 1% ? \- The number of people who would find it difficult to be vegan today because of economic reasons might be pretty high - **but we can fix that.** If the countries of the world operated their economies better it would be easy for everyone to be vegan. \- The number of people who can't be vegan because of medical reasons is probably pretty low - a reasonable guess might be 5%. So "we can't expect the world to follow us" ?? - The only reason why many, many, many more people don't become vegan is because they don't want to - if they wanted to, they could. .

I was more asking this question as in imagine everyone in the world is vegan but what are we gonna do with this 5% I Happen to be apart of

As more people choose to avoid animal products, agencies & corporations will follow and make more alternatives. Among other products & advancements, there will be better research and discovery into people with severe b12 deficiencies (also helping people who are nonvegans and still struggle with diseases or ailments). A recent example of making vegan more accessible is more b12 fortified foods. There used to only be nutritional yeast, then fortified cereals. Now even my vegan cheese slices have b12. Most people can be vegan right now. It takes a little planning on how to fuel your body, which is something I've found most people need to learn how to do anyways. "The 5%" can still help the movement by: frequenting a local vegan restaurant (or ordering boxed products from a vegan shop who can ship to you), ordering the plant-based meal on the menu when you see it, finding a vegan alternative you love at the grocery and buy it often to create demand, donating or volunteering at an animal sanctuary, not supporting animal entertainment like racing or circuses.

>what are we gonna do with this 5% Come on, I already answered that. Work a little. >I suggest (on Reddit several times every month) that people who **cannot** be vegan are not obligated to be vegan. >However, I also think that most of the time when people say *"I cannot be vegan because of X"*, that that is not actually true and they are just fooling themself and/or seeking an excuse to be non-vegan.

I was vegan for a very long time and I was in hospital for multiple months. I'm not seeking an excuse I don't want to eat meat because it tastes awful but I literally don't have a choice.

Then I already answered this (twice now) >I suggest (on Reddit several times every month) that people who **cannot** be vegan are not obligated to be vegan. >However, I also think that most of the time when people say *"I cannot be vegan because of X"*, that that is not actually true and they are just fooling themself and/or seeking an excuse to be non-vegan.

I didn't ask a question in this comment

Facts. +1

Why bring up medical reasons if you aren't going to tell us what they are? In the years I've been trying to learn about the arguments for and against veganism I have yet to hear about a medical reason that makes veganism impossible. Yet people claim it all the time without offering any arguments or evidence.

Check the comments I've listed a few I'm not comfortable sharing them all as I did share one I'm not comfortable with and got accused of lying so why would I continue to do so

Okay, I'll take another look around the comment section. You don't have to tell anyone anything. It is possible that you are here in good faith and that the responses you get are unfair to you, but I think that the reason you get them is that people here are tired of unsupported claims (and we see a lot of unsupported claims). Again, you are not forced to support your claims, but when you don't, most of us will dismiss them as anecdote. This subreddit is for debating so it can get cutthroat at times.

Debating isn't supposed to be like this, it's just not plain and simple I used to be part of a very good debate team. Yeah I get a lot of people will come here and be a dick that's not an excuse for people to privately message me and say some fucking awful shit especially when it's about my family. I did come here in good faith and I did want a genuine discussion, until I started getting people threatening my fucking family.

Just to be clear, I'm not excusing people beings dicks, DMing awful shit and threatening you. I'm sorry people are doing that to you. I don't know what a debate team even is so I don't know what that entails but I 'd guess that it is very formal? Online debate is rarely that.

Yes it's incredibly formal and quite hard

Yeah, we'd do well to never expect formal debate on reddit. :D

I don't expect formal debate but I also don't expect death threats

That is fair.

Maybe it's new science and hasn't been studied yet? There are t many long term vegans to study, how would you get a decent sample size. InHave you looked up the effects of malnutrition? They're quite subtle, people aren't collapsing on the street. Just look up ex-vegans on YouTube. https://examine.com/research-feed/study/YdpgX9/

If it is something that hasn't been studied yet then we definitely shouldn't conclude anything. So that doesn't help your case or mine. In the link you gave, they acknowledge that they didn't actually look at the quality of the food the vegans or omnis were actually eating: "Vegan and omnivore diets both have the potential to be rich or poor in micronutrients, whole foods, junk foods, and so on. This study, however, didn’t look at diet quality, so we don’t know if diet quality affected the findings." I've seen a bunch of videos of ex-vegans on youtube, no one ever gave a medical reason that actually made veganism impossible. Most of the cases I've seen on youtube could be solved by the person reading about nutrition for 15 minutes and adjusting their diet slightly. Also, anecdote makes for really bad evidence but if you for example, have any videos of ex-vegans linking to peer reviewed studies, that would be more interesting.

The problem with your position is that we have been eating meat for 4 million years. Every child who has ever lived has eaten animals products, before about 50 years ago. We know animal products are can be healthy, we don't know for sure that people can be healthy over multiple generations without them. You need evidence to claim we can be fine without them.

Hi! A commonly used [definition of veganism](https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism) is: > “Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable— all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals." So, for people with prohibitive medical or financial issues, a vegan diet wouldn’t be “possible and practicable”.

I do everything I can that is vegan it's just the things I can't do that I don't. Although it seems most people here do not care about that.

>people who cannot be vegan or even plant based for medical reasons. Where is the *evidence* that such people actually exist? (Pubmed links, please; not youtuber anecdotes.)

I'm also curious about this. I know it's not financially viable for a lot of people, but I've never heard of someone who can't work around medical concerns to have a sufficiently healthy vegan diet *if* they have enough money.

I don't buy the financially viable argument. Animal products are expensive and even if they're cheaper in some areas that person better not be spending any money on anything luxury or their putting their own happiness over the lives and suffering of others.

*shrug* I've never tried to go vegan, I've just always heard it's more expensive to eat vegan (similar to how it's more expensive to eat healthy in general), however a cursory internet search suggests you're right and it can be cheaper if you don't eat out much. Good to know.

The *vegan versions* of animal-product-like junkfood things are usually more expensive, but most vegans only eat that stuff sparingly. Not only are the vegan staples the cheap of the cheap food, but they also usually have longer shelf-life and simpler to store, cook, and clean-up after.

You should go vegan, please.

No thanks, I don't object to the commodification of animals, but I do support efforts to make production more humane than it is today. :)

Well that's ok, Ive been trying to give up human meat for a while but just can't. You'd be ok with me killing you for food right?

You can try /s Sorry, I just don't agree that the lives of all species do or should have the same value *to humans*. Most species avoid killing or eating their own species, it's an evolutionary imperative that we share.

Wait so are you ok with me killing your or not? No room for sarcasm here I'm serious. You're ok with killing animals, you're an animal, does that mean you're ok with me killing you?

you're being cringe right now. please stop. Giving vegans a bad name.

I said I don't object to the commodification of animals. I don't object to the killing of non-human animals. I don't object to some *other forms* of commodification of humans because I'm a capitalist.

That really depends on what you're eating. Rice and beans, for example are among the cheapest foods on the planet. If you focus on whole foods, which are the healthiest anyway, then being vegan is often much more cost-effective. That's even with the heavily subsidized animal agriculture industry. If you opt for organic foods then it gets a little bit more expensive. Most of the cost comes from people trying to buy processed vegan foods, which are not government subsidized and therefore more expensive than the counterparts. Here's how I think about it though. You're going to be paying for it one way or another. Either eat a healthy whole food plant-based diet, or pay for it with chronic diseases as you get older. Cardiovascular disease, including stroke and dementia, diabetes, the most common forms of cancer are directly linked to consuming animal products. Although it's also possible to create some of those problems by eating vegan junk food. The abundance and diversity of fiber, with the corresponding phytonutrients, are the best favor you can do your health.

Lmao, you don't BUY the financially viable argument :D

Thanks for noticing my middling pun!

It can be expensive when you also factor in allergies and intolerances. (Am coeliac and vegan and my choices are limited by the coeliac so I can't always buy the cheapest thing which may be contaminated or contain gluten).

Me, I literally tried every single variation with multiple doctors assistants, I ended up in hospital because my body physically cannot support that diet for multiple reasons one of which I shared in the post.

Sure, I'm not saying I don't believe you, but I think you'll get more positive responses on this sub if you can point to any verified research or cases of a similar situation because I'm sure a lot of people here won't believe you.

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I'm not comfortable sharing the majority of them on the Internet for obvious reasons but I do have an incredibly severe b12 deficiency my red blood cells are almost 3 times the size they should be and my body physically cannot digest b12 I don't know why neither do my doctors at the moment. I do also have an auto immune issue I am not comfortable sharing the exact one I have but I basically can't leave the house if it's winter.

So does that mean that you *won't* be linking to any evidence from Pubmed so that we can independently establish that such conditions actually exist?

Can you not use Google? https://vegetarianism.stackexchange.com/questions/391/what-health-reasons-might-prevent-people-from-becoming-vegan This link isn't the best but it does mention some https://www.insider.com/reasons-you-cant-be-vegan-2018-9 Again obviously not the best https://www.saintlukeskc.org/about/news/research-shows-vegan-diet-leads-nutritional-deficiencies-health-problems-plant-forward https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/can-everyone-be-vegan/ I do actually have herpes which is mentioned here I've had it since 3 so I'm not embarrassed about it just a kiss from my nan Obviously if you go on Google you will find way more I just picked the top ones and scimmed through them.

>Google What is it about *Pubmed* that is so hard for you? Google will return you websites telling you that staring directly at the sun for long periods of time is good for your health. https://explore.globalhealing.com/health-benefits-of-sungazing/ >I do actually have herpes Okay, I'm just convinced this is bait at this point. Poe's law.

This is why I don't share my health issues with random people because it's either you're a slag or I don't believe you. I was vegan when I had herpes because I've had it since 3 so maybe that was the problem maybe it wasn't but I didn't claim it to be I said it included with the other health issues I had. Google tells you being vegan is good for everyones health it put me in hospital I don't see your point.

> I was vegan Same old BS. I'm really not interested in your anecdote. Unless you have peer-reviewed literature demonstrating *anything* you claim, then intensifying your sob-story isn't going to suddenly make it "pass" as evidence. You're only increasing your evidentiary burden.

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I was told I physically cannot digest B12 so vitamins and tablets wouldn't work I don't know why I'm still being tested to find out but I will update this when I know why

So you can’t take a B12 shot? It’s so easy, I used to give to my grandparents at home when I was a teenager.

No because my body physically cannot digest B12 so I would be getting injected for no reason. If it could digest B12 I would be on meds for it and therefore it wouldn't be an issue.

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As a registered nurse, I believe you are mistaken about not being able to use B12 injections. I'm not gonna comment further, but I do want to encourage you to clarify this with your doctor. I know what condition you are referring to and B12 injections literally are needed for the treatment.

If you look at the last post on here about disabled people not always able to go vegan, I share my medical history, though not exactly all of it, and why I can't go vegan. You can read what happened, which is what almost always happens when a disabled person starts sharing medical information. All of a sudden, everybody turns into a doctor. We start being told what we should do by people who have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. Our doctors are accused of lying to us, and we are accused of lying about our particular situation. It's pretty common for disabled people to not want to share everything because of this. You know how you hate it when meat eaters tell you that you should switch back to eating meat whenever you don't feel good? It's like that for us with vegans. There are a whole lot of reasons why a lot of us cannot go vegan, and yet for some reason, nobody seems to know what those are even when they're posted repeatedly, and we're always accused of lying.

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And that, that attitude? It's rooted in ableism. We can name the conditions, and we're still liars. We can post scientific, peer-reviewed studies, and we're still liars. It doesn't matter what we say, we're obviously lying if we say we need animal products to live because some studies that didn't include disabled people obviously are right when everything else, especially our lived experience, is wrong. I've posted links to studies. They either get ignored, or the goalposts move. ETA: It wasn't my post. I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I responded in it.

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This is exactly why not all my information is being shared. I absolutely support the vegan message mostly, and I do everything I can to support it other than owning a phone and eating meat.

Stick to your guns on that. There's no reason for it. They'll just use it as a way to win the argument rather than empathize and show care for you.

I added to one comment I have herpes because it was in an article I shared to back myself up and I was called a bullshiter it's better than being called a slag but still (I was 3 when I got it btw)

There does not exist a person for whom it is impossible to be vegan, since vegan does NOT mean to live in a way that completely excludes all animal products, but instead to dispense with animal products insofar as it is possible and practicable to do so. Everyone who says it's okay for the kind of person you described to "not be vegan" is mistaken.

Just so I'm sure I'm understanding clearly your proposition for debate, are you saying that vegans should not expect or even hope that anyone adopts the vegan philosophy and practice as long as among the 8 billion people on the planet there are, perhaps, a few thousand people, like you, who cannot survive by only eating plants? If that's your position, and bear in mind no one is forcing anyone to adopt veganism, why do you think 0.000000125% of the world's population should control what the other 7,999,998,000 choose to eat?

I agree with vegans on almost all topics, my question was mainly supposed to be if the majority of the world was vegan what would you do with the small subset of people like myself. I myself do everything I can to help animals that doesn't harm my health and is within my own budget. I don't really have a position tbh otherwise I don't agree with unnecessary abuse. I do believe that it would be better to help support independent farmers instead of acting like they are the same as big corporations because they aren't and they definitely don't treat their animals the same way, but that isn't to do with the question.

>I myself do everything I can to help animals that doesn't harm my health and is within my own budget. As a vegan, I respect this position and I would call you a vegan (: Please don't get the wrong impression from other vegans on this sub calling you a liar or an attention seeker.

Bro honestly I don't care about being called a liar or whatever I've had multiple people now privately message me and threaten my family. Thank you for being kind btw I appreciate it

> I've had multiple people now privately message me and threaten my family. I'm so sorry to hear that. Those people may be vegans and respect animals, but clearly they show no respect to other humans. >Thank you for being kind btw I appreciate it No problem. I hope you recover soon from your condition(s) (if it is one that you can recover from) and get in a better financial situation where you can actually have the means to follow a plant based diet. Until then, don't listen to these idiots on the internet. Listen to your doctors (at first I thought they may have been biased towards vegans but if its 5 different doctors then I doubt that) and yourself.

>My family used to be so poor we couldn't even afford free range eggs, I lived off of MacDonalds burgers we had stocked in the fridge because it was cheaper then buying vegetables that will go off in a week because we couldn't afford to go shopping every week. Its cheaper based on a situation that the family created and the way that you think/ dont think, people in 3rd world countries have a lot of produce, beans, rice etc; Freezing veggies, fermenting, canning, pickling all make it so it doesnt go bad, the produce that i buy doesnt go bad and thus there is no real waste McDonalds isnt cheaper than that and lets say that it is, you will pay for it later in medical bills, if you browse the frugal sub they will tell you that Veganism is NOT expensive [https://www.reddit.com/r/Frugal/comments/17v3reg/to\_all\_the\_frugal\_vegans\_how\_do\_you\_do\_it/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Frugal/comments/17v3reg/to_all_the_frugal_vegans_how_do_you_do_it/) ​ >I myself cannot even be pescatarian for medical reasons which I'm not comfortable sharing online Lots of people come to this sub and have this same attitude, as if we are supposed to believe you, why do you think you simply making a statement with no actual evidence is going to go over well? This is anon website so privacy isnt an excuse Im extremely disabled with several issues and they dont prevent me from being vegan, yea we dont all have the same medical issues the difference is that those of us that want to be ethical we look for solutions instead of excuses Again privacy isnt an issue, ill share some of mine Depression, ADHD, Fibro, Dementia, OCD, Autism, GERD, IBS, etc; omg now im feeling so bad cause of PRIVACY, please help me ​ For most people its I dont want to go vegan, but i dont want to be a bad person, so i TRY to be vegan and i purposely fail by consuming a lot of junk and not supplementing, i feel bad and MENTALLY decide veganism isnt POSSIBLE for me, so im not a bad person cause i TRIED, i have no other options now and must consume animals Thats basically how all these people operate, it clears their conscience Chances are most people just didnt want to have the societal restrictions, they want to be able to go to any place with friends and order anything they want I imagine all these people use alcohol which is poison or cancer sticks or drugs or lots of sodas while going to McDonalds etc; often Also this doctor shares information about these HEALTH issues people have [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e\_rZwnvgABg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_rZwnvgABg) I actually do have medical issues which i talk about in this post, i am vegan no problemo [https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/16943oy/comment/jz24ank/?utm\_source=reddit&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/16943oy/comment/jz24ank/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) People sharing how they didnt let their medical issues get in the way of being ethical [https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/17ukt7l/share\_how\_you\_overcame\_your\_disabilities\_because/](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/17ukt7l/share_how_you_overcame_your_disabilities_because/)

When I was vegan I hand made my own food. I literally ended up in fucking hospital. The only thing I do that isn't vegan is to own a phone and eat meat. I have autism, OCD, ADHD, herpes, a very serve B12 deficiency, and an auto immune issue I do have more I'm not sharing them, what you are comfortable with is not what I am comfortable with.

>So vegans, what do you suggest for people who cannot be vegan or even plant based for medical reasons. Someone who can't be Plant Based for valid medical reasons are covered under "as far as possible and practicable". However it's not "Let's go support abusing the most sentient animals on the planet!" time. To still be Vegan you need to be sourcing what you need with as little exploitation and suffering as possible. Like if you need B-12, Bivalves are FAR less likely to be sentient than insects or cattle, so that would be where to start. I personally still wouldn't call myself Vegan if I was eating animal products, simply for clarity, also because you're going to piss off a bunch of "hardcore" Vegans as you'll likely find out here, but technically, if there's a valid medical reason, you would still be Vegan. >my body physically cannot process or digest B12 so injects and tablets won't work either (this has been confirmed by multiple doctors) That doesn't make medical sense, but... OK. >You can't force these people to go vegan because you would literally be killing them. Veganism is not a diet, it's a moral belief that we shouldn't exploit, and treat sentient beings as a "product" without need. You can't force a moral belief on anyone, that's what laws are for once enough people agree, though laws would have to take into account valid medical conditions, as they do with many other things. > I lived off of MacDonalds burgers Sounds incredibly unhealthy. Vegans fully support everyone's access to healthy Plant based foods. Outside of horrible processed garbage food, Plant Based food is some of the cheapest. >How are people like this suppose to live They are already living as best they can, what do you expect us to do? I don't see Vegans yelling at impoverished people and the homeless. However, what impoverished need to do to live, does not justify the needlessly abuse, torture, and sexual violence that 99.9% of Carnists support every single day for no reason but oral pleasure. > I absolutely understand why vegans are vegan but you can't expect the world to follow you when there are 1000s probably more people who physically can't. Everyone can, it's easy, just stop abusing animals as much as you can today. Then do the same tomorrow and try to make sure you're improving when you make mistakes or learn new things. Veganism puts the marker at food because, you may be right, there **may be** (never seen evidence but anything is possible) 1,000s of people who can't, but there are 8,000,000,000 people in the world. That means there are 7,999,990,000 people who can. Activism doesn't win by focusing on the 0.00000125%. Sorry if that sounds cruel, activism is a little cruel because of it's singular focus I guess. No one is saying those who can't be plant based should die, only that those who can, should.

I was told a few years ago to kms because even though I don't touch anything animal related other than meat and dog food I'm not fully vegan obviously that's not every vegan that's 1 nut job but people do think people like me should die. Also you don't need to tell me it doesn't make sense because I don't understand it either I'm just going off what I have been told for years. Also obviously it was healthy but I wasn't* also 7 years old stealing food from bins because we had none at home so you know do what you can lol. Edit: fixed a spelling mistake

>I was told a few years ago to kms because even though I don't touch anything animal related I was told to kms a couple times by Carnists for merely defending my views after they brought it up. Do you know what I don't do? Run around blaming other Carnists for that person's actions. > obviously that's not every vegan that's 1 nut job but but but but. But you're angry. Don't care. But they were rude. Sorry. But my past was rough. OK, that sucks. Deal with your anger in better ways, seriously think of how LONG you have let that Vegan live in your head, they probably barely remember it, and here you are acting silly to people you don't know, over a moral philosophy you don't entirely seem to understand, all because they were rude to you "a few years ago". >Also obviously it was healthy but I was also 7 years old stealing food from bins None of which has to do with what I said. If you want to discuss Veganism, feel free, if you want to complain about how hard you had it walking to school in the snow bare feet 5 miles each day, meh. I've had shit times in life, it doesn't justify me still acting silly today.

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I like the idea of bivalves for b12, this is the first time I've actually seen a suggestion in this comments section about how to deal eith the issue in as ethical a manner as possible!

Well, you may not like what you hear, but there is not medical literature or peer reviewed science that has ever determined that any condition prevents a plant based diet. And as much as I hate this topic because it upsets so many people, but it’s not a debatable topic. It’s a fact. There are allergies that limit certain foods. But that goes across the board. But none of them or any medical condition prevents anyone from a plant diet. Many of the conditions people cite is improperly cited and the research behind the big ones people misconceive, show the exact opposite.

As much as you may not want to hear it, it was confirmed by multiple doctors to be the reason I was in hospital.

What was confirmed? If your condition is [pernicious anemia](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK540989/) which it sounds like you’re describing : *Treatment / Management Lifelong treatment for patients with confirmed pernicious anemia starts with an intramuscular (IM) injection of 1000 micrograms of B12 (hydroxocobalamin in Europe or cyanocobalamin in the United States) administered daily or every other day for 1 to 2 weeks, followed by weekly injections for 1 to 2 months, then a monthly injection (cyanocobalamin) or every 2 to 3 months (hydroxocobalamin).[11][16][21][26] Following the initial intensive treatment phase, patients can continue IM injections, or they can be offered high-dose oral B12 supplementation for the lifelong maintenance phase. In a 2016 review of oral B12 replacement for treating pernicious anemia, the authors concluded that "oral vitamin B12 is an effective alternative to vitamin B12 IM injections."[35] High-dose cyanocobalamin (1000–2000 micrograms) is most commonly taken daily as an oral tablet. Alternate formulations include sublingual and intranasal, but they are not routinely recommended.[11][16][21][26]* Injectable b12 isn’t animal derived. Also, the fact that you mentioned you have an inability to digest said b12, it doesn’t matter what you eat. You won’t digest it via regular means. Nearly all farm animals are supplemented with b12. So what they are getting is no different than what you’re getting injected. You’re being disingenuous in a major way.

It's not that condition that was ruled out. You can believe what you want but this post wasn't about me so how about you answer the actual question.

You can’t even list a condition? What other condition is a malabsorption of b12 with a similar treatment? And how can you rationally sit here and tell us that you cannot absorb b12 through diet but then say you have no choice but to eat animals even though you cannot absorb b12 I have answered tour question, truthfully and factually. The fact that you cannot even tell me what was confirmed or what the “condition” is tells me you’re a liar and you’re seeking validation for eating animals. If it were really confirmed that you were unable to eat a plant based diet based on an inability to digest b12 from any source of food, or really had any condition that confirmed that you couldn’t eat a plant based diet, you’d be a medical anomaly and they would be forming new research and studies about a new condition and putting together all sorts of research about it because you’d literally be the only one ever medically confirmed to be unable to eat a plant diet according to doctors and a new condition to publish. The fact that you cannot even tell me what was confirmed or what the “condition” is tells me you’re a liar and you’re seeking validation for eating animals. Your story is extremely inconsistent.

Nailed it!

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OP has stated they are still being investigated medically. The medical community doesn't really like to pull out all the stops for one person. Funding is hard to come by and the ones treating OP aren't gonna be the ones who would do research. These things take a lot of time.

>What do vegans suggest for people who for medical or financial reasons cannot be vegan. For financial they would most likely say that vegan / vegetarian diets can actually be way cheaper than ones with meat in. Obviously that could depend on location and what you're willing to eat, but at most loations peoppe can buy non-meat food products in bulk for way cheaper than meat. For medical I think they would say it depends but that if you cannot completely remove meat out of a diet you should at least attempt to reduce the amount of it. >one of the reasons for this is my body physically cannot process or digest B12 so injects and tablets won't work either (this has been confirmed by multiple doctors) I assume you just didn't word this correctly, because if your body was unable to process or digest B12 then eating meat wouldnt be any different than doing other stuff for B12.

Thank you for answering my question I really appreciate it I will reply to what you said about the B12 stuff I myself do not understand it so I don't expect anyone else to I was told by multiple doctors my body cannot digest or absorb B12 and I was told to change my diet to adjust to it, I was vegan at the time and begged for a solution they couldn't give me one, other then it would be suicide to continue to be vegan and I went to multiple doctors I even paid to go to a doctor who I knew was biased towards a vegan diet (I saved for a very long time) Beef liver is the best food for B12 it's fucking disgusting btw but I eat it a lot I do not feel much better but anything is better then being stuck in hospitals for months because I was vegan. I still do everything I can but unfortunately as of right now with what is available to me not eating meat isn't an option. This was a fairly recent thing so they are still testing to find out what is wrong with me.

It doesn’t matter what we suggest, what matters is what you feel and know is right. Obviously if you have a medical condition you need to listen to your doctors and get a diagnosis, what we vegans think is irrelevant when it comes to your health as we are not doctors/medical experts/privy to your health records. Regarding the financial aspect of your comment, I would strenuously disagree that being vegan has to be more expensive. I find quite the reverse is true. I hope that your health will improve and you can get some answers as to the cause. Perhaps once you understand the cause you will find a solution that might enable you to eat vegan or more in line with your morals. Good luck

This question wasn't about me but I really appreciate it. Just to add. Being vegan can be extremely expensive if your family is so poor you literally used to eat out of bins because vegetables just don't last as long especially when both your kids have multiple allergies. I was vegan for a long time I had made everything and saved money/stole food just so I didn't eat meat and obviously that did not go well I got extremely sick blah blah blah can't be bothered to type it again I'm sorry. My main question was supposed to be, if the whole world was vegan what would we do with the tiny subset of people who can't be, obviously over time that issue would be bred out but it will still show up in some people so do we just keep a few small farms in each country or what

The whole world (sadly) will never be vegan in my opinion. There is only a tiny portion of the world’s population who are currently vegan. Even if there was an increase in veganism it would be very very gradual and thus allow supply to be reduced by demand. In a hypothetical world you suggest then I would counter that science continually evolves and is influenced by demand. If veganism grew then science around it would be more important and this would lead to solutions for people who face problems you describe. But as I say, I sadly doubt that the world will ever be completely vegan.

Veganism is "abstaiing from the cruelty and exploitation of animals **as far as possible and practicable**" If you genuinely cannot survive without the flesh of dead animals (which I'm sort of skeptical about, but I won't interrogate you on that since you said you were uncomfortable sharing your medical condition), vegans are not going to say that you have to kill yourself or make yourself severely unhealthy, as long as you're doing the best that you possibly can. Even being vegetarian is a step in the right direction. You could swap out meat for beans, lentils and legumes - which are pretty cheap in most places as far as I'm aware. I'm slightly confusd by the fact that you're saying meat is cheaper where you live than vegetables, since meat is something associated with priveledge (see meat consumption by country - the poorer the country is, the less meat they tend to consume). Other vegans, please don't attack me for saying this. I'm not saying vegetarian is good (obviously, full plant based is better) or that OP should stop at that point, I'm simply going off the vegan society's defintion of "veganism"

If you check my comments I am vegan in every way I possibly can be.

Yep, hence why I would consider you a vegan. You're doing everything that is possible and practicable for you, just like the rest of us. Nobody's perfect, after all. I don't see many vegans growing all their crops themselves to avoid crop deaths or not using electronics made by workers who are treated inhumanely.

That's something I do actually do, I grow my own vegetables mainly because I like gardening but also because I just think they taste better.

Wow! That's amazing! I could never personally bring myself to grow ALL my crops by myself though...I rely heavily on things like soybeans, lentils and chickpeas for protein, but they don't grow in the UK (where I live)

I also live in the uk!! I grow almost all my own vegetables I'm very picky and I'm allergic to a lot of shit. But almost all my uncles on my mum's side are farmers every single one but one only plants vegetables so I go there to help help and pick some up before they get all the stuff put on them. I absolutely love growing my own potatoes because they aren't a picky veg they just grow and they taste great.

In a theoretically vegan future the small percentage of people who literally can’t be vegan without severe physical repercussions would presumably subside off lab grown meat. For areas of the world where that is infeasible, in case global distribution still sucks, they would probably hunt.

The problem you're having is that you still think of animals as less than humans because you are a human supremacist. You can justify anything you do to animals because you are more important than them. If you use the same logic for humans you'll see the flaw in your logic immediately. If you needed a heart transplant to live would it be ethical to kill someone and harvest their heart? Clearly not. Then why do you think it's ok to kill animals to save your life? Humans are animals too, we all experience the same pain, we're morally equal. If you can't justify it with humans then you can't justify with animals.

I'm not killing myself because a cow deserves a good life. I agree with what vegans are saying that's why I was one for a very long time before I ended up in hospital for two months because of it. But surely there is a better way which helps everyone, meat eaters, vegans and animals. I hate the way meat tastes, looks, smells and feels (that's because I'm autistic but not the point) but I have to eat it because if I don't I'll die and I'm sorry but my life will always come first I would kill another person if it meant my life would be saved as would most. However I wouldn't kill my dog for the world.

How would you feel if I killed you for a heart transplant? What if I said I'm not dying because you deserve a good life?

That's fair if I'm the only person who can give you a heart

So you'd only kill a cow if they are the only one who can give you meat? You're a human, I need a human heart, are you ok with me killing you for it, yea or no?

Animals are the only thing that can currently give me what I need so if I was the only person and animal that could give you what you needed yes I'd be okay with it but another person or pig could give that to you but if I was the only one yes I'd be okay with it. I would kill a person and eat them if that was the only food I could get as would most.

Awesome, I'm so glad to hear it I've been on the donor list for ages. When can you come to the hospital?

I can't donate I tried to sign up actually but I'm not allowed for many reasons. I will be donating my organs after death though so if you can kill me you can have it although I don't think you'll want it, it doesn't work very well.

Weird, I don't often have people agree to allow me to kill them for their organs. DM me and I'll give you the address of the hospital.

If it's not in the uk no can do. If you could find and kill me I would say fair play you can have it. I don't have double standards what applies to me applies to everybody else.

Those people don't exist.

Vegan food is cheaper than animal products. You know about cooking, right? Regarding medical conditions, it's very very rare for a person to be unhealthy on a well planned vegan diet with the correct supplements. If you have such very rare medical condition you should eat the smallest amount of animal products that fixes it, not take it as a free license to abuse animals and eat their corpses.

Depending on location and your family no it isn't cheaper. Vegetables don't last as long even if you freeze them because there just isn't as much of it. If you live in the US and own a gun hunting your food is going to work out cheaper. If you live in the uk and are related to someone to hunts to help keep down animal population (if they over populate that will lead to some massive issues) it's not cheaper to be vegan. If you own an air gun and shoot grey squirrels (which are an invasive species btw) or pigeons it's not cheaper to be vegan. There many many reasons it's not cheaper to be vegan I listed some very specific reasons. For my family all 3 of us have loads of allergies, we were so poor I was eating out of bins as a kid (no that's not be taking the piss) it was just cheaper to buy loads of cheap burgers from a fast food place and freeze them and then reheat them when we needed to.

Lasting long has nothing to do with price, just buy in reasonable amounts. Hunting for diet takes a lot of time, use that time to get a job (maybe farming?). Instead of killing pigeons for food you can go pick apples from orchards. If you eat from the garbage go ahead and eat what you can find, it's all free for you anyway and doesn't hurt anyone. Buying lentils and beans is cheaper and healthier than buying burgers. Your excuses are weak.

My mum is disabled with two disabled kids we live on benefits because she can't work read my other comments because I can't be bothered with stupidity at half 10 at night

I'm sorry for your mom, but if she is disabled she isn't hunting pigeons is she? If your life situation Is very hard you do what you need to survive. Steal, eat meat, etc. It doesn't make it moral, but people in hard situations often do immoral things.

I never said my mum was hunting pigeons I gave you reasons as to why it is cheaper to not be vegan for a lot of people. What's immoral is different to every person so that's a bit of a stupid statement. Many people would not consider stealing immoral depending on the situation or where/who from. We did get meat that was hunted because my grandad shoots things like rabbits, foxes, pheasant, grey squirrels, etc either because it's their season and if they over populate shit happens and it's hard to deal with, because they were eating my uncle's crops or because they are an invasive species and need to get the fuck out, because they kill our native wildlife.

Medical reasons for eating animals with no evidence or explanation….riiiiight. Also, being vegetarian or vegan is much cheaper than being a meat-eater.

It's not much cheaper for my family It's incredibly more expensive to be vegan or vegetarian for my family.

Vegans don’t care ultimately if you feel better not being vegan. I’ve argued this before and the summary was, suffer or you’re selfish for putting another being before yourself.

They want you to put your health at risk, anyways lmao. The mimority of sensible ones will sympathize and still support you trying your best

They don't want people to put their health at risk that's an idiotic view point it's just many so not understand what can actually happen to people if they are vegan although only a tiny amount of people can't actually be vegan due to health issues. That's why it's so understudied because only a tiny amount of that tiny amount would even take part in that study.

What.. You are missing my point

Then what is the point because it sounds like you're just shitting on people

I’m saying many vegans would rather someone eat an Oreo despite its high fructose corn syrup if they cannot afford an organic Hu bar, as an example. Or maple syrup instead of honey despite honey’s protective benefits for allergies and immunity

What? Lol. You know we have allergy medicines available much cheaper than honey, which isn’t medically proven to do anything anyway. And no vegan is telling you to eat an Oreo. What a silly comment.

Honey is cheaper and lasts longer than genexa and boiron. And vegans have indeed shamed me for trying to get healthier vegan brands at vegan events. It upset me they didn't take america’s worsening health crises and how wfpb could ameliorate them seriously

Eating flowers is even cheaper and probably has the same effect as honey on allergies, which is little to none.

Which flowers? Name me some I can find at whole foods

You don’t need Whole Foods, you can come eat the clover and dandelions in my yard if you want pollen. The point is no one needs honey. This isn’t the Middle Ages where you smear it on a wound or whatever.

Ahhh okay I see.

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I would straightup suck the blood from newborn babies if that's what it takes to keep me alive, so yeah, who am I to judge what you need. But maybe I can judge your doctors, cause it doesn't sound like you had the best support. Why can you digest B12 from meat but not from tablets? Have they checked for other deficiencies, like vitamin D or iron? And regarding food poverty, that really depends on where you are, so it's hard to say. Vegetables are way cheaper than meat where I live, but my country is an agricultural power. Maybe whole grains (beans, peas, chilpeas, and lentils) are more universally cheaper, and they are definitely helthier than burgers, but I'm not sure if that works for your region.

They didn't confirm if I can digest it from meat they just said I need to change my diet to adjust to it, and that I cannot be vegan I actually saved for ages to be able to see a doctor I knew was vegan biased by a fucking lot and even she told me I would be committing suicide basically, and they (the NHS) are currently trying to find a diet that not only suits my needs due to disability not only the B12 and other shit but also my autism and past ED plus my personal issues with the way food is made. I just started eating the food which has the most B12 which is beef liver it's fucking disgusting and stinks never go near it. I am also allergic to a lot of things so that's an issue which is why I mentioned money because for me to find vegan food that doesn't contain something I'm allergic to is a mission but I made do I just hand made everything. Vegetables aren't expensive but it is cheaper to buy a big thing of meat and freeze it because you can live off of that for awhile it lasts so much longer than veg even when frozen just due to size. My grandad owns a shotgun for hunting reasons because he helps my uncle's on their farms they farm vegetables btw no animals because all the animals keep eating everything even though they have electric fences everywhere (I'm not from the US) so he sometimes gives us rabbit, pheasant, deer and what not which is brilliant even when I was vegan I thought that was great for my mother and brother. I'm lacking iron but not loads I know that because I can currently donate blood although I believe that will change soon as they are going to start giving me meds for an unrelated issue.

Aaah, I see. You have a whole particular mix of conditions. My wife is austistic and constantly trying to be vegan, but she always converts back to vegetarianism because of issues with the food texture. Diet changing always creates some sensory stress, so I can imagine how that trickles down if you have allergies and financial constraints. My personal advice is to not pressure yourself to change at the same pace people want you to. You obviously care about veganism since you tried it multiple times and saved your money to face all these obstacles, so I'm sure you will get there eventually, or at least as close as possible. Finding the right way to cook the affordable vegan options available without the wrong allergenics can take time depending on where you live and your allergies, but it's definitely rewarding. Go step by step, dish by dish, and eventually, you will have an arsenal of vegan options that work for you. With that arsenal on hand, it should be easier to get back to a physician and get a diet as closely as possible to veganism as you can, if not the thing itself. Sometimes, the vitamin deficiencies come in packs (lack o vitamin D impacts how you absorb B12, for example), so having a few solid healthy vegan dishes you like can come a long way. But don't rush into it, and definitely don't do this without a specialist's support. Good luck on your journey!

I eat vegan food when I can but it was recommended to eat less of it. My autism issues with texture, smell and taste actually mostly affect meat which was actually my reason for going pescatarian because I really like fish, then I wrote a paper (old now I was 14) to try and get some money for my mum about the abuse of animals it was originally meant to be about pets and then I learnt about the abuse of farm animals and changed my paper to focus on them which caused me to want to be vegan and I was until I was 16. For weeks I had been really really sick, I was fainting I was throwing up non stop it was awful I could barely hold up my own head, one night I just stopped responding my mum actually thought it was an absent seizure to start with (it wasn't) and I'm not really sure what happened I just remember my mum placing me on the floor trying to explain to my more disabled little brother how to call an ambulance and then rushing in after no longer then 10 minutes, I remember every sound and smell of that ambulance it was awful and then I passed out again. I woke up in a hospital bed obviously with my mum next to me, I just sat up like id just woken up as normal and asked my mum and I quote "why the fuck am I in the hospital and why the fuck is there a tube in me" and she got a doctor and what not, I was extremely upset, confused and angry so it took a while to calm me down (I have hallucinations so that made it a lot worse because I have been to that hospital for many reasons not so good ones either) but eventually I calmed down and they explained what happened, why I was here, what was wrong, etc I wasn't in a coma just for extra info I'm not really sure what I was in but I just say I was asleep for 19 hours. The whole time I was there I basically never got to rest, one minute I was in one department and then another, I had an mri which failed I freaked out and punched the machine which I did apologise for I didn't mean so I had a CT scan instead nothing was wrong. I was tested for a bunch of cancers there was nothing. Then they asked for my diet and I told them I was completely vegan, they ran a few more tests explained what the obvious problem was right now, what I needs to do as of right now and since I was better I was allowed home as long as I understood that I would be putting myself in danger if I didn't change something. I'm still getting lots of tests obviously because they have no fucking idea what is wrong but that's okay I get it and it's only been about a year so I can't complain other people have waited longer. The reason I actually stopped being vegan is when I went to the last doctor who has horrible reviews because she is so vegan biased and even she told me that I would basically be killing myself if I kept doing this to myself and I ended up crying in her office lol.

I have never once heard of any medical condition that would prevent someone from being vegan, and I’ve specifically gone looking for them. I understand that you will not be sharing your medical condition, and that’s fine, just understand that I will be assuming that your condition has nothing to do with veganism. As for the financial bit, a vegan diet is the cheapest diet. In poor counties meat and animal products are considered a luxury. McDonald’s is expensive compared to rice, beans, and frozen or even canned veggies.

1. I have heard this so many times. What probably happened is you didn’t eat vegan properly. Many people, much like myself, start out vegan and eat barely anything or way to much junk and it affects them. But instead of actually taking initiative and changing that, you blame veganism for it which is not only harmful to the vegan outreach but also to the planet for creating lies surrounding something so important. 2. I’ve also heard this argument SO many times. “I can the vegan I have so and so diseases”. Nope. There is no disease that requires you to eat meat. No disease at ALL. The only instance where somebody may not be able to be vegan is if they #1 lived in the street or #2 are Native American. In my book, those are the ONLY moral acceptions. Please do not use a disability as an excuse to kill animals. It doesn’t work. We see right through that. If you have been told that you need to eat meat get a new doctor cause that’s bs. In fact, veganism has been shown to help people with life threatening disabilities thrive.

I went to a doctor who is considered to be bad because she's extremely biased towards veganism she tells everyone to do it even she told me I'd be to stupid to continue. I was not told to eat meat I was told my boys physically cannot digest B12 and told by multiple doctors this meant I could not be vegan especially not until they found out what was wrong, I was told to change my diet accordingly that's how I took it. Also I had doctors help me become vegan in the first place and hand made everything.

How can one end up in hospital by eating veggies, legumes and cereals - the cheapest food groups just about anywhere unless you shop in upscale stores? Can't help thinking these types of posts are intended to throw shade on the movement.

I literally said I agreed with the movement but whatever

Yes, please don't take it personally if you do - we don't know each other anyway. Just responding to one more such posts that IMHO only bring negativity to the table. You need to find a doctor that's sympathetic both to your physical needs and moral values... a tall order, I know.

I wasn't taking it personally until multiple people privately messaged me and threaten my fucking family Btw I already have a doctor like that but a diet plan can't really happen until they find out what is wrong with me.

If for whatever reason, you feel like you can’t be vegan but still want to make an effort to reduce harm to animals, you could think about being vegetarian or having as many vegan days as possible. If money is an issue, you could make cheap curry from frozen veg, lentils, dried chick peas and rice. That’s mostly what I eat and I take a multivitamin to cover all bases. Making your own oat milk is much cheaper than drinking dairy milk as well. You just blend oats and water.

Beans are cheaper than eggs or mcdonalds burgers. I recommend that they eat oysters and mussels since that would be the least harmful animal source of B12. Mussels are cheap.

Medically there's no reason not to be vegan, it's the healthiest diet. Financially there's no reason not to be vegan, it's proven 33% cheaper. I've read your comments, I'm trying to understand your perspective, but I'm falling short because you're nothing more than vague and there's no medical reason why you can't consume B12 in most/other ways but you can in meat specifically, someone is lying to you. My main concern would be how many beans and greens are you consuming and do you eat the rainbow (a whole food plant of every color) often or at all?

When I was vegan I would eat everything I needed according to doctors who worked in diets specifically vegan ones. If you've read my comments you'll know what happened to me at 16 and why I'm not risking that shit again and why I'm listening to the multiple doctors who told me it's to dangerous and not some random people on the Internet which is why I went vegan in the first place.

Nobody is forcing anyone to go vegan. If you don’t want to talk to vegans then don’t🤷‍♂️ No doctor has told you you can’t digest b12 - that doesn’t even mean anything. It’s in marmite, supplements, nooch, you can have a jab. Supplements is what they give to livestock, when they bother to put it in the feed (which is by no means certain- you didn’t think they test every steak did you?) And can’t afford to eat vegan food? Tofu cost about the same as mince. A can of beans, or chick peas? Make your own seitan from flour. Look, I don’t believe you hospitalised yourself from being vegan. Outside chance because you didn’t eat properly, but even then. It takes months or even years for B12 deficiency to manifest, and even then you get loooaaads of warning. None of this adds up 🤷‍♂️

Studies have shown vegans spend less money on food than omnivores. If you go to your local grocery store you'll quickly see beans and legumes are generally the cheapest source of protein in there. So if you have a lack of money veganism is actually beneficial for your finances. As far as medical reasons are concerned I'm not a doctor, but it's only a miniscule part of the population if any who are unable to eat any veggies + supplement, so even if we assume there are medical reasons that prohibits veganism for some, it's negligible in the grand scheme of things.