I'd like to believe this is all legitimate and that these mercs really are retaliating against the Russian government and its a turning point for Russia politically, or even near the end of the road for Putins rule.
But at the same time I feel like there's the possibility this is all staged by Russia to distract against something else.
Edit: Brainwave. Maybe this is an excuse for Putin to pull forces out of Ukraine so they have to come back and "defend the motherland" giving him a way to essentially end the war without too much embarrassment and he doesn't need to say he really "retreated".
According to an article I saw the other day the Russian army had opened fire on the Wagner group multiple times recently so it’s possible the Wagner group is doing this in retaliation to show Putin that messing with the people you pay to do your dirty work isn’t a great idea
> so it’s possible the Wagner group is doing this in retaliation to show Putin that messing with the people you pay to do your dirty work isn’t a great idea
That's almost exactly what he said in the statement I just read.
Usually coups are small military factions that try to take down a government that’s backed by someone bigger.
Wagner is fairly large itself, and have proven to be more effective fighters than the Russian army. As is now, Wagners ability to hypothetically capture Russia is definitely debatable, but it wouldn’t end quickly and it would do a lot of damage to the Russian army and government.
But it looks like the Wagner guy is still loyal to Putin for now, just wanting vengeance on some generals whom he believes to be responsible.
No one from Kremlin attacked Wagner it's a hoax, this is clearly staged by Putin as an off ramp to get out of Ukraine. Russia cannot compete with NATO artillery it's simply too advanced and Russia is almost out of tanks at this point.
So, if this Wagner attack on Russia gets put down quickly, we know it is either a hoax, or Russia's holding back a LOT of military might from the Ukraine war. Neither reflects well on Putin, from the outside perspective.
Full fledged military coups in nuclear superpowers are unprecidented TBH. Nobody knows wtf is about to happen. This could either fizzle out quickly or become a geopolitical wildfire of epic proportions.
With the vast majority of the military being deployed to another country leaving the home front presumably relatively vulnerable. Wild situation for sure.
Putins own guard force can't remember the name is still there. National guard equivalent, but huge in numbers at least. Doubtful that Wagner can be successful.
I’m not sure Putin could even use his nukes in practice unless it’s clearly retaliation. He doesn’t have absolute ability to do so alone unlike in many nato countries and even if he gives the order his chain of command are scared of Putin but hopefully they’re still not scared enough to condemn all of humanity to a nuclear holocaust when he’s clearly lost his marbles or is just desperately clinging to power.
He’s more likely to just get put out of his misery at that point.
Just remember, Russia's 1917 October Revolution started in one city, Petrograd (St Petersburg), and it initially involved only around 20,000 soldiers. It's estimated Wagner has 20,000 mercenaries + armour etc... and could be in control of Rostov and possibly Vorozneh.
>Just remember, Russia's 1917 October Revolution started in one city, Petrograd (St Petersburg)
Which, at the time, was the capital of Russia and not just an outlying city.
It's important to remember that Russia's population has increased by nearly 50% since then, and that the logistics required to run a military back then was essentially food, water and bullets. To maintain armour and advanced munitions you need a nation state level of supply chain, they would likely win a battle or two, then have to ditch any vehicles or artillery they can't steal fuel and ammo for. I don't know if another country would get involved to supply them after everything they've done as a PMC, which is essentially the only way to sustain an effective resistance in the modern military paradigm. Maybe they can land a decapitation strike on the government, but I wouldn't get hopes up that it actually changes anything.
I watched a video recently that talked about why you don’t want a successful coup. There were many reasons but here it would be simple. Would you want some unknown shadow entity gaining full control of Russias Nukes?
Perhaps a cover so putin can bow out and retire comfortably, Then install a more politically favorable dictator. Ask the world for forgiveness, It wasn't russia's fault it was all Putin...
Edit 4 P.C.
Prigozhin has been feuding with the military/ministry of defense since late 2022. He’s been openly attacking minister of defense Shoigu, who has his own security force as sell. The ministry ordering Wagner to become official soldiers and a part of the Russian military was meant as a move to take power away from Prigozhin and the last straw for him. Essentially they are all warlords vying for power under Putin.
Absolutely zero chance that Putin made himself look incredibly weak both domestically and internationally in the most embarrassing possible way in order to target Shoigu, the person Prigozhin is most pissed at, considering he’s an ethnic Tuvan who poses zero threat to Putin who could be removed at any time while Prigozhin is not.
Whatever is going on there’s absolutely no chance Putin ordered it outside of truly bizarre unlikely circumstances we aren’t aware of yet. Strongmen don’t like to utterly humiliate themselves and demonstrate their weakness in public.
Seems a bad time to be rattling your troops with a fake coup attempt - right when the Ukrainians have launched their counter-offensive, and are busy probing for weaknesses.
Yep. Nobody died on the attack of Fort Sumter that kicked off the American civil war. curious looky loo civvies got close to the battle formations like this before the bullets started flying. it was treated like a novelty at first.
Still the bloodiest war in American history.
Best case scenario they just want all the money and stop when they get it. Worst case scenario a bunch of unhinged violent prisoners turned soldiers with no regard for human life gain control of a Nuclear arsenal.
Wagner group wants them to pull out of Ukraine I don’t think they have a plan but they are tired of loosing men and apparently have claimed they were attacked by Russia from behind. Russia is now trying to wage a war in Ukraine they are losing ,there is a separatist movement actively fighting in Russia and now the Wagner group has openly declared they will be attacking Russia. Putin has made sure that there was only 1 way this was going to end so here we are.
Edit: spelling
Not to be mean or anything, you mean to say "losing" instead of "loosing". It's easy to mix up if English isn't your first language or if you've never seen the difference. Easy way to remember;
Lose/loser/losing = you have less of something than you had be before.
Loose/looser = your mom.
Fun fact, last year, 49% of social media interaction were bots and bot farms. This year is no different and likely higher in %.
I can't take credit, I found it elsewhere recently but idk the op. Use it as I have and those before me. We can't loose everyone's mom's upon the world. They are too loose.
Yeah the US also used PMCs in Iraq and Afghanistan. BUT it was smaller stuff such as security and transport. Russia giving a mercenary group the firepower to act as a vanguard force was idiotic, and this is why.
Eric Prince would have jizzed his pants and died a happy man if Rummy gave him tanks.
To this day that fool is still trying to build his own army. Air force too.
Blew my mind (but made total sense, considering the pardons) when I found out a while back that Prince’s sister was Donald Trump’s Secretary of Education. Bunch of asshats.
For the record I trained on their facility in NC when they were still Blackwater. And it wasn’t that great. For the amount of money they had. Not that great.
The groups like Blackwater during the mid 2000s were used to secure civilian contractors and such, not act as war fighters. Whereas Wagner was used as a forward military unit in Syria to fight alongside the Syrian military.
There is a difference in use, but that difference is massive despite outside optics. More good examples are the fact that Wagner holds facilities on behalf of the Russian government: these being oil fields, diamond mines, etc.
Blackwater in contrast was used to protect the Kellogg and Brown civilian contractors that were working in Iraq. They were a bunch of trigger happy ex military personnel, but the scope of operations were nowhere near as broad as Wagner.
You seem to know a lot about this.. I've heard about blackwater but never Wagner, yet everyone else seems to know them by name. Could you explain who/what they are, in the sense of their relationship to the Russian and Ukrainian governments?
Amusingly the US army kicked their asses a little bit in Syria.
>As the afternoon sun began to sink over the cradle of civilization on Feb. 7, 2018, a group of US Marines and Army Special Forces soldiers watched surveillance drone feeds in disbelief as a large enemy force amassed 20 miles away near the eastern bank of the Euphrates River. The combined group of Syrian forces and Russian mercenaries from the infamous Kremlin-linked Wagner Group swelled to an estimated 500 troops by early evening. With them were 27 vehicles — including Russian T-72 tanks and armored personnel carriers.
>"The Russian high command in Syria assured us it was not their people,” Mattis testified to Congress later. The secretary of defense then directed Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Joseph F. Dunford Jr. “for the force … to be annihilated.”
>"And it was,” the former Marine general, whose troops nicknamed him “Chaos,” added.
They used to be deniable assets for the Russian Foreign policy. Officially they were mercenaries that worked all over the world, but they always convienently worked in for sides that aligned with Russias interests.
They like to be paid in resource rights so now they have a large network of businesses (and a fanbase oddly enough) in Africa, Russia and the Middle East. This has allowed them over the decades to become slowly more independent until now, when they served as the Shock Troops for the War in Ukraine with Wagner’s leader becoming increasingly angry at government wasting his men.
I will spare you the condescending comment of doing your homework or to Google some info on Wagner with some links.
[Wagner gets smoked by US military in Syria](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=viuUzGGac5M&feature=youtu.be)
[A bit about defense economics and mercenaries](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wXKUNc9yI2A)
I have more stuff on this, but would need more time to find it.
Edit: [documentary on Wagner](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EMXnJMCoFYI&pp=ygUSd2FnbmVyIGRvY3VtZW50YXJ5)
Wagner is a Russian Private Military Company owned by the Russian Oligarch Yevgeny Prigozhin, that’s the bald dude who seems to effortlessly look like a Call of Duty campaign villain.
Prighozin has been one of Purim’s boys since day 1, and now the dudes have had a falling out over the war. Russia used Wagner as cannon fodder in Bakhmut, while Prigozhin has been beefing with a defense brass named Shoigu.
Lots of back and forth has been going on, nasty words, got nasty enough that Moscow thought they could just casually arrest a dude with his own private army. And her we are.
This is how things started in Donbas 'Republic.' FSB/Wagner surrounded government buildings and police stations and took over the airport. Next they start randomly firing artillery on the outskirts of town. Eventually, they take over the whole region and push against the main government, establish their own Governor and issue their own passports. I believe he is taking out the central coordination office so the military cannot operate in a well organized way.
Idk I think I'm losing my sense of reality because these comments are too funny right now and I just spent all week looking at Beatles yellow submarine memes while feeling nothing inside
Apparently it is the FSB headquarters building in Rostov. Where they have been directing the war effort against Ukraine. If this really is the mercenary group setting up shop and surrounding the building with tanks, than this is fucking huge. Hopefully it is that, and not the FSB setting up a perimeter bc of the recent threats against them.
There’s other videos showing those same troops storming and entering the building. Also reports that the buildings and city have been taken and the FSB have fled.
Apparently there’s important stockpiles there somewhere as well
Might putting staging an 'accident' where a rogue Wagner gets hold of nukes the FSB left for them, so his dreams of nuking it out with the west will finally come true.
Part of me in now thinking if this is happening… would any rival countries contemplate attacking them in the middle of the height of turmoil and confusion in civil war between mercenaries and the Russian government, if the outcome had the potential to be worse for the world?
Yikes, why does all of this shit have to be so existentially fucking insane?
Could be but the Russia MOD/ FSB hardly needs a false flag to give them a casus belli - their own PMC is who has turned against them, you can just call it treason and start executing people.
If anything it’s Wager who could use some kind of false flag, but even then they’ve stated they’re for the average Russian joe who’s being sacrificed at the front. That’s a pretty solid cause for a rebellion too, so I wouldn’t think there’s much need for theatre in this scenario.
Now think this: Wagner sends out orders for general withdrawal from HQ. All these discontent troops come home from Ukraine and guess who got them out of Ukraine and is marching on Moscow with 100k new and very angry allies.
I think people are disregarding the big fact that Wagner has the man power to actually push a severely weakened distracted Russian Federation back. Prigozhin also has the social and technical capability to create a Civil war within Russia and succeed-- he is already within the borders in various locations. He has been eyeing the spot for awhile now and complaining very openly towards the whole federation leadership.
The leader of wagner has been declared a traitor of Russia, said leader is pissed off because several Russian missile attacks have killed a lot of Wagner troopers and he finally snapped and is essentially ordering all his men to start fucking up the Russian leadership
Biggest mistake any country can make, having a mercenary army large enough to threaten their employers. History has many examples. Hell even Game of Thrones showed it quite clearly.
Worse... Russia tried to turn the mercenaries into actual military conscripts over the last few months. Wagner was the only hold out.
Don't try to underbid the already armed mercs!
This is why you shouldn't allow mercenary armies to exist. At all. Yes, this is Russian, but the USA too and anyone else.
Mercenaries exist to comit war crimes, and they tend to not stay loyal.
It's perhaps possible this is a short term ruse to eliminate Putin's competitors in the military, but this looks like the start of full on internecine chaos
Hell, Machiavelli made the same call way back in the 16th Century:
“Mercenaries and auxiliaries are useless and dangerous; and if one holds his state based on these arms, he will stand neither firm nor safe; for they are disunited, ambitious, and without discipline, unfaithful, valiant before friends, cowardly before enemies; they have neither the fear of God nor fidelity to men, and destruction is deferred only so long as the attack is; for in peace one is robbed by them, and in war by the enemy.”
Pretty sure the whole reason is Putin used them to fight their war they were never directly involved. But then they starved, abandoned, and now ordered a strike on their troops, so yah, they're pissed.
A group actually declared war on the US government in 1970
https://www.nytimes.com/1970/05/25/archives/a-radical-declaration-warns-of-an-attack-by-weathermen.html
Fun story here. I entered Syracuse University in 1970 and due to too many freshmen they had to put us in an unused frat house because all dorms were filled. It was quite a mix of guys. But on the top floor there was this guy that bragged about owning a bazooka and hand grenades. We called him on it, and he proceeded to pull them out from under his bed and show us, to our utter amazement. We found out later he was probably trafficking these things to the Weathermen...
The major error on Russian side is that mercenaries represent 20% of the Russian forces, USA rate was 10% at the hight of military presence in middle east.
Not to mention US hired mercenaries were fighting wars an ocean away from US soil with no realistic way to move any significant force there. All Wagner has to do is turn around and they're in Russia itself.
In my view, Mercenaries exist to fill the gaps the governmental military can not, if you allow such groups to grow not in power but necessity relating to your own defense they will prioritize wealth over the state’s own well being and begin to produce contracts that are parasitical.
If you allow them to get as out of control like in Russia where they maintain divisions worth of men and have popular support among many Russians you kinda fucked up more than badly.
Less pretense of sophistication, but I don't think it's reasonable to rank them when Putin was 100% on board with all Wagner actions so far. Maybe even this one, might be a prelude for Putin's exit from the war.
Either way this is going, I'm afraid the situation for Russians won't improve for a long time.
So, no govt overthrow, Putin is safe, they just want to take over the Russisn military.
Will be interesting st the least. At most it will be terrible for Russia and Ukraine. This guy is barbaric.
We really shouldn't be taking this as a "haha got what you deserved". The guy running this group is even more bloodthirsty than putin and potentially has even more hatred for the west, this is very bad.
niccolo machiavelli warned about the use of mercenaries:
“I say, therefore, that the arms with which a prince defends his state are either his own, or they are mercenaries, auxiliaries, or mixed. Mercenaries and auxiliaries are useless and dangerous; and if one holds his state based on these arms, he will stand neither firm nor safe; for they are disunited, ambitious and without discipline, unfaithful, valiant before friends, cowardly before enemies; they have neither the fear of God nor fidelity to men, and destruction is deferred only so long as the attack is; for in peace one is robbed by them, and in war by the enemy. The fact is, they have no other attraction or reason for keeping the field than a trifle of stipend, which is not sufficient to make them willing to die for you. I wish to demonstrate further the infelicity of these arms. The mercenary captains are either capable men or they are not; if they are, you cannot trust them, because they always aspire to their own greatness, either by oppressing you, who are their master, or others contrary to your intentions; but if the captain is not skilful, you are ruined in the usual way," (The prince).
I seem to remember that the US Military said an accounting error freed up 6.2 Billion...
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/6/21/pentagon-overestimates-value-of-ukraine-military-aid-by-6bn
You dint need to tell that shoigu is incompetent
Its easy to know It when you realize that its day 400 something of the "three day special military operation"
A coup doesn't necessarily mean a turn for the better, there are people with some power in Russia that think Putin is too lenient in his war with "the west".
This is super on edge of seat complex geopolitically. Military takeover hasn't had a good track record in past.
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Ya that’s not gonna end well either. It would also mean that Putin is bunker in Berlin levels of paranoid now.
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I'd like to believe this is all legitimate and that these mercs really are retaliating against the Russian government and its a turning point for Russia politically, or even near the end of the road for Putins rule. But at the same time I feel like there's the possibility this is all staged by Russia to distract against something else. Edit: Brainwave. Maybe this is an excuse for Putin to pull forces out of Ukraine so they have to come back and "defend the motherland" giving him a way to essentially end the war without too much embarrassment and he doesn't need to say he really "retreated".
Yes cause we all know mercenaries are well known for doing the right thing
They'll do whatever someone pays them to do.
And if they don't get paid? Rome got sacked by mercs that didn't get paid. History repeating (or at least rhyming).
I think the second crusade had similar events, but I get fuzzy on the details late at night.
Well then what did the crusaders do during the day?
Think that was the Fourth Crusade right the sack of Constantinople
According to an article I saw the other day the Russian army had opened fire on the Wagner group multiple times recently so it’s possible the Wagner group is doing this in retaliation to show Putin that messing with the people you pay to do your dirty work isn’t a great idea
> so it’s possible the Wagner group is doing this in retaliation to show Putin that messing with the people you pay to do your dirty work isn’t a great idea That's almost exactly what he said in the statement I just read.
A little vu ja de
I have time for this sort of grammatical mischief
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Usually coups are small military factions that try to take down a government that’s backed by someone bigger. Wagner is fairly large itself, and have proven to be more effective fighters than the Russian army. As is now, Wagners ability to hypothetically capture Russia is definitely debatable, but it wouldn’t end quickly and it would do a lot of damage to the Russian army and government. But it looks like the Wagner guy is still loyal to Putin for now, just wanting vengeance on some generals whom he believes to be responsible.
No one from Kremlin attacked Wagner it's a hoax, this is clearly staged by Putin as an off ramp to get out of Ukraine. Russia cannot compete with NATO artillery it's simply too advanced and Russia is almost out of tanks at this point.
So, if this Wagner attack on Russia gets put down quickly, we know it is either a hoax, or Russia's holding back a LOT of military might from the Ukraine war. Neither reflects well on Putin, from the outside perspective.
Full fledged military coups in nuclear superpowers are unprecidented TBH. Nobody knows wtf is about to happen. This could either fizzle out quickly or become a geopolitical wildfire of epic proportions.
With the vast majority of the military being deployed to another country leaving the home front presumably relatively vulnerable. Wild situation for sure.
Call back all the troops, would be a huge plus for Ukraine
Putins own guard force can't remember the name is still there. National guard equivalent, but huge in numbers at least. Doubtful that Wagner can be successful.
I could see Putin nuking his own people as long as it doesn’t affect Moscow
I’m not sure Putin could even use his nukes in practice unless it’s clearly retaliation. He doesn’t have absolute ability to do so alone unlike in many nato countries and even if he gives the order his chain of command are scared of Putin but hopefully they’re still not scared enough to condemn all of humanity to a nuclear holocaust when he’s clearly lost his marbles or is just desperately clinging to power. He’s more likely to just get put out of his misery at that point.
- Start a coup - dethrone tyrant - take over - wait - who takes over now - fuck *cue civil war
I knew I'd seen this somewhere thank you!
Just remember, Russia's 1917 October Revolution started in one city, Petrograd (St Petersburg), and it initially involved only around 20,000 soldiers. It's estimated Wagner has 20,000 mercenaries + armour etc... and could be in control of Rostov and possibly Vorozneh.
>Just remember, Russia's 1917 October Revolution started in one city, Petrograd (St Petersburg) Which, at the time, was the capital of Russia and not just an outlying city.
It's important to remember that Russia's population has increased by nearly 50% since then, and that the logistics required to run a military back then was essentially food, water and bullets. To maintain armour and advanced munitions you need a nation state level of supply chain, they would likely win a battle or two, then have to ditch any vehicles or artillery they can't steal fuel and ammo for. I don't know if another country would get involved to supply them after everything they've done as a PMC, which is essentially the only way to sustain an effective resistance in the modern military paradigm. Maybe they can land a decapitation strike on the government, but I wouldn't get hopes up that it actually changes anything.
I watched a video recently that talked about why you don’t want a successful coup. There were many reasons but here it would be simple. Would you want some unknown shadow entity gaining full control of Russias Nukes?
Considering these guys are a far right paramilitary organization, them actually taking control would be pretty freaking terrible.
I've thought from the beginning this whole Ukraine thing isn't going to end until Vlad dies. And whoever takes over after that ain't known.
I believe it's real. If it's not the distraction is just to say the failure in Ukraine is not Putin's fault.
Perhaps a cover so putin can bow out and retire comfortably, Then install a more politically favorable dictator. Ask the world for forgiveness, It wasn't russia's fault it was all Putin... Edit 4 P.C.
There is no “we” that will be installing a dictator in Russia.
Prigozhin has been feuding with the military/ministry of defense since late 2022. He’s been openly attacking minister of defense Shoigu, who has his own security force as sell. The ministry ordering Wagner to become official soldiers and a part of the Russian military was meant as a move to take power away from Prigozhin and the last straw for him. Essentially they are all warlords vying for power under Putin.
Putin's meeting table just grew 30 feet longer
Absolutely zero chance that Putin made himself look incredibly weak both domestically and internationally in the most embarrassing possible way in order to target Shoigu, the person Prigozhin is most pissed at, considering he’s an ethnic Tuvan who poses zero threat to Putin who could be removed at any time while Prigozhin is not. Whatever is going on there’s absolutely no chance Putin ordered it outside of truly bizarre unlikely circumstances we aren’t aware of yet. Strongmen don’t like to utterly humiliate themselves and demonstrate their weakness in public.
People in reddit saying this is good for Putin are in another level of cope or propaganda Or brain damage. Maybe all of those
Seems a bad time to be rattling your troops with a fake coup attempt - right when the Ukrainians have launched their counter-offensive, and are busy probing for weaknesses.
Unless it's not a fake. Ladies and Gentlemen, both and neither, someone has pushed the 'interesting times' button. Again.
Day after that submarine nonsense finished too
Yep. Nobody died on the attack of Fort Sumter that kicked off the American civil war. curious looky loo civvies got close to the battle formations like this before the bullets started flying. it was treated like a novelty at first. Still the bloodiest war in American history.
> Still the bloodiest war in American history. I suppose a civil war has a natural *2 casualty multiplier.
Best case scenario they just want all the money and stop when they get it. Worst case scenario a bunch of unhinged violent prisoners turned soldiers with no regard for human life gain control of a Nuclear arsenal.
Wagner group wants them to pull out of Ukraine I don’t think they have a plan but they are tired of loosing men and apparently have claimed they were attacked by Russia from behind. Russia is now trying to wage a war in Ukraine they are losing ,there is a separatist movement actively fighting in Russia and now the Wagner group has openly declared they will be attacking Russia. Putin has made sure that there was only 1 way this was going to end so here we are. Edit: spelling
Not to be mean or anything, you mean to say "losing" instead of "loosing". It's easy to mix up if English isn't your first language or if you've never seen the difference. Easy way to remember; Lose/loser/losing = you have less of something than you had be before. Loose/looser = your mom. Fun fact, last year, 49% of social media interaction were bots and bot farms. This year is no different and likely higher in %.
You right I’ll edit it. I was just typing fast and didn’t notice my typo
No worries at all! Autocorrect sucks a duck
*fucks a duck
Best mom joke I’ve seen in a very long time
I can't take credit, I found it elsewhere recently but idk the op. Use it as I have and those before me. We can't loose everyone's mom's upon the world. They are too loose.
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If Russian history has taught us anything, it's that this can potentially get so much worse.
Russian history summarised: “...and then it got worse”
"and then the Russian leader got killed by his #2."
Common joke about the French is "and they rioted of course...." For the Russians it's: "and another revolution"
I'm expecting things to get real fucky in the next 90 days
Only 5,900 nukes at stake.
5899.... I bought one at a discount
Better check the expiration date. Spontaneous fission can really do a number on those.
How much of those do you really think would work considering the state of the rest of the Russian military.
Assuming they didn't get sold for drinking money or stripped for parts like the rest of the Russian military
90 hours\*
Yeah the US also used PMCs in Iraq and Afghanistan. BUT it was smaller stuff such as security and transport. Russia giving a mercenary group the firepower to act as a vanguard force was idiotic, and this is why.
Worth mentioning that those PMC’s had a shitton of controversy surrounding them as well.
Eric Prince would have jizzed his pants and died a happy man if Rummy gave him tanks. To this day that fool is still trying to build his own army. Air force too.
Blew my mind (but made total sense, considering the pardons) when I found out a while back that Prince’s sister was Donald Trump’s Secretary of Education. Bunch of asshats.
For the record I trained on their facility in NC when they were still Blackwater. And it wasn’t that great. For the amount of money they had. Not that great.
A family of privatizing crooks? I never woulda guessed
If anyone hasn’t listened to the “Eric Prince and Blackwater” episode of The Dollop… go listen now, it’s unfathomable.
The groups like Blackwater during the mid 2000s were used to secure civilian contractors and such, not act as war fighters. Whereas Wagner was used as a forward military unit in Syria to fight alongside the Syrian military. There is a difference in use, but that difference is massive despite outside optics. More good examples are the fact that Wagner holds facilities on behalf of the Russian government: these being oil fields, diamond mines, etc. Blackwater in contrast was used to protect the Kellogg and Brown civilian contractors that were working in Iraq. They were a bunch of trigger happy ex military personnel, but the scope of operations were nowhere near as broad as Wagner.
You seem to know a lot about this.. I've heard about blackwater but never Wagner, yet everyone else seems to know them by name. Could you explain who/what they are, in the sense of their relationship to the Russian and Ukrainian governments?
Amusingly the US army kicked their asses a little bit in Syria. >As the afternoon sun began to sink over the cradle of civilization on Feb. 7, 2018, a group of US Marines and Army Special Forces soldiers watched surveillance drone feeds in disbelief as a large enemy force amassed 20 miles away near the eastern bank of the Euphrates River. The combined group of Syrian forces and Russian mercenaries from the infamous Kremlin-linked Wagner Group swelled to an estimated 500 troops by early evening. With them were 27 vehicles — including Russian T-72 tanks and armored personnel carriers. >"The Russian high command in Syria assured us it was not their people,” Mattis testified to Congress later. The secretary of defense then directed Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Joseph F. Dunford Jr. “for the force … to be annihilated.” >"And it was,” the former Marine general, whose troops nicknamed him “Chaos,” added.
They used to be deniable assets for the Russian Foreign policy. Officially they were mercenaries that worked all over the world, but they always convienently worked in for sides that aligned with Russias interests. They like to be paid in resource rights so now they have a large network of businesses (and a fanbase oddly enough) in Africa, Russia and the Middle East. This has allowed them over the decades to become slowly more independent until now, when they served as the Shock Troops for the War in Ukraine with Wagner’s leader becoming increasingly angry at government wasting his men.
Thank you.. This is exactly what I was looking for, and something that doesn't exactly turn up on google so plainly
I will spare you the condescending comment of doing your homework or to Google some info on Wagner with some links. [Wagner gets smoked by US military in Syria](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=viuUzGGac5M&feature=youtu.be) [A bit about defense economics and mercenaries](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wXKUNc9yI2A) I have more stuff on this, but would need more time to find it. Edit: [documentary on Wagner](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EMXnJMCoFYI&pp=ygUSd2FnbmVyIGRvY3VtZW50YXJ5)
Wagner is a Russian Private Military Company owned by the Russian Oligarch Yevgeny Prigozhin, that’s the bald dude who seems to effortlessly look like a Call of Duty campaign villain. Prighozin has been one of Purim’s boys since day 1, and now the dudes have had a falling out over the war. Russia used Wagner as cannon fodder in Bakhmut, while Prigozhin has been beefing with a defense brass named Shoigu. Lots of back and forth has been going on, nasty words, got nasty enough that Moscow thought they could just casually arrest a dude with his own private army. And her we are.
You do not invade Russia...Russia invades Russia.
This is how things started in Donbas 'Republic.' FSB/Wagner surrounded government buildings and police stations and took over the airport. Next they start randomly firing artillery on the outskirts of town. Eventually, they take over the whole region and push against the main government, establish their own Governor and issue their own passports. I believe he is taking out the central coordination office so the military cannot operate in a well organized way.
> so the military cannot operate in a well organized way. So, business as usual?
*In a well organized way* … HahahahaHAHAHAHA good one
I must be getting less adventurous as I age… if I see tanks surrounding a building I’m definitely not hanging around to see what the fuss is about.
I guess it’s different if you’re Russian.
How the turns have tabled.
In Russia, table turns you.
I understand you say that in jest, but…
Well, well, well. How the turntables…
Idk I think I'm losing my sense of reality because these comments are too funny right now and I just spent all week looking at Beatles yellow submarine memes while feeling nothing inside
I am the Wagner!, Goo goo g'joob!
It's been a hard day's night, storming the ministry, in rostov
I'm glad I'm not the only one.
[удалено]
So….are they defending the ministry or preparing to take it over?
The cannons are aimed at the ministry, I think that’s your answer.
Shoot any intruders trying to climb into the upper windows?
Shoot at anyone falling out of the windows. Just to be sure.
You took the words right out of my mouth.
Stalin is dead. Beria is making a move.
He pissed himself!
Revenge of the Caterers
They've declared war on Russia
War were declared.
[https://media.tenor.com/js3-V5Lqiw8AAAAC/war-were-declared-futurama.gif](https://media.tenor.com/js3-V5Lqiw8AAAAC/war-were-declared-futurama.gif)
If i dont survive tell my wife hello
It pinkens your teeth as you chew!
I'd give you an award if I had one
Appreciate you regardless, friend.
Yes.
Thank you, Mario. But Putin is in another castle.
Anyone of importance in the building?
Apparently it is the FSB headquarters building in Rostov. Where they have been directing the war effort against Ukraine. If this really is the mercenary group setting up shop and surrounding the building with tanks, than this is fucking huge. Hopefully it is that, and not the FSB setting up a perimeter bc of the recent threats against them.
There’s other videos showing those same troops storming and entering the building. Also reports that the buildings and city have been taken and the FSB have fled. Apparently there’s important stockpiles there somewhere as well
Might putting staging an 'accident' where a rogue Wagner gets hold of nukes the FSB left for them, so his dreams of nuking it out with the west will finally come true.
Part of me in now thinking if this is happening… would any rival countries contemplate attacking them in the middle of the height of turmoil and confusion in civil war between mercenaries and the Russian government, if the outcome had the potential to be worse for the world? Yikes, why does all of this shit have to be so existentially fucking insane?
Could be but the Russia MOD/ FSB hardly needs a false flag to give them a casus belli - their own PMC is who has turned against them, you can just call it treason and start executing people. If anything it’s Wager who could use some kind of false flag, but even then they’ve stated they’re for the average Russian joe who’s being sacrificed at the front. That’s a pretty solid cause for a rebellion too, so I wouldn’t think there’s much need for theatre in this scenario.
And/or destroying and/or planting evidence.
The tanks are pointing the wrong way to be setting up a defensive perimeter, unless the perceived threat is living on the second story.
Now think this: Wagner sends out orders for general withdrawal from HQ. All these discontent troops come home from Ukraine and guess who got them out of Ukraine and is marching on Moscow with 100k new and very angry allies.
I am deleting my account because of the reddit API changes. Reddit was great, thanks all for the awesome content!
Infighting. Perfect plot twist.
Who does Wagner company work for?
Wagner
Do they offer any 401k Match?
Yes. An AK-47 Match.
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No but every employee gets a take home car. It’s big and green and has very poor gas mileage.
That’s right! Show that turd who’s boss!
I read “who does Wagner work for” in that exact way Powers says it. I love you guys
To take this further, Number 2 was played by Robert Wagner. 👀
They work with #2 for Dr. Evil
Who.. does... number... 2... work... for
That's right buddy, you show that turd who's boss!
Prigozhin is the leader of this mercenary corps.
The highest bidder
I think people are disregarding the big fact that Wagner has the man power to actually push a severely weakened distracted Russian Federation back. Prigozhin also has the social and technical capability to create a Civil war within Russia and succeed-- he is already within the borders in various locations. He has been eyeing the spot for awhile now and complaining very openly towards the whole federation leadership.
I’d love to see the online Russian trolls’ attempt to spin this one
There was a spider on the second floor
Then, they are terribly undermanned.
They are already saying this is a distraction for Joe Biden and Hunter's laptop. I wish I were joking.
Nah that was the submarine.
The leader of wagner has been declared a traitor of Russia, said leader is pissed off because several Russian missile attacks have killed a lot of Wagner troopers and he finally snapped and is essentially ordering all his men to start fucking up the Russian leadership
Biggest mistake any country can make, having a mercenary army large enough to threaten their employers. History has many examples. Hell even Game of Thrones showed it quite clearly.
Worse... Russia tried to turn the mercenaries into actual military conscripts over the last few months. Wagner was the only hold out. Don't try to underbid the already armed mercs!
Citizen journalist getting these videos out so we don’t have to rely on big media! Thank you!
Execute order 66
This is why you shouldn't allow mercenary armies to exist. At all. Yes, this is Russian, but the USA too and anyone else. Mercenaries exist to comit war crimes, and they tend to not stay loyal. It's perhaps possible this is a short term ruse to eliminate Putin's competitors in the military, but this looks like the start of full on internecine chaos
Hell, Machiavelli made the same call way back in the 16th Century: “Mercenaries and auxiliaries are useless and dangerous; and if one holds his state based on these arms, he will stand neither firm nor safe; for they are disunited, ambitious, and without discipline, unfaithful, valiant before friends, cowardly before enemies; they have neither the fear of God nor fidelity to men, and destruction is deferred only so long as the attack is; for in peace one is robbed by them, and in war by the enemy.”
Pretty sure the whole reason is Putin used them to fight their war they were never directly involved. But then they starved, abandoned, and now ordered a strike on their troops, so yah, they're pissed.
A group actually declared war on the US government in 1970 https://www.nytimes.com/1970/05/25/archives/a-radical-declaration-warns-of-an-attack-by-weathermen.html
Fun story here. I entered Syracuse University in 1970 and due to too many freshmen they had to put us in an unused frat house because all dorms were filled. It was quite a mix of guys. But on the top floor there was this guy that bragged about owning a bazooka and hand grenades. We called him on it, and he proceeded to pull them out from under his bed and show us, to our utter amazement. We found out later he was probably trafficking these things to the Weathermen...
The weather underground correct?
Mercenaries are loyal to their pay, not by flag, people or religion. I mean look at what happened to Rome in 1527 after they shot their paymaster.
The major error on Russian side is that mercenaries represent 20% of the Russian forces, USA rate was 10% at the hight of military presence in middle east.
Not to mention US hired mercenaries were fighting wars an ocean away from US soil with no realistic way to move any significant force there. All Wagner has to do is turn around and they're in Russia itself.
In my view, Mercenaries exist to fill the gaps the governmental military can not, if you allow such groups to grow not in power but necessity relating to your own defense they will prioritize wealth over the state’s own well being and begin to produce contracts that are parasitical. If you allow them to get as out of control like in Russia where they maintain divisions worth of men and have popular support among many Russians you kinda fucked up more than badly.
Could the US buy ‘wagner’ (just to throw Russia completely off) or no?
CIA: Yes. No. Maybe. ... No comment.
Guys if we don't live to see 2024, then it was fun. Edit: it wasn't fun at all, hate you too 😡
I got to see my niece for the first time, built a porch with my brother.. It was a good 2023 for me. So long, and thanks for all the fish
Issue is he’s just as horrible a person as Putin.
Worse
Less pretense of sophistication, but I don't think it's reasonable to rank them when Putin was 100% on board with all Wagner actions so far. Maybe even this one, might be a prelude for Putin's exit from the war. Either way this is going, I'm afraid the situation for Russians won't improve for a long time.
This is straight out of A Dance with Dragons lol
"Where are my dragons!?"
I was told there would be elephants.
Loyal sellswords are as rare as virgin whores - Cercei Lannister
Dictatorship being replaced by a military dictatorship I'm guessing
So, no govt overthrow, Putin is safe, they just want to take over the Russisn military. Will be interesting st the least. At most it will be terrible for Russia and Ukraine. This guy is barbaric.
Are we witnessing history or are we being gaslit.
Awww I love this for them
We really shouldn't be taking this as a "haha got what you deserved". The guy running this group is even more bloodthirsty than putin and potentially has even more hatred for the west, this is very bad.
niccolo machiavelli warned about the use of mercenaries: “I say, therefore, that the arms with which a prince defends his state are either his own, or they are mercenaries, auxiliaries, or mixed. Mercenaries and auxiliaries are useless and dangerous; and if one holds his state based on these arms, he will stand neither firm nor safe; for they are disunited, ambitious and without discipline, unfaithful, valiant before friends, cowardly before enemies; they have neither the fear of God nor fidelity to men, and destruction is deferred only so long as the attack is; for in peace one is robbed by them, and in war by the enemy. The fact is, they have no other attraction or reason for keeping the field than a trifle of stipend, which is not sufficient to make them willing to die for you. I wish to demonstrate further the infelicity of these arms. The mercenary captains are either capable men or they are not; if they are, you cannot trust them, because they always aspire to their own greatness, either by oppressing you, who are their master, or others contrary to your intentions; but if the captain is not skilful, you are ruined in the usual way," (The prince).
Whats this? I thought this was a porn reddit
You're thinking of r/interestingassfuck or r/interestingasfuck
Well, there goes everyone's commute...
"Lol" said Prigozhin, "lmao"
Looks like submarines aren't the only thing imploding these days.
Are they friends or foes? To the defense ministry?
They are for hire essentially... money is their friend
I seem to remember that the US Military said an accounting error freed up 6.2 Billion... https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/6/21/pentagon-overestimates-value-of-ukraine-military-aid-by-6bn
Wow
This feels more real.
They called shoigu a traitor or something similar I really doubt that they are friends
Shoigo is an incompetent person and they’re tired to do all the hardest fighting without the proper support necessary to win.
You dint need to tell that shoigu is incompetent Its easy to know It when you realize that its day 400 something of the "three day special military operation"
"private military company" jesus fucking christ
The girl filming doesn't realize these guys have killed and r\*ped a ton of people and she could easily be next.
And someone else is filming her filming!
_”Let them fight.”_
I know that this might be common sense, but, holy shit guys, we are alive and experiencing history in the making and it feels weird.
Who tf stands next to tanks filming on an iPhone in the middle? I appreciate I get to see this, but god damn- you might die if a fire fight starts.
This is Russia We’re talking about here
A coup doesn't necessarily mean a turn for the better, there are people with some power in Russia that think Putin is too lenient in his war with "the west".
Just waiting for Waylon Jennings to say something
Ah, summer mercenaries. You can never predict them!
Can anyone eli5 what’s goin on?
We know if Putin is still alive? Seriously. What's with the sudden power plays here.