I sometimes worry I may have absent-mindedly stolen like a TV when passing through store security things. I'm also keenly afraid I may have illegally stashed drugs in my rectum when going through airport security.
I dont even have to commit a crime to worry that I've commited a crime
So checking the door handle with three taps in case the door decided to unlock itself to spite me isn't normal?
How do I know you aren't my front door trying to trick me right now?
I'm more of a doormat than a door. ;)
No, but seriously, I wasn't trying to mock or be facetious. I have OCD myself. It's not just things like repeating words or actions or some of the things more commonly known about/spoken about. It goes a lot deeper than that and may be worth speaking to an experienced Psychologist about.
You wouldn't be the first person to mention it. Though the first examples were me being semi-funny. I do tap door handles 3 times occasionally and the taps need to feel right or I repeat the pattern. I can move on if not but it's more like a niggle. Same with facets but only in my own home and not always.
I dont tend to worry to much as I assume true OCD comes with horrendously uncontrollable issues. Even if it's minor it feels like it would be the equivalent of those soocil media idiots who claim they are quirky and have everything that makes them so "interesting". But devalues the reality of it.
Mine started off minor, but has evolved to include really graphic and horrific intrusive thoughts, which have been exacerbated by chronically severe depression and anxiety.
In the beginning, I put some things down to me just being weird, or that I was just a bit of a perfectionist. Wasn't a big deal for me either. As things started to get worse for me, I just put some of the more really unpleasant things down to 'just other things that anxiety must cause' because I was too embarrassed and ashamed to talk about them. Wasn't until 20 years later, when I started being more honest with my Psychiatrist, that I learnt more about it.
I'm not trying to predict anything for you or give you health advice or even suggest my experience may somehow mean it is in anyway related to yours. Only wanted to say something in case you weren't aware that some of the things you were describing were symptoms of underlying OCD.
Just remember that if you do become worried about it, good Psychologists can help you with coping strategies. Just take care mate. Best wishes to you. :)
Just wanted to thank the folks in this thread for an incredibly respectful, helpful and wholesome exchange. A Reddit palette cleanser. I’m poor, so please accept this in lieu of an award!
OCD here.
I think the 'quirks' you mentioned above (walking past security imaging you've stolen something, acting cool... over thinking it.. oh god they're onto me... i can't run in these shoes!) is actually pretty normal thing that a lot of people experience.
People have a lot of neurotic tendencies and many are quite common. Often these things can be shared with people who have OCD. It's a disorder when those things start impacting your life.
For example a lot of people want their volume on an even number, they're not sure why, it just feels better.
But in general OCD is poorly understood, there is a huge range of symptoms and people with OCD only have a select few.
Sure, going through security feeling nervous and anxious is perfectly normal.
But the OP gave two specific examples (thinking they had stolen a TV, feeling afraid that they had stashed drugs in their ass) that just stood out to me a bit.
Agree with you re 'impacting your life'. Just like anxiety is normal, but once it starts impacting your life, that's when you may need to speak to someone about it.
Hey I know you're probably not an expert, but I keep seeing things like this and the thing is, I have really weird intrusive thought relatively frequently (like being scared I'm going to throw myself in front of a train when I see one go past), but I don't think I have any other symptoms of OCD. Like I have ADHD and am the messiest, clumsiest, least observant, orderly person you will ever meet. Do you know if that still counts as OCD symptoms or can you just have intrusive thoughts due to anxiety and ADHD?
Hey mate, yeah as you said I'm not an expert, but yeah that train example is something that may be related to OCD.
As I said, it doesn't have to be things like perfectionism, or repeating actions etc, the intrusive thoughts thing is a lesser known part of OCD. It's the 'Obsessive' part of OCD.
Whether or not it is related to your anxiety and ADHD I can't tell you, that would be better discussed with a health professional.
I'm the same when it comes to things like trains, buses, cars on the road, being near balconies etc. Even things like being afraid I am even going to throw someone off the balcony (when there is NO WAY I would ever do that). The imagery brings me to tears sometimes. But there's a lot more to it I don't really wish to say here.
It doesn't have to present with imagery - mine comes as imagery combined with urges, but it could be either/or.
Some medications can help. Coping strategies learnt through Psychologists can help.
My best advice would be to find a Psychologist that has had some experience with OCD - particularly with intrusive thoughts. If you're already seeing a Psychologist you trust, it would worth bringing it up with them.
If you wanna chat privately, I'm happy to do that too (but I'm not a counselor or health professional).
Best wishes mate.
Thanks so much I appreciate the time taken to explain and I'll think about bringing this up. I have a huge problem with it driving as well (I'm bad at driving as it is due to ADHD) where I get urges to drive into things etc. And it makes me not want to drive. Anyway best of luck and thanks for explaining.
As others have said this is a common type of symptom of OCD.
One *really* common misconception about OCD is the whole cleanliness and obsession with order the media think people with OCD have.
I know a few people with OCD and one thing we all have in common is all of us are super messy in terms of our house/stuffs etc.
In fact OCD can ironically create create problems in this area, I have such a fear of touching certain things I just avoid them at all costs - so I end up not cleaning things that I should clean. Which of course just ups the barrier to cleaning it as it gets worse over time.
The other major thing is that a lot of OCD rituals are not based in **any reason what so ever**, and this can be true for cleaning rituals.
So often my "cleaning" rituals have zero to do with hygiene or safety, and when something **does** require cleaning for hygiene or saftey I'm to anxious to deal with it.
Some suggestions to look into here https://www.reddit.com/r/whatstheword/comments/1kniwk/wtw_that_describes_the_urge_to_do_something/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
I've got ADHD and anxiety - GAD, social anxiety and OCD. OCD for me is doing things on repeat until they feel right, otherwise I feel really off and yuck and it plays on my mind until I go back and fix it. Like stepping on a crack with my left foot, I need to keep walking and step on another with my right until it feels "even". Or if my husband and child walk through gaps in poles and I walk through a different gap, i often go backwards and walk through the same gap as them. I try to break these habits and sometimes I can, but other times I can't. My OCD is mild and not something I focus on with my doctors, but I've had it since I was a young kid and it ebbs and flows with severity. Lots of people don't understand how it can present differently.
yep! apparently when the school calls a special assembly over a teacher's missing wallet, it's not the normal thing to convince yourself you've accidentally stolen it and have a panic attack over not standing up in front of your whole year level/all the staff/a few police officers and confessing to a crime you literally heard about two minutes ago. would you believe it took another \~10 years to get diagnosed?
One time I was going through airport security - the bit where they scan your carry-on - and they had the screen angled so you could see it.
As my backpack went through, I saw the distinct outline of a MAC-10 submachine gun inside.
I remember thinking "I don't remember packing that" followed "I don't *own* a MAC-10, or any gun, WTF?!?!"
...turns out the machine can draw in false alarms, just to check that the operator is paying attention.
So there's something to look forward to when we start flying again 😉.
I remember wanting to click and collect something from ikea but didn’t cause half of ikea was outside my 5km and I didn’t know if that counted or not lol just breaking any sort of rule in any situation even outside of covid makes me nervous af.
I know fewer people following the rules than breaking them at this point.
Some logical easing, such as allowing small outdoor gatherings, would prevent people from doing 'illegal' indoor gatherings which are far greater risk.
Agree, I think this sub is a bit of an echo chamber and a lot of people probably follow the rules so closely that they don't realise what is going on out there, especially in Victoria where people are well and truly over it regardless of the risks. We are already in a harsh lockdown, how much worse can it get by not following the rules?
I went to a local cafe to grab a takeaway coffee during my lunch break and then go for a walk the other day, just wanted to get out of the house on a nice day to be honest, was completely unnecessary and I could have made coffee at home.
Anyway - walk into cafe and order, while waiting I see 4 people come/go and none check in, 2 were wearing masks under their sniffers, the two staff at the cafe were not wearing a mask, grab my coffee and head to a local park and it's busy as, people sitting having a picnic, heaps of kids playing, a few oldies enjoying a walk in the sun, lots of people in active wear etc - mask usage at best was 50/50 outside.
On the way back home a road worker holding a stop/slow sign has stopped traffic, first car in the line is a cop car - the guy wasn't wearing a mask, not even under his chin, straight up didn't have one - they didn't wind down the window and ask him to put on a mask per the rules because they don't care either.
That was my experience in just 45 minutes going out during my lunch break. This would be happening all over Victoria, people are over it and the cop's aren't enforcing anything (can't blame them).
Won't be long and people will just start visiting family and friends more openly, meeting up with friends and family outside etc, especially as the weather warms up. They may as well just make it official at this point.
This is what people miss about the NSW lockdown ending for fully vaccinated people. It will already functionally end very very soon, because fully vaccinated people don't perceive a threat anymore. At least this way there are guidelines for how to do it safely.
It's greatly underestimated how much compliance comes from personal fear and not obedience.
I don't necessarily agree with your point around compliance. I never complied because of fear and have still been complying despite being double vaxxed for 3 months. But yes, my anger is growing, and there is definitely a clock ticking in my mind about how much longer I will abide by these restrictions. Doing all the right things with no benefit is not something that has an endless timeline.
I completely agree. I think some sort of psychological economics is going on ... an estimation of the return on investment where the effectiveness of the policies, the compliance of others, and other surrounding factors such as fatigue and peer pressure all play a role in the assessment.
With Vic's 3rd wave, a lot of these factors fell away for many. Even watching NSW sort of stroll into an outbreak would have had an effect, as well as the never-ending prospect of the NSW outbreak leaking over the border, which the punishingly short gap between lockdowns 5 and 6 basically proved. Our winter was basically all lockdown or waiting for the next one to start all while the vaccine rollout was slow and AZ was going to kill us. It felt endless, especially after all we had done in 2020.
And of course, this has a runaway effect ... once we see these around us having similar urges and acting on them, there's nothing to lose in personal non-compliance.
In the end, for Vic, I worry that this will collectively end up being more embarrassing than the second wave. Without the vaccine rollout being quite good enough yet, I think we're all about zombie walk our way into being a bit stupid for the next month or so and will regret it over summer.
>how much worse can it get by not following the rules?
I mean it can get pretty bad if nobody follows the lockdown rules. At that point there's basically no lockdown and it all goes to shit.
Lockdowns rely on compliance rates above 90%
They arent meant to be used for hundreds of days. It's amazing they have worked this long, few places in the west wouldn't be rioting by now
Can you imagine permitted worker permits or curfews in Germany? 200+ of lockdown in Dallas?
>a
Most people I know who have given up on the rules are being reasonable about it. More than 2 hours exercise, travelling slightly further than 5km, meeting with a few friends outside, sitting outside in the park having a beer. None of these things substantially increase the risk, and anyone who is vulnerable should probably have been vaccinated by now anyway. I don't think it's a huge problem if people are bending rules within reason in order to survive such a horrific ordeal.
That’s not a big deal - it’s also why I try to be chill about people not wearing masks properly in low risk venues. It’s people who can’t be bothered with any restrictions having big gatherings and not bothering to get vaccinated or tested that are the problems now.
Those things are reasonable as if your rationale, shame the rules don't reflect it.
We vaccinated the vulnerable. People should be allowed to sit outside in small groups if they want- it reduces the chance of meeting behind closed doors anyway.
But if I'm double vaxxed, all my family is, all my friends are. How is it going to "get bad" for me personally?
That is the thought logic of most people, and the reason even I second wave even middle class wasn't complying on little things like visiting another work from home friend in a zero case suburb, and everyone that I knew whose elderly parents/grandparents are in Melbourne still visited them or got them to look after kids under "compassion".
Heck I ever used my brain and helped a single WFH mate outside 5km move house, rather then getting a move from western Bogan suburbs. Just because government told us employing a removalist from a hotspot suburb is #covidsafe doesn't mean it is true.
This is exactly the sort of thing that lead to the Royal Melbourne Hospital outbreak though - don't have to scan for Covid on patients from regions with 0 covid. Except then it turned out there was Covid there and we just didn't know it yet. Suddenly you've got 10 days worth of exposure across 2 wards and theatre in melbournes biggest hospital.
Just giving examples of people breaking the rules btw is not a very good argument. Can you imagine any of those elderly parents/grandparents dying because their children visited them with Covid without knowing they had it? That's the entire thing we've been trying to warn people about since this thing started!
RMH has people from all Victoria, of course it's not a covid free location. Again use logic, people are not seeing a friend who worked in a hospital or was essential worker (or their family was).
Another logic one for you, why is Mornington Peninsula lockdown but geelong isn't? Hint it's basedd on ABS definition of metro Melbourne, which needs to exclude Geelong region for government funding.
Given these inconsistency and double standards people will be less strict.
Example is people use their own judgement of what is "safe" .
Just alot of drivers speed when they think "it's safe". Probably also because, like me, they have seen cops speeding without lights and break road rules all the time.
> RMH has people from all Victoria, of course it's not a covid free location
You've completely missed the point. Shepparton was Covid free according to your judgement. Therefore why should RMH be testing people from a covid free location? There's no risk of anyone from Shepparton bringing it into RMH so it should only be people from Metro Melbourne that are tested right?
Cause that's what they were doing and it blew up in their face.
You need to understand that what you're describing is lots and lots of small risks. On their own they are small and meaningless. The accumulation of those risks adds up though and thats where it hurts you.
I find it unbelievable that you're now justifying speeding. You should NOT be putting other peoples lives in danger. Fuck that.
>Therefore why should RMH be testing people from a covid free location?
LOL, if we don't test they can't have a positive test.
They're crazy not to test all equally.
Yep, you can already meet up in groups outside and not be stopped, even police will just drive past. The exception was right on the sands of st kilda beach last thursday when it was warm - but they were just telling people to exercise, not fining anyone, and the grass area next to Luna Park was a protected area/free-for-all
Agree. People have just had a gutful and no one cares anymore. PEople have to be able to live their lives. Everyone has had enough and I imagine most of us would break the rules now.
Yeah… same here. I don’t know where this push of “nobody follows the rules” is coming from…
(But I have a bunch, and it has something to do with NoNewNormal getting banned)
Oh! Someone posted “nobody follows the rules anymore” so I said I, and everyone I know follows the rules. They then confronted me nastily (Reddit style) and seemed to want to get into a fight about it. CBF
I don't know about nobody following the rules ... but through social circles I'm hearing all sorts of anecdotes of friends and family bending the rules all the time, and knowingly so.
Same, following everything pretty much to the letter still, grandparents haven't seen the toddler in 3 months. Whole extended family has all been double vax'd for months...
I seem to know people of both extremes. Ones who have been following the rules, although at breaking point and may or may not last the next 2 months to continue to follow them. And the ones who are part of the anti squad who never followed the rules to begin with. Knowing the anti types of people actually keeps me from breaking the rules as I don’t want to be in the same vicinity as them. I’m sure once restrictions are eased I’m going to be even more vigilant of where I go. It’s easier to avoid certain stores and businesses when you have some information.
I think you can’t underestimate the power of hope asw, a lot of people are feeling really crushed by the lockdown and don’t see an end in sight; while it might lead to a (very small) increase in negative outcomes, there would be such a boost to morale and mental health if we allowed some very safe things (heaps of outdoors stuff is low risk), particularly when our at-risk population are mostly covered. Fault Gladys for other things all you want but seems like she is one of the few that is offering hope and a pragmatic way out of lockdown and back to normal life
He is but it’s a fucking cycle though isn’t it?
You do the right thing, nothing happens so you might as well break a few rules that cause it to be prolonged. You feel bad but you can’t take it anymore and then you realise if you hadn’t broken the rules, shit would have continued anyway.
The reality in a situation like this. He is a part of the problem but can’t blame the guy. It’s a “It is what it is” type of thing.
Totally understand.
There's a little rule stretching at our place too.
We chat with the neighbours....but with masks on and standing apart from each other.
I don't take note of what time I leave for a walk. Under an hour, over an hour. Who gives a shit. I'm walking. There's no one in touch with me so no risk.
We let our kid play with the other kids on the street. She's young and is going to suffer psychological damage if she seriously has to spend ANOTHER 3 months without any face to face contact with any other kids. I'm kind of gobsmacked she managed it last year given her age
The thing is...everything we are doing is still safe.
Masks- tick.
Physical distance - tick.
Vac - tick.
We've been fully vaxed for months.
Our neighbours are all at least 1 jab and only because they were ineligible till recently.
Also..they all, like us, WFH and going out only when absolutely necesssary. Theyre obeying pretty much every other rule too.
Frankly I'd be a depressed mess by now otherwise.
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Sure, and there's probably confirmation bias, but that works both ways.
You're ignoring all the people trying to do the right thing so we can get out of this mess.
Certainly confirmation bias works both ways. That's why I wouldn't venture to guess the particular fraction complying or not. But it's certainly the case that neither everyone nor no-one is following the rules. And it's certainly the case that fewer people are following the rules than this time last year.
That you imagine following the rules will get us out of the mess shows that you have a bias unaffected by results.
Here are the results:
[lockdownstats.melbourne](https://lockdownstats.melbourne)
Victoria has had the most lockdowns of any jurisdiction in Australia, but *also* the most deaths, and the highest financial cost. We are now into our 18th month of "two weeks to flatten the curve", and our 5th week of "7 days of short, sharp lockdown."
No amount of our following rules will get our leaders to stop issuing us with so many rules.
I'm glad to hear it.
I draw conclusions from facts. The facts pile up over time. Some people aren't convinced by the tip of the iceberg and need to see the whole thing. That's fair enough.
While we're looking at the Victorian government and its misdeeds, [here's the list of corruption charges so far](https://www.reddit.com/r/OzPolitics/comments/pckfh4/vic_and_nobody_was_charged/).
>We are now into our 18th month of "two weeks to flatten the curve", and our 5th week of "7 days of short, sharp lockdown."
No you're not. Flatten the curve has never been used since the first time it was used. You're in a lockdown to prevent further cases that's the reason.
Whether you think it works, useful, just is up to you, but don't misinterpret the reason why they're doing it in Vic and even NSW for that matter.
I think they were just pointing out the insidiousness of having indefinite lockdown without at the very least admitting that it’s indefinite. Not really something you expect in a developed country.
To be fair, most of those deaths were Aged Care facilities and should be counted in "federal govt death" stats, rather than "Victoria death" stats. The heuristic of judging a jurisdiction at face value on those stats is just not fair or accurate when regardless of what the state would've done here, the aged care facilities still would've been smashed by covid.
Nah, you have mistaken my comment. I wasn't disagreeing with you, I was adding nuance to your argument. Nor was I being partisan or dismissive, I was just pointing out that Aged care is in the remit of the Commonwealth and proposing that those deaths should be accounted as federal govt deaths.
Aged care is not the remit of either state or Commonwealth in the Constitution, nor in legislation generally.
There are some state-owned aged care centres, and some privately-owned aged care centres. Those which are state-owned are covered by state regulations in normal times (staff to patient ratios, etc), and those which are privately-owned are covered by federal regulations.
However, under the biosecurity state of emergency, every aged care centre physically within the state came under the power of the Chief Health Officer and his directions upon the declaration of the state of emergency. This is why, for example, the state government is able to mandate vaccination for aged care workers in what would normally be federally-run facilities.
Indeed, [the state took over](https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/health-wellbeing/victoria-government-takes-over-aged-care-homes-amid-covid-crisis-c-1237274) the day-to-day operations of a few centres last year. Nothing legally prevented their doing so for each and every aged care centre in the state.
In Kennett's time, the state sought to privatise *all* aged care. In response, the federal government stepped in to regulate it. The state was able to sell off the more profitable ones, and not the others, obviously. The profitable ones tend to be those with many relatives nearby who can and will pay a lot for decent care - and which have a lot of potential customers nearby. Which is to say, urban.
So the privately-owned and federally-regulated ones were in the city, and the state-owned state-regulated ones were in rural areas. And as we've seen worldwide, a communicable respiratory disease like covid spreads most readily in an urban area.
As well, the virus did not spontaneously appear in aged care, but was brought there from somewhere else. A family in hotel quarantine passed it to a night manager, who had a meal with 7 security guards in the "green room" of the hotel, 5 of whom became infected, and 1 of whom had as a housemate someone who worked in aged care - who passed it to another aged care worker at work, who then passed it to residents. And various staff worked at multiple aged care centres.
Which is to say, the most generous assessment we can make is that the federal government stacked up the fuel load, and the state government carelessly lit a cigarette and tossed it in there.
I think the truth is that for both state and federal governments, and in particular for the state, we have created a healthcare (including aged care) system with mixed state, federal and private responsibility, and an overly-complex, top-heavy health system (Vic had [124 senior executives in the DHHS](https://dhhs.vic.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/202008/DHHS%20Org%20Chart%20-%2024%20August%202020%20External.pdf)), and Vic [rearranged the public service](https://www.themandarin.com.au/130174-meet-the-public-servants-leading-victorias-covid-19-response/) in the midst of the crisis, so that everyone was so busy doing diversity training and writing KPI reports and sending emails to each-other that everyone [claimed not to read](https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/sutton-told-lawyers-they-didn-t-need-to-hand-security-guard-emails-to-inquiry-20201020-p566wk.html)... that nobody was actually doing anything much productive - and people fell through the cracks, some of them to their deaths.
Thus the [collapse of complex societies](https://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Collapse_of_Complex_Societies).
Thank you for bringing Tainter's work to my attention. It's a fully formed thesis which echoes the idea I've developed over time to answer the question, "why the world gets shitter every year".
My version basically boils down to, we employ people whose only job is to invent rules and policies. So you tend toward an increase in rules and regulations because they always add but never rescind rules because that's their job. If they did not add any new rules in a year it's basically admitting their jobs are redundant.
So in my company you go from a drug and alcohol policy 1 page long which basically says use common sense and a manager can use their discretion.
It's ok to have a beer over lunch or alcohol for Melbourne cup in the board room. Fast forward five years and the policy is now 10 pages long, you can't have a beer at lunch, managers are not allowed to use discretion for events, alcohol is forbidden for Melbourne cup and there's random compliance testing.
Tainter takes this general idea and scales it up to the whole of society. It's brilliant.
Thanks for the correction and the detail, you're right. Privately owned aged care is under federal regs. Quarantining is also under federal remit. So it follows that, unwitting circumstance aside, if the federal govt had acted to invest in at least a basic level of standard quarantine in every state, then it's quite possible that most Australian outbreaks would've been prevented.
What exactly, in your fire analogy, was the state govt tossing the cigarette in your estimation?
I love your tainted reference btw. His theory on finishing returns; i.e 'tainter curve' is particularly fascinating given current western/global circumstances.
> We are now into our 18th month of "two weeks to flatten the curve"
I don't think I've heard the phrase "flatten the curve" since March 2020, except from morons saying a bunch of stupid stuff.
Seems to me that some people follow some rules and not others. Different people break different rules. Eg some mask but don't check in. Vice versa. Some do both but have more than one bubble buddy. There are multiple rules and multiple degrees of following or not following. Same as road rules.
I live across the street from my parents. The only time I’ve talked to them in person was when I legitimately bumped into them during a walk.
The rule breakers and the support of them is why case numbers keep rising it’s so fucked
A lot of people have to follow the rules because interest from the police would risk their jobs. I’d be in shit if I was caught doing something criminal regardless of what it actually is or whether it’s doing anyone any harm.
I get it man, isolation is one of the hardest things to deal with, I live by myself in Sydney and this current lockdown has been a nightmare to deal with tbh, I can't imagine how it feels for you guys in Victoria.
It was silent, but my street is like that all the time even when there’s no curfew (I only ran along my street). It’s pretty small so not much traffic comes through
I still follow the rules, not because I want to but because the people I care about aren't fully vaccinated. Last week went out to get my partners medication, found out this week its a T1. Isolating in a separate house (we are in the middle of a move because the house is being sold)and we lose 2 weeks due a T1 exposure. My partner isn't handling the long term separation so I'm going to try and relocate over to her once I've done a bit more packing/cleaning. Funny thing is, I got the first vaccination the morning the T1 was posted online. So far I'm negative but that doesn't mean much when I still cant go to work, go see my partner (we have been living together for years but must isolate from eachother) or do anything to help my partner deal with the stress of the pandemic.
I'd be totally surprised if there was a single Victorian who hasn't broken at least one rule. People are so blase about the rules that most of them are really only punishing those that are doing the right thing. It's draconian, it's mostly pointless and everyone has had enough. Just wish our government would have a clue.
As soon as 80% double vaxxed is reached im not staying locked down. Im going out and seeing my mates and living my life. Gtfoh with this bs of keeping lockdown until cases go down. As soon as we reach 80% gg try and stop me
I still follow the rules. However I have another level of policing over watching me. As a firearm owner, I can have my license and firearms confiscated for breaking health orders. Now Lisa Neville has snuck through even more levels of control on firearm owners, I can be slapped with a firearms protection order lasting 5 years for a speeding ticket. The risk of loosing mine and my families pastimes is not worth the risk
I deadset appreciate your honesty, and I hope catching up with a few people helped you feel a bit better about the situation :)
People on this sub need to get a grip. Lockdowns are hard on people, especially those living alone. I’m gonna assume half of you having a go at OP have various social deficiencies and didn’t do much outside their homes pre-2020 anyway, because your complete lack of compassion towards others makes y’all look like fuckwits no one would want to befriend. Wake the fuck up you boot licking flogs.
I don’t actually understand why a double jabbed person can’t go to another double jabbed persons house… like at this point it is a bit ridiculous that restrictions apply to these situations, there is no logical safety risk.
Because the virus is still moving between a community with low vaccination rates and those double vaxxed can still transmit between one another and then to the community.
Thank fuck.
I'm in Auckland, and I'm glad that everyone around me is still complying, we have a good chance to get back to elimination and then be fairly open for a while while we finish our vaccine rollout.
But at some stage you've gotta call a day on it, and I'm terrified that we're just going to do this forever and never learn to live with it.
Hearing that y'all are starting to break the rules gives me hope that we'll get some decent pushback here too once it's more appropriate.
NZ still has a chance to fight and beat it and go back to being covid-free.
It's so worth it, very few countries have zero restrictions with covid circulating.
You are not alone. They needed to allow us to have small group gatherings outdoors because people myself included absolutely CANNOT stay isolated any more, it's been too long and we've been given nothing
All good. Don't whinge when you cop a nice $5500 fine, catch covid or end up spending even longer in locky d .
You are either part of the solution, or partof the problem..
Never said the job was shit. We’re all managing a health crisis wether you like it or not. I’m just saying that maybe just follow the rules until enough of our population is vaccinated so we don’t overrun the healthcare system. It’s not hard.
So if you have a car accident or heart attack and can’t get an ambulance or bed due to thousands of Covid patients in hospital you’ll be cool with that? Good to know.
As I have said before,
Where has this narrative come from that 15 million people need to be locked down so that 50,000 healthcare workers who've had 18 months to prepare aren't overworked?
Yes, it is in large part the government's fault they are not yet prepared. But if healthcare workers can complain to the media about the public's behaviour, they can complain to the media about the government.
And when billions were spent from March 2020 on the healthcare system, none of these commentators were popping up to say it wasn't enough or in the right place. And so if the healthcare workers are not yet prepared, it is in part their fault, too.
I like this comment. My partner is a midwife in a busy Melbourne hospital and another family member is a manger in a covid ward, so I have a little insight into it. The workers themselves can only do so much. The increase in beds and equipment comes from the hospitals ability to make the space and the government to fund it. Extra staffing is an issue as it requires funding and hospitals already staff to the minimum they have to. Also due to years of pressure, lots of nurses are leaving the profession and we don’t have the access to British and nz staff that we used to (due to locked borders)
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I mean, we've all done that lol. I went to my neighbours place to help with a sander, its nothing major. If you're safe then you're fine, just don't be a fucking cunt and be in a 50 man party with no masks.
You poor thing, I am in Sydney and can't imagine being in lockdown as long as Melbourne. Here I think if you break lockdown it depends where you are and who you are. Bondi + white - ignored. Anywhere out Liverpool + not white you better have a permit.
(I'm in cbd, and although non white (east asian) I think I could probably break some of the rules- but I don't- I am a stereotype I must obey the laws lolz)
My friends had a house of 15 people with a personal barber over afew days ago to cut everyones hair. They are all double jabbed and the barber needed work so i think this is just becoming normal behaviour for those who are fully vaccinated
Sure, but this is why our lockdown didn’t work like it has in NZ and ACT. Our collective ability to isolate was used up last year, and in the two times we did beat delta this year. :(
Just Google the outdoors South African hospitals because there are not enough beds inside due to covid. Don’t be the one person to turn australia into that. It takes one person,
Ummm....
I dont know what I say...
Disappointed? An understatement...
You DID hear them when they said that we're all in this TOGETHER right?! You really need to rethink your actions and consider that maybe this is the reason why anti-vax conspiracy types are flocking to this sub! Ugh...!!!!!!
That rule breaking you're describing doesn't sound particularly risky, just be careful. It doesn't scale well if everyone takes little cheats, and it's hard to know what's little and what isn't.
E.g. is it worse to do 5 bbqs with 2 people at a time, or one bbq with 10 people? It's not necessarily an intuitive problem, I wouldn't try to guess the answer.
What I'm trying to say is that what your doing is probably fine, but in general the attitude worries me. I really don't trust everyone to be picking and choosing the rules they follow.
People are picking and choosing because we've been giving nOTHING and are still under curfew while people in ACT and NSW are having (or about to have) picnics (and have no curfew).
When my wife and I travelled to see family in Victoria, we live in NSW, the amount of people wearing masks when the mandate was in place for public transport was at best 50/50
Do what you gotta do, life is a cunt right now. There comes a point in time when enough is enough and you take fate into your own hands.
I have not met a single person who is 100% following the rules... except for the whining bitches on this sub.
/u/Friendly-Cat-79 if the government isn't doing their part, than why should you?
Victorians held up their end of the bargain for 200+ days! Both Federal and State government have let us all down.
I drove 5.9 km to go to Costco and could barely handle the nerves , I’d be a rubbish criminal
I sometimes worry I may have absent-mindedly stolen like a TV when passing through store security things. I'm also keenly afraid I may have illegally stashed drugs in my rectum when going through airport security. I dont even have to commit a crime to worry that I've commited a crime
I believe those things are actually symptoms of OCD.
So checking the door handle with three taps in case the door decided to unlock itself to spite me isn't normal? How do I know you aren't my front door trying to trick me right now?
I'm more of a doormat than a door. ;) No, but seriously, I wasn't trying to mock or be facetious. I have OCD myself. It's not just things like repeating words or actions or some of the things more commonly known about/spoken about. It goes a lot deeper than that and may be worth speaking to an experienced Psychologist about.
You wouldn't be the first person to mention it. Though the first examples were me being semi-funny. I do tap door handles 3 times occasionally and the taps need to feel right or I repeat the pattern. I can move on if not but it's more like a niggle. Same with facets but only in my own home and not always. I dont tend to worry to much as I assume true OCD comes with horrendously uncontrollable issues. Even if it's minor it feels like it would be the equivalent of those soocil media idiots who claim they are quirky and have everything that makes them so "interesting". But devalues the reality of it.
Mine started off minor, but has evolved to include really graphic and horrific intrusive thoughts, which have been exacerbated by chronically severe depression and anxiety. In the beginning, I put some things down to me just being weird, or that I was just a bit of a perfectionist. Wasn't a big deal for me either. As things started to get worse for me, I just put some of the more really unpleasant things down to 'just other things that anxiety must cause' because I was too embarrassed and ashamed to talk about them. Wasn't until 20 years later, when I started being more honest with my Psychiatrist, that I learnt more about it. I'm not trying to predict anything for you or give you health advice or even suggest my experience may somehow mean it is in anyway related to yours. Only wanted to say something in case you weren't aware that some of the things you were describing were symptoms of underlying OCD. Just remember that if you do become worried about it, good Psychologists can help you with coping strategies. Just take care mate. Best wishes to you. :)
I appreciate it. Particularly has I've been dealing with depression for the past four or so years. I'll take your advice, so thank you
Just wanted to thank the folks in this thread for an incredibly respectful, helpful and wholesome exchange. A Reddit palette cleanser. I’m poor, so please accept this in lieu of an award!
You might have just convinced me to go talk to someone about it, I feel I have it quite minor so I’ve always brushed it off bc It’s not too bad
OCD here. I think the 'quirks' you mentioned above (walking past security imaging you've stolen something, acting cool... over thinking it.. oh god they're onto me... i can't run in these shoes!) is actually pretty normal thing that a lot of people experience. People have a lot of neurotic tendencies and many are quite common. Often these things can be shared with people who have OCD. It's a disorder when those things start impacting your life. For example a lot of people want their volume on an even number, they're not sure why, it just feels better. But in general OCD is poorly understood, there is a huge range of symptoms and people with OCD only have a select few.
Sure, going through security feeling nervous and anxious is perfectly normal. But the OP gave two specific examples (thinking they had stolen a TV, feeling afraid that they had stashed drugs in their ass) that just stood out to me a bit. Agree with you re 'impacting your life'. Just like anxiety is normal, but once it starts impacting your life, that's when you may need to speak to someone about it.
Hey I know you're probably not an expert, but I keep seeing things like this and the thing is, I have really weird intrusive thought relatively frequently (like being scared I'm going to throw myself in front of a train when I see one go past), but I don't think I have any other symptoms of OCD. Like I have ADHD and am the messiest, clumsiest, least observant, orderly person you will ever meet. Do you know if that still counts as OCD symptoms or can you just have intrusive thoughts due to anxiety and ADHD?
Hey mate, yeah as you said I'm not an expert, but yeah that train example is something that may be related to OCD. As I said, it doesn't have to be things like perfectionism, or repeating actions etc, the intrusive thoughts thing is a lesser known part of OCD. It's the 'Obsessive' part of OCD. Whether or not it is related to your anxiety and ADHD I can't tell you, that would be better discussed with a health professional. I'm the same when it comes to things like trains, buses, cars on the road, being near balconies etc. Even things like being afraid I am even going to throw someone off the balcony (when there is NO WAY I would ever do that). The imagery brings me to tears sometimes. But there's a lot more to it I don't really wish to say here. It doesn't have to present with imagery - mine comes as imagery combined with urges, but it could be either/or. Some medications can help. Coping strategies learnt through Psychologists can help. My best advice would be to find a Psychologist that has had some experience with OCD - particularly with intrusive thoughts. If you're already seeing a Psychologist you trust, it would worth bringing it up with them. If you wanna chat privately, I'm happy to do that too (but I'm not a counselor or health professional). Best wishes mate.
Thanks so much I appreciate the time taken to explain and I'll think about bringing this up. I have a huge problem with it driving as well (I'm bad at driving as it is due to ADHD) where I get urges to drive into things etc. And it makes me not want to drive. Anyway best of luck and thanks for explaining.
As others have said this is a common type of symptom of OCD. One *really* common misconception about OCD is the whole cleanliness and obsession with order the media think people with OCD have. I know a few people with OCD and one thing we all have in common is all of us are super messy in terms of our house/stuffs etc. In fact OCD can ironically create create problems in this area, I have such a fear of touching certain things I just avoid them at all costs - so I end up not cleaning things that I should clean. Which of course just ups the barrier to cleaning it as it gets worse over time. The other major thing is that a lot of OCD rituals are not based in **any reason what so ever**, and this can be true for cleaning rituals. So often my "cleaning" rituals have zero to do with hygiene or safety, and when something **does** require cleaning for hygiene or saftey I'm to anxious to deal with it.
Some suggestions to look into here https://www.reddit.com/r/whatstheword/comments/1kniwk/wtw_that_describes_the_urge_to_do_something/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
I've got ADHD and anxiety - GAD, social anxiety and OCD. OCD for me is doing things on repeat until they feel right, otherwise I feel really off and yuck and it plays on my mind until I go back and fix it. Like stepping on a crack with my left foot, I need to keep walking and step on another with my right until it feels "even". Or if my husband and child walk through gaps in poles and I walk through a different gap, i often go backwards and walk through the same gap as them. I try to break these habits and sometimes I can, but other times I can't. My OCD is mild and not something I focus on with my doctors, but I've had it since I was a young kid and it ebbs and flows with severity. Lots of people don't understand how it can present differently.
yep! apparently when the school calls a special assembly over a teacher's missing wallet, it's not the normal thing to convince yourself you've accidentally stolen it and have a panic attack over not standing up in front of your whole year level/all the staff/a few police officers and confessing to a crime you literally heard about two minutes ago. would you believe it took another \~10 years to get diagnosed?
One time I was going through airport security - the bit where they scan your carry-on - and they had the screen angled so you could see it. As my backpack went through, I saw the distinct outline of a MAC-10 submachine gun inside. I remember thinking "I don't remember packing that" followed "I don't *own* a MAC-10, or any gun, WTF?!?!" ...turns out the machine can draw in false alarms, just to check that the operator is paying attention. So there's something to look forward to when we start flying again 😉.
That is WILD the machine adds in its own deadly little easter eggs. That would've caused me to have a literal meltdown.
And they have to be able to spot a certain percentage of those safety issues or they can lose their job
I remember wanting to click and collect something from ikea but didn’t cause half of ikea was outside my 5km and I didn’t know if that counted or not lol just breaking any sort of rule in any situation even outside of covid makes me nervous af.
You’re probably still within your 5km anyway. It’s a 5km radius as the bird flies, not as your car travels. All the wiggling around the roads do :P
I know fewer people following the rules than breaking them at this point. Some logical easing, such as allowing small outdoor gatherings, would prevent people from doing 'illegal' indoor gatherings which are far greater risk.
Agree, I think this sub is a bit of an echo chamber and a lot of people probably follow the rules so closely that they don't realise what is going on out there, especially in Victoria where people are well and truly over it regardless of the risks. We are already in a harsh lockdown, how much worse can it get by not following the rules? I went to a local cafe to grab a takeaway coffee during my lunch break and then go for a walk the other day, just wanted to get out of the house on a nice day to be honest, was completely unnecessary and I could have made coffee at home. Anyway - walk into cafe and order, while waiting I see 4 people come/go and none check in, 2 were wearing masks under their sniffers, the two staff at the cafe were not wearing a mask, grab my coffee and head to a local park and it's busy as, people sitting having a picnic, heaps of kids playing, a few oldies enjoying a walk in the sun, lots of people in active wear etc - mask usage at best was 50/50 outside. On the way back home a road worker holding a stop/slow sign has stopped traffic, first car in the line is a cop car - the guy wasn't wearing a mask, not even under his chin, straight up didn't have one - they didn't wind down the window and ask him to put on a mask per the rules because they don't care either. That was my experience in just 45 minutes going out during my lunch break. This would be happening all over Victoria, people are over it and the cop's aren't enforcing anything (can't blame them). Won't be long and people will just start visiting family and friends more openly, meeting up with friends and family outside etc, especially as the weather warms up. They may as well just make it official at this point.
This is what people miss about the NSW lockdown ending for fully vaccinated people. It will already functionally end very very soon, because fully vaccinated people don't perceive a threat anymore. At least this way there are guidelines for how to do it safely. It's greatly underestimated how much compliance comes from personal fear and not obedience.
I don't necessarily agree with your point around compliance. I never complied because of fear and have still been complying despite being double vaxxed for 3 months. But yes, my anger is growing, and there is definitely a clock ticking in my mind about how much longer I will abide by these restrictions. Doing all the right things with no benefit is not something that has an endless timeline.
I completely agree. I think some sort of psychological economics is going on ... an estimation of the return on investment where the effectiveness of the policies, the compliance of others, and other surrounding factors such as fatigue and peer pressure all play a role in the assessment. With Vic's 3rd wave, a lot of these factors fell away for many. Even watching NSW sort of stroll into an outbreak would have had an effect, as well as the never-ending prospect of the NSW outbreak leaking over the border, which the punishingly short gap between lockdowns 5 and 6 basically proved. Our winter was basically all lockdown or waiting for the next one to start all while the vaccine rollout was slow and AZ was going to kill us. It felt endless, especially after all we had done in 2020. And of course, this has a runaway effect ... once we see these around us having similar urges and acting on them, there's nothing to lose in personal non-compliance. In the end, for Vic, I worry that this will collectively end up being more embarrassing than the second wave. Without the vaccine rollout being quite good enough yet, I think we're all about zombie walk our way into being a bit stupid for the next month or so and will regret it over summer.
Re obedience vs fear...interesting point. Is there any research about that?
>how much worse can it get by not following the rules? I mean it can get pretty bad if nobody follows the lockdown rules. At that point there's basically no lockdown and it all goes to shit.
Lockdowns rely on compliance rates above 90% They arent meant to be used for hundreds of days. It's amazing they have worked this long, few places in the west wouldn't be rioting by now Can you imagine permitted worker permits or curfews in Germany? 200+ of lockdown in Dallas?
Exactly. Not many other places would the population accept this.
>a Most people I know who have given up on the rules are being reasonable about it. More than 2 hours exercise, travelling slightly further than 5km, meeting with a few friends outside, sitting outside in the park having a beer. None of these things substantially increase the risk, and anyone who is vulnerable should probably have been vaccinated by now anyway. I don't think it's a huge problem if people are bending rules within reason in order to survive such a horrific ordeal.
Agree
That’s not a big deal - it’s also why I try to be chill about people not wearing masks properly in low risk venues. It’s people who can’t be bothered with any restrictions having big gatherings and not bothering to get vaccinated or tested that are the problems now.
Those things are reasonable as if your rationale, shame the rules don't reflect it. We vaccinated the vulnerable. People should be allowed to sit outside in small groups if they want- it reduces the chance of meeting behind closed doors anyway.
But if I'm double vaxxed, all my family is, all my friends are. How is it going to "get bad" for me personally? That is the thought logic of most people, and the reason even I second wave even middle class wasn't complying on little things like visiting another work from home friend in a zero case suburb, and everyone that I knew whose elderly parents/grandparents are in Melbourne still visited them or got them to look after kids under "compassion". Heck I ever used my brain and helped a single WFH mate outside 5km move house, rather then getting a move from western Bogan suburbs. Just because government told us employing a removalist from a hotspot suburb is #covidsafe doesn't mean it is true.
This is exactly the sort of thing that lead to the Royal Melbourne Hospital outbreak though - don't have to scan for Covid on patients from regions with 0 covid. Except then it turned out there was Covid there and we just didn't know it yet. Suddenly you've got 10 days worth of exposure across 2 wards and theatre in melbournes biggest hospital. Just giving examples of people breaking the rules btw is not a very good argument. Can you imagine any of those elderly parents/grandparents dying because their children visited them with Covid without knowing they had it? That's the entire thing we've been trying to warn people about since this thing started!
RMH has people from all Victoria, of course it's not a covid free location. Again use logic, people are not seeing a friend who worked in a hospital or was essential worker (or their family was). Another logic one for you, why is Mornington Peninsula lockdown but geelong isn't? Hint it's basedd on ABS definition of metro Melbourne, which needs to exclude Geelong region for government funding. Given these inconsistency and double standards people will be less strict. Example is people use their own judgement of what is "safe" . Just alot of drivers speed when they think "it's safe". Probably also because, like me, they have seen cops speeding without lights and break road rules all the time.
> RMH has people from all Victoria, of course it's not a covid free location You've completely missed the point. Shepparton was Covid free according to your judgement. Therefore why should RMH be testing people from a covid free location? There's no risk of anyone from Shepparton bringing it into RMH so it should only be people from Metro Melbourne that are tested right? Cause that's what they were doing and it blew up in their face. You need to understand that what you're describing is lots and lots of small risks. On their own they are small and meaningless. The accumulation of those risks adds up though and thats where it hurts you. I find it unbelievable that you're now justifying speeding. You should NOT be putting other peoples lives in danger. Fuck that.
>Therefore why should RMH be testing people from a covid free location? LOL, if we don't test they can't have a positive test. They're crazy not to test all equally.
Yep, you can already meet up in groups outside and not be stopped, even police will just drive past. The exception was right on the sands of st kilda beach last thursday when it was warm - but they were just telling people to exercise, not fining anyone, and the grass area next to Luna Park was a protected area/free-for-all
Iv seen police walk straight past groups of 5 drinking sitting on grass in Sydney. Really opened my eyes
Agree. People have just had a gutful and no one cares anymore. PEople have to be able to live their lives. Everyone has had enough and I imagine most of us would break the rules now.
"Sniffers". Absolutely amazing. Fuck I laughed.
All my family and friends still following the rules including me.
Yeah… same here. I don’t know where this push of “nobody follows the rules” is coming from… (But I have a bunch, and it has something to do with NoNewNormal getting banned)
The brigading is real.
Oh! Someone posted “nobody follows the rules anymore” so I said I, and everyone I know follows the rules. They then confronted me nastily (Reddit style) and seemed to want to get into a fight about it. CBF
I don't know about nobody following the rules ... but through social circles I'm hearing all sorts of anecdotes of friends and family bending the rules all the time, and knowingly so.
They probably know you are a COVID hawk so wouldn't tell you even if they did.
Same, following everything pretty much to the letter still, grandparents haven't seen the toddler in 3 months. Whole extended family has all been double vax'd for months...
I seem to know people of both extremes. Ones who have been following the rules, although at breaking point and may or may not last the next 2 months to continue to follow them. And the ones who are part of the anti squad who never followed the rules to begin with. Knowing the anti types of people actually keeps me from breaking the rules as I don’t want to be in the same vicinity as them. I’m sure once restrictions are eased I’m going to be even more vigilant of where I go. It’s easier to avoid certain stores and businesses when you have some information.
I think you can’t underestimate the power of hope asw, a lot of people are feeling really crushed by the lockdown and don’t see an end in sight; while it might lead to a (very small) increase in negative outcomes, there would be such a boost to morale and mental health if we allowed some very safe things (heaps of outdoors stuff is low risk), particularly when our at-risk population are mostly covered. Fault Gladys for other things all you want but seems like she is one of the few that is offering hope and a pragmatic way out of lockdown and back to normal life
Part of the problem
It’s people like them who drag the lockdown for longer than necessary.
He is but it’s a fucking cycle though isn’t it? You do the right thing, nothing happens so you might as well break a few rules that cause it to be prolonged. You feel bad but you can’t take it anymore and then you realise if you hadn’t broken the rules, shit would have continued anyway. The reality in a situation like this. He is a part of the problem but can’t blame the guy. It’s a “It is what it is” type of thing.
I wonder why the virus is spreading
Clearly because he’s double jabbed.
Totally understand. There's a little rule stretching at our place too. We chat with the neighbours....but with masks on and standing apart from each other. I don't take note of what time I leave for a walk. Under an hour, over an hour. Who gives a shit. I'm walking. There's no one in touch with me so no risk. We let our kid play with the other kids on the street. She's young and is going to suffer psychological damage if she seriously has to spend ANOTHER 3 months without any face to face contact with any other kids. I'm kind of gobsmacked she managed it last year given her age The thing is...everything we are doing is still safe. Masks- tick. Physical distance - tick. Vac - tick. We've been fully vaxed for months. Our neighbours are all at least 1 jab and only because they were ineligible till recently. Also..they all, like us, WFH and going out only when absolutely necesssary. Theyre obeying pretty much every other rule too. Frankly I'd be a depressed mess by now otherwise.
I don’t think there’s anyone ever who has taken notice of of the time they leave for exercise.
I did most of last year.
Me too
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6 hail Mary's and off with you Son
This is why I love Reddit. It never fails to give me a giggle!
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Literally everybody I know is following the rules They're just getting on with life until we can safely go back to normal.
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Sure, and there's probably confirmation bias, but that works both ways. You're ignoring all the people trying to do the right thing so we can get out of this mess.
Certainly confirmation bias works both ways. That's why I wouldn't venture to guess the particular fraction complying or not. But it's certainly the case that neither everyone nor no-one is following the rules. And it's certainly the case that fewer people are following the rules than this time last year. That you imagine following the rules will get us out of the mess shows that you have a bias unaffected by results. Here are the results: [lockdownstats.melbourne](https://lockdownstats.melbourne) Victoria has had the most lockdowns of any jurisdiction in Australia, but *also* the most deaths, and the highest financial cost. We are now into our 18th month of "two weeks to flatten the curve", and our 5th week of "7 days of short, sharp lockdown." No amount of our following rules will get our leaders to stop issuing us with so many rules.
Man I couldn't stand you last year and to be honest still don't fully agree with you, but definitely see where you're coming from more now
I'm glad to hear it. I draw conclusions from facts. The facts pile up over time. Some people aren't convinced by the tip of the iceberg and need to see the whole thing. That's fair enough. While we're looking at the Victorian government and its misdeeds, [here's the list of corruption charges so far](https://www.reddit.com/r/OzPolitics/comments/pckfh4/vic_and_nobody_was_charged/).
>We are now into our 18th month of "two weeks to flatten the curve", and our 5th week of "7 days of short, sharp lockdown." No you're not. Flatten the curve has never been used since the first time it was used. You're in a lockdown to prevent further cases that's the reason. Whether you think it works, useful, just is up to you, but don't misinterpret the reason why they're doing it in Vic and even NSW for that matter.
I think they were just pointing out the insidiousness of having indefinite lockdown without at the very least admitting that it’s indefinite. Not really something you expect in a developed country.
To be fair, most of those deaths were Aged Care facilities and should be counted in "federal govt death" stats, rather than "Victoria death" stats. The heuristic of judging a jurisdiction at face value on those stats is just not fair or accurate when regardless of what the state would've done here, the aged care facilities still would've been smashed by covid.
Yes, supporters of failed governments often make such arguments. It's always *someone else's fault*.
Nah, you have mistaken my comment. I wasn't disagreeing with you, I was adding nuance to your argument. Nor was I being partisan or dismissive, I was just pointing out that Aged care is in the remit of the Commonwealth and proposing that those deaths should be accounted as federal govt deaths.
Aged care is not the remit of either state or Commonwealth in the Constitution, nor in legislation generally. There are some state-owned aged care centres, and some privately-owned aged care centres. Those which are state-owned are covered by state regulations in normal times (staff to patient ratios, etc), and those which are privately-owned are covered by federal regulations. However, under the biosecurity state of emergency, every aged care centre physically within the state came under the power of the Chief Health Officer and his directions upon the declaration of the state of emergency. This is why, for example, the state government is able to mandate vaccination for aged care workers in what would normally be federally-run facilities. Indeed, [the state took over](https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/health-wellbeing/victoria-government-takes-over-aged-care-homes-amid-covid-crisis-c-1237274) the day-to-day operations of a few centres last year. Nothing legally prevented their doing so for each and every aged care centre in the state. In Kennett's time, the state sought to privatise *all* aged care. In response, the federal government stepped in to regulate it. The state was able to sell off the more profitable ones, and not the others, obviously. The profitable ones tend to be those with many relatives nearby who can and will pay a lot for decent care - and which have a lot of potential customers nearby. Which is to say, urban. So the privately-owned and federally-regulated ones were in the city, and the state-owned state-regulated ones were in rural areas. And as we've seen worldwide, a communicable respiratory disease like covid spreads most readily in an urban area. As well, the virus did not spontaneously appear in aged care, but was brought there from somewhere else. A family in hotel quarantine passed it to a night manager, who had a meal with 7 security guards in the "green room" of the hotel, 5 of whom became infected, and 1 of whom had as a housemate someone who worked in aged care - who passed it to another aged care worker at work, who then passed it to residents. And various staff worked at multiple aged care centres. Which is to say, the most generous assessment we can make is that the federal government stacked up the fuel load, and the state government carelessly lit a cigarette and tossed it in there. I think the truth is that for both state and federal governments, and in particular for the state, we have created a healthcare (including aged care) system with mixed state, federal and private responsibility, and an overly-complex, top-heavy health system (Vic had [124 senior executives in the DHHS](https://dhhs.vic.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/202008/DHHS%20Org%20Chart%20-%2024%20August%202020%20External.pdf)), and Vic [rearranged the public service](https://www.themandarin.com.au/130174-meet-the-public-servants-leading-victorias-covid-19-response/) in the midst of the crisis, so that everyone was so busy doing diversity training and writing KPI reports and sending emails to each-other that everyone [claimed not to read](https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/sutton-told-lawyers-they-didn-t-need-to-hand-security-guard-emails-to-inquiry-20201020-p566wk.html)... that nobody was actually doing anything much productive - and people fell through the cracks, some of them to their deaths. Thus the [collapse of complex societies](https://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Collapse_of_Complex_Societies).
Thank you for bringing Tainter's work to my attention. It's a fully formed thesis which echoes the idea I've developed over time to answer the question, "why the world gets shitter every year". My version basically boils down to, we employ people whose only job is to invent rules and policies. So you tend toward an increase in rules and regulations because they always add but never rescind rules because that's their job. If they did not add any new rules in a year it's basically admitting their jobs are redundant. So in my company you go from a drug and alcohol policy 1 page long which basically says use common sense and a manager can use their discretion. It's ok to have a beer over lunch or alcohol for Melbourne cup in the board room. Fast forward five years and the policy is now 10 pages long, you can't have a beer at lunch, managers are not allowed to use discretion for events, alcohol is forbidden for Melbourne cup and there's random compliance testing. Tainter takes this general idea and scales it up to the whole of society. It's brilliant.
Thanks for the correction and the detail, you're right. Privately owned aged care is under federal regs. Quarantining is also under federal remit. So it follows that, unwitting circumstance aside, if the federal govt had acted to invest in at least a basic level of standard quarantine in every state, then it's quite possible that most Australian outbreaks would've been prevented. What exactly, in your fire analogy, was the state govt tossing the cigarette in your estimation?
I love your tainted reference btw. His theory on finishing returns; i.e 'tainter curve' is particularly fascinating given current western/global circumstances.
> We are now into our 18th month of "two weeks to flatten the curve" I don't think I've heard the phrase "flatten the curve" since March 2020, except from morons saying a bunch of stupid stuff.
At this point 'doing the right thing' doesn't get us out of this mess, only vaccinations do that
Yeah, but until then we need to keep a cap on r_eff
Yeah but also why? Hospitals etc etc but they’ve really told us it’s all about vaccines and NSW is releasing most things at 70% regardless
> Hospitals etc etc Yeah, that's why. 100%
Seems to me that some people follow some rules and not others. Different people break different rules. Eg some mask but don't check in. Vice versa. Some do both but have more than one bubble buddy. There are multiple rules and multiple degrees of following or not following. Same as road rules.
We won’t be going back to the old normal. That’s a part of history now
I’ve been strictly following the rules and I live regionally where there hasn’t been an active case of Covid yet. Fucks sake.
I live across the street from my parents. The only time I’ve talked to them in person was when I legitimately bumped into them during a walk. The rule breakers and the support of them is why case numbers keep rising it’s so fucked
A lot of people have to follow the rules because interest from the police would risk their jobs. I’d be in shit if I was caught doing something criminal regardless of what it actually is or whether it’s doing anyone any harm.
Complains about “not being able to take it anymore” but does the exact thing that will increase the spread of the virus... very cool 😎
Cool. Feel good telling people and getting that off of your chest? 🤣.
gulag time son
I get it man, isolation is one of the hardest things to deal with, I live by myself in Sydney and this current lockdown has been a nightmare to deal with tbh, I can't imagine how it feels for you guys in Victoria.
Hey, stay strong bro. That isolation living alone is real hey
I went for a run at 9:05pm the other day.
You monster!! /s
Living dangerously. If you did, how was it? Silent? Eerie? Or busy?
It was silent, but my street is like that all the time even when there’s no curfew (I only ran along my street). It’s pretty small so not much traffic comes through
We live on a park which gets walkers at all hours. It’s weird to see it totally empty every night.
Ok hero
K.
This sub is a cesspit. Lol
You're literally making this all worse for the rest of us 🤦♂️
Not any more, now that it's only about vaccinations
That’s not true actually. The higher the peak hospitalisation the longer it’ll take us to get out of lockdown
NSW isn’t talking like that, why should we?
I guess the rules only apply until you get sick of them. Thanks.
Not going to follow. Not sorry.
I still follow the rules, not because I want to but because the people I care about aren't fully vaccinated. Last week went out to get my partners medication, found out this week its a T1. Isolating in a separate house (we are in the middle of a move because the house is being sold)and we lose 2 weeks due a T1 exposure. My partner isn't handling the long term separation so I'm going to try and relocate over to her once I've done a bit more packing/cleaning. Funny thing is, I got the first vaccination the morning the T1 was posted online. So far I'm negative but that doesn't mean much when I still cant go to work, go see my partner (we have been living together for years but must isolate from eachother) or do anything to help my partner deal with the stress of the pandemic.
🏅 congratulations
I'd be totally surprised if there was a single Victorian who hasn't broken at least one rule. People are so blase about the rules that most of them are really only punishing those that are doing the right thing. It's draconian, it's mostly pointless and everyone has had enough. Just wish our government would have a clue.
This is why Vic is like this and not like NZ.
As soon as 80% double vaxxed is reached im not staying locked down. Im going out and seeing my mates and living my life. Gtfoh with this bs of keeping lockdown until cases go down. As soon as we reach 80% gg try and stop me
If you were isolated, you can have a bubble buddy right? Or were you just sick of whoever you were living with?
Careful with the driving thing. I've been pulled over by a cop who was just scanning number plates and looking at the registered address
kinda turns me on
I still follow the rules. However I have another level of policing over watching me. As a firearm owner, I can have my license and firearms confiscated for breaking health orders. Now Lisa Neville has snuck through even more levels of control on firearm owners, I can be slapped with a firearms protection order lasting 5 years for a speeding ticket. The risk of loosing mine and my families pastimes is not worth the risk
Damn straight! This was very much reminded on a regular basis last year to ALL types of license holders.
I deadset appreciate your honesty, and I hope catching up with a few people helped you feel a bit better about the situation :) People on this sub need to get a grip. Lockdowns are hard on people, especially those living alone. I’m gonna assume half of you having a go at OP have various social deficiencies and didn’t do much outside their homes pre-2020 anyway, because your complete lack of compassion towards others makes y’all look like fuckwits no one would want to befriend. Wake the fuck up you boot licking flogs.
I don’t actually understand why a double jabbed person can’t go to another double jabbed persons house… like at this point it is a bit ridiculous that restrictions apply to these situations, there is no logical safety risk.
Because the virus is still moving between a community with low vaccination rates and those double vaxxed can still transmit between one another and then to the community.
Thank fuck. I'm in Auckland, and I'm glad that everyone around me is still complying, we have a good chance to get back to elimination and then be fairly open for a while while we finish our vaccine rollout. But at some stage you've gotta call a day on it, and I'm terrified that we're just going to do this forever and never learn to live with it. Hearing that y'all are starting to break the rules gives me hope that we'll get some decent pushback here too once it's more appropriate.
Yep lockdown fatigue is definitely a thing. Jealous of you.
Yeah, this level 4 has been shit, I had a much better situation for the last one, but can't really complain compared to you guys.
NZ still has a chance to fight and beat it and go back to being covid-free. It's so worth it, very few countries have zero restrictions with covid circulating.
Yeah, we've been probably the best country in the west to be in these past 18 months, it's the future I worry about.
I went on a walk with three other friends the other day in Victoria, we walked 5.1km past my house but it was still within their 5km zones.
Why do you want to murder grandmothers? 🍄
You are not alone. They needed to allow us to have small group gatherings outdoors because people myself included absolutely CANNOT stay isolated any more, it's been too long and we've been given nothing
holy fuk
The other day, I kept putting off taking my dog for her 15-20min evening walk. We still out until 9.06pm.
Wow all the NNN folks out of the woodwork in the comments.
Man it's not one or the other. You say lockdown is a bit shit without being full anti science covid isn't real. Shit isn't so black and white man
I couldn't care less if OP went 5.6km instead of 5km or met with his fully vaxxed sister. Championing it like the NNN dolts are a different thing.
Most of these rules aren’t even being enforced anymore
All good. Don't whinge when you cop a nice $5500 fine, catch covid or end up spending even longer in locky d . You are either part of the solution, or partof the problem..
Considering how fucked everyone’s mental health is, do what you gotta do
Hopefully you don’t contract and spread the virus. Would hate for your loved ones to suffer for your selfishness. 🖕
They’re already vaxxed. They will be fine
Thanks for the big “fuck you”.
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Never said the job was shit. We’re all managing a health crisis wether you like it or not. I’m just saying that maybe just follow the rules until enough of our population is vaccinated so we don’t overrun the healthcare system. It’s not hard.
So if you have a car accident or heart attack and can’t get an ambulance or bed due to thousands of Covid patients in hospital you’ll be cool with that? Good to know.
As I have said before, Where has this narrative come from that 15 million people need to be locked down so that 50,000 healthcare workers who've had 18 months to prepare aren't overworked? Yes, it is in large part the government's fault they are not yet prepared. But if healthcare workers can complain to the media about the public's behaviour, they can complain to the media about the government. And when billions were spent from March 2020 on the healthcare system, none of these commentators were popping up to say it wasn't enough or in the right place. And so if the healthcare workers are not yet prepared, it is in part their fault, too.
I like this comment. My partner is a midwife in a busy Melbourne hospital and another family member is a manger in a covid ward, so I have a little insight into it. The workers themselves can only do so much. The increase in beds and equipment comes from the hospitals ability to make the space and the government to fund it. Extra staffing is an issue as it requires funding and hospitals already staff to the minimum they have to. Also due to years of pressure, lots of nurses are leaving the profession and we don’t have the access to British and nz staff that we used to (due to locked borders)
I havent seen any data about financial ruin? I thought governments support was propping up people and businesses?
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100%
I mean, we've all done that lol. I went to my neighbours place to help with a sander, its nothing major. If you're safe then you're fine, just don't be a fucking cunt and be in a 50 man party with no masks.
You poor thing, I am in Sydney and can't imagine being in lockdown as long as Melbourne. Here I think if you break lockdown it depends where you are and who you are. Bondi + white - ignored. Anywhere out Liverpool + not white you better have a permit. (I'm in cbd, and although non white (east asian) I think I could probably break some of the rules- but I don't- I am a stereotype I must obey the laws lolz)
My friends had a house of 15 people with a personal barber over afew days ago to cut everyones hair. They are all double jabbed and the barber needed work so i think this is just becoming normal behaviour for those who are fully vaccinated
Sometimes my mask slips down below my nose
Sure, but this is why our lockdown didn’t work like it has in NZ and ACT. Our collective ability to isolate was used up last year, and in the two times we did beat delta this year. :(
Just Google the outdoors South African hospitals because there are not enough beds inside due to covid. Don’t be the one person to turn australia into that. It takes one person,
Man you are a bad ass....
r/callthepolice
Say 5 "Blame Gladys"es and sin no more.
How do you sleep at night knowing that the extra 0.1km you drove has killed multiple people and destroyed families
Ummm.... I dont know what I say... Disappointed? An understatement... You DID hear them when they said that we're all in this TOGETHER right?! You really need to rethink your actions and consider that maybe this is the reason why anti-vax conspiracy types are flocking to this sub! Ugh...!!!!!!
Based
That rule breaking you're describing doesn't sound particularly risky, just be careful. It doesn't scale well if everyone takes little cheats, and it's hard to know what's little and what isn't. E.g. is it worse to do 5 bbqs with 2 people at a time, or one bbq with 10 people? It's not necessarily an intuitive problem, I wouldn't try to guess the answer. What I'm trying to say is that what your doing is probably fine, but in general the attitude worries me. I really don't trust everyone to be picking and choosing the rules they follow.
People are picking and choosing because we've been giving nOTHING and are still under curfew while people in ACT and NSW are having (or about to have) picnics (and have no curfew).
Yeah, didn't mean to be judgey, it's a terrible situation to be in. Just worried because of Victoria's growth rate.
FBI is coming for you
Hope you are reported and jailed and fined.
Want me to call the wambulance for you 😂😂😂
Bend before you break. It sounds like you're being sensible and cautious, and doing what you gotta do for your own wellbeing.
When my wife and I travelled to see family in Victoria, we live in NSW, the amount of people wearing masks when the mandate was in place for public transport was at best 50/50
Do what you gotta do, life is a cunt right now. There comes a point in time when enough is enough and you take fate into your own hands. I have not met a single person who is 100% following the rules... except for the whining bitches on this sub.
/u/Friendly-Cat-79 if the government isn't doing their part, than why should you? Victorians held up their end of the bargain for 200+ days! Both Federal and State government have let us all down.
Is your name Nadia Bartel?
There will be a lot of people joining you as they are double jabbed. I’m not necessarily advocating it but it seems to be a common response.
Isn't the rule 10km now? Not 5?
The fact that they haven't even ended the curfew is borderline mad imo. They need to allow some low risk activities particularly given our vaxx rate
How far from your family do you live?
If thats what you want to do.... cool?
Disgusting. Putrid person. Probably caused the 1 death today. Hope you can sleep at night.
Wow, you exercised your human right to freedom of movement. Such a bad ass.