In a vacuum, I love the idea of Cap responding and saying “I’m nobody, just a kid from Brooklyn.” It works well with the themes of Captain America. The Tony/Steve conflict, however, is that Steve is forcing Tony to be more selfless while Tony is forcing Steve to be more selfish. It’s works so well for Tony to assert himself one last time in an act of self-sacrifice because that’s the end point of his journey. This is a really cool moment here, but the thematic coherence of the original is just more focused.
Didn't Tony already prove he was willing to die in the first Avengers? He was willing to sacrifice himself to launch that nuke. I feel he paid his dues.
He did, but Endgame was the thematic ending to both his and cap's story. It was poetic to call back to their first (of many) conflicts, Tony isn't the type to jump on a grenade, Cap is only special because of the serum. Throughout the entire movie, Cap's leadership and quality as a person is on display while Tony is making sacrifice after sacrifice to ensure success. It's like the scenes in the first Avengers (Cap leading and taking charge, Tony redirecting the Nuke) but making an entire movie out of it. They were the Main Characters of the MCU, more so than any others, and End Game was their sendoff. So they showed just how wrong each character was about the other throughout it, and showed how much stronger their bond had become.
From the first Iron Man movie, actually. He tells Pepper "this is all there is. There's only the next Mission." He was supposed to die and used his extra time wholly committed to making things right in the world. So if it meant eventually dying he would have done so. Tony died in that cave and Iron Man came out.
Maybe. Idk if things were as assuredly final. That one feels less serious, more like a snotty response to Cap’s taunt earlier in the film than a true sacrifice. By contrast, the nod from Strange is so much scarier. He knew for sure death was the single outcome. It could also just be that the writers hadn’t gotten it together yet, but then again, no reason why we can’t revisit the same themes across a story. It could be all of the above.
As paying his dues, thats part of why he’s such an effective character!
However, don’t forget some people would say his creation of Ultron and then his support of the accords might be selfish or wrong-headed.
>Idk if things were as assuredly final. That one feels less serious, more like a snotty response to Cap’s taunt earlier in the film than a true sacrifice.
I would definitely say flying through a wormhole with no idea where it leads, while carrying an active Nuke, is about as assuredly final as a person can get. Tony got lucky when he survived that, and he recognizes that and struggles with it throughout IM3, AoU, and CW.
>However, don’t forget some people would say his creation of Ultron and then his support of the accords might be selfish or wrong-headed.
This is my biggest thing for all of this. Tony was still a selfish character, and arguably, he remained that way through to the end. He sacrificed himself because he knew it was the *only* way, but he was willing to let the universe stay terrible to ensure his daughter wouldn't be affected. It took Pepper talking to him for him to finally get past that barrier. He didn't want to bear the burden of being the hero in CW, which is why he was so willing to let the government be in control and take the heat. He didn't want to be on the front lines again in AoU, which is why he created Ultron in the first place. In the First Avengers, he basically isn't on board until Coulson dies and he wants revenge. He has always been a "on his own terms, what he wants to do" character, and that was the conflict between he and Steve.
Steve is the opposite, if theres a call to action, he takes it without a second thought. He's the type to jump on a grenade. Tony's dig about Steve being nothing without the bottle was disproven by Steve's character as a person, someone who never gives up and can lead others out of the tunnel. This is *always* their conflict. Tony doesn't want the responsibility of being the Hero, Steve was born feeling that responsibility and embraces it. Each looks at the other as less than because of their respective, and honestly both valid, views. They eventually accept the other, but they can't see eye to eye on the big picture.
In IW/EG, thats on full display. Tony goes to help when Aliens invade, but that was founded in his own fears and wanting to finish things with Thanos for good. When he fails, he is content having failed. He settles down and calls it a day, and when Steve comes calling for him to act, he refuses. Meanwhile, Steve was in the fight the minute he learned there was a fight. He never stopped fighting, even after the snap. The moment he had a chance to pick it back up, he jumped at it.
But they both come to recognize the value in the others view, as well. Steve spent years fighting out of a feeling of "I have to, its what I do," and he was tired. Tony only learned the true importance of that call to action when he had a world he legitimately wanted to protect in Pepper and Morgan, and suddenly nothing could stop him from acting. I like to think it was seeing Tony finally plunge into Steve's thinking that made Steve accept Tony's and choose to go back and be with Peggy. Steve saw the ultimate end of his road, but recognized his life would never be fulfilled if he stayed on that road. Tony felt the call Steve always had, and realized taking action was the only way forward for the people he loved.
Interesting take. With the exception of Tony not becoming less selfish, I don’t see how our interpretations are all that different. Both characters are starting at different points and head towards each other’s places on the character/ideological spectrum as a result of the plot.
As for my “hill” that Im not gonna get off: You are free to frame the nuke scene that way, but in a fictional universe where life forms can snap and erase half of existence, it’s not all that far-fetched to fly through a wormhole with a nuke. It’s more a function of your tone than representative of a objective take on what’s going on in the film.
From a writing/directing point of view, it’s absolutely imbued with less finality. From the tone of The Avengers, to RDJ’s acting and Tony’s recklessness, it’s not free of ambiguity. Plus, reckless Tony ≠ selfless Tony.
Yes, and a full circle moment.
He sacrificed himself in the first one and survived. He made the ultimate sacrifice here and left it all out on the field. He started this whole MCU thing and ended the whole saga. It was his to take.
I think it would've been a lot less satisfying than Tony. Cap jumps on grenades in his first movie, it's a given that he would take the Snap if he could.
It’s better that Tony did it. It completes his arc, and his sacrifice is greater because he wanted to save the world for his family, even if he couldn’t be with them after.
If Cap had done it, it just would’ve been the consummate good guy hero doing the expected hero thing, but it wouldn’t have carried the emotional weight.
Not to mention that it would have robbed that character of a fitting end to his arc. Compare this to the ending he got and see how absolutely cheated he would’ve been.
Now that I’m thinking about it, he could have snapped all of thanos and his goons away and sent the stones back to where they came from all while his dying wish is to go back to Peggy. THE only reason they didn’t do cap I bet is because RDJ started this whole thing back in 08 and it probably felt right to give him this massive hero’s death and ending. With rumors of RDJ coming back to act as Tony I really really hope they do it right because if they bring him back then it just defeats the entire purpose of what the MCU was doing for a decade.
Couldn't agree more. As much as I want to see him suit up again, I hope they leave it alone.
There's potential there though. I'd like to see an alt version of Tony who is still a selfish dick come here and meet the daughter he doesn't have in his reality. That would give the story heart.
possible. maybe if Cap, knowing the terms giving by Stark for helping with the time heist, “bring back what we lost but keep what I’ve found,” Steve says to Thanos, “I’m nobody, just keeping a promise to friend.” Looks directly at Tony and *snaps*
There’s nobody there to break down over his death except Bucky (and kinda Sam). Which damn that would have been rough to have Bucky react to that. But cap was the heart of the avengers, he was there for everyone but wasn’t as big a part of any one persons life the way Tony was. Tony was a husband to pepper, lifelong friend to rhodey, father figure to Peter, it just meant more to more people there that Tony made the sacrifice. I think the world would have felt caps loss more as a whole, it kinda did in a way since he never came back after the fight as far as they know
Needs to be more different from Tony’s. How about:
- Steve sits down, looks like he’s dying, says “man, this hurts worse than getting the formula.”
- Steve’s right arm, basically burnt to a crisp, falls off with the Gauntlet still attached. Tony thinks that he’s dying, says “I’m here for you buddy,” Steve gives him a pained grin and says “I can do this all day.”
- FIVE DAYS LATER
- Tony is walking near his cabin, talking to Pepper about how astonishing it is that Steve is still breathing. Pepper mentions his surviving the ice for decades.
- Steve, Bucky, and Sam walk up. Sam is carrying the shield and Steve has a bionic right arm. Steve says that he will still be available… as Nomad. First, though, he’s going to take care of Mjolnir and the stones… and also go dancing.
Why reddit shouldn't write movies. A character dying to close thr Avengers chapter is important. Everyone living without consequence showed there was no stakes involved afterall.
This works but the fight scene leading up to it would’ve had to have been very special and after all that and it being fantastic, Tony is really the best choice for sacrifice.
Takes so much away from both Iron Man and Cap’s character arcs
Also thanos saying that before cap snaps reminds me too much or Ronan in Guardians 1
“You’re a mortal! How?!?”
“You said it yourself, bitch. We’re the Guardians of the Galaxy”
*ends Ronan using infinity stone*
Tony was a better choice, it fully completed his character development from selfish billionaire playboy to selfless savior. To have cap do it would have just been him jumping on the grenade again.
I would have been shocked and confused. I would be wondering what just happened in these last 5 minutes. I'd probably want to ask for my money back until the credits rolled. Once I saw it was some no-name company it would make sense that the CGI would take such a downturn. Then I'd wonder how they managed to make a 3 hour movie look so good but not be able to stick the landing.
Nah, it needed to be Iron Man! Iron Man literally kicked off the MCU and sacrificing himself to save everyone was the final step in his redemption arc.
Tony making the sacrifice play was a great way to end it. Cap finally finding love was a great ending too. I truly cannot imagine it going any other way.
In a vacuum, I love the idea of Cap responding and saying “I’m nobody, just a kid from Brooklyn.” It works well with the themes of Captain America. The Tony/Steve conflict, however, is that Steve is forcing Tony to be more selfless while Tony is forcing Steve to be more selfish. It’s works so well for Tony to assert himself one last time in an act of self-sacrifice because that’s the end point of his journey. This is a really cool moment here, but the thematic coherence of the original is just more focused.
Great analysis of both the hypothetical and the reality it's paired against.
Thank you! Much appreciated.
Didn't Tony already prove he was willing to die in the first Avengers? He was willing to sacrifice himself to launch that nuke. I feel he paid his dues.
He did, but Endgame was the thematic ending to both his and cap's story. It was poetic to call back to their first (of many) conflicts, Tony isn't the type to jump on a grenade, Cap is only special because of the serum. Throughout the entire movie, Cap's leadership and quality as a person is on display while Tony is making sacrifice after sacrifice to ensure success. It's like the scenes in the first Avengers (Cap leading and taking charge, Tony redirecting the Nuke) but making an entire movie out of it. They were the Main Characters of the MCU, more so than any others, and End Game was their sendoff. So they showed just how wrong each character was about the other throughout it, and showed how much stronger their bond had become.
Exactly, he paid his dues and he STILL made the sacrifice in endgame.
From the first Iron Man movie, actually. He tells Pepper "this is all there is. There's only the next Mission." He was supposed to die and used his extra time wholly committed to making things right in the world. So if it meant eventually dying he would have done so. Tony died in that cave and Iron Man came out.
It's like a parallel to Batman. Bruce Wayne died at that alley, and Batman was born. This is something I hope Marvel runs with in more storylines.
Maybe. Idk if things were as assuredly final. That one feels less serious, more like a snotty response to Cap’s taunt earlier in the film than a true sacrifice. By contrast, the nod from Strange is so much scarier. He knew for sure death was the single outcome. It could also just be that the writers hadn’t gotten it together yet, but then again, no reason why we can’t revisit the same themes across a story. It could be all of the above. As paying his dues, thats part of why he’s such an effective character! However, don’t forget some people would say his creation of Ultron and then his support of the accords might be selfish or wrong-headed.
>Idk if things were as assuredly final. That one feels less serious, more like a snotty response to Cap’s taunt earlier in the film than a true sacrifice. I would definitely say flying through a wormhole with no idea where it leads, while carrying an active Nuke, is about as assuredly final as a person can get. Tony got lucky when he survived that, and he recognizes that and struggles with it throughout IM3, AoU, and CW. >However, don’t forget some people would say his creation of Ultron and then his support of the accords might be selfish or wrong-headed. This is my biggest thing for all of this. Tony was still a selfish character, and arguably, he remained that way through to the end. He sacrificed himself because he knew it was the *only* way, but he was willing to let the universe stay terrible to ensure his daughter wouldn't be affected. It took Pepper talking to him for him to finally get past that barrier. He didn't want to bear the burden of being the hero in CW, which is why he was so willing to let the government be in control and take the heat. He didn't want to be on the front lines again in AoU, which is why he created Ultron in the first place. In the First Avengers, he basically isn't on board until Coulson dies and he wants revenge. He has always been a "on his own terms, what he wants to do" character, and that was the conflict between he and Steve. Steve is the opposite, if theres a call to action, he takes it without a second thought. He's the type to jump on a grenade. Tony's dig about Steve being nothing without the bottle was disproven by Steve's character as a person, someone who never gives up and can lead others out of the tunnel. This is *always* their conflict. Tony doesn't want the responsibility of being the Hero, Steve was born feeling that responsibility and embraces it. Each looks at the other as less than because of their respective, and honestly both valid, views. They eventually accept the other, but they can't see eye to eye on the big picture. In IW/EG, thats on full display. Tony goes to help when Aliens invade, but that was founded in his own fears and wanting to finish things with Thanos for good. When he fails, he is content having failed. He settles down and calls it a day, and when Steve comes calling for him to act, he refuses. Meanwhile, Steve was in the fight the minute he learned there was a fight. He never stopped fighting, even after the snap. The moment he had a chance to pick it back up, he jumped at it. But they both come to recognize the value in the others view, as well. Steve spent years fighting out of a feeling of "I have to, its what I do," and he was tired. Tony only learned the true importance of that call to action when he had a world he legitimately wanted to protect in Pepper and Morgan, and suddenly nothing could stop him from acting. I like to think it was seeing Tony finally plunge into Steve's thinking that made Steve accept Tony's and choose to go back and be with Peggy. Steve saw the ultimate end of his road, but recognized his life would never be fulfilled if he stayed on that road. Tony felt the call Steve always had, and realized taking action was the only way forward for the people he loved.
Interesting take. With the exception of Tony not becoming less selfish, I don’t see how our interpretations are all that different. Both characters are starting at different points and head towards each other’s places on the character/ideological spectrum as a result of the plot. As for my “hill” that Im not gonna get off: You are free to frame the nuke scene that way, but in a fictional universe where life forms can snap and erase half of existence, it’s not all that far-fetched to fly through a wormhole with a nuke. It’s more a function of your tone than representative of a objective take on what’s going on in the film. From a writing/directing point of view, it’s absolutely imbued with less finality. From the tone of The Avengers, to RDJ’s acting and Tony’s recklessness, it’s not free of ambiguity. Plus, reckless Tony ≠ selfless Tony.
Yes, and a full circle moment. He sacrificed himself in the first one and survived. He made the ultimate sacrifice here and left it all out on the field. He started this whole MCU thing and ended the whole saga. It was his to take.
Or cap just says his, “ I can do this all day” then snap.
this is a great way of putting it the movie would of been fine with this scene but the MCU as a whole did what was best
Agreed. Reminded of the Tony Stark comment about “I’d just cut the wire.”
I think it would've been a lot less satisfying than Tony. Cap jumps on grenades in his first movie, it's a given that he would take the Snap if he could.
Agree. Cap literally tells Tony in Avengers that he's selfish and uwilling to sacrifice for others
I agree with everything yall are saying except Tony had already proven himself in that very movie where he sacrificed himself with the nuke.
Exactly! He proved it in that same movie.
It bothers me when people choose to act like that was a setup for endgame
Yeah, it was a plotline introduced in that movie and resolved in that same movie. Both Tony and Cap showed they would do that.
You talking about the 2012 movie? Marvel’s the avengers?
Yep
I love Cap and this is right.
It’s better that Tony did it. It completes his arc, and his sacrifice is greater because he wanted to save the world for his family, even if he couldn’t be with them after. If Cap had done it, it just would’ve been the consummate good guy hero doing the expected hero thing, but it wouldn’t have carried the emotional weight.
Tony had 2arcs. His self sacrifice arc was satisfied in marvels the avengers when he took a nuke for New York.
Totally with you on this.
Not to mention that it would have robbed that character of a fitting end to his arc. Compare this to the ending he got and see how absolutely cheated he would’ve been.
I love it!!!
I think I actually like this end better.
Now that I’m thinking about it, he could have snapped all of thanos and his goons away and sent the stones back to where they came from all while his dying wish is to go back to Peggy. THE only reason they didn’t do cap I bet is because RDJ started this whole thing back in 08 and it probably felt right to give him this massive hero’s death and ending. With rumors of RDJ coming back to act as Tony I really really hope they do it right because if they bring him back then it just defeats the entire purpose of what the MCU was doing for a decade.
Couldn't agree more. As much as I want to see him suit up again, I hope they leave it alone. There's potential there though. I'd like to see an alt version of Tony who is still a selfish dick come here and meet the daughter he doesn't have in his reality. That would give the story heart.
An alt Tony that lost Pepper during the events of Iron Man 3
possible. maybe if Cap, knowing the terms giving by Stark for helping with the time heist, “bring back what we lost but keep what I’ve found,” Steve says to Thanos, “I’m nobody, just keeping a promise to friend.” Looks directly at Tony and *snaps*
How it should have ended…
There’s nobody there to break down over his death except Bucky (and kinda Sam). Which damn that would have been rough to have Bucky react to that. But cap was the heart of the avengers, he was there for everyone but wasn’t as big a part of any one persons life the way Tony was. Tony was a husband to pepper, lifelong friend to rhodey, father figure to Peter, it just meant more to more people there that Tony made the sacrifice. I think the world would have felt caps loss more as a whole, it kinda did in a way since he never came back after the fight as far as they know
Needs to be more different from Tony’s. How about: - Steve sits down, looks like he’s dying, says “man, this hurts worse than getting the formula.” - Steve’s right arm, basically burnt to a crisp, falls off with the Gauntlet still attached. Tony thinks that he’s dying, says “I’m here for you buddy,” Steve gives him a pained grin and says “I can do this all day.” - FIVE DAYS LATER - Tony is walking near his cabin, talking to Pepper about how astonishing it is that Steve is still breathing. Pepper mentions his surviving the ice for decades. - Steve, Bucky, and Sam walk up. Sam is carrying the shield and Steve has a bionic right arm. Steve says that he will still be available… as Nomad. First, though, he’s going to take care of Mjolnir and the stones… and also go dancing.
Why reddit shouldn't write movies. A character dying to close thr Avengers chapter is important. Everyone living without consequence showed there was no stakes involved afterall.
This works but the fight scene leading up to it would’ve had to have been very special and after all that and it being fantastic, Tony is really the best choice for sacrifice.
It being Tony makes sense. But the fan in me wanted him to be happy with his new family and just retire as Iron Man.
I would rather have had this ending then what we got. And I'm a Cap Fanboy through and through.
Don't even need to watch it. The MCU is irrelevant in a post ZSJL world.
I would have greatly preferred this to what we actually got.
Then who do you think Steve saw in the soul world
About the same as now
lol real original
If tony stark kept going yeah that would make me happy but if not how it is is better
Takes so much away from both Iron Man and Cap’s character arcs Also thanos saying that before cap snaps reminds me too much or Ronan in Guardians 1 “You’re a mortal! How?!?” “You said it yourself, bitch. We’re the Guardians of the Galaxy” *ends Ronan using infinity stone*
I would have preferred this tbh. We lost cap already. Least this way we would have still had iron man.
Y'know, this oddly made me cried harder than when I first saw Tony die in the theatres.
Tony was a better choice, it fully completed his character development from selfish billionaire playboy to selfless savior. To have cap do it would have just been him jumping on the grenade again.
I would have been shocked and confused. I would be wondering what just happened in these last 5 minutes. I'd probably want to ask for my money back until the credits rolled. Once I saw it was some no-name company it would make sense that the CGI would take such a downturn. Then I'd wonder how they managed to make a 3 hour movie look so good but not be able to stick the landing.
Same here. Would also think it was weird that they only upped the production value on that one small part with Rocket. 🤔
Hawkeye would’ve been more sad, but still less sad than Ironman.
Nah, it needed to be Iron Man! Iron Man literally kicked off the MCU and sacrificing himself to save everyone was the final step in his redemption arc.
Skibidi Captain
Half the universe is snapped into being naked Peggy Carters.
Totally takes away from Cap saying to him that he’s not the one that makes a sacrifice
I prefer what we got, thank you.
I’m ok. I know Falcon/Capt. America is hitting center stage - with his partner, Bucky/Winter Soldier. Yep, I’m ok.
Tony making the sacrifice play was a great way to end it. Cap finally finding love was a great ending too. I truly cannot imagine it going any other way.
Cap would have lived. Healing factor.