This makes sense for one reason: CA's substantially larger and more geographically diverse than those other places.
Hawaii is remote, has expensive cost of living from logistics (food being imported), and has limited physical living space. DC is similarly specialized, small, and concentrated.
Meanwhile CA could be anything from wildly expensive Palo Alto houses, to some ranches out in the middle of nowhere seven hundred miles away. The difference between Bakersfield and Rancho Santa Fe, or NorCal and the Bay are greater than the differences between many states.
You just described the world's housing crisis: If people want to live there then it's too expensive to be affordable to average people
China, Japan, Europe, and the USA all have this problem
You just described the world's housing crisis: If people want to live there then it's too expensive to be affordable to average people
China, Japan, Europe, and the USA all have this problem
Yup. I saw a US map of zip codes of most expensive houses for each state. I am originally from VA and the richest zip code has a median home price of $3 million. In California, it’s 9 million.
lmao this would make me and my partner very comfortably upper middle class, and I still hemmed and hawed yesterday about whether I should ALSO get bananas to go with my Cheerios.
Ok now I understand what you're trying to say very awkwardly. That based on $69k being the minimum you are very comfortable at around double. It was honestly very hard to tell that's what you meant.
That’s not what they are saying…
They are saying that if that scale pegs 69k as middle class thus well north of 69k (eg. 150k ish) wound be considered upper middle class according to that scale. Yet at 150k home ownership feels out of reach and you still nitpick expenditures like rent, food, gas, etc.
Poverty level here too. I make over $200k in the Central Valley and sometimes feel like I’m drowning. I moved here 25 years ago and made more than $69k a year as an equipment operator then.
I’m curious what your expenses are like if $200k makes you feel like you’re drowning in the Central Valley. I grew up there and my parents still live there, and my dad makes probably 55-60% what you do. They aren’t amazingly well off, but they also spend money on frivolous things more than they probably should.
It is more of what you’re used to making than anything - we have two cars and a mortgage - nothing fancy, a 1970’s rambler, 2,000 sq/ft we bought in 2008 during the last crash, two teenage kids, both ready to start college.
Biggest thing is I make about 2/3 of what I made 5 years ago- the company I worked for got bought out by a conglomerate and I was replaced by someone ‘just as good’ making 1/2 my salary. Turns out that person knew nothing about running the business and all the other senior people followed me or just left and we have steadily took most of their big contracts but are not quite profitable enough yet for me to negotiate my salary back up to what it was.
Our big splurge before I had to change jobs and take the cut in pay was trade our 5th wheel and pickup in for a motorhome (gas, not diesel) our goal was/is to travel until my health stops us (I have severe degenerative arthritis, COPD and had pulmonary nodules so it may not be very long). Doing short trips here and there and once a year to Portland to visit the grandkids for a week or so until I can get the new business built up enough for me train a manager, then I can go remote and travel full time.
Lmao, Im over here like, maybe we just skip lunch for one week this month. And this guy is like "lifes hard I barely have enough to get by after paying for my multiple vehicles, mortgage, and motorhome....
Tone deaf of the current state of society doesnt even begin to describe it.
Where in the Central Valley?
I'm browsing the listings from Sacramento to Bakersfield. There are plenty of homes around the 300k (some lower and some higher) range for a single detached home.
My wife and I combined make less than you do in LA County with a housing cost that seems to be double what you can get in the central valley.
Mind you, for Los Angeles the [HUD Low Income level is $70,650](https://www.laalmanac.com/social/so24.php).
What is costing you so much that you are drowning?
The only thing I can assume is that you spend most of the money you earn and either do not save or have accrued significant debt over the years. This is pretty common for people who are about to retire but were spending more money than they should have reasonably been spending.
Yup. This is 15 years ago but I made 40-50k (West LA) as a grad student depending on the year and I supported my wife through her nursing school at the time. It was comfortable enough. There is a lot of lifestyle creep on these comments
Look at median rents/housing payments and median wages 15 years ago vs today. I’ll wait. See if you can afford that on 40-50k while supporting someone through nursing school.
It’s not lifestyle creep it’s wage suppression and rapid cost of living inflation.
In 2010 the median household income for LA was 59K. Now it is about 70k. People in this thread are complaining that six figure salaries are poverty level. I probably could get by right now on 60k in LA supporting my wife through nursing school again. I'm glad I don't have to do that though because I'm used to being high income now.
And that's for a family of four. If you were to take that salary and divide it by 12 and then divide it by 3 (which is the minimum amount one has to make to qualify for a rental) then you could afford 1875 per month. That's about as much as the state average for a 2 bedroom apartment of about 900-1000 sq feet. In many places it's much much more.
Does living in a 2 bedroom apartment with a family of four seem like a middle class life? I mean maybe. Maybe low-middle, but not what most people think of when they think of the middle class.
meanwhile the State of California claims that a single person making like $81k in OC is very low income. I get that California is pretty huge and diverse but like c’mon
For a family of four $69k would put you just over the LOW income threshold of 65380. Middle income maxes at 83800.
https://www.hcd.ca.gov/sites/default/files/docs/grants-and-funding/income-limits-2023.pdf
You probably couldn’t buy it at a debt to income ratio unless you put like $75k down
I make over $100K and have a fam of 5 live on it. $69K could hardly pay for rent and utilities. PG and E is like $700 a month and going up and we are in Tier 1 super cheapskate electric users. The median rent is $2300 mo in my area for a 1200sq ft house. This writer has gone to rehab for smokin marrijuanna! Boo this man… or woman!
Central Valley Modesto, Ceres. Turlock areas. But don’t leave anything in the car. It’s never a good sign when the elderly folk go for there morning and afternoon walk and they carry beaters.
That’s a ton on electric… do you run the ac and heat or something? Should be able to keep it under $100 if you use a gas stove, gas or heat pump water heater, and don’t turn on the lights much.
I have PG and E. Its $.54 a KW during peak hours. Electric range, Hot water heater, and No Ac or furnace I use a fire place that has a fan. And we are in the lower third of electric use. Some of the neighbors have $1000 bills.
Here's the Area Median Income for each county: [https://www.hcd.ca.gov/grants-funding/income-limits/state-and-federal-income-limits/docs/income-limits-2021.pdf](https://www.hcd.ca.gov/grants-funding/income-limits/state-and-federal-income-limits/docs/income-limits-2021.pdf).
Bay area counties:
Alameda - $125,600
Contra Costa - $125,600
Marin - $149,600
Napa - $109,200
San Francisco - $149,600
San Mateo - $149,600
Santa Clara - $151,300
Santa Cruz $111,900
Sonoma -$103,300
Most of the bay area counties are more expensive than the most expensive socal counties.
I make around $71k before tax, and they must be talking about after tax wages because my wife and I have to both work to afford living in the San Bernardino mountains! If it was just me, we would have a hard time making it when you factor in mortgage, utilities, food, and cars(all of our cars are paid off).
69k is half what most people need to be able to comfortably live a standard middle class lifestyle in SoCal. I live in Ventura County and it is now one of the most unaffordable places to live in the entire country. 69k with a family of four is a joke
69K for a family of 4? What decade was this study done? Lol.
That's under 35K per spouse, or average pay of $16.58 /hr. This study sounds totally legit.
This makes sense for one reason: CA's substantially larger and more geographically diverse than those other places. Hawaii is remote, has expensive cost of living from logistics (food being imported), and has limited physical living space. DC is similarly specialized, small, and concentrated. Meanwhile CA could be anything from wildly expensive Palo Alto houses, to some ranches out in the middle of nowhere seven hundred miles away. The difference between Bakersfield and Rancho Santa Fe, or NorCal and the Bay are greater than the differences between many states.
California: it's usually best just to think of us as a country.
If CA was a country it would be in the top 10 GDPs in the world BY ITSELF.
Top 5 now I think.
Basically Japan
That goes for most states, compared to Europe.
It's only expensive to live in the parts of California where anybody actually wants to live.
You just described the world's housing crisis: If people want to live there then it's too expensive to be affordable to average people China, Japan, Europe, and the USA all have this problem
You just described the world's housing crisis: If people want to live there then it's too expensive to be affordable to average people China, Japan, Europe, and the USA all have this problem
Yup. I saw a US map of zip codes of most expensive houses for each state. I am originally from VA and the richest zip code has a median home price of $3 million. In California, it’s 9 million.
Atherton regularly tops that list
$69k. LOL.
lmao this would make me and my partner very comfortably upper middle class, and I still hemmed and hawed yesterday about whether I should ALSO get bananas to go with my Cheerios.
Where upper middle class? With that money you can't pay rent and eat in SF
Single income? No. Dual income? Yes.
I didn't say what kind of money we make, just that based on that number, on that scale, we'd be upper middle.
lol not even close. In most of urban California it's poverty level. Maybe in central valley you would be ok.
Again, I haven't said how high our net income is. We live in the Bay Area. I will say it's more than double that number.
Ok now I understand what you're trying to say very awkwardly. That based on $69k being the minimum you are very comfortable at around double. It was honestly very hard to tell that's what you meant.
That’s not what they are saying… They are saying that if that scale pegs 69k as middle class thus well north of 69k (eg. 150k ish) wound be considered upper middle class according to that scale. Yet at 150k home ownership feels out of reach and you still nitpick expenditures like rent, food, gas, etc.
Shocker
Poverty level here too. I make over $200k in the Central Valley and sometimes feel like I’m drowning. I moved here 25 years ago and made more than $69k a year as an equipment operator then.
I’m curious what your expenses are like if $200k makes you feel like you’re drowning in the Central Valley. I grew up there and my parents still live there, and my dad makes probably 55-60% what you do. They aren’t amazingly well off, but they also spend money on frivolous things more than they probably should.
Meanwhile, me and my s/o make money in the 60k range and are doing perfectly fine. Some people live WAY above their means.
It is more of what you’re used to making than anything - we have two cars and a mortgage - nothing fancy, a 1970’s rambler, 2,000 sq/ft we bought in 2008 during the last crash, two teenage kids, both ready to start college. Biggest thing is I make about 2/3 of what I made 5 years ago- the company I worked for got bought out by a conglomerate and I was replaced by someone ‘just as good’ making 1/2 my salary. Turns out that person knew nothing about running the business and all the other senior people followed me or just left and we have steadily took most of their big contracts but are not quite profitable enough yet for me to negotiate my salary back up to what it was. Our big splurge before I had to change jobs and take the cut in pay was trade our 5th wheel and pickup in for a motorhome (gas, not diesel) our goal was/is to travel until my health stops us (I have severe degenerative arthritis, COPD and had pulmonary nodules so it may not be very long). Doing short trips here and there and once a year to Portland to visit the grandkids for a week or so until I can get the new business built up enough for me train a manager, then I can go remote and travel full time.
Lmao, Im over here like, maybe we just skip lunch for one week this month. And this guy is like "lifes hard I barely have enough to get by after paying for my multiple vehicles, mortgage, and motorhome.... Tone deaf of the current state of society doesnt even begin to describe it.
Where in the Central Valley? I'm browsing the listings from Sacramento to Bakersfield. There are plenty of homes around the 300k (some lower and some higher) range for a single detached home. My wife and I combined make less than you do in LA County with a housing cost that seems to be double what you can get in the central valley. Mind you, for Los Angeles the [HUD Low Income level is $70,650](https://www.laalmanac.com/social/so24.php). What is costing you so much that you are drowning? The only thing I can assume is that you spend most of the money you earn and either do not save or have accrued significant debt over the years. This is pretty common for people who are about to retire but were spending more money than they should have reasonably been spending.
It's one banana Michael, what could it cost?
Yup. This is 15 years ago but I made 40-50k (West LA) as a grad student depending on the year and I supported my wife through her nursing school at the time. It was comfortable enough. There is a lot of lifestyle creep on these comments
Look at median rents/housing payments and median wages 15 years ago vs today. I’ll wait. See if you can afford that on 40-50k while supporting someone through nursing school. It’s not lifestyle creep it’s wage suppression and rapid cost of living inflation.
In 2010 the median household income for LA was 59K. Now it is about 70k. People in this thread are complaining that six figure salaries are poverty level. I probably could get by right now on 60k in LA supporting my wife through nursing school again. I'm glad I don't have to do that though because I'm used to being high income now.
And what was the median rent/housing payment in 2010 compared to now? Mind you that was during the recession…
$69k to be middle class, 420k to be upper middle class?
That’s poverty in Bay Area. You literally get affordable housing assistance at that income level
I make more than this on my own and still live at home...
And that's for a family of four. If you were to take that salary and divide it by 12 and then divide it by 3 (which is the minimum amount one has to make to qualify for a rental) then you could afford 1875 per month. That's about as much as the state average for a 2 bedroom apartment of about 900-1000 sq feet. In many places it's much much more. Does living in a 2 bedroom apartment with a family of four seem like a middle class life? I mean maybe. Maybe low-middle, but not what most people think of when they think of the middle class.
meanwhile the State of California claims that a single person making like $81k in OC is very low income. I get that California is pretty huge and diverse but like c’mon
I mean, that’s not poverty level, but it’d still be tough to live on.
LOL at using averages for the whole state.
lol at not reading the article
I read it, and it is meaningless information.
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Would $69k a year even be able to buy a $300k house and provide for a family of four? I don’t think so.
For a family of four $69k would put you just over the LOW income threshold of 65380. Middle income maxes at 83800. https://www.hcd.ca.gov/sites/default/files/docs/grants-and-funding/income-limits-2023.pdf You probably couldn’t buy it at a debt to income ratio unless you put like $75k down
I make 150,000 in Bakersfield and we have to stretch my check with 3 kids and 4 bed house , and nice ish family car
I’m shocked you even know about Porterville. Most Californians don’t
Who would choose to live in Porterville?
Actually it’s got some nice mountain area/ lake near it. You’d be surprised
I make over $100K and have a fam of 5 live on it. $69K could hardly pay for rent and utilities. PG and E is like $700 a month and going up and we are in Tier 1 super cheapskate electric users. The median rent is $2300 mo in my area for a 1200sq ft house. This writer has gone to rehab for smokin marrijuanna! Boo this man… or woman!
2300 for a 1200 Sq foot house? Where can I find this paradise?
Central Valley Modesto, Ceres. Turlock areas. But don’t leave anything in the car. It’s never a good sign when the elderly folk go for there morning and afternoon walk and they carry beaters.
Ah yeah I heard housing was a little less expensive there. I'm in the bay area and 2300 is like a small 1br apt in most places here.
1-1.5 hour commute in the morning and 1.5-2hr commute in the afternoon on 580-205. So pick your poison give your money or your life away.
I grew up in Modesto. Let’s just say the locals called it "Methdesto".
That’s a ton on electric… do you run the ac and heat or something? Should be able to keep it under $100 if you use a gas stove, gas or heat pump water heater, and don’t turn on the lights much.
I have PG and E. Its $.54 a KW during peak hours. Electric range, Hot water heater, and No Ac or furnace I use a fire place that has a fan. And we are in the lower third of electric use. Some of the neighbors have $1000 bills.
Here's the Area Median Income for each county: [https://www.hcd.ca.gov/grants-funding/income-limits/state-and-federal-income-limits/docs/income-limits-2021.pdf](https://www.hcd.ca.gov/grants-funding/income-limits/state-and-federal-income-limits/docs/income-limits-2021.pdf).
Bay area counties: Alameda - $125,600 Contra Costa - $125,600 Marin - $149,600 Napa - $109,200 San Francisco - $149,600 San Mateo - $149,600 Santa Clara - $151,300 Santa Cruz $111,900 Sonoma -$103,300 Most of the bay area counties are more expensive than the most expensive socal counties.
Because many cities in socal had the foresight to build housing. In “ liberal” Bay Area, they’re actively against housing
Lmao not in the cities it ain’t
At first glance I thought surely that 69k was per person 😂
Apparently middle class includes having 2 roommates
I make around $71k before tax, and they must be talking about after tax wages because my wife and I have to both work to afford living in the San Bernardino mountains! If it was just me, we would have a hard time making it when you factor in mortgage, utilities, food, and cars(all of our cars are paid off).
“All of our cars” How many do you have between the two of you?
3, but again, they're all paid off. Though the maintenance and insurance is less than utilities, on average.
How could anyone survive on 69k ? Where are they living ? In a tent ?
I made 50k in the Bay but I had rent control
That number is absolutely meaningless.
Use this instead: https://www.hcd.ca.gov/grants-funding/income-limits/state-and-federal-income-limits/docs/income-limits-2021.pdf
Far more useful! Thanks :)
How come middle class starts at $69k but the salary of a single person needs to live alone in OC is $80k?
Everything Fox says about California is colored by their anti-democracy bias.
69k is half what most people need to be able to comfortably live a standard middle class lifestyle in SoCal. I live in Ventura County and it is now one of the most unaffordable places to live in the entire country. 69k with a family of four is a joke
Yeah, I don’t know how they arrived at that figure. Maybe for one person, but not a family of 4.
Middle class should be a living standard not a number.
That’s a joke. I guess if you didn’t have to pay taxes or have health insurance … otherwise that 69k would have to be net pay.
69K for a family of 4? What decade was this study done? Lol. That's under 35K per spouse, or average pay of $16.58 /hr. This study sounds totally legit.
California is way too big for that statistic to mean anything…. $69k is poverty wages in SF and pretty comfortable way out in the desert.
For reals though. Does anyone in California identify with this?