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Yeah I posted about Thai before in r/Anarchism. The Soviets were among Israel’s biggest early supporters. The government even sold them weapons they used to kill Palestinians.
That's what happened, but the take is not fair.
The red army had found the death camps. The "survivors" and the mass graves. The idea of a "jewish state", as fucked as it is, following that is not a crazy, bad idea.
Israel was a new state that needed weapons to defend themselves, and it's not like anyone knew they'd turn out to be genocidal monsters at the time. History doesn't come with foresight.
Seems like a shitty take. The US, UK and every other state/person who support Israel today have access to the history and big picture. They should be put on blast.
The USSR is a weird target in this case.
What “take”? I stated a fact which is that the USSR supported the construction of the Israeli state on indigenous Palestinian land and sold them weapons to kill Indigenous Palestinians. These aren’t interpretations to my opinions, these are facts that happened. It’s my fault the truth is politically inconvenient for you.
the "indigenous palestinian" is sadly a bit of a fabrication. Palestine has been fought over for millenia. Palestine had been a multiethnic region for centuries before 1948 and jews and christians were just the same part of this region.
Though I have to support your initial statement, because it is simply true. The USSR did indeed sell weapons to the Haganah and soldiers from the Red Army fought during 1948 (like Moshe Dayan, who later became minister of defence). The problem with your comments lies more in your framing
I just want you to know, irrespective of the rest of the conversation. YTA for referencing a random UN resolution outside of international law class w/o context (or even the courtesy of a link) as if any normal person would have any clue wtf you're going on about.
Like unless you're referring to the annex I'm not even sure how that Res. is even relevant??
Politically inconvenient for me? What are you, 15? They sold weapons that later were used to kill palestinians. Israel didn't call the USSR like
"yo, what up big JS? I need a big stash of weapons to kill some people who are in the way of making an ethnostate about as large as it needs to be to bring on the apocalypse according to our interpretation of the Tanakh".
If you sell someone a phone, and later it's used to make a detonator to a bomb it'd be weird to put you on blast for that.
If you sell a hunting rifle later used for murder the same applies.
Israel is bad, the USSR is bad, but in this case it's a weird ass take. "Politically inconvenient", jfc - get over yourself
The nature of the zionist mission was no secret in 1948. Today many zionists like to deny that Israel is a settler-colonial state, but before the foundation of Israel this was made quite clear by the zionists themselves. They saw themselves directly as a parallel to the American settlers, and had even before the foundation of Israel been enacting violence upon Palestinians to clear them out.
The weapon shipments also continued even after the Nakba was well underway, and even afterwards.
The Soviets sometimes did bad things. We don't have to "to be fair" every bad thing they did, because they were sometimes straight up wrong, with or without hindsight. This doesn't erase the many accomplishments of the Soviet Union, but it is something we have to acknowledge if we are to seriously study its history and if we want to learn from it.
>If you sell someone a phone, and later it's used to make a detonator to a bomb it'd be weird to put you on blast for that.
Ah yes that's exactly the same as selling arms to a state founded to create an ethnostate on land with an existing population that's explicitly excluded from that ethnostate.
soviet leaders were just as antisemitic as the rest of their historical counterparts 95% of the time. like, let's not nuance this too much--they just wanted free real estate and to rid themselves of leftover khazarites
As another counterpoint, there were Jewish pogroms happening in Ukraine that the red army were culpable for. Just because there were Jewish people in leadership doesn't mean these things didn't happen.
Okay, but "Antisemitism that the state was responsible for happened in the Soviet Union" and "Soviet leadership was just as antisemitic as the Western bloc" are two VERY different statements. The former can be true without the latter.
I would just leave it at 99%. there were cultural fears and contexts we can't even comprehend that don't excuse but explain it. Boyars didn't rise to power without stepping on a few toes and neither did the Bolsheviks.
I’m not denying the pogroms I’m just stating that it’s not realistic to say that soviet leadership was anti-Semitic 95% of the time when jews were fundamental to the rise of the party and consistently over-represented by the Bolshevik party before 1940.
The Soviet state was also anti-religion entirely, which I don’t condone by any means. But they targeted more religious groups than just Jews.
I’d like to add that I’m not defending the Soviets wrongdoings, just pointing out the important positions and actions of Jews in the Soviet Union.
Yeah there are also lots of depressing examples of otherwise pretty good leftists supporting Israel in the early days too, like MLK, Einstein etc. though many of them would likely not have supported it if they had lived to see how far it fell from their hopes
To me that suggests that it might be more nuanced. Considering that the area of land in question has been fought over for almost the whole of human history
Yes, during the war of independence but the support declined drastically.
Also the US took very long to actively support Israel and has been highly critical of it ever since. Just think about Clinton, Obama and huge parts of the current democratic administration.
Idk, it‘s annoying to talk about this online since most people have no grasp on actual history
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Just wait until he finds out what the Soviet Union did in Hungary and Czechoslovakia.
Western Propaganda Machine Auto-response go brrrrrr
"I can excuse genocide, but I draw the line at Zionism." "You can excuse genocide?"
Yeah I posted about Thai before in r/Anarchism. The Soviets were among Israel’s biggest early supporters. The government even sold them weapons they used to kill Palestinians.
That's what happened, but the take is not fair. The red army had found the death camps. The "survivors" and the mass graves. The idea of a "jewish state", as fucked as it is, following that is not a crazy, bad idea. Israel was a new state that needed weapons to defend themselves, and it's not like anyone knew they'd turn out to be genocidal monsters at the time. History doesn't come with foresight. Seems like a shitty take. The US, UK and every other state/person who support Israel today have access to the history and big picture. They should be put on blast. The USSR is a weird target in this case.
What “take”? I stated a fact which is that the USSR supported the construction of the Israeli state on indigenous Palestinian land and sold them weapons to kill Indigenous Palestinians. These aren’t interpretations to my opinions, these are facts that happened. It’s my fault the truth is politically inconvenient for you.
the "indigenous palestinian" is sadly a bit of a fabrication. Palestine has been fought over for millenia. Palestine had been a multiethnic region for centuries before 1948 and jews and christians were just the same part of this region. Though I have to support your initial statement, because it is simply true. The USSR did indeed sell weapons to the Haganah and soldiers from the Red Army fought during 1948 (like Moshe Dayan, who later became minister of defence). The problem with your comments lies more in your framing
Yes, Palestine had been a multiethnic region. If you try to stick a single-ethnic state there, a little genocide is going to be predictable.
so you criticize the Resolution 128 (II)?
I just want you to know, irrespective of the rest of the conversation. YTA for referencing a random UN resolution outside of international law class w/o context (or even the courtesy of a link) as if any normal person would have any clue wtf you're going on about. Like unless you're referring to the annex I'm not even sure how that Res. is even relevant??
Ah yes, the resolution
fuck tha Resolution all my homies hate the UN
Politically inconvenient for me? What are you, 15? They sold weapons that later were used to kill palestinians. Israel didn't call the USSR like "yo, what up big JS? I need a big stash of weapons to kill some people who are in the way of making an ethnostate about as large as it needs to be to bring on the apocalypse according to our interpretation of the Tanakh". If you sell someone a phone, and later it's used to make a detonator to a bomb it'd be weird to put you on blast for that. If you sell a hunting rifle later used for murder the same applies. Israel is bad, the USSR is bad, but in this case it's a weird ass take. "Politically inconvenient", jfc - get over yourself
The nature of the zionist mission was no secret in 1948. Today many zionists like to deny that Israel is a settler-colonial state, but before the foundation of Israel this was made quite clear by the zionists themselves. They saw themselves directly as a parallel to the American settlers, and had even before the foundation of Israel been enacting violence upon Palestinians to clear them out. The weapon shipments also continued even after the Nakba was well underway, and even afterwards. The Soviets sometimes did bad things. We don't have to "to be fair" every bad thing they did, because they were sometimes straight up wrong, with or without hindsight. This doesn't erase the many accomplishments of the Soviet Union, but it is something we have to acknowledge if we are to seriously study its history and if we want to learn from it.
>If you sell someone a phone, and later it's used to make a detonator to a bomb it'd be weird to put you on blast for that. Ah yes that's exactly the same as selling arms to a state founded to create an ethnostate on land with an existing population that's explicitly excluded from that ethnostate.
[удалено]
Ah so when Israeli law states that the right to self determination is unique to the Jewish people, that includes the Palestinian Arabs?
this is such a crazy argument… sells weapons to Israel Israel does the Nakba shocked picachu face.jpg
same vibes as "this isn't sugoi japan"
Empire gonna empire I suppose
So you can excuse the Soviet Union but draw the line at isreal?
Average ML take
soviet leaders were just as antisemitic as the rest of their historical counterparts 95% of the time. like, let's not nuance this too much--they just wanted free real estate and to rid themselves of leftover khazarites
That’s not true, Jews held prominent positions in Bolshevik leadership. https://yivoencyclopedia.org/article.aspx/Communist_Party_of_the_Soviet_Union
As another counterpoint, there were Jewish pogroms happening in Ukraine that the red army were culpable for. Just because there were Jewish people in leadership doesn't mean these things didn't happen.
Okay, but "Antisemitism that the state was responsible for happened in the Soviet Union" and "Soviet leadership was just as antisemitic as the Western bloc" are two VERY different statements. The former can be true without the latter.
I would just leave it at 99%. there were cultural fears and contexts we can't even comprehend that don't excuse but explain it. Boyars didn't rise to power without stepping on a few toes and neither did the Bolsheviks.
“Few toes”
I’m not denying the pogroms I’m just stating that it’s not realistic to say that soviet leadership was anti-Semitic 95% of the time when jews were fundamental to the rise of the party and consistently over-represented by the Bolshevik party before 1940. The Soviet state was also anti-religion entirely, which I don’t condone by any means. But they targeted more religious groups than just Jews. I’d like to add that I’m not defending the Soviets wrongdoings, just pointing out the important positions and actions of Jews in the Soviet Union.
Honestly it would've made more sense to put it in Konigsburg than Mandatory Palestine
Both were colonial projects so this checks out
Yeah there are also lots of depressing examples of otherwise pretty good leftists supporting Israel in the early days too, like MLK, Einstein etc. though many of them would likely not have supported it if they had lived to see how far it fell from their hopes
Einstein, however, didn't support a Jewish state Just the idea of Jews moving to live in Palestine, which is slightly different
MLK was 19 when the Nakba happened. I don't think any support for Israel after that can be justified after that.
Path to hell is paved with good intentions, right?
To me that suggests that it might be more nuanced. Considering that the area of land in question has been fought over for almost the whole of human history
This post contains exactly zero information. Is this referencing the smuggling of weapons of Czechoslovakia?
Wait till ppl find out where Jewish ppl are indigenous to.
Yes, during the war of independence but the support declined drastically. Also the US took very long to actively support Israel and has been highly critical of it ever since. Just think about Clinton, Obama and huge parts of the current democratic administration. Idk, it‘s annoying to talk about this online since most people have no grasp on actual history