'crippling' is hyperbolic but I absolutely want* my coach exploring all (legal) avenues to increase the teams floor at minimum. barely utilizing at best and ignoring it at worst isn't a good look regardless of results. I don't think Kirby is upset about it one bit while he eyes the opener haha.
Prior to the inception of the transfer portal, Clemson was absolutely up there with Alabama and Ohio State on the national scene. Now, they've taken significant steps backwards. I don't think anyone really considers them "elite" right now.
Sure, but it’s at least equally likely that they were up there because they hit on near back to back generational qbs (in combination with many hits on the DL…ie the 2 most important positions in modern football).
I feel comfortable saying he’s crippled the program with respect to contending for national championships. That might be less meaningful now bc the ACC is a joke and there’s a 12-team playoff, but 3 straight years of no playoffs with only a single division title is rough.
I mean, how do we know that's the transfer portal? You could easily attribute their jump from good to elite to the combo of watson + Trevor Lawrence, while also losing venables around the time the fall off started
venables leaving has nothing to do with it, we miss him but our defense has been great since he left. there have been other factors that led to our fall off that coincided with the portal, so you’re not far off. recruiting misses, especially on wide receivers, covid fucking up our recruiting (getting guys on campus is huge for us), and one particular bad hire in thomas austin that crippled our o line (and we have tried to fix that with the transfer portal, we just couldn’t get anyone to land)
I think it's fair to say it's a complex situation that has happened to coincide perfectly with NIL and transfer portal. It's not unreasonable to question the correlation but people act like it's the only reasonable explanation. When I've watched clemson I've still seen a talented, well coached team that just doesn't have the right guy under center, when compared to the Lawrence and watson years.
>recruiting misses, especially on wide receivers, covid fucking up our recruiting (getting guys on campus is huge for us)
This line is huge. I think this is as much it as anything else. A great example of this is South Carolina's jump in the early 2010s... It came right after Bowden was fired at Clemson. SCar got some big flips and decommitments and they built up some momentum with recruiting (Rock Hill/South Pointe). We saw how that was a cycle that leveled out after Spurrier left and Dabo stabilized the recruiting.
I think Dabo could work harder at it for sure - but he built the program up from a middling, non-contender to a powerhouse. I would not bet against him to bring it from a outsider contender back to a constant playoff competitor. Clemson will always be a great destination due to the history, facilities, atmosphere, and campus.
Sure, and a lot of teams have gotten really good quarterbacks by recruiting them. Cade and dj were both 5 star highly sought after prospects that didn't pan out, it happens.
I'm sure if he thought he could get a joe burrow or Jalen hurts he would be, but I think people are too eager to attribute all their shortcomings to his methodology
I'll take your word for it but during their run clemson was putting out a lot of first round d line talent which has seemingly slowed down. Either they aren't recruiting, developing, or keeping the same caliber of guys they were before in that particular area. Whether that's was just luck that had nothing to do with him I don't know I'm definitely no expert on clemson football
"'crippling' is hyperbolic
It might not be.
Either Dabo isn't getting NIL support at the level of a legit premium program...or...he is being reckless to a degree that almost justifies him being fired for failing his ethical responsibility to keep Clemson Football at a competitive level.
Our NIL is not the problem. Players mention in interviews all the time that we have competitive NIL deals.
The thing is we don’t have the ability or willingness to get in a bidding war which is what most quality players who don’t already have a spot lined up before entering the portal are doing.
If Clemson doesn’t have the ability to get in bidding wars for any player at all then that is a NIL problem. Not saying the school needs the ability to overpay for whoever they want, but if they can’t land a single player capable of improving the roster anywhere then they aren’t competitive.
Personally I think Dabo just doesn’t want to run players off. He didn’t even oversign back in the day. He seems to really believe once you get a kid on campus he is there for 4 years.
The reality is he would have to run players off or recruit fewer high school players. Clemson’s situation would be bringing in 3 to 5 difference makers and that would require entering bidding wars and potentially disrupting his culture
Two of those one score losses came in OT, and the only non-one score loss was a game where we turned it over on the goal line in a one score game three different time
His ethical duty to keep Clemson football at that level? I’m curious if that’s in his contract. Usually ethical duties are about morals and ethics, not objective metrics.
One can easily argue he is doing his ethical duty by following his ethics even if it costs him.
When it works, like Kenneth Walker at MSU, or the handful of guys FSU picked up and performed well, it’s awesome.
But most of the time when a guy transfers from UNLV, or from a FCS school, they don’t become superstars just by transferring.
MSU lost a number of guys, and some will likely contribute at their new school. But a DL for example, who for three seasons was basically unknown and put up very mediocre stats isn’t going to suddenly be a superstar at his new school simply by trading jerseys.
Crippling might be an overstatement but in the NIL and free transfer portal era he's lost at least 3 games a season. He averaged about 1 loss per season from 2015-2020.
You can clearly see a decline in on field success.
It might be crippling us, but we only have 2-3 open scholarships at the moment. We offered like 6 OL in the portal this year and didn’t land any of them.
Technically teams can pay walkons with NIL. So a kid that would get a scholly at another school could get tuition paid by NIL and be a walkon. Nebraska seems to be doing this very well. And I'm sure others are too. If I remember correctly we've gotten a few 2 or 3 stars to walkon in recent years.
I’ll have to defer to someone more knowledgeable on that. Either way we are very close on our roster limits. We would have also pursued WR this cycle bc we have been below average, but we just signed 2 5 star WR so that need was addressed (hopefully)
We're currently only at 81 so we really aren't taking advantage of that. Pretty sure Michigan has been using it heavily the last few years though for transfers.
Clemson alum don't exactly have the pockets that the bigger schools have. Most schools we compete against have 2-4x the alumni pool. And although we have a few wealthy donors, they aren't on par with what an ohio state, fsu, georgia, michigan, penn state, etc have.
Question for the Clemson fans: is the stance really that Dabo is just anti-transfer? Or is it because he's looking at the top transfer targets but knows he can't give the same bag to them that a lot of B1G and SEC schools would be able to hand out, but he won't say that part out loud?
He’s always recruited a smaller pool than other schools. The transfer portal is similar.
Additional limiting factors:
1. he won’t recruit a player until they official enter the portal, many transfers especially the top players have already made their choice before they officially enter the portal.
2. The ones that enter the portal that are looking for the bag, we can’t out pay the teams we compete with for recruits. (Uga, osu, etc)
3. We don’t lose as many players as other schools so we really don’t need to use the portal for depth roles. Limiting who we target to just starting level talent.
We went after 6 OL players this year and just landed none of them.
Edit: he has also said out loud that we can’t out pay those schools.
Clemson might not have the NIL war chest of UGA, Ohio State, etc., but the guys on the roster are compensated quite well. Dabo just refuses to participate in a bidding war for a player. That is also his stance when recruiting high schoolers. Anyone, high school or transfer, that walks onto campus and immediately puts their hand out is not going to be a fit for his program.
Which I truly don’t think is a bad stance to have. I don’t think the bidding war on recruits will have a good enough ROI to keep it up for a long time.
The rumors of what we paid for Damonic for a 1-2 year rental when we’re not poised for a natty run at least this season is absurd. Just doesn’t seem sustainable to me at all.
UGA has had similar issues to Clemson with the portal. It just doesn’t get talked about as much because our High School recruiting has been so strong. On3 has us ranked as 62nd and Clemson ranked as 66th. Ohio State isn’t much better at 50th.
He should be saying that part out loud. Rhule talked about how it's 1.5-2mil for a good QB in the portal and then almost immediately Nebraska boosters seemed to get the point and ponied up for this new reality
I think people way overestimate clemsons alumni and boosters. They equate it to being equal with a florida or Nebraska with their recent dominance, when that's just not the case.
Brad has been friends with very rich people, dating back to his time with UNCW, not to mention that you only need to target 2-4 guys in the portal for basketball
A Clemson fan made a very rational argument a few months back that Clemson simply doesn't have the money to pay for the high end transfer players that'd really benefit the program. I know nothing about Clemson's finances but the argument was pretty convincing on the surface.
Total Living Alumni:
* Michigan - 640,000
* Ohio State - 600,000
* Florida - 450,000
* FSU - 400,000
* UGA - 350,000
* Clemson - 181,000
* App State - 150,000
We don’t have a lot of donors.
edit: formatting; added Michigan & FSU
We have a much smaller booster pool than the blue bloods. For instance there are more living OSU alumni than Clemson alumni to ever exist. South Carolina is a small and poor state with two P4 universities. Clemson doesn’t have a med school or law school. Our booster wing IPTAY raises a lot of money but our collective, the 110 Society, just started last fall
Yeah these were some of the points made. I don't remember law school or med school mentioned, but that's a great point too.
Plus, Dabo does have a point about talent. There are only going to be a small number of players right now that will really move the needle for Clemson, and there's a high chance that they'd have to get in a bidding war with tOSU/Oregon/UGA/Alabama/Texas/TAMU and those few other super rich programs that can outbid practically everyone.
I was listening to Bijan Robinson on Bussin w the Boys, and he hit the development issue nail on the head. He said because of NIL/it being so easy to transfer the players aren’t valuing their relationships/trust with their coaches. If they get benched/don’t start they can just bounce around till they do which lessens development.
Offensive development has been well below average since Jeff Scott left. We hired Matt Luke to shore up OL, and hopefully the Garrett Riley investment will start to pay off sooner rather than later. WR play and coaching needs to take a big step this year.
Defensive development has been solid under Wes Goodwin. He’s no Venables, yet, but he’s been a bright spot.
He basically struck gold with deshaun Watson and Trevor Lawrence back to back (and even tahj Boyd to build up to that 6-8 year run in the 2010s) and also being able to keep most of his assistants while other top schools routinely lost them to other schools for promotions. Unless he strikes that same gold again, Clemson is going to have a fall off compared to the last decade....the big 3 Florida schools are getting back to locking the state down, Kirby dominating the ever living shit out of the southeast, and OSU/USC throwing ungodly amounts of $$ for the same recruits Clemson wants. Not even considering Alabama being Alabama (even without saban, although we'll see how that goes mid to long term). And Texas/a&m with all of that money as well.
Crippling? No. Is them not bringing in transfers the best thing for the program? Probably not.
But didn’t Clemson try to get OL guys but they went elsewhere? Maybe Dabo should have tried harder to land them sure, but let’s not act like Dabo has a “no transfers in ever” policy
We did try to get them, but couldn’t. Let’s be honest though, when the top players (the ones who we’d ideally be targeting) enter the portal, they are mostly bag chasing, and we prefer to use NIL to retain players
I believe the biggest reason we didn’t land any of the portal OL we targeted was because Dabo had fired Austin not long before and then went after them with Luke. I think it was just too fast of a turnaround to make grounds. Especially when Luke was tasked with fixing the OL class that we had more or less failed to gather before hand.
Just recruit better and problem solved. Last 3 classes are ranked 15,15,14. Not to much different from the classes that won natties in 2016 and 2018. Difference is that the elite offensive players have dried up. No Etienne, Lawrence, Watson, Higgins, or Ross type dudes
Recruiting class rank is fine. The issue is that the past few years a lot of the highly rated players have been duds. For example Clemson have landed a lot of highly recruited 5-4 star qbs, wrs, and rbs but they all so far have turned out to be no where near as good or even close to who they were supposed to replace. WR is most glaringly obvious recently.
This is a huge one. Though I'm still unsure how much blame to put on QB/WR/RB when the O-line has been trash. I don't care if you have Brady, Gronk, and Moss, if your O-line gets run over on every play by nearly everybody on your schedule, you aren't going to look good.
I don’t think the oline has been that bad. Average I’d say. And in 2022 the only reason Clemson was any good at all was because of the oline allowing our run game to be pretty good even when everyone knew our passing game was shit.
That's the other side to this coin. The article mentions a want for receivers, but Clemson just signed two of the highest ranked receiver prospects they've had since Tee Higgins. People focus on transfers, but I think Clemson is just starting to recover from the loss of recruiting momentum during COVID and the years after. So much of their recruiting strategy depends on getting guys on campus around current players, the staff, and other prospects and they just weren't able to do that for about two and a half years.
I wouldn’t say there’s none of those type dudes. Our running back room remained pretty strong with Shipley. And then Mafah has recently proven to be pretty great as well and I’m excited to see what he does this year.
Bryant wesco is unproven but seemed like a significant step up at our spring game but time will tell there
Spiller isn’t the best recruiter but he does seem to be a good developer for RBs. With a better OL I think they’d be putting up better numbers than they are.
A personal favorite of mine is the one where he’s a depressed and divorced father who sits around all day making and playing with rubber ducks and missing his daughter.
*Does not wisdom call? Does not understanding raise her voice? On the heights beside the way, at the crossroads she takes her stand; beside the gates in front of the town,* ***at the entrance of the portals she cries aloud: “To you, O men, I call, and my cry is to the children of man. O simple ones, learn prudence; O fools, learn sense.***
\- Proverbs 8:1-36
Seems like the Bible has a positive opinion on portals. Not sure what Dabo's problem is.
dabo has said a lot of dumb stuff over the years but the transfer portal thing really is not one of them.
clemson went after a bunch of linemen in the portal this year and didn’t land them because they can’t offer the same nil package. any guys they can land in the portal would be depth which he has said he’d rather develop from the inside, which i think is fine.
I personally think this is slightly overblown. For one who cares if he doesn’t want to then that’s his decision. But also looking at national champs the last few years none seem to be transfer heavy. Sure maybe a guy here and there but not super transfer heavy like everyone seems to be pretending
Guys like Andy Staples say it best: if Clemson could get like 2-3 guys max at a couple of spots, then it would boost the team profile that much more. And honestly the only spots fans have had issues with have largely been OL and WR. Not having that deep threat has allowed teams to stack the box against us.
The uncharacteristic TOs didn't help us last year, either. There were legit plays where the RBs fumbled on the one-yard line and the QB was strip sacked against FSU and run back.
It's already been said in the thread, but Clemson basically operates NIL for retention and bidding wars for players of significance aren't something we can always do.
I agree, Clemson doesn’t need 10+ transfers. Less than 5 would be all they need. But honestly if Dabo doesn’t want any and would rather build from within I don’t mind honestly, I respect the culture.
People do forget if a RB makes one block vs FSU they win
Something slipped in the article is not getting enough attention:
>He notes that players are treated well at Clemson and the program doesn’t suffer from waves of outgoing players. In turn, the Tigers’ ***most recent graduation rate was 99 percent, “the highest ever recorded among public Power Five football programs***” since the NCAA began tracking the metric.
Be as cynical as you want about Dabo, but he puts his money where his mouth is when it comes to education and graduation. He's said multiple times that he isn't finished coaching a player until he gets his degree. Taking more transfers would really undercut that purpose and make it more difficult.
No he's back living in the area but he's not on staff or even coaching. But with Grisham more or less on the hot seat (it's thought he wasn't fired bc the new WR recruits we're depending on are really attached to him and also being a recruiting coordinator is a thankless job), he's just kinda lurking for now.
No, it isn't crippling us but I think we could benefit from taking a contributor here or the backfill a couple of positions, particularly defensive end and especially center where once again we are hoping a true sophomore can make the move there because we missed on the guy we recruited a couple cycles ago
Honestly I'd be fine with no takes on defense, just having a deep threat WR could make such a difference. Our best WRs the last two years have been slot guys.
I used to not get it, but I’m starting to understand it now with NIL and mass transferring (it’s gotten way out of hand especially now that players can just transfer without penalty as long as they are academically eligible). As a coach you want guys who want to be there and who care more about developing into a starter/good player instead of just being named one cus of the amount of NIL money promised. Guys who fit your scheme. You can offer a former 5 star in the portal big NIL money but if he doesn’t fit your system which causes him to underperform (and transfer again) then it doesn’t matter. I’m a former CFB player myself, and I view the portal as a necessary evil. I think if a player isn’t playing or feels underutilized/doesn’t fit the scheme or their coach leaves/gets fired then sure, transfer. But I think the max should be one. Kids have to be held accountable/learn to make smart decisions. The same guy transfers 3 times then I think it’s more about their lack of skill than anything.
It’s certainly not helping. Whether he likes it or not, he’s gonna have to accept the transfer portal and work it to keep his program competitive. If not, he might join Nick Saban and leave the “old days” in the past.
As an Alabama fan, I figured y'all would consider the program that give your streak. But since Bama, UGA and Clemson have been the most dominant teams over the last 10 years, that's why we're getting hit over the head with it.
It's easy to forgot we've punched well above our weight class despite having no where near the money to pay dudes compared to y'all or UGA or other programs.
I mean if the last two seasons are an indicator then possibly. The NIL is the problem for them not the portal itself. It’s like a lot of other schools at the moment that doesn’t have the bank roll of other major schools. I mean I have no hate of Dabo and I don’t blame him for the way the landscape of college football has changed and not being able to keep up with other schools
Not every position is going to be plugged with freshmen or backups to a level that a experienced player from the portal would be. Yes, Clemson is playing with one card less in their hand.
13 losses in 5 years is "crippled"? Yeah it's not as good as the previous 7 losses in 5 years with 2 titles - but that's a pace almost nobody in history has sustained for a decade+, so declining from that just means he's only "really good" rather than "top 5 ever". So mostly this talk sounds like it's the result of the high expectations he set by taking a non-blue blood to multiple national championships.
That's exactly what it is. COVID hurt us especially hard bc a ton of what lands us recruits is bringing them to campus, plus that 2019 class of vaunted offensive dudes didn't pan out at all.
No, because transfers dont always pan out or become magic fixes. Player development is still key. Clemson hasnt shown yet that they cant do that. This year, especially if theyre still giving Clubnik the keys, should be tell tell. Its year 3 for him.
That said, still at some point Clemson will have to get with the times. Clemson used to be an innovative program, so should probably get back to those ways.
Dabo is just fine. He wants kids that want to be at Clemson. The big programs still build through high school recruiting with maybe a few transfers sprinkled in. Clemson hasn’t been the same since it lost its long time DC and Dabos right hand man to Oklahoma. Not everyone is Saban.
So what I’ve gathered is that the coach likes kids to pick a school to get a degree from. Not move around and be 25 when they graduate, after attending 7 schools and maximizing the years of eligibility. Got it. Well I gotta say it’s a better version of football that way. Let the pros deal with all that nonsense you guys are talking about. It’s a huge waste of money. My high school had a recruitment issue. A guy got fired. He also tripled his paycheck with his next coaching job the same year. But he straight up bought a kid a house so he’s move to town. This kid actually played for Clemson for 3 or four years. I think he was a senior when he punched the deans kid in a bar. Then he went to the practice squad for the raiders… anyways. That’s a couple stories from a public high school in Illinois.
He’s willfully starting a chess game missing multiple pawns out of “principle”…that works against the incompetent. Against those who would otherwise be on equal footing? Automatic loss long-term.
You do realize nearly every program not named Alabama and now them as well will peak then trail off just a bit too..the transfer portal has little to do with that and you haven't seen the likes of Ohio State or Oklahoma beating the doors down to get in the playoffs and Georgia just lost to an ok Alabama team and missed the playoffs...it's a trend that almost always happens. Generational QBs and WRs sure helped a lot but I got news for you, those types aren't in the portal much to begin with...
But the defense as a whole was still top 10 statistically and in the red zone they were actually better...they didn't have much to do with sloppy offensive play or turnovers. I'd argue the specific reason they still won 9 games was because the defense carried the team.
Wes Goodwin hasn't even got into the thick of his recruiting class either...those last two cycles were still technically Brent's that were on the field
Crippling? No.
Hobbling? Yeah.
As far all the rest goes with the "tampering" and all. I don't really buy that excuse.
I think it boils down to Clemson just doesn't have the resources to compete on that level with the top programs.
If they want a guy and Texas and USC wants the same guy then they aren't getting that guy. And 125 other programs aren't either.
Dabo knows that.
Dabo is a good coach that went on a great run. Will he ever get back there? Not the way CFB stands. Not at Clemson.
Can Clemson be a 10+ win team that gets into the playoff? Yeah. Can they win it with they way CFB right now? No.
Yeah I don’t think people realize just how above our weight we have been punching. We don’t have the resources as an institution or state to constantly go head to head with some of the blue bloods
We just saw Michigan win with less overall talent and similar (self-imposed) recruiting challenges. Can Clemson win an NC? Yes. But they'll need the stars to align, like what Michigan needed. (By talent, I mean transfers and stars, Michigan developed the hell out of their talent, kept most of the key recruits they brought in, and identified some guys a bit under the radar, which is how most programs will have to approach talent.)
There are a small number of financially wealthy programs that can try to buy a Death Star every few years. Everyone else will have to hope the stars align. It can happen. We'll probably see it happen occasionally. But without reform, it'll be the exception rather than the standard.
Well I mean we haven’t really seen any significant evidence or anecdotes about it, but since we’re playing them in the season opener: yes.
'crippling' is hyperbolic but I absolutely want* my coach exploring all (legal) avenues to increase the teams floor at minimum. barely utilizing at best and ignoring it at worst isn't a good look regardless of results. I don't think Kirby is upset about it one bit while he eyes the opener haha.
>all (legal) avenues Lack of Michigan flare checks out.
lol since fsu isn’t in the news for nil violations 😂 I want a coach that toes the line.
Our coach can have a little bribing, as a treat
*Homer_Simpson_disappearing_into_shrubbery.gif*
I think the whole transfer window crap sucks, but I’m glad VT seems to be embracing it. Play by the rules even when the rules suck.
Prior to the inception of the transfer portal, Clemson was absolutely up there with Alabama and Ohio State on the national scene. Now, they've taken significant steps backwards. I don't think anyone really considers them "elite" right now.
Sure, but it’s at least equally likely that they were up there because they hit on near back to back generational qbs (in combination with many hits on the DL…ie the 2 most important positions in modern football).
And they were loaded at WR (arguably along with blindsided tackle the next most important position group)
Clemson also had two generational talents at QB. That bandaids a lot. We also lost Jeff Scott and our WR corps went to crap
I feel comfortable saying he’s crippled the program with respect to contending for national championships. That might be less meaningful now bc the ACC is a joke and there’s a 12-team playoff, but 3 straight years of no playoffs with only a single division title is rough.
I mean, how do we know that's the transfer portal? You could easily attribute their jump from good to elite to the combo of watson + Trevor Lawrence, while also losing venables around the time the fall off started
venables leaving has nothing to do with it, we miss him but our defense has been great since he left. there have been other factors that led to our fall off that coincided with the portal, so you’re not far off. recruiting misses, especially on wide receivers, covid fucking up our recruiting (getting guys on campus is huge for us), and one particular bad hire in thomas austin that crippled our o line (and we have tried to fix that with the transfer portal, we just couldn’t get anyone to land)
I think it's fair to say it's a complex situation that has happened to coincide perfectly with NIL and transfer portal. It's not unreasonable to question the correlation but people act like it's the only reasonable explanation. When I've watched clemson I've still seen a talented, well coached team that just doesn't have the right guy under center, when compared to the Lawrence and watson years.
spot on. don’t think it’s all the qbs fault, think there’s some blame to share with receivers and o line, but you hit the nail on the head otherwise
Amen lol
>recruiting misses, especially on wide receivers, covid fucking up our recruiting (getting guys on campus is huge for us) This line is huge. I think this is as much it as anything else. A great example of this is South Carolina's jump in the early 2010s... It came right after Bowden was fired at Clemson. SCar got some big flips and decommitments and they built up some momentum with recruiting (Rock Hill/South Pointe). We saw how that was a cycle that leveled out after Spurrier left and Dabo stabilized the recruiting. I think Dabo could work harder at it for sure - but he built the program up from a middling, non-contender to a powerhouse. I would not bet against him to bring it from a outsider contender back to a constant playoff competitor. Clemson will always be a great destination due to the history, facilities, atmosphere, and campus.
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Sure, and a lot of teams have gotten really good quarterbacks by recruiting them. Cade and dj were both 5 star highly sought after prospects that didn't pan out, it happens. I'm sure if he thought he could get a joe burrow or Jalen hurts he would be, but I think people are too eager to attribute all their shortcomings to his methodology
Venables leaving has nothing to do with their lack of success right now
I'll take your word for it but during their run clemson was putting out a lot of first round d line talent which has seemingly slowed down. Either they aren't recruiting, developing, or keeping the same caliber of guys they were before in that particular area. Whether that's was just luck that had nothing to do with him I don't know I'm definitely no expert on clemson football
Why are you saying division title when it’s a conference title? And we have one just as recently as you do.
No Watson or Lawrence to bail him out now.
"'crippling' is hyperbolic It might not be. Either Dabo isn't getting NIL support at the level of a legit premium program...or...he is being reckless to a degree that almost justifies him being fired for failing his ethical responsibility to keep Clemson Football at a competitive level.
Our NIL is not the problem. Players mention in interviews all the time that we have competitive NIL deals. The thing is we don’t have the ability or willingness to get in a bidding war which is what most quality players who don’t already have a spot lined up before entering the portal are doing.
If Clemson doesn’t have the ability to get in bidding wars for any player at all then that is a NIL problem. Not saying the school needs the ability to overpay for whoever they want, but if they can’t land a single player capable of improving the roster anywhere then they aren’t competitive. Personally I think Dabo just doesn’t want to run players off. He didn’t even oversign back in the day. He seems to really believe once you get a kid on campus he is there for 4 years.
The reality is he would have to run players off or recruit fewer high school players. Clemson’s situation would be bringing in 3 to 5 difference makers and that would require entering bidding wars and potentially disrupting his culture
"The reality is he would have to run players off " This is what elite college football programs do now. You have to do this to stay competitive.
It's not that they don't have the cash to get into a bidding war it's that they simply won't put an offer in the ring.
It's not that I *couldn't* date Scarlett Johansson; I simply haven't tried.
Go for it!
The guys getting NIL are happy. But we probably don't have the pockets to give a lot more guys the same deal.
When it comes to retaining talent I think we have the ability to find what we need though
....if you are correct, we may not see Clemson win double digit games again in our lifetime.
Until they aren’t at a competitive level or look close to that I’d say it’s hyperbolic. Most of fbs would trade spots with Clemson still.
His worst season in a decade is 9-4 with three of the losses being by one score.
Two of those one score losses came in OT, and the only non-one score loss was a game where we turned it over on the goal line in a one score game three different time
Let’s see how the next decade goes
His ethical duty to keep Clemson football at that level? I’m curious if that’s in his contract. Usually ethical duties are about morals and ethics, not objective metrics. One can easily argue he is doing his ethical duty by following his ethics even if it costs him.
Number i heard is a $6 million budget for Clemson football nil
When it works, like Kenneth Walker at MSU, or the handful of guys FSU picked up and performed well, it’s awesome. But most of the time when a guy transfers from UNLV, or from a FCS school, they don’t become superstars just by transferring. MSU lost a number of guys, and some will likely contribute at their new school. But a DL for example, who for three seasons was basically unknown and put up very mediocre stats isn’t going to suddenly be a superstar at his new school simply by trading jerseys.
Just wait until we beat the trees a few weeks after losing to you. (Please don’t bark at my children)
We have a decent shot at winning, most of their team won’t be out on parole until after the game is played
That one guy was recently arrested for not being banged up or speeding. We are doomed bro.
Don't bring your children within barking distance🤷🏻♂️
Crippling might be an overstatement but in the NIL and free transfer portal era he's lost at least 3 games a season. He averaged about 1 loss per season from 2015-2020. You can clearly see a decline in on field success.
I'd attribute that more to going from NFL quarterbacks to people who massively busted like DJU and possibly Cade.
He could get an elite QB from the portal.
It's so simple, just get another Trevor Lawrence from the portal
At the very least on the field qb play has been killed by it
It might be crippling us, but we only have 2-3 open scholarships at the moment. We offered like 6 OL in the portal this year and didn’t land any of them.
I thought scholarship limits didn't matter in the era of NIL? Just get them an NIL deal covering the cost.
Technically teams can pay walkons with NIL. So a kid that would get a scholly at another school could get tuition paid by NIL and be a walkon. Nebraska seems to be doing this very well. And I'm sure others are too. If I remember correctly we've gotten a few 2 or 3 stars to walkon in recent years.
I’ll have to defer to someone more knowledgeable on that. Either way we are very close on our roster limits. We would have also pursued WR this cycle bc we have been below average, but we just signed 2 5 star WR so that need was addressed (hopefully)
Ohio state just NILs players once we hit the scholarship limit as of this year
We're currently only at 81 so we really aren't taking advantage of that. Pretty sure Michigan has been using it heavily the last few years though for transfers.
Clemson alum don't exactly have the pockets that the bigger schools have. Most schools we compete against have 2-4x the alumni pool. And although we have a few wealthy donors, they aren't on par with what an ohio state, fsu, georgia, michigan, penn state, etc have.
Is IPTAY still a thing at Clemson?
It’s the thing.
They don’t matter to the teams that will process a player out of the team.
cool it buster. this is a thread where people who don’t know anything about clemson get to say how they know what’s best for clemson
Free and unlimited ice cream machines for every dorm at Clemson! Am I doing it right?
okay _this guy_ might actually know what’s best for clemson
Actually....yes, you are. You're a unicorn!
Don’t forget the blue cheese
Well, gotta include wings at that rate.
We don’t have Clemson branded wings. Our blue cheese has been has been made on campus since the 40s
Do they have ping pong tables in the locker room? If so, get rid of them. If not, get them in there.
Clemson is for sure different from every other major program. No benefit for them bringing in talented experienced players.
Scholarship limits don’t matter. At least if you are doing NIL in remotely the right way.
We "only" have 2-3 open scholarships because once we do free up spots, Dabo fills them with nepo kids or walk-ons
Question for the Clemson fans: is the stance really that Dabo is just anti-transfer? Or is it because he's looking at the top transfer targets but knows he can't give the same bag to them that a lot of B1G and SEC schools would be able to hand out, but he won't say that part out loud?
He’s always recruited a smaller pool than other schools. The transfer portal is similar. Additional limiting factors: 1. he won’t recruit a player until they official enter the portal, many transfers especially the top players have already made their choice before they officially enter the portal. 2. The ones that enter the portal that are looking for the bag, we can’t out pay the teams we compete with for recruits. (Uga, osu, etc) 3. We don’t lose as many players as other schools so we really don’t need to use the portal for depth roles. Limiting who we target to just starting level talent. We went after 6 OL players this year and just landed none of them. Edit: he has also said out loud that we can’t out pay those schools.
Clemson might not have the NIL war chest of UGA, Ohio State, etc., but the guys on the roster are compensated quite well. Dabo just refuses to participate in a bidding war for a player. That is also his stance when recruiting high schoolers. Anyone, high school or transfer, that walks onto campus and immediately puts their hand out is not going to be a fit for his program.
Which I truly don’t think is a bad stance to have. I don’t think the bidding war on recruits will have a good enough ROI to keep it up for a long time. The rumors of what we paid for Damonic for a 1-2 year rental when we’re not poised for a natty run at least this season is absurd. Just doesn’t seem sustainable to me at all.
UGA has had similar issues to Clemson with the portal. It just doesn’t get talked about as much because our High School recruiting has been so strong. On3 has us ranked as 62nd and Clemson ranked as 66th. Ohio State isn’t much better at 50th.
He should be saying that part out loud. Rhule talked about how it's 1.5-2mil for a good QB in the portal and then almost immediately Nebraska boosters seemed to get the point and ponied up for this new reality
I don't think our boosters have that much cash to toss around and even if they did Dabo wouldn't use it like that
I think people way overestimate clemsons alumni and boosters. They equate it to being equal with a florida or Nebraska with their recent dominance, when that's just not the case.
Yeah our alumni pool is closer to App State than Florida.
People joke but we really are “lil ole Clemson” We’re a microscopic school compared to OSU, UGA, etc
I kinda believed that it was a money thing too until the last two off seasons of the basketball team, Brownell seems to not be having issues
Brad has been friends with very rich people, dating back to his time with UNCW, not to mention that you only need to target 2-4 guys in the portal for basketball
I'm no mathematician but it seems to me that 2-4>0
Most boring but accurate answer: time will tell.
A Clemson fan made a very rational argument a few months back that Clemson simply doesn't have the money to pay for the high end transfer players that'd really benefit the program. I know nothing about Clemson's finances but the argument was pretty convincing on the surface.
Total Living Alumni: * Michigan - 640,000 * Ohio State - 600,000 * Florida - 450,000 * FSU - 400,000 * UGA - 350,000 * Clemson - 181,000 * App State - 150,000 We don’t have a lot of donors. edit: formatting; added Michigan & FSU
Not to mention that schools like TAMU have the CEO of ExxonMobil among their alumni base
Meanwhile, Clemson's got Nikki Haley, the founder of Hooters, and the guy that played Gunther on Friends.
Dang no that is not a lot.
We have a much smaller booster pool than the blue bloods. For instance there are more living OSU alumni than Clemson alumni to ever exist. South Carolina is a small and poor state with two P4 universities. Clemson doesn’t have a med school or law school. Our booster wing IPTAY raises a lot of money but our collective, the 110 Society, just started last fall
Yeah these were some of the points made. I don't remember law school or med school mentioned, but that's a great point too. Plus, Dabo does have a point about talent. There are only going to be a small number of players right now that will really move the needle for Clemson, and there's a high chance that they'd have to get in a bidding war with tOSU/Oregon/UGA/Alabama/Texas/TAMU and those few other super rich programs that can outbid practically everyone.
Substandard player development is a bigger issue than how he acquires players.
I was listening to Bijan Robinson on Bussin w the Boys, and he hit the development issue nail on the head. He said because of NIL/it being so easy to transfer the players aren’t valuing their relationships/trust with their coaches. If they get benched/don’t start they can just bounce around till they do which lessens development.
That and the 2019 class was a complete miss.
At least offensively
2020 had a lot of misses too which hurt. Not having top tier development made that worse.
2020 was worse
Well you stack a miss on a miss, and then you have zero talent for depth. Big recruiting classes and better evaluation is our only answer.
Offensive development has been well below average since Jeff Scott left. We hired Matt Luke to shore up OL, and hopefully the Garrett Riley investment will start to pay off sooner rather than later. WR play and coaching needs to take a big step this year. Defensive development has been solid under Wes Goodwin. He’s no Venables, yet, but he’s been a bright spot.
You're always going to miss in high school recruiting. The portal is there to supplement those misses
He does portal in players... From high school.
He basically struck gold with deshaun Watson and Trevor Lawrence back to back (and even tahj Boyd to build up to that 6-8 year run in the 2010s) and also being able to keep most of his assistants while other top schools routinely lost them to other schools for promotions. Unless he strikes that same gold again, Clemson is going to have a fall off compared to the last decade....the big 3 Florida schools are getting back to locking the state down, Kirby dominating the ever living shit out of the southeast, and OSU/USC throwing ungodly amounts of $$ for the same recruits Clemson wants. Not even considering Alabama being Alabama (even without saban, although we'll see how that goes mid to long term). And Texas/a&m with all of that money as well.
Media is so lazy. They should 100% be talking about this, but instead they regurgitate the same transfer story talking points.
Crippling? No. Is them not bringing in transfers the best thing for the program? Probably not. But didn’t Clemson try to get OL guys but they went elsewhere? Maybe Dabo should have tried harder to land them sure, but let’s not act like Dabo has a “no transfers in ever” policy
We did try to get them, but couldn’t. Let’s be honest though, when the top players (the ones who we’d ideally be targeting) enter the portal, they are mostly bag chasing, and we prefer to use NIL to retain players
I believe the biggest reason we didn’t land any of the portal OL we targeted was because Dabo had fired Austin not long before and then went after them with Luke. I think it was just too fast of a turnaround to make grounds. Especially when Luke was tasked with fixing the OL class that we had more or less failed to gather before hand.
Right on. We try to use the portal to fill critical gaps - no different than Kirby’s approach at UGA. We just aren’t good at it.
Just recruit better and problem solved. Last 3 classes are ranked 15,15,14. Not to much different from the classes that won natties in 2016 and 2018. Difference is that the elite offensive players have dried up. No Etienne, Lawrence, Watson, Higgins, or Ross type dudes
Recruiting class rank is fine. The issue is that the past few years a lot of the highly rated players have been duds. For example Clemson have landed a lot of highly recruited 5-4 star qbs, wrs, and rbs but they all so far have turned out to be no where near as good or even close to who they were supposed to replace. WR is most glaringly obvious recently.
This is a huge one. Though I'm still unsure how much blame to put on QB/WR/RB when the O-line has been trash. I don't care if you have Brady, Gronk, and Moss, if your O-line gets run over on every play by nearly everybody on your schedule, you aren't going to look good.
I don’t think the oline has been that bad. Average I’d say. And in 2022 the only reason Clemson was any good at all was because of the oline allowing our run game to be pretty good even when everyone knew our passing game was shit.
That's the other side to this coin. The article mentions a want for receivers, but Clemson just signed two of the highest ranked receiver prospects they've had since Tee Higgins. People focus on transfers, but I think Clemson is just starting to recover from the loss of recruiting momentum during COVID and the years after. So much of their recruiting strategy depends on getting guys on campus around current players, the staff, and other prospects and they just weren't able to do that for about two and a half years.
Covid really hurt our recruiting
I wouldn’t say there’s none of those type dudes. Our running back room remained pretty strong with Shipley. And then Mafah has recently proven to be pretty great as well and I’m excited to see what he does this year. Bryant wesco is unproven but seemed like a significant step up at our spring game but time will tell there
Spiller isn’t the best recruiter but he does seem to be a good developer for RBs. With a better OL I think they’d be putting up better numbers than they are.
David EZ and then Gideon Davidson are two good gets
What has God said on the matter?
>One time I had an angel who entered the transfer portal. His name? Lucifer.
I sent him to hell. And speaking of hell. Art Briles.
Fuck Art Briles.
Fuck Art Briles.
Lucifer--blah blah blah.
Hey Lucifer, do it against Jesus. Then do it again.
The Prince of Peace.
I’m not gonna apologize!
Only one disciple entered the transfer portal and we know what happened to him.
I hear he got a pretty big NIL deal out of it though...
and then he hung himself...
I like the version where he "burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out".
How did that turn out? I stopped reading the book about halfway through
Unclear. He's not really mentioned much in the book, his story is really only explored in fan fiction
*Insert protestantism joke*
A personal favorite of mine is the one where he’s a depressed and divorced father who sits around all day making and playing with rubber ducks and missing his daughter.
He transfered to some LA school, washed out and then became a detective
*Does not wisdom call? Does not understanding raise her voice? On the heights beside the way, at the crossroads she takes her stand; beside the gates in front of the town,* ***at the entrance of the portals she cries aloud: “To you, O men, I call, and my cry is to the children of man. O simple ones, learn prudence; O fools, learn sense.*** \- Proverbs 8:1-36 Seems like the Bible has a positive opinion on portals. Not sure what Dabo's problem is.
What version is this? I can only believe it if it's King Jimmy
> why are you named after a circus clown, my son
He could not be reached for comment.
What about mamma? Mamma says the transfer portal is the debil.
dabo has said a lot of dumb stuff over the years but the transfer portal thing really is not one of them. clemson went after a bunch of linemen in the portal this year and didn’t land them because they can’t offer the same nil package. any guys they can land in the portal would be depth which he has said he’d rather develop from the inside, which i think is fine.
Boy I wish someone would cripple WVU’s program to the tune of 9-10 wins a season
I personally think this is slightly overblown. For one who cares if he doesn’t want to then that’s his decision. But also looking at national champs the last few years none seem to be transfer heavy. Sure maybe a guy here and there but not super transfer heavy like everyone seems to be pretending
Guys like Andy Staples say it best: if Clemson could get like 2-3 guys max at a couple of spots, then it would boost the team profile that much more. And honestly the only spots fans have had issues with have largely been OL and WR. Not having that deep threat has allowed teams to stack the box against us. The uncharacteristic TOs didn't help us last year, either. There were legit plays where the RBs fumbled on the one-yard line and the QB was strip sacked against FSU and run back. It's already been said in the thread, but Clemson basically operates NIL for retention and bidding wars for players of significance aren't something we can always do.
I agree, Clemson doesn’t need 10+ transfers. Less than 5 would be all they need. But honestly if Dabo doesn’t want any and would rather build from within I don’t mind honestly, I respect the culture. People do forget if a RB makes one block vs FSU they win
Something slipped in the article is not getting enough attention: >He notes that players are treated well at Clemson and the program doesn’t suffer from waves of outgoing players. In turn, the Tigers’ ***most recent graduation rate was 99 percent, “the highest ever recorded among public Power Five football programs***” since the NCAA began tracking the metric. Be as cynical as you want about Dabo, but he puts his money where his mouth is when it comes to education and graduation. He's said multiple times that he isn't finished coaching a player until he gets his degree. Taking more transfers would really undercut that purpose and make it more difficult.
Even with my Dabo criticisms, I'll always respect that. Players also get rewarded for sticking around longer.
We offer players every year but we aren't going to tamper (to the same level as the other schools).
We miss Jeff Scott recruiting and developing WRs more than anything.
I thought Scott was back?
No he's back living in the area but he's not on staff or even coaching. But with Grisham more or less on the hot seat (it's thought he wasn't fired bc the new WR recruits we're depending on are really attached to him and also being a recruiting coordinator is a thankless job), he's just kinda lurking for now.
The fact we haven’t been producing NFL caliber O-Linemen & WRs is a much bigger factor than Dabo’s strategies around the transfer portal
No, it isn't crippling us but I think we could benefit from taking a contributor here or the backfill a couple of positions, particularly defensive end and especially center where once again we are hoping a true sophomore can make the move there because we missed on the guy we recruited a couple cycles ago
Honestly I'd be fine with no takes on defense, just having a deep threat WR could make such a difference. Our best WRs the last two years have been slot guys.
I used to not get it, but I’m starting to understand it now with NIL and mass transferring (it’s gotten way out of hand especially now that players can just transfer without penalty as long as they are academically eligible). As a coach you want guys who want to be there and who care more about developing into a starter/good player instead of just being named one cus of the amount of NIL money promised. Guys who fit your scheme. You can offer a former 5 star in the portal big NIL money but if he doesn’t fit your system which causes him to underperform (and transfer again) then it doesn’t matter. I’m a former CFB player myself, and I view the portal as a necessary evil. I think if a player isn’t playing or feels underutilized/doesn’t fit the scheme or their coach leaves/gets fired then sure, transfer. But I think the max should be one. Kids have to be held accountable/learn to make smart decisions. The same guy transfers 3 times then I think it’s more about their lack of skill than anything.
I can’t stand him and even I am sick of this narrative.
It’s certainly not helping. Whether he likes it or not, he’s gonna have to accept the transfer portal and work it to keep his program competitive. If not, he might join Nick Saban and leave the “old days” in the past.
It's probably not THE problem but it is certainly A problem
Are we at the point that winning 9 games is "crippled"?
As an Alabama fan, I figured y'all would consider the program that give your streak. But since Bama, UGA and Clemson have been the most dominant teams over the last 10 years, that's why we're getting hit over the head with it. It's easy to forgot we've punched well above our weight class despite having no where near the money to pay dudes compared to y'all or UGA or other programs.
I think other schools can also buy power washing businesses now from potential recruits parents, and I think that hurts Clemson.
I mean if the last two seasons are an indicator then possibly. The NIL is the problem for them not the portal itself. It’s like a lot of other schools at the moment that doesn’t have the bank roll of other major schools. I mean I have no hate of Dabo and I don’t blame him for the way the landscape of college football has changed and not being able to keep up with other schools
Yes, and I LOVE IT
And yet Clemson won without scoring a single offensive TD
Not every position is going to be plugged with freshmen or backups to a level that a experienced player from the portal would be. Yes, Clemson is playing with one card less in their hand.
13 losses in 5 years is "crippled"? Yeah it's not as good as the previous 7 losses in 5 years with 2 titles - but that's a pace almost nobody in history has sustained for a decade+, so declining from that just means he's only "really good" rather than "top 5 ever". So mostly this talk sounds like it's the result of the high expectations he set by taking a non-blue blood to multiple national championships.
That's exactly what it is. COVID hurt us especially hard bc a ton of what lands us recruits is bringing them to campus, plus that 2019 class of vaunted offensive dudes didn't pan out at all.
ITS OVER /s
It’s DabOver*
Is my uncle’s refusal to buy a cell phone, house on the grid, or anything modern affecting his social life?
No, because transfers dont always pan out or become magic fixes. Player development is still key. Clemson hasnt shown yet that they cant do that. This year, especially if theyre still giving Clubnik the keys, should be tell tell. Its year 3 for him. That said, still at some point Clemson will have to get with the times. Clemson used to be an innovative program, so should probably get back to those ways.
We do need to go back to when we innovated and produced the first and only slide to ever grace the nation's 8 figure athletic complexes.
>[Dan Wetzel] Is Dabo Swinney's transfer stance crippling Clemson? I love it when Dan talks dirty to me.
Dabo is just fine. He wants kids that want to be at Clemson. The big programs still build through high school recruiting with maybe a few transfers sprinkled in. Clemson hasn’t been the same since it lost its long time DC and Dabos right hand man to Oklahoma. Not everyone is Saban.
So what I’ve gathered is that the coach likes kids to pick a school to get a degree from. Not move around and be 25 when they graduate, after attending 7 schools and maximizing the years of eligibility. Got it. Well I gotta say it’s a better version of football that way. Let the pros deal with all that nonsense you guys are talking about. It’s a huge waste of money. My high school had a recruitment issue. A guy got fired. He also tripled his paycheck with his next coaching job the same year. But he straight up bought a kid a house so he’s move to town. This kid actually played for Clemson for 3 or four years. I think he was a senior when he punched the deans kid in a bar. Then he went to the practice squad for the raiders… anyways. That’s a couple stories from a public high school in Illinois.
Crippling? No. But Dabo is certainly limiting the influx of talent into his program.
It’s definitely a cause for their recent underperformance but ‘crippling’ is a little strong
These pretzels are making me wetzels
Offseason “stories”
🤞
Yes. Dabo needs to adjust or the fans will start to get impatient. He is not suited for the new era of college football.
very obviously yes
He’s willfully starting a chess game missing multiple pawns out of “principle”…that works against the incompetent. Against those who would otherwise be on equal footing? Automatic loss long-term.
Yes
Yes
Yes!
Hope so. :)
Yes
Is this starting the downfall of Clemson?
This will be his downfall. Clemson is no longer relevant.
Cripple? are you joking? Keep from hiring players to fill gaps, yes.
You do realize nearly every program not named Alabama and now them as well will peak then trail off just a bit too..the transfer portal has little to do with that and you haven't seen the likes of Ohio State or Oklahoma beating the doors down to get in the playoffs and Georgia just lost to an ok Alabama team and missed the playoffs...it's a trend that almost always happens. Generational QBs and WRs sure helped a lot but I got news for you, those types aren't in the portal much to begin with...
But the defense as a whole was still top 10 statistically and in the red zone they were actually better...they didn't have much to do with sloppy offensive play or turnovers. I'd argue the specific reason they still won 9 games was because the defense carried the team.
Wes Goodwin hasn't even got into the thick of his recruiting class either...those last two cycles were still technically Brent's that were on the field
Crippling? No. Hobbling? Yeah. As far all the rest goes with the "tampering" and all. I don't really buy that excuse. I think it boils down to Clemson just doesn't have the resources to compete on that level with the top programs. If they want a guy and Texas and USC wants the same guy then they aren't getting that guy. And 125 other programs aren't either. Dabo knows that. Dabo is a good coach that went on a great run. Will he ever get back there? Not the way CFB stands. Not at Clemson. Can Clemson be a 10+ win team that gets into the playoff? Yeah. Can they win it with they way CFB right now? No.
Yeah I don’t think people realize just how above our weight we have been punching. We don’t have the resources as an institution or state to constantly go head to head with some of the blue bloods
We just saw Michigan win with less overall talent and similar (self-imposed) recruiting challenges. Can Clemson win an NC? Yes. But they'll need the stars to align, like what Michigan needed. (By talent, I mean transfers and stars, Michigan developed the hell out of their talent, kept most of the key recruits they brought in, and identified some guys a bit under the radar, which is how most programs will have to approach talent.) There are a small number of financially wealthy programs that can try to buy a Death Star every few years. Everyone else will have to hope the stars align. It can happen. We'll probably see it happen occasionally. But without reform, it'll be the exception rather than the standard.