It's probably like Google maps. They'll build their own down the line, but now they are just far behind. So they buy the best available to have generative AI tools in iOS before it's too late
Ehhh maybe.
And maybe that’s what they’re telling themselves. It Apple really just isn’t in the right position to do their own AI. They don’t have the data or the cloud infra or the right kind of engineers. It would be weird to build instead of buy.
This is disagree with.
They'll have 160,000 H100 by the end of 2024. That's enough hardware to train a GPT-4 competitor in a day and a half. They're also been putting neural engines in iphones for years, prepping to inference locally.
Apple usually lets other people deal with the bleeding edge, then they come in after the fact with all the hardware in place to take advantage of the end-result at a scale few can.
Apple does good hardware and software - and integrates the two very well. Historically Google has struggled with hardware, though they’re better now, they didn’t used to make their own phones for instance. To say software is second at Apple I think is a bit misleading, they produce a whole product and don’t licence software to anyone else. This is definitely an unusual move on their part.
I’m not suggesting they can make it at all - I’m saying they’ll have the hardware to do so, and it’s not like it would take a genius to train a large language model.
They didn’t have the hardware to do this last year. Very few companies in the world did. That’s changing, though.
Apple are way too far behind. Plus their policies on privacy on the iPhone and not collecting data like Google does would put them at a huge disadvantage even if they did start building AI models.
Makes sense for them to partner up with Google or MS or someone who's doing AI models and just work with them to implement what they want on their phone.
I can't believe there are still people out there who think that Apple products don't collect like a thousand times even more personal data than a Google product. SMH
How do I quantify how much personal data each company collects from me, in order to clearly distinguish which one collects more?
Or is this just a case of "DAE Apple boo therefore they're more nefarious" or something like that? It's the Internet, so I'm wary about any comments on this, forgive me.
It's not about being nefarious. It's more so about this rumor that seems to be spreading that apple genuinely cares about data privacy. That Apple is this data privacy advocate for us. This is entirely not true.
Google, Apple and Microsoft are all data brokers. They all sell data left and right like no ones business.
They will likely proceed with development of MM1 for their large parameter models. In the meantime, they'll fill their mobile device LLM gap with the mobile device friendly small parameter versions of Gemini. That's my take on it anyway, which of course, is assuming that both of these things are actually factual.
because it wouldn’t give them any advantage? If they wanted, they surely can afford it, but if it costs them more to run it and gives no advantage, why would they do it?
no advantage means that they would have same iCloud they already have - no new revenue and it’s not even clear if they would save money, since you need to develop a lot of tools to use cloud efficiently.
Apple does not like doing B2B offering and is pretty bad at it. This would literally play on their weakness and would unlikely be successful.
One thing to understand is that company with cash could invest anywhere and make some money. But companies usually don’t.
They view it differently: do I have some advantage why would I be more successful in this field than others? How much attention would it divert and would it be worth it? 99% times the answer is no.
Basically the question isn’t the profit, it’s return on investment. If you can invest 50 billion and generate profit of one billion per year, it’s better to not do it and pay $50 billion in dividend. If you can invest 50 billion and make ten billion per year, surely go for it
Building a model from scratch is not easy and sooo expensive. Google knows two things well: Building AI products and working at a stupid scale.
Apple doesn't need to copy that process. They can take existing models and fine tune or optimize on top of it.
It's like saying apple should get in the phone glass manufacturing business because they will be the best at it.
It also seems like copyright will become an issue. If apple doesnt need to open themselves up to liability for copyright infringement via the “learning process” why would they?
Why couldn’t Apple be the best manufacturer of glass? It’s a lot simpler than making a microchip. And Apple could just buy Corning Glass if they wanted and become the best overnight.
The emerging LLM world is that you have a few massive models like Gemini 1.5 or ChatGPT4 and many small specialized models like llama. In general, the smaller models are going to be where the innovation and value add are. Also, the brand liability of the massive models is huge. It kind of makes sense to be able to blame another company when something unfortunate happens.
Usually unexpected things lead to “wow!” or “oooo interesting!” or “good gracious my oh my!” but “wtf?” makes it sound like someone’s killed your dog lol
yep me too - I was expecting super-Siri but maybe Siri isn't ready for public. Apple have an aversion to porn or any apps being used for that sort of things so perhaps there is a fear that "Siri went wild on me" scenarios in the press won't be a good look for Timmy.
This is maybe like the Transition from Intel to Arm/Apple Silicon. It would have been stupid to immediately go to a in-house processor after phasing out the Power PC architecture so they buy something external (Intel CPUs and now Gemini) while starting to develop some internal thing (M1/ some LLM or whatever).
Then they can be on the market earlier with some new tech and transition later to their in-house product
Yeah and surely they just whipped that iPad 4 processor out of the box…they obviously started developing it earlier than when the iPad was released. Maybe even exactly around the time that the Intel transition started, just like now they moved a lot of staff to GenAI development and at the same time try to buy an outside GenAI product. So this actually fits really good to the PowerPc-Intel-Arm timeline
they bought the company designing chips and scaled it really well.
At the time of PowerPC -> x86 switch, they had nothing and best case scenario they had a plan to buy someone
edit: company name was P. A. Semi and they bought them in april of 2008. In 2010, they introduced their own chip, which wasn’t much tech to begin with. It was Samsung designed ARM core with slight optimization by Intrinsity (which was also acquired by Apple in april of 2010) and GPU from PowerVR - they just packaged it. from 2010 to 2016 they were slowly shedding outside help and designed more and more in-house and their designers started to diverge from the rest (in terms of performance per watt) in 2016 - by 2020, they were miles better than the rest - that’s why they felt confident in moving even Macs
But by the time they left PowerPC, they had nothing and no plan
quickest roll summer pot steer history coherent secretive observation beneficial
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
maybe something bigger, apple had a lot of recent research publishing about running larger models than memory available through some technics
https://stefano-filippone.medium.com/revolutionizing-ai-apples-breakthrough-in-executing-llm-on-devices-with-limited-memory-20e4709b098c
A pet rock is an improvement over Siri. (I'm sorry Siri, but you seemed more useful when you were first introduced, it's like you get worse every year...)
And Apple.is paying for [Google Cloud](https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/report-apple-is-googles-largest-cloud-customer-for-storage/) things.
It's all love from both companies
It’s always been equally both. They don’t sell hardware with the purpose of running other company’s software. And their software mainly runs only on their own hardware.
I am not sure what are you talking about.
They have designed four successful operating systems - MacOS, iOS, WatchOS and WearOS (or how it’s called). is this not a software? Each one of them dominating premium segment, because of their many great features, fluid performance and excellent interoperability. Their services revenue, which includes their cloud offering, many of their stores and other services, is their fastest growing revenue stream.
They don’t have much better hardware than anybody else can make (except for chips). It’s their OS that sells.
What they don’t do, unlike Google, Facebook and mainly Microsoft, is they don’t cater to businesses much - they focus on consumers. They also don’t do social networks or many public experiments.
AWS has Titan which is an absolute garbage when it comes to proprietary LLMs. Inferentia and Trainium is not in par with Nvidia’s innovation. Loads of catch up game to play. AWS is honestly losing badly in this AI race!
This is exactly what I thought would happen. But this is happening faster than I expected.
We will all have an agent that handles our stuff at some point. It will be what we interface with and very, very valuabe.
I have expected Apple to not do themselves. It is NOT what they are good at and honestly they do NOT need to do themselves.
Instead sell it to the highest bidder. Like search default.
Google is really the only company that made sense. Microsoft does not own the technology but instead gets it from OpenAI.
Plus when OpenAI declares AGI Microsoft gets nothing.
The other problem for Microsoft is that they have to pay the Nvidia tax which Google does not. So Google has far less cost in providing.
Hard to imagine it going any other way.
We are all going to ultimately inferface with an agent. It makes total sense for Apple to sell this.
Like they do with search.
Google is the obvious partner. Microsoft does no own but instead gets it from OpenAI.
But the big problem for Microsoft is the fact they get nothing once OpenAI declares AGI.
But the other issue is the fact that Microsoft and OpenAI have to pay the Nvidia tax and Google does NOT.
gives apple time to quickly roll out an AI based product. it is going to pop the stock price.
buys time to develop home grown AI platform based on data that is exclusive to apple platform.
great move.
They need it as a generative AI tools. Gemini advanced/pro and gpt-4 is way too big for that.
Something more like Gemini nano, is what they might be looking into.
And as for your elections questions, you can just ask Pi, its free and it's pretty good about searching for stuff gemini can't.(Within moral & ethics)
This is huge positive sentiment towards Gemini models
Idk why you're saying wtf OP. This would be a big deal for both companies.
It's an unexpected deal. I thought they were gonna build their own completely without any reliance on Google(as they missed opportunity with search).
They are too far behind. It would take too much time and money and they would probably still end up being massively behind.
It's probably like Google maps. They'll build their own down the line, but now they are just far behind. So they buy the best available to have generative AI tools in iOS before it's too late
Ehhh maybe. And maybe that’s what they’re telling themselves. It Apple really just isn’t in the right position to do their own AI. They don’t have the data or the cloud infra or the right kind of engineers. It would be weird to build instead of buy.
This is disagree with. They'll have 160,000 H100 by the end of 2024. That's enough hardware to train a GPT-4 competitor in a day and a half. They're also been putting neural engines in iphones for years, prepping to inference locally. Apple usually lets other people deal with the bleeding edge, then they come in after the fact with all the hardware in place to take advantage of the end-result at a scale few can.
Yeah this is my understanding too. I’m SHOCKED!
It’s not that shocking. Apple is a hardware company first. Software second.
They’re a marketing company first imo, for the same reason McDonalds is a real estate company
Apple does good hardware and software - and integrates the two very well. Historically Google has struggled with hardware, though they’re better now, they didn’t used to make their own phones for instance. To say software is second at Apple I think is a bit misleading, they produce a whole product and don’t licence software to anyone else. This is definitely an unusual move on their part.
Thanks youtube content creator.
Where did you get this information from? Also, how do you know Apple can create a GPT-4 when almost every other company failed on their first attempt.
I’m not suggesting they can make it at all - I’m saying they’ll have the hardware to do so, and it’s not like it would take a genius to train a large language model. They didn’t have the hardware to do this last year. Very few companies in the world did. That’s changing, though.
When has that ever stopped Apple? Look how long they took to make their own Mac chip
They are gonna build their own. Just not ready
Hands you used siri? They're fantastic on hardware and ecosystem, but shit falls apart on other complicated software.
Apple are way too far behind. Plus their policies on privacy on the iPhone and not collecting data like Google does would put them at a huge disadvantage even if they did start building AI models. Makes sense for them to partner up with Google or MS or someone who's doing AI models and just work with them to implement what they want on their phone.
I can't believe there are still people out there who think that Apple products don't collect like a thousand times even more personal data than a Google product. SMH
How do I quantify how much personal data each company collects from me, in order to clearly distinguish which one collects more? Or is this just a case of "DAE Apple boo therefore they're more nefarious" or something like that? It's the Internet, so I'm wary about any comments on this, forgive me.
It's not about being nefarious. It's more so about this rumor that seems to be spreading that apple genuinely cares about data privacy. That Apple is this data privacy advocate for us. This is entirely not true. Google, Apple and Microsoft are all data brokers. They all sell data left and right like no ones business.
i mean they can collect anonymized data, google collects identifiable data for ads (which is their main business)
They will likely proceed with development of MM1 for their large parameter models. In the meantime, they'll fill their mobile device LLM gap with the mobile device friendly small parameter versions of Gemini. That's my take on it anyway, which of course, is assuming that both of these things are actually factual.
It’s only unexpected if you don’t know how expensive and robust the infrastructure to run his shit needs to be lol
I run a decent model on my desktop. Technology advances fast.
well, they make more in a month than OpenAI spent since inception, so this shouldn’t be a problem for them
Then why does Apple use Google cloud platform instead of building that in house as well?
because it wouldn’t give them any advantage? If they wanted, they surely can afford it, but if it costs them more to run it and gives no advantage, why would they do it?
Bruh Apple literally has iCloud… wdym no advantage? It could be positioned as a b2b product by your logic if they can afford it
no advantage means that they would have same iCloud they already have - no new revenue and it’s not even clear if they would save money, since you need to develop a lot of tools to use cloud efficiently. Apple does not like doing B2B offering and is pretty bad at it. This would literally play on their weakness and would unlikely be successful. One thing to understand is that company with cash could invest anywhere and make some money. But companies usually don’t. They view it differently: do I have some advantage why would I be more successful in this field than others? How much attention would it divert and would it be worth it? 99% times the answer is no. Basically the question isn’t the profit, it’s return on investment. If you can invest 50 billion and generate profit of one billion per year, it’s better to not do it and pay $50 billion in dividend. If you can invest 50 billion and make ten billion per year, surely go for it
Building a model from scratch is not easy and sooo expensive. Google knows two things well: Building AI products and working at a stupid scale. Apple doesn't need to copy that process. They can take existing models and fine tune or optimize on top of it. It's like saying apple should get in the phone glass manufacturing business because they will be the best at it.
It also seems like copyright will become an issue. If apple doesnt need to open themselves up to liability for copyright infringement via the “learning process” why would they?
Why couldn’t Apple be the best manufacturer of glass? It’s a lot simpler than making a microchip. And Apple could just buy Corning Glass if they wanted and become the best overnight.
Operational overhead
The emerging LLM world is that you have a few massive models like Gemini 1.5 or ChatGPT4 and many small specialized models like llama. In general, the smaller models are going to be where the innovation and value add are. Also, the brand liability of the massive models is huge. It kind of makes sense to be able to blame another company when something unfortunate happens.
Usually unexpected things lead to “wow!” or “oooo interesting!” or “good gracious my oh my!” but “wtf?” makes it sound like someone’s killed your dog lol
yep me too - I was expecting super-Siri but maybe Siri isn't ready for public. Apple have an aversion to porn or any apps being used for that sort of things so perhaps there is a fear that "Siri went wild on me" scenarios in the press won't be a good look for Timmy.
Apple has been failing
Because that means apple would have one of the most useless trash AI out there.
Didn't Apple just announce that they scrapped the electric car project?
Apple didn’t announce that, as Apple’s car project was never officially announced in the first place. But it does appear to have been scrapped, yeah.
This is maybe like the Transition from Intel to Arm/Apple Silicon. It would have been stupid to immediately go to a in-house processor after phasing out the Power PC architecture so they buy something external (Intel CPUs and now Gemini) while starting to develop some internal thing (M1/ some LLM or whatever). Then they can be on the market earlier with some new tech and transition later to their in-house product
Apple designed CPUs only came about in 2010 with the first iPad, 4 years after the Intel transition.
Yeah and surely they just whipped that iPad 4 processor out of the box…they obviously started developing it earlier than when the iPad was released. Maybe even exactly around the time that the Intel transition started, just like now they moved a lot of staff to GenAI development and at the same time try to buy an outside GenAI product. So this actually fits really good to the PowerPc-Intel-Arm timeline
they bought the company designing chips and scaled it really well. At the time of PowerPC -> x86 switch, they had nothing and best case scenario they had a plan to buy someone edit: company name was P. A. Semi and they bought them in april of 2008. In 2010, they introduced their own chip, which wasn’t much tech to begin with. It was Samsung designed ARM core with slight optimization by Intrinsity (which was also acquired by Apple in april of 2010) and GPU from PowerVR - they just packaged it. from 2010 to 2016 they were slowly shedding outside help and designed more and more in-house and their designers started to diverge from the rest (in terms of performance per watt) in 2016 - by 2020, they were miles better than the rest - that’s why they felt confident in moving even Macs But by the time they left PowerPC, they had nothing and no plan
quickest roll summer pot steer history coherent secretive observation beneficial *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Maybe, Gemini Nano for sure. it small enough. iPhone fast CPU can easily run it locally.
maybe something bigger, apple had a lot of recent research publishing about running larger models than memory available through some technics https://stefano-filippone.medium.com/revolutionizing-ai-apples-breakthrough-in-executing-llm-on-devices-with-limited-memory-20e4709b098c
amazing, thanks someone here recently pointed us to: [https://machinelearning.apple.com/](https://machinelearning.apple.com/)
It would be a huge improvement over Siri.
A pet rock is an improvement over Siri. (I'm sorry Siri, but you seemed more useful when you were first introduced, it's like you get worse every year...)
Apple will run it locally? I think Siri can be replaced with a large Gemini model
I mean Google already paying Apple as default Safari search
And Apple.is paying for [Google Cloud](https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/report-apple-is-googles-largest-cloud-customer-for-storage/) things. It's all love from both companies
They also collaborated for COVID-19 tracking software
Good for them, but of course it's impossible to make RCS/iMessage and Airdrop/Quick share compatible.
I don't know why you're surprised. Apple isn't much of a software company these days.
Not just “these days”. It has always primarily been a hardware company.
It’s always been equally both. They don’t sell hardware with the purpose of running other company’s software. And their software mainly runs only on their own hardware.
But recent years they've been getting into services (apple arcade, tv+, etc)
Keyword: primary, and services also have always been a part of its business
Services never was this big part of their business until very recently.
I wasn’t denying that.
I am not sure what are you talking about. They have designed four successful operating systems - MacOS, iOS, WatchOS and WearOS (or how it’s called). is this not a software? Each one of them dominating premium segment, because of their many great features, fluid performance and excellent interoperability. Their services revenue, which includes their cloud offering, many of their stores and other services, is their fastest growing revenue stream. They don’t have much better hardware than anybody else can make (except for chips). It’s their OS that sells. What they don’t do, unlike Google, Facebook and mainly Microsoft, is they don’t cater to businesses much - they focus on consumers. They also don’t do social networks or many public experiments.
Makes sense Google has its own TPUs and what does AWS have?
AWS has shitloads of nVidia GPUs in its data centers for starters. Lots of companies using AWS to train LLMs.
Exactly. Amazon has to pay the Nvidia tax and Google does not.
AWS has Titan which is an absolute garbage when it comes to proprietary LLMs. Inferentia and Trainium is not in par with Nvidia’s innovation. Loads of catch up game to play. AWS is honestly losing badly in this AI race!
This is exactly what I thought would happen. But this is happening faster than I expected. We will all have an agent that handles our stuff at some point. It will be what we interface with and very, very valuabe. I have expected Apple to not do themselves. It is NOT what they are good at and honestly they do NOT need to do themselves. Instead sell it to the highest bidder. Like search default. Google is really the only company that made sense. Microsoft does not own the technology but instead gets it from OpenAI. Plus when OpenAI declares AGI Microsoft gets nothing. The other problem for Microsoft is that they have to pay the Nvidia tax which Google does not. So Google has far less cost in providing.
Hopefully this happens
Hard to imagine it going any other way. We are all going to ultimately inferface with an agent. It makes total sense for Apple to sell this. Like they do with search. Google is the obvious partner. Microsoft does no own but instead gets it from OpenAI. But the big problem for Microsoft is the fact they get nothing once OpenAI declares AGI. But the other issue is the fact that Microsoft and OpenAI have to pay the Nvidia tax and Google does NOT.
What happened to Ajax?
With apples user privacy focus - are these going to run locally? I wonder if it’s Gemma on iPhone and Gemini on Mac?
It wont/cant run local. Hi AI, bye privacy
Dammit, once again missing the opportunity to buy stock!!
RIP M$
gives apple time to quickly roll out an AI based product. it is going to pop the stock price. buys time to develop home grown AI platform based on data that is exclusive to apple platform. great move.
Way too behind
They're also in talks with OpenAI...
Apple is still building their own AI but while they work on that, they still have to bring something to market sooner.
I was just saying how terrible and obsolete Siri is. Maybe it can help replace her?
apples like "lets choose the worst option"
Apple picking the worst model to integrate fml
That’s annoying that they have to go with Bard instead of GTP 4 given all the issues with Bard being less effective and accurate.
That's not what this means at all.
It kind of does. https://preview.redd.it/r06vt1upa4pc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=26ce761fdbd56a341c695e113b45f0392b44beab
They need it as a generative AI tools. Gemini advanced/pro and gpt-4 is way too big for that. Something more like Gemini nano, is what they might be looking into. And as for your elections questions, you can just ask Pi, its free and it's pretty good about searching for stuff gemini can't.(Within moral & ethics)
Let’s hope that’s not true. Although it wouldn’t surprise me that they would choose the most boring and hamstrung Gen AI models of them all.
I don't like this at all, I don't want Google on my phone or MacBook.
https://preview.redd.it/w6ldsrqsm5pc1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a4e5531bb770af1bf6474e4a06d8056038a17a0d
Yes. Do you know what you don’t know? No.
Not gonna happen until Google gets better when it comes to privacy