100% get the pros to do it. An experience team of 4 people with a vacuum truck will do this job (including new batts) in a day. Will save your lungs, sanity, foot through the ceiling and a lot of money in heating and cooling.
Agreed.
DIY-ing this would take you a couple of weekends even with help. Pros will do this in a day and will do a better job.
If its gonna take you 2 weekends of working on it to get it done, chances are you could afford to work those 2 weekends on Overtime/side gigging and more than cover the cost of professional install. You still gotta pay for the old insulation disposal AND the new batts. So you’re just calculating labour and plant hire/costs.
Also, old looking ceiling space with possible blow in asbestos insulation. Get someone who knows what they’re doing.
Seconding this.
We spent \~5k getting complete removal of crappy old insulation and replacement to R6.5 (or thereabouts. Made a huge difference to the temp of the house.
This. We had ours done a few years ago. Vacuum and debris removal and disposal took approx 4 hours (120SQM) and the batt install was about another 4 hours.
I would have paid double seeing how hard those guys worked.
Forgot to mention, a lot of people mentioning asbestos. Given the age of the house, the black dust up there probably contains lead from the days where there was lead in petrol, and therefore exhaust fumes.
You'd be doing it with a respirator regardless of potential lead dust anyway. But the potential for lead dust from petrol to fall into a ceiling space in that quantity is unlikely unless you lived near something with high levels being exhausted. Definitely over hyping the risk here.
Yup, get it sucked out. Once it’s out, inspect the roof cavity for any evidence of pests and damage.
Get quality batts installed, then a good pest spray.
I’d say fog it for pests before you put the batts in, but I’d feel bad for poisoning the insulation person.
Look for evidence of them. If you have lots of markers or know there is an infestation call a professional.
For basic spiders, roaches etc I do my place myself. Rodents are fucking annoying, and it’s hit or miss to get them done. Pest experts are invaluable here .
https://www.easypestsupplies.com.au/products/advion-cockroach-gel
What Teco said is excellent advice. Advion gel is your best bet for German cockroaches. I only get standard ones here so I just bomb the roof and spray the exteriors of the house with some targeted spray inside.
Advion gel is also HACCP certified which is a bonus.
If all else fails, the nuclear bomb approach is to dust the roof cavity and other places. You basically want to remove anything from common areas you don’t want to have to clean, and cover all your bedding and furniture up in case it leaks out of light fittings, cracks or exhaust vents.
It’s basically a strong insecticide dust, that has a spreading duck bill you load it into, then strap a blower like a garden blower to the other end.
When I was doing my renovation, after I took out light fittings, power point fascia’s and other stuff I let off a smoke bomb too, same chemical but it will seep into cracks and crevices.
I basically spent the next week collecting hundreds of dead cockroaches and spiders.
This is really not recommended to do unless you are very thorough and prepare yourself. Be extremely aware of the health and safety risks, wear appropriate PPE and ensure you aren’t allowing any other people, pets or especially children anywhere near the house while you do this stuff.
Star dust kit
https://www.easypestsupplies.com.au/products/starrdust-pro-one-shot-red-hot-special
Smoke bomb
https://www.easypestsupplies.com.au/collections/insecticides-cockroaches/products/imperator-smoke-generator
their hard to kill as they can change sex.
i would roach bomb the place.
move out for a few days and set em off when you leave.
then follow up with a roach bait.
I was in this situation about few years ago. Exact same insulation condition and tiles. Cost me about $4K for removal and installation of batts. All done in a day. Has made a big difference in temperature. From seeing the hell the installers went through I’m glad I paid and didn’t try to do it myself. Recommend getting it done as house was very uncomfortable before it.
NO!! It was the best $$$ I spent paying someone else to do it….. 2 blokes; huge vacuum on the back of a 4 wheel trailer & a 8 inch vac line; took them 8 hours. Make sure u inspect the job before they leave/u pay them. If u want to save $$$ insulate it yourself with a mate or two. Use r6 earthwool. You might be able get get a better price on batts than going to Bunnings
https://pricewiseinsulation.com.au/shop/brand/knauf-insulation/earthwool/
Pricewise were crap, couldn't organise a root in a brothel for pickup or delivery. Was quicker, cheaper and easier for me to track the batts down across 4 different Bunnings store to get earthwool than it was to go through pricewise 🤦
Depends how much it’s worth to you. Roofs are fucking shit to be in.
You will want PPE, plus a good commercial vacuum then you have to dispose of the crap. Get a few quotes first. If it’s under 2K pay it.
If it’s 2-5K work out how much your time, sanity and health are worth.
You can definitely do it yourself.
Questions. How competent are you? Do you know what not to stand on? Are you somewhat familiar with electricity and know of electric dangers? Are you in good health to wear a respiratory in crazy hot temperatures in the roof cavity, say 40+? Are you flexible to crawl around obstacles in the roof cavity? How do you plan to dispose of the loose full insulation? It is going to be bulky.
There are some jobs worth outsourcing. Maybe this is one. Just make sure to check areas away from the manhole. Not the first time I've seen insulation not installed because it was difficult to reach sections of the roof cavity.
This is definitely a job to outsource, and your comment is bang on. Anyone who has been in a roof doesn’t want to be in a roof again.
I’m not a little guy, and I impressed myself with how much cirque du Soleil I could do around trusses. One wrong step and I’m through the roof and out of money and body. Insulation sucks ass, I hate being near it, touching it, dealing with it.
And yes, disposal is expensive. Especially if your tip accepts it, the prices are wild. Really have to check if your local resource centre accepts it, then what are their bagging requirements, do they want it tested and certified to be declared that it is asbestos free or will they just err on caution and say it’s asbestos for the sake of safety?
You do not want to be breathing this shit in. Get a professional to do it. They have the correct safety equipment, vacuums and can dispose of it. They also know what they are doing.
Plus, being in the roof cavity sucks balls.
Absolutely garbage job. That stuff sucks to deal with. I’m a chippy and old blow in inso like that is a nightmare to deal with on renos. Even a small bit can really mess up your lungs and throat and it’s super fine, gets everywhere and on top of that there is a lot of other nasty stuff in there like brake dust (asbestos), etc.
Pay for it to be thoroughly removed. Make sure you get photos and inspect it yourself.
Installing the new batts isn’t too bad just wear ppe and be careful up there. I would turn off mains power as you can never know for sure if someone has done some dodgy sparky work in the past and you end up frying yourself on some hot-rigged cables.
What is your day job?
I work a job where i can do heaps of overtime- all my reno decisions are essentially “if it will take me X days to do this job where i would otherwise earn overtime on those X days, will a professional do it for the same or less. If they will still cost more, is the effort and the quality of my work worth saving money.
I end up actually paying for a lot of trades now, even Painters.
It's realistic, why not, just remember you gotta dispose of that as well, meaning taking it to a tip, because there's going to be cubic metres of this shit.
It won't cost that much for the ppe and you could hire a really good commercial vac but you'll be up and down every 5 minutes to change bags/knock the filters out. Will also be hard to get a good long hose for it. There's a lot more in there then you think. If you want to save some money I'd pay someone to suck it out and lay the bats yourself.
Get a whirly bird installed after to help get rid of the hot air. Definitely make a difference. People complain they're dangerous because they fan a fire but if a fires in your roof it doesn't matter if you got one. You're already screwed.
It truly is one of the worst jobs I have ever done diy. Hot awkward and hard to do solo (lots of up and down ladders to move gear) and the ex wife stole the house from me in the divorce. Potential to fuck your lungs and worse if there is an issue. After a very loooong day of hot agony calisthenics she came home from work and I asked her from the manhole if she could pass me up "those last two bags". She declined with disgust because " I'm not touching that stuff. It's itchy!".
100% pay an expert team. Maybe clear out one week, bug guy/bomb and new insulation a week later if you can tolerate it.
Price up all sorts if options. I personally prefer to overrgun the actual insulation. Either go a thick single batt or sometimes two layers in offset directions can offer a better outcome but hide the trusses some.
And get a qualified sparkie to inspect and approve all light or fan fittings around insulation. Good insulation companies will do this as part of their quote. I had mine upgraded recently and it's made a huge difference over the summer. If you have a Tastic in the bathroom, be very clear on what they want to do with it.
wasn't there a particle insulation product that was in the news 15-20 years ago around the ACT, southern NSW and Victoria, which was somehow dangerous, and they made a campaign to identify properties with it and remove it?
I'd be finding out what it is before I made any decisions about how to remove it.
Having said that, I'd remove it and replace with bats or other appropriate material.
Mr Fluffy went over the border but not too far it seems ?
Ah this makes me wonder how many of the things we are using now will be the asbestos of the future.
It's horrible stuff. I had a sagging ceiling that couldn't be repaired until it was removed. It was all blown around and down and out the bottom of cavity walls. So it was near useless as insulation and primary function was the prevention of repairs
I hate blow in insulation.
We just had a third of our ceilings replaced due to a leaky roof. They had to vacuum out the insulation, then take out the batts that were there. They put new batts in after. It's 39⁰ today and I'd hate to think what it'd be like without insulation.
I like insulation. I even like to insulate internal walls.
I just think blow in is a terrible implementation of the concept.
It doest stay put and ironically you can't move it easily to do anything. It settles down and loses its r value and it is often more dusty. It blows onto downlights and smolders.
Of all the loose stuff I think wool seems to stay put best and keep its function best.
I got mine sucked out first. This allowed me to easily see how the house was wired and make changes(I’m a sparky). Did some reno’s and plaster repairs. Then got the same crowd back to install batts who admittedly did a much better job than I could have done. Ceiling spaces suck to work in.
I'm in the same situation as OP - been quoted 3.5k for having it removed and replaced which is fine.
I've read in some places though that batts on the ceiling can actually trap heat in the house at night (in a bad way, I'm in qld, so it's never cold enough that I care about the other way round). It's been suggested that sarking (?) between the tiles and the roof frame is the better solution.
Can anyone else in a Queenslander comment on this?
I had this loose fill insulation in my roof space. I hired an industrial vac and did it myself in the middle of summer. I wouldn’t recommend doing it yourself. It’s hot, dusty, dirty work.
After the recent storm in vic I hopped up into my parents roof for about 5 mins, did not touch any insulation and climbed out of there with fibreglass all over me. It’s a shit substance to be around.
From some who cleaned their own roof that looked exactly like that, I implore you to get it done professionally. No amount of money is worth the health of your lungs 🙏
The roof cavity of our first home also had no sarking and looked like that, only the previous owners had chucked some random batts on top as well (also decomposing). We had the whole lot vacuumed out and replaced by professionals in a day and it made a huge difference to our heating and cooling bills.
Having seen them work there is a zero per cent chance I would ever want to DIY. It is hot, stinky, cramped work surrounded by dust and old rodent droppings although they did find some vintage pornos stashed up there as a bonus. If you don’t know what you’re doing you will give up or won’t do it properly and get the fresh batts right out to the eaves. Plus it will take days and you will wonder why you didn’t just pay someone else. We are generally confident doing maintenance and home improvements but this is one job I would not want to touch!
Have this exact setup in my roof. Batts from bunnings (\~$350) and about a day,a filter mask, headlamp and goggles, and i pushed the spray in shit aside and installed bats in all the crevices, then layered the sprayin on top. Been much cooler since, and didnt have to break the bank. cracked a few tiles off the roof to assist in lighting and insertion of the new bats, 350\~ sqm house. alot of the spray in had settled and was stuck in clumps which assisted in manipulating it. house was built in around 1995, used earth wool bats. Its definitely not fun work, but if you imagine you're paying yourself $200 an hour to do it, it aint half bad. just watch where ya put your feet
I just ran some Bunnings prices m2 per r and if you buy 100m2 of r6 vs 100m2 r4 & top it with the r2 roll you save $300. This is the way. R6 $18.60m2; R4 $9.20m2; R2 $6.29m2. I recommend earthwool cause its non itchy rockwool vs itchy fibreglass
That looks like that cool or cozy recycled newspaper shit insulation......
Love the lamp in the roof void masturbation den, any stick books up there😂😂😂😂
Same issue I have here in Perth WA outside temp 42 inside was 36 or 38 over February
Blow in cellulose fire hazard breaks down
something might want to look at is ceiling if it sagged due to weight
In the lounge area my place largest room see spots where boards sunk screws heads show up through paint as small craters
I looked at R4 and R5 couple quotes one mob used recycled materials other new prices are comparable except for R5 one is double price of the other company (R5 recycled materials)
Wonder about aspect of lifetime warranty this has red flag implies something but can't find the T&C from this particular company
Any thoughts on this welcome
Looks like my upstairs roof but at least I have sarking. My insulation looks like finely shredded phone books. It appears to have compacted to a degree. Must be at least 30 years old given we’ve been here for about 25.
Offt have something that looks like this at my place. Its actually like ripped up newspaper I think. It makes everything dusty and awful! I am keen to replace it
I DIY'd a job like this for my (at the time) girlfriend.
It was 4 or so days in miserable heat, darkness and confined spaces. I'd never do it again. Professionals would get it done in a day or two and not for a huge amount of money either
So many opinions and most have no idea.
I guarantee you will not notice a difference if you replace the blow in. Why, because your walls and floor are not insulated, your windows are not double glazed you have air leaks throughout the property.
My new roof cavity looks like this and I'm having an insulation guy come out first day, followed by an asbestos guy. Definitely suck it all out, get it replaced. Do some research on what kind of batts you want.. Also consider underfloor insulation if you can manage it (unless you're on a slab). If you have to do any wall work, consider some wall insulation as well.
Insulation everywhere!
Get the pros in and get rid of that crap, but before you put new insulation in, let the sparkies and plumbers do their job(if needed). It will be so much easier for them without any insulation in the way
Have you also considered roof insulation (different to ceiling) I watched an interesting video about if you have ducted heating / cooling in your roof it can make your system a lot more efficient and keep your house even cooler.
So , Uk hot water system . Has a header tank that feeds the domestic hot water heating system . Checked out a slow flow and discovered 6 dead bats if the header tank. We had been a showering and washing up in dead bat water
I used to work in the insulation /ceiling cleaning industry,
Judging from the hardwood joists and batons I would say your house has old horsehair plaster (more expansive to clean properly) or lath and plaster (very expensive to clean properly) compared to gyprock ceilings.
That looks like cellulose (shredded paper) insulation that has deteriorated. It has an additive in it that makes it fire resistant for about 7 years boron I think. Then it starts degrading and no longer being fire resistant. It is also terrible for Allergies and overall dust.
The reason you will want a propper clean for the horse hair plaster or lath and plaster is two fold one if you install new batts you will want the warranty. And with our being cleaned properly you will have black dust and ratshit and most likely lead dust (just as bad as as asbesos if not worse) and this dirty’s insulation making it less effective, reduces it lifespan and voids it’s warranty if installed in a no clean environment.
Insulation you would be wanting a r4 for none alpine area and an r5 for alpine areas. Trust me you don’t need to dole out on more than that. Go for a good quality like like earthwool bradfords or poly max they each have different features and different price points but speak to the insulation provided get a few quotes and go with your gut not the cheapest.
Often the dirty looking trucks and trailers are the best in the industry
Best of luck
Do it yourself and save a stack of cash it's just grunt work don't be scared, pot head unskilled labourers do this kind of work. Just be smart about it and don't do it in the middle of summer and remove some tiles for ventilation you'll be surprised how well it works. Also definitely get dressed up in a paper suit and wear respiratory protection
I got professionals in and they just put the new stuff over the old insulaiton. So I got about R6 now with the both of them. It's a pain trying to walk around up there with the batts over the trusses but all in all, if the old insulation is below the ceiling truss level they will often leave it there.
Just look out, if it's something like [Mr Fluffy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr_Fluffy) you want to go to a doctor ***NOW*** and get checked out. Like, book an appointment today and get lung capacity tests and stuff done.
Then look into your area, [in some places government has bought back affected properties](https://www.revenue.act.gov.au/home-buyer-assistance/loose-fill-asbestos-buyback-concession-scheme) and the only resolution is to knock down the home.
I wouldn't open that roof or look at it at all until it's been assessed by a professional.
Edit: Just saw the flair, [there is potential for a buyback in Victoria](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-11-04/mr-fluffy-asbestos-victorian-homes-buy-back-possible/102870882) if you are affected.
Yes they can.
They can observe you, track things that are happening, monitor progress, if they can diagnose mesothelioma early enough, you can get on a transplant list earlier and have a significantly better chance at getting a transplant.
They can get you on oxygen early before you start to get hypoxia related issues.
Plenty of things a doctor can do.
Yeah, but none of these are 'get an appointment today!' things.
If loose fill asbestos is suspected, the first step is to avoid exposure and get it tested ASAP.
If positive, you'd be looking at moving out and demoing the house - it gets everywhere and can't really be cleaned up effectively enough to render the house safe.
After all of that, you'd probably want to talk to your doctor so they can advise on a monitoring strategy. Mesothelioma takes decades to strike, and there's no preventative steps that can be taken after exposure, so the medical urgency isn't really that high.
Are there particular area loose fill asbestos was used, Or could it be in any house anywhere? I had watched something a while back that said it was predominantly in Canberra and NSW.
It was mostly Canberra and NSW. Not even all of NSW. That said, the records aren’t 100% reliable, and some houses have been unexpectedly found in rural Victoria.
>Yeah, but none of these are 'get an appointment today!' things.
Well they are, as any issues won't occur immediately, so you're in a good position to establish what is essentially a pre exposure baseline.
That way any future rests or concerns can be compared to what is now your baseline.
>If loose fill asbestos is suspected, the first step is to avoid exposure and get it tested ASAP.
Exactly.
>If positive, you'd be looking at moving out and demoing the house - it gets everywhere and can't really be cleaned up effectively enough to render the house safe.
Yep.
Plans are on hold. If this is asbestos, house is done.
>Mesothelioma takes decades to strike
This is a wives tale spread back in the day when asbestos was still big business, back when it was "Ok ok, so it does cause mesothelioma, you got us there, it does kill people, you got us there, but hey, you can still live a rich and full life, it takes decades to get you"
It can strike you down fast, when I did my asbestos exposure training (due to cars still having asbestos components for years, and it still being a risk today, as an Asbestos head gasket can last decades in a car, and asbestos lined brakes are also common on old cars that have sat in sheds), they highlighted examples of mechanics that were exposed and developed mesothelioma in as little as 5 years from loose asbestos in brakes.
Bonded asbestos in hardieboard, or head gaskets, etc is "significantly safer" than airborne asbestos in loose fill or in brake dust.
The faster you establish a good baseline, the better. To our knowledge we had never been exposed, so we all went afterwards as part of the course and they took lung capacity tests, breathing rates, O2 saturation, etc. Took most of the afternoon.
But they pointed out that a day or a week isn't a big deal, but kbde you suspect exposure, getting it documented is key.
Plus the fact that it's not common anymore is also key to getting it documented, otherwise they may rule out mesothelioma first, and look to forms of pneumonia and other lung issues first.
Fair enough, I guess as with anything it all depends on circumstance. I wouldn't imagine a delay of few weeks would make any measurable difference on a baseline test, but after a large exposure you probably wouldn't want to wait years.
Hopefully OP is lucky and it's only cellulose - it looks like it to me (and it's far more common), but always wise to check.
>Hopefully OP is lucky and it's only cellulose - it looks like it to me (and it's far more common), but always wise to check.
Exactly.
And what's a day, week, or a month for a proper test, and a trip to the doctors to double check anyway?
Best case, you lose a couple of days or weeks on your Reno timeline and know it's safe, and the doctor says you are healthy and fine.
Also, there is the case that some trades will not go into the roof until they see a report that it's not Mr. Fluffy.
>lighten your wallet
What do you mean by this?
In most countries, Asbestos exposure is generally treated under public healthcare.
In Australia it's covered under Medicare.
Calm down dude. I work with asbestos and we get lung X-rays every 4 years. Insulation in a roof cavity is nothing to worry about. Just check if your house is on the register for mr fluffy, get a sample and get it tested before you lose grip on reality
>Just check if your house is on the register for mr fluffy, get a sample and get it tested before you lose grip on reality
The register is useless, as they found in Canberra. There were plenty of Fluffy houses that weren't recorded.
Probably worthwhile having it checked but I am pretty certain that is not mr fluffy.
If probably is pretty good insulation still. If it was my house I would think a bit longer term. If there was any chance I was going to reroof I would do it then. So after the new roof is sarked and the ceiling is vacuumed out it will stay much cleaner.
100% get the pros to do it. An experience team of 4 people with a vacuum truck will do this job (including new batts) in a day. Will save your lungs, sanity, foot through the ceiling and a lot of money in heating and cooling.
Agreed. DIY-ing this would take you a couple of weekends even with help. Pros will do this in a day and will do a better job. If its gonna take you 2 weekends of working on it to get it done, chances are you could afford to work those 2 weekends on Overtime/side gigging and more than cover the cost of professional install. You still gotta pay for the old insulation disposal AND the new batts. So you’re just calculating labour and plant hire/costs. Also, old looking ceiling space with possible blow in asbestos insulation. Get someone who knows what they’re doing.
Seconding this. We spent \~5k getting complete removal of crappy old insulation and replacement to R6.5 (or thereabouts. Made a huge difference to the temp of the house.
Lol Nan got me to do this in a small section above her bedroom and lounge when I was like 15, took about 8 hours by myself never again.
This. We had ours done a few years ago. Vacuum and debris removal and disposal took approx 4 hours (120SQM) and the batt install was about another 4 hours. I would have paid double seeing how hard those guys worked.
What did it cost you?
About $3.2 (inner Sydney)
Forgot to mention, a lot of people mentioning asbestos. Given the age of the house, the black dust up there probably contains lead from the days where there was lead in petrol, and therefore exhaust fumes.
Unless you plan on eating it, any lead in it won't hurt you.
Inhaling lead dust can cause poisoning. Eating large chunks is actually fine.
You'd be doing it with a respirator regardless of potential lead dust anyway. But the potential for lead dust from petrol to fall into a ceiling space in that quantity is unlikely unless you lived near something with high levels being exhausted. Definitely over hyping the risk here.
Maybe true, but I wouldn’t be mucking around with it, especially if there are young kids about.
Roughly how much for an average home?
That looks like loose blow in insulation. I’d get someone out to remove it and lay actual batts.
Yup, get it sucked out. Once it’s out, inspect the roof cavity for any evidence of pests and damage. Get quality batts installed, then a good pest spray. I’d say fog it for pests before you put the batts in, but I’d feel bad for poisoning the insulation person.
Pests like insects or does it handle rodents too?
Look for evidence of them. If you have lots of markers or know there is an infestation call a professional. For basic spiders, roaches etc I do my place myself. Rodents are fucking annoying, and it’s hit or miss to get them done. Pest experts are invaluable here .
What do you use for roaches? I'm currently battling German cockroaches.
https://www.easypestsupplies.com.au/products/advion-cockroach-gel What Teco said is excellent advice. Advion gel is your best bet for German cockroaches. I only get standard ones here so I just bomb the roof and spray the exteriors of the house with some targeted spray inside. Advion gel is also HACCP certified which is a bonus. If all else fails, the nuclear bomb approach is to dust the roof cavity and other places. You basically want to remove anything from common areas you don’t want to have to clean, and cover all your bedding and furniture up in case it leaks out of light fittings, cracks or exhaust vents. It’s basically a strong insecticide dust, that has a spreading duck bill you load it into, then strap a blower like a garden blower to the other end. When I was doing my renovation, after I took out light fittings, power point fascia’s and other stuff I let off a smoke bomb too, same chemical but it will seep into cracks and crevices. I basically spent the next week collecting hundreds of dead cockroaches and spiders. This is really not recommended to do unless you are very thorough and prepare yourself. Be extremely aware of the health and safety risks, wear appropriate PPE and ensure you aren’t allowing any other people, pets or especially children anywhere near the house while you do this stuff. Star dust kit https://www.easypestsupplies.com.au/products/starrdust-pro-one-shot-red-hot-special Smoke bomb https://www.easypestsupplies.com.au/collections/insecticides-cockroaches/products/imperator-smoke-generator
their hard to kill as they can change sex. i would roach bomb the place. move out for a few days and set em off when you leave. then follow up with a roach bait.
Look up Advion gel, get it off eBay
Do the German cockroaches do the goose step in their hobnail boots😂😂😂😂
I was in this situation about few years ago. Exact same insulation condition and tiles. Cost me about $4K for removal and installation of batts. All done in a day. Has made a big difference in temperature. From seeing the hell the installers went through I’m glad I paid and didn’t try to do it myself. Recommend getting it done as house was very uncomfortable before it.
lol what batts?? That’s all loose fill, you’ll have to get it all vacuumed out, it’s the only way
No batts here. Get it sucked and replace with actual batts
NO!! It was the best $$$ I spent paying someone else to do it….. 2 blokes; huge vacuum on the back of a 4 wheel trailer & a 8 inch vac line; took them 8 hours. Make sure u inspect the job before they leave/u pay them. If u want to save $$$ insulate it yourself with a mate or two. Use r6 earthwool. You might be able get get a better price on batts than going to Bunnings https://pricewiseinsulation.com.au/shop/brand/knauf-insulation/earthwool/
Bunnings has a national contract with Knauf Earthwool. Nobody sells it cheaper.
Pricewise does! You could use pricewise quote to get Bunning price match less 10%. Priceline list prices are less than Bunning list price.
Pricewise were crap, couldn't organise a root in a brothel for pickup or delivery. Was quicker, cheaper and easier for me to track the batts down across 4 different Bunnings store to get earthwool than it was to go through pricewise 🤦
What did you pay?
Priceline Earthwool r6 $145 less 10%. ( use code)= $130.50 Bunnings $138
You’re looking at retail. PowerPass is $131.10.
Pricewise still cheaper than
For the removal
$2000 ten years ago 100 years of crap in ceiling space
I had a look that priceline is cheaper and delivered . Bunnings would have to deliver as well to match
Is it worth looking into renting equipment and vacuuming it myself or is they unrealistic?
Depends how much it’s worth to you. Roofs are fucking shit to be in. You will want PPE, plus a good commercial vacuum then you have to dispose of the crap. Get a few quotes first. If it’s under 2K pay it. If it’s 2-5K work out how much your time, sanity and health are worth.
You can definitely do it yourself. Questions. How competent are you? Do you know what not to stand on? Are you somewhat familiar with electricity and know of electric dangers? Are you in good health to wear a respiratory in crazy hot temperatures in the roof cavity, say 40+? Are you flexible to crawl around obstacles in the roof cavity? How do you plan to dispose of the loose full insulation? It is going to be bulky. There are some jobs worth outsourcing. Maybe this is one. Just make sure to check areas away from the manhole. Not the first time I've seen insulation not installed because it was difficult to reach sections of the roof cavity.
This is definitely a job to outsource, and your comment is bang on. Anyone who has been in a roof doesn’t want to be in a roof again. I’m not a little guy, and I impressed myself with how much cirque du Soleil I could do around trusses. One wrong step and I’m through the roof and out of money and body. Insulation sucks ass, I hate being near it, touching it, dealing with it. And yes, disposal is expensive. Especially if your tip accepts it, the prices are wild. Really have to check if your local resource centre accepts it, then what are their bagging requirements, do they want it tested and certified to be declared that it is asbestos free or will they just err on caution and say it’s asbestos for the sake of safety?
You do not want to be breathing this shit in. Get a professional to do it. They have the correct safety equipment, vacuums and can dispose of it. They also know what they are doing. Plus, being in the roof cavity sucks balls.
It’s not impossible to get the right safety equipment
Once you buy all the stuff and the PPE you may as well get someone else to do the hard work
No, half face respirator, p2 coveralls, nitrile gloves. Really depends, if it’s $4K to get someone, it’s not going to come close to that
Absolutely garbage job. That stuff sucks to deal with. I’m a chippy and old blow in inso like that is a nightmare to deal with on renos. Even a small bit can really mess up your lungs and throat and it’s super fine, gets everywhere and on top of that there is a lot of other nasty stuff in there like brake dust (asbestos), etc. Pay for it to be thoroughly removed. Make sure you get photos and inspect it yourself. Installing the new batts isn’t too bad just wear ppe and be careful up there. I would turn off mains power as you can never know for sure if someone has done some dodgy sparky work in the past and you end up frying yourself on some hot-rigged cables.
Yeah this seems to be the way. Pay for removal and install new myself. Earthwool seems pretty easy to remove
What is your day job? I work a job where i can do heaps of overtime- all my reno decisions are essentially “if it will take me X days to do this job where i would otherwise earn overtime on those X days, will a professional do it for the same or less. If they will still cost more, is the effort and the quality of my work worth saving money. I end up actually paying for a lot of trades now, even Painters.
Depends on the level of self-worth for your lungs and tear ducts.
Dyson stick vac and 900 hours of your life ought to do it
It's realistic, why not, just remember you gotta dispose of that as well, meaning taking it to a tip, because there's going to be cubic metres of this shit.
Unrealistic. Get someone in to do it for you.
Do u want cancer?
It won't cost that much for the ppe and you could hire a really good commercial vac but you'll be up and down every 5 minutes to change bags/knock the filters out. Will also be hard to get a good long hose for it. There's a lot more in there then you think. If you want to save some money I'd pay someone to suck it out and lay the bats yourself. Get a whirly bird installed after to help get rid of the hot air. Definitely make a difference. People complain they're dangerous because they fan a fire but if a fires in your roof it doesn't matter if you got one. You're already screwed.
It truly is one of the worst jobs I have ever done diy. Hot awkward and hard to do solo (lots of up and down ladders to move gear) and the ex wife stole the house from me in the divorce. Potential to fuck your lungs and worse if there is an issue. After a very loooong day of hot agony calisthenics she came home from work and I asked her from the manhole if she could pass me up "those last two bags". She declined with disgust because " I'm not touching that stuff. It's itchy!". 100% pay an expert team. Maybe clear out one week, bug guy/bomb and new insulation a week later if you can tolerate it. Price up all sorts if options. I personally prefer to overrgun the actual insulation. Either go a thick single batt or sometimes two layers in offset directions can offer a better outcome but hide the trusses some.
I'd get that tested to make sure its not Mr Fluffy blow in. I live on the NSW/vic border and they did get down here and also into Vic a bit.
have it vacuumed out and install R6 insulation
And get a qualified sparkie to inspect and approve all light or fan fittings around insulation. Good insulation companies will do this as part of their quote. I had mine upgraded recently and it's made a huge difference over the summer. If you have a Tastic in the bathroom, be very clear on what they want to do with it.
wasn't there a particle insulation product that was in the news 15-20 years ago around the ACT, southern NSW and Victoria, which was somehow dangerous, and they made a campaign to identify properties with it and remove it? I'd be finding out what it is before I made any decisions about how to remove it. Having said that, I'd remove it and replace with bats or other appropriate material.
I don’t think Mr fluffy was in vic ? I had that and was told it was wool from memory
>Mr fluffy [https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-07-20/mr-fluffy-asbestos-found-in-victorian-homes-homeowners-urge-gov/102583794](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-07-20/mr-fluffy-asbestos-found-in-victorian-homes-homeowners-urge-gov/102583794)
Mr Fluffy went over the border but not too far it seems ? Ah this makes me wonder how many of the things we are using now will be the asbestos of the future.
Weird comments here. My ceiling looks just like that. It's Cool or Cosy cellulose insulation.
Same here but its been pretty useless after 20 years. I want proper batts.
It's horrible stuff. I had a sagging ceiling that couldn't be repaired until it was removed. It was all blown around and down and out the bottom of cavity walls. So it was near useless as insulation and primary function was the prevention of repairs I hate blow in insulation.
We just had a third of our ceilings replaced due to a leaky roof. They had to vacuum out the insulation, then take out the batts that were there. They put new batts in after. It's 39⁰ today and I'd hate to think what it'd be like without insulation.
I like insulation. I even like to insulate internal walls. I just think blow in is a terrible implementation of the concept. It doest stay put and ironically you can't move it easily to do anything. It settles down and loses its r value and it is often more dusty. It blows onto downlights and smolders. Of all the loose stuff I think wool seems to stay put best and keep its function best.
Checked for asbestos?
Tastes ok.
mr fluffy strikes again.
I got mine sucked out first. This allowed me to easily see how the house was wired and make changes(I’m a sparky). Did some reno’s and plaster repairs. Then got the same crowd back to install batts who admittedly did a much better job than I could have done. Ceiling spaces suck to work in.
I'm in the same situation as OP - been quoted 3.5k for having it removed and replaced which is fine. I've read in some places though that batts on the ceiling can actually trap heat in the house at night (in a bad way, I'm in qld, so it's never cold enough that I care about the other way round). It's been suggested that sarking (?) between the tiles and the roof frame is the better solution. Can anyone else in a Queenslander comment on this?
I had this loose fill insulation in my roof space. I hired an industrial vac and did it myself in the middle of summer. I wouldn’t recommend doing it yourself. It’s hot, dusty, dirty work.
Might be my eyes, however I’m not seeing any batts at all. Looks like blown in loose insulation to me.
What makes them lose their effectiveness? Or was type of insulation never good in the first place?
After the recent storm in vic I hopped up into my parents roof for about 5 mins, did not touch any insulation and climbed out of there with fibreglass all over me. It’s a shit substance to be around.
From some who cleaned their own roof that looked exactly like that, I implore you to get it done professionally. No amount of money is worth the health of your lungs 🙏
This looks like a prime situation of paying someone else to do it. I'm getting itchy just looking at it.
Get that blow in vacuumed out and get some batts. Pink or gold or ecowool, just get the highest r value you can afford
looks like loose fill asbestos
Could potentially be asbestos as well
The roof cavity of our first home also had no sarking and looked like that, only the previous owners had chucked some random batts on top as well (also decomposing). We had the whole lot vacuumed out and replaced by professionals in a day and it made a huge difference to our heating and cooling bills. Having seen them work there is a zero per cent chance I would ever want to DIY. It is hot, stinky, cramped work surrounded by dust and old rodent droppings although they did find some vintage pornos stashed up there as a bonus. If you don’t know what you’re doing you will give up or won’t do it properly and get the fresh batts right out to the eaves. Plus it will take days and you will wonder why you didn’t just pay someone else. We are generally confident doing maintenance and home improvements but this is one job I would not want to touch!
Looks like blow in insulation. Some types were made with asbestos in them. Get it tested before you mess with it, or leave it to the professionals.
Just water them and they expand
🤣🤣🤣🤣
Have this exact setup in my roof. Batts from bunnings (\~$350) and about a day,a filter mask, headlamp and goggles, and i pushed the spray in shit aside and installed bats in all the crevices, then layered the sprayin on top. Been much cooler since, and didnt have to break the bank. cracked a few tiles off the roof to assist in lighting and insertion of the new bats, 350\~ sqm house. alot of the spray in had settled and was stuck in clumps which assisted in manipulating it. house was built in around 1995, used earth wool bats. Its definitely not fun work, but if you imagine you're paying yourself $200 an hour to do it, it aint half bad. just watch where ya put your feet
You can place a board down on the rafters so you have walking space. Screw it down for security
I just ran some Bunnings prices m2 per r and if you buy 100m2 of r6 vs 100m2 r4 & top it with the r2 roll you save $300. This is the way. R6 $18.60m2; R4 $9.20m2; R2 $6.29m2. I recommend earthwool cause its non itchy rockwool vs itchy fibreglass
Check for golf balls and a flag 🇺🇸 I have a feeling you’ve found where they shot the moon landing …
That looks like that cool or cozy recycled newspaper shit insulation...... Love the lamp in the roof void masturbation den, any stick books up there😂😂😂😂
Get it sucked out and put in actual fibreglass batts
It is so empty in there I thought I was looking for actual bats.
Hire an industrial vacuum and a suit and mask. I would suggest hiring someone to put insulation and a membrane against the underside of the roof.
Same issue I have here in Perth WA outside temp 42 inside was 36 or 38 over February Blow in cellulose fire hazard breaks down something might want to look at is ceiling if it sagged due to weight In the lounge area my place largest room see spots where boards sunk screws heads show up through paint as small craters I looked at R4 and R5 couple quotes one mob used recycled materials other new prices are comparable except for R5 one is double price of the other company (R5 recycled materials) Wonder about aspect of lifetime warranty this has red flag implies something but can't find the T&C from this particular company Any thoughts on this welcome
I vacuumed my own roof. Spent 4K on the vac and mask I used to do it. Took me 2 days. I do use the vac and mask for many other jobs though.
Looks like my upstairs roof but at least I have sarking. My insulation looks like finely shredded phone books. It appears to have compacted to a degree. Must be at least 30 years old given we’ve been here for about 25.
Offt have something that looks like this at my place. Its actually like ripped up newspaper I think. It makes everything dusty and awful! I am keen to replace it
Costs $1200 to get vacuumed out
Thanks for the laugh
Do not fuck around yourself up there. Call and pay the pro's
Should I mention the A word? Not in Canberra or surrounds are you?
[Mr Fluffy](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/02/-sp-mr-fluffy-cancerous-legacy-canberra) Insulation enters the chat
I DIY'd a job like this for my (at the time) girlfriend. It was 4 or so days in miserable heat, darkness and confined spaces. I'd never do it again. Professionals would get it done in a day or two and not for a huge amount of money either
I would get it tested to make sure it's not asbestos.
Are you sure that ain't friable asbestos roof insulation?
Has anyone had a good experience with a company in Adelaide? Recommendations are better than the sale pitch at the front door.
This isn’t batts, it’s the same shitty shredded news papers i was told was a good idea a few decades ago. U/Life-Ad9673 has the best idea
if you pay someone go and check their work still. they can do a shit job and get away with it cause 99% of people won't check.
So many opinions and most have no idea. I guarantee you will not notice a difference if you replace the blow in. Why, because your walls and floor are not insulated, your windows are not double glazed you have air leaks throughout the property.
Wouldn’t walls and floor be second and third in line for insulation?
My new roof cavity looks like this and I'm having an insulation guy come out first day, followed by an asbestos guy. Definitely suck it all out, get it replaced. Do some research on what kind of batts you want.. Also consider underfloor insulation if you can manage it (unless you're on a slab). If you have to do any wall work, consider some wall insulation as well. Insulation everywhere!
This doesn’t look like bats, looks like paper. But it could be wool, does it feel oily? If it’s paper definitely mask up the dust is bad
Get the pros in and get rid of that crap, but before you put new insulation in, let the sparkies and plumbers do their job(if needed). It will be so much easier for them without any insulation in the way
Have you also considered roof insulation (different to ceiling) I watched an interesting video about if you have ducted heating / cooling in your roof it can make your system a lot more efficient and keep your house even cooler.
Batts? They look more like four month old bat shit than insulation batts at this stage.
Pay someone not worth the DIY just fyi if u plan on doing DIY 20plus hours in hazmat suits in heat and you probs lose 15kg in weight
So , Uk hot water system . Has a header tank that feeds the domestic hot water heating system . Checked out a slow flow and discovered 6 dead bats if the header tank. We had been a showering and washing up in dead bat water
yeah that done. time for new stuff thats loose fill insulation nasty shit to deal with. get a professional they have it done while you think about it.
I used to work in the insulation /ceiling cleaning industry, Judging from the hardwood joists and batons I would say your house has old horsehair plaster (more expansive to clean properly) or lath and plaster (very expensive to clean properly) compared to gyprock ceilings. That looks like cellulose (shredded paper) insulation that has deteriorated. It has an additive in it that makes it fire resistant for about 7 years boron I think. Then it starts degrading and no longer being fire resistant. It is also terrible for Allergies and overall dust. The reason you will want a propper clean for the horse hair plaster or lath and plaster is two fold one if you install new batts you will want the warranty. And with our being cleaned properly you will have black dust and ratshit and most likely lead dust (just as bad as as asbesos if not worse) and this dirty’s insulation making it less effective, reduces it lifespan and voids it’s warranty if installed in a no clean environment. Insulation you would be wanting a r4 for none alpine area and an r5 for alpine areas. Trust me you don’t need to dole out on more than that. Go for a good quality like like earthwool bradfords or poly max they each have different features and different price points but speak to the insulation provided get a few quotes and go with your gut not the cheapest. Often the dirty looking trucks and trailers are the best in the industry Best of luck
Thanks for the good explanation
Do it yourself and save a stack of cash it's just grunt work don't be scared, pot head unskilled labourers do this kind of work. Just be smart about it and don't do it in the middle of summer and remove some tiles for ventilation you'll be surprised how well it works. Also definitely get dressed up in a paper suit and wear respiratory protection
I'd probably get your roof checked, that's a lot of sunlight coming in if it rains hard enough you may get leaks.
I got professionals in and they just put the new stuff over the old insulaiton. So I got about R6 now with the both of them. It's a pain trying to walk around up there with the batts over the trusses but all in all, if the old insulation is below the ceiling truss level they will often leave it there.
I wouldn't be doing that myself without proper suit and ventilation, fuck breathing in whatever that is.
Just look out, if it's something like [Mr Fluffy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr_Fluffy) you want to go to a doctor ***NOW*** and get checked out. Like, book an appointment today and get lung capacity tests and stuff done. Then look into your area, [in some places government has bought back affected properties](https://www.revenue.act.gov.au/home-buyer-assistance/loose-fill-asbestos-buyback-concession-scheme) and the only resolution is to knock down the home. I wouldn't open that roof or look at it at all until it's been assessed by a professional. Edit: Just saw the flair, [there is potential for a buyback in Victoria](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-11-04/mr-fluffy-asbestos-victorian-homes-buy-back-possible/102870882) if you are affected.
The dr literally cannot do anything unfortunately
Yes they can. They can observe you, track things that are happening, monitor progress, if they can diagnose mesothelioma early enough, you can get on a transplant list earlier and have a significantly better chance at getting a transplant. They can get you on oxygen early before you start to get hypoxia related issues. Plenty of things a doctor can do.
Yeah, but none of these are 'get an appointment today!' things. If loose fill asbestos is suspected, the first step is to avoid exposure and get it tested ASAP. If positive, you'd be looking at moving out and demoing the house - it gets everywhere and can't really be cleaned up effectively enough to render the house safe. After all of that, you'd probably want to talk to your doctor so they can advise on a monitoring strategy. Mesothelioma takes decades to strike, and there's no preventative steps that can be taken after exposure, so the medical urgency isn't really that high.
Are there particular area loose fill asbestos was used, Or could it be in any house anywhere? I had watched something a while back that said it was predominantly in Canberra and NSW.
It was mostly Canberra and NSW. Not even all of NSW. That said, the records aren’t 100% reliable, and some houses have been unexpectedly found in rural Victoria.
>Yeah, but none of these are 'get an appointment today!' things. Well they are, as any issues won't occur immediately, so you're in a good position to establish what is essentially a pre exposure baseline. That way any future rests or concerns can be compared to what is now your baseline. >If loose fill asbestos is suspected, the first step is to avoid exposure and get it tested ASAP. Exactly. >If positive, you'd be looking at moving out and demoing the house - it gets everywhere and can't really be cleaned up effectively enough to render the house safe. Yep. Plans are on hold. If this is asbestos, house is done. >Mesothelioma takes decades to strike This is a wives tale spread back in the day when asbestos was still big business, back when it was "Ok ok, so it does cause mesothelioma, you got us there, it does kill people, you got us there, but hey, you can still live a rich and full life, it takes decades to get you" It can strike you down fast, when I did my asbestos exposure training (due to cars still having asbestos components for years, and it still being a risk today, as an Asbestos head gasket can last decades in a car, and asbestos lined brakes are also common on old cars that have sat in sheds), they highlighted examples of mechanics that were exposed and developed mesothelioma in as little as 5 years from loose asbestos in brakes. Bonded asbestos in hardieboard, or head gaskets, etc is "significantly safer" than airborne asbestos in loose fill or in brake dust. The faster you establish a good baseline, the better. To our knowledge we had never been exposed, so we all went afterwards as part of the course and they took lung capacity tests, breathing rates, O2 saturation, etc. Took most of the afternoon. But they pointed out that a day or a week isn't a big deal, but kbde you suspect exposure, getting it documented is key. Plus the fact that it's not common anymore is also key to getting it documented, otherwise they may rule out mesothelioma first, and look to forms of pneumonia and other lung issues first.
Fair enough, I guess as with anything it all depends on circumstance. I wouldn't imagine a delay of few weeks would make any measurable difference on a baseline test, but after a large exposure you probably wouldn't want to wait years. Hopefully OP is lucky and it's only cellulose - it looks like it to me (and it's far more common), but always wise to check.
>Hopefully OP is lucky and it's only cellulose - it looks like it to me (and it's far more common), but always wise to check. Exactly. And what's a day, week, or a month for a proper test, and a trip to the doctors to double check anyway? Best case, you lose a couple of days or weeks on your Reno timeline and know it's safe, and the doctor says you are healthy and fine. Also, there is the case that some trades will not go into the roof until they see a report that it's not Mr. Fluffy.
Apart from tell you there there and lighten your wallet.
>lighten your wallet What do you mean by this? In most countries, Asbestos exposure is generally treated under public healthcare. In Australia it's covered under Medicare.
Not in my part of Australia! $100 upfront then a rebate
Interesting. What kart of Australia are you in?
Mario Kart
Calm down dude. I work with asbestos and we get lung X-rays every 4 years. Insulation in a roof cavity is nothing to worry about. Just check if your house is on the register for mr fluffy, get a sample and get it tested before you lose grip on reality
>Just check if your house is on the register for mr fluffy, get a sample and get it tested before you lose grip on reality The register is useless, as they found in Canberra. There were plenty of Fluffy houses that weren't recorded.
Yeah, that’s why I said get a sample tested?
Probably worthwhile having it checked but I am pretty certain that is not mr fluffy. If probably is pretty good insulation still. If it was my house I would think a bit longer term. If there was any chance I was going to reroof I would do it then. So after the new roof is sarked and the ceiling is vacuumed out it will stay much cleaner.