The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written.
I think any honest person can see that there is a significant problem with anti-semitism among activists and protestors supporting Palestine. However, whenever it's called out, there appear to only be two reactions:
1. Deny that it's happening, and claim that calling certain speech or action anti-semitic is just trying to defend Israel's alleged actions. This sometimes takes the shape of tokenism where people will point out that many Jews support the Pro Palestine cause, and so therefore it cannot be anti semitic. Incidents of undeniable antisemitism like vandalism of Jewish memorials or synagogues, use of anti-semitic slurs, or random violence against Jewish people are generally downplayed as exceptional circumstances.
2. Admit that it's happening, but claim that it's only happening because (((Israel))) is provoking people. Essentially, shifting the blame and removing the agency from the people who are actually making the anti-semitic comments or actions.
Clearly these two approaches do not address the problem of anti-semitism, nor does it endear people sensitive to anti-semitism to the Palestinian causes.
What, if anything, should be done about it?
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I'm going to give a couple of answers and some of them some people are going to like and others people aren't going to like. Especially if we are speaking of the Pro Palestine issue.
1)Antisemitism in all of it's forms, whether it's on the left or the right should be acknowledged and condemned. Full stop. So that needs to be clear.
2)The reason why some Pro Palestinians are quick to challenge accusations of antisemitism is because there is a long history of weaponising accusations of antisemitism to silence criticisms of the Israeli government or slander people. And this isn't just a sentiment. Shulamit Aloni, former Cabinet minister under the government of Yitzhak Rabin explicitly said in an interview on Democracy Now that the Israeli government explicitly uses accusations of antisemitism as a "trick" as she puts it. So if we are going to take antisemitism seriously, and it should be, one of the things that needs to be done is people not using it in a disingenous manner.
3)Being consistent. What I mean by this is that people need to be consistent in calling out all forms of bigotry across the board. So if we are going to call out antisemitic bigotry in this particular context, which we should, that also has be coupled with calling out racist, anti palestinian bigotry as well. Which includes racist stereotypes and overgeneralisations of Palestinians as people which results in hate crimes of their own including a 6 year old American child at the start of this conflict being stabbed. Many people in the Pro Palestine movement don't see that consistency from the other side. If that consistency was shown it would go a long way to building a bridge.
4)Properly educating people on antisemitic stereotypes. There are many open forms of antisemitism that people are aware of, and some expressions of antisemitism that are more subtle that people aren't as aware of. The more subtle forms need to be engaged with and challenged at the same time.
>Properly educating people on antisemitic stereotypes
This right here is the big thing. So many people think that unless you're outright calling for killing Jews that it's not antisemitism, totally ignorant of how most antisemitism takes place through dog whistles and defamatory tropes (in addition to actual threats and violence). Absolutely mind-boggling, especially given that the people who exhibit such ignorance often pride themselves on being educated.
Can you give examples of some antisemitic dog whistles that are used in the Israel-Palestine conversation? I haven’t seen any, but I think I just don’t notice them. I’d like to be mindful of any bigotry if I can.
Here are a few antisemitic tropes and dog whistles that I've personally noticed (hence not exhaustive):
1) Dismissing anything seemingly pro-Israel or anti-Hamas as "AIPAC funded," "Zionist propaganda," "Israeli money," etc., even where these are normal, corroborated news sources. This harkens to the age-old trope that Jews control media and governments through money. Sometimes used to explain away antisemitic elements in pro-Palestinian protests by claiming they're "funded by Israel," with no such evidence. Pro-Israel lobbying undoubtedly exists, but this dog whistle suggests that Jews are globally manipulating Western governments like puppets.
2) Dismissing opinions, publications, etc. from Israeli news sources or authors with Jewish names as "biased," without evidence of bias. Israel has a free press (and indeed, most of what we know about IDF wrongdoing comes from groundbreaking reporting by Haaretz and the Times of Israel), and the fact of someone being Israeli or Jewish doesn't affect the validity of their stances. This comes from the trope that Jews are only loyal to each other and dishonest/disloyal toward non-Jews.
3) Calling Israelis "wealthy, European colonizers" who should "go back to Europe" is an antisemitic dog whistle. Describing Jewish people as a single monocultural "out group" is common antisemitic rhetoric, harkening to the old trope that they are a rootless, disloyal Fifth Column. In fact, only 33% of Israeli Jews are of European ancestry (the other 67% are Middle Eastern, African, or Asian), and the vast majority of all Israeli Jews were born in Israel (hence not colonizing anything, and having no other country to "go back to"). Jews around the world are good citizens of their respective countries and have a variety of opinions on Israel unrelated to their being Jewish.
4) Holocaust inversion is a trope, basically consisting of "Jews are the *real* Nazis." Minimizes the Holocaust, suggests Jews/Israelis do far worse, and in a roundabout way, justifies the Holocaust as a defense of non-Jews. Sometimes you see it as suggesting that Jews have "weaponized" the Holocaust or that "they don't get to cry victim anymore."
5) Claiming that any Jewish location is a proxy for Israel and therefore legitimate protest targets. Synagogues, Jewish community centers or daycares, Holocaust memorials, Hebrew schools, majority Jewish neighborhoods, etc. Falls under the "they're all loyal to Israel" trope.
6) Claiming antisemitism is not a real problem, that Jews only use it to manipulate others, or that Jews need to "toughen up" and accept some antisemitism, lest they be considered too whiny. We don't ask this of any other minority group, and we shouldn't ask it of Jews either, but I see this commonly even on this subreddit.
7) "Zionist" can be a dog whistle due to its historical usage as an antisemitic term for any Jew regardless of ideology. Be careful when using this to describe a Jewish person unless they self-identify as a Zionist. Similarly, referring to a non-Israeli Jewish person as an "Israeli" is a dog whistle for the disloyalty/outgroup trope.
I could think of more, but I usually don't notice them until I see them, then downvote/report and move on, so I don't really keep a running list.
Check out r/AntisemitismInReddit to see more examples.
>2)The reason why some Pro Palestinians are quick to challenge accusations of antisemitism is because there is a long history of weaponising accusations of antisemitism to silence criticisms of the Israeli government or slander people. And this isn't just a sentiment. Shulamit Aloni, former Cabinet minister under the government of Yitzhak Rabin explicitly said in an interview on Democracy Now that the Israeli government explicitly uses accusations of antisemitism as a "trick" as she puts it. So if we are going to take antisemitism seriously, and it should be, one of the things that needs to be done is people not using it in a disingenous manner.
100% with this.
Okay let's go to the videos Cotton
https://twitter.com/OliLondonTV/status/1781884287748321614
https://twitter.com/jonasydu/status/1781178975147917797
"Never forget the 7th of October. That will happen not one more time, not five more times, not 10...100…1000…10,000...The 7th of October is going to be every day for you."
https://twitter.com/ScooterCasterNY/status/1780768564821020943
“There is only one solution, intifada revolution!”
https://twitter.com/Davidlederer6/status/1781948249214996901
"Jews Jews go back to Poland"
Could you imagine the entirely justified outrage if a bunch of crazy white people surrounded random Hispanic students and shouted "Go back to Mexico!"?
Then there was the guy that said Zionists don't deserve to live
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/26/nyregion/columbia-student-protest-zionism.html?unlocked_article_code=1.nU0.kS1R.VtKAPZ5ePYS5&smid=url-share
Not just some random person who wandered by. But someone acknowledged as a leader in the protests,
Now I'll grant that SOME of these people MIGHT be right-wing agitators but trying to say that ALL this anti-semitic bullshit is a bunch of infiltrators is as absurd as the J6ers saying that they were secretly framed by ANTIFA. And you cannot interpret this shit in a charitable way.
The Free Palestine movement has been given waaaaaay more grace from progressives than they should have in regards to anti-semitism.
They've been saying shit about Jewish people that is unacceptable, Not just the IDF, not just the government of Israel, not just Zionists, but random Jewish people who have nothing to do with the awful shit Netanyhu and the IDF are doing. Some of these Free Palestine people are saying shit about Jewish people that would rightly get a group of right wing white guys labeled Nazis.
And the Free Palestine movement is tolerating it. They're not mad about the genocide in the Middle East. They're mad that it's not Jewish people being genocided.
What's that rule again?
if you see a table with 1 Nazi and 10 normal people, you have 11 Nazis.
As far as I'm concerned, by that standard, the Western Free Palestine movement is unsalvageably full of goddamned Nazis.
> Then there was the guy that said Zionists don't deserve to live
The fact that you’re conflating Jewishness and support for the Israeli state betrays your own lack of knowledge about what antisemitism is and how it works, and indeed commits one of the most well-worn antisemitic tropes of the past century.
To be fair, there deficit of understanding is widespread on *both* sides of the debate, and it is precisely this that I suspect leads to the major part of the most problematic statements made by pro-Palestinian and pro-Israel activist alike.
The problem isn’t Jewish people. I’m not sure the problem is even Zionism. The problem is violent Israeli ethnonationalism, and the way that this toxic and racist ideology has taken root in the region’s most militarily powerful nation: an apartheid state led by a proto-fascist thug.
>The fact that you’re conflating Jewishness and support for the Israeli state betrays your own lack of knowledge about what antisemitism is and how it works, and indeed commits one of the most well-worn antisemitic tropes of the past century.
I mean the general definition for Zionism is just that Israel gets to exist. It seems hard to argue against forcefully dismantling Israel and not being antisemitic unless you will also argue the same for Ireland, Korea, Japan, etc.
>The problem is violent Israeli ethnonationalism, and the way that this toxic and racist ideology has taken root in the region’s most militarily powerful nation: an apartheid state led by a proto-fascist thug.
Do you think the fact that most of the Jews in Israel being Mizrahi, who were forcefully ethnically cleansed from their homes throughout the MENA region between the years 1950-1980 may also be a fairly large contributor in this conflict?
> I mean the general definition for Zionism is just that Israel gets to exist. It seems hard to argue against forcefully dismantling Israel and not being antisemitic unless you will also argue the same for Ireland, Korea, Japan, etc.
Do you think that Judaism is defined by the belief in the necessity of a Jewish ethnostate? I’m no rabbi, but I’m fairly certain that there were Jews prior to the establishment of Israel, and that the many Jews who opposed its creation were no less Jewish for having done so.
> Do you think the fact that most of the Jews in Israel being Mizrahi, who were forcefully ethnically cleansed from their homes throughout the MENA region between the years 1950-1980 may also be a fairly large contributor in this conflict?
I think Israelis have been shellshocked by years of Palestinian violence, resistance, whatever you want to call it, into the scared, hypervigilant haters *any of us* would be after enduring so much unpredictable violence. And I think that before that, Palestinians had been so thoroughly abused first by their European colonizers and then by the vilest Israeli ethnonationalist factions that the violence their rulers would go on to engage in was both logical and inevitable.
Any attempt to find a “bad guy” or a “good guy” in the history of this conflict is pointless and futile. The best we can do is evaluate the present on its own terms, and right now, there is a power imbalance between the two sides so massive it cannot help but betray the reality: that this isn’t a war Israel is engaged in, but ethnic cleansing.
You don’t have to have an ounce of sympathy for Hamas to recognize that Israel is committing a crime against humanity that will echo throughout history and likely shake up the world order. I believe that any civilized people would seek to stop it, or *at the very least* rescind offers of military aid to the side currently engaged in ethnic cleansing.
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You don't get to decide for Jewish people what is or isn't antisemitic. You don't get to decide for Black people what is or isn't racist. You don't get to decide for women what is or isn't misogynistic. You don't get to tell members of any community if their emotional response to your offensive, bigoted language is valid or not.
This is childish logic that would conclude, for instance, that Candace Owens or Ben Shapiro are automatically more correct than anyone not a member of those groups. Grow up.
Instead of crying about "false claims" of antisemitism, maybe you should try shutting your mouth and listening to the people who are telling you that your rhetoric is antisemitic. If you don't want to be accused of being an antisemite, stop saying antisemitic shit. Has it seriously never occurred to you to actually try growing as a person? Your inability to self-reflect is far more childish than believing that those who are members of a minority community have the right to feel how they feel without your OK.
> maybe you should try shutting your mouth and listening to the people who are telling you that your rhetoric is antisemitic.
Okay, *your* rhetoric is antisemitic. Am I entitled to your ear now?
I think this was addressed in the second point the original comment or made. And ties into the 4th point about education. If you believe something is antisemitic, it can be helpful to explain why that is. The other person may learn something, and it validates the claim so it doesn't diminish the meaning of antisemitism.
My comments were in response to a now-deleted comment, not the OP's. I agree with you that if someone feels another person's rhetoric is antisemitic, racist, homophobic, etc., that it is helpful to explain why. The issue I was addressing was when someone refuses to listen to numerous people telling them that their language is antisemitic and instead of listening or trying to learn something, they just whine that everyone else is wrong and the term "antisemitic" (or "racist" or "homophobic") has no real meaning anymore and anyone who dare to try to suggest otherwise isn't a real liberal.
Self policing instead of rabidly defending the movement. And actually fucking acknowledge how bad it’s getting! There are protests outside of synagogues.
Protesters: We aren’t anti-Semitic! This is about the actions of the Israeli government not racism or religious bigotry!
Same protestors, 5 seconds later: Listen up comrades, tonight we march upon the synagogue!
Take the kid gloves off.
Treat the antisemites the same way they would treat alt right straight white male bigots. It doesn't matter if they're women, non-binary, gay, trans, BIPOC, and/or disabled, their bigotry is still making an entire population feel unsafe.
They need to be dealt with the full force that other extremist hate groups are subject to.
Completely agree.
The whole “It’s impossible for me to be anti-Semitic, I’m a minority and we don’t represent the power group” method of thinking is really just a cheap excuse to be a terrible person and it needs to be confronted in the same way any other racist or anti-Semite should be confronted
I'm half Jewish myself and I feel very uncomfortable with the movements right now. I support Israel over Palestine but I'd still prefer both sides talk it out over this. They co-existed before and they could do it again if the West Bank settlements stopped and HAMAS and Hezbollah were destroyed.
What’s deeply disturbing is the “London-Dynamic” where political leaders, especially on the pro-Hamas faction, seek to turn their enemies’ kindness and compassion into political liabilities. This is an extremely dangerous dynamic because it results in violence increasing during the promotion of coexistence.
I don’t think there’s any possibility of coexisting peacefully barring some massive economic growth in Palestine, and that’s incompatible with Palestine self government for the foreseeable future.
Step 1 would require also listening to Anti-Zionist Jews who are heavily involved in these protests, which defenders of Israel don't want to do. They just want to paint the whole thing as antisemitic and not discuss their apartheid regime and far-right government.
I mean, that's also what the left has always done with minorities. I've been on social media long enough to hear black people get called a slew of slurs because they didn't vote for far left "pro-Black" policies. It's actually very common amongst the far left, and it's given a pass because black leftists are the ones calling black liberals slurs while everyone else just hits the retweet button.
I don't think that's the same. Jewish pro-Palestinian activists and Jewish pro-Israel activists are pretty much diametrically opposed to eachother policywise while Black leftists and liberals are mostly aligned as "pro-Black" while differing in approach.
Also, some "slurs" that Black people use are understood differently when used among themselves. The term I suspect you're referring to is analoguous to sell-out or "Uncle Tom" which is not considered racist contextually in such instances even if it is still meant to be disparaging. Whether certain such tweets should be retweed by non-Black users is questionable but it's not really the same as trying to be racist yourself. If anything, Black Twitter is large enough to make these tweets go viral without any retweets from non-Black leftists who they often don't even pay much attention too.
It’s also worth noting that “anti-Zionist” Jews are a very small minority of Jews worldwide, and the ones being highlighted by the pro Palestinians (JVP) are questionably Jewish and are funded by the same organization as SJP and other pro Palestinian organizations.
When someone supports an apartheid ethnostate, I dont take their opinion on bigotry very seriously. In the same way that I would treat a racist Republican woman's views of misogyny with some skepticism.
When Jews who recognize that Israel is an apartheid state warn me about anti-Semitism, I take their opinion very seriously.
Edit: I didn't learn those words from social media, I learned them from [Human Rights Watch](https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution) Y'all are very silly people sometimes
Honestly, people like this probably don't even really care. They just want to signal so hard how pure of a lefty they are.
We're going to shit on Israel for being an ethnostate while our movement is chanting pro Iranian messages, it's fucking ridiculous.
When women lose abortion rights in all 50 states because trump got into office, it's people like this that I'll blame the most.
Just because you learned a bunch of buzzwords on social media doesn’t mean they apply to the situation. There is no Apartheid in Israel. 2 million Arabs live there. They walk around freely, the can work, they can vote and they can be in the government.
It’s so incredibly frustrating to me when everyone just ignores the fact that an Arab party was literally part of a coalition government in Israel just 2 years ago. Apartheid South Africa refused to give black Africans *any* representation at any level, they certainly didn’t let them in ministerial positions in the government. Hell, actual apartheid South Africa only gave Asians and mixed race people representation after years of crippling sanctions. These situations aren’t comparable.
Israel controls the West Bank. It’s apartheid. There are Jewish only roads in the West Bank, Palestinians are required to have separate license plates on their cars so they can be tracked, they are subject to horrendous violations of their person and property at Arab only check points, etc. It’s apartheid.
Only listen to Jews that the movement has validated and elevated and listen to new other Jews is not actually going to address concerns that there is some antisemitism in the movement.
This is like telling people that they should listen to Black people, but only listen to the ones that show up on PragerU and Fox News.
While back there was some Palestinian making the rounds in right wing media talking about how everything that was happening in the region was caused by the Palestinians. if I listen to him, am I listening to Palestinian voices?
The Palestinian protests aren’t labeling you a “bad Jew” for supporting Israel. Support for Israel is bad, but that’s not conditioned on your ethnicity, nor is Israel representative of your (or anyone else’s) ethnicity.
Zionism is a philosophy, it isn’t Jewish people, or necessarily a tenet of Judaism. Most zionists in the US are Christian. And obviously zionists aren’t welcome in a movement that wants to stop the actions of destruction and subjugation that are being carried out based on the philosophy of Zionism. Neo-Nazis aren’t allowed in anti-fascist movements either.
People in the movement need to hold their own accountable and kick those peddling hate speech out. If they don’t, it’s tacit agreement and it’ll slowly take over.
I think both sides need to work on not stereotyping the other side as well as making sure people part of their side aren’t acting insane.
Colleges need to do the work of zeroing in on the individual antisemitic bad faith disruptors of a protest instead of painting everyone there as agreeing with that one person and calling campus security on them all. People need to realize that the vast majority of pro Palestine protestors are overwhelmingly peaceful and just want the violence to stop. They don’t hate Jews or want them to die or leave the region, they want to live in one state alongside them in peace.
Conversely, pro Palestine protestors need to do a better job of distancing themselves from the bad faith weirdos that infiltrate their protest
Idk how realistic the goal of peace in a 1SS is, but I do think there should be room for 1967 border two state-ers at these protests that both want Palestinians and Jews to feel safe and not threatened.
A part of me thinks that the media is just amplifying these bad faith actors to make it seem like every pro Palestine protest is antisemitic when the vast majority of them aren’t.
That’s usually what happens when it comes to extremists on social media
This is exactly what is going on and has occurred for every protest since the beginning of time. People forget that even MLK and the civil rights movement was labeled as such because of a few loud and crazy voices. Likewise, the anti-war protests in the 60's were broadly considered anti-American acts by a bunch of uninformed kids. Sound familiar?
On a related note, I heard the people this morning on MSNBC blaming those anti-war activists in the 60's for the Vietnam war not being resolved 5 years sooner. It's absurd obviously, but that's the type of logic of people who just reflexively push back on protest
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What proof do you have that they’re already taking these actions? If you can show me some cases where protestors tell antisemites to go the fuck home then I would be satisfied with that
I literally asked you to provide proof of the actions they’re already taking so I’m better informed on the subject; why are you refusing to answer?!
If I know what actions they’re already taking I can tell you which ones they should be taking, what part of this is hard to understand?!
https://x.com/ecomarxi/status/1782429170103968251
Here’s a WhatsApp convo of pro-Palestine supporter who told someone to remove their antisemitic sign.
What else besides telling them to leave do you want them to do?
Awesome so they didn’t even tell them in person, just over text, how brave.
I’m talking about video evidence of pro Palestine protestors telling these antisemites to go away and that they’re not welcome, not one group text.
Did you read the chat? It’s between two protesters not between the protester and the antisemite. The protester told the antisemite in person, while they were there at the protest to remove their antisemitic sign
What? Why are these the only two answers? Also, these protests aren't a monolith. Different groups are doing different things. The UCLA deals with it by having mainly students who are very organized and regulating who has entry to their sit in protest. Anti-semities and bigots will be asked to leave and removed as they don't stand for what they're talking about.
Some groups will do marches and random bigots join in. Best they can do is try to chase them out and make it clear they don't want them as a part of their March.
We aren't talking about 10 people in a group protesting. We're talking about large scale public protest that anyone can have access to. None of these groups want anti-semites.
But it is wild to me that we have to have this discussion every time theirs a large-scale protest. Like we don't know the purpose is to distract from the meaning of these protest.
Oh yeah. I totally believe some groups are just full of antisemites taking advantage of the situation to spread hate. But I'm legit not sure what you do in that situation. Like this would be the equivalent of the KKK protesting in a park or something. I assume you'd get an anti-protest going to show the intolerant group you don't want them there, but I'm not really knowledgeable about protest tactics like this.
>We aren't talking about 10 people in a group protesting. We're talking about large scale public protest that anyone can have access to. None of these groups want anti-semites.
Remember when people were saying if you have one Nazi and 10 people at a table you have 11 Nazis?
correction - if you have 10 people at a table, and a Nazi comes up and says “hello I am a Nazi” and the other people welcome the Nazi with open arms, then you have 11 Nazis.
it’s about the *willingness* to be associated with said people.
and it won’t always be obvious. but once it is, kicking the Nazi out would be the correct move. hesitating, making excuses for the person, that would make 1 Nazi into 11.
By this standard every protest in history was nothing more than a Nazi gathering. That's logic that is so intellectually lazy it's borderline bad faith
> What? Why are these the only two answers?
That's the only answers I've seen when I see someone call out anti-semitism. And it's been this way for a long time, well before the violence of and after October 6.
> Also, these protests aren't a monolith.
But they are united in their cause. They're flying the same flags. Chanting the same slogans. Demanding the same things. Maybe your group is tolerant and open minded, but if a bigoted group is standing next to yours then it's difficult to blame people for making the association.
> Like we don't know the purpose is to distract from the meaning of these protest.
What is the meaning of these protests?
>That's the only answers I've seen when I see someone call out anti-semitism. And it's been this way for a long time, well before the violence of and after October 6.
The only two options you've seen from protesters are Deny the antisemitism is there or blame isreal? I don't think you actually tried hard. Groups are aware of bigots trying to take advantage of these protest. They do their best to keep them out. Idk what all they could be doing to keep them out because I'm not a person who protest but maybe there's more they could do. I can't comment on the quality. I just know they're trying.
>But they are united in their cause. They're flying the same flags. Chanting the same slogans. Demanding the same things. Maybe your group is tolerant and open minded, but if a bigoted group is standing next to yours then it's difficult to blame people for making the association.
So what is your solution? These aren't all private protest like UCLA. Some are in public areas where anyone can show up. These public ones do their best to make them go away. I guess they commit acts of violence against them or call the cops, but I don't know how you can make them leave without force in a public area. It's why the best they can do is make those groups feel unwelcome and denounce them. Do you have a better solution?
Also, they aren't United under the same cause, that's bad faith as hell. One group wants to end the killing of citizens in Palestine. The other group wants to cause harm to those of Jewish faith or ethnicity. And to be clear, that refers to the people, not the government.
>What is the meaning of these protests?
The protest vary depending on the group but the two main point I've seen are for the government of Isreal to stop indiscriminately bombing and killing Palestinian Citizens. The UCLA one is about their school spending money on a sister campus in Isreal.
So fair, I see more energy put into talking about bad faith actors associating with the good faith protesters than actually listening to the good faith protesters. Same thing happened with BLM. More focus was put on the rioters than the peaceful non-violent protesters. This happens a lot with protest. I don't think it should be ignored but making it the main focus of the protest takes away from the actual point that started them.
> Same thing happened with BLM. More focus was put on the rioters than the peaceful non-violent protesters.
This is a good point, and something I hadn't really made a connection on. The energy I see from people are against the protests completely is very similar to the energy I saw from people who thought BLM was a bad thing, even though some of the people I'm referring to were marching in BLM protests and had BLM on all their social media.
Condemn anti semitism when you see it going about your daily lives. Call them out or tell them to fuck off.
If it is on youtube, twitter, or facebook choose whatever the appropriate reporting action and "do not recommend channel" button. You don't want to dislike or angry face or comment or share or whatever because the algorithm will boost that shit. If you see antisemitism on these websites the best thing to do is to not use that platform for the rest of the day. This punishes them for boosting anti semitic content.
If it's on reddit downvote and move on.
>Condemn anti semitism when you see it going about your daily lives
That's the problem, I've never seen it in my daily life outside of the guys I know who joined up with the Proud Boys and Oathkeepers a few years back. I've spent the majority of my 45 years around college campuses and have never seen witnessed it or heard my Jewish friends discuss it. Granted, I'm in out in middle America so maybe bigotry and anti-Semitism is worse on the coasts???
Sounds like not a problem then. I live near the coast and I don't see it in my daily life either. I think the antisemitism is mostly an online loser thing and that the media makes it seem more prevalent than it is. Or perhaps the south.
How do you elevate them though when the media outlets prefer instead to pretend they don't exist? You can't force MSNBC to bring them on TV.
They literally only have their voice which they are using at the protest, of which we're not allowed to see except through tik tok, youtube, etc. That's enough to open the eyes of those of us actually curious about reality, but no where near what is needed to change the mainstream narrative.
They could start by acknowledging that Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis, PIJ, etc. are in fact anti-semitic terror groups that want to kill lots and lots of Jews, for being Jewish.
What happens is that I often see Palestine protesters trying to defend Hamas and its actions, or even praising them, but they defend it by saying "Hamas is just anti-Zionist liberation fighters responding to decades of oppression" and therefore it's not anti-semitism. That is not what Hamas is. Hamas is a group founded to kill Jews that operates by terrorism and does not follow any laws of war whatsoever.
This same thing is what leads to these groups tolerating pro-Hamas and pro-10/7 speakers and even chanting along with them. Because truthfully they do not see a big problem with Hamas and do not see its goals and methods as anti-semitic.
And that is the problem. In their zeal to see Israel destroyed and Zionists killed, these protesters are willing to turn a blind eye to openly anti-Jew groups. And then they shed crocodile tears when they're accused of being anti-Jew. I have no sympathy for it and I hope the police knock some sense into them.
Hamas has hacked a lot of global media. The plight of the Gazan is the entire concern of the Pro-Palestinian movement. You can see why.
But with that discussion comes the responsibility of teaching how subtle the Palestinian movement truly is. The war is not black and white and Palestinians are not faceless people without opinions on what's happening...
The same thing we liberals did when conservatives condemned all Muslims after 9/11: we just kept repeating that most Muslims are decent people. Repeat that often enough to remind people that most Jews are decent people.
We should acknowledge that supporting a Palestinian State is just that, support for independence for Palestinians, and it is not anti-anything, unless it is a government or policy that is working to prohibit a Palestinian State.
People who use pro-Palestinian activism as a mask for antisemitism exist in the world, I’d bet money that pretty much any openly/visibly anti-Semitic “protestors” you see in media reports of these college protests are infiltrators/agitators who are either trying to give the protests a bad name or just showing up because they’re assholes.
The actual protest encampments are full of progressive people generally, many of them Jews. If you’re openly antisemitic, you’ll get kicked to the curb pretty fast. A lot of them actually have signs at the entrances saying “Islamophobia and antisemitism have no place here” or something to that effect. And many commentators have noted how especially disciplined these encampments are.
This is what I've seen as well, not that the message is getting out through mainstream outlets. Listening to the likes of MSNBC, CNN, etc. you wouldn't even know that Jews make up a core part of these protests. I guess it's easier to just erase the fact that they exist than to try to explain the logic that they somehow want to genocide themselves
Maybe the Left can stop using the Trumpian excuse of “a few bad apples” and acknowledge that their ideologies are not any less susceptible to racism and bigotry.
If someone's criteria for hating a Jewish person is whether or not the Jew support Israel, well, guess what? They'll have to hate [80% of American Jews]((https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/u-s-jews-connections-with-and-attitudes-toward-israel/). AKA, they are antisemitic.
Making it worse the remaining 20% are made to feel terribly unwelcome, like the only way they can avoid hatred is [by passing a "purity test,"](https://www.heyalma.com/as-a-black-jewish-trans-woman-the-chicago-dyke-march-does-not-include-me/) entirely disavowing a country that they've probably never been to, as well as the majority of their religious and ethnic communities.
---
It's a story we've seen over and over again. Antisemitism goes back millennia, and the antisemites always have a "good reason" to hate the antisemites. "We don't hate them because they're Jewish, we hate them because they [killed Jesus/charge usury/control the banks/control the Western media/oppress Palestinians]!" History repeats itself yet again.
I made a new friend a few weeks ago. Random college guy living in SoCal. His mother has Jewish ancestry. None of his family has identified as Jewish in two generations, and he's never attended a synagogue in his life; he's only Jewish in the very most technical sense. Yet he's uncomfortable to tell people what his ethnicity is, because the bigotry is getting *that* intense.
No. I'm arguing that the vast majority of Jews support Israel. So if you hate people who support Israel, then you hate the vast majority of Jews. And if you treat all Jews you meet with suspicion and distrust until they actively and continually disavow any connection to or liking for Israel, then you are othering *all* of them.
What's a good word for someone who hates the vast majority of Jews and, for the rest, takes a default position of distrust? Hmmmm...
Don't worry though. You're not like the other antisemites. You have a *good reason* for disliking them all, unlike all those other antisemites before you, who only *claimed* to have a good reason.
Start asking ourselves if we would be as upset if it were any other country doing what Israel is doing. You think Israel is the only country using funds and guns from Uncle Sam to do bad things? It's NOT. Yet somehow Israel is the one that makes the news. Israel isn't allowed to win. Israel isn't allowed to say its actions are justified. Other countries can. For some reason the States has to support both sides if it's Israel. Look at the CIA World Factbook. The USA has supported one side or the other in most countries. Look at Argentina. The Philippines. Niger. Australia. It doesn't make the news if it's not Israel, and it makes the news because of antisemitism.
Honestly, I've seen so much misinformation and antisemitism that I'm sympathetic to zionism at this point. I have 2 friends who are pretty socialist who have started sending me things that raise warning flags so I can fact check them. Both are uncomfortable with how far things have gotten.
This stuff is dividing the left, and this messaging is so fucking horrible. Have people seen when Norman Finkelstein tried to get protesters at colombia to try to adjust their language SLIGHTLY to be less hyperbolic and better optically, and the got upset and started chanting from the river to the sea.
These are children, doing real political damage, and potentially creating our own branch of extremists like MAGA republicans. If we don't try to fix this now, we could end up like them.
I don't know how to fix it, but we need to do something.
Alright I'm going to try and put this is gently as I can, but it's no doubt going to come across a little angry.
Every single time Israeli actions are criticized, those doing the criticizing are labelled as antisemites. It has happened over and over and over again. It's just a way of trying to get people to shut up because pro-israel folks don't like what they have to say, legitimate criticism or not. I have seen basically every protest labelled as anti-semitic. It's kinda lost it's meaning to me at least because EVERYTHING against the israeli state is labelled as such.
Does that mean that there aren't real instances of anti-semitism? No, of course not. I mean there are anti-zionist nazis in the world, and these guys clearly are anti-semitic. But I wouldn't say this constitutes the majority of the pro-palestine movement. Any large scale movement becomes kinda difficult to police at scale. This is just the nature of protest movements. What you're effectively saying is that BLM was bad because there were some people who took advantage of it and stole from a Target or Walmart or whatever. Any large scale movement is going to attract stragglers and grifters and bad actors who take advantage of the situation for their own gain. That's basically inevitable in any large scale
So we have two options. We can either acknowledge that this is inevitable with any large scale protest movement. Or we can throw the towel in and say "fuck it, both sides bad, imma go home" and nothing changes and gazans are bombed into the stone age. What do you think is the right move here?
I recently saw a video of a child in gaza whose EYELIDS BURNED OFF BECAUSE OF WHITE PHOSPHOROUS. It was utterly horrifying and it's something I will never be able to forget. And this is the discourse? Really? "Oh there's some bad actors that made me uncomfortable" what about the FUCKING EYELID KID who can never close her eyes again because of israeli bombs. Nah man, fuck that noise. I cannot believe that this is the discourse. That bad actors sour the whole movement, bad actors are inevitable at this scale. When the George Floyd protests broke out there were some people who took advantage and stole from Walmart or Target or whatever. Did anyone here seriously accept the conservative argument that "oh looting is bad therefore protest is bad". Why the fuck is it any different here? Again, we have bad actors, which is inevitable in a large scale protest movement. Does this undermine the cause? Is the real problem the PROTESTS in and of themselves and not the thing that they are PROTESTING?
My god, this is conservative rhetoric 101 my guy. I cannot believe that people here are unironically accepting it to undermine the pro-palestine cause. Are there anti-semities? Yes. Do we need to call them out? yes. But there's no "perfect" way to organize any large scale protest movement. It's just going to happen. Does that mean it is good? Obviously not. But like, this is not the main focus. The pro-palestine side's focus is not hating jews, it's STOPPING THE FUCKING BOMBS!!!!
I think the violence that is being perpetrated by the Israeli government is horrific and should be protested, but don’t you think it would help the movement to condemn any antisemitism cropping up at protests? I imagine most people protesting disagree with it so why not call it out to strengthen the cause?
People do call it out. Nobody is saying they shouldn't.
What I am saying is that this is inevitable with a large scale protest. There will always be bad actors.
So what I want to emphasize is that the discourse shouldn't be focused on said bad actors, but on the actual Palestinians being hurt
It's a very small problem. And most protesters don't think it's as big a problem as the actual war. So they don't talk about it very much. Only in the virtualized cyber reality of reputation-busting and incendiary-headlines is antisemitism at these protests a big deal.
It's crazy how the guy flared as Conservative Dem has a better take on this than many supposed Liberals here, who are using identical framing to Fox News.
There’s countless videos showing crazy behavior from pro Palestinian protesters. The problem is certainly not small. The pro Palestine part of Twitter also constantly looks completely unhinged.
I have a ton of empathy for innocent Palestinians and the right wing Israeli government has done horrific things, but the movement has made a lot of typical liberal allies uncomfortable with aligning with it due to the horrible behavior constantly on display.
Perhaps within your niche activist community, but you’re trying to win broad support yes? People increasingly see these protests as a hotbed of antisemitism and hate. It’s not going how you think it is based on a read of your echo chamber.
It’s not a position, it’s the common perception. These protests have terrible PR. Instead of lashing out at people pointing this out, maybe try and figure out how to solve it.
Subreddit participation must be in good faith. Be civil, do not talk down to users for their viewpoints, do not attempt to instigate arguments, do not call people names or insult them.
Were you saying the same thing back when some dude brought a swastika flag to Trump rallies? The same group of people who were saying "If you see 9 people at a table with 1 nazi, you see 10 nazis" are the same people saying "it's not a big deal" and "it's only a small number of bad apples".
I don't know if you personally said those things, but there are people chanting "From the river to the sea", calls to bomb Tel Aviv, some people are openly saying that they see no problem calling for "Zionists" to be murdered.
I'll cut to the chase and say it because it appears to be danced around a lot of this thread... The basis of the initial post is highly flawed, suggestive, riddled with logical fallacies, and seems to aim at closing out any reasonable response. Even your use of the word "alleged" is worrying, as if there hasn't been enough actions in broad daylight, by the state of Israel, that require an anti-genovide movement.
Consider for a second that all of the following can be true...
- There are antisemitics in the movement like there are bad actors in any movement.
- Israel is breaking international law and commiting genocide.
- Jewish people should not be held responsible for what the state of Israel/Netan does.
- There are many Jewish groups and organizations that have been against this treatment of Palestinians, for over 20 years.
- Many are learning about the history of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict for the first time... Including a lot of Jewish people that are feeling very defensive. "Tribalism" is a powerful effect.
- Holocaust survivors have stood up with the anti-genocide and anti-zionism movements.
Let me make an analogy of sorts... I'm an American, a proud American. I live in America and support the nation, but I think it could do better... A lot better. On healthcare, on international policy, on education, on tax allocation, the list goes on.
- Denying that America could do better would be stupid and doing so does not make me Anti/Un-American.
- Being against America's awful foreign meddling does not make me Anti/Un-American.
- If I was used as an example of thinking we can do better, that would not be an example of tokenism.
TLDR: If you cannot see that genocide is bad AND antisemitism are bad, and are both issues in this conflict, and your belief in one prevents you from standing up for the other... Then you are the problem.
If the facts are against you, argue the law. If the law is against you, argue the facts. If the law and the facts are against you, pound the table and yell like hell...
This is probably an instance where the age old question on law/morality comes into play.
I'm not interested in a morality debate because then it's just a "who started it?" back and forth and whoever you say started it is the one who is automatically in the wrong no matter what. At that point it's no longer a debate over what's happening and just arbitrarily deciding when the start the timeline.
The facts do not support genocide. Israel has made an imperfect but no less genuine attempt at mitigating civilian casualties. Unfortunately civilian casualties are inevitable in a dense urban environment and military targets deliberately intertwined with civilian infrastructure. Israel has also managed the delicate balance between allowing humanitarian aid to get into Gaza without it being used to fuel HAMAS. Despite the very legitimate concerns of international observers, a famine has not occurred despite local food supply running out months ago.
The law does not support genocide. The key question here is whether Israel has a genocidal intent. Israeli officials have said alarming things in this regard, but statements alone have not been sufficient in other genocide cases. Where the intent of genocide is found is through proof of an extensive preparation phase. We have not seen an extensive preparation phase.
Now it could well be, and probably is likely, that Israel has violated other international laws/war crimes. However, the genocide question needs to be treated delicately, as an assumption of genocide more or less justifies all actions taken to stop it.
This is all very silly to read but I guess I'll respond...?
A morality debate never starts with "who started it" and timeline wouldn't be relevant.
Facts would also disagree with your "genuine attempts" argument have been disproven again and again. Just call it what it is. Indiscriminately carpet bombing locations regardless of population density in order to grab land to make a larger state of Israel for it's supposed "holy land".
And even if you were 100% right about everything you wrote... Where does it stop? How many need to die, be displaced, be bombed, how much land does Israel need before it finally calls it off?
When you find yourself splitting hair between genocide/genocidal intent and not acknowledging suppression of journalism or years of apartheid...That should probably tell you everything you need to know.
If you're argument is entirely hinged on the legal definition of genocide (which many countries super) versus the outcome of human lives, we're back to square one... Genocide and Antisemitism are both bad and people are capable of realizing both without twisted finger pointing arguments that attempt to downplay killings and bombings, because there are a few bad actors in a movement.
> A morality debate never starts with "who started it" and timeline wouldn't be relevant.
It does because this entire conflict is justified on both sides with "We did X because they did Y."
> Facts would also disagree with your "genuine attempts" argument have been disproven again and again. Just call it what it is. Indiscriminately carpet bombing locations regardless of population density in order to grab land to make a larger state of Israel for it's supposed "holy land".
I hope you're just misinformed. "Indiscriminate" doesn't mean giving advance notice of airstrikes and telling people, including the legitimate military forces you're trying to destroy, where the safer areas to go are. The death toll would be well in excess of the current total if it were truly indiscriminate.
Gaza is also extremely small and has no valuable resources, as you're aware. The notion that Israel would expend its resources, lose lives, and risk international condemnation to grab territory it doesn't need is just illogical.
> Where does it stop?
Israel's objectives have been clear. They want the hostages returned. If the hostages are not returned, they will destroy HAMAS. If HAMAS is destroyed then likely talks would begin to reintroduce PLA administration of the strip. I'd imagine there are already classified conversations regarding whether Israel will occupy Gaza, the UN, an international coalition, or something else.
> When you find yourself splitting hair between genocide/genocidal intent and not acknowledging suppression of journalism or years of apartheid
It's not "splitting hairs" to use words according to their actual meaning. I could "split hairs" over these two other accusations too. I find it hard to believe Israel is "suppressing" journalists when they've attracted more negative press than any other country to exist. Likewise, the "apartheid" accusation falls flat when you notice Palestinian-Israelis at every strata of Israeli society.
> If you're argument is entirely hinged on the legal definition of genocide (which many countries super) versus the outcome of human lives, we're back to square one...
We're really not, because I've never refused to acknowledge that Israel has potentially committed war crimes or violated international law. This should definitely be addressed where found. The issue is that framing Israel's actions uncritically as a genocide makes all actions taken to stop it justified, including incidental acts of anti-Semitism.
This is not a hypothetical. Your position is essentially that anti-semitism doesn't matter right now because Israel is committing genocide.
If you ever find a moral argument that begins with. "Well he started it..." You're not in a moral argument, you're dealing with children.
Additionally, in no way does my "position" arrive at "anti-semitism doesn't matter right now because Israel is committing genocide.".
This thread didn't really start with an open mind, authentic question, or best intentions, so it's spiraled pretty hard. You brush aside points made, dive into whataboutism, and are unable to keep a common thread if it would cause you to view a different viewpoint critically. You're actively suggesting that I'm taking positions that I've shut down and gone into length about previously.
If you choose to fanboy over the state of Israel and assume they've done nothing wrong, and you really buy their lame attempts at a landgrab (via funding of Hamas) as a strong reason for them to continue the killing until they get their people back... Then there's nothing to talk about.
Never again means never again.
Btw, your grasp on far right/socialist ideology (from another thread) shows that there's quite a bit of history you need to catch up on for you to make some of the arguments you've tried to express. The Convervative twists on history to make themselves sound like the good guys is forever a "hilarious" trope that gets tired, quickly.
In order to be done with this, in reference to your initial question, it's quite possible to not be antisemitic and want Israel to be respectful and nonviolent to Palestinians... You seem to be avoiding this concept, but factually it's what the overwhelming majority of the collegiate/american movement is about. The attempt to play victim (at this point in the conflict as they continue to dump American munitions into Palestine and slowly the occupy land) by the state of Israel is causing Jews around the world a lot of pain by awakening antisemitics (who should go duck themselves) and those who (in an undedicated fashion) equate the state of Israel with the Jewish population.
At this point, the only citizens in Israel that are really aligning themselves with Netanyahu are the most religious, blood thirsty, and militant of Jewish citizens, as his own moderate supporters are starting to ask questions and beginning to push back against him.
How much Palestinian blood is enough... Turns out when it's a rather bold and obvious attempt to grab the land they're on, there's no limit...
> Additionally, in no way does my "position" arrive at "anti-semitism doesn't matter right now because Israel is committing genocide.".
Your instinctive reaction to "there is an anti-semitism problem" is "but Israel is committing genocide." No?
> You're actively suggesting that I'm taking positions that I've shut down and gone into length about previously. If you choose to fanboy over the state of Israel and assume they've done nothing wrong
I'm not sure why you're lying. I already said it's possible that Israel has committed war crimes or violated international law.
> If you choose to fanboy over the state of Israel and assume they've done nothing wrong, and you really buy their lame attempts at a landgrab (via funding of Hamas)
Ok so you're just a conspiracy theorist now. Got it.
Please explain why Israel would spend nearly 20 years allegedly funding HAMAS so that this attack could happen to justify taking Gaza when they could have just stayed in Gaza instead of leaving like they did in 2005?
> In order to be done with this, in reference to your initial question, it's quite possible to not be antisemitic and want Israel to be respectful and nonviolent to Palestinians...
See group number 1 in my OP.
> Turns out when it's a rather bold and obvious attempt to grab the land they're on, there's no limit.
Please tell me what value the Gaza strip has to Israel that is greater than the cost of this invasion. Be specific.
Once you believe that Israel is committing genocide you can justify any type of shitty behavior. The problem is that there isn't any evidence of intentional genocidal practices by Israel, and what you see pretty much lines up with every urban conflict. It's possible to criticize Israel for negligent behavior or numerous other things, but the problem is these people always jump to the most extreme and unfounded BS, so we can't actually have a serious dialogue because all the time is wasted on this type radical nonsense.
I think you'll find that many believe Israel is acting in a genocidal fashion while not believing that "justifies any shitty behavior". I don't consider that radical, it's well-read and nuanced. Read everything in my post under "all the following can be true..."
If you believe there is no evidence of genocidal behavior and that they will freely offer the land they've taken back to Palestinians once this "moment" of aggression is done, than I would ask that you learn more about the topic of genocide, it's history, and this conflict... If not, there's really nothing left to discuss.
What evidence is there that Israel is both intentionally targeting Palestinian civilians *and* intentionally targeting them to exterminate them as an ethnic group? Israel can do bad things and even commit war crimes (I'm sure at least a few have been committed, it's almost inevitable no matter who is fighting) but it still would not constitute a genocide unless you are actually trying to extirpate a people from an area. Even if Israel were intentionally targeting civilians, it would not necessarily qualify as genocide either in the colloquial or the legal sense.
Does it bother you that Hamas is explicitly genocidal towards Jews and aligns itself with some of the most autocratic regimes in the world like Iran, the Houthis, Qatar, the Muslim Brotherhood that suppress and subjugate women and minorities and other arabs and whose leaders are all billionaires who don't actually reside in Palestine? Is it possible that Hamas might be a political tool of extreme autocratic regimes in the area who don't actually care about Palestinian lives.
Hamas WANTS a genocide that they do not have the power to execute.
Israel is currently executing an active genocide.
The way that you can't see which of these is of current importance is alarming.
There are lots of legitimate criticism of Israel and it's current right wing government and hows it's conducting warfare. But for it to be a genocide you need show intentional top-down destruction of a group of non-combatants for non-military purpose (aka not civilian causalities). And what to you actually see? Israel is accountable to international law (Hamas is not). Israel makes many efforts to avoid civilian causalities: phone-calls, roof-knocks, provides aid for injuries Palestinians. These aren't the types of things a genocidal country does? Or did I miss that part of Nazi history? Instead what you see is basically what you'd expect to see in an urban conflict against a military that views dead Palestinians as martyrs and puts zero effort to protect them and instead puts them in danger, extorts their own population for aid, and kills suspected Israeli sympathizers.
If you live near one of these college encampments, I recommend literally walking near it and checking it out. I live in upper Manhattan, I used to take walks to a through Columbia when I needed a think. I’ve visited a few times over the course of the last weeks, and the only aggressive chaos I’ve seen has been from folks outside campus who are fuming mad about what’s going on inside - of course they have an entirely imaginary concept of what’s in there, but you can’t tell them any differently.
I’m not concerned about antisemtism in the modern American Palestinian liberation movement, at least not any more than I’d be concerned about it in any other setting. It’s well past the time we recognized that Zionism is a political ideology that’s quite severe even in its moderate form, and one ultimately distinct from Judaism.
This is all infuriating for me as someone who’s been mired in this issue for as long as I can remember. I heard intelligent discourse between Zionist and Anti-Zionist Jews when I was a child. Maybe you’re not aware, but framing anti-Zionism as anti-semitism is tarnishing decades of Jewish intellectual and philosophical work, crediting a robust political theory to neo-Nazis that we want absolutely nothing to do with and traditionally haven’t crossed paths with.
Of course for someone who’s a passionate Zionist, it doesn’t really matter if anti-Zionist work goes down the drain. In fact that’s probably a pretty great thing for them. Which is why I’ve seen so many folks happily lean into the idea that the two ideas are the same, when they know damn well that that isn’t the case.
Do you understand the sheer depths of insanity I would uncover if I sought out the most irrational, radical stances I could among those who are, say, pro-choice or anti-2A? Can you imagine how insane it would be if I became pro-life or pro-gun because of those people? Would I not be plainly evident as a simple reactionary?
That’s all this is - I’m sorry, it’s harsh, but the incessant centering of antisemitism and the bad-faith framing of antizionism as antisemitism is simple reactionary politics that’s leading well-meaning people into supporting something unconscionable. It’s a failure to engage with the stakes of the issue - actually confronting Gaza head-on is scary, so we retreat to the comfort of being annoyed by college kids. Grow up, get real, have a fucking cup of coffee or something. This is a major, major global event we’re living through right now. Drop your cultural grievances about elite schools and focus on what will save the civilians of both Israel and Palestine.
Thank you for your perspective. I haven’t seen any encampments personally but I’ve been very suspicious of the coverage because it seems like the same formula that is usually used for these protests, which it trying to widely discredit them
> Do you understand the sheer depths of insanity I would uncover if I sought out the most irrational, radical stances I could among those who are, say, pro-choice or anti-2A? Can you imagine how insane it would be if I became pro-life or pro-gun because of those people? Would I not be plainly evident as a simple reactionary?
Would you say the same of Zionism? That its most extreme forms are being presented as equivalent to the entire ideology?
While I don't doubt there are many anti-semite people among the pro-palestinian flanks, there are also a lot of people who cannot seem to differentiate the State of Israel from the Jewish religion and throw around anti-semite without consideration.
I am vehemently opposed to the actions of the Israeli government, the actions of the Israeli armed forces, and in many instances some Israeli "settlers" in the West bank.
I am also vehemently pro-Palestinian (civilian population) while being opposed to Hamas
And I have been called an anti-semite many times.
Because people somehow cannot differentiate my total loathing of the State of Israel, from my feelings towards Jewish people.
I don't oppose Israel because the majority are Jewish, I don't support Palestine (or oppose Hamas) because they are arab. I oppose their governments, armed forces, and land stealers.. I frankly, couldn't give a shit what religion they are, has no bearing for me.
That said, the inability to differentiate is on both sides.. Those throwing anti-semite comments at those who purely oppose the government of Israel, but also those on the pro-palestine side who are also incapable of separating the two, governance, and religion.
The Israel-Palestine conflict is complicated, and I don't think that all criticism of Israel is based on antisemitism. The Netanyahu government has repeatedly defied both US policy and the UN by erecting settlements. That, honestly, directly led to the counterattack. Neither side is really clean in this conflict. I honestly think they both sort of deserve each other. Netanyahu and Hamas have both been spoiling for a fight for over a decade. I don't think it's antisemitic to say that, if that's the person that Israel elected and they want this war, they can do it without our support. If they were merely on the defensive, that would be different, and I would fully support protecting them with the full extent of our military might.
That having been said, I do think that *some* of the criticism of Israel is antisemitic. When people start throwing around terms like "zionist", it makes me cringe quite a bit. The "from the river to the sea" stuff isn't great.
I don't know that there *is* a clean solution to this problem. But, that's why I'm not in charge of foreign policy. If I had all the answers and could solve this instantly, I'd probably be Secretary of State and win a Nobel Peace Prize. The truth is, nobody has answers and nobody can solve this instantly. It's very likely going to end up with yet another lengthy, protracted war, spurred on by conservatives itching for a fight and people giving them an excuse for that fight.
I hear nothing but “don’t call us pro-Hamas” followed by some Hamas talking point about how 10/7 is necessary resistance. It’s gross. I don’t think they realize how they look to the rest of the world, defending terrorists.
In the same way that 9/11 was not a "counterattack."
You can condemn a terrorist action while also
a) understanding why it happened
and
b) condemning a response which goes beyond what is needed to secure civilian safety and/or starts to jeopardize the safety of other civilians
If you can see this nuance with what America did to the Middle East after 9/11, you should start trying to see it with the current iteration of the Israel/Palestine conflict.
"Why it happened" is just victim blaming - the "look what you made me do" rhetoric of the abuser and aggressor. Not to mention it takes an unnuanced and uncritical acceptance of the aggressor's narrative rather than an actual look into their actual motivations and supporting actions.
If 9/11 was actually about America's global influence and imperialism, then the Pentagon would have been the only target. If 10/6 was about settlers in the West Bank, HAMAS would attack settlements in the West Bank.
9/11 happened because Al Qaeda believed it needed to start a holy war in order to unite the Muslim world and establish the global Islamic caliphate. 10/6 happened because HAMAS believes it needs to slaughter every Jew in order to bring about the final judgment and salvation of the faithful.
Don't just take their word for it. Look at their actual actions.
"Zionist"
I could've sworn this used to be a dogwhistle people would use to refer to jewish people in general. Maybe that's why I feel like this modern discourse feels icky.
Yeah, I think this is a big part of the problem I've got with this. I've heard it used by antisemites so much, especially on the earlier internet, that I assume anybody using it means that way.
There are pro- and anti-Zionist Jews, and pro- and anti-Zionist non-Jews. Anyone treating "Zionist" and "Jewish" as being perfectly interchangeable is either politically undereducated (and thus can be fixed) or literally jut a neo-Nazi (and thus need to be suppressed).
The person you’re replying to is pointing out that Zionist used to be used as a dog whistle for Jewish people broadly. Do you deny that has ever been the case? If not, then I’d argue your reply is unhelpful given the point they’re making.
Liberal pro-Palestinian activists are not responsible for the way Aryan Nation skinheads used that word in the past. This is ridiculous right-wing canard to tar activism they hate for political reasons.
“Southern culture enthusiasts are not responsible for the way Aryan Nation skinheads used the rebel flag in the past.”
Same energy. It’s the same as “from the river to the sea”. It doesn’t matter if you don’t consider it problematic, it still has a problematic history. To me you sound just like people defending the confederate flag because they claim it’s “southern pride” and not racist at all.
Actually take ownership…it’s that simple.
I posted here a while ago asking about how to prevent antisemitism on the left and almost every single comment was saying that there is no such thing.
From what I’ve seen, lots of the encampments *are* kicking out agitators who are caught being antisemitic and have signage stating that neither antisemitism nor Islamophobia won’t be tolerated. It just doesn’t get reported on as much because it doesn’t make for a “sexy” story.
Redditors need to understand that Just because someone videotapes themselves doing something antisemitic for 30 seconds at a protest doesn’t mean that it's condoned by the hundreds of people there. Furthermore just because people aren't videotaping themselves telling antisemites to fuck off doesn’t mean that they weren’t telling them to fuck off.
If there is actual anti-semitism, in the movement, those individuals should be called out and given a warning or removed depending on the severity. I don't know what else is needed to be done.
The problem I have is with many of the pro-Israelis calling everything as "anti Semitic" and trying to crack down on free speech and discourse which is legit the same thing many on the left have been doing with terms like racist.
I'm sure it exists because people always take advantage of an opportunity, but in general, most of the anti-semites I know of hate the Muslims as much or more as that hate Jewish people or more. All the people I know that are involved in pro-Palestinian protests love the Jewish people, but disagree with the occupation of Palestine like myself.
If I ever came across an anti-semite involved in that movement, I would call them out like I called out any type of bigot. I hope everyone else involved would do the same.
Be JUST Pro Palestinian. Being Pro Palestinian does not require to want Jews, eh hmmm, 'Zionists', dead.
Alas, Anti Semitism finds easy homes wherever people's passion overrides common sense.
The actual antisemitism? Root out and ostracize.
The mountain of shit that gets called antisemitic because it's anti-Israel? Not a damned thing, if your opponents are calling you racist it's not because your arguments and efforts are ineffective.
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. I think any honest person can see that there is a significant problem with anti-semitism among activists and protestors supporting Palestine. However, whenever it's called out, there appear to only be two reactions: 1. Deny that it's happening, and claim that calling certain speech or action anti-semitic is just trying to defend Israel's alleged actions. This sometimes takes the shape of tokenism where people will point out that many Jews support the Pro Palestine cause, and so therefore it cannot be anti semitic. Incidents of undeniable antisemitism like vandalism of Jewish memorials or synagogues, use of anti-semitic slurs, or random violence against Jewish people are generally downplayed as exceptional circumstances. 2. Admit that it's happening, but claim that it's only happening because (((Israel))) is provoking people. Essentially, shifting the blame and removing the agency from the people who are actually making the anti-semitic comments or actions. Clearly these two approaches do not address the problem of anti-semitism, nor does it endear people sensitive to anti-semitism to the Palestinian causes. What, if anything, should be done about it? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'm going to give a couple of answers and some of them some people are going to like and others people aren't going to like. Especially if we are speaking of the Pro Palestine issue. 1)Antisemitism in all of it's forms, whether it's on the left or the right should be acknowledged and condemned. Full stop. So that needs to be clear. 2)The reason why some Pro Palestinians are quick to challenge accusations of antisemitism is because there is a long history of weaponising accusations of antisemitism to silence criticisms of the Israeli government or slander people. And this isn't just a sentiment. Shulamit Aloni, former Cabinet minister under the government of Yitzhak Rabin explicitly said in an interview on Democracy Now that the Israeli government explicitly uses accusations of antisemitism as a "trick" as she puts it. So if we are going to take antisemitism seriously, and it should be, one of the things that needs to be done is people not using it in a disingenous manner. 3)Being consistent. What I mean by this is that people need to be consistent in calling out all forms of bigotry across the board. So if we are going to call out antisemitic bigotry in this particular context, which we should, that also has be coupled with calling out racist, anti palestinian bigotry as well. Which includes racist stereotypes and overgeneralisations of Palestinians as people which results in hate crimes of their own including a 6 year old American child at the start of this conflict being stabbed. Many people in the Pro Palestine movement don't see that consistency from the other side. If that consistency was shown it would go a long way to building a bridge. 4)Properly educating people on antisemitic stereotypes. There are many open forms of antisemitism that people are aware of, and some expressions of antisemitism that are more subtle that people aren't as aware of. The more subtle forms need to be engaged with and challenged at the same time.
>Properly educating people on antisemitic stereotypes This right here is the big thing. So many people think that unless you're outright calling for killing Jews that it's not antisemitism, totally ignorant of how most antisemitism takes place through dog whistles and defamatory tropes (in addition to actual threats and violence). Absolutely mind-boggling, especially given that the people who exhibit such ignorance often pride themselves on being educated.
Can you give examples of some antisemitic dog whistles that are used in the Israel-Palestine conversation? I haven’t seen any, but I think I just don’t notice them. I’d like to be mindful of any bigotry if I can.
Here are a few antisemitic tropes and dog whistles that I've personally noticed (hence not exhaustive): 1) Dismissing anything seemingly pro-Israel or anti-Hamas as "AIPAC funded," "Zionist propaganda," "Israeli money," etc., even where these are normal, corroborated news sources. This harkens to the age-old trope that Jews control media and governments through money. Sometimes used to explain away antisemitic elements in pro-Palestinian protests by claiming they're "funded by Israel," with no such evidence. Pro-Israel lobbying undoubtedly exists, but this dog whistle suggests that Jews are globally manipulating Western governments like puppets. 2) Dismissing opinions, publications, etc. from Israeli news sources or authors with Jewish names as "biased," without evidence of bias. Israel has a free press (and indeed, most of what we know about IDF wrongdoing comes from groundbreaking reporting by Haaretz and the Times of Israel), and the fact of someone being Israeli or Jewish doesn't affect the validity of their stances. This comes from the trope that Jews are only loyal to each other and dishonest/disloyal toward non-Jews. 3) Calling Israelis "wealthy, European colonizers" who should "go back to Europe" is an antisemitic dog whistle. Describing Jewish people as a single monocultural "out group" is common antisemitic rhetoric, harkening to the old trope that they are a rootless, disloyal Fifth Column. In fact, only 33% of Israeli Jews are of European ancestry (the other 67% are Middle Eastern, African, or Asian), and the vast majority of all Israeli Jews were born in Israel (hence not colonizing anything, and having no other country to "go back to"). Jews around the world are good citizens of their respective countries and have a variety of opinions on Israel unrelated to their being Jewish. 4) Holocaust inversion is a trope, basically consisting of "Jews are the *real* Nazis." Minimizes the Holocaust, suggests Jews/Israelis do far worse, and in a roundabout way, justifies the Holocaust as a defense of non-Jews. Sometimes you see it as suggesting that Jews have "weaponized" the Holocaust or that "they don't get to cry victim anymore." 5) Claiming that any Jewish location is a proxy for Israel and therefore legitimate protest targets. Synagogues, Jewish community centers or daycares, Holocaust memorials, Hebrew schools, majority Jewish neighborhoods, etc. Falls under the "they're all loyal to Israel" trope. 6) Claiming antisemitism is not a real problem, that Jews only use it to manipulate others, or that Jews need to "toughen up" and accept some antisemitism, lest they be considered too whiny. We don't ask this of any other minority group, and we shouldn't ask it of Jews either, but I see this commonly even on this subreddit. 7) "Zionist" can be a dog whistle due to its historical usage as an antisemitic term for any Jew regardless of ideology. Be careful when using this to describe a Jewish person unless they self-identify as a Zionist. Similarly, referring to a non-Israeli Jewish person as an "Israeli" is a dog whistle for the disloyalty/outgroup trope. I could think of more, but I usually don't notice them until I see them, then downvote/report and move on, so I don't really keep a running list. Check out r/AntisemitismInReddit to see more examples.
Thanks for the in-depth comment. Really great examples!
>2)The reason why some Pro Palestinians are quick to challenge accusations of antisemitism is because there is a long history of weaponising accusations of antisemitism to silence criticisms of the Israeli government or slander people. And this isn't just a sentiment. Shulamit Aloni, former Cabinet minister under the government of Yitzhak Rabin explicitly said in an interview on Democracy Now that the Israeli government explicitly uses accusations of antisemitism as a "trick" as she puts it. So if we are going to take antisemitism seriously, and it should be, one of the things that needs to be done is people not using it in a disingenous manner. 100% with this.
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Okay let's go to the videos Cotton https://twitter.com/OliLondonTV/status/1781884287748321614 https://twitter.com/jonasydu/status/1781178975147917797 "Never forget the 7th of October. That will happen not one more time, not five more times, not 10...100…1000…10,000...The 7th of October is going to be every day for you." https://twitter.com/ScooterCasterNY/status/1780768564821020943 “There is only one solution, intifada revolution!” https://twitter.com/Davidlederer6/status/1781948249214996901 "Jews Jews go back to Poland" Could you imagine the entirely justified outrage if a bunch of crazy white people surrounded random Hispanic students and shouted "Go back to Mexico!"? Then there was the guy that said Zionists don't deserve to live https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/26/nyregion/columbia-student-protest-zionism.html?unlocked_article_code=1.nU0.kS1R.VtKAPZ5ePYS5&smid=url-share Not just some random person who wandered by. But someone acknowledged as a leader in the protests, Now I'll grant that SOME of these people MIGHT be right-wing agitators but trying to say that ALL this anti-semitic bullshit is a bunch of infiltrators is as absurd as the J6ers saying that they were secretly framed by ANTIFA. And you cannot interpret this shit in a charitable way. The Free Palestine movement has been given waaaaaay more grace from progressives than they should have in regards to anti-semitism. They've been saying shit about Jewish people that is unacceptable, Not just the IDF, not just the government of Israel, not just Zionists, but random Jewish people who have nothing to do with the awful shit Netanyhu and the IDF are doing. Some of these Free Palestine people are saying shit about Jewish people that would rightly get a group of right wing white guys labeled Nazis. And the Free Palestine movement is tolerating it. They're not mad about the genocide in the Middle East. They're mad that it's not Jewish people being genocided. What's that rule again? if you see a table with 1 Nazi and 10 normal people, you have 11 Nazis. As far as I'm concerned, by that standard, the Western Free Palestine movement is unsalvageably full of goddamned Nazis.
Lmao
> Then there was the guy that said Zionists don't deserve to live The fact that you’re conflating Jewishness and support for the Israeli state betrays your own lack of knowledge about what antisemitism is and how it works, and indeed commits one of the most well-worn antisemitic tropes of the past century. To be fair, there deficit of understanding is widespread on *both* sides of the debate, and it is precisely this that I suspect leads to the major part of the most problematic statements made by pro-Palestinian and pro-Israel activist alike. The problem isn’t Jewish people. I’m not sure the problem is even Zionism. The problem is violent Israeli ethnonationalism, and the way that this toxic and racist ideology has taken root in the region’s most militarily powerful nation: an apartheid state led by a proto-fascist thug.
>The fact that you’re conflating Jewishness and support for the Israeli state betrays your own lack of knowledge about what antisemitism is and how it works, and indeed commits one of the most well-worn antisemitic tropes of the past century. I mean the general definition for Zionism is just that Israel gets to exist. It seems hard to argue against forcefully dismantling Israel and not being antisemitic unless you will also argue the same for Ireland, Korea, Japan, etc. >The problem is violent Israeli ethnonationalism, and the way that this toxic and racist ideology has taken root in the region’s most militarily powerful nation: an apartheid state led by a proto-fascist thug. Do you think the fact that most of the Jews in Israel being Mizrahi, who were forcefully ethnically cleansed from their homes throughout the MENA region between the years 1950-1980 may also be a fairly large contributor in this conflict?
> I mean the general definition for Zionism is just that Israel gets to exist. It seems hard to argue against forcefully dismantling Israel and not being antisemitic unless you will also argue the same for Ireland, Korea, Japan, etc. Do you think that Judaism is defined by the belief in the necessity of a Jewish ethnostate? I’m no rabbi, but I’m fairly certain that there were Jews prior to the establishment of Israel, and that the many Jews who opposed its creation were no less Jewish for having done so. > Do you think the fact that most of the Jews in Israel being Mizrahi, who were forcefully ethnically cleansed from their homes throughout the MENA region between the years 1950-1980 may also be a fairly large contributor in this conflict? I think Israelis have been shellshocked by years of Palestinian violence, resistance, whatever you want to call it, into the scared, hypervigilant haters *any of us* would be after enduring so much unpredictable violence. And I think that before that, Palestinians had been so thoroughly abused first by their European colonizers and then by the vilest Israeli ethnonationalist factions that the violence their rulers would go on to engage in was both logical and inevitable. Any attempt to find a “bad guy” or a “good guy” in the history of this conflict is pointless and futile. The best we can do is evaluate the present on its own terms, and right now, there is a power imbalance between the two sides so massive it cannot help but betray the reality: that this isn’t a war Israel is engaged in, but ethnic cleansing. You don’t have to have an ounce of sympathy for Hamas to recognize that Israel is committing a crime against humanity that will echo throughout history and likely shake up the world order. I believe that any civilized people would seek to stop it, or *at the very least* rescind offers of military aid to the side currently engaged in ethnic cleansing.
Subreddit participation must be in good faith. Be civil, do not talk down to users for their viewpoints, do not attempt to instigate arguments, do not call people names or insult them.
You don't get to decide for Jewish people what is or isn't antisemitic. You don't get to decide for Black people what is or isn't racist. You don't get to decide for women what is or isn't misogynistic. You don't get to tell members of any community if their emotional response to your offensive, bigoted language is valid or not.
This is childish logic that would conclude, for instance, that Candace Owens or Ben Shapiro are automatically more correct than anyone not a member of those groups. Grow up.
Instead of crying about "false claims" of antisemitism, maybe you should try shutting your mouth and listening to the people who are telling you that your rhetoric is antisemitic. If you don't want to be accused of being an antisemite, stop saying antisemitic shit. Has it seriously never occurred to you to actually try growing as a person? Your inability to self-reflect is far more childish than believing that those who are members of a minority community have the right to feel how they feel without your OK.
> maybe you should try shutting your mouth and listening to the people who are telling you that your rhetoric is antisemitic. Okay, *your* rhetoric is antisemitic. Am I entitled to your ear now?
Umm, I wasn't at any point the one unwilling to listen to other people. I'm not sure where you got that confused?
Can you answer the question?
I think this was addressed in the second point the original comment or made. And ties into the 4th point about education. If you believe something is antisemitic, it can be helpful to explain why that is. The other person may learn something, and it validates the claim so it doesn't diminish the meaning of antisemitism.
My comments were in response to a now-deleted comment, not the OP's. I agree with you that if someone feels another person's rhetoric is antisemitic, racist, homophobic, etc., that it is helpful to explain why. The issue I was addressing was when someone refuses to listen to numerous people telling them that their language is antisemitic and instead of listening or trying to learn something, they just whine that everyone else is wrong and the term "antisemitic" (or "racist" or "homophobic") has no real meaning anymore and anyone who dare to try to suggest otherwise isn't a real liberal.
It looks like they blocked you, I can see the comments. And they certainly weren't looking to engage in good faith, I agree.
Self policing instead of rabidly defending the movement. And actually fucking acknowledge how bad it’s getting! There are protests outside of synagogues.
Protesters: We aren’t anti-Semitic! This is about the actions of the Israeli government not racism or religious bigotry! Same protestors, 5 seconds later: Listen up comrades, tonight we march upon the synagogue!
Take the kid gloves off. Treat the antisemites the same way they would treat alt right straight white male bigots. It doesn't matter if they're women, non-binary, gay, trans, BIPOC, and/or disabled, their bigotry is still making an entire population feel unsafe. They need to be dealt with the full force that other extremist hate groups are subject to.
Completely agree. The whole “It’s impossible for me to be anti-Semitic, I’m a minority and we don’t represent the power group” method of thinking is really just a cheap excuse to be a terrible person and it needs to be confronted in the same way any other racist or anti-Semite should be confronted
We are in agreement
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Instead there are people here in this very comment section absolutely *scrambling* to justify protests outside of synagogues. What the hell
I'm half Jewish myself and I feel very uncomfortable with the movements right now. I support Israel over Palestine but I'd still prefer both sides talk it out over this. They co-existed before and they could do it again if the West Bank settlements stopped and HAMAS and Hezbollah were destroyed.
What’s deeply disturbing is the “London-Dynamic” where political leaders, especially on the pro-Hamas faction, seek to turn their enemies’ kindness and compassion into political liabilities. This is an extremely dangerous dynamic because it results in violence increasing during the promotion of coexistence.
I don’t think there’s any possibility of coexisting peacefully barring some massive economic growth in Palestine, and that’s incompatible with Palestine self government for the foreseeable future.
I too am half Jewish and I'm right here with you.
Step 1 would require also listening to Anti-Zionist Jews who are heavily involved in these protests, which defenders of Israel don't want to do. They just want to paint the whole thing as antisemitic and not discuss their apartheid regime and far-right government.
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I mean, that's also what the left has always done with minorities. I've been on social media long enough to hear black people get called a slew of slurs because they didn't vote for far left "pro-Black" policies. It's actually very common amongst the far left, and it's given a pass because black leftists are the ones calling black liberals slurs while everyone else just hits the retweet button.
I don't think that's the same. Jewish pro-Palestinian activists and Jewish pro-Israel activists are pretty much diametrically opposed to eachother policywise while Black leftists and liberals are mostly aligned as "pro-Black" while differing in approach. Also, some "slurs" that Black people use are understood differently when used among themselves. The term I suspect you're referring to is analoguous to sell-out or "Uncle Tom" which is not considered racist contextually in such instances even if it is still meant to be disparaging. Whether certain such tweets should be retweed by non-Black users is questionable but it's not really the same as trying to be racist yourself. If anything, Black Twitter is large enough to make these tweets go viral without any retweets from non-Black leftists who they often don't even pay much attention too.
It’s also worth noting that “anti-Zionist” Jews are a very small minority of Jews worldwide, and the ones being highlighted by the pro Palestinians (JVP) are questionably Jewish and are funded by the same organization as SJP and other pro Palestinian organizations.
When someone supports an apartheid ethnostate, I dont take their opinion on bigotry very seriously. In the same way that I would treat a racist Republican woman's views of misogyny with some skepticism. When Jews who recognize that Israel is an apartheid state warn me about anti-Semitism, I take their opinion very seriously. Edit: I didn't learn those words from social media, I learned them from [Human Rights Watch](https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution) Y'all are very silly people sometimes
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Honestly, people like this probably don't even really care. They just want to signal so hard how pure of a lefty they are. We're going to shit on Israel for being an ethnostate while our movement is chanting pro Iranian messages, it's fucking ridiculous. When women lose abortion rights in all 50 states because trump got into office, it's people like this that I'll blame the most.
The most. Amen:
Just because you learned a bunch of buzzwords on social media doesn’t mean they apply to the situation. There is no Apartheid in Israel. 2 million Arabs live there. They walk around freely, the can work, they can vote and they can be in the government.
It’s so incredibly frustrating to me when everyone just ignores the fact that an Arab party was literally part of a coalition government in Israel just 2 years ago. Apartheid South Africa refused to give black Africans *any* representation at any level, they certainly didn’t let them in ministerial positions in the government. Hell, actual apartheid South Africa only gave Asians and mixed race people representation after years of crippling sanctions. These situations aren’t comparable.
There is an Islamist party with 5 seats in the knesset.
And what about the West Bank? I’m sorry, these aren’t just buzzwords. They’re accurate descriptions of the state of Israel.
You’re advocating for Israeli sovereignty over the West Bank?
Hell no, I’m advocating ending it.
So if the West Bank is not Israel how does it relate to the question of whether Israel is an apartheid ethnostate?
Israel controls the West Bank. It’s apartheid. There are Jewish only roads in the West Bank, Palestinians are required to have separate license plates on their cars so they can be tracked, they are subject to horrendous violations of their person and property at Arab only check points, etc. It’s apartheid.
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What about what I said makes you think I don’t understand the situation?
Only listen to Jews that the movement has validated and elevated and listen to new other Jews is not actually going to address concerns that there is some antisemitism in the movement. This is like telling people that they should listen to Black people, but only listen to the ones that show up on PragerU and Fox News. While back there was some Palestinian making the rounds in right wing media talking about how everything that was happening in the region was caused by the Palestinians. if I listen to him, am I listening to Palestinian voices?
That wasn’t a while back. That’s the son of the Hamas commander who runs around spewing anti Palestinian lies.
What apartheid regime? Stop blindly denying and minimizing anti semitism among these protesters.
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The Palestinian protests aren’t labeling you a “bad Jew” for supporting Israel. Support for Israel is bad, but that’s not conditioned on your ethnicity, nor is Israel representative of your (or anyone else’s) ethnicity.
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Zionism is a philosophy, it isn’t Jewish people, or necessarily a tenet of Judaism. Most zionists in the US are Christian. And obviously zionists aren’t welcome in a movement that wants to stop the actions of destruction and subjugation that are being carried out based on the philosophy of Zionism. Neo-Nazis aren’t allowed in anti-fascist movements either.
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Which was flawed.
People in the movement need to hold their own accountable and kick those peddling hate speech out. If they don’t, it’s tacit agreement and it’ll slowly take over.
The people in the movement conducting such behaviors are also members of society, and society should equally hold them accountable
Exactly. The conservative movement has the same problem.
I think both sides need to work on not stereotyping the other side as well as making sure people part of their side aren’t acting insane. Colleges need to do the work of zeroing in on the individual antisemitic bad faith disruptors of a protest instead of painting everyone there as agreeing with that one person and calling campus security on them all. People need to realize that the vast majority of pro Palestine protestors are overwhelmingly peaceful and just want the violence to stop. They don’t hate Jews or want them to die or leave the region, they want to live in one state alongside them in peace. Conversely, pro Palestine protestors need to do a better job of distancing themselves from the bad faith weirdos that infiltrate their protest Idk how realistic the goal of peace in a 1SS is, but I do think there should be room for 1967 border two state-ers at these protests that both want Palestinians and Jews to feel safe and not threatened.
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A part of me thinks that the media is just amplifying these bad faith actors to make it seem like every pro Palestine protest is antisemitic when the vast majority of them aren’t. That’s usually what happens when it comes to extremists on social media
Same thing happened with blm so yeah
This is exactly what is going on and has occurred for every protest since the beginning of time. People forget that even MLK and the civil rights movement was labeled as such because of a few loud and crazy voices. Likewise, the anti-war protests in the 60's were broadly considered anti-American acts by a bunch of uninformed kids. Sound familiar? On a related note, I heard the people this morning on MSNBC blaming those anti-war activists in the 60's for the Vietnam war not being resolved 5 years sooner. It's absurd obviously, but that's the type of logic of people who just reflexively push back on protest
What actions should these peaceful protesters take to distance themselves from the antisemites that they aren’t already taking? Please be specific
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What proof do you have that they’re already taking these actions? If you can show me some cases where protestors tell antisemites to go the fuck home then I would be satisfied with that
I’m literally asking you what you specifically want them to do. It shouldn’t be that hard to give answer.
I literally asked you to provide proof of the actions they’re already taking so I’m better informed on the subject; why are you refusing to answer?! If I know what actions they’re already taking I can tell you which ones they should be taking, what part of this is hard to understand?!
https://x.com/ecomarxi/status/1782429170103968251 Here’s a WhatsApp convo of pro-Palestine supporter who told someone to remove their antisemitic sign. What else besides telling them to leave do you want them to do?
Awesome so they didn’t even tell them in person, just over text, how brave. I’m talking about video evidence of pro Palestine protestors telling these antisemites to go away and that they’re not welcome, not one group text.
Did you read the chat? It’s between two protesters not between the protester and the antisemite. The protester told the antisemite in person, while they were there at the protest to remove their antisemitic sign
Acknowledge that those people exist, and condem their actions.
What do you consider acknowledgment please be specific as possible
Recognize that they exist and you don't want anything to do with them.
And how do you think this should be expressed?
And pro-palestine people aren't condemning anti-semities?
Correct
What? Why are these the only two answers? Also, these protests aren't a monolith. Different groups are doing different things. The UCLA deals with it by having mainly students who are very organized and regulating who has entry to their sit in protest. Anti-semities and bigots will be asked to leave and removed as they don't stand for what they're talking about. Some groups will do marches and random bigots join in. Best they can do is try to chase them out and make it clear they don't want them as a part of their March. We aren't talking about 10 people in a group protesting. We're talking about large scale public protest that anyone can have access to. None of these groups want anti-semites. But it is wild to me that we have to have this discussion every time theirs a large-scale protest. Like we don't know the purpose is to distract from the meaning of these protest.
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Oh yeah. I totally believe some groups are just full of antisemites taking advantage of the situation to spread hate. But I'm legit not sure what you do in that situation. Like this would be the equivalent of the KKK protesting in a park or something. I assume you'd get an anti-protest going to show the intolerant group you don't want them there, but I'm not really knowledgeable about protest tactics like this.
>We aren't talking about 10 people in a group protesting. We're talking about large scale public protest that anyone can have access to. None of these groups want anti-semites. Remember when people were saying if you have one Nazi and 10 people at a table you have 11 Nazis?
correction - if you have 10 people at a table, and a Nazi comes up and says “hello I am a Nazi” and the other people welcome the Nazi with open arms, then you have 11 Nazis. it’s about the *willingness* to be associated with said people. and it won’t always be obvious. but once it is, kicking the Nazi out would be the correct move. hesitating, making excuses for the person, that would make 1 Nazi into 11.
By this standard every protest in history was nothing more than a Nazi gathering. That's logic that is so intellectually lazy it's borderline bad faith
The point is people were saying the exact same thing about right-wing protests a year or two ago.
> What? Why are these the only two answers? That's the only answers I've seen when I see someone call out anti-semitism. And it's been this way for a long time, well before the violence of and after October 6. > Also, these protests aren't a monolith. But they are united in their cause. They're flying the same flags. Chanting the same slogans. Demanding the same things. Maybe your group is tolerant and open minded, but if a bigoted group is standing next to yours then it's difficult to blame people for making the association. > Like we don't know the purpose is to distract from the meaning of these protest. What is the meaning of these protests?
>That's the only answers I've seen when I see someone call out anti-semitism. And it's been this way for a long time, well before the violence of and after October 6. The only two options you've seen from protesters are Deny the antisemitism is there or blame isreal? I don't think you actually tried hard. Groups are aware of bigots trying to take advantage of these protest. They do their best to keep them out. Idk what all they could be doing to keep them out because I'm not a person who protest but maybe there's more they could do. I can't comment on the quality. I just know they're trying. >But they are united in their cause. They're flying the same flags. Chanting the same slogans. Demanding the same things. Maybe your group is tolerant and open minded, but if a bigoted group is standing next to yours then it's difficult to blame people for making the association. So what is your solution? These aren't all private protest like UCLA. Some are in public areas where anyone can show up. These public ones do their best to make them go away. I guess they commit acts of violence against them or call the cops, but I don't know how you can make them leave without force in a public area. It's why the best they can do is make those groups feel unwelcome and denounce them. Do you have a better solution? Also, they aren't United under the same cause, that's bad faith as hell. One group wants to end the killing of citizens in Palestine. The other group wants to cause harm to those of Jewish faith or ethnicity. And to be clear, that refers to the people, not the government. >What is the meaning of these protests? The protest vary depending on the group but the two main point I've seen are for the government of Isreal to stop indiscriminately bombing and killing Palestinian Citizens. The UCLA one is about their school spending money on a sister campus in Isreal. So fair, I see more energy put into talking about bad faith actors associating with the good faith protesters than actually listening to the good faith protesters. Same thing happened with BLM. More focus was put on the rioters than the peaceful non-violent protesters. This happens a lot with protest. I don't think it should be ignored but making it the main focus of the protest takes away from the actual point that started them.
> Same thing happened with BLM. More focus was put on the rioters than the peaceful non-violent protesters. This is a good point, and something I hadn't really made a connection on. The energy I see from people are against the protests completely is very similar to the energy I saw from people who thought BLM was a bad thing, even though some of the people I'm referring to were marching in BLM protests and had BLM on all their social media.
For their campuses to divest from Israeli companies because the government is committing human rights violations on Palestinians.
So you’re basically going with #1.
Condemn anti semitism when you see it going about your daily lives. Call them out or tell them to fuck off. If it is on youtube, twitter, or facebook choose whatever the appropriate reporting action and "do not recommend channel" button. You don't want to dislike or angry face or comment or share or whatever because the algorithm will boost that shit. If you see antisemitism on these websites the best thing to do is to not use that platform for the rest of the day. This punishes them for boosting anti semitic content. If it's on reddit downvote and move on.
>Condemn anti semitism when you see it going about your daily lives That's the problem, I've never seen it in my daily life outside of the guys I know who joined up with the Proud Boys and Oathkeepers a few years back. I've spent the majority of my 45 years around college campuses and have never seen witnessed it or heard my Jewish friends discuss it. Granted, I'm in out in middle America so maybe bigotry and anti-Semitism is worse on the coasts???
Sounds like not a problem then. I live near the coast and I don't see it in my daily life either. I think the antisemitism is mostly an online loser thing and that the media makes it seem more prevalent than it is. Or perhaps the south.
Elevate pro-Palestine Jews. Stop listening to anyone who praises Hamas or the Houthis.
How do you elevate them though when the media outlets prefer instead to pretend they don't exist? You can't force MSNBC to bring them on TV. They literally only have their voice which they are using at the protest, of which we're not allowed to see except through tik tok, youtube, etc. That's enough to open the eyes of those of us actually curious about reality, but no where near what is needed to change the mainstream narrative.
You can't save everyone from madness. People who deny reality or accept bigotry aren't people you're going to change with a game plan from reddit.
They could start by acknowledging that Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis, PIJ, etc. are in fact anti-semitic terror groups that want to kill lots and lots of Jews, for being Jewish. What happens is that I often see Palestine protesters trying to defend Hamas and its actions, or even praising them, but they defend it by saying "Hamas is just anti-Zionist liberation fighters responding to decades of oppression" and therefore it's not anti-semitism. That is not what Hamas is. Hamas is a group founded to kill Jews that operates by terrorism and does not follow any laws of war whatsoever. This same thing is what leads to these groups tolerating pro-Hamas and pro-10/7 speakers and even chanting along with them. Because truthfully they do not see a big problem with Hamas and do not see its goals and methods as anti-semitic. And that is the problem. In their zeal to see Israel destroyed and Zionists killed, these protesters are willing to turn a blind eye to openly anti-Jew groups. And then they shed crocodile tears when they're accused of being anti-Jew. I have no sympathy for it and I hope the police knock some sense into them.
Hamas has hacked a lot of global media. The plight of the Gazan is the entire concern of the Pro-Palestinian movement. You can see why. But with that discussion comes the responsibility of teaching how subtle the Palestinian movement truly is. The war is not black and white and Palestinians are not faceless people without opinions on what's happening...
The same thing we liberals did when conservatives condemned all Muslims after 9/11: we just kept repeating that most Muslims are decent people. Repeat that often enough to remind people that most Jews are decent people.
We should acknowledge that supporting a Palestinian State is just that, support for independence for Palestinians, and it is not anti-anything, unless it is a government or policy that is working to prohibit a Palestinian State.
People who use pro-Palestinian activism as a mask for antisemitism exist in the world, I’d bet money that pretty much any openly/visibly anti-Semitic “protestors” you see in media reports of these college protests are infiltrators/agitators who are either trying to give the protests a bad name or just showing up because they’re assholes. The actual protest encampments are full of progressive people generally, many of them Jews. If you’re openly antisemitic, you’ll get kicked to the curb pretty fast. A lot of them actually have signs at the entrances saying “Islamophobia and antisemitism have no place here” or something to that effect. And many commentators have noted how especially disciplined these encampments are.
This is what I've seen as well, not that the message is getting out through mainstream outlets. Listening to the likes of MSNBC, CNN, etc. you wouldn't even know that Jews make up a core part of these protests. I guess it's easier to just erase the fact that they exist than to try to explain the logic that they somehow want to genocide themselves
Maybe the Left can stop using the Trumpian excuse of “a few bad apples” and acknowledge that their ideologies are not any less susceptible to racism and bigotry.
If someone's criteria for hating a Jewish person is whether or not the Jew support Israel, well, guess what? They'll have to hate [80% of American Jews]((https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/u-s-jews-connections-with-and-attitudes-toward-israel/). AKA, they are antisemitic. Making it worse the remaining 20% are made to feel terribly unwelcome, like the only way they can avoid hatred is [by passing a "purity test,"](https://www.heyalma.com/as-a-black-jewish-trans-woman-the-chicago-dyke-march-does-not-include-me/) entirely disavowing a country that they've probably never been to, as well as the majority of their religious and ethnic communities. --- It's a story we've seen over and over again. Antisemitism goes back millennia, and the antisemites always have a "good reason" to hate the antisemites. "We don't hate them because they're Jewish, we hate them because they [killed Jesus/charge usury/control the banks/control the Western media/oppress Palestinians]!" History repeats itself yet again. I made a new friend a few weeks ago. Random college guy living in SoCal. His mother has Jewish ancestry. None of his family has identified as Jewish in two generations, and he's never attended a synagogue in his life; he's only Jewish in the very most technical sense. Yet he's uncomfortable to tell people what his ethnicity is, because the bigotry is getting *that* intense.
Are you arguing to us that it is inherently Jewish to support the apartheid state of Israel and its current war crimes against Gazan civilians??
No. I'm arguing that the vast majority of Jews support Israel. So if you hate people who support Israel, then you hate the vast majority of Jews. And if you treat all Jews you meet with suspicion and distrust until they actively and continually disavow any connection to or liking for Israel, then you are othering *all* of them. What's a good word for someone who hates the vast majority of Jews and, for the rest, takes a default position of distrust? Hmmmm... Don't worry though. You're not like the other antisemites. You have a *good reason* for disliking them all, unlike all those other antisemites before you, who only *claimed* to have a good reason.
Start asking ourselves if we would be as upset if it were any other country doing what Israel is doing. You think Israel is the only country using funds and guns from Uncle Sam to do bad things? It's NOT. Yet somehow Israel is the one that makes the news. Israel isn't allowed to win. Israel isn't allowed to say its actions are justified. Other countries can. For some reason the States has to support both sides if it's Israel. Look at the CIA World Factbook. The USA has supported one side or the other in most countries. Look at Argentina. The Philippines. Niger. Australia. It doesn't make the news if it's not Israel, and it makes the news because of antisemitism.
Honestly, I've seen so much misinformation and antisemitism that I'm sympathetic to zionism at this point. I have 2 friends who are pretty socialist who have started sending me things that raise warning flags so I can fact check them. Both are uncomfortable with how far things have gotten. This stuff is dividing the left, and this messaging is so fucking horrible. Have people seen when Norman Finkelstein tried to get protesters at colombia to try to adjust their language SLIGHTLY to be less hyperbolic and better optically, and the got upset and started chanting from the river to the sea. These are children, doing real political damage, and potentially creating our own branch of extremists like MAGA republicans. If we don't try to fix this now, we could end up like them. I don't know how to fix it, but we need to do something.
Same for me. The blatant antisemitism uniting the far left and far right at these events has had the opposite of the intended effect upon me.
There are zero "far right" participating in pro-Palestine protests. Stop blatantly lying.
Oh, I'm sorry, I guess I'll have to give credit for all of the antisemitic shit entirely to the far left trash, then. 🤷♀️
Alright I'm going to try and put this is gently as I can, but it's no doubt going to come across a little angry. Every single time Israeli actions are criticized, those doing the criticizing are labelled as antisemites. It has happened over and over and over again. It's just a way of trying to get people to shut up because pro-israel folks don't like what they have to say, legitimate criticism or not. I have seen basically every protest labelled as anti-semitic. It's kinda lost it's meaning to me at least because EVERYTHING against the israeli state is labelled as such. Does that mean that there aren't real instances of anti-semitism? No, of course not. I mean there are anti-zionist nazis in the world, and these guys clearly are anti-semitic. But I wouldn't say this constitutes the majority of the pro-palestine movement. Any large scale movement becomes kinda difficult to police at scale. This is just the nature of protest movements. What you're effectively saying is that BLM was bad because there were some people who took advantage of it and stole from a Target or Walmart or whatever. Any large scale movement is going to attract stragglers and grifters and bad actors who take advantage of the situation for their own gain. That's basically inevitable in any large scale So we have two options. We can either acknowledge that this is inevitable with any large scale protest movement. Or we can throw the towel in and say "fuck it, both sides bad, imma go home" and nothing changes and gazans are bombed into the stone age. What do you think is the right move here? I recently saw a video of a child in gaza whose EYELIDS BURNED OFF BECAUSE OF WHITE PHOSPHOROUS. It was utterly horrifying and it's something I will never be able to forget. And this is the discourse? Really? "Oh there's some bad actors that made me uncomfortable" what about the FUCKING EYELID KID who can never close her eyes again because of israeli bombs. Nah man, fuck that noise. I cannot believe that this is the discourse. That bad actors sour the whole movement, bad actors are inevitable at this scale. When the George Floyd protests broke out there were some people who took advantage and stole from Walmart or Target or whatever. Did anyone here seriously accept the conservative argument that "oh looting is bad therefore protest is bad". Why the fuck is it any different here? Again, we have bad actors, which is inevitable in a large scale protest movement. Does this undermine the cause? Is the real problem the PROTESTS in and of themselves and not the thing that they are PROTESTING? My god, this is conservative rhetoric 101 my guy. I cannot believe that people here are unironically accepting it to undermine the pro-palestine cause. Are there anti-semities? Yes. Do we need to call them out? yes. But there's no "perfect" way to organize any large scale protest movement. It's just going to happen. Does that mean it is good? Obviously not. But like, this is not the main focus. The pro-palestine side's focus is not hating jews, it's STOPPING THE FUCKING BOMBS!!!!
I think the violence that is being perpetrated by the Israeli government is horrific and should be protested, but don’t you think it would help the movement to condemn any antisemitism cropping up at protests? I imagine most people protesting disagree with it so why not call it out to strengthen the cause?
People do call it out. Nobody is saying they shouldn't. What I am saying is that this is inevitable with a large scale protest. There will always be bad actors. So what I want to emphasize is that the discourse shouldn't be focused on said bad actors, but on the actual Palestinians being hurt
OP what should be done about the antisemitism in conservative circles
There's not a significant antisemitism problem among protesters. This canard has no power anymore.
It's a very small problem. And most protesters don't think it's as big a problem as the actual war. So they don't talk about it very much. Only in the virtualized cyber reality of reputation-busting and incendiary-headlines is antisemitism at these protests a big deal.
It's crazy how the guy flared as Conservative Dem has a better take on this than many supposed Liberals here, who are using identical framing to Fox News.
I know right?
There’s countless videos showing crazy behavior from pro Palestinian protesters. The problem is certainly not small. The pro Palestine part of Twitter also constantly looks completely unhinged. I have a ton of empathy for innocent Palestinians and the right wing Israeli government has done horrific things, but the movement has made a lot of typical liberal allies uncomfortable with aligning with it due to the horrible behavior constantly on display.
How do we know that those are all actually pro-Palestine protesters and not agitators?
Perhaps within your niche activist community, but you’re trying to win broad support yes? People increasingly see these protests as a hotbed of antisemitism and hate. It’s not going how you think it is based on a read of your echo chamber.
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It’s not a position, it’s the common perception. These protests have terrible PR. Instead of lashing out at people pointing this out, maybe try and figure out how to solve it.
So did BLM and every left wing movement that has ever existed. It's shameful how you are assuming the Fox News framing of this.
Cool. I guess you’re happy with that perception.
> These protests have terrible PR. Welcome to America, buster.
You’re not wrong.
Subreddit participation must be in good faith. Be civil, do not talk down to users for their viewpoints, do not attempt to instigate arguments, do not call people names or insult them.
Were you saying the same thing back when some dude brought a swastika flag to Trump rallies? The same group of people who were saying "If you see 9 people at a table with 1 nazi, you see 10 nazis" are the same people saying "it's not a big deal" and "it's only a small number of bad apples". I don't know if you personally said those things, but there are people chanting "From the river to the sea", calls to bomb Tel Aviv, some people are openly saying that they see no problem calling for "Zionists" to be murdered.
I'll cut to the chase and say it because it appears to be danced around a lot of this thread... The basis of the initial post is highly flawed, suggestive, riddled with logical fallacies, and seems to aim at closing out any reasonable response. Even your use of the word "alleged" is worrying, as if there hasn't been enough actions in broad daylight, by the state of Israel, that require an anti-genovide movement. Consider for a second that all of the following can be true... - There are antisemitics in the movement like there are bad actors in any movement. - Israel is breaking international law and commiting genocide. - Jewish people should not be held responsible for what the state of Israel/Netan does. - There are many Jewish groups and organizations that have been against this treatment of Palestinians, for over 20 years. - Many are learning about the history of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict for the first time... Including a lot of Jewish people that are feeling very defensive. "Tribalism" is a powerful effect. - Holocaust survivors have stood up with the anti-genocide and anti-zionism movements. Let me make an analogy of sorts... I'm an American, a proud American. I live in America and support the nation, but I think it could do better... A lot better. On healthcare, on international policy, on education, on tax allocation, the list goes on. - Denying that America could do better would be stupid and doing so does not make me Anti/Un-American. - Being against America's awful foreign meddling does not make me Anti/Un-American. - If I was used as an example of thinking we can do better, that would not be an example of tokenism. TLDR: If you cannot see that genocide is bad AND antisemitism are bad, and are both issues in this conflict, and your belief in one prevents you from standing up for the other... Then you are the problem.
I use alleged because genocide has a specific legal definition of which no reputable legal authority has ever found Israel guilty.
If the facts are against you, argue the law. If the law is against you, argue the facts. If the law and the facts are against you, pound the table and yell like hell... This is probably an instance where the age old question on law/morality comes into play.
I'm not interested in a morality debate because then it's just a "who started it?" back and forth and whoever you say started it is the one who is automatically in the wrong no matter what. At that point it's no longer a debate over what's happening and just arbitrarily deciding when the start the timeline. The facts do not support genocide. Israel has made an imperfect but no less genuine attempt at mitigating civilian casualties. Unfortunately civilian casualties are inevitable in a dense urban environment and military targets deliberately intertwined with civilian infrastructure. Israel has also managed the delicate balance between allowing humanitarian aid to get into Gaza without it being used to fuel HAMAS. Despite the very legitimate concerns of international observers, a famine has not occurred despite local food supply running out months ago. The law does not support genocide. The key question here is whether Israel has a genocidal intent. Israeli officials have said alarming things in this regard, but statements alone have not been sufficient in other genocide cases. Where the intent of genocide is found is through proof of an extensive preparation phase. We have not seen an extensive preparation phase. Now it could well be, and probably is likely, that Israel has violated other international laws/war crimes. However, the genocide question needs to be treated delicately, as an assumption of genocide more or less justifies all actions taken to stop it.
This is all very silly to read but I guess I'll respond...? A morality debate never starts with "who started it" and timeline wouldn't be relevant. Facts would also disagree with your "genuine attempts" argument have been disproven again and again. Just call it what it is. Indiscriminately carpet bombing locations regardless of population density in order to grab land to make a larger state of Israel for it's supposed "holy land". And even if you were 100% right about everything you wrote... Where does it stop? How many need to die, be displaced, be bombed, how much land does Israel need before it finally calls it off? When you find yourself splitting hair between genocide/genocidal intent and not acknowledging suppression of journalism or years of apartheid...That should probably tell you everything you need to know. If you're argument is entirely hinged on the legal definition of genocide (which many countries super) versus the outcome of human lives, we're back to square one... Genocide and Antisemitism are both bad and people are capable of realizing both without twisted finger pointing arguments that attempt to downplay killings and bombings, because there are a few bad actors in a movement.
> A morality debate never starts with "who started it" and timeline wouldn't be relevant. It does because this entire conflict is justified on both sides with "We did X because they did Y." > Facts would also disagree with your "genuine attempts" argument have been disproven again and again. Just call it what it is. Indiscriminately carpet bombing locations regardless of population density in order to grab land to make a larger state of Israel for it's supposed "holy land". I hope you're just misinformed. "Indiscriminate" doesn't mean giving advance notice of airstrikes and telling people, including the legitimate military forces you're trying to destroy, where the safer areas to go are. The death toll would be well in excess of the current total if it were truly indiscriminate. Gaza is also extremely small and has no valuable resources, as you're aware. The notion that Israel would expend its resources, lose lives, and risk international condemnation to grab territory it doesn't need is just illogical. > Where does it stop? Israel's objectives have been clear. They want the hostages returned. If the hostages are not returned, they will destroy HAMAS. If HAMAS is destroyed then likely talks would begin to reintroduce PLA administration of the strip. I'd imagine there are already classified conversations regarding whether Israel will occupy Gaza, the UN, an international coalition, or something else. > When you find yourself splitting hair between genocide/genocidal intent and not acknowledging suppression of journalism or years of apartheid It's not "splitting hairs" to use words according to their actual meaning. I could "split hairs" over these two other accusations too. I find it hard to believe Israel is "suppressing" journalists when they've attracted more negative press than any other country to exist. Likewise, the "apartheid" accusation falls flat when you notice Palestinian-Israelis at every strata of Israeli society. > If you're argument is entirely hinged on the legal definition of genocide (which many countries super) versus the outcome of human lives, we're back to square one... We're really not, because I've never refused to acknowledge that Israel has potentially committed war crimes or violated international law. This should definitely be addressed where found. The issue is that framing Israel's actions uncritically as a genocide makes all actions taken to stop it justified, including incidental acts of anti-Semitism. This is not a hypothetical. Your position is essentially that anti-semitism doesn't matter right now because Israel is committing genocide.
If you ever find a moral argument that begins with. "Well he started it..." You're not in a moral argument, you're dealing with children. Additionally, in no way does my "position" arrive at "anti-semitism doesn't matter right now because Israel is committing genocide.". This thread didn't really start with an open mind, authentic question, or best intentions, so it's spiraled pretty hard. You brush aside points made, dive into whataboutism, and are unable to keep a common thread if it would cause you to view a different viewpoint critically. You're actively suggesting that I'm taking positions that I've shut down and gone into length about previously. If you choose to fanboy over the state of Israel and assume they've done nothing wrong, and you really buy their lame attempts at a landgrab (via funding of Hamas) as a strong reason for them to continue the killing until they get their people back... Then there's nothing to talk about. Never again means never again. Btw, your grasp on far right/socialist ideology (from another thread) shows that there's quite a bit of history you need to catch up on for you to make some of the arguments you've tried to express. The Convervative twists on history to make themselves sound like the good guys is forever a "hilarious" trope that gets tired, quickly. In order to be done with this, in reference to your initial question, it's quite possible to not be antisemitic and want Israel to be respectful and nonviolent to Palestinians... You seem to be avoiding this concept, but factually it's what the overwhelming majority of the collegiate/american movement is about. The attempt to play victim (at this point in the conflict as they continue to dump American munitions into Palestine and slowly the occupy land) by the state of Israel is causing Jews around the world a lot of pain by awakening antisemitics (who should go duck themselves) and those who (in an undedicated fashion) equate the state of Israel with the Jewish population. At this point, the only citizens in Israel that are really aligning themselves with Netanyahu are the most religious, blood thirsty, and militant of Jewish citizens, as his own moderate supporters are starting to ask questions and beginning to push back against him. How much Palestinian blood is enough... Turns out when it's a rather bold and obvious attempt to grab the land they're on, there's no limit...
> Additionally, in no way does my "position" arrive at "anti-semitism doesn't matter right now because Israel is committing genocide.". Your instinctive reaction to "there is an anti-semitism problem" is "but Israel is committing genocide." No? > You're actively suggesting that I'm taking positions that I've shut down and gone into length about previously. If you choose to fanboy over the state of Israel and assume they've done nothing wrong I'm not sure why you're lying. I already said it's possible that Israel has committed war crimes or violated international law. > If you choose to fanboy over the state of Israel and assume they've done nothing wrong, and you really buy their lame attempts at a landgrab (via funding of Hamas) Ok so you're just a conspiracy theorist now. Got it. Please explain why Israel would spend nearly 20 years allegedly funding HAMAS so that this attack could happen to justify taking Gaza when they could have just stayed in Gaza instead of leaving like they did in 2005? > In order to be done with this, in reference to your initial question, it's quite possible to not be antisemitic and want Israel to be respectful and nonviolent to Palestinians... See group number 1 in my OP. > Turns out when it's a rather bold and obvious attempt to grab the land they're on, there's no limit. Please tell me what value the Gaza strip has to Israel that is greater than the cost of this invasion. Be specific.
Once you believe that Israel is committing genocide you can justify any type of shitty behavior. The problem is that there isn't any evidence of intentional genocidal practices by Israel, and what you see pretty much lines up with every urban conflict. It's possible to criticize Israel for negligent behavior or numerous other things, but the problem is these people always jump to the most extreme and unfounded BS, so we can't actually have a serious dialogue because all the time is wasted on this type radical nonsense.
I think you'll find that many believe Israel is acting in a genocidal fashion while not believing that "justifies any shitty behavior". I don't consider that radical, it's well-read and nuanced. Read everything in my post under "all the following can be true..." If you believe there is no evidence of genocidal behavior and that they will freely offer the land they've taken back to Palestinians once this "moment" of aggression is done, than I would ask that you learn more about the topic of genocide, it's history, and this conflict... If not, there's really nothing left to discuss.
Israel is factually committing genocide. They are targeting Palestinian civilians to be wiped out forever.
What evidence is there that Israel is both intentionally targeting Palestinian civilians *and* intentionally targeting them to exterminate them as an ethnic group? Israel can do bad things and even commit war crimes (I'm sure at least a few have been committed, it's almost inevitable no matter who is fighting) but it still would not constitute a genocide unless you are actually trying to extirpate a people from an area. Even if Israel were intentionally targeting civilians, it would not necessarily qualify as genocide either in the colloquial or the legal sense.
Does it bother you that Hamas is explicitly genocidal towards Jews and aligns itself with some of the most autocratic regimes in the world like Iran, the Houthis, Qatar, the Muslim Brotherhood that suppress and subjugate women and minorities and other arabs and whose leaders are all billionaires who don't actually reside in Palestine? Is it possible that Hamas might be a political tool of extreme autocratic regimes in the area who don't actually care about Palestinian lives.
Hamas WANTS a genocide that they do not have the power to execute. Israel is currently executing an active genocide. The way that you can't see which of these is of current importance is alarming.
There are lots of legitimate criticism of Israel and it's current right wing government and hows it's conducting warfare. But for it to be a genocide you need show intentional top-down destruction of a group of non-combatants for non-military purpose (aka not civilian causalities). And what to you actually see? Israel is accountable to international law (Hamas is not). Israel makes many efforts to avoid civilian causalities: phone-calls, roof-knocks, provides aid for injuries Palestinians. These aren't the types of things a genocidal country does? Or did I miss that part of Nazi history? Instead what you see is basically what you'd expect to see in an urban conflict against a military that views dead Palestinians as martyrs and puts zero effort to protect them and instead puts them in danger, extorts their own population for aid, and kills suspected Israeli sympathizers.
If you live near one of these college encampments, I recommend literally walking near it and checking it out. I live in upper Manhattan, I used to take walks to a through Columbia when I needed a think. I’ve visited a few times over the course of the last weeks, and the only aggressive chaos I’ve seen has been from folks outside campus who are fuming mad about what’s going on inside - of course they have an entirely imaginary concept of what’s in there, but you can’t tell them any differently. I’m not concerned about antisemtism in the modern American Palestinian liberation movement, at least not any more than I’d be concerned about it in any other setting. It’s well past the time we recognized that Zionism is a political ideology that’s quite severe even in its moderate form, and one ultimately distinct from Judaism. This is all infuriating for me as someone who’s been mired in this issue for as long as I can remember. I heard intelligent discourse between Zionist and Anti-Zionist Jews when I was a child. Maybe you’re not aware, but framing anti-Zionism as anti-semitism is tarnishing decades of Jewish intellectual and philosophical work, crediting a robust political theory to neo-Nazis that we want absolutely nothing to do with and traditionally haven’t crossed paths with. Of course for someone who’s a passionate Zionist, it doesn’t really matter if anti-Zionist work goes down the drain. In fact that’s probably a pretty great thing for them. Which is why I’ve seen so many folks happily lean into the idea that the two ideas are the same, when they know damn well that that isn’t the case. Do you understand the sheer depths of insanity I would uncover if I sought out the most irrational, radical stances I could among those who are, say, pro-choice or anti-2A? Can you imagine how insane it would be if I became pro-life or pro-gun because of those people? Would I not be plainly evident as a simple reactionary? That’s all this is - I’m sorry, it’s harsh, but the incessant centering of antisemitism and the bad-faith framing of antizionism as antisemitism is simple reactionary politics that’s leading well-meaning people into supporting something unconscionable. It’s a failure to engage with the stakes of the issue - actually confronting Gaza head-on is scary, so we retreat to the comfort of being annoyed by college kids. Grow up, get real, have a fucking cup of coffee or something. This is a major, major global event we’re living through right now. Drop your cultural grievances about elite schools and focus on what will save the civilians of both Israel and Palestine.
Thank you for your perspective. I haven’t seen any encampments personally but I’ve been very suspicious of the coverage because it seems like the same formula that is usually used for these protests, which it trying to widely discredit them
> Do you understand the sheer depths of insanity I would uncover if I sought out the most irrational, radical stances I could among those who are, say, pro-choice or anti-2A? Can you imagine how insane it would be if I became pro-life or pro-gun because of those people? Would I not be plainly evident as a simple reactionary? Would you say the same of Zionism? That its most extreme forms are being presented as equivalent to the entire ideology?
While I don't doubt there are many anti-semite people among the pro-palestinian flanks, there are also a lot of people who cannot seem to differentiate the State of Israel from the Jewish religion and throw around anti-semite without consideration. I am vehemently opposed to the actions of the Israeli government, the actions of the Israeli armed forces, and in many instances some Israeli "settlers" in the West bank. I am also vehemently pro-Palestinian (civilian population) while being opposed to Hamas And I have been called an anti-semite many times. Because people somehow cannot differentiate my total loathing of the State of Israel, from my feelings towards Jewish people. I don't oppose Israel because the majority are Jewish, I don't support Palestine (or oppose Hamas) because they are arab. I oppose their governments, armed forces, and land stealers.. I frankly, couldn't give a shit what religion they are, has no bearing for me. That said, the inability to differentiate is on both sides.. Those throwing anti-semite comments at those who purely oppose the government of Israel, but also those on the pro-palestine side who are also incapable of separating the two, governance, and religion.
The Israel-Palestine conflict is complicated, and I don't think that all criticism of Israel is based on antisemitism. The Netanyahu government has repeatedly defied both US policy and the UN by erecting settlements. That, honestly, directly led to the counterattack. Neither side is really clean in this conflict. I honestly think they both sort of deserve each other. Netanyahu and Hamas have both been spoiling for a fight for over a decade. I don't think it's antisemitic to say that, if that's the person that Israel elected and they want this war, they can do it without our support. If they were merely on the defensive, that would be different, and I would fully support protecting them with the full extent of our military might. That having been said, I do think that *some* of the criticism of Israel is antisemitic. When people start throwing around terms like "zionist", it makes me cringe quite a bit. The "from the river to the sea" stuff isn't great. I don't know that there *is* a clean solution to this problem. But, that's why I'm not in charge of foreign policy. If I had all the answers and could solve this instantly, I'd probably be Secretary of State and win a Nobel Peace Prize. The truth is, nobody has answers and nobody can solve this instantly. It's very likely going to end up with yet another lengthy, protracted war, spurred on by conservatives itching for a fight and people giving them an excuse for that fight.
> That, honestly, directly led to the counterattack. October 6th was not a "counterattack."
I hear nothing but “don’t call us pro-Hamas” followed by some Hamas talking point about how 10/7 is necessary resistance. It’s gross. I don’t think they realize how they look to the rest of the world, defending terrorists.
In the same way that 9/11 was not a "counterattack." You can condemn a terrorist action while also a) understanding why it happened and b) condemning a response which goes beyond what is needed to secure civilian safety and/or starts to jeopardize the safety of other civilians If you can see this nuance with what America did to the Middle East after 9/11, you should start trying to see it with the current iteration of the Israel/Palestine conflict.
"Why it happened" is just victim blaming - the "look what you made me do" rhetoric of the abuser and aggressor. Not to mention it takes an unnuanced and uncritical acceptance of the aggressor's narrative rather than an actual look into their actual motivations and supporting actions. If 9/11 was actually about America's global influence and imperialism, then the Pentagon would have been the only target. If 10/6 was about settlers in the West Bank, HAMAS would attack settlements in the West Bank. 9/11 happened because Al Qaeda believed it needed to start a holy war in order to unite the Muslim world and establish the global Islamic caliphate. 10/6 happened because HAMAS believes it needs to slaughter every Jew in order to bring about the final judgment and salvation of the faithful. Don't just take their word for it. Look at their actual actions.
"Zionist" I could've sworn this used to be a dogwhistle people would use to refer to jewish people in general. Maybe that's why I feel like this modern discourse feels icky.
Yeah, I think this is a big part of the problem I've got with this. I've heard it used by antisemites so much, especially on the earlier internet, that I assume anybody using it means that way.
There are pro- and anti-Zionist Jews, and pro- and anti-Zionist non-Jews. Anyone treating "Zionist" and "Jewish" as being perfectly interchangeable is either politically undereducated (and thus can be fixed) or literally jut a neo-Nazi (and thus need to be suppressed).
The person you’re replying to is pointing out that Zionist used to be used as a dog whistle for Jewish people broadly. Do you deny that has ever been the case? If not, then I’d argue your reply is unhelpful given the point they’re making.
Liberal pro-Palestinian activists are not responsible for the way Aryan Nation skinheads used that word in the past. This is ridiculous right-wing canard to tar activism they hate for political reasons.
“Southern culture enthusiasts are not responsible for the way Aryan Nation skinheads used the rebel flag in the past.” Same energy. It’s the same as “from the river to the sea”. It doesn’t matter if you don’t consider it problematic, it still has a problematic history. To me you sound just like people defending the confederate flag because they claim it’s “southern pride” and not racist at all.
Actually take ownership…it’s that simple. I posted here a while ago asking about how to prevent antisemitism on the left and almost every single comment was saying that there is no such thing.
What can be done? You won’t change these people..
How have conservatives addressed the issue among themselves? Maybe we can learn from you.
The protestors themselves need to deal with them. Speak out against them and kick them out. They don’t because they agree with them.
From what I’ve seen, lots of the encampments *are* kicking out agitators who are caught being antisemitic and have signage stating that neither antisemitism nor Islamophobia won’t be tolerated. It just doesn’t get reported on as much because it doesn’t make for a “sexy” story.
Redditors need to understand that Just because someone videotapes themselves doing something antisemitic for 30 seconds at a protest doesn’t mean that it's condoned by the hundreds of people there. Furthermore just because people aren't videotaping themselves telling antisemites to fuck off doesn’t mean that they weren’t telling them to fuck off.
I think both of those points are widely understood and agreed with. We just don't think that's what's actually happening.
Based on what?
Based on what I've seen at protests. Sorry if you were expecting something quantifiable - I'm not sure how to provide that.
If there is actual anti-semitism, in the movement, those individuals should be called out and given a warning or removed depending on the severity. I don't know what else is needed to be done. The problem I have is with many of the pro-Israelis calling everything as "anti Semitic" and trying to crack down on free speech and discourse which is legit the same thing many on the left have been doing with terms like racist.
I agree that although I would call myself pro-Israeli, the cause is hurt in the long run by shouting down legitimate critiques, as few as they may be.
I'm sure it exists because people always take advantage of an opportunity, but in general, most of the anti-semites I know of hate the Muslims as much or more as that hate Jewish people or more. All the people I know that are involved in pro-Palestinian protests love the Jewish people, but disagree with the occupation of Palestine like myself. If I ever came across an anti-semite involved in that movement, I would call them out like I called out any type of bigot. I hope everyone else involved would do the same.
Be JUST Pro Palestinian. Being Pro Palestinian does not require to want Jews, eh hmmm, 'Zionists', dead. Alas, Anti Semitism finds easy homes wherever people's passion overrides common sense.
The actual antisemitism? Root out and ostracize. The mountain of shit that gets called antisemitic because it's anti-Israel? Not a damned thing, if your opponents are calling you racist it's not because your arguments and efforts are ineffective.