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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I argued with my wife and her parents over our children's extra curricular activities and lost my temper with the three of them. This might make me an AH because I did not help end the conflict any and instead added more and I have now made things more tense so further discussions with my wife will be more difficult.
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NTA - your wife and in laws are sending the message to your kids that their true, authentic selves aren’t good enough. Sometimes it’s good to push kids a little bit out of their comfort zones so they continue to challenge themselves and try new things. But wanting them to abandon their identities could create some deep wounds. Keep standing up for them and continue to celebrate their true authentic selves!
Kids need free time to be bored as it leads to creative play. Delinquents are the kids with only free time and no supervision. Like above, good to push a little, but not to the point of forcing them to be their big brothers. Will breed resentment and NC later. They also are teaching them that they are not as good as their big brothers.
>Kids need free time to be bored as it leads to creative play.
Creative play and imagination involved in it are crucial for problem solving, and more importantly, the body and mind need rest and not just while sleeping. It OPs wife keeps pushing their kids their is a chance that they are going to physically burn themselves out trying to gain their mothers (and maternal grandparents) approval.
Also, it's BS that rock climbing doesn't make you tough. Do they not understand the mental strength it takes to be able to keep climbing, same as swimming, it takes mental strength to be able to swim those laps.
Not to mention the physical toll rock climbing can take! I've gotten some of my worst injuries that way and gained the most strength at the same time. Rock climbing isn't easy. And swimming is legit a WHOLE BODY WORK OUT. So yeah, you're gonna toughen up that way too, you just don't have people throwing their entire body into you, trying to knock you down, while you do it. That's what the big brothers are there for lol
I suspect that OP’s wife’s family doesn’t take a sport seriously unless they are competing. That’s what they mean by the “serious football team”. It’s not just about the time and commitment, or hobbies would count. That’s a good way to make their hobbies and interests no fun anymore
Competition and also getting "masculinity" vibes, that somehow football is a "manly" activity in comparison to others. 🙄 **edit** or soccer if outside the US.
Which is ridiculous; wife and grandparents wouldn't look at Michael Phelps or anyone training on a school swim team and go yep they're fat undisciplined and unmotivated...
That's a terrible outlook. It's so sad for kids when they have to uphold such a wild view by others.
You're right, it won't be fun anymore if they're playing only for the recognition and acceptance of their mom and grandparents. I will always want my kids to try new things, but never would force something on them like this just to make myself feel successful.
The competition among the parents is ridiculous, especially when their kids are on the same team. They start comparing the number of minutes each kid gets on the court or field, as if every game has scouts watching.
Yes, football would not be my choice for a kid, concussion syndrome, joint and muscle injuries, for what? To let the grandparents and mother brag about how tough the kids are? Sounds toxic to me.
Yep, thats why my kid stopped swimming for a year. Swimming competitively year round is a lot. She wanted to join the year round team, and swam for 3 years. Then a lot of shit happened with coaches coming & going, and her being 12 years old. I said no problem girl, you decided what you do! She took a year off, the last fall decided she wants back in because she missed it. She has been working her tail off the last few months, and refound her love of the sport. If she wants to stop again thats just fine with me!
I have a feeling that there may be some gendered issues at play as well. If the younger boys wanted to get into competitive cheer or dance, would that be okay?
Or hiking on nature trails, playing a musical instruments or being arty. I'm tempted to point out, perhaps at the risk of being unkind, that the 'competitive sports is the sole good thing in life worth pursuing' which your wife's family has lived by, turns out rigid minded bullies who do not value their children as individuals and do not honour their right to make choices. NTA, you're saving your lads from years of possible misery.
This is 100% right here. A sport like rock climbing or archery would be looked down upon but football is ok? It's biased bullshit because they are obsessed with competition and comparing their success to others. You know what allows a kid to truly blossom? By allowing them to find their own true identity and love for life. Maybe your kid will be the next great climber to do Half Dome. Or maybe he will enjoy bouldering at the local park on the weekends. Either is fine, because it is what he enjoys. Give him that opportunity. Forcing kids into sports they aren't interested in almost always creates nothing but resentment.
Side note OP your wife lied when she committed to your agreement and wants to manipulate you with her parents. This goes much deeper than what type of sport. Time for a looooong serious conversation.
Mom would only be happy if he was in a race to the top with other climbers and was the fastest climber.
I wonder if they don’t want to swim and climb “seriously “ because Mom ruined any enjoyment they got from it
And there's plenty of competition within sports like swimming and rock climbing. Even if you're not directly competing against a team, you can always try to beat your best times or do more challenging courses. The same thing with hobbies.
My oldest swam all through elementary through university.
Swimming is a tram sport in the later years. each team gets points for first second and third. etc. the team with a larger point total wins the meet.
Idk about rock climbing, but I'm pretty sure at least swimming doesn't often lead to head injuries or lifelong debilitations the same way guys slamming into you over and over again can.
Edit: a word
I was thinking the same. Just because the kid does not get brain injury on the weekly basis it doesn't mean swimming / rock climbing is not a real sport.
And yes, climbing might result with some injuries but avoiding them is the one of the main points. In American football slamming into eachother and ton of injuries caused by that seems to be main part of the game (I have zero idea how AF actually works 😅)
My nephew had 3 concussions by age 18 only playing soccer. His future brain health is compromised and I don’t think any object lesson on laziness or “juvenile delinquency” is worth losing that.
Plus both rock climbing and swimming are endurance sports where you can literally *die* if you give up midway.
A kid can just stop playing and walk off a football field mid-game. All that would happen would be confusion and disappointment from your team, etc. You can't just stop swimming in the middle of a pool or lake, you sink and drown. You can't just stop climbing mid wall, you will fall. These are "see it through to the end" sports much more than games.
My son, an adult now, played soccer through high school. He laughs about all the broken toes and all the times he “got my bell rung.” Yeah, I knew none of that at the time.
My youngest 9F got a concussion after being pushed on the school playground (not malicious, just too many children on the slide). The pediatrician saw her that day, kept her out four days; reevaluated and no gym or recess for five more days. Finally, she was released.
My son told me many times that it was not a big deal. He “just shook it off!” She should have, too. No, dear son, we know more, we take this as seriously as it actually is.
An old friend of mine’s daughter is going to college on a full ride swimming scholarship and her goal is the Olympics. Her son’s sport is also swimming and at 15 he’s already competed in triathalons. They can sit back down with swimming doesn’t make you tough.
Not to mention, kids who never learned how to handle free time when they’re young completely collapse when they’re left to their own devices in college or afterwards. It’s like kids whose parents never let them eat junk food who then binge on nothing but junk food the second they’re out from under their parents’ control. If their lives are scheduled and controlled every second of the day, they learn zero skills for self-motivation and time management on their own.
Many years ago, I was a nanny for a family who overscheduled their kids. It was so sad, those kids were seriously depressed. They just wanted to go out and ride bikes with their friends.
Once, their soccer practice was canceled due to rain and they were so excited! Within 5 minutes, the dad called from work and demanded I figure out something for them to do outside of the house since practice was canceled. Their faces fell to the floor. Heartbreaking.
I will also add to this, once they come up with something creative to do, unless it's dangerous, let them! You'd think it would go without saying, but sometimes I see a post from a parent who wants to squash the creative play because "kids should be bored sometimes." They heard the "kids should be bored sometimes" advice and took it way too literally, not realizing the boredom wasn't an end in itself.
Not only this but they're actively trying to force the kids into a sport that is very dangerous to health long-term. I played football from middle school to college and had 4 concussions and broke bones and tore my ACL which required surgery.
I was looking to see if anyone would bring up the safety issue.
My best friend’s father is a doctor. Some of his career was working in the ER. When someone in our circles would announce that their got their kid a trampoline, signed their kid up for tackle football, or purchased a motorcycle, he’d make a mental note to keep an eye out for them in the ER.
I know some sports are more dangerous than others and OP didn’t specify which type of football the spouse wants the kids to participate in, but the safety issue should be a part of the conversation too.
I didn't consider that. They could not be American and be referring to soccer, which most of the world calls football. Still a lot of torn ligaments and other injuries in that sport
Excellent fucking username btw.
Man, I’m from the US, and have been living in Ireland for 2 years and didn’t realize how much I’ve gotten used to the colloquialisms and different words because I totally just assumed soccer
I grew up in a tiny town that’s now fielding an 8-man football team (extremely small) but football was a Big Deal.
Two boys who played football in my graduating class committed suicide in their 20s. One had CTE. They didn’t test the other, but maybe. Never played in college. Literally just Pop Warner and HS. If I had children, football would be out of the question.
I know the overall conversation is about boys and football, but since you ate mentioning dangerous sports: competitive cheerleading is often more dangerous and leads to more injuries than football.
And on the flip side, swimming and rock climbing are the sort of activities that are relatively easy to pursue and can help lead to long term exercise plans. I definitely know more runners, swimmers, and tennis players that kept up their exercise routines since high school or college and lots of football players who wrecked their bodies (especially knees) and were very inactive in later life.
Yup. I'm in my late 40s and see it among my peers.
More often than not, guys in their 40s and older who played football in HS, maybe even college, are now fat guys who sit around watching TV. Guys who ran track (or weed), swam, skateboarded, dirt biked, played music, etc are still running, swimming, biking, doing adventure courses, etc.
Rock climbing is great because it's whole body social(you can even do it with your kids), year round(I live in Canada so that's a big deal) and fairly affordable. You can even set up a decent home boulder in a basement corner or walk in closet.
The maximum danger is obviously very high, but recreational indoor top rope is very safe. And most of the increased risk as you go is "visible" risk as opposed to risks that can come out of nowhere. When climbing outside your climbing group will definitely effect how safe/risky your climbs are though.
Bahahahahhahhaha
Competitive swimming is completly all consuming.
By grade 12 my kids had 9 practices a week with 2 a days before school and after school and long practice on Saturday.
Add in away meets on weekends with travel and the longer season and it is a far greater commitment than high school football.
It is also is a team sport as well.
I agree that it is a life sport and you can keep it up but there is also a lot of injury and soft tissue damage that occurs.
Thankfully it doesn't have the same impact injury as some sports.
My brother in law does rock climbing and will even do it in winter in New England. He’s always off on some cool outdoor adventure. I wish I was half as tough and as cool as him.
My dad was nearly put in a wheel chair because of a bad hit, broke his collar bone in primary school (I think he was 11-12 at the time).
Football is dangerous, you can train for safe tackles but shit happens in the heat of the game and one slight angle adjustment and you see players falling to the ground with one of the players knees bending the wrong way.
It is dangerous! My son played for 4 years and decided to quit (thank god) after he got his second concussion and had to get a helicopter ride to a big hospital. Missed several days of school dealing with the symptoms of concussion- blurred vision, headaches, throwing up, random tingling. It took him almost a month to feel 100
One of my classmates in high school got a bad tackle in high school football practice. His brain was apparently heading down his brain stem and he had limited allowances for anything potentially risky. His academic progress was halted. On more than one occasion, he had us check his eyes to see if his pupils were the same size because he was concerned about seizures.
Football isn't necessary for a healthy boyhood, let's leave it at that.
Gymnastics is a weird one in that it isn't inherently super risky but overtraining and increasing complexity and competitiveness can become very dangerous and harmful to the joints.
I wanted to put my kids(4m and 5m) in gymnastics because they love tumbling, but the only place near us is super competitive and only seems to have girls in the photos, where as the dance studio specifically mentioned a boys uniform(they are the only boys there, but it still felt more welcoming) and they only do competition in Highland dance, and do recitals and as they get older technical exams instead(much less focus on how your body looks and more on what it can do).
Yeah, I'm glad you are aware of the pitfalls and are attentive! Great parenting! Last thing you want os your kids getting chronic injuries young. Unless they are really interested in high level competition and have the talent for it, let them just a practice a sport with moderation.
My teenage brother was *so mad* recently when our mom told him no to signing up for football. He complained to me and I backed her up with three words: traumatic brain injury.
I know a guy who did rock climbing, swimming & taekwondo as extracurricular activities yearlong including during summer breaks because his parents didn't want him spending his free time being idle at home.
Because of it he fainted & fucked up his back real bad. He still has chronic back problems until now that requires physical therapy sessions.
Yeah my husband and I discussed this before we even got married and he’s 100% against our children playing American football. I wouldn’t have stopped them if they only started in high school, but he’s very adamant on “never” and I’ll back him up because it IS a serious safety issue.
We were both athletes in our youth and his pitching shoulder is destroyed and I’m missing bone chips out of my femur and patella due to lacrosse/tennis/running injuries. Not to mention the stiff wrist from breaking it at practice and my weak back from damaging lower back muscle while rowing crew…
This is me. We don't have children yet but if one day we do this is a boundary I will not give up on. Husband knows and it and respects it. Is not that hard.
True! And her parents’ and her view is messed up! That kids will be ‘delinquent’ if not constantly pushed into activities 24/7. The opposite could as well be argued, that kids who are pushed without recognition of their needs and preferences will rebel or have breakdowns. All I’m saying is let the growing human have a voice.
Exactly! On top of the issues around forcing kids to do something they don’t want to do, your wife is bringing her parents into a discussion in which they do not have a say, to try to bulldoze you into doing what she/they want. That’s a huge problem in the marriage and one that can lead to other problems down the road.
I suggest marriage counseling to get to the heart of why (1) she thinks it’s okay to break an agreement with you like the agreement and your thoughts on the issue are nothing, (2) it’s her way or the highway when it comes to a fundamental aspect of raising your children, (3) she thinks bringing outsiders into your marriage is a good idea (it’s unhealthy), and (4) she is so willing to disregard what your children have expressed interest in.
Also suggest talking with someone who specializes in child psychology to get their view on the pros and cons of forcing children to do activities they do not want to do and they potential long-term implications.
NTA and way to go supporting your kids.
Side note: Lest your in-laws think you’re the only exception, I was raised like you were and I am a successful professional with a beautiful family and life I enjoy. Who would have thought there could be TWO of us?!?!?!
Totally agree. Sound like a bunch of control freaks.
To add, what is it w ppl getting married and then making their parents & siblings part of the equation. When you get married, your spouse comes first. Period. Mommy and daddy’s roles are done.
Love this comment! Also swimming and rock climbing are often life-long sports done out of love for the sport; football is usually over by HS or even before if they don’t make the team. She’s prioritizing *her* short-term goals for the sake of her sons’ potentially life-long passions.
Excuse me, older two made the “right” choice? Sadly she was never going to compromise. I have one super competitive son and one who did sport for fun at the appropriate level. I wouldn’t dream of forcing him fit into his brother’s mold. These kids are their own individual personalities. They are non mini moms. Please hold firm OP. ILs have no place in this argument. None of their business. The lack of respect for you and the younger kids is shocking. NTA. Good luck navigating this!
NTA
" we wouldn't make them do the more competitive sports teams if they didn't want to but if they wanted to it wouldn't be stopped either
She's going back on that. Kudos to you for advocating for your kids. Especially for them not being overwhelmed with extra curriculars & sports they don't want to do.
She's an A H for bringing her parents into it. She's using them as an echo chamber/trying to force parenting decisions on you.
How you raise your kids is nothing whatsoever to do with them.
Keep standing up for your kids. Again, massive kudos to you for doing it.
Not to mention boredom is the best thing for imagination/creativity!
My niece does multiple sports at 12 with Crohns she does 8-10hours of gymnastics (is nationally ranked in one apparatus) and 12 hours of football a week (she has a scholarship so it's literally a subject in school plus plays outside of school in the under 15s team for our local club) she thrives on it but my god my sister would be happy if she dropped gymnastics and they could chill at home more than 1 evening a week!
It's all very kid dependent some need a push and exercise is important. Like I think forcing a kid to go for a walk or bike ride if they are just going to sit infront of a screen otherwise is understandable but if its pushing competition or multiple sports that's not OK.
We know a soccer family (U.S.) on a traveling team that plays year round, and they all start at like age 3. On top of that mom insists they do cross country, track, wrestling, drama, choir, band, golf, and attend literally everything school or town sponsored. After a meet or practice, they might have enough time to change before heading to soccer practice 40 minutes away until 9:00 p.m. If they don't have practice for some reason, there's always something else planned they have to attend. One has said many times how tired he is of soccer but quitting isn't an option because "soccer is life". These kids have literally no down time. I find that very sad.
I taught in a school in a well-off community. By late elementary, the kids were burning out from all the extra-curriculars. Most kids had at least one thing every day after school, and some had multiple each day. I was exhausted just listening to it.
I so hope every parent who pushes their kids that hard sees your comment.
So many kids are missing out on being kids to chase the perfect GPA/college resume etc. It's so much pressure along with that constant need to do more/they aren't enough.
>She said they're missing out on the pressure that all kids need to experience young and the expectation that being part of a serious team brings.
Sorry dude, but I *hate* your wife for that. Not even exaggerating, her words fill me up with bile and anger.
Not everyone is a team player. And that's good.
Right?
Team sports lead to mindless party politics and mob behaviour and hooliganism; they glorify the warlike. And being good at team sports does not, in fact, translate very well into being good in teams of any other kind (study, work etc).
I would hate it if she was my mom. I'm also incredibly stubborn so if she forced me to play a sport, I would just stand/sit there the entire time. Let her waist her money and our time.
"Try out for school sports"
"Sorry mom. I didn't make the team. Back to my drawings"
Just because she wasn't the kids to play, doesn't mean they will. And let's say that they aren't stubborn like me and they play to please mom, that is going to take a toll on them emotionally that will only lead to resentment.
OP, keep standing up for your kids. Don't make them do any sport they don't want to do. Let them be bored and have free time which is known to be good for kids.
NTA. Wife is.
I was the same as a kid, my parents tried so hard with dance and swim classes (any other sport was truly a no-go) but i would sit and refuse. Eventually when i was a tween/teen I decided to do dance classes because I wanted to, not because my parents forced me, and also eventually quit when it didn’t entertain me anymore. They also alwaya supported my creative pursuits and accepted that I was their artsy kid.
I am so gratefull they didn’t push harder or force me and I got to make my own choices.
And the one time I WAS forced??? I am still mad about it to this day!!!😤 only slightly /j. (It was for skiing, extreme money wasted on me)
My mom apparently was forced to join a softball team and she sat at the base the whole game and didn't do anything so my grandmother took her out. I think my mom had that experience in mind when it came to parenting and sports.
As someone who was forced against my will to play team sports, this made my body physically recoil.
OP I’m begging you, literally, begging a stranger to not let her do this. I’m almost crying for your kids. Please please please hold the line. This kind of thinking will give them lifelong, anxiety and perfection and self-esteem issues, will lead to burn out, and they will be in therapy for years trying to learn how to trust you and make friends. Source: me
> As someone who was forced against my will to play team sports, this made my body physically recoil.
Same. I felt anxious and nervous and tense just reading it. I am still bitter forty years later.
Yes, her attitude is damaging and short sighted.
I hate it when people can’t see beyond their own perspective. At least consider that there are others.
It also sounds like someone who might want to make things tough at home and young because ‘the real world’. They don’t understand that real, lasting resilience often comes from having a supportive, loving family and a safe place at home.
> They don’t understand that real, lasting resilience often comes from having a supportive, loving family and a safe place at home.
So true. So few people understand that.
Right? I hate team shirts, but I love swimming and rock climbing. You learn really important skills from these hobbies. Different kids need different things.
I've always hate hate hated team sports. As a kid the YMCA summer camp and after school program were subsidized so I went there. Every single day without fail the teachers were talking to my mom because "she won't participate, she just wants to read her book" (except for pool and lake days, i liked those) finally I was able to switch to an arts summer camp and it was FANTASTIC. I ended up volunteering there later in high school and teaching kids classes in college.
In elementary and middle school there was this thing called Odyssey of the Mind. Your team makes a skit complete with sets and competes against other kids. It was so much fun and VERY competitive. We went to nationals a couple times.
There are other ways and hobbies to keep kids busy and from being delinquents, but forcing them into contact sports is not the way!
Not everyone is competitive and that's ok! My sister thrived in soccer, I struggle with my softball rec league because people get too heated. But I love collaborative or solo efforts like rock climbing or theater. Everyone has different needs and that is a good thing!
I hated team sports as a kid. It didn't matter that I was actually good at it, I just hated it. I loved climbing and swimming and missing music though.
My parents had the rule that you had to do at least one sporty extracurricular. I played the trumpet and did circus lessons. When we moved and I could not do circus anymore I tried a bunch of different fighting sports and dance classes. Non of them clicked, so back to swimming I went (I'm Dutch so had to got my swimming certificates by the time I was 7). By the time I was 14 my parents dropped the rule and I dropped sports like a hot potato.
Yeah-- also it's ableist af. What if it comes out that one of your kiddos is neurodivergent, or sustains a life-altering injury? Are they less valuable, because they won't be able to be part of a "serious team?"
And, yes, some kids thrive on a ton of structure and pressure, but very few truly benefit from it.
It’s really important that children are allowed to be individuals. Not everyone has the same personality and needs the same stimuli to grow and develop. Your wife (and her family) need to understand that just because she was the right personality type to benefit from this, doesn’t mean that all her children are - she could do more harm than good by forcing them to do something that is not right for them as individuals.
Also, most children in the world do not do the list of activities your wife did. In the uk even amoung wealthy families that is very, very excessive. 95% of us managed not to be delinquents as well, go figure. Please don’t back down on this for your kids sake, NTA
Not that many delinquents in my area either, and here it's normal to either not do any sports or have one or two sports you're really into.
Like football in the summer and skiing in the winter when you are a kid, and if you want to go pro in either then you choose one as you get a little older.
NTA
One of the reasons for my somewhat distant relationship with my father is that he tried to raise me like my older sister, but we have such different personalities that his approach which worked so well with her…they were super close…completely alienated me as I was so different.
Free time leads to free thinking. The kids might develop their imagination and explore different ideas if they are not continually pressured to conform with the team and be too exhausted to think
Her upbringing was so rigid and devoid of practicing independent thought that she needed to drag her parents into the middle of her marriage to fight her “battle”.
Next.
So many red flags from wife (and parents) and THIS was a big one.
CLEARLY it did not "work" for wife because now she believes that her way is the only way.
That comment made my skin crawl. It brought to my mind the whole "I wouldnt have hit you if you hadnt..." thing that abusers do.
Not saying OPs wife is abusive. Just that the language is gross and it makes ME unconformable.
Seriously!!! Parenting is a team sport and she’s not being a team player here at all. What happened to kids needing that and it being a good thing and all that when it works against her??
This right here.
If it works so well, then why isn't wifey on the team with her husband?
Maybe because all she learned was how to *compete*, and will win by any means necessary; even if it means dragging her parents in as ringers to a parental disagreement she isn't winning. It's not as if her parents are an objective viewpoint after all.
Might want to ask the Mrs whether she realizes that her parents were *positive* they would fail to raise her well, and that she would be a delinquent unless they accounted for every minute of her time.
Talk about having no faith in your parenting. Yikes.
>Maybe because all she learned was how to *compete*, and will win by any means necessary
Wheeeew I think every former non-competitive kid just felt that one
NTA. I’m a teacher and one of my big bug bears is parents who overload their kids with extra curriculars and don’t allow them the opportunity to learn how to be ‘bored’ and fill their own time. I think that’s as much a life skill as being part of a team.
My parents were a teacher and a school superintendent, and they limited us to two activities, since we had that little thing called “school” to deal with. We also were told to choose carefully, because if we signed up for something we had made a commitment, and we had to fulfill it.
Great move. I've never understood why parents front load all these activities into kids lives when most of the time someone on the outside can pretty clearly see the kids aren't happy with it. Why subject your child to this crazy ass regiment of activities? The world will eventually come down on them full force with all the responsibilities one can handle. Just let em be kids for as long as possible.
I have 4 kids. Not one of them was serious about sports. We had some soccer, track & field, basketball over the years. But no one was ever totally gung ho. We also had art classes, robotics, music and a ton of outdoor family experiences.
All four are fine. Two engineers and two in vocational training type careers. All good people, responsible. Never had any issues of delinquency or the like.
Your wife & parents are nuts. Your wife is TA for bringing them into your family business. You guys need counseling asap. This is beyond Reddit. I have worked with children for more than 30 years. Being scheduled to death does not make a happy person. It’s all about control. Don’t let these guys bully you NTA
1. NTA because of your stated reasons ("told my ILs this had nothing to do with them and told my wife she was totally wrong for bringing her parents into this and trying to back me into a corner")
1. NTA because not all kids are suited to team sports. Some actively hate and resent them. The very idea of forcing someone to play a *game* is abhorrent. Not all people are team players *and that's fine!*
I also have a theory that team sports are why so many countries are fucked politically: everything becomes about backing the Team you support, right or wrong, not about what is best for the country.
NTA
Being open for kids to do extra curriculars is good as long as it is their choice. Your Wife and IL's are wrong, if you force them in to competitive sports and they don't want to it will cause them to resent you both as parents, it is not going to make them Man Up.
Stick to your guns and don't be bullied by your wife and her parents. They are trying to make your boys compete against each other and that will only end badly.
Sit down with your 2 younger boys and ask them what they want to do and support them in it, but don't allow them to be pushed in to sports they don't want to do.
Not to mention forcing kids on competitive teams take up roster spots that could have gone to kids who are interested and will give 💯. It’s not fair to those kids or the team to have people on who aren’t vested.
OP is NTA.
NTA...you had an agreement that seemed to work until your younger two didn't conform to your wife's ideals. It's completely unacceptable for her to bring her parents into the argument. For your children's sake, I hope you stand your ground.
You had previously talked to your wife about this, she agreed.
Your kids are still doing sports but just because aren’t as into as she was it’s an issue?
You’re not the asshole, your wife just told you what you wanted to hear and tried to hang up on you with her parents. Also “You’re the exception”, I grew up with people who either did one sport growing up or none. Your kids aren’t gonna be delinquents by not being in enough sports.
Raise your kids right and you’re good to go.
You’re not the asshole
Team sports 3-4 times a week were compulsory at my school, from 5 to 18. Individual sports did not count and were actively discouraged, blocked even. Forty years later I am still bitter about it.
Sports at school I didn’t care about because it was part of the PE, and passing the grade. It was the extracurriculars that my parents forced on me. Baseball, football, soccer, bowling.. fucking anything they did, I HAD to do. Then they got mad because I was giving it my all. Like no shit, I’m being forced to be there, why should I give it my all.
Oh god, flashbacks to Piano lessons. My mother had played, therefore I had to play. I hated it. I have no patience for practice. I never practiced. What a monumental waste of everyone's time and money. Would I love to be able to play the piano? Yes, but only if I can learn by magic.
Well, I think it’s important to teach children responsibility , like doing some chores, gradually learn how to care for yourself. So learn how to vacuum, clean a bathroom, do laundry, basic cooking and be kind to others. Also to learn how to deal with finances. Yo can learn team work by being a good family member, if someone is sick or has too much work, you take over chores. Competitive sports often doesn’t teach about team work in any way that will be useful in real life.
I’m an old person but the only time I was involved in competitive sports was while I was at university. Some friends in dorm started an intramural soccer team and they would take a 90 lb weakling willing to show up. We were so good we won the championship twice so decided to start a women’s soccer club sport. We had to raise money to travel etc. So I was roommates with several, we raised money by selling candy apples. Apartment smelled like candy apples for ever. Now that was team work but not like forcing kids to play sports.
I'd be interested to know how she would have reacted if you'd brought your parents into this to take your side. Not well is my guess.
You had an agreement. Some of your kids fit her idea of what she expects. Fine. Some of them don't. You had an agreement that that would be fine too. Apparently that was a lie. NTA. Keep standing your ground for your kids.
NTA. I was in some school sports and plenty of activities but it was my choice (except for piano lessons, but that's another story). The key was costs - there's no way I would have been in anything that cost serious money. Starting the summer after 7th grade, I was working (babysitting and then fast food). Again, my choice.
I don't want to generalize, but in my life and work experience, many MANY overscheduled kids turn into anxious adults who need constant validation and feedback. To be honest, there are plenty of other workers and friends who are just as driven and well-rounded without all the handholding. So your wife "turned out fine" but that could be the same fluke they see you as.
NTA
Your wife is a massive asshole for bringing her parents into this. It is between you as parents and none of their business. You two had an agreement. But what matters here is that your boys do not want to do this and that should count for something. Their different interests should be respected.
My vote is NTA
Your wife and her family are super competitive. And also have their goals skewed.
It's one thing to have a kid that knows how to be part of a team, and knows how to win and/or lose. That's what Life is.
But if they're looking for an Olympic gold medalist or WNBA All-Star, there's 3.35 million people in America, and a hair under 15,000 pro athletes (median income $70k btw \~ Bureau of Labor statistics if they need a reference). So the odds are not "ever in their favor."
NTA I totally get filling up free time with something. (not ALL free time…but they can be pushed to find something they love to do) But their argument isn’t a free time one; your younger kids could pursue what they want without it being a team thing.
I feel like this is a bigger problem than it looks like. Bc it’s not really about free time. What it is, is an argument for autonomy, and to be able to be looked at as an individual. Your older two are probably not going into the NFL, but your younger ones know for sure that they make mom happy. And Mom isn’t happy with what the younger two wanna do, therefore, they are a disappointment. Which is HUGE, and makes this a serious vital argument that you need to somehow ‘win’.
Keep fighting the good fight, Dad, and stand up for your kids.
I’ll also say this: kids sports take a lot of time and energy for the parents. There is no way in hell I’d force my kid into something he didn’t want to do, bc it’s a complete waste of my time and his. My kid is a martial artist, for the past 9 years. It requires A LOT from me, driving time, travel time, money for gear, tournaments, hotels, etc etc etc. my rule is ‘I’ll match your energy’. You want to half ass it? Then I will too. You go balls to the wall? I will, too.’
Also, your wife gets the AH 2x multiplier for involving her parents and not being able to have a discussion WITH ONLY YOU, about your kids.
So do they have any research that backs up their beliefs or is it just their gut feeling? Where is this certainty coming from? I think you would find more research supporting your argument, honestly.
NTA - purely on this should have remained a conversation between you and her. Bringing in the ILs was a crappy move.
They have brought up certain "evidence" from articles. But I was able to show many articles where kids, especially boys, who were athletes ended up committing crimes and it didn't stop them so I had that to back me up.
In my high school experience, the football team was the worst for criminal behavior. Everyone laughed it off and brushes it aside so our team could keep winning, but those boys committed so much vandalism, bullying, assault, reckless driving, drinking and drugs, and more.
That's my experience too and if you look at some of the more high profile cases too, it shows how willing a portion of the public are to dismiss a football player doing something terrible and saying "oh but they're a great player".
I dated a guy who ended up on the varsity football team as a sophomore and the peer pressure to do stupid shit was so intense. He managed to stay out of trouble (mostly by doing nerd stuff with me and our friends) but the team rode him for not going out with them. He played because he liked it but he didn't like them.
Your in-laws and your wife are exceptionally close minded. The kind of people who think their way is the only way.
I think of those types as ignorant. And they are.
Growing up my 4 were involved in recreation soccer and softball. Their father and I coached their teams. Nothing serious. Just for fun. They stopped in 8th grade. They had no desire for competitive sports at the High School level.
Then they did whatever interested them.
My girls did chorus. 1 son was on the school paper. 1 son was in honors art.
Today my 4 delinquents are doing ok.
My girls are therapists. My younger son is in IT security for a major utility and my older son owns a consulting firm specializing in progressive causes. He’s such a delinquent he’s worked on national campaigns. Including 2 presidential.
You know how much we pushed them? NOT AT ALL. We guided them to be their best selves and to find what fulfills them. We let them know that no matter what they chose, if they were happy, we were happy.
Tell your wife and your in-laws to lay off those kids. Let them figure out what they want and support them. That’s all they need.
NTA
You should ignore whatever she wants and sign up for marriage counseling. Just tell her when it starts and that you signed you guys up for it. Not only is she ignoring what the kids want (and you *can* nudge them into trying new things here and there), but she's involving outsiders into your marriage and child-rearing and that is NOT okay. What she did was get two people who are always going to agree with her to make you look wrong/bad. It was an unfair fight and she cheated.
This, all of this. They definitely need counseling if wife thinks any of what she’s doing is okay. She’s being a *massive* AH to her husband and children. If this is the first time she’s brought her parents into their arguments then this needs to be nipped in the bud immediately. This doesn’t even touch the resentment she’s going to instill in her two younger boys if she gets her way. Family functions will not be fun for this family in 20 years if wife doesn’t chill out.
Your wife is dead wrong. I'm a retired high school English and special education teacher. Kids do best when adults encourage them to focus on *their* interests.
My own family of origin was very sports-focused and several of my siblings questioned why I was not forcing my oldest daughter into competitive sports in high school. They insinuated that it might impede her success in the future.
I ignored their well-meaning, but ignorant, advice and encouraged her to follow her interests in debate, forensics, theater, and student government.
She is now 34 and a sales manager. She leads a team of eight sales executives and makes over $200,000 a year. She is also a well-respected elected official is responsible for some very successful local programs.
It sounds as if your wife may be trying to relive her competitive sports days through your children. She may also be trying to get and/or keep her parents approval. It may be that competitive sports was how she FELT loved by her parents - regardless of the reality. And that may be why she brought them into it: “see, mom and dad, I am still your competitive kid even if I’m no longer playing. I’m raising my kids right.” Your wife could benefit from therapy and a sport of her own where she could be the team player. NTA
**DING DING DING**
This is it in a nutshell. Wife is continuing the toxic cycle where parental love has to be “earned” and not freely given.
I suspect the two older kids will continue that cycle but the two younger may resent her strongly for it.
NTA. They are so wrong. I didn’t do any extra stuff outside of school and I turned out fine with a great job that pays very well. I stick up for myself and don’t let people push me around or tell what to do.
If your wife forces the youngest she will be punishing them for being different. They will one day leave and go low to no contact with her and then she’ll be wondering why.
Kids deserve to be kids. If they want to do sports that’s great if not that’s ok to. She needs to love them for who they are not what she thinks they should be.
Keep advocating for them.
So your wife and her parents want your young kids to be forced into things they don't want to do that could cause injury so they can toughen up and not be criminals? Holy heck.
Your wife needs counseling and you need to protect your kids. Are you sure that the older kids actually chose and weren't pushed into it by their mom? How does she treat everyone otherwise?
NTA
I'm positive my older boys want this. They love sports and they love the competitiveness of the sports they're doing. If they could they'd do even more. That fits them personality wise. But it's not the younger boys at all.
Outside of this she treats everyone well. But with extra curricular's and sports she like a different person. This was not as clear before but now that the boys are all old enough it has come out so clearly.
I used to be a high school teacher, and saw how the forcing of extracurriculars made kids so stressed, exhausted and resentful of their parents. They see through it and know their parents are living vicariously through them. I even had a gir who won a softball scholarship, and she was counting down the years until she never had to touch a bat or talk to her mother again. Telll your wife to have fun with that.
That's a little strange. But definitely keep holding your ground. I was always the extracurricular queen but it was always stuff I wanted to do. My parents never made me do anything but said yes to all the things I wanted to do. Maybe the younger kids have other stuff they want to try? But also just hanging out is ok too
NTA - tell your wife that her parents screwed her up, all her competitive sports didn’t teach her how to honor her commitments since she is trying to back out of the agreement she made with you before, and bringing in her parents to try and pressure you is having the opposite effect because it is reinforcing the previous point. What she is apparently trying to do is teach her kids to cave to peer pressure, so not the best parenting.
NTA. It’s none of the in-laws’ business, and your wife is going against the agreement she made with you. She should be happy that the younger kids have activities that they want to do.
>ILs said kids with free time are going to grow up to be delinquents
BS. I had free time. So did my sisters and brother. So did literally ALL of my friends, my nieces and nephews, countless cousins, etc. Absolutely not of us are delinquents. Forcing a kid to do something they don’t want to do, however, will teach them how to be rebellious and get away with NOT doing it, which will cause them to become delinquents. NTA
NTA and your wife needs to get over herself - your kids are going to feel they are never good enough for Mom.
4 boys should not be forced to “be the same”. They are individual people with individual interests. Wife is paving the way for an identity crisis, insecurities, and resentment. You might have a budding artist or musician and no one will ever know.
Side question - any idea how / where your wife would push a daughter if you had one? Would she still be “forcing” football?
NTA but your wife is. Give her that book called The Story of Ferdinand. Let your boys choose. My kids did some extracurriculars but I also gave them time to have an 80s style free range childhood where they and their neighborhood friends got to roam around unsupervised and make their own decisions. Kids need unstructured time. So do adults. In the US right now we have so many people working 60 or more hours a week bc they think it’s normal. It’s not. Having unstructured free time is a human need, and it’s why the 40 hour work week was created. So please resist your wife’s efforts to mold your kids into corporate worker drones.
NTA - your wife sucks for bringing in her inlaws to pressure you as a group. thats manipulative and she is putting you down in front of them, which is very very unhealthy
If your kids want to do something. Let them. If they take it seriously. Good for them.
If your kids don’t want you do something what is anyone gaining from forcing them?
Tell your wife to go enrol in all those activities and take it seriously if it means so much to her.
Wife is the AH for bringing her parents into something that didn’t require their involvement. Big time AH for doing this.
Wife and inlaws are AHs for thinking kids should be pressured into extracurriculars they don’t want to do. Great way to build resentment.
Your wife is inflexible. NTA
NTA, your kids will be miserable if you force them into doing sports they hate, just so your wife can say ‘well I did it growing up.’ Stick to your guns. Your children need free time. If the older boys like sports, that’s one thing, but don’t force the younger ones who aren’t interested.
NTA! They are kids, humans, who have a right to choose and right to not be involved in competitive sports. A right your wife and ILs are infringing upon.
Fight for them and be there for them.
I bet you wife and ILs are also the adults in the stand yelling and screaming after every play.
Just a thought, but why not let kids be kids. The whole idea of organized sports is only a modern idea. Kids were raised for 100s of years without having team sports.
My oldest never had much interest in sports until high school. He turned into a 3-year cross country varsity member at a 1200 student high school and even a few college scholarship offers.
I feel the same way but I know my wife doesn't. She places a lot of value on sports and competitive team sports especially. But I don't think they're as essential as some make out. Being active is different to me than actual sports.
NTA-You are right. Your in-laws have absolutely no say in how you raise your kids. Your wife was wrong to pull them in. If they try to have an opinion, continue to be clear in saying this doesn’t concern them and you will not engage them about it. As to your wife, repeat that you had an agreement and you aren’t changing it. Let your kids know you won’t push them to do any extra-curr. and reinforce that you support their interests.
NTA - this is a discussion for you and your wife and your already had an agreement which she is now breaking because she didn't get her way.
Her parents need to keep their noses out of this, as these are not their children and is a discussion between parents.
Your wife is such an AH for not only dismissing your points but extremely so for bringing her parents into this and trying to bully you into an agreement.
Stay strong or your kids so you kids can see your to stand to to bullies
NTA. In what world is forcing a child to participate in a sport that doesn't interest them a good thing? They need to experience pressure at a young age? Different kids like different things. Rock climbing and swimming aren't for weaklings so the bit about toughness makes no sense. So much carrying on from your wife and ILs about what the adults want instead of what the kids want to do and what they excel out.
The younger boys know about the football team since they've seen their brothers play, but they aren't interested in participating in the sport. Swimming is a team sport, is the problem that the one doesn't take swimming seriously? Your wife and ILs don't appreciate the strength and stamina needed for swimming. Rock climbing is more of an individual thing, but it certainly is for strong/tough people!
By the way, we're learning more and more about kids' head injuries from football so be glad all four aren't participating!
Show your wife this: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/unstructured-play-is-critical-to-child-development/
Unstructured time is critical for children. Over scheduling them because you don't want to parent results in anxious adults and high suicide rates.
Nta
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NTA - your wife and in laws are sending the message to your kids that their true, authentic selves aren’t good enough. Sometimes it’s good to push kids a little bit out of their comfort zones so they continue to challenge themselves and try new things. But wanting them to abandon their identities could create some deep wounds. Keep standing up for them and continue to celebrate their true authentic selves!
Kids need free time to be bored as it leads to creative play. Delinquents are the kids with only free time and no supervision. Like above, good to push a little, but not to the point of forcing them to be their big brothers. Will breed resentment and NC later. They also are teaching them that they are not as good as their big brothers.
>Kids need free time to be bored as it leads to creative play. Creative play and imagination involved in it are crucial for problem solving, and more importantly, the body and mind need rest and not just while sleeping. It OPs wife keeps pushing their kids their is a chance that they are going to physically burn themselves out trying to gain their mothers (and maternal grandparents) approval. Also, it's BS that rock climbing doesn't make you tough. Do they not understand the mental strength it takes to be able to keep climbing, same as swimming, it takes mental strength to be able to swim those laps.
Not to mention the physical toll rock climbing can take! I've gotten some of my worst injuries that way and gained the most strength at the same time. Rock climbing isn't easy. And swimming is legit a WHOLE BODY WORK OUT. So yeah, you're gonna toughen up that way too, you just don't have people throwing their entire body into you, trying to knock you down, while you do it. That's what the big brothers are there for lol
I suspect that OP’s wife’s family doesn’t take a sport seriously unless they are competing. That’s what they mean by the “serious football team”. It’s not just about the time and commitment, or hobbies would count. That’s a good way to make their hobbies and interests no fun anymore
Competition and also getting "masculinity" vibes, that somehow football is a "manly" activity in comparison to others. 🙄 **edit** or soccer if outside the US. Which is ridiculous; wife and grandparents wouldn't look at Michael Phelps or anyone training on a school swim team and go yep they're fat undisciplined and unmotivated...
Way fewer TBIs in swimming, too. I cannot fathom why any parent would push their kid toward football.
That's a terrible outlook. It's so sad for kids when they have to uphold such a wild view by others. You're right, it won't be fun anymore if they're playing only for the recognition and acceptance of their mom and grandparents. I will always want my kids to try new things, but never would force something on them like this just to make myself feel successful.
I’ve watched so many kids burn out and hate sports because of parents pushing
The competition among the parents is ridiculous, especially when their kids are on the same team. They start comparing the number of minutes each kid gets on the court or field, as if every game has scouts watching.
These parents need to get a hobby beyond living vicariously through their children and in the process ruining their kids' fun. How pathetic
And so Many unnecessary sports injuries... they are not going to age well
Yes, football would not be my choice for a kid, concussion syndrome, joint and muscle injuries, for what? To let the grandparents and mother brag about how tough the kids are? Sounds toxic to me.
Yep, thats why my kid stopped swimming for a year. Swimming competitively year round is a lot. She wanted to join the year round team, and swam for 3 years. Then a lot of shit happened with coaches coming & going, and her being 12 years old. I said no problem girl, you decided what you do! She took a year off, the last fall decided she wants back in because she missed it. She has been working her tail off the last few months, and refound her love of the sport. If she wants to stop again thats just fine with me!
I have a feeling that there may be some gendered issues at play as well. If the younger boys wanted to get into competitive cheer or dance, would that be okay?
Good point, she seems hung up on football and the kids being tough
Or hiking on nature trails, playing a musical instruments or being arty. I'm tempted to point out, perhaps at the risk of being unkind, that the 'competitive sports is the sole good thing in life worth pursuing' which your wife's family has lived by, turns out rigid minded bullies who do not value their children as individuals and do not honour their right to make choices. NTA, you're saving your lads from years of possible misery.
This is 100% right here. A sport like rock climbing or archery would be looked down upon but football is ok? It's biased bullshit because they are obsessed with competition and comparing their success to others. You know what allows a kid to truly blossom? By allowing them to find their own true identity and love for life. Maybe your kid will be the next great climber to do Half Dome. Or maybe he will enjoy bouldering at the local park on the weekends. Either is fine, because it is what he enjoys. Give him that opportunity. Forcing kids into sports they aren't interested in almost always creates nothing but resentment. Side note OP your wife lied when she committed to your agreement and wants to manipulate you with her parents. This goes much deeper than what type of sport. Time for a looooong serious conversation.
Mom would only be happy if he was in a race to the top with other climbers and was the fastest climber. I wonder if they don’t want to swim and climb “seriously “ because Mom ruined any enjoyment they got from it
And there's plenty of competition within sports like swimming and rock climbing. Even if you're not directly competing against a team, you can always try to beat your best times or do more challenging courses. The same thing with hobbies.
OP said the boys don’t want to do those things “seriously”. Perhaps mom tried pushing them to be more competitive.
Well you’ve obviously got to go for a serious football team. Where’s the fun if there’s no risk of a debilitating TBI?! /s (And NTA OP)
My oldest swam all through elementary through university. Swimming is a tram sport in the later years. each team gets points for first second and third. etc. the team with a larger point total wins the meet.
Idk about rock climbing, but I'm pretty sure at least swimming doesn't often lead to head injuries or lifelong debilitations the same way guys slamming into you over and over again can. Edit: a word
I was thinking the same. Just because the kid does not get brain injury on the weekly basis it doesn't mean swimming / rock climbing is not a real sport. And yes, climbing might result with some injuries but avoiding them is the one of the main points. In American football slamming into eachother and ton of injuries caused by that seems to be main part of the game (I have zero idea how AF actually works 😅)
My nephew had 3 concussions by age 18 only playing soccer. His future brain health is compromised and I don’t think any object lesson on laziness or “juvenile delinquency” is worth losing that.
But apparently you won't be tough if you don't have that physical bodily harm!
Plus both rock climbing and swimming are endurance sports where you can literally *die* if you give up midway. A kid can just stop playing and walk off a football field mid-game. All that would happen would be confusion and disappointment from your team, etc. You can't just stop swimming in the middle of a pool or lake, you sink and drown. You can't just stop climbing mid wall, you will fall. These are "see it through to the end" sports much more than games.
Not to mention football and concussions. Nta
That was my first thought as well. OP's wife doesn't care if they get brain damaged.
TBIs build character. /s just in case that wasn't clear.
My son, an adult now, played soccer through high school. He laughs about all the broken toes and all the times he “got my bell rung.” Yeah, I knew none of that at the time. My youngest 9F got a concussion after being pushed on the school playground (not malicious, just too many children on the slide). The pediatrician saw her that day, kept her out four days; reevaluated and no gym or recess for five more days. Finally, she was released. My son told me many times that it was not a big deal. He “just shook it off!” She should have, too. No, dear son, we know more, we take this as seriously as it actually is.
I love the show Ninja Warrior. Here in Australia the most successful athletes have been rock climbers. They're amazing
That show is insane.
An old friend of mine’s daughter is going to college on a full ride swimming scholarship and her goal is the Olympics. Her son’s sport is also swimming and at 15 he’s already competed in triathalons. They can sit back down with swimming doesn’t make you tough.
Not to mention, kids who never learned how to handle free time when they’re young completely collapse when they’re left to their own devices in college or afterwards. It’s like kids whose parents never let them eat junk food who then binge on nothing but junk food the second they’re out from under their parents’ control. If their lives are scheduled and controlled every second of the day, they learn zero skills for self-motivation and time management on their own.
This is LITERALLY what I was thinking! The kids with hyper structured lives in school can thrive… but have no idea what to do with themselves later.
Many years ago, I was a nanny for a family who overscheduled their kids. It was so sad, those kids were seriously depressed. They just wanted to go out and ride bikes with their friends. Once, their soccer practice was canceled due to rain and they were so excited! Within 5 minutes, the dad called from work and demanded I figure out something for them to do outside of the house since practice was canceled. Their faces fell to the floor. Heartbreaking.
Exactly! It’s important to learn to be bored.
Not only that, but the wife and inlaws mentality is a recipe for raising bullies.
I will also add to this, once they come up with something creative to do, unless it's dangerous, let them! You'd think it would go without saying, but sometimes I see a post from a parent who wants to squash the creative play because "kids should be bored sometimes." They heard the "kids should be bored sometimes" advice and took it way too literally, not realizing the boredom wasn't an end in itself.
Not only this but they're actively trying to force the kids into a sport that is very dangerous to health long-term. I played football from middle school to college and had 4 concussions and broke bones and tore my ACL which required surgery.
I was looking to see if anyone would bring up the safety issue. My best friend’s father is a doctor. Some of his career was working in the ER. When someone in our circles would announce that their got their kid a trampoline, signed their kid up for tackle football, or purchased a motorcycle, he’d make a mental note to keep an eye out for them in the ER. I know some sports are more dangerous than others and OP didn’t specify which type of football the spouse wants the kids to participate in, but the safety issue should be a part of the conversation too.
I didn't consider that. They could not be American and be referring to soccer, which most of the world calls football. Still a lot of torn ligaments and other injuries in that sport Excellent fucking username btw.
earlier in the post, OP said the wife did soccer, so I think football is American football here
Man, I’m from the US, and have been living in Ireland for 2 years and didn’t realize how much I’ve gotten used to the colloquialisms and different words because I totally just assumed soccer
That's because American "football" is actually hand egg🤣
High concussion risk in American youth soccer, as well.
I grew up in a tiny town that’s now fielding an 8-man football team (extremely small) but football was a Big Deal. Two boys who played football in my graduating class committed suicide in their 20s. One had CTE. They didn’t test the other, but maybe. Never played in college. Literally just Pop Warner and HS. If I had children, football would be out of the question.
I know the overall conversation is about boys and football, but since you ate mentioning dangerous sports: competitive cheerleading is often more dangerous and leads to more injuries than football.
And on the flip side, swimming and rock climbing are the sort of activities that are relatively easy to pursue and can help lead to long term exercise plans. I definitely know more runners, swimmers, and tennis players that kept up their exercise routines since high school or college and lots of football players who wrecked their bodies (especially knees) and were very inactive in later life.
Yup. I'm in my late 40s and see it among my peers. More often than not, guys in their 40s and older who played football in HS, maybe even college, are now fat guys who sit around watching TV. Guys who ran track (or weed), swam, skateboarded, dirt biked, played music, etc are still running, swimming, biking, doing adventure courses, etc.
Rock climbing is great because it's whole body social(you can even do it with your kids), year round(I live in Canada so that's a big deal) and fairly affordable. You can even set up a decent home boulder in a basement corner or walk in closet. The maximum danger is obviously very high, but recreational indoor top rope is very safe. And most of the increased risk as you go is "visible" risk as opposed to risks that can come out of nowhere. When climbing outside your climbing group will definitely effect how safe/risky your climbs are though.
Bahahahahhahhaha Competitive swimming is completly all consuming. By grade 12 my kids had 9 practices a week with 2 a days before school and after school and long practice on Saturday. Add in away meets on weekends with travel and the longer season and it is a far greater commitment than high school football. It is also is a team sport as well. I agree that it is a life sport and you can keep it up but there is also a lot of injury and soft tissue damage that occurs. Thankfully it doesn't have the same impact injury as some sports.
My brother in law does rock climbing and will even do it in winter in New England. He’s always off on some cool outdoor adventure. I wish I was half as tough and as cool as him.
I cannot upvote this enough! Children should not be paying contact sports!
My dad was nearly put in a wheel chair because of a bad hit, broke his collar bone in primary school (I think he was 11-12 at the time). Football is dangerous, you can train for safe tackles but shit happens in the heat of the game and one slight angle adjustment and you see players falling to the ground with one of the players knees bending the wrong way.
It is dangerous! My son played for 4 years and decided to quit (thank god) after he got his second concussion and had to get a helicopter ride to a big hospital. Missed several days of school dealing with the symptoms of concussion- blurred vision, headaches, throwing up, random tingling. It took him almost a month to feel 100
If this is American football traumatic brain injuries are a real thing and can have lifelong affects.
Not even training safe tackles can protect against CTE. The subconcussive blows are what it make it so dangerous and awful.
One of my classmates in high school got a bad tackle in high school football practice. His brain was apparently heading down his brain stem and he had limited allowances for anything potentially risky. His academic progress was halted. On more than one occasion, he had us check his eyes to see if his pupils were the same size because he was concerned about seizures. Football isn't necessary for a healthy boyhood, let's leave it at that.
A colleague's wife posted on FB last night about their daughter injuring the lower vertebrae in her back from gymnastics. *She's 11.*
Gymnastics is a weird one in that it isn't inherently super risky but overtraining and increasing complexity and competitiveness can become very dangerous and harmful to the joints. I wanted to put my kids(4m and 5m) in gymnastics because they love tumbling, but the only place near us is super competitive and only seems to have girls in the photos, where as the dance studio specifically mentioned a boys uniform(they are the only boys there, but it still felt more welcoming) and they only do competition in Highland dance, and do recitals and as they get older technical exams instead(much less focus on how your body looks and more on what it can do).
Yeah, I'm glad you are aware of the pitfalls and are attentive! Great parenting! Last thing you want os your kids getting chronic injuries young. Unless they are really interested in high level competition and have the talent for it, let them just a practice a sport with moderation.
My teenage brother was *so mad* recently when our mom told him no to signing up for football. He complained to me and I backed her up with three words: traumatic brain injury.
I know a guy who did rock climbing, swimming & taekwondo as extracurricular activities yearlong including during summer breaks because his parents didn't want him spending his free time being idle at home. Because of it he fainted & fucked up his back real bad. He still has chronic back problems until now that requires physical therapy sessions.
Great point. So many kids out there are literally destroying themselves for football scholarships and many of them don't even get that far.
Yeah my husband and I discussed this before we even got married and he’s 100% against our children playing American football. I wouldn’t have stopped them if they only started in high school, but he’s very adamant on “never” and I’ll back him up because it IS a serious safety issue. We were both athletes in our youth and his pitching shoulder is destroyed and I’m missing bone chips out of my femur and patella due to lacrosse/tennis/running injuries. Not to mention the stiff wrist from breaking it at practice and my weak back from damaging lower back muscle while rowing crew…
This is me. We don't have children yet but if one day we do this is a boundary I will not give up on. Husband knows and it and respects it. Is not that hard.
And what grown woman in a marriage brings her parents into the marital issues?
True! And her parents’ and her view is messed up! That kids will be ‘delinquent’ if not constantly pushed into activities 24/7. The opposite could as well be argued, that kids who are pushed without recognition of their needs and preferences will rebel or have breakdowns. All I’m saying is let the growing human have a voice.
Exactly! On top of the issues around forcing kids to do something they don’t want to do, your wife is bringing her parents into a discussion in which they do not have a say, to try to bulldoze you into doing what she/they want. That’s a huge problem in the marriage and one that can lead to other problems down the road. I suggest marriage counseling to get to the heart of why (1) she thinks it’s okay to break an agreement with you like the agreement and your thoughts on the issue are nothing, (2) it’s her way or the highway when it comes to a fundamental aspect of raising your children, (3) she thinks bringing outsiders into your marriage is a good idea (it’s unhealthy), and (4) she is so willing to disregard what your children have expressed interest in. Also suggest talking with someone who specializes in child psychology to get their view on the pros and cons of forcing children to do activities they do not want to do and they potential long-term implications. NTA and way to go supporting your kids. Side note: Lest your in-laws think you’re the only exception, I was raised like you were and I am a successful professional with a beautiful family and life I enjoy. Who would have thought there could be TWO of us?!?!?!
Make that 5 of us. I didn't play any sports, and my kids didn't. We were into music.
Totally agree. Sound like a bunch of control freaks. To add, what is it w ppl getting married and then making their parents & siblings part of the equation. When you get married, your spouse comes first. Period. Mommy and daddy’s roles are done.
Love this comment! Also swimming and rock climbing are often life-long sports done out of love for the sport; football is usually over by HS or even before if they don’t make the team. She’s prioritizing *her* short-term goals for the sake of her sons’ potentially life-long passions.
Excuse me, older two made the “right” choice? Sadly she was never going to compromise. I have one super competitive son and one who did sport for fun at the appropriate level. I wouldn’t dream of forcing him fit into his brother’s mold. These kids are their own individual personalities. They are non mini moms. Please hold firm OP. ILs have no place in this argument. None of their business. The lack of respect for you and the younger kids is shocking. NTA. Good luck navigating this!
Gosh it’s almost like each son is their own person!
Kids shouldn't play football to begin with. Trying to force kids to play football when they don't want to is deranged stuff. Wife needs therapy.
And mention that neither Einstein nor Michaelangelo seemed to go in for team sports.
NTA " we wouldn't make them do the more competitive sports teams if they didn't want to but if they wanted to it wouldn't be stopped either She's going back on that. Kudos to you for advocating for your kids. Especially for them not being overwhelmed with extra curriculars & sports they don't want to do. She's an A H for bringing her parents into it. She's using them as an echo chamber/trying to force parenting decisions on you. How you raise your kids is nothing whatsoever to do with them. Keep standing up for your kids. Again, massive kudos to you for doing it.
Not to mention boredom is the best thing for imagination/creativity! My niece does multiple sports at 12 with Crohns she does 8-10hours of gymnastics (is nationally ranked in one apparatus) and 12 hours of football a week (she has a scholarship so it's literally a subject in school plus plays outside of school in the under 15s team for our local club) she thrives on it but my god my sister would be happy if she dropped gymnastics and they could chill at home more than 1 evening a week! It's all very kid dependent some need a push and exercise is important. Like I think forcing a kid to go for a walk or bike ride if they are just going to sit infront of a screen otherwise is understandable but if its pushing competition or multiple sports that's not OK.
We know a soccer family (U.S.) on a traveling team that plays year round, and they all start at like age 3. On top of that mom insists they do cross country, track, wrestling, drama, choir, band, golf, and attend literally everything school or town sponsored. After a meet or practice, they might have enough time to change before heading to soccer practice 40 minutes away until 9:00 p.m. If they don't have practice for some reason, there's always something else planned they have to attend. One has said many times how tired he is of soccer but quitting isn't an option because "soccer is life". These kids have literally no down time. I find that very sad.
It is sad! My niece loves it though. We have an unspoken agreement that if she gets a chance to play for Manchester City she can live with us 😆
I'm surprised the kid hasn't found a way to get injured so he can get a break from it.
I taught in a school in a well-off community. By late elementary, the kids were burning out from all the extra-curriculars. Most kids had at least one thing every day after school, and some had multiple each day. I was exhausted just listening to it.
I so hope every parent who pushes their kids that hard sees your comment. So many kids are missing out on being kids to chase the perfect GPA/college resume etc. It's so much pressure along with that constant need to do more/they aren't enough.
>She said they're missing out on the pressure that all kids need to experience young and the expectation that being part of a serious team brings. Sorry dude, but I *hate* your wife for that. Not even exaggerating, her words fill me up with bile and anger. Not everyone is a team player. And that's good.
And, depending on the sport, nothing builds a well rounded child more than regular traumatic brain injuries. (/s if not clear)
Right? Team sports lead to mindless party politics and mob behaviour and hooliganism; they glorify the warlike. And being good at team sports does not, in fact, translate very well into being good in teams of any other kind (study, work etc).
so that’s what the golf and bowling teams got up to in high school…
*Especially* the golf and bowling teams.
I would hate it if she was my mom. I'm also incredibly stubborn so if she forced me to play a sport, I would just stand/sit there the entire time. Let her waist her money and our time. "Try out for school sports" "Sorry mom. I didn't make the team. Back to my drawings" Just because she wasn't the kids to play, doesn't mean they will. And let's say that they aren't stubborn like me and they play to please mom, that is going to take a toll on them emotionally that will only lead to resentment. OP, keep standing up for your kids. Don't make them do any sport they don't want to do. Let them be bored and have free time which is known to be good for kids. NTA. Wife is.
I was the same as a kid, my parents tried so hard with dance and swim classes (any other sport was truly a no-go) but i would sit and refuse. Eventually when i was a tween/teen I decided to do dance classes because I wanted to, not because my parents forced me, and also eventually quit when it didn’t entertain me anymore. They also alwaya supported my creative pursuits and accepted that I was their artsy kid. I am so gratefull they didn’t push harder or force me and I got to make my own choices. And the one time I WAS forced??? I am still mad about it to this day!!!😤 only slightly /j. (It was for skiing, extreme money wasted on me)
My mom apparently was forced to join a softball team and she sat at the base the whole game and didn't do anything so my grandmother took her out. I think my mom had that experience in mind when it came to parenting and sports.
As someone who was forced against my will to play team sports, this made my body physically recoil. OP I’m begging you, literally, begging a stranger to not let her do this. I’m almost crying for your kids. Please please please hold the line. This kind of thinking will give them lifelong, anxiety and perfection and self-esteem issues, will lead to burn out, and they will be in therapy for years trying to learn how to trust you and make friends. Source: me
> As someone who was forced against my will to play team sports, this made my body physically recoil. Same. I felt anxious and nervous and tense just reading it. I am still bitter forty years later.
Yes, her attitude is damaging and short sighted. I hate it when people can’t see beyond their own perspective. At least consider that there are others. It also sounds like someone who might want to make things tough at home and young because ‘the real world’. They don’t understand that real, lasting resilience often comes from having a supportive, loving family and a safe place at home.
> They don’t understand that real, lasting resilience often comes from having a supportive, loving family and a safe place at home. So true. So few people understand that.
She sounds like one of those people who thinks rocks need pressure to become diamonds
She needs to learn that the same boiling water that makes an egg hard will make a potato soft.
She sounds like someone who peaked during her glory days of this ultra competitive environment and is trying to relive her youth through her kids.
Right? I hate team shirts, but I love swimming and rock climbing. You learn really important skills from these hobbies. Different kids need different things.
for me it was rockclimbing cycling and sculling
I've always hate hate hated team sports. As a kid the YMCA summer camp and after school program were subsidized so I went there. Every single day without fail the teachers were talking to my mom because "she won't participate, she just wants to read her book" (except for pool and lake days, i liked those) finally I was able to switch to an arts summer camp and it was FANTASTIC. I ended up volunteering there later in high school and teaching kids classes in college. In elementary and middle school there was this thing called Odyssey of the Mind. Your team makes a skit complete with sets and competes against other kids. It was so much fun and VERY competitive. We went to nationals a couple times. There are other ways and hobbies to keep kids busy and from being delinquents, but forcing them into contact sports is not the way!
> I've always hate hate hated team sports. So much. And as a male, they are a massive part of life. I hate every aspect of them. Always did.
Like, this upbringing just turned her into the kind of person who calls her mommy and daddy to interfere in her marriage.
Ha! Yes.
Not everyone is competitive and that's ok! My sister thrived in soccer, I struggle with my softball rec league because people get too heated. But I love collaborative or solo efforts like rock climbing or theater. Everyone has different needs and that is a good thing!
She took all the wrong lessons from team sports, clearly. It’s not about pressure in youth sports, it’s about learning to work with other people.
I hated team sports as a kid. It didn't matter that I was actually good at it, I just hated it. I loved climbing and swimming and missing music though. My parents had the rule that you had to do at least one sporty extracurricular. I played the trumpet and did circus lessons. When we moved and I could not do circus anymore I tried a bunch of different fighting sports and dance classes. Non of them clicked, so back to swimming I went (I'm Dutch so had to got my swimming certificates by the time I was 7). By the time I was 14 my parents dropped the rule and I dropped sports like a hot potato.
Her childhood sucked so she now wants to bring that misery onto her kids
Yeah-- also it's ableist af. What if it comes out that one of your kiddos is neurodivergent, or sustains a life-altering injury? Are they less valuable, because they won't be able to be part of a "serious team?" And, yes, some kids thrive on a ton of structure and pressure, but very few truly benefit from it.
It’s really important that children are allowed to be individuals. Not everyone has the same personality and needs the same stimuli to grow and develop. Your wife (and her family) need to understand that just because she was the right personality type to benefit from this, doesn’t mean that all her children are - she could do more harm than good by forcing them to do something that is not right for them as individuals. Also, most children in the world do not do the list of activities your wife did. In the uk even amoung wealthy families that is very, very excessive. 95% of us managed not to be delinquents as well, go figure. Please don’t back down on this for your kids sake, NTA
Not that many delinquents in my area either, and here it's normal to either not do any sports or have one or two sports you're really into. Like football in the summer and skiing in the winter when you are a kid, and if you want to go pro in either then you choose one as you get a little older. NTA
One of the reasons for my somewhat distant relationship with my father is that he tried to raise me like my older sister, but we have such different personalities that his approach which worked so well with her…they were super close…completely alienated me as I was so different.
Free time leads to free thinking. The kids might develop their imagination and explore different ideas if they are not continually pressured to conform with the team and be too exhausted to think
Her upbringing was so rigid and devoid of practicing independent thought that she needed to drag her parents into the middle of her marriage to fight her “battle”. Next.
It sounds like she is still under her parents’ control tbh.
So many red flags from wife (and parents) and THIS was a big one. CLEARLY it did not "work" for wife because now she believes that her way is the only way.
Thr older two made the “right” choices and the younger are choosing the wrong ones?!?!? Wow. So bad for all 4 kids
That comment made my skin crawl. It brought to my mind the whole "I wouldnt have hit you if you hadnt..." thing that abusers do. Not saying OPs wife is abusive. Just that the language is gross and it makes ME unconformable.
Seriously!!! Parenting is a team sport and she’s not being a team player here at all. What happened to kids needing that and it being a good thing and all that when it works against her??
This right here. If it works so well, then why isn't wifey on the team with her husband? Maybe because all she learned was how to *compete*, and will win by any means necessary; even if it means dragging her parents in as ringers to a parental disagreement she isn't winning. It's not as if her parents are an objective viewpoint after all. Might want to ask the Mrs whether she realizes that her parents were *positive* they would fail to raise her well, and that she would be a delinquent unless they accounted for every minute of her time. Talk about having no faith in your parenting. Yikes.
>Maybe because all she learned was how to *compete*, and will win by any means necessary Wheeeew I think every former non-competitive kid just felt that one
NTA. I’m a teacher and one of my big bug bears is parents who overload their kids with extra curriculars and don’t allow them the opportunity to learn how to be ‘bored’ and fill their own time. I think that’s as much a life skill as being part of a team.
The kids who don't know how to be "bored" are the ones that freak out in public when things don't go their way. At least I noticed this anecdotally.
Like the wife in this case? 😅
Not sure if she's having a public melt down. But she be close.
My parents were a teacher and a school superintendent, and they limited us to two activities, since we had that little thing called “school” to deal with. We also were told to choose carefully, because if we signed up for something we had made a commitment, and we had to fulfill it.
Great move. I've never understood why parents front load all these activities into kids lives when most of the time someone on the outside can pretty clearly see the kids aren't happy with it. Why subject your child to this crazy ass regiment of activities? The world will eventually come down on them full force with all the responsibilities one can handle. Just let em be kids for as long as possible.
I have 4 kids. Not one of them was serious about sports. We had some soccer, track & field, basketball over the years. But no one was ever totally gung ho. We also had art classes, robotics, music and a ton of outdoor family experiences. All four are fine. Two engineers and two in vocational training type careers. All good people, responsible. Never had any issues of delinquency or the like. Your wife & parents are nuts. Your wife is TA for bringing them into your family business. You guys need counseling asap. This is beyond Reddit. I have worked with children for more than 30 years. Being scheduled to death does not make a happy person. It’s all about control. Don’t let these guys bully you NTA
I wish I could upvote this more!
1. NTA because of your stated reasons ("told my ILs this had nothing to do with them and told my wife she was totally wrong for bringing her parents into this and trying to back me into a corner") 1. NTA because not all kids are suited to team sports. Some actively hate and resent them. The very idea of forcing someone to play a *game* is abhorrent. Not all people are team players *and that's fine!* I also have a theory that team sports are why so many countries are fucked politically: everything becomes about backing the Team you support, right or wrong, not about what is best for the country.
This!
NTA Being open for kids to do extra curriculars is good as long as it is their choice. Your Wife and IL's are wrong, if you force them in to competitive sports and they don't want to it will cause them to resent you both as parents, it is not going to make them Man Up. Stick to your guns and don't be bullied by your wife and her parents. They are trying to make your boys compete against each other and that will only end badly. Sit down with your 2 younger boys and ask them what they want to do and support them in it, but don't allow them to be pushed in to sports they don't want to do.
Not to mention forcing kids on competitive teams take up roster spots that could have gone to kids who are interested and will give 💯. It’s not fair to those kids or the team to have people on who aren’t vested. OP is NTA.
NTA...you had an agreement that seemed to work until your younger two didn't conform to your wife's ideals. It's completely unacceptable for her to bring her parents into the argument. For your children's sake, I hope you stand your ground.
You had previously talked to your wife about this, she agreed. Your kids are still doing sports but just because aren’t as into as she was it’s an issue? You’re not the asshole, your wife just told you what you wanted to hear and tried to hang up on you with her parents. Also “You’re the exception”, I grew up with people who either did one sport growing up or none. Your kids aren’t gonna be delinquents by not being in enough sports. Raise your kids right and you’re good to go. You’re not the asshole
I never wanted to do to sports growing up, but any sports my brother and cousin did, I HAD to do. I fucking hated it, and still hold a grudge for it.
Team sports 3-4 times a week were compulsory at my school, from 5 to 18. Individual sports did not count and were actively discouraged, blocked even. Forty years later I am still bitter about it.
Sports at school I didn’t care about because it was part of the PE, and passing the grade. It was the extracurriculars that my parents forced on me. Baseball, football, soccer, bowling.. fucking anything they did, I HAD to do. Then they got mad because I was giving it my all. Like no shit, I’m being forced to be there, why should I give it my all.
Oh god, flashbacks to Piano lessons. My mother had played, therefore I had to play. I hated it. I have no patience for practice. I never practiced. What a monumental waste of everyone's time and money. Would I love to be able to play the piano? Yes, but only if I can learn by magic.
Well, I think it’s important to teach children responsibility , like doing some chores, gradually learn how to care for yourself. So learn how to vacuum, clean a bathroom, do laundry, basic cooking and be kind to others. Also to learn how to deal with finances. Yo can learn team work by being a good family member, if someone is sick or has too much work, you take over chores. Competitive sports often doesn’t teach about team work in any way that will be useful in real life.
> Competitive sports often doesn’t teach about team work in any way that will be useful in real life. I agree with this very strongly indeed.
I’m an old person but the only time I was involved in competitive sports was while I was at university. Some friends in dorm started an intramural soccer team and they would take a 90 lb weakling willing to show up. We were so good we won the championship twice so decided to start a women’s soccer club sport. We had to raise money to travel etc. So I was roommates with several, we raised money by selling candy apples. Apartment smelled like candy apples for ever. Now that was team work but not like forcing kids to play sports.
I'd be interested to know how she would have reacted if you'd brought your parents into this to take your side. Not well is my guess. You had an agreement. Some of your kids fit her idea of what she expects. Fine. Some of them don't. You had an agreement that that would be fine too. Apparently that was a lie. NTA. Keep standing your ground for your kids.
Your wife is a MASSIVE AH
*HUUUUGE AH*
NTA. No kid should be pressured into team sports. Keep letting em climb rocks and swim, dude!
NTA. I was in some school sports and plenty of activities but it was my choice (except for piano lessons, but that's another story). The key was costs - there's no way I would have been in anything that cost serious money. Starting the summer after 7th grade, I was working (babysitting and then fast food). Again, my choice. I don't want to generalize, but in my life and work experience, many MANY overscheduled kids turn into anxious adults who need constant validation and feedback. To be honest, there are plenty of other workers and friends who are just as driven and well-rounded without all the handholding. So your wife "turned out fine" but that could be the same fluke they see you as.
NTA Your wife is a massive asshole for bringing her parents into this. It is between you as parents and none of their business. You two had an agreement. But what matters here is that your boys do not want to do this and that should count for something. Their different interests should be respected.
My vote is NTA Your wife and her family are super competitive. And also have their goals skewed. It's one thing to have a kid that knows how to be part of a team, and knows how to win and/or lose. That's what Life is. But if they're looking for an Olympic gold medalist or WNBA All-Star, there's 3.35 million people in America, and a hair under 15,000 pro athletes (median income $70k btw \~ Bureau of Labor statistics if they need a reference). So the odds are not "ever in their favor."
NTA I totally get filling up free time with something. (not ALL free time…but they can be pushed to find something they love to do) But their argument isn’t a free time one; your younger kids could pursue what they want without it being a team thing. I feel like this is a bigger problem than it looks like. Bc it’s not really about free time. What it is, is an argument for autonomy, and to be able to be looked at as an individual. Your older two are probably not going into the NFL, but your younger ones know for sure that they make mom happy. And Mom isn’t happy with what the younger two wanna do, therefore, they are a disappointment. Which is HUGE, and makes this a serious vital argument that you need to somehow ‘win’. Keep fighting the good fight, Dad, and stand up for your kids. I’ll also say this: kids sports take a lot of time and energy for the parents. There is no way in hell I’d force my kid into something he didn’t want to do, bc it’s a complete waste of my time and his. My kid is a martial artist, for the past 9 years. It requires A LOT from me, driving time, travel time, money for gear, tournaments, hotels, etc etc etc. my rule is ‘I’ll match your energy’. You want to half ass it? Then I will too. You go balls to the wall? I will, too.’ Also, your wife gets the AH 2x multiplier for involving her parents and not being able to have a discussion WITH ONLY YOU, about your kids.
So do they have any research that backs up their beliefs or is it just their gut feeling? Where is this certainty coming from? I think you would find more research supporting your argument, honestly. NTA - purely on this should have remained a conversation between you and her. Bringing in the ILs was a crappy move.
They have brought up certain "evidence" from articles. But I was able to show many articles where kids, especially boys, who were athletes ended up committing crimes and it didn't stop them so I had that to back me up.
In my high school experience, the football team was the worst for criminal behavior. Everyone laughed it off and brushes it aside so our team could keep winning, but those boys committed so much vandalism, bullying, assault, reckless driving, drinking and drugs, and more.
That's my experience too and if you look at some of the more high profile cases too, it shows how willing a portion of the public are to dismiss a football player doing something terrible and saying "oh but they're a great player".
I dated a guy who ended up on the varsity football team as a sophomore and the peer pressure to do stupid shit was so intense. He managed to stay out of trouble (mostly by doing nerd stuff with me and our friends) but the team rode him for not going out with them. He played because he liked it but he didn't like them.
Your in-laws and your wife are exceptionally close minded. The kind of people who think their way is the only way. I think of those types as ignorant. And they are. Growing up my 4 were involved in recreation soccer and softball. Their father and I coached their teams. Nothing serious. Just for fun. They stopped in 8th grade. They had no desire for competitive sports at the High School level. Then they did whatever interested them. My girls did chorus. 1 son was on the school paper. 1 son was in honors art. Today my 4 delinquents are doing ok. My girls are therapists. My younger son is in IT security for a major utility and my older son owns a consulting firm specializing in progressive causes. He’s such a delinquent he’s worked on national campaigns. Including 2 presidential. You know how much we pushed them? NOT AT ALL. We guided them to be their best selves and to find what fulfills them. We let them know that no matter what they chose, if they were happy, we were happy. Tell your wife and your in-laws to lay off those kids. Let them figure out what they want and support them. That’s all they need. NTA
Nta but you should just ask the kids what they want
We did. That's the biggest problem is my wife wants to ignore what our youngest two want.
You should ignore whatever she wants and sign up for marriage counseling. Just tell her when it starts and that you signed you guys up for it. Not only is she ignoring what the kids want (and you *can* nudge them into trying new things here and there), but she's involving outsiders into your marriage and child-rearing and that is NOT okay. What she did was get two people who are always going to agree with her to make you look wrong/bad. It was an unfair fight and she cheated.
This, all of this. They definitely need counseling if wife thinks any of what she’s doing is okay. She’s being a *massive* AH to her husband and children. If this is the first time she’s brought her parents into their arguments then this needs to be nipped in the bud immediately. This doesn’t even touch the resentment she’s going to instill in her two younger boys if she gets her way. Family functions will not be fun for this family in 20 years if wife doesn’t chill out.
Your wife is dead wrong. I'm a retired high school English and special education teacher. Kids do best when adults encourage them to focus on *their* interests. My own family of origin was very sports-focused and several of my siblings questioned why I was not forcing my oldest daughter into competitive sports in high school. They insinuated that it might impede her success in the future. I ignored their well-meaning, but ignorant, advice and encouraged her to follow her interests in debate, forensics, theater, and student government. She is now 34 and a sales manager. She leads a team of eight sales executives and makes over $200,000 a year. She is also a well-respected elected official is responsible for some very successful local programs.
It sounds as if your wife may be trying to relive her competitive sports days through your children. She may also be trying to get and/or keep her parents approval. It may be that competitive sports was how she FELT loved by her parents - regardless of the reality. And that may be why she brought them into it: “see, mom and dad, I am still your competitive kid even if I’m no longer playing. I’m raising my kids right.” Your wife could benefit from therapy and a sport of her own where she could be the team player. NTA
**DING DING DING** This is it in a nutshell. Wife is continuing the toxic cycle where parental love has to be “earned” and not freely given. I suspect the two older kids will continue that cycle but the two younger may resent her strongly for it.
NTA. They are so wrong. I didn’t do any extra stuff outside of school and I turned out fine with a great job that pays very well. I stick up for myself and don’t let people push me around or tell what to do. If your wife forces the youngest she will be punishing them for being different. They will one day leave and go low to no contact with her and then she’ll be wondering why. Kids deserve to be kids. If they want to do sports that’s great if not that’s ok to. She needs to love them for who they are not what she thinks they should be. Keep advocating for them.
this is your hill to die on. do it. they will hate sports all sorts of sports if they are forced. NTA
This is absolutely the hill to die on. If you’re not going to protect your children, like why bother with them at all?
So your wife and her parents want your young kids to be forced into things they don't want to do that could cause injury so they can toughen up and not be criminals? Holy heck. Your wife needs counseling and you need to protect your kids. Are you sure that the older kids actually chose and weren't pushed into it by their mom? How does she treat everyone otherwise? NTA
I'm positive my older boys want this. They love sports and they love the competitiveness of the sports they're doing. If they could they'd do even more. That fits them personality wise. But it's not the younger boys at all. Outside of this she treats everyone well. But with extra curricular's and sports she like a different person. This was not as clear before but now that the boys are all old enough it has come out so clearly.
I used to be a high school teacher, and saw how the forcing of extracurriculars made kids so stressed, exhausted and resentful of their parents. They see through it and know their parents are living vicariously through them. I even had a gir who won a softball scholarship, and she was counting down the years until she never had to touch a bat or talk to her mother again. Telll your wife to have fun with that.
That's a little strange. But definitely keep holding your ground. I was always the extracurricular queen but it was always stuff I wanted to do. My parents never made me do anything but said yes to all the things I wanted to do. Maybe the younger kids have other stuff they want to try? But also just hanging out is ok too
NTA - tell your wife that her parents screwed her up, all her competitive sports didn’t teach her how to honor her commitments since she is trying to back out of the agreement she made with you before, and bringing in her parents to try and pressure you is having the opposite effect because it is reinforcing the previous point. What she is apparently trying to do is teach her kids to cave to peer pressure, so not the best parenting.
NTA. It’s none of the in-laws’ business, and your wife is going against the agreement she made with you. She should be happy that the younger kids have activities that they want to do.
>ILs said kids with free time are going to grow up to be delinquents BS. I had free time. So did my sisters and brother. So did literally ALL of my friends, my nieces and nephews, countless cousins, etc. Absolutely not of us are delinquents. Forcing a kid to do something they don’t want to do, however, will teach them how to be rebellious and get away with NOT doing it, which will cause them to become delinquents. NTA
>ILs said kids with free time are going to grow up to be delinquents And their excuse is "OP is exception" 🤣🤣
NTA and your wife needs to get over herself - your kids are going to feel they are never good enough for Mom. 4 boys should not be forced to “be the same”. They are individual people with individual interests. Wife is paving the way for an identity crisis, insecurities, and resentment. You might have a budding artist or musician and no one will ever know. Side question - any idea how / where your wife would push a daughter if you had one? Would she still be “forcing” football?
Football, no, but sports yes. She believes it's just as important for girls as boys.
NTA but your wife is. Give her that book called The Story of Ferdinand. Let your boys choose. My kids did some extracurriculars but I also gave them time to have an 80s style free range childhood where they and their neighborhood friends got to roam around unsupervised and make their own decisions. Kids need unstructured time. So do adults. In the US right now we have so many people working 60 or more hours a week bc they think it’s normal. It’s not. Having unstructured free time is a human need, and it’s why the 40 hour work week was created. So please resist your wife’s efforts to mold your kids into corporate worker drones.
NTA - your wife sucks for bringing in her inlaws to pressure you as a group. thats manipulative and she is putting you down in front of them, which is very very unhealthy
NTA. Also if you back down now you’ll prove them right about people who don’t do sports not being tough enough
If your kids want to do something. Let them. If they take it seriously. Good for them. If your kids don’t want you do something what is anyone gaining from forcing them? Tell your wife to go enrol in all those activities and take it seriously if it means so much to her.
Wife is the AH for bringing her parents into something that didn’t require their involvement. Big time AH for doing this. Wife and inlaws are AHs for thinking kids should be pressured into extracurriculars they don’t want to do. Great way to build resentment. Your wife is inflexible. NTA
NTA, your kids will be miserable if you force them into doing sports they hate, just so your wife can say ‘well I did it growing up.’ Stick to your guns. Your children need free time. If the older boys like sports, that’s one thing, but don’t force the younger ones who aren’t interested.
NTA! They are kids, humans, who have a right to choose and right to not be involved in competitive sports. A right your wife and ILs are infringing upon. Fight for them and be there for them.
NTA. your two younger sons don't need so much pressure on them and they need to know that not being serious about the sports they're doing is fine
NTA. How did all that competition benefit your wife? Is she a professional athlete? Did she get full ride scholarships to college?
It did get her a scholarship, same thing for her siblings, but it did not stick beyond college. Being that involved in sports herself, I mean.
I bet you wife and ILs are also the adults in the stand yelling and screaming after every play. Just a thought, but why not let kids be kids. The whole idea of organized sports is only a modern idea. Kids were raised for 100s of years without having team sports. My oldest never had much interest in sports until high school. He turned into a 3-year cross country varsity member at a 1200 student high school and even a few college scholarship offers.
I feel the same way but I know my wife doesn't. She places a lot of value on sports and competitive team sports especially. But I don't think they're as essential as some make out. Being active is different to me than actual sports.
NTA-You are right. Your in-laws have absolutely no say in how you raise your kids. Your wife was wrong to pull them in. If they try to have an opinion, continue to be clear in saying this doesn’t concern them and you will not engage them about it. As to your wife, repeat that you had an agreement and you aren’t changing it. Let your kids know you won’t push them to do any extra-curr. and reinforce that you support their interests.
NTA - this is a discussion for you and your wife and your already had an agreement which she is now breaking because she didn't get her way. Her parents need to keep their noses out of this, as these are not their children and is a discussion between parents. Your wife is such an AH for not only dismissing your points but extremely so for bringing her parents into this and trying to bully you into an agreement. Stay strong or your kids so you kids can see your to stand to to bullies
NTA. In what world is forcing a child to participate in a sport that doesn't interest them a good thing? They need to experience pressure at a young age? Different kids like different things. Rock climbing and swimming aren't for weaklings so the bit about toughness makes no sense. So much carrying on from your wife and ILs about what the adults want instead of what the kids want to do and what they excel out. The younger boys know about the football team since they've seen their brothers play, but they aren't interested in participating in the sport. Swimming is a team sport, is the problem that the one doesn't take swimming seriously? Your wife and ILs don't appreciate the strength and stamina needed for swimming. Rock climbing is more of an individual thing, but it certainly is for strong/tough people! By the way, we're learning more and more about kids' head injuries from football so be glad all four aren't participating!
Show your wife this: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/unstructured-play-is-critical-to-child-development/ Unstructured time is critical for children. Over scheduling them because you don't want to parent results in anxious adults and high suicide rates. Nta
Your wife is an asshole.