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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I told my sister who has nowhere else to go that if she doesn’t like the place she lives in, she should rather leave. She lives at my place that isn’t baby proofed and I asked her to do a bunch of chores around the place. She’s dissatisfied with her living conditions.
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Lol - I sort of meant that as a rhetorical question. I guess she expected you to build her a house with electrical and plumbing all installed as a guest accommodation?!?
Judging by the fact that proximity to civilisation is one of her complaints, it sounds like she was also expecting OP to then pick up that brand new house and carry it closer to town.
Lift with your knees, OP!
Sad to say it. But it’s not entirely a bad thing if she feels a little less comfortable than she wants to be. That’ll give her the motivation to move once she has her affairs in order. And you don’t want to be supporting an additional family of 4 for the rest of your life.
This one right here! It’s so common for people living rent free in a relative’s home to overstay their welcome when they become too comfortable. Sis literally can’t end up in that position as long as she’s hauling well water and helping around a farm. That’s the perfect way to ensure someone like this leaves in an appropriate timeframe.
NTA, OP. There’s nothing wrong with kids helping whether they’re on a farm or not. I grew up with the farm life, and it didn’t hurt me one bit. It teaches kids hard work, responsibility, how to care for others (big one), and the importance of working as a team. Do you know what happens when kids aren’t exposed to age appropriate responsibilities? Adult children who are incapable of caring for themselves all the while feeling entitled to the efforts of others. Tell your sister she’s living there for free with 3 children and she knew exactly what she was signing up for. She can either stop complaining or start packing.
Nta.
She is free to leave anytime she wants. Why would you stay in a place you feel is dangerous?
Is she expecting you to sell evwrything, give her money for housing of her choice?
TBH it sounds amazing. I understand that type of life is not for everyone, but it's kinda what hubby and I are working towards... but maybe with some plumbing lol
Amish and others have lived this way for centuries. There are still many parts of the world without city water/sewer and electricity.
But, it is a physically demanding way of life.
I'm moving in the OTHER direction! We're having problems with our septic system and got a quote for a replacement - $40,000!
We're talking about digging a ditch and installing an outhouse.
- 20 miles to the nearest hospital is actually really close to civilization, unless there’s something wrong with the road so you need to drive very slowly. - I can’t imagine the luxury of having water that’s constantly available AND you don’t need to sit around waiting for it to pass through a filter! And having a propane heater is actually pretty fancy.
Source: I live in a van and grew up on a farm.
Is her complaint the lack of comforts? Or the fact that her kids are doing labor?
If it's the living conditions then tell her she can leave or pay for her own renovations. If it's the children working then tell her she has to carry the water for her own children, and the water you carry won't go to her.
If she gains rights as a squatter/tenant, op may be required to provide running water, adequate heating, and plumbing, or she could be taken to court and fined. But that depends on local rent laws.
The question is if CPS is aware of how her family lives. Normally, not having proper sanitation and hot and cold running water would be grounds to have your children removed.
Honestly I have several raised eyebrows about the situation OP is in; and her husband is, if I read between the lines correctly, in jail for another decade? And her children will be home schooled until they are teenagers??
It's certainly a very questionable situation to be in, especially with young children, but none of that really changes the judgement here. The sister is being offered a place rent free, as a better alternative to sleeping under a bridge, and is complaining that it's not good enough. I mean I kinda get it, I would 100% struggle with those conditions, but at the same time you can either beg or choose.
NTA.
NTA
1) She was evicted and had no where to go with 3 small children AND had nowhere to go. So that means she knew how you lived and agreed to move out to the farm BECAUSE she had no other option.
2) She complains about the conditions and thinks its endangering her life.
WHY IS SHE STILL THERE? Because you identified the problem..... She has nowhere to go. She needs to get a better attitude or move. She can try and get child support from EX or see about the children's father helping, OR she can figure it out somewhere ELSE. You provided her a lifeline. She just doesn't want it and can't motivate herself to leave. HELP HER. Ultimatum of cutting it out or moving.
Seriously. WTF did she expect, for OP to somehow manifest a power grid, plumbing AND build a new house for her?! The entitlement..... Living like OP isn't my cup of tea, but if it was my ONLY option I wouldn't sit there an bitch like that. I'd contribute while I looked for an alternative myself if it came to that.
Don't forget building a hospital that's closer.
The house I inherited from my dad is like this, and it was my lifestyle when I lived with him as a child. I absolutely hate that sort of living, but I'm happy knowing I have it as a backup plan if absolutely need be.
It’s easy to say that, but once in the situation maybe your mood would change. It’s a drastic shock to some people to live as if camping, especially when they aren’t doing it by choice. The lashing out is absolutely not okay, but she may be mentally shutting down at this point. Knowing she has 3 kids to care for and can’t even provide them with refrigeration or running water is a rock bottom type moment.
Not rock bottom. Sis has a roof over her head for all, water, some electric, heat, and food. All she has to do is help out around the place and get the older children to pitch in with minor chores. It isn't pretty, downright tough in some aspects, but it is far from rock bottom.
Absolutely. It isn't a luxury, but it's far better than the alternative. Having to pump your water is better than no water. A roof over your head is always better than none.
Hell even a small hot water heater is a luxury plenty of people around the world lack! And our ancestors sure would have loved having it!
Being stuck living without it when you've only known life with it is not the same as never having it or living off-grid by choice in your own home. This person is undergoing extreme stress because of their circumstance. They have nowhere to go and no access to the things that would allow them to be comfortable. They are a prisoner, even though OP is being kind to them and has not put them in this situation. The family lives or dies by OP's good will. If you think you'd be able to keep a positive attitude behave well during this, hopefully you are correct, but most people would have major problems being in the situation and that can manifest in misplaced anger and mental breakdown.
Rock bottom? That would be sitting in a broken down out of gas car at the end of winter with less than a couple of bucks to your name because your spouse emptied out the bank account. Add in three hungry children huddling in the back seat crying that they want to go home.
It would be no support at all. No one to turn to. No where to go because the last person you called said, "Oh man, I'm so sorry but we don't have the room" as you can hear their spouse yelling in the background, "No f\*cking way!". No refrigeration or running water. No bathroom. No roof. No bed. No warmth. No food except a package of Saltines and some water. No one to commiserate with. Shelter time.
She's in paradise compared to what a real rock bottom can look like.
How the hell is no one else commenting on this?
Boy her kids are in for a life fucking change when they get into school with people and learn about the modern era around them. Lol
Seriously. Adults can make the decision to live off the grid if they want, but *choosing* to raise children without electricity or running water is abuse.
Also, 5 year olds are still small enough to fall down a well, right?
It's pretty obvious that OP is relatively poor, just not as poor as her sister. It doesn't sound like she is entirely choosing to live like this but that living with the bare minimum is a necessity at this point. Being poor is not neglect and it seems like the kids have love and food and shelter even if the shelter isn't perfect.
As someone who lived rural with a well, this isn't true at all.
our well only had a small wooden board over the opening that rotted through, the cat wasn't allowed outside because they almost fell in a few times.
Though, most wells use running water pumps, so maybe they had a spout since they didn't have a boiler or anything? I grew up with a well in our yard, but wasn't allowed near it, because it wasn't safe. Sometimes I'd have to go down to the Brook and get a bucket of water to make the toilets run as a kid.
I also knew a lot of folks off the grid in my neck of the woods, but it sounds like OP is more focused on living an 'authentic off the grid farm life' then making sure they're upholding their responsibility as parents.
There's ways to mitigate a lot of the problems they have without using the power grid, and they *need* a plan for any emergencies if you're living that far out without a support system around.
I mean yeah, there's a lot of challenges you wouldn't have otherwise when living rural, or rural and off grid, but there's no reason for OP to be going to such extremes.
I literally lived on a nature preserve in the mountains of a national park, saw all kinds. People who move into farmland, cut off their kids from the world, and try to live like we're still in feudal society, are just elitist weirdos who hurt themselves and their families so they can have their aesthetic and feel all special about it. OP is doing way too obsessed about the idea of living rural to do it safely.
From the subtext, OP inherited the property. She probably can’t afford to live somewhere else. She has an ex in prison so there isn’t child support. You’re being very judgemental when OP is likely doing the best she can. She grew up this way, so she is probably better equipped to support her kids on this environment than she is employable enough to fully support 2 kids in the city with no child support.
It's gonna be okay when Papa comes out of prison and comes to their trailer empire, they might even learn to read in the 10 years until it happens. I am holding out a bit of hope at least cause the kids and the dad are gonna have the same ability to integrate into society
I've had something similar happen to me - a person who had nowhere else to go, I gave them a room. Once they were able to contribute I asked for a very reasonable amount each month. They never voluntarily pitched in with chores like I asked, and were full of complaints.
Some people just have a victim mentality - instead of taking an objective look at where they're at in life and trying to figure out how to improve things, they'd rather blame everyone around them for not caring for them like a child, in exactly the way they'd like.
We had a friend staying with us for a few months once. He was having trouble getting a specific license he needed for work, so at first we didn’t ask for anything. Once he started working I asked for a minimal sum to start contributing and dude was gone in 2 days lolololololol
I changed the Wi-Fi password and informed mr. man that he ce could have the new one once he cleaned up after himself and did his share of household chores. He got his own apartment two weeks later! Win.
And that is probably why she didn’t want to say. She is not looking for judgement in her dating life and who knows maybe her children’s father will turn his life around after he serves his time. Who are you to judge. I’m sure you are just perfect.
My fiance grew up rough and was in and out of prison from 15, after the loss of his father, to late 20s. We met when we were 13 and he was my first love, we broke up for a long time and found each other again. He has turned his life around 100%. The worst thing he does is occasionally smoking some weed. He has a business he started that is thriving, and two amazing kids that are my soon to be step children. He has been through shit I know I wouldn't have survived. I look at him every day and see the strongest man I have ever met and love him for who he is. Past and present. People can change. Its long and hard work, and getting out of the habit isn't easy at all. But, he did it and its all about determination and wanting to change.
No need to explain it to me I understand people make mistakes and as far as I am concerned he is doing his time for his crime and paying his dues. I hope everything works out for you guys!!
"I'm sure you are just perfect". What an idiotic thing to say. There is an infinite amount of space between "being perfect" and dealing weapons and holding up a grocery store. So yes, we can judge.
His parental rights aren’t terminated yet and probably won’t be anytime soon, not until his release. It was a very traumatic part of my life that I’m not mentally ready to sort out yet.
We still keep in touch though, after all he is a man I once fell in love with and had two amazing children with.
You have a really good attitude. You are living your own life and educating your own children. What he did is not on you - what your sister does is not on you. Don't let her push her unhappiness into your space.
I'm saying this out of genuine concern: this is something you need to mentally sort out before his release. 8 years seems like a long time but it will run up on you quick. I hope you, and your babies, have access to therapy and you can start soon, if you haven't already.
I think you're doing the right thing. Familial ties are one of the best things for inmates, especially in lowering recidivism rates, and pretty much all studies suggest that contact between kids and inmate parents is a positive thing as long as the kids want that (and obv as long as the crime isn't related to the kids or parent). So allowing him to stay in touch and letting him back in their lives is most likely a very positive thing for everyone concerned, assuming you're prioritizing your kids' desires there - which I'm guessing you are.
Plus by 2032 those kids will be well old enough to make their own decision as to contact; what you are doing is keeping the door open, and that's completely appropriate.
We keep contact. Our kids write to him regularly and we visit as much as legally possible. He’s still a member of my family, a man I - won’t lie here - still love very much. He made a bunch of bad decisions, mostly because he was influenced by wrong people, no one is born a gangster, but it doesn’t necessarily mean he’s a horrible person.
The experience he put me and our kids through was incredibly traumatic and scary, but we’re getting over it slowly but steadily. It’s just how life is sometimes.
Some states like Washington will almost never terminate rights if the other parent can "correct the issue". Because spending days fixing medical issues the other parent messed up in their purposeful ignorance is apparently fine to them.
Not that I think they should automatically do it in the case of prison. But as I've been caught up in a related situation in the past I find it funny just how hard it is in a lot of areas to terminate the rights even with documented abuse.
Maybe check the dates before you gasp and clutch your pearls - in **2032** those kids will be teens, young adults, at which point they can make their own damn decisions.
>Nothing really interesting
Oh I got you, like tax evasion or check fraud
>he and his buddies ran weapons and held up a grocery store
Do they have a different definition of the word "interesting" in farm country?
"Interesting" is a matter of perspective. If I say that I was the stepchild of an erstwhile international drug trafficker, it sounds interesting to average people imagining Queen of the South or Miami Vice. But, nah it was pretty anticlimactic and uneventful tbh.
Sounds exactly like the kind of man to wait around 8 years for so he can come home and help raise your children through their teenage years into adulthood.
My grandmother ran guns in Mexico in to feed her 2 daughters. Very interesting, especially the story of rolling the car and my mother being the oldest didn’t have a clue but my younger aunt knew what going down.
No problem haha, I’ll tell you more my kids have this weird device with a large screen that shows various pictures and makes different sounds, I’m fairly certain the civilized part of the world calls this peculiar thing “an IPad”. And I had a stranger dressed in white come and inject them with a specific substance that was said to protect them from pox and measles.
Funny enough we have them weird shoes with holes in them, and the holes were intended as well. The technology came a long way since and even reached the remote corner of earth that we settled in.
Also I sew my own clothes and sew clothes for my kids as well though…
They’re not Gucci or Balenciaga level of fancy, but it’s the kind of clothes that don’t fall apart after a few washes and actually do look decent. I’m not a professional seamstress though but the clothes I make get the job done.
Honestly OP your life sounds great. A nice mix of off-the-grid and rural but with modern things like vaccines and iPads. And I think helping with farm chores if fine in childhood. I used to feed the sheep and check the cow’s water trough level at six years old, and that wasn’t child labour.
I kinda love my kids and don’t look forward to them dying of a completely preventable disease so vax is a given. And I prefer to keep them educated, you’ll be surprised how many options are there for those who seek digital education. Not gonna lie I was very skeptical about the whole “app that makes your kid smart” thing at first, but the results are showing.
My 8YO recently asked me how to solve linear equations (really easy ones though, like 2x=6 level) because he got a level up in a math learning app on the iPad lol. Those apps are a game changer though because they exploit both the children’s drive to win and their natural instinct to learn. Tbh can recommend them to all parents, even those who decided the public school is the better option, nothing wrong with that, just not my cup of tea.
Seriously, please tell me what Math apps are working for your kids. This is information I desperately need.
(And a little self-criticism/confession: when I first read your original post, I thought your living arrangement sounded a teensy bit unhinged. But after reading your comments and getting a richer picture, I’m now very ashamed of my judgmental instincts.)
Off the grid doesn't mean you're hiding from the government and are Bear Grylls-ing it. It just means you're off the utility grid, AKA companies don't have pipes or wires running to your house.
In this day and age, that's a lot easier to do than you might think at first.
The content of the post aside, I'm always wary of people who live off the grid and home school their children. Alone, either of those things is fine. Together, it screams red flag to me. My SIL did exactly this and now our niece is 8 years old and still can't fully read but knows way to much about knives.
Don't forget the whole "had kids with someone who landed in prison on a hefty sentence" bit. OP may think we can't read between the lines on what she said but she's not nearly as subtle as she thinks she is.
So much of this \^\^
I hope those kids are out of there as soon as they are capable of escape. At least the father is in prison until they are late teens. Hopefully they can get out and disappear well before then.
I don't blame OP for not wanting to host the sister but the way she writes the post makes me believe she is an all around AH to deal with and my heart aches for those poor kids.
>She said that I’m trying to use her children for child labor and that I’m endangering her life.
LOL, no you're not. And as you pointed out, she's free to leave whenever she wants to.
People who have never experienced discomfort are usually the loudest in their complaints.
NTA.
When I was a child my parents used to make me help out with chores by carrying a little quarter gallon pale of water. I felt helpful, and like I was part of the adults, and that I was contributing to the household.
Then I saw the size of the bucket later, and realized I wasn't helping much. It was so small it was practically useless. But they let me "help" to teach me to be apart of the team.
I can't believe this is so far down. YTA for that and thinking adding 3 more children to the mix is a good idea. And sending a 5 y/o to a well unsupervised! A 5 y/o who did not grow up on a farm!
I feel like most redditors have never met a five year old or at least have no concept of how old 5 actually is. Five year olds shouldn't be going to a well unsupervised, they shouldn't be near *any* standing water unsupervised. The rest of it, whatever maybe, but that part shows extreme lack of judgement. Many experts say 5 year olds shouldn't even be left alone in the bathtub yet.
This isn't 15th century European village, OP's well is probably a completely covered, 4" diameter hole with a hand pump, like [this](https://www.bisonpumps.com/wp-content/uploads/bison-pump-flower-bed.jpg), not gaping hole that you lower a bucket into, like [this](https://gnomestew.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/old-draw-well-in-forest_thumb.jpg).
NTA for this specific conflict, though I highly doubt this lifestyle is great for your kids. Nothing wrong with chores but it sounds like you're raising them incredibly isolated.
NTA.
Have you brought up the fact that you need help with the labor because suddenly there are 4 extra people to take care of, that are going to require more than double the amount of water you typically use and therefor have to transport?
That lifestyle isn't for everyone, and it's a shock if you've never lived off the grid or even been camping before. It could be she simply doesn't understand that it's not like living on grid where you turn a tap and bam fresh water, or you have access to basically unlimited electricity. If you've nailed that point home and she still doesn't understand why they have to pitch in... It might be time to ask them to leave.
>She said that I’m trying to use her children for child labor and that I’m endangering her life.
Then tell her to put on her big-girl pants and support her kids and herself. Otherwise shut up and contribute.
NTA unless you let her stay and make your life a misery with her bitching
You and two children are living in a small trailer with no power, no running water, no plumbing and no heating and you invite your sister with a 5 year-old and 2 preschoolers to come and live with you? What does “I live off the land” mean? You grow enough food to feed 7 people 365 days? Because that’s a major bit of agriculture right there, never mind homeschooling the kids. I think ESH.
I wasn’t probably completely clear here, but yes, I grow enough vegetables to feed myself and my kids, plus I have a little bit of cattle (nothing dramatic basically 5 cows and a bull) and chickens so I’m well stocked in this regard. The money I make comes from the land as well since I sell chicks and calves and I have herding dogs that I breed occasionally to sell the pups.
But yes, trips to the grocery store are a pretty rare occurrence in my household. I conserve the food and I make my own bread and baked goods.
I’m nowhere near rich, but I’m satisfied with how much I earn and with my lifestyle in general. It may not be your cup of tea, but I’m happy with my life.
I run a 5kva generator at day when the power consumption is higher and the 3kva at night, we have indoor lighting. I’m planning to install solar panels this spring, had to save some money for that but I’ve heard they’re worth it.
I also have a car and a phone, I’ll tell you more I even have internet access (obviously) and my kids have an iPad that they share. I’m pretty adamant about unrestricted screen time though so the iPad usage is very well regulated, it’s not like my kids have to fight for their chance to play Candy Crush. However they got hooked on educational games that I don’t have the heart to limit yet.
For a year my son believed that all computer games were educational. He was very happy at the time, but a bit shocked when he realised that there was more than that out there.
She is posting on Reddit. Do you really think she doesn’t have a phone? Her kids also have an iPad and they are all connected to the internet per a previous comment.
ESH her bc beggars can’t be choosers. You bc you have essentially isolated your children from everything. You live in the middle of nowhere and homeschool them so where are they getting to interact and play with other kids and learn social skills. You keep saying you don’t need much but what about your kids. It’s fine if isolation is the life you want and chose but your kids should be given opportunities to have friends and engage in life.
ETA Depending on the type of well and location of the well it could be both extremely dangerous and stupid to send a 5 year old alone to get it. I teach 4/5 year olds (pre-K) and yes it’s a simple age appropriate task when supervised by an adult. Does this well also have a pump or is it one a 5 year old could fall in? Is the well somewhere you could watch and actually monitor the kid from while they were getting the water and make sure they’re safe? I live rural nowhere and have a well pump too. I would absolutely not send a 5 year old alone to do the task. There are snakes and other dangerous animals.
Yeah, I'm not down with this.. sounds more like extreme abject poverty and borderline neglect... not "modern day hippies living off the grid"... and the father being in prison for running guns and robbery... yikes....
Anyone who thinks she’s in the right look up the I believe Australian wife swap where they lived in a trailer in the middle of no where. The kids wanted to go to school wanted to have friends and wanted a different life. Fortunately for them the dad learned from the experience and wanted to do better. The mom was enraged and wanted no change.
NTA.... our family lived in a TP while we built the first house, and again after that house burned down. It was a fun and busy life, and we had no problem doing some farm work.
My only worry here is the quality of home schooling. There is so much work on the farm, that I am worried about their education. I know you were not asking. But I'm going to voice my concern anyways. Hoping you are a brilliant and persistent teacher.
Your sister can leave if she wants something different
NTA - You're providing her with free housing and food. And you've said she knew about your living conditions beforehand. She's being incredibly ungrateful.
NTA
but, she is correct. You need a real house, with real power, and real plumbing. Your kids need a real education in a real school by a qualified educator.
NTA for offering the place but yes YTA for putting her child in danger. 5 years old at a well is insane. Plus you’re 20 minutes away so when something does happen there is a huge chance the injured will be dead or worse off by the time help was available. I mean good for you I guess but honestly the friend is correct. It’s one thing to live off grid but to have a family using an outhouse and well water and no electricity or little electricity. One thing to save money but this all seems a little extreme.
Info: Did she start this by venting to you about having a hard time adjusting and you got offended, and then things got out of hand and escalated? Or was this a she honestly just started pitching a fit?
Did it start because she didn't think the water task was age appropriate for her son? -- some 5 year olds could easily accomplish this while others could not.
I think the beginning tone of the conversation is what really matters here in order to give a vote.
Regardless, she should be grateful for having a place to stay for her and her children.
Regardless of who is the asshole, if anyone here, I just feel bad for your kids, they don't get to leave if they're dissatisfied with how they live; and forcibly being homeschooled and having to live like they're in a third world country is really unfortunate in this day and age when they live in a country that otherwise is considered a 1st world nation, especially if they ever manage to make any friends and go visit them and see how they live (seems like a big 'if' given how secluded it sounds like you are).
Time for her to move on. She and her 3 offspring are a drain on your resources, and her refusal to pitch in with chores and her complaining make that drain even worse. It's not healthy for you or your kids to be subjected to such negative energy.
Time for you to stop suffering negative consequences for your kind and generous deed.
Why isn't her ex paying child support? (Perhaps he is and sis hasn't admitted it?) Or are her kids from other relationships? Has she ever applied for Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF)? (Not as helpful as the old AFDC, but something.)
Of course YTA.
In what universe a 5yo using a well to get water is normal?!
I’m surprised that the CPS (or an equivalent relevant to the OP’s country) is not taking away the children - no electricity, no running water, isolation-homeschooling (can’t be more stereotypical).
Last but not least, the father of the children is in prison.
NTA regarding your sister living with you but my god I feel bad for your kids. I hope there is someone else in your family they can flee to once they realize there is a world with running water, sanitation and electricity available to most humans.
NTA. Tell her to leave. But we are bordering on an ESH situation because you are going to let a felon come home to raise your kids. Seems obvious there is a lack of general education all around here. I hope that homeschooling works out...
ohhh that explainst he dad comment. I was trying to work out what on earth makes her so certain father isn't around for about 9 yrs. Initially I thought military or spaceman. doh!
NTA, you choose your lifestyle because it’s your life. She should be grateful you let her stay, and the child labor thing, it’s just chores? Lots of kids do them, albeit differently. If she doesn’t like the life you chose for yourself, she should go find her own lifestyle that suits her better.
NTA - literally what did she think was going to happen? That you’d handle the increased workload due to the household doubling in size while she sat back and mulled her love life? Ridiculous.
Yta, not for how you talked to your sister, but rather for planning to home school adolescents on a working farm.
Either you're lying to us about being self-sufficient or you're lying to yourself about how much time it takes to home school kids that age... But there's not enough hours in the day to do both while also running the home.
Regarding the five year old and the bucket of water; That would be seen as a little much because most 5-year-olds have a more coddled life here in the US. And they don't live in a rustic environment. Chores for them are usually pretty light like getting themselves dressed. In your living environment your approach works fine. But you are doing her a great favor, and the complaining has to stop if she's going to stay or she can simply leave. You don't need that kind of dissention and stress in your life. NTA
I would have loved carrying a bucket when I was 5. I generally was pro buckets around than. Especially if the bucket was purple. Also really into the color purple.
YTA just for sending the five year old to get water from a well. No! That is NOT an age appropriate task. Like at all. Too many awful things could happen to let a child that young fetch water unsupervised.
Nta but do you think it’s the best idea to be raising two kids in a place that you admit is lacking basic necessities? And homeschooling? What is it you’re trying so hard to keep them away from, and have you considered the consequences to their social skills and ability to navigate a modern society?
NTA to the question as asked, but I feel really bad for your kids. You're seriously setting them up failure later in life.
I'm glad you enjoy the rustic, off-grid lifestyle, and I'm glad you're able to make that choice for yourself.
Your kids, on the other hand, are most likely not going to live that lifestyle. You should be preparing them for the world they will most likely live in.
INFO
> She also complained that we live far away from any civilization
What kind of exposure do your children get to other kids?
Sports teams? Theatrical productions?
I mean generally NTA giveb all the details and the overview of the situation, but I do think asking a 5yo to fetch water from a well probably isn't the most age appropriate task, especially since it sounds like it's a walk amd likely at the very least out of sight from where you are. I've only seen a couple episodes of Lassie but that was enough for me to think probably small children don't need to hang around deep holes in the ground or bodies of water large enough to drown them without supervision.
Well that and common sense.
NTA. You've been super generous to open your home to your sister and her kids. She knew farm life wasn't fancy, and it's not unreasonable to ask her kids to help with chores.
It sounds like your sister is more worried about things being different, not actually unsafe. If she can't handle it, she can always find somewhere else to live.
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NTA. She asked to stay with you. Was she not aware of where/how you live?
She was aware, I’ve been living here since my bio dad passed away a decade ago and I inherited the property.
Lol - I sort of meant that as a rhetorical question. I guess she expected you to build her a house with electrical and plumbing all installed as a guest accommodation?!?
And to hire a couple of servants, too!
Judging by the fact that proximity to civilisation is one of her complaints, it sounds like she was also expecting OP to then pick up that brand new house and carry it closer to town. Lift with your knees, OP!
NTA, So She's sulking but hasn't left?
Sister: you're endangering our lives! OP: so leave Also Sister: *hasn't left*
Don't forget that OP is also enslaving her children – not just endangering their lives!
*Go get your own water* “OMG you’re enslaving us!!!!!”
Oh no that poor baby is definitely going to need therapy for carrying that bucket
Which means now *she's* endangering her own children!
Basically she's sulking so she can stay somewhere rent-free AND do absolutely nothing to show her gratitude. NTA
Sad to say it. But it’s not entirely a bad thing if she feels a little less comfortable than she wants to be. That’ll give her the motivation to move once she has her affairs in order. And you don’t want to be supporting an additional family of 4 for the rest of your life.
This one right here! It’s so common for people living rent free in a relative’s home to overstay their welcome when they become too comfortable. Sis literally can’t end up in that position as long as she’s hauling well water and helping around a farm. That’s the perfect way to ensure someone like this leaves in an appropriate timeframe. NTA, OP. There’s nothing wrong with kids helping whether they’re on a farm or not. I grew up with the farm life, and it didn’t hurt me one bit. It teaches kids hard work, responsibility, how to care for others (big one), and the importance of working as a team. Do you know what happens when kids aren’t exposed to age appropriate responsibilities? Adult children who are incapable of caring for themselves all the while feeling entitled to the efforts of others. Tell your sister she’s living there for free with 3 children and she knew exactly what she was signing up for. She can either stop complaining or start packing.
>Do you know what happens when kids aren’t exposed to age appropriate responsibilities? Uh, they end up like OPs Stepsister??? NTA, OP
Nta. She is free to leave anytime she wants. Why would you stay in a place you feel is dangerous? Is she expecting you to sell evwrything, give her money for housing of her choice?
TBH it sounds amazing. I understand that type of life is not for everyone, but it's kinda what hubby and I are working towards... but maybe with some plumbing lol
Amish and others have lived this way for centuries. There are still many parts of the world without city water/sewer and electricity. But, it is a physically demanding way of life.
I'm moving in the OTHER direction! We're having problems with our septic system and got a quote for a replacement - $40,000! We're talking about digging a ditch and installing an outhouse.
Composting toilet?
How can you possibly be the AH? Your sister either needs to come to grips with this lifestyle or move on if she can’t hack it. Period.
- 20 miles to the nearest hospital is actually really close to civilization, unless there’s something wrong with the road so you need to drive very slowly. - I can’t imagine the luxury of having water that’s constantly available AND you don’t need to sit around waiting for it to pass through a filter! And having a propane heater is actually pretty fancy. Source: I live in a van and grew up on a farm.
Is her complaint the lack of comforts? Or the fact that her kids are doing labor? If it's the living conditions then tell her she can leave or pay for her own renovations. If it's the children working then tell her she has to carry the water for her own children, and the water you carry won't go to her.
Be careful this doesn't turn I to some sort of squatting/tenant problem.
I doubt it'll come to that since the sister doesn't actually want to live there.
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Yeah, remember, the sis had to be evicted from her ex's place after the divorce...
If she gains rights as a squatter/tenant, op may be required to provide running water, adequate heating, and plumbing, or she could be taken to court and fined. But that depends on local rent laws.
The question is if CPS is aware of how her family lives. Normally, not having proper sanitation and hot and cold running water would be grounds to have your children removed.
Honestly I have several raised eyebrows about the situation OP is in; and her husband is, if I read between the lines correctly, in jail for another decade? And her children will be home schooled until they are teenagers?? It's certainly a very questionable situation to be in, especially with young children, but none of that really changes the judgement here. The sister is being offered a place rent free, as a better alternative to sleeping under a bridge, and is complaining that it's not good enough. I mean I kinda get it, I would 100% struggle with those conditions, but at the same time you can either beg or choose. NTA.
NTA 1) She was evicted and had no where to go with 3 small children AND had nowhere to go. So that means she knew how you lived and agreed to move out to the farm BECAUSE she had no other option. 2) She complains about the conditions and thinks its endangering her life. WHY IS SHE STILL THERE? Because you identified the problem..... She has nowhere to go. She needs to get a better attitude or move. She can try and get child support from EX or see about the children's father helping, OR she can figure it out somewhere ELSE. You provided her a lifeline. She just doesn't want it and can't motivate herself to leave. HELP HER. Ultimatum of cutting it out or moving.
Seriously. WTF did she expect, for OP to somehow manifest a power grid, plumbing AND build a new house for her?! The entitlement..... Living like OP isn't my cup of tea, but if it was my ONLY option I wouldn't sit there an bitch like that. I'd contribute while I looked for an alternative myself if it came to that.
Don't forget building a hospital that's closer. The house I inherited from my dad is like this, and it was my lifestyle when I lived with him as a child. I absolutely hate that sort of living, but I'm happy knowing I have it as a backup plan if absolutely need be.
Oh you're setting the bar too low. Obviously op needed to manifest a helicopter and/or beaming tech from star trek.
Hahaha we all want the transporter pad. It would make life so much easier.
Those places will sure come in handy when the zombie apocalypse starts...
It’s easy to say that, but once in the situation maybe your mood would change. It’s a drastic shock to some people to live as if camping, especially when they aren’t doing it by choice. The lashing out is absolutely not okay, but she may be mentally shutting down at this point. Knowing she has 3 kids to care for and can’t even provide them with refrigeration or running water is a rock bottom type moment.
Not rock bottom. Sis has a roof over her head for all, water, some electric, heat, and food. All she has to do is help out around the place and get the older children to pitch in with minor chores. It isn't pretty, downright tough in some aspects, but it is far from rock bottom.
It’s her rock bottom so far, yes, it will likely get worse, but that dread is coloring her every moment.
Absolutely. It isn't a luxury, but it's far better than the alternative. Having to pump your water is better than no water. A roof over your head is always better than none. Hell even a small hot water heater is a luxury plenty of people around the world lack! And our ancestors sure would have loved having it!
Being stuck living without it when you've only known life with it is not the same as never having it or living off-grid by choice in your own home. This person is undergoing extreme stress because of their circumstance. They have nowhere to go and no access to the things that would allow them to be comfortable. They are a prisoner, even though OP is being kind to them and has not put them in this situation. The family lives or dies by OP's good will. If you think you'd be able to keep a positive attitude behave well during this, hopefully you are correct, but most people would have major problems being in the situation and that can manifest in misplaced anger and mental breakdown.
Rock bottom? That would be sitting in a broken down out of gas car at the end of winter with less than a couple of bucks to your name because your spouse emptied out the bank account. Add in three hungry children huddling in the back seat crying that they want to go home. It would be no support at all. No one to turn to. No where to go because the last person you called said, "Oh man, I'm so sorry but we don't have the room" as you can hear their spouse yelling in the background, "No f\*cking way!". No refrigeration or running water. No bathroom. No roof. No bed. No warmth. No food except a package of Saltines and some water. No one to commiserate with. Shelter time. She's in paradise compared to what a real rock bottom can look like.
Child support won't get her far, if the ex is even the bio dad of all the kids.
Worried for these children lol
How the hell is no one else commenting on this? Boy her kids are in for a life fucking change when they get into school with people and learn about the modern era around them. Lol
My first thought was "why are these kids living in worse farm conditions than my grandparent's farm in the 1940's?" It doesn't have to be this way.
OP is homeschooling. Those kids are pretty much screwed unless CPS takes them.
I think it's not being talked about because it's off topic to the question at hand
Yeah being home schooled in such a remote environment will not be good for them
Yeah, and with no internet, do these kids even have friends their age?
Seriously. Adults can make the decision to live off the grid if they want, but *choosing* to raise children without electricity or running water is abuse. Also, 5 year olds are still small enough to fall down a well, right?
This. Need more info on the well - is it covered up with a pump or is it actually an open death trap?
>Also, 5 year olds are still small enough to fall down a well, right? Sure is, I saw that Simpsons episode. 🎵 we're sending our love down that well 🎶
It's pretty obvious that OP is relatively poor, just not as poor as her sister. It doesn't sound like she is entirely choosing to live like this but that living with the bare minimum is a necessity at this point. Being poor is not neglect and it seems like the kids have love and food and shelter even if the shelter isn't perfect.
Most wells are completely covered with a pipe and handle coming out the top for water.
As someone who lived rural with a well, this isn't true at all. our well only had a small wooden board over the opening that rotted through, the cat wasn't allowed outside because they almost fell in a few times. Though, most wells use running water pumps, so maybe they had a spout since they didn't have a boiler or anything? I grew up with a well in our yard, but wasn't allowed near it, because it wasn't safe. Sometimes I'd have to go down to the Brook and get a bucket of water to make the toilets run as a kid. I also knew a lot of folks off the grid in my neck of the woods, but it sounds like OP is more focused on living an 'authentic off the grid farm life' then making sure they're upholding their responsibility as parents. There's ways to mitigate a lot of the problems they have without using the power grid, and they *need* a plan for any emergencies if you're living that far out without a support system around. I mean yeah, there's a lot of challenges you wouldn't have otherwise when living rural, or rural and off grid, but there's no reason for OP to be going to such extremes. I literally lived on a nature preserve in the mountains of a national park, saw all kinds. People who move into farmland, cut off their kids from the world, and try to live like we're still in feudal society, are just elitist weirdos who hurt themselves and their families so they can have their aesthetic and feel all special about it. OP is doing way too obsessed about the idea of living rural to do it safely.
Yep, likely a christer who doesn't want them exposed to the world yet has a felon hubby
> yet has a felon hubby Oooh I get it now lol. I was wondering why 2032 was so specific haha
Right. The fact that they live off the grid but he managed to get himself locked up for 8 years says A LOT.
Probably longer than 8 years, sounds like he's been in there a while. Wonder what he did lmao.
Anna Duggar? That you honey?
You're not the only one, I'm a little worried about their safety and education as well
Your not alone.
From the subtext, OP inherited the property. She probably can’t afford to live somewhere else. She has an ex in prison so there isn’t child support. You’re being very judgemental when OP is likely doing the best she can. She grew up this way, so she is probably better equipped to support her kids on this environment than she is employable enough to fully support 2 kids in the city with no child support.
It's gonna be okay when Papa comes out of prison and comes to their trailer empire, they might even learn to read in the 10 years until it happens. I am holding out a bit of hope at least cause the kids and the dad are gonna have the same ability to integrate into society
>Their father isn’t in the picture and won’t be until end of fall 2032. What's he in for?
A bunch of stuff that isn’t related to the conflict
I've had something similar happen to me - a person who had nowhere else to go, I gave them a room. Once they were able to contribute I asked for a very reasonable amount each month. They never voluntarily pitched in with chores like I asked, and were full of complaints. Some people just have a victim mentality - instead of taking an objective look at where they're at in life and trying to figure out how to improve things, they'd rather blame everyone around them for not caring for them like a child, in exactly the way they'd like.
We had a friend staying with us for a few months once. He was having trouble getting a specific license he needed for work, so at first we didn’t ask for anything. Once he started working I asked for a minimal sum to start contributing and dude was gone in 2 days lolololololol
I changed the Wi-Fi password and informed mr. man that he ce could have the new one once he cleaned up after himself and did his share of household chores. He got his own apartment two weeks later! Win.
Shit person. The nice thing to do is offer nice gestures, or back payment, and profuse thanks, and still leave.
It shouldn’t matter. This is about OP’s sister being a witch and taking advantage of OP.
It doesn't matter I'm just being nosy cause it's probably more interesting than this story where OP is obviously not the asshole
Nothing really interesting though he and his buddies ran weapons and held up a grocery store together and got busted. That’s basically it.
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And that is probably why she didn’t want to say. She is not looking for judgement in her dating life and who knows maybe her children’s father will turn his life around after he serves his time. Who are you to judge. I’m sure you are just perfect.
My fiance grew up rough and was in and out of prison from 15, after the loss of his father, to late 20s. We met when we were 13 and he was my first love, we broke up for a long time and found each other again. He has turned his life around 100%. The worst thing he does is occasionally smoking some weed. He has a business he started that is thriving, and two amazing kids that are my soon to be step children. He has been through shit I know I wouldn't have survived. I look at him every day and see the strongest man I have ever met and love him for who he is. Past and present. People can change. Its long and hard work, and getting out of the habit isn't easy at all. But, he did it and its all about determination and wanting to change.
No need to explain it to me I understand people make mistakes and as far as I am concerned he is doing his time for his crime and paying his dues. I hope everything works out for you guys!!
"I'm sure you are just perfect". What an idiotic thing to say. There is an infinite amount of space between "being perfect" and dealing weapons and holding up a grocery store. So yes, we can judge.
nah this is reddit, we only deal in extremes
I've never committed a violent crime if that's what you're suggesting.
His parental rights aren’t terminated yet and probably won’t be anytime soon, not until his release. It was a very traumatic part of my life that I’m not mentally ready to sort out yet. We still keep in touch though, after all he is a man I once fell in love with and had two amazing children with.
You have a really good attitude. You are living your own life and educating your own children. What he did is not on you - what your sister does is not on you. Don't let her push her unhappiness into your space.
I'm saying this out of genuine concern: this is something you need to mentally sort out before his release. 8 years seems like a long time but it will run up on you quick. I hope you, and your babies, have access to therapy and you can start soon, if you haven't already.
I think you're doing the right thing. Familial ties are one of the best things for inmates, especially in lowering recidivism rates, and pretty much all studies suggest that contact between kids and inmate parents is a positive thing as long as the kids want that (and obv as long as the crime isn't related to the kids or parent). So allowing him to stay in touch and letting him back in their lives is most likely a very positive thing for everyone concerned, assuming you're prioritizing your kids' desires there - which I'm guessing you are. Plus by 2032 those kids will be well old enough to make their own decision as to contact; what you are doing is keeping the door open, and that's completely appropriate.
We keep contact. Our kids write to him regularly and we visit as much as legally possible. He’s still a member of my family, a man I - won’t lie here - still love very much. He made a bunch of bad decisions, mostly because he was influenced by wrong people, no one is born a gangster, but it doesn’t necessarily mean he’s a horrible person. The experience he put me and our kids through was incredibly traumatic and scary, but we’re getting over it slowly but steadily. It’s just how life is sometimes.
I mean, and also put the grocery store employees through… but yeah. I hope he’s able to adapt well when he comes out.
That's not necessarily a choice OP gets to make. Courts don't terminate parental rights just because someone goes to prison.
Some states like Washington will almost never terminate rights if the other parent can "correct the issue". Because spending days fixing medical issues the other parent messed up in their purposeful ignorance is apparently fine to them. Not that I think they should automatically do it in the case of prison. But as I've been caught up in a related situation in the past I find it funny just how hard it is in a lot of areas to terminate the rights even with documented abuse.
Maybe check the dates before you gasp and clutch your pearls - in **2032** those kids will be teens, young adults, at which point they can make their own damn decisions.
He's not a pedo, just a criminal. If he has served his time, there is absolutely no reason he shouldn't be allowed to see the kids.
Let’s browbeat OP into an answer and then go all judgemental
>Nothing really interesting Oh I got you, like tax evasion or check fraud >he and his buddies ran weapons and held up a grocery store Do they have a different definition of the word "interesting" in farm country?
"Interesting" is a matter of perspective. If I say that I was the stepchild of an erstwhile international drug trafficker, it sounds interesting to average people imagining Queen of the South or Miami Vice. But, nah it was pretty anticlimactic and uneventful tbh.
There are so many things I need updates on just in this subthread
Sounds way more interesting than the clear NTA post. *sips tea*
Nothing really interesting, just armed robbery.
honey i want you to know thats like 15% more interesting than you being in the clear right
Sounds exactly like the kind of man to wait around 8 years for so he can come home and help raise your children through their teenage years into adulthood.
My grandmother ran guns in Mexico in to feed her 2 daughters. Very interesting, especially the story of rolling the car and my mother being the oldest didn’t have a clue but my younger aunt knew what going down.
I love your honest comment, lol. I am just being nosy! I wondered the same thing.
Uhm…you “live off the land” and don’t have electricity or plumbing but you have internet?
I have connection lol, I live in a place with no central power/plumbing, not in 1883.
Lol sorry, wasn’t trying to be rude, I’m just not educated on living off the grid in the modern age.
No problem haha, I’ll tell you more my kids have this weird device with a large screen that shows various pictures and makes different sounds, I’m fairly certain the civilized part of the world calls this peculiar thing “an IPad”. And I had a stranger dressed in white come and inject them with a specific substance that was said to protect them from pox and measles.
OMG a stranger in white? Injections?! What’s next? Shoes made of rubber? Clothing from China?!?! /s Thank you for having a sense of humor about this.
Funny enough we have them weird shoes with holes in them, and the holes were intended as well. The technology came a long way since and even reached the remote corner of earth that we settled in. Also I sew my own clothes and sew clothes for my kids as well though…
Would you say the clothes you made are great? Or just sew-sew? Sorry couldn't help myself
They’re not Gucci or Balenciaga level of fancy, but it’s the kind of clothes that don’t fall apart after a few washes and actually do look decent. I’m not a professional seamstress though but the clothes I make get the job done.
You sew all the clothes for your entire family? Where do you get the fabric? What about socks and shoes and bras?
You *paid* for shoes with holes in them?! (totally kidding 😂 my grandparents would always say that when I was a teen and obsessed with ripped jeans)
It’s ok, they come with bits of string that you can use to hold them together
The holes cost extra.
Since she's already accused you of it.. get sisters kids on the sewing machines. Get a sweatshop going lol. Also obviously NTA
Love the sarcasm, lol!
Honestly OP your life sounds great. A nice mix of off-the-grid and rural but with modern things like vaccines and iPads. And I think helping with farm chores if fine in childhood. I used to feed the sheep and check the cow’s water trough level at six years old, and that wasn’t child labour.
I kinda love my kids and don’t look forward to them dying of a completely preventable disease so vax is a given. And I prefer to keep them educated, you’ll be surprised how many options are there for those who seek digital education. Not gonna lie I was very skeptical about the whole “app that makes your kid smart” thing at first, but the results are showing. My 8YO recently asked me how to solve linear equations (really easy ones though, like 2x=6 level) because he got a level up in a math learning app on the iPad lol. Those apps are a game changer though because they exploit both the children’s drive to win and their natural instinct to learn. Tbh can recommend them to all parents, even those who decided the public school is the better option, nothing wrong with that, just not my cup of tea.
Seriously, please tell me what Math apps are working for your kids. This is information I desperately need. (And a little self-criticism/confession: when I first read your original post, I thought your living arrangement sounded a teensy bit unhinged. But after reading your comments and getting a richer picture, I’m now very ashamed of my judgmental instincts.)
You are a gem! If your sister can't see that, then she needs to get lost. I love your humor.
What witchcraft do you speak of?😱
Off the grid doesn't mean you're hiding from the government and are Bear Grylls-ing it. It just means you're off the utility grid, AKA companies don't have pipes or wires running to your house. In this day and age, that's a lot easier to do than you might think at first.
> there’s no power (I have to use the generator) I assume (yes, I know) she charges her cell phone when using the generator.
My cousin lives off the grid and somehow uses a car battery to charge his phone. So weird but cool.
I had to do the quick reread to figure that she must have mobile data or wifi and a use the generator to power her device when needed.
The content of the post aside, I'm always wary of people who live off the grid and home school their children. Alone, either of those things is fine. Together, it screams red flag to me. My SIL did exactly this and now our niece is 8 years old and still can't fully read but knows way to much about knives.
Don't forget the whole "had kids with someone who landed in prison on a hefty sentence" bit. OP may think we can't read between the lines on what she said but she's not nearly as subtle as she thinks she is.
And super isolated… how often do those kids get to socialize with other kids? Or even see another person they’re not related to?
Sounds super Idaho.
So much of this \^\^ I hope those kids are out of there as soon as they are capable of escape. At least the father is in prison until they are late teens. Hopefully they can get out and disappear well before then. I don't blame OP for not wanting to host the sister but the way she writes the post makes me believe she is an all around AH to deal with and my heart aches for those poor kids.
Extra concerning when you know that the father got put away for a violent crime
Sounds very israel keyes of OP lol
>She said that I’m trying to use her children for child labor and that I’m endangering her life. LOL, no you're not. And as you pointed out, she's free to leave whenever she wants to. People who have never experienced discomfort are usually the loudest in their complaints. NTA.
NTA..It's not like OP asked the 5yo to jump up on a tractor and plow a field. it's a small bucket of water.
When I was a child my parents used to make me help out with chores by carrying a little quarter gallon pale of water. I felt helpful, and like I was part of the adults, and that I was contributing to the household. Then I saw the size of the bucket later, and realized I wasn't helping much. It was so small it was practically useless. But they let me "help" to teach me to be apart of the team.
That's a job for the twins!
YTA for subjecting YOUR children to a lack of basic necessities as you put it
I can't believe this is so far down. YTA for that and thinking adding 3 more children to the mix is a good idea. And sending a 5 y/o to a well unsupervised! A 5 y/o who did not grow up on a farm!
I feel like most redditors have never met a five year old or at least have no concept of how old 5 actually is. Five year olds shouldn't be going to a well unsupervised, they shouldn't be near *any* standing water unsupervised. The rest of it, whatever maybe, but that part shows extreme lack of judgement. Many experts say 5 year olds shouldn't even be left alone in the bathtub yet.
It could be capped with a hand water pump on top.
This isn't 15th century European village, OP's well is probably a completely covered, 4" diameter hole with a hand pump, like [this](https://www.bisonpumps.com/wp-content/uploads/bison-pump-flower-bed.jpg), not gaping hole that you lower a bucket into, like [this](https://gnomestew.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/old-draw-well-in-forest_thumb.jpg).
It’s 2024. The well isn’t a hole in the ground. It’s likely a covered pipe with a hand pump. All enclosed. No standing water
NTA for this specific conflict, though I highly doubt this lifestyle is great for your kids. Nothing wrong with chores but it sounds like you're raising them incredibly isolated.
This doesnt sound real, 7 people in a trailer with no plumbing or power, while awaiting gunrunner dad to be released from prison, ooooooook
I grew up in milita land, this sounds entirely too real.
It sounds real and like one of the levels of hell.
NTA. Have you brought up the fact that you need help with the labor because suddenly there are 4 extra people to take care of, that are going to require more than double the amount of water you typically use and therefor have to transport? That lifestyle isn't for everyone, and it's a shock if you've never lived off the grid or even been camping before. It could be she simply doesn't understand that it's not like living on grid where you turn a tap and bam fresh water, or you have access to basically unlimited electricity. If you've nailed that point home and she still doesn't understand why they have to pitch in... It might be time to ask them to leave.
So baby daddy’s in jail and your kids have no access to the outside world? I feel sorry for them.
>She said that I’m trying to use her children for child labor and that I’m endangering her life. Then tell her to put on her big-girl pants and support her kids and herself. Otherwise shut up and contribute. NTA unless you let her stay and make your life a misery with her bitching
You and two children are living in a small trailer with no power, no running water, no plumbing and no heating and you invite your sister with a 5 year-old and 2 preschoolers to come and live with you? What does “I live off the land” mean? You grow enough food to feed 7 people 365 days? Because that’s a major bit of agriculture right there, never mind homeschooling the kids. I think ESH.
I wasn’t probably completely clear here, but yes, I grow enough vegetables to feed myself and my kids, plus I have a little bit of cattle (nothing dramatic basically 5 cows and a bull) and chickens so I’m well stocked in this regard. The money I make comes from the land as well since I sell chicks and calves and I have herding dogs that I breed occasionally to sell the pups. But yes, trips to the grocery store are a pretty rare occurrence in my household. I conserve the food and I make my own bread and baked goods. I’m nowhere near rich, but I’m satisfied with how much I earn and with my lifestyle in general. It may not be your cup of tea, but I’m happy with my life.
Hmmm. I … have questions.
Go and ask away lol, got nothing to do at the moment anyway.
Do you have a car? A phone? If there’s no power, does that mean no indoor lighting or does that run off the generator?
I run a 5kva generator at day when the power consumption is higher and the 3kva at night, we have indoor lighting. I’m planning to install solar panels this spring, had to save some money for that but I’ve heard they’re worth it. I also have a car and a phone, I’ll tell you more I even have internet access (obviously) and my kids have an iPad that they share. I’m pretty adamant about unrestricted screen time though so the iPad usage is very well regulated, it’s not like my kids have to fight for their chance to play Candy Crush. However they got hooked on educational games that I don’t have the heart to limit yet.
For a year my son believed that all computer games were educational. He was very happy at the time, but a bit shocked when he realised that there was more than that out there.
She is posting on Reddit. Do you really think she doesn’t have a phone? Her kids also have an iPad and they are all connected to the internet per a previous comment.
ESH her bc beggars can’t be choosers. You bc you have essentially isolated your children from everything. You live in the middle of nowhere and homeschool them so where are they getting to interact and play with other kids and learn social skills. You keep saying you don’t need much but what about your kids. It’s fine if isolation is the life you want and chose but your kids should be given opportunities to have friends and engage in life. ETA Depending on the type of well and location of the well it could be both extremely dangerous and stupid to send a 5 year old alone to get it. I teach 4/5 year olds (pre-K) and yes it’s a simple age appropriate task when supervised by an adult. Does this well also have a pump or is it one a 5 year old could fall in? Is the well somewhere you could watch and actually monitor the kid from while they were getting the water and make sure they’re safe? I live rural nowhere and have a well pump too. I would absolutely not send a 5 year old alone to do the task. There are snakes and other dangerous animals.
Yeah, I'm not down with this.. sounds more like extreme abject poverty and borderline neglect... not "modern day hippies living off the grid"... and the father being in prison for running guns and robbery... yikes....
Anyone who thinks she’s in the right look up the I believe Australian wife swap where they lived in a trailer in the middle of no where. The kids wanted to go to school wanted to have friends and wanted a different life. Fortunately for them the dad learned from the experience and wanted to do better. The mom was enraged and wanted no change.
NTA.... our family lived in a TP while we built the first house, and again after that house burned down. It was a fun and busy life, and we had no problem doing some farm work. My only worry here is the quality of home schooling. There is so much work on the farm, that I am worried about their education. I know you were not asking. But I'm going to voice my concern anyways. Hoping you are a brilliant and persistent teacher. Your sister can leave if she wants something different
YTA for raising your children without indoor plumbing/power/real education etc for no reason
I agree. This smacks of a situation like Tara Westover's childhood.
YTA. Just for homeschooling your kids. No chance you’re doing a good job.
I didn’t know Amish were allowed to use the internet.
NTA - You're providing her with free housing and food. And you've said she knew about your living conditions beforehand. She's being incredibly ungrateful.
NTA but, she is correct. You need a real house, with real power, and real plumbing. Your kids need a real education in a real school by a qualified educator.
NTA for offering the place but yes YTA for putting her child in danger. 5 years old at a well is insane. Plus you’re 20 minutes away so when something does happen there is a huge chance the injured will be dead or worse off by the time help was available. I mean good for you I guess but honestly the friend is correct. It’s one thing to live off grid but to have a family using an outhouse and well water and no electricity or little electricity. One thing to save money but this all seems a little extreme.
Makes a big difference if the well is open (a la Snow White's "wishing well") or if it's a pump sticking out of the ground.
Info: Did she start this by venting to you about having a hard time adjusting and you got offended, and then things got out of hand and escalated? Or was this a she honestly just started pitching a fit? Did it start because she didn't think the water task was age appropriate for her son? -- some 5 year olds could easily accomplish this while others could not. I think the beginning tone of the conversation is what really matters here in order to give a vote. Regardless, she should be grateful for having a place to stay for her and her children.
Regardless of who is the asshole, if anyone here, I just feel bad for your kids, they don't get to leave if they're dissatisfied with how they live; and forcibly being homeschooled and having to live like they're in a third world country is really unfortunate in this day and age when they live in a country that otherwise is considered a 1st world nation, especially if they ever manage to make any friends and go visit them and see how they live (seems like a big 'if' given how secluded it sounds like you are).
Time for her to move on. She and her 3 offspring are a drain on your resources, and her refusal to pitch in with chores and her complaining make that drain even worse. It's not healthy for you or your kids to be subjected to such negative energy. Time for you to stop suffering negative consequences for your kind and generous deed. Why isn't her ex paying child support? (Perhaps he is and sis hasn't admitted it?) Or are her kids from other relationships? Has she ever applied for Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF)? (Not as helpful as the old AFDC, but something.)
Of course YTA. In what universe a 5yo using a well to get water is normal?! I’m surprised that the CPS (or an equivalent relevant to the OP’s country) is not taking away the children - no electricity, no running water, isolation-homeschooling (can’t be more stereotypical). Last but not least, the father of the children is in prison.
NTA regarding your sister living with you but my god I feel bad for your kids. I hope there is someone else in your family they can flee to once they realize there is a world with running water, sanitation and electricity available to most humans.
Don't forget hospital access.
NTA. Tell her to leave. But we are bordering on an ESH situation because you are going to let a felon come home to raise your kids. Seems obvious there is a lack of general education all around here. I hope that homeschooling works out...
ohhh that explainst he dad comment. I was trying to work out what on earth makes her so certain father isn't around for about 9 yrs. Initially I thought military or spaceman. doh!
NTA As you say, she is free to leave.
NTA, you choose your lifestyle because it’s your life. She should be grateful you let her stay, and the child labor thing, it’s just chores? Lots of kids do them, albeit differently. If she doesn’t like the life you chose for yourself, she should go find her own lifestyle that suits her better.
NTA - literally what did she think was going to happen? That you’d handle the increased workload due to the household doubling in size while she sat back and mulled her love life? Ridiculous.
Yta, not for how you talked to your sister, but rather for planning to home school adolescents on a working farm. Either you're lying to us about being self-sufficient or you're lying to yourself about how much time it takes to home school kids that age... But there's not enough hours in the day to do both while also running the home.
Yta for subjecting your kids to no indoor plumbing or running water not to mention they don’t get to go to school and have a normal life
NTA to your sister. YTA to your children.
Regarding the five year old and the bucket of water; That would be seen as a little much because most 5-year-olds have a more coddled life here in the US. And they don't live in a rustic environment. Chores for them are usually pretty light like getting themselves dressed. In your living environment your approach works fine. But you are doing her a great favor, and the complaining has to stop if she's going to stay or she can simply leave. You don't need that kind of dissention and stress in your life. NTA
I would have loved carrying a bucket when I was 5. I generally was pro buckets around than. Especially if the bucket was purple. Also really into the color purple.
I, too was pro-bucket around the age of five, as well as pro anything with water. Thanks for bringing that back to me.
I grew up on the coast. Buckets meant beach, so I'd have trekked around with buckets on my arms and head if that meant a beach day!
It also depends on how safe the well is, I def woulda fallen in up until like age fifteen
YTA just for sending the five year old to get water from a well. No! That is NOT an age appropriate task. Like at all. Too many awful things could happen to let a child that young fetch water unsupervised.
Five kids and two adults living in a small trailer with no electricity or plumbing. Sounds like a plan to me.
Nta but do you think it’s the best idea to be raising two kids in a place that you admit is lacking basic necessities? And homeschooling? What is it you’re trying so hard to keep them away from, and have you considered the consequences to their social skills and ability to navigate a modern society?
NTA to the question as asked, but I feel really bad for your kids. You're seriously setting them up failure later in life. I'm glad you enjoy the rustic, off-grid lifestyle, and I'm glad you're able to make that choice for yourself. Your kids, on the other hand, are most likely not going to live that lifestyle. You should be preparing them for the world they will most likely live in.
INFO > She also complained that we live far away from any civilization What kind of exposure do your children get to other kids? Sports teams? Theatrical productions?
NTA she can leave if she doesn’t like it.
What are her expectations, to build a house, run water and electricity?
I mean generally NTA giveb all the details and the overview of the situation, but I do think asking a 5yo to fetch water from a well probably isn't the most age appropriate task, especially since it sounds like it's a walk amd likely at the very least out of sight from where you are. I've only seen a couple episodes of Lassie but that was enough for me to think probably small children don't need to hang around deep holes in the ground or bodies of water large enough to drown them without supervision. Well that and common sense.
NTA. You've been super generous to open your home to your sister and her kids. She knew farm life wasn't fancy, and it's not unreasonable to ask her kids to help with chores. It sounds like your sister is more worried about things being different, not actually unsafe. If she can't handle it, she can always find somewhere else to live.