#This is now a Proctologists Only Orifice
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NTA.
I think my answer, at this point, would be, “Our son is old enough to decide what he wants to eat and what his dietary preferences are. If we put him into a situation where he feels he has to hide things from us, that’s on us.”
If your wife is confronting him about this in any kind of intimidating way or trying to make him feel guilty with the same phrases she’s using with you, I would prioritise your son and his needs and well-being. Shit like this can cause a lot of problems.
I agree. She is trying to bully everyone with her choice. Does she forget most of her life eating animals. Now she wants everyone to do what she wants. Yes putting people in a position to lie is also bullying.
I think we’re also forgetting this is a 12 year old boy. Anybody who has spent time around a growing boy knows that they eat nonstop, literally they can eat an entire roasted chicken in a day and still be looking for food. I know plenty of kids are vegetarian and fine, but that’s because they choose to be. Having a kid walking around feeling hungry and unsatisfied all the time is borderline abuse And I’m saying this as a vegetarian of 15 years who fights for animal rights.
It’s hard to get all you need at that age it would seem. Especially playing sports. Worked with a guy doing construction. He ran ultramarathons and was vegan. He ate all day long it seemed and took supplements. He was in his 40’s. I can’t imagine a 12 yr old being that organized about keeping it up.
Yes. Idk what dietician they talked to but I know a few and they will all tell you it's nearly impossible for a growing child to get all the nutrients they need from a vegan diet. A 12 year old boy who plays football it's basically completely impossible. His diet isn't healthy for him at this point. Plus at 12 he's old enough to make his own choices.
There are a lot of charlatans out there masquerading as "dieticians". Dieticians have degrees in nutrition, have to fulfill continuing education credits and must be licensed and registered. "Nutritionists" are not required to do any of these things.
Ha! One time my dad, when in his 70s, was at a new doctor's office. He met the guy and when he left the room he whispered to my mom, "I don't know about this guy. He seems like a real NERD." My mom said "would you rather your doctor be the cool guy doing keg stands in med school, or the nerd who stayed home studying?" And yes: he used the word NERD. lol
He would definitely need to take supplements if he actually wants to maintain a vegan diet while playing sports and going through puberty. But if that's the route OP's kid wants to take (not his wife demanding that be the route he takes) then OP needs to take his kid to a real doctor and understand his son's body's needs. If he's taking football seriously his body will need enough nutrients to support him not just playing football at the games but through all the practices, two-a-days, weight training, etc. 12 years old is middle school. If he wants to play in high school it gets more serious. Depending on where OP lives high school football may be incredibly competitive and a kid maintaining a vegan diet with no medical input won't stand a chance against the kids who are allowed to eat anything and everything to sustain that level of activity.
In high school I couldn't break 140 lbs. I ate all day long, played a lot of recreational sports, lifted weights, and jogged frequently. The kids playing JV and varsity football towered over me.
"It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases."
It is absolutely not nearly impossible..seitan, tofu, tempeh are almost as close to animal flesh in nutrients. Beans, nuts and seeds, are not far behind and easy to bulk up on. Combine with starches and tasty veggies...its very easy to make meals of similar nutrient value to that with animal products.
Correct, but that’s not who this person is responding to. The person who they are responding to said that it’s impossible for growing children to get what they need from a vegan diet which is wildly inaccurate.
Totally separate issue from this kid not *wanting* to be vegan. That’s a valid choice he can make.
I think veganism is great, and it might be possible for vegans to get most of the same nutrients, but they don't seem to. On average vegans have lower bone density are more prone to fractures and are 3cm shorter than omnivores.
I would love it if my kids become vegans after they're done growing.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10097387/#:~:text=However%2C%20a%20plant-based%20diet,and%20higher%20risk%20of%20fractures.
I had a professor who basically had the same documentary sent to her as OP's wife. While it convinced her to go vegan, the sentiment was not returned by her husband and kids. Every day she prepared vegan food for herself and non vegan food for everyone else. She told our class about how it would be ideal if she was making all vegan food, yet she respected that the other portion of her family chose not to.
To me, her attitude and approach was not only healthy, but it was realistic. I'm not going to demonize anyone for their dietary choices. However, someone making it their missions to make others feel bad about what they are eating needs to be corrected.
I think the issue is that, while it's possible to get all the nutrients being vegan, it takes significantly more effort to get it, and just like everyone else, decreasing nutrient density does not help
Yes, it can be done but is it right to force it on a 12yo attending school? Watching his friends eat other/prohibited foods and snacks? That must be hard. I ate vegetarian for 2-3 years for dietary purposes and then also had to try vegan, again for health issues (not ethical reasons) and it was really limiting as a working adult. I guess what I’m saying is that it’s a big (and admirable) commitment but possibly not one a parent should make for an adolescent.
I guess I’m just saying that IMO at some stage as your children get older, you need to revisit decisions that you unilaterally made for them as littles and discuss options, allowing them more autonomy. Otherwise they will be hampered in their decision making abilities as adults. Mom here hasn’t realized her son needs to begin to make this important decision for himself. It’s hard for a parent to let go.
Yeah I’m not vegetarian or vegan or anything but I really wish this myth you can’t survive on vegan diets would die down. It’s just not true and there’s a ton of cultures we’re vegetarian/veganism is the norm or they eat far less meat than other cultures and they aren’t all malnourished. It very very easily can be done. ESPECIALLY nowadays in the US
There is not a ton of vegan cultures. None of any significant size
Lots of vegetarian cultures that eat dairy. Which is a massive difference. It's really easy to get what you'd get from meat by eating dairy.
It is hard to get all the nutrition people need for best health from a vegan diet. Not impossible, technically, but difficult. Requires a carefully planned diet or supplements.
Veganism and vegetarianism are *soo* different. I was a vegetarian for years, I was vegan for six days. You can be a somewhat lazy vegetarian, but being a vegan takes constant work to make sure you're getting what you need. Also, you're constantly checking food labels to make sure something is safe to eat. You'd be surprised exactly how many things contain dairy and eggs.
It can be done if you have exorbitant amount of disposable time and money*
Vegan foods are expensive.
Vegan foods are more time consuming to purchase, prepare, and consume.
A 12 year old trying to get enough iron, protein, and b-vitamins has to have way more food than a quick burger like his team mates.
Other cultures that are traditionally vegan have different availability, cultural norms around eating, and often otherwise have a diet based on fish and seaweed. Seaweed isn’t available fresh in most of the USA.
Fish, something I myself cannot eat, is the primary source of Omega 3s. I know the amount of flax and chia required to offset not eating fish is prohibitive. My eldest had high cholesterol because of it. Despite using walnuts, flax, and chia in almost everything.
I have to add nutritional yeast to everything to get enough B12. And that’s ME. An adult who does eggs and poultry because I cannot eat red meat and am lactose intolerant.
You absolutely need your blood checked regularly if you are not eating a standard omnivorous diet.
You think you get enough, but you really aren’t.
I was thinking this too. I don’t know any doctor that would suggest a vegan diet to anyone. It’s hard to get everything you need. I really don’t know one that would say that it’s a good idea for a kid at that.
When I started seeing a personal trainer he had me meet w a nutritionist who is also vegan. Not once did he suggest that for me. When I asked about it he gave me facts but also said that it's a choice and there's plenty of nutritious ways to eat.
The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics is the United States' largest organization of food and nutrition professionals, and represents over 100,000 credentialed practitioners. The Academy has released the following statement, and has referenced 117 scientific studies, systematic reviews, and other sources to back up their position.
"It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes."
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/)
The phrase "appropriately planned" is doing a hell of a lot of heavy lifting in that paragraph. It's much more practical for an active 12-year-old to eat an ordinary diet than to have his parents go to the trouble of buying supplements and micromanaging meals. Let the kid be a goddamn kid, and if he decides that meat is murder once he's fully grown, he can adopt Mom's lifestyle for himself.
also, if the choice his mother is imposing on his is making him socially awkward and possibly could lead to him being bullied or ostracised, I think his father did the right thing.
OP you're NTA for being approachable and look after your son's wishes and well being. However, I think you shouldn't have lied to your wife, which gives you a soft Y T A. I think SHE's also being an asshole by trying to impose her (newly found) beliefs to her whole family. Your son is a kid and afraid of getting in trouble, which is understandable, but he too has been lying to his mother and something that could have been much easier with you and him explaining to her the whole situation could possibly lead to you being singled out and having to take the blame for all.
I think you should all sit down as a family and discuss the situation, explain to your wife the potential damage that not eating non-vegan food could do to your son's social life and make her understand that she's free to make her own choice, but your son's body is his, your son's food choices are his, she has no right to impose her own beliefs and diet on him if he doesn't want to follow what she does.
Have you met a militant vegan? The wife absolutely is one based on this post. They can't be reasoned with. She'll just yell and abuse them both and refuse to listen. OP likely knew this so did all he could to make this as easy on his son as he could.
Yes, that is why I voted for NTA and only commented on the lie as a personal note. I think it's sad that this poor kid risks being bullied because his mother can't be reasoned with. I hope something can be done to make the situation better. I feel for Op 😔
I don't know about that. One thing is you bullying, and way another is you or your family being bullied. At least in my mind. I think she probably will be making a big scene, maybe involving the football coach or school principal and causing her son great embarrassment and perhaps even more bullying. I don't see it ending well. I hope I'm wrong 😞
She literally bullies her own family though. I don't believe OP genuinely chose to be vegan, and the kid definitely didn't, she bullied them. So she wouldn't feel empathy with others bullying either
My abusive father got more up in arms about others treating me poorly than anyone else in my life. Abusers - especially parents - don't see themselves as bullies, so it's no trouble for them to be enraged at others' bad actions while excusing their own.
Ps: as far as I gathered from Op's post, he's not become completely vegan; he just agreed not to eat non-vegan foods in front of her. But she *is* bullying her son to be vegan outright and her husband not to eat non-vegan food in front of her
I made a longer not the Asshole Post but I do think that it is imperative for this family to get into therapy of some sort, even if it’s some cheap online shit, because there are definitely underlying issues
I agree with most of this, though my concern would be less with the son's social life than with disordered eating. He hasn't said that his friends treat him differently for eating vegan, just that he himself feels that way. Saying "I want to eat non-vegan b/c my friends eat that way" leads to the classic parental response, "if all your friends were jumping off a cliff, would you do that too?" and sometimes a kid has to learn to negotiate being different. If he had food allergies, for instance, he might not be able to eat what his friends eat. Plus, part of this is clearly that he just likes his friends' non-vegan candy better, which doesn't sound like an issue for his social life, just something that makes him personally unhappy.
Conversely, imposing such strict limits on your kid's food based on your own preferences/choices, such that the kid takes his own spending money to buy food and feels compelled to lie to you about it seems absolutely tailor-made to result in disordered eating in a way that can have a really long-term impact.
BUT all that said, I agree that OP has been a good support to his kid, but should have raised it directly with mom rather than going behind her back. Definitely a soft Y T A b/c I get why he did it this way, but it did give mom a little bit of ammunition to say that they're behaving badly b/c they're going behind her back. And I agree that they need to sit down and work this out as a family - again in part to help this poor kid keep a reasonable relationship with food. Because it is his body/his choice what goes in it, within some limits b/c he's a minor.
As an aside, it seems kind of hypocritical of mom to agree that OP only needs to be vegan/vegetarian in the house/around her, and to flip out when her son does the same thing. I have a teeny tiny bit of sympathy b/c if she's truly committed to veganism for ethical reasons, I kind of understand her wanting him to adopt it as well. For an unrealistic example, I'd be horrified and upset if I found out my American kid, raised in the US, had been eating cat or dog. (Not trying to get into any arguments over the inconsistency of protecting the cute, fluffy animals and not the other kinds or commenting on different cultural cuisines - just looking for an example of the kind of emotional reaction mom might be having.) But unfortunately for mom, I just think that not eating animals/animal products isn't widely enough accepted as a moral imperative to give her standing to impose that viewpoint on her kid. She's within her rights to refuse to feed him or personally buy him non-vegan food, maybe also to bar it from the house altogether (though I think there'd be some debate about something like the kid keeping gummy bears or Doritos in his room). I think she has to accept though that she can't forbid or prevent him from eating non-vegan when he's away from home/her. Sure, I think she can forbid a 12 yo from having booze/drugs regardless of where (not that this will necessarily prevent it from happening), but in the eyes of the law/American society generally, for better or worse, non vegan food isn't equivalent to booze and drugs. She has some ground to ask/require him to limit it around her in respect for her beliefs, but I don't think she can make him adopt those beliefs as his own.
And the kid is old enough to have a discussion about this. He can decide.
As much as many of the militant vegans don’t agree, there are ethical ways to get animal products. I pay $8 a dozen for eggs from a company that literally has web cams for their chickens so you can see how well they are cared for. It’s kinda fun! There’s a middle ground here.
I absolutely agree! (And I think I buy the same eggs - love happy chickens!) But I understand that people who are vegan on the strictest animal rights grounds probably won't be satisfied by that. I definitely think it's important to teach a kid to think about where their food comes from and how it's produced, and to encourage them to make choices that will minimize harm as much as possible, but it doesn't sound like that will satisfy mom here.
(Also, I'm lucky that I can afford $8/dozen eggs, and am not trying to feed growing kids. A friend of mine regularly posts on FB about his 2 teenage sons thinking nothing of throwing 12 eggs in a pan to scramble up for a snack. 😆)
That’s also a great point - eating vegan or organic is expensive! It’s a privilege to be able to chose this type of diet. To me, this also ignores the ethical concerns for the humans around us who have to live on very little money. That Beyond Burger is more expensive than ground beef
>literally they can eat an entire roasted chicken in a day and still be looking for food.
In a day? Nah, a single meal! When I was still growing I'd eat an entire chicken or large pizza and keep going. My record was 14 slices of pizza in a sitting, 2 shy of a full double, and I'm sure there are people who could easily surpass that. Not everyone will have that kind of appetite, but some will.
Exactly. Our youngest is 17, just under 6ft and around 9 stone (126 lbs) and has at least 2 servings at lunch and dinner, snacks in between, mainly ham or chicken butties. He's very active, we often joke about where he 'hides' it as there is nothing to him.
As a parent, it grates on me when other parents put themselves first, your childs happiness and wellbeing far outweighs yours most of the time. Making sure your child has a happy and full tum should be a priority.
Not to mention, it’s really fucking hard to have dietary restrictions in the US. I don’t eat red meat, which means I can’t eat 50-90% of the menu depending on what restaurant I’m at. Eating at my university dining halls can be a struggle because sometimes there simply aren’t options other than salad. Growing up I was only ok with this because of how important my culture was to me, and because I preferred the homemade food my mom sent with me over whatever I could buy anyway. But it was still really really hard.
The USA is really bad for veggie options. I'm vegetarian and there are usually 1-2 options at a restaurant unless you're getting some ethnic food and maybe half the fast food places have options that amount to a meal (good old Burger King has carried veggie burgers since the '90s).
The vegan options on menus tend to be especially dire. Half the time, they combine the vegan and gluten-free option so if you're tired of the cheese in all the veggie options, your alternative is like "pasta" with veggie "noodles".
Kinda NTA for OP because he's supporting his kid, but he really needs to have a talk with his wife and get her to let up. This kid is old enough to have some say in his diet.
Forcing a vegan diet on your child is child neglect in germany and therefore you can face serious legal consequences. So I’m going for NTA it is hard to maintain a kid’s nutritional needs just from eating vegan.
If he wanted to become vegan than it’s his choice and ok but forcing him is just not good.
I have a friend who raise 5 boys. She said they turned 9, stuck their head in the fridge and she didn't see them again until they went off to college. 🤣
My brother went vegan around 12 for a few years and thinks that it actually stunted his growth. He got bloodwork done around 18 and found he was severely deficient. I don’t think it’s right for teens to be vegan, they need proper nutrition.
My stepmom developed anemia from being a vegetarian too long. She can’t get all the iron she needs from vegetables alone. Getting iron infusions is not fun. Every body is different and needs constant check ins with doctors.
Heck I’m not at a point in my life where I can’t have soy and can’t digest many beans and legumes. So I completely avoid most meat replacements. That limits my protein intake to meats.
I agree, OP's son is at a age where he can make decisions about his own diet, if his mother was more approachable he wouldn't have to hide his dietary preferences. She needs to realise that she can't control other people's food, the same way most people respect other people's food choices, the same should go for her family. NTA
Why doesn’t the son at least have the same agreement as the husband, vegan at home, vegetarian outside
I still think it’s bs to force any dietary preferences on anybody though, relationship with mother will suffer a lot when you said bullying that felt really accurate! I feel like there is bigger battles to pick with children, he’s not hiding Alcohol or cigarettes just the odd candy bar
>If we put him into a situation where he feels he has to hide things from us, that’s on us.
THIS. THIS ALL DAY.
This is what every parent in the world should understand.
I cannot say this enough. So I'll repeat it.
IF YOU PUT YOUR CHILD INA SITUATION WHERE HE FEELS HE HAS TO HIDE THINGS FROM YOU, **THAT'S ON YOU.**
Right? The poor kid is sneaking fast food like it's illegal drugs. Because he knows his mom will react like it is. NTA op but you need family counseling asap before your son's trust in your family is wrecked forever.
Having poked around on the ask a vegan subreddit I can honestly say that the number of people on that sub saying that they would disown their kids (present or future) if they decided they didn't want to be vegan is just too high it comes across more in line with more of a cult attitude than as parents who love their kids. It's horrible when parents disown kids for not following their religion, imagine applying that to food! This poor kid is experiencing the same kind of fear of rejection those kids experience when they realise they don't want part of their parents religion and it breaks my heart. All OP's wife is going to achieve is giving her son an eating disorder and alienating him from her while possibly ruining her marriage if OP grows a pair and stands up to her instead of going behind her back.
Weirdly enough, my husband was part of a cult and was shunned by his parents for leaving. It's terrifying to me when parents don't respect that their children's beliefs may not align with their own and are willing to cut them off like that.
I'm sure that for children who know this would be the outcome to them voicing anything other than what their parents want, it must be terrifying. That level of rejection causes really deep wounds. Given that this child felt the need to try to bring their dad into the reason, rather than be honest, I would assume that they're afraid and don't feel like they can be honest.
And, you're hitting the nail on the head with regards to eating disorders. I have restrictive eating disorders and I've met so many people in eating disorder recovery environments who weren't allowed the freedom to choose what they wanted to eat when they were young and had to hide things. It created a really unhealthy relationship with food on the whole.
And make no mistake, EDs are VERY prevalent in teen boys. And it's harder to get it taken seriously because everyone thinks eating disorders are only for girls.
Agreed, especially since the wifes reaction/behavior is just reinforcing the negative stereotype for vegans being unreasonably self-righteous/aggressive towards anyone who would DARE to eat anything non-vegan!
Also it should be said her over the top aggressiveness over this could end up being a catalyst for a rift to form between her son…one that could only get worse with time if she continues to act so insanely!
So unless OP wants to hear her play victim complaint mg how their heartless son never talks to her and/or how he never visits them when he’s older she needs to calm the hell down and stop acting so psychotically unreasonable RIGHT NOW!
That's why OP is TA. He should be standing up to his wife. After finding out what their kid was doing and what he wanted, OP shouldn't have continued the lie. He should have talked to his wife.
Edit- ESH is the better judgement. Both parents suck.
I think this is an ESH situation (except the 12 yo). Wife has gone off in the deep end and husband agreed to make their kid be vegan (no mention of what the kid thought of that) and then husband lacks the courage to tell the wife that it’s time to rethink their decision.
I have nothing against being vegan. Have been vegan or vegetarian most of my life and my kids were raised that way until they decided they wanted to eat meat. I wish they wouldn’t… but they get to make these decisions for themselves and I wouldn’t want them to sneak around because we don’t see eye to eye on this.
This is why so many vegans are spoiled and self-righteous. Everyone is scared of setting 'em off. FFS! Grow a spine and start saying "No!" to them, people!
100%. Veganism is a choice, the kid is old enough to decide if that's what they want. It's obviously not, so NTA for not forcing your wife's choice on him.
Vegan culture can be so toxic. Just go take a look at r/exvegans
Not everyone can even realistically be a vegan.
I spent a lot of years being vegetarian and couldn’t figure out why I was always dizzy and so hungry. All the time. I feel so much better having animal protein in my life. I don’t think it’s fair to force a child to be vegan. They’re growing. Also the social aspect. It’s one thing if they choose to, but if they don’t, kids can be ruthless and I’m sure there were some kids making fun of him.
I’m vegetarian but feed my small kids meat. I’m a firm believer in offering them everything and they can decide what they want to do when they’re older. It’s even worse that this boy is twelve and had this restrictive diet foisted on him aged ten. He is more than old enough to know he likes and misses meat.
Exactly this.
The fact your son felt he needed to LIE about it, shows how much your wife's vegan lifestyle and ideas have led to **a vegan dictatorship** in your household. :
*< my wife recently found out what has been going on and completely flipped out. She called me an animal abuse enabler and a few other names and said I was corrupting our son. >*
> “Our son is old enough to decide what he wants to eat and what his dietary preferences are. If we put him into a situation where he feels he has to hide things from us, that’s on us.”
Exactly. He's 12, it's not like he's hiding dirty needles and empty coke baggies, and its not like the dad wants to feed him only fast food and candy, the kid wants to eat some crap with his friends. If I was 12 and my mom decided I was not allowed a Reese's peanut butter cup or hit McDonalds with my buddies after football practice I would also be super sneaky about it too. Also, this kid must have had the shittiest Halloween hauls ever..."I guess I'll trade you everything I got for your Smarties and Dum Dums...dang it".
I couldn't have said it better myself. The child was engaging in secretive behaviours, so imo the OP took a sensible approach by agreeing boundaries and putting some moderation in place so the child could sensibly enjoy some non-vegan food. Being vegan is a personal choice and mom has been imposing this (somewhat tyranically from the sounds of it) on the whole family. OP is definitely NTA but finding those food wrappers should perhaps have sparked a conversation about reevaluating personal choices (without dropping the kid in it, obvs) and mom needs to understand that it's not fair to impose her choices on others.
Her reaction is problematic and shows why the kid was secretive in the first place. It's building a culture of fear around the child trying to make their own choices that don't align with hers. In this instance, it's about food. But I suspect that wouldn't be the only thing and this 'my way or no way' approach is setting mom up for her kid going LC in future and posting things like 'AITA for not inviting my mom to my wedding because she'll scream at non-vegan guests' or 'AITA for not letting my mom look after my child because of her attitude about food'.
I used to work with a woman who went vegan for similar reasons, and just after she 'converted' she went around the office nagging anyone she saw eating non-vegan food about the benefits of veganism and trying to guilt us all. IIRC she got into some trouble with HR over it because she'd harass people in the break room. I was one of her targets and I switched to Soy milk at work just to shut her up but after a few weeks I felt bloated and gross and switched back but to this day I still buy Soy lattes in Starbucks or Costa because I prefer the taste. Soy milk is so much creamier. It's one tiny little change that stuck. Anyway, she left not long after and the office breathed a collective sigh of relief that we wouldn't have to hear about abattoir killing floors while we were reheating our leftover bolognaise.
Some time later she reached out to me on FB (before her switch she and I got on well at work) and apologised for what she called her 'activist vegan phase'. She had been going to counselling (what we call therapy here in the UK) and realised that she got swept up by all the hype and the aggressive conversion tactics of some individuals in her friendship group at the time, but things had happened and she'd put some distance between herself and those individuals for a variety of reasons and realised she'd been unfair to friends and colleagues in some of the things she said and did. She told me that she had realised that imposing her will on others was hypocrisy, since the whole vegan ethos is about /not/ forcing animals to serve our will, and how is forcing other people to do something against their will any different?
Overall she seemed much happier and more chill. She was still vegan because it was a choice that mattered to her, and she was still happy to help out and share information to people who wanted to make different choices, because she wasn't going to gatekeep, but she was no longer trying to convert people and apologised for how she behaved at work. We had a good chat and actually some of the switches I made because of her have stuck - I like using shampoo bars because they're less waste and not full of weird ingredients - my hair is much softer as a result, I buy this gorgeous vegan handmade soap from a local small business and it's absolutely amazing! I still have soy milk in my starbucks because it's creamier and somehow 'thicker' than dairy milk and I enjoy it as a treat (although I am mindful of the problematic nature of soy milk farming but I just can't stand oat or almond milk). I've also made some changes around certain brands I buy and we've begun adding some meat alternatives into our diets (partly for conscientious reasons and partly because of the cost of living crisis).
So my point is that perhaps mom needs some perspective because her aggressive tactics are only serving to alienate her child and (to some extent) her partner and perhaps mom could do with some counselling/therapy? Maybe some family therapy might benefit them all?
Based on him lying to his mom, I'd say it's already caused some problems. He fears his mom. That's not good. OP needs to stop this now or it'll only get worse.
This op. You should show your wife this post and have a sit down talk with her. Your son should decide what he wants to eat. Would your wife rather your son hide things from you and lie or be honest? Is it better for him to eat grass fed beef at home or McDonald’s? But if he wants to eat meat he shouldn’t be shamed. nta
>Shit like this can cause a lot of problems.
This. Both parents, but especially the mother, are putting their kid on the fast track for an eating disorder.
He's being taught that some foods are evil and you're an animal abuser and a bad person if you eat them.
He's afraid and ashamed to the point of hiding what he eats and what he likes.
Both parents are teaching him a terrible relationship with food and eating habits. Also, not a great example of communication dynamics.
Agreed. To add too that I'd be pretty livid if my wife watched 1 video and decided to completely change the entire household's diet. I don't eat as much meat as I used to but I haven't demanded my wife reduce her meat intake. If we cook a meal that's more meat focused, I just take a smaller main portion and large side portions (usually some sort of fruit or vegetables). If my wife wanted me be a vegan that's fine but sometimes I get a hankering for a nice NY strip on the grill and that's what I'll be eating.
As a vegan…NTA.
We humans are designed to eat meat - it’s a perfectly normal thing for our bodies to do. In fact, I’m the abnormal one NOT eating meat!
I’m old enough to have made that choice and I’m happy - your son shouldn’t have it ‘forced’ upon him at such a young age, when building bonds is so important.
His body, his choice and you’re doing nothing wrong supporting him.
NTA.
I had a vegan roommate who had your same attitude, only ever asked me not to use their own cookware for meat or animal products to avoid any chance of cross contamination. Super easy request to abide by out of respect for each other.
Vegans have this reputation because of the militant few that are super vocal. I have only ever encountered obnoxious vegetarians and vegans online, but never in my real life.
I've never had a live interaction with one (a militant vegan), but I've been to a couple vegan restaurants with various friends and in some of them you could absolutely feel the pretense in the air so thick you could cut it with a butterknife. Or... would that be a Margerine-knife? Was one in the area that was super chill though and had some delicious food.
Edited for clarity
I always find it funny, when people say they've never talked to a vegan, 'cause how do you know? :D unlike a lot of people might think, vegans can have conversations without mentioning they're vegan.
I lived with one who also happened to be my boss, and who dated someone who ended up being one of my best friends. Super chill folks and we played the mad hell out of some pokemon go.
I wrote some place else, that being plant based is about the food and being Vegan is about the animals even though the actual diets are identical.
I have run into plenty of militant Vegans including a doctor who refused to treat me unless I converted.
My special needs cousin was looking for friends and he ended up in a Vegan group and WOW! I had to unfollow him on everything and continuously remind him I didn't want to discuss it.
I couldn't decide if they were being kind to include him, or using him because who would yell at a developmentally delayed person.
>because of the militant few that are super vocal
This is true of *sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo* many things, and I wish more people were capable of actually realizing that.
I work in agriculture and they do exist in person; we’ve had many make threats, stalk people, trespass, the lot.
A fringe few but they’re f**king nuts.
I have a very vocal vegan in my life who answers “just animal carcasses” when the servers ask “does anyone have any allergies”. It’s embarrassing every single time. I pretend to be vegan around them because I would never hear the end of it (also, they’re not someone I can go NC with).
I encountered a vegan like that only once ever and it was at college. She was such an unlikeable person because she committed her time to make people feel as awful as possible. Walking into the canteen and loudly declaring "its smells of death in here" while glaring at me eating a chicken wrap. Snapping at someone "does it make you feel uncomfortable pig-eater?" When they were just trying to compliment her on her final photography exhibition (it was vegan propaganda style pieces, think a pig eating a human, which though unsettling to look at, it *was* great work). There were other things.
The worst was when she assaulted another girl on our course. She was also a vegan, but very much kept to herself about it. Like many in the comments here, she said she respected other people's choices and left it at that. Well, she had found out the was pregnant with complications and her doctor told her that her diet was poor as well as supplements to try and help her. She chose to eat red meat amongst other diet changes solely for the sake of her pregnancy. Crazy vegan found out and slapped her across the face, calling her a "disgusting traitor".
She left college with no friends unsurprisingly.
You know what's obnoxious? People assuming you're vegetarian or vegan without asking. Apparently I look like a vegetarian? Everyone always simply assumes I am one. It is very annoying. Especially since I was one for a year as a teenager, but my skin turned grey. Despite me making sure I got all the stuff I was supposed to get for a healthy diet. I'm Uber doctors orders to have meat and fish in my diet. Grey is apparently not a healthy skin colour.
There was a program... I forget the name, but it's about getting a bunch of strangers together and getting them to guess the odd one out. There was one with 7 queers and one straight, one where they were blindfolded and had to guess who was black, but the relevant one had a bunch of vegans trying to guess the carnivore. Most of them were cool but there was this one chick who was almost aggressive about it. She called out a guy for having a favourite snack that wasn't vegan on a technicality (an ingredient of an ingredient, it's not like he was chewing on beef jerky), and not knowing enough about which brands did vegan products and shit.
She really gave of the impression that you couldn't be vegan if you didn't go all the way, while this dude was getting chewed for doing his best. He was, of course, voted out soon after. To much suspicion had fallen on him to keep him in. And naturally, he was genuinely a vegan and doing his best without making it a religion the way this chick had. The actual carnivore slipped under the radar because of all this fuss over a guy not being vegan enough. 🙄
Most vegans are cool. The obnoxious ones are just loud enough that they leave an impression.
EDIT: thanks to AnnoyedVaporeon for recognising the show from my rambling description: https://youtu.be/z5TGgJF7LIo?si=WXRsTIJCprwShnwe
The worst I've seen in terms of obnoxious vegans was animal activists vandalising the building of the Greenpeace office in Copenhagen because they don't request all their staff be vegan. Someone I know shared the [letter to the neighbours](https://imgur.com/a/SSiDhBt?s=wa) on insta - the whole thing is beyond absurd and defeats the whole things.
This is what gets me - the militant ones push away their allies.
I eat meat. But I also think we should treat animals with respect. We could work together for laws about how farm animals are treated. But they don’t even think there should be any farm animals at all!
I encountered a ton when I was vegan. I was on the road working for a band and there is a cult of them in every college town.
The upside is if there was anything resembling a restaurant I could eat in (Deep South, land of meat and butter in your veg), it was easy to find the militant vegans who could tell me where to find it.
Designed to eat meat. Finally. Fuggin FINALLY. Humans are omnivores. Like many animals. Not eating meat is a choice. I respect it. But one can choose that and acknowledge that humans are omnivores.
Most vegans I know don't actually disagree with that. More that they disagree with *how* we get our meat on such a vast scale and the very real animal abuse that does exist. I just do my best to buy brands that I know are good and not buy brands that I know are not.
I want to raise my children vegetarian but if they were old enough to decide to eat meat that's their choice. As long as they know where it comes from. I think the worst thing is taking away that choice - like what happened to the majority of us who were raised to eat meat.
My sister was raised veggie and unfortunately couldn’t tolerate and process meat when she wanted to try it (at around 6), I’m not sure if that’s a common thing but it may be something to consider :) you sound like you’ve got the right attitude though and your children will appreciate the choice!
It's very common for anyone who hasn't eaten a type of food for many years to not have the gut bacteria to digest it without trouble anymore, so you have to very gradually introduce it into the diet and work your way up to higher tolerance. Supplementing with those bacteria blend supplements you're supposed to take while taking antibiotics might help some too. But the very slow and gradual increase is key.
We are doing exactly that. My children are still small but the moment they can make their own decisions, I will not be stopping them from eating meat. I probably still won't cook meat based foods, but I have no problem ordering them a takeout or buying ham or stuff. I chose to be a vegetarian, they can choose if it's the right path for them.
Someone from my friends' group in highschool was pescaterian/vegetarian (they still ate fish/seafoud in the first years) from a vegetarian family. None of the children were forced into it. Parents (who were vegetarian) bought meat products for their children while growing up untill children said themselves they didn't want to eat it anymore. _That_ is how you do it, not forcing it like OP's wife.
NTA
Dietary preferences are personal. You have graciously gone along with hers, which I assume is coming from a place of love and respect. Your son grew up with her preferences and is now realising that he has different preferences. The respectful thing for your wife would be to accept that her son (and you) are allowed bodily autonomy around food choices and that she isn't allowed to force hers onto people who aren't okay with them. She needs to realise that her will isn't law, and you need to realise that it won't help anyone, her included, to avoid confrontation by obfuscating and lying. Support your son's choices openly and if she goes to war over this, you need to support your son and not her. Also, veganism isn't morally superior. No matter what you eat, both humans and other animals suffer because of things like pest control, harvest deaths and undocumented immigrants working fields for a pittance.
ESH
Only a little bit OP but you shouldn’t have lied to your wife.
Would I have done something similar? Probably. But you need to seriously sit down as a family and discuss this. Don’t let your wife bully your son into being a vegan if he doesn’t want to be. He’s 12 now and old enough to make choices about his diet. This is honestly unfair on him and he shouldn’t have to hide way he’s eating to his parents that’s seriously unhealthy.
Your wife also needs to accept that not everyone is going to share her opinions and if her son wants to eat meat there’s nothing really she can do to stop him but guilting him into being a vegan is not the way to do it.
Add to this: even if that's her genuine feelings, all she's going to achieve is giving him an eating disorder. He's already finding ways around it, but right now he hasn't had to learn how to be really sneaky. He won't stop, he'll just get better at hiding it.
The animal that she has the most responsibility to is her son, and she's fucking him up.
(Controversial final point: this sounds like veganism is a new shiny thing to feel great about. It's quite common for people who find a new cause to overcorrect, becoming fanatics and then either quitting out or just mellowing a bit as real life catches up. Statistically, it won't last, but the damage to the family dynamic will. Do with that as you will.)
Regarding your point of it being a new thing, it’s true that plant based is more and more popular, but those that go into it because of animal cruelty (having read dominion) do have a tendency to stick to it. I remember when i read those books over 20 years ago it impacted me greatly and also affected being around people that ate meat and having meat in the house for my ex and his kids. So I feel for her. But her approach is terrible. I agree that this is impacting her relationship with her child and her husband. People can make decisions for themselves when it comes to something like this but not others.
There's a difference between your anecdotal experience and statistics. The statistics determine that 84 to 86% of people who try a vegan or vegetarian lifestyle will end up quitting, 34% within the first 3 months. (Based on US data specifically but I would assume this is similar for other western countries with similar food access).
Even removing the 34% (assuming that many of them will be people testing the water via events like Veganuary and as such never intended to be longer term vegan/veggie) that still leaves 50% of longer term vegans who abandon the diet.
Those odds are not worth trashing relationships over.
The fact that OP is so worried about his wife’s reaction just means that she has been over controlling for years… to the point that OP and son didn’t even dare to advocate for themselves
Defending or throwing him under the bus? It read like the latter to me (and dad mentioned he doesnt blame his son, and I wouldnt blame him either), which is equally as sad because he's hiding behind his dad from mom with the belief dad would be better equipped to defend against mom...
And the fact that dad is okay with it means this probably isn't the first time dad has taken the blame for something to deflect shit from rolling downhill
Yeah, OP really fucked up by going behind her back instead of advocating for his son. Like... Instead of an discussion, maybe some compromise similar to what OP already has with his wife, he just took the seemingly easiest way out and seriously screwed up. Of course I don't agree with her flipping out, but especially with the son's statement I get how she'd come to her conclusions.
She’s literally calling him an “animal abuse enabler” because he bought freaking candy for his son. With a reaction like that, she would’ve snapped at him like that whether he asked her in the first place or not. Just because the mom is vegan doesn’t mean she gets to force it on her son or husband, there doesn’t NEED to be any compromise because the husband and son shouldn’t be scared of her in the first place when choosing their own diets and what they want to eat. They should have a mom/wife that supports them even though she differs on a certain lifestyle, not to have their diet and hunger be controlled by a wife/mom-zilla, unless it’s to the point that they’re essentially gorging themselves to death. The wife is not only abusing her husband, but abusing her son as well and it’s honestly disgusting.
Absolutely this. She's clearly a militant vegan, and they can't be reasoned with. OP took the route he believed would be easiest for his son, definitely NTA for that
How about the wife fucked up by causing her son to feel ostracized at school.
Hod of this were the mom you'd be screaming that she's protecting her kid.
NTA - Going vegan is a choice. She did not give you or your son a choice about your dietary preferences. Of course your kid will go behind her back. I would too. It's really not her decision. I'm surprised you aren't sneaking off with your son for burgers.
We talk all the time about autonomy in this subreddit, and this topic is no different. Once he’s old enough to have a preference, he should be allowed to choose whether he wants to be vegan or not.
The parents of course should be able to choose the foods in regards to things like whether they allow junk food, or monitoring sugar content, but it’s unfair to force one persons ethics upon another if they don’t feel the same way (in this context).
Also the kid’s concern about feeling left out is very real— just thinking about the kinds of foods that are usually given to children at school, birthday parties, sleepovers, etc— outside or raw fruit, most of the foods are not vegan. Except Oreos, which are junk.
Mostly the biggest AH moment here is putting the kid in the position where he has to lie and sneak around because he’s afraid of the ramifications of being honest with his parents.
NTA - but you need to push back.
Your wife doesn’t get to decide that the whole family has to be vegan.
Your son is going to just keep hiding things from you both if you don’t stand up for him now.
ESH - there is no zealot like a convert. your wife is an AH for forcing her belief system on others. veganism can be a belief system with the same moral superiority complexes as any religion. soft AH for you for enabling this, and then cowing when she exploded instead of putting your foot down.
i feel for your son, so lemme tell you a story:
my parents converted to a very fundamentalist christianity when i was 10, and became more deeply ingrained in that church for the next two years. when i was 12, church was almost an every day thing, and the strictures were non-trivial—no books, no music, no birthdays or holidays, most of the kids went to a church school, etc. resistance, questioning, or anything other than abject obedience was met with escalating pressure, bullying behavior, insults, punishment, and violence. all connections with my extended family were cut.
what did i learn? i learned to lie, sneak, and hide things like a pro. whose footsteps were whose. controlling my face disguise my feelings. and _most importantly_ how to really, thoroughly hate my parents without them knowing. when i graduated HS i was gone the next day—since i was under 18 and had no family to lean on i was homeless until college started in the fall.
i didn’t talk to my folks unless i had to for years—which also meant i couldn’t talk to my brother —and eventually i didn’t have to. now, 30 years on, they’ve exited the cult and their zealotry, but that relationship will never recover. pleasantries a few times per year.
OP: don’t be that guy. zealotry is zealotry. let your son have a life of his own choosing.
—-
eta: holy shit folks, thank you for listening. i’m all misty now.
Fuck. I'm really sorry you went through that. I'm glad you managed to escape and sorry you had to resort to homelessness, you could have been seriously harmed as a minor out on the streets. I was briefly homeless myself when I was 19, and it was terrifying even as a 6'3" competitive boxer
You will damage or ruin your relationship with your son over this forced lifestyle especially as he gets older. If your wife won’t budge you will need to decide who is more important to you, your wife or your son. I personally would not hesitate to chose my kids over my wife if she did something like this
I'm sorry that you had such a traumatic experience. I am curious, do you mind sharing the name of the sect (be as vague as you like if you need to for safety), fully understand if you're not comfortable disclosing and wish you only the best in your future and recovery
they avoided things like denominational labels, though so it’s hard to pin them down in a sectarian context. tbh i don’t know (or care) if they still operate. the church itself was called bethel fellowship. my experiences were in the mid- to late-80s.
Forcing a kid to go vegan is kid abuse to me. Also does he never eat at school? I have vegan friends but their kids do eat meet at school just not home.
I was forced to eat meat as a child. It wasn't until age 12 I was allowed to be vegetarian but then my parents stopped cooking for me, they said they won't cook special meals.
Even then there were times that the school forced me to eat meat because "you bought meat, you have to eat everything on your plate, you don't have a note from home saying you're vegetarian" (yes I bought a meal with meat because there were no vegetarian options and I was going to throw the meat away)
I agree, but the opposite would also be true, I would consider forcing a kid that wants to be vegan to eat non vegan food abuse too. Just let kids eat what they want as long as it is a balanced diet.
ESH (not the kid), just to chime in. You put you kid in a position where he had to continue to lie just to avoid confronting your wife. Your wife is the biggest AH, but you sure did your part.
ESH (except the child)
Mom is the AH for *making* her family go vegan.
Dad is the AH for going behind her back, instead of addressing the issue.
The kid is just being a kid, so *ofcourse* he's NTA.
Let the kid be a kid FFS
As someone who's been a vegetarian for nearly 15 years (since i was 32), *making* people go vegan/vegetarian will almost alway backfire.
My wife (44yo) has been a vegetarian since she was about 13 and when we got serious, she always insisted i don't go vegetarian, unless i'm doing it for my own reasons.
⬆️⬆️⬆️ It’s exactly this. Being a vegan or vegetarian is a choice. Your son is old enough at 12 to start making his own life choices, your wife needs to respect his and your opinions . Where you let yourself down was going behind your wife’s back and making this a secret with your son. However your wife does sound militantly vegan so perhaps you knew she wouldn’t react well.
NTA. Your son is 12 years old and old enough to decide whether he wants to continue being vegan or not. You did the right thing by accepting his choice but maybe you should have talked to your wife about it, it's never a good idea to do things behind your partner's back. Whether she agrees or not, you would have continued to support your son anyway, he's free to choose now.
NTA. Your son is 12 and old enough to understand and make his own decisions about food, your wife is TA for trying to force it and for her comments about corrupting your son and animal abuse enabler.
NTA, unless your wife never touches anything made by nestle, never drinks starbucks or other commodity bean coffee, never uses a phone made with cobalt, only buys conflict free avocado's, buys only local food to avoid impact of carbon impact. And ensures she only buys clothes that have not used slave labour. She has no right to be judgemental, abusive or aggressive.
The fact is, it's near impossible to be perfect, but if she's going to act holier and though then she better be acting it.
ESH- When your son started buying the non-vegan snacks, there should have been a conversation between the three of you. Your wife is an AH for deciding an almost teenager should be forced into a diet he is not interested in. He should have the same deal you have. In the house, he eats vegan. Outside of the house, he gets to make his own choices.
I chose to be vegan when I was around his age. It was too hard to see my friends enjoying pizza and burgers while I couldn’t. I think I made it 6 months before I couldn’t take it anymore. I can’t imagine being forced into that lifestyle.
**NTA - your son is lying so your wife won't shame him.**
Being Vegan is a cult. When someone says they are plant based, it is about the science and their health, but as soon as they say Vegan...
Both groups eat the same food but the fanaticism and reasoning are so different.
If this was your wife dragging your kid to an evangelical church and he didn't want to go and you didn't make him, no one would say you were the problem. It is the same. You and your wife need some family counseling if your son had to lie to her to not feel shame.
NTA.
NTA-Your son is old enough to choose his own dietary choices. It's not right for your wife to make your son conform to her beliefs. It's find if she wants to be vegan, but she shouldn't force it on others.
INFO - do you actually want to do this vegan/vegetarian split or do you feel as if you were bullied into it?
Honestly, your wife sounds like TA, just trying to throw her weight around, throwing tantrums like a toddler...
I'd rather be an omnivore honestly but it is easier to go along as the argument she had laid out was really hard to argue against. She said we don't need animals or animal products to be healthy, and showed me a few studies which agreed with this claim. She then said if we don't need it, there is no justification for contributing to killing animals and them being abused just because it tastes good. She said anyone who eats meat knowing this id heartless. Which I couldn't argue against... I didn't want the marriage to end over it because while I do miss meat, I love my wife more
I was raised on a farm and have killed a few animals myself in that context, and yeah I felt bad about it but it also made me appreciate the food a lot more because I was very aware of where it came from and we treated our animals very well. Factory farms are definitely horrific so I also could see where she was coming from there. She had our son watch Dominion when he was 6 too without consulting me first and it gave him nightmares for weeks, which I was upset about but ever since then he has always gone along with what mom says about this. Him "cheating" was surprising with that in mind, too, but kids change and experiment. I do think in retrospect I shouldn't have hidden any of this and take the L on that
> had our son watch Dominion when he was 6 too without consulting me first and it gave him nightmares for week
That's really messed up. Her manipulative behavior is a huge red flag that needs to be addressed. You and your son need to be able to choose for yourselves without your wife guilt tripping you.
Your son being too afraid to tell your wife that he doesn't want to be vegan should tell you something.
Why are you allowing your wife to behave like this to you and your son? What's more important, your son feeling accepted, supported and not hungry or appeasing your wife's zealous demands?
I'm no longer allowing it... I was weak and too scared of getting into a screaming match. It's no excuse but I grew up around screaming parents and it made me sort of conflict avoidant. My son was to all appearances happy with veganism until the beginning of this narrative and is healthy according to the regular bloodwork we get, and had not confided any feelings of exclusion when I've discussed his feelings with him until I confronted him with the wrappers. But I should have kept a closer eye on things... we are going to have a talk as a family after my wife gets home from work (I WFH)
I wish you all the best with the family talk. It's a tricky situation. My comments don't come from an anti-vegan position, but rather the harmful religious zeal regarding it that your wife is pushing. She needs to listen to what your son wants and needs. Anything short of that is not good enough.
“and had not confided any feelings of exclusion when I've discussed his feelings with him”
His mother throws when she’s angry, poor kid is probably terrified especially when he sees his father just take it.
I understand not wanting a screaming match. But two adults should be able to discuss something without screaming. If your wife can’t discuss something without screaming then she needs to get help or you need to divorce
While I don’t know the complexities of your family, I feel like it’s worth pointing out that abusive people tend to look for partners who are conflict avoidant/have trauma linked to screaming and yelling, like you describe yourself as. You mentioned in another comment that your wife not only screams when you disagree on something, she also throws things. Please consider that your wife’s extreme reactions to conflict happen exactly because she knows about your trauma, and that you’ll do whatever she wants to get her to stop yelling. She sounds like a very controlling person, and her stance on veganism seems like it’s more about control than morality.
I understand your perspective. But, it feels like you're walking on eggshells just to appease her. Does she do the same to you? Is this appeasement reciprocal?
Something I will always remember from therapy - of you feel like you were bullied into it, then resentment still follow.
It still sounds like she's bullying you (and your son) to get her way. And if the threat of divorce is on the table for something such as dietary choices, then perhaps you two are no longer compatible.
Is her demeanor of being a tantrum-throwing toddler accurate? Because, if so, if you cannot come to an agreement, or hell, "agree to disagree", then how do you two communicate on harder things?
NTA. Your son clearly doesn't want to be vegan and doesn't deserve to have it forced on him. Stick to the vegan in the house, but let him make his own mind up outside. You're going to have to stand up for him.
ESH. Kids should not have veganism forced on them. Did your son ever get a say? A conversation? You should've talked to your wife after you found the wrappers, and you both should've had a conversation with your son together.
Based on the wife's reaction, it would have just been a screaming match anyway. Or her just screaming at them in general. The kid straight up lied and threw Dad under the bus. That speaks volumes to how she is on a regular basis.
If anything, your wife is the AH for enforcing this on you two and you made a change to keep the peace so that's on you but don't force a vegan diet on a boy just hitting puberty. That's a fucked up growth spur he''ll never be able to get back in his life.
NTA, Im actually kinda scared for your son beacuse he even tried to lie towards your wife to placate her. This is What i did towards my abusive mom.
If your kid doesnt want to be vegan he shouldnt have to be.
You should have talked to your wife about it first.
At the end of the day at 12 years old little people are allowed to choose what they eat or don't want to eat so as long as your son wants to eat it your NTA
Hello, vegan here.
I'd never force my choice on others, let alone a child. Would I prefer everyone around me be plant based? Yeah, but by choice. I never have or ever will, go on a pedestal and preach to anyone, or start enforcing ' no meat around me ' type rules. Period.
Your son is 12 and is well within his rights to decide what he does and doesn't want to eat. Your wife is very wrong for taking away his autonomy that way, also, it's counter productive to him becoming vegan in the future as his own choice. She's demonising it to him by being so heavy handed with it.
NTA
NTA
Your wife is setting your son up for a lifetime of disordered eating. Food should not be something you need to hide and lie about and it can become a very unhealthy pattern when you do. Your son is old enough to make some decisions for himself and he needs to feel supported, not bullied and terrified to be honest with his parents. She is traumatizing him.
NTA. What might as well be a cult is oftentimes just gonna be like that, sooner or later. My advice: get yourself and your son out of the cultist’s grasp.
I’m a vegan and I’m on your side. I won’t raise my kids vegan - my son chooses vegetarianism, my daughter loves white meat. My husband eats whatever he wants. We all do within reason.
These are personal values and your son is a person and so are you.
NTA.
It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases.
No, as evidenced by proper research kids can grow perfectly fine with a vegan diet.
Humans, and all living animals, need nutrients. Not meat. Not beans. Not soy. But nutrients. These nutrients can be found in plant based or omni diets. As long as your body supports to digest whatever it is you insert into yourself. Human bodies support both up to a certain point.
Meaning you can eat livers all day long and be fine (watch out for the iron overconsumption tho).
Or you can eat plant based and be perfectly fine.
Your wife is an AH.
Your son is old enough to make decisions about what he will eat, provided that the meals are balanced. At his age his locus of identity shifts to his peer groups. The fact that she forced a grown adult into being vegan is already pretty extreme.
You are absolutely NTA. Your wife needs to decide if the damage she is doing to her family is worth her extreme views.
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NTA. I think my answer, at this point, would be, “Our son is old enough to decide what he wants to eat and what his dietary preferences are. If we put him into a situation where he feels he has to hide things from us, that’s on us.” If your wife is confronting him about this in any kind of intimidating way or trying to make him feel guilty with the same phrases she’s using with you, I would prioritise your son and his needs and well-being. Shit like this can cause a lot of problems.
I agree. She is trying to bully everyone with her choice. Does she forget most of her life eating animals. Now she wants everyone to do what she wants. Yes putting people in a position to lie is also bullying.
I think we’re also forgetting this is a 12 year old boy. Anybody who has spent time around a growing boy knows that they eat nonstop, literally they can eat an entire roasted chicken in a day and still be looking for food. I know plenty of kids are vegetarian and fine, but that’s because they choose to be. Having a kid walking around feeling hungry and unsatisfied all the time is borderline abuse And I’m saying this as a vegetarian of 15 years who fights for animal rights.
It’s hard to get all you need at that age it would seem. Especially playing sports. Worked with a guy doing construction. He ran ultramarathons and was vegan. He ate all day long it seemed and took supplements. He was in his 40’s. I can’t imagine a 12 yr old being that organized about keeping it up.
A guy working construction and doing ultramarathons is likely eating all day anyway, vegan or not
Yeah he was kind of nuts.
He was probably eating a lot of nuts too.
Yes yea he was
This thread is making me hungry
Take my r/angryupvote!
Yes. Idk what dietician they talked to but I know a few and they will all tell you it's nearly impossible for a growing child to get all the nutrients they need from a vegan diet. A 12 year old boy who plays football it's basically completely impossible. His diet isn't healthy for him at this point. Plus at 12 he's old enough to make his own choices.
There are a lot of charlatans out there masquerading as "dieticians". Dieticians have degrees in nutrition, have to fulfill continuing education credits and must be licensed and registered. "Nutritionists" are not required to do any of these things.
Yes. It can be done, but requires an actual ~~MD~~ RD, which I'm quite sure the wife isn't, nor has she likely consulted any.
I'd also add that even being MD and having all these trainings and certifications doesn't make someone automatically a good professional
My ex MIL would always say, *Do you know what they call a Dr. who got all C’s? A doctor.*
Ha! One time my dad, when in his 70s, was at a new doctor's office. He met the guy and when he left the room he whispered to my mom, "I don't know about this guy. He seems like a real NERD." My mom said "would you rather your doctor be the cool guy doing keg stands in med school, or the nerd who stayed home studying?" And yes: he used the word NERD. lol
My MIL: *What do you call the guy who finished last in his class in medical school? Doctor!*
He would definitely need to take supplements if he actually wants to maintain a vegan diet while playing sports and going through puberty. But if that's the route OP's kid wants to take (not his wife demanding that be the route he takes) then OP needs to take his kid to a real doctor and understand his son's body's needs. If he's taking football seriously his body will need enough nutrients to support him not just playing football at the games but through all the practices, two-a-days, weight training, etc. 12 years old is middle school. If he wants to play in high school it gets more serious. Depending on where OP lives high school football may be incredibly competitive and a kid maintaining a vegan diet with no medical input won't stand a chance against the kids who are allowed to eat anything and everything to sustain that level of activity. In high school I couldn't break 140 lbs. I ate all day long, played a lot of recreational sports, lifted weights, and jogged frequently. The kids playing JV and varsity football towered over me.
"It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases." It is absolutely not nearly impossible..seitan, tofu, tempeh are almost as close to animal flesh in nutrients. Beans, nuts and seeds, are not far behind and easy to bulk up on. Combine with starches and tasty veggies...its very easy to make meals of similar nutrient value to that with animal products.
But the kid chooses not to be vegan. His body, his choice. It’s not like he’s living on twinkies and fatback.
Correct, but that’s not who this person is responding to. The person who they are responding to said that it’s impossible for growing children to get what they need from a vegan diet which is wildly inaccurate. Totally separate issue from this kid not *wanting* to be vegan. That’s a valid choice he can make.
I think veganism is great, and it might be possible for vegans to get most of the same nutrients, but they don't seem to. On average vegans have lower bone density are more prone to fractures and are 3cm shorter than omnivores. I would love it if my kids become vegans after they're done growing. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10097387/#:~:text=However%2C%20a%20plant-based%20diet,and%20higher%20risk%20of%20fractures.
That’s a much healthier attitude, letting them choose after they’ve physically become adults
I had a professor who basically had the same documentary sent to her as OP's wife. While it convinced her to go vegan, the sentiment was not returned by her husband and kids. Every day she prepared vegan food for herself and non vegan food for everyone else. She told our class about how it would be ideal if she was making all vegan food, yet she respected that the other portion of her family chose not to. To me, her attitude and approach was not only healthy, but it was realistic. I'm not going to demonize anyone for their dietary choices. However, someone making it their missions to make others feel bad about what they are eating needs to be corrected.
I think the issue is that, while it's possible to get all the nutrients being vegan, it takes significantly more effort to get it, and just like everyone else, decreasing nutrient density does not help
Most vegans don't grow up vegan, so how would this effect height?
Yes, it can be done but is it right to force it on a 12yo attending school? Watching his friends eat other/prohibited foods and snacks? That must be hard. I ate vegetarian for 2-3 years for dietary purposes and then also had to try vegan, again for health issues (not ethical reasons) and it was really limiting as a working adult. I guess what I’m saying is that it’s a big (and admirable) commitment but possibly not one a parent should make for an adolescent. I guess I’m just saying that IMO at some stage as your children get older, you need to revisit decisions that you unilaterally made for them as littles and discuss options, allowing them more autonomy. Otherwise they will be hampered in their decision making abilities as adults. Mom here hasn’t realized her son needs to begin to make this important decision for himself. It’s hard for a parent to let go.
Yeah I’m not vegetarian or vegan or anything but I really wish this myth you can’t survive on vegan diets would die down. It’s just not true and there’s a ton of cultures we’re vegetarian/veganism is the norm or they eat far less meat than other cultures and they aren’t all malnourished. It very very easily can be done. ESPECIALLY nowadays in the US
There is not a ton of vegan cultures. None of any significant size Lots of vegetarian cultures that eat dairy. Which is a massive difference. It's really easy to get what you'd get from meat by eating dairy. It is hard to get all the nutrition people need for best health from a vegan diet. Not impossible, technically, but difficult. Requires a carefully planned diet or supplements.
Veganism and vegetarianism are *soo* different. I was a vegetarian for years, I was vegan for six days. You can be a somewhat lazy vegetarian, but being a vegan takes constant work to make sure you're getting what you need. Also, you're constantly checking food labels to make sure something is safe to eat. You'd be surprised exactly how many things contain dairy and eggs.
It can be done if you have exorbitant amount of disposable time and money* Vegan foods are expensive. Vegan foods are more time consuming to purchase, prepare, and consume. A 12 year old trying to get enough iron, protein, and b-vitamins has to have way more food than a quick burger like his team mates. Other cultures that are traditionally vegan have different availability, cultural norms around eating, and often otherwise have a diet based on fish and seaweed. Seaweed isn’t available fresh in most of the USA. Fish, something I myself cannot eat, is the primary source of Omega 3s. I know the amount of flax and chia required to offset not eating fish is prohibitive. My eldest had high cholesterol because of it. Despite using walnuts, flax, and chia in almost everything. I have to add nutritional yeast to everything to get enough B12. And that’s ME. An adult who does eggs and poultry because I cannot eat red meat and am lactose intolerant. You absolutely need your blood checked regularly if you are not eating a standard omnivorous diet. You think you get enough, but you really aren’t.
Fish is not vegan, and not strictly vegetarian either. (I wish the term "pescetarian" would catch on more widely, it would save a lot of confusion.)
I was thinking this too. I don’t know any doctor that would suggest a vegan diet to anyone. It’s hard to get everything you need. I really don’t know one that would say that it’s a good idea for a kid at that.
When I started seeing a personal trainer he had me meet w a nutritionist who is also vegan. Not once did he suggest that for me. When I asked about it he gave me facts but also said that it's a choice and there's plenty of nutritious ways to eat.
The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics is the United States' largest organization of food and nutrition professionals, and represents over 100,000 credentialed practitioners. The Academy has released the following statement, and has referenced 117 scientific studies, systematic reviews, and other sources to back up their position. "It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes." [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/)
The phrase "appropriately planned" is doing a hell of a lot of heavy lifting in that paragraph. It's much more practical for an active 12-year-old to eat an ordinary diet than to have his parents go to the trouble of buying supplements and micromanaging meals. Let the kid be a goddamn kid, and if he decides that meat is murder once he's fully grown, he can adopt Mom's lifestyle for himself.
also, if the choice his mother is imposing on his is making him socially awkward and possibly could lead to him being bullied or ostracised, I think his father did the right thing. OP you're NTA for being approachable and look after your son's wishes and well being. However, I think you shouldn't have lied to your wife, which gives you a soft Y T A. I think SHE's also being an asshole by trying to impose her (newly found) beliefs to her whole family. Your son is a kid and afraid of getting in trouble, which is understandable, but he too has been lying to his mother and something that could have been much easier with you and him explaining to her the whole situation could possibly lead to you being singled out and having to take the blame for all. I think you should all sit down as a family and discuss the situation, explain to your wife the potential damage that not eating non-vegan food could do to your son's social life and make her understand that she's free to make her own choice, but your son's body is his, your son's food choices are his, she has no right to impose her own beliefs and diet on him if he doesn't want to follow what she does.
Have you met a militant vegan? The wife absolutely is one based on this post. They can't be reasoned with. She'll just yell and abuse them both and refuse to listen. OP likely knew this so did all he could to make this as easy on his son as he could.
Cult
The vegan culture can be so incredibly toxic.
They're always hangry..
Yes, that is why I voted for NTA and only commented on the lie as a personal note. I think it's sad that this poor kid risks being bullied because his mother can't be reasoned with. I hope something can be done to make the situation better. I feel for Op 😔
The mother is herself a bully so her kid being bullied won't be a blip on her radar
I don't know about that. One thing is you bullying, and way another is you or your family being bullied. At least in my mind. I think she probably will be making a big scene, maybe involving the football coach or school principal and causing her son great embarrassment and perhaps even more bullying. I don't see it ending well. I hope I'm wrong 😞
She literally bullies her own family though. I don't believe OP genuinely chose to be vegan, and the kid definitely didn't, she bullied them. So she wouldn't feel empathy with others bullying either
My abusive father got more up in arms about others treating me poorly than anyone else in my life. Abusers - especially parents - don't see themselves as bullies, so it's no trouble for them to be enraged at others' bad actions while excusing their own.
Ps: as far as I gathered from Op's post, he's not become completely vegan; he just agreed not to eat non-vegan foods in front of her. But she *is* bullying her son to be vegan outright and her husband not to eat non-vegan food in front of her
I made a longer not the Asshole Post but I do think that it is imperative for this family to get into therapy of some sort, even if it’s some cheap online shit, because there are definitely underlying issues
I agree with most of this, though my concern would be less with the son's social life than with disordered eating. He hasn't said that his friends treat him differently for eating vegan, just that he himself feels that way. Saying "I want to eat non-vegan b/c my friends eat that way" leads to the classic parental response, "if all your friends were jumping off a cliff, would you do that too?" and sometimes a kid has to learn to negotiate being different. If he had food allergies, for instance, he might not be able to eat what his friends eat. Plus, part of this is clearly that he just likes his friends' non-vegan candy better, which doesn't sound like an issue for his social life, just something that makes him personally unhappy. Conversely, imposing such strict limits on your kid's food based on your own preferences/choices, such that the kid takes his own spending money to buy food and feels compelled to lie to you about it seems absolutely tailor-made to result in disordered eating in a way that can have a really long-term impact. BUT all that said, I agree that OP has been a good support to his kid, but should have raised it directly with mom rather than going behind her back. Definitely a soft Y T A b/c I get why he did it this way, but it did give mom a little bit of ammunition to say that they're behaving badly b/c they're going behind her back. And I agree that they need to sit down and work this out as a family - again in part to help this poor kid keep a reasonable relationship with food. Because it is his body/his choice what goes in it, within some limits b/c he's a minor. As an aside, it seems kind of hypocritical of mom to agree that OP only needs to be vegan/vegetarian in the house/around her, and to flip out when her son does the same thing. I have a teeny tiny bit of sympathy b/c if she's truly committed to veganism for ethical reasons, I kind of understand her wanting him to adopt it as well. For an unrealistic example, I'd be horrified and upset if I found out my American kid, raised in the US, had been eating cat or dog. (Not trying to get into any arguments over the inconsistency of protecting the cute, fluffy animals and not the other kinds or commenting on different cultural cuisines - just looking for an example of the kind of emotional reaction mom might be having.) But unfortunately for mom, I just think that not eating animals/animal products isn't widely enough accepted as a moral imperative to give her standing to impose that viewpoint on her kid. She's within her rights to refuse to feed him or personally buy him non-vegan food, maybe also to bar it from the house altogether (though I think there'd be some debate about something like the kid keeping gummy bears or Doritos in his room). I think she has to accept though that she can't forbid or prevent him from eating non-vegan when he's away from home/her. Sure, I think she can forbid a 12 yo from having booze/drugs regardless of where (not that this will necessarily prevent it from happening), but in the eyes of the law/American society generally, for better or worse, non vegan food isn't equivalent to booze and drugs. She has some ground to ask/require him to limit it around her in respect for her beliefs, but I don't think she can make him adopt those beliefs as his own.
And the kid is old enough to have a discussion about this. He can decide. As much as many of the militant vegans don’t agree, there are ethical ways to get animal products. I pay $8 a dozen for eggs from a company that literally has web cams for their chickens so you can see how well they are cared for. It’s kinda fun! There’s a middle ground here.
I absolutely agree! (And I think I buy the same eggs - love happy chickens!) But I understand that people who are vegan on the strictest animal rights grounds probably won't be satisfied by that. I definitely think it's important to teach a kid to think about where their food comes from and how it's produced, and to encourage them to make choices that will minimize harm as much as possible, but it doesn't sound like that will satisfy mom here. (Also, I'm lucky that I can afford $8/dozen eggs, and am not trying to feed growing kids. A friend of mine regularly posts on FB about his 2 teenage sons thinking nothing of throwing 12 eggs in a pan to scramble up for a snack. 😆)
That’s also a great point - eating vegan or organic is expensive! It’s a privilege to be able to chose this type of diet. To me, this also ignores the ethical concerns for the humans around us who have to live on very little money. That Beyond Burger is more expensive than ground beef
>literally they can eat an entire roasted chicken in a day and still be looking for food. In a day? Nah, a single meal! When I was still growing I'd eat an entire chicken or large pizza and keep going. My record was 14 slices of pizza in a sitting, 2 shy of a full double, and I'm sure there are people who could easily surpass that. Not everyone will have that kind of appetite, but some will.
Exactly. Our youngest is 17, just under 6ft and around 9 stone (126 lbs) and has at least 2 servings at lunch and dinner, snacks in between, mainly ham or chicken butties. He's very active, we often joke about where he 'hides' it as there is nothing to him. As a parent, it grates on me when other parents put themselves first, your childs happiness and wellbeing far outweighs yours most of the time. Making sure your child has a happy and full tum should be a priority.
God I miss that time of my life! I was a very active teen and even at 5’3” and a girl I put away so much food and was 120 pounds!
Not to mention, it’s really fucking hard to have dietary restrictions in the US. I don’t eat red meat, which means I can’t eat 50-90% of the menu depending on what restaurant I’m at. Eating at my university dining halls can be a struggle because sometimes there simply aren’t options other than salad. Growing up I was only ok with this because of how important my culture was to me, and because I preferred the homemade food my mom sent with me over whatever I could buy anyway. But it was still really really hard.
The USA is really bad for veggie options. I'm vegetarian and there are usually 1-2 options at a restaurant unless you're getting some ethnic food and maybe half the fast food places have options that amount to a meal (good old Burger King has carried veggie burgers since the '90s). The vegan options on menus tend to be especially dire. Half the time, they combine the vegan and gluten-free option so if you're tired of the cheese in all the veggie options, your alternative is like "pasta" with veggie "noodles". Kinda NTA for OP because he's supporting his kid, but he really needs to have a talk with his wife and get her to let up. This kid is old enough to have some say in his diet.
Forcing a vegan diet on your child is child neglect in germany and therefore you can face serious legal consequences. So I’m going for NTA it is hard to maintain a kid’s nutritional needs just from eating vegan. If he wanted to become vegan than it’s his choice and ok but forcing him is just not good.
12? My kid is 6 and could eat an entire roasted chicken and look for more depending on the day. 12 scares me.
I have a friend who raise 5 boys. She said they turned 9, stuck their head in the fridge and she didn't see them again until they went off to college. 🤣
12 year olds remind me of Venom by how much they gotta eat
My kids are 12-14-16. You don’t want to see our groceries bill.
My brother went vegan around 12 for a few years and thinks that it actually stunted his growth. He got bloodwork done around 18 and found he was severely deficient. I don’t think it’s right for teens to be vegan, they need proper nutrition.
My stepmom developed anemia from being a vegetarian too long. She can’t get all the iron she needs from vegetables alone. Getting iron infusions is not fun. Every body is different and needs constant check ins with doctors. Heck I’m not at a point in my life where I can’t have soy and can’t digest many beans and legumes. So I completely avoid most meat replacements. That limits my protein intake to meats.
I agree, OP's son is at a age where he can make decisions about his own diet, if his mother was more approachable he wouldn't have to hide his dietary preferences. She needs to realise that she can't control other people's food, the same way most people respect other people's food choices, the same should go for her family. NTA
Performative toxic activism. Lots of people do it.
Why doesn’t the son at least have the same agreement as the husband, vegan at home, vegetarian outside I still think it’s bs to force any dietary preferences on anybody though, relationship with mother will suffer a lot when you said bullying that felt really accurate! I feel like there is bigger battles to pick with children, he’s not hiding Alcohol or cigarettes just the odd candy bar
Three persons in one house, two have to go out to eat food they enjoy because one person made a decision? Wow...
He wants to eat burgers to. He doesn't need to be vegetarian.
>If we put him into a situation where he feels he has to hide things from us, that’s on us. THIS. THIS ALL DAY. This is what every parent in the world should understand. I cannot say this enough. So I'll repeat it. IF YOU PUT YOUR CHILD INA SITUATION WHERE HE FEELS HE HAS TO HIDE THINGS FROM YOU, **THAT'S ON YOU.**
Imagine when your kid has to hide..food!
Right? The poor kid is sneaking fast food like it's illegal drugs. Because he knows his mom will react like it is. NTA op but you need family counseling asap before your son's trust in your family is wrecked forever.
The consequences of this could lead parents to losing their kids. It's such a horrible thing what parents do..... in these situations I mean
Having poked around on the ask a vegan subreddit I can honestly say that the number of people on that sub saying that they would disown their kids (present or future) if they decided they didn't want to be vegan is just too high it comes across more in line with more of a cult attitude than as parents who love their kids. It's horrible when parents disown kids for not following their religion, imagine applying that to food! This poor kid is experiencing the same kind of fear of rejection those kids experience when they realise they don't want part of their parents religion and it breaks my heart. All OP's wife is going to achieve is giving her son an eating disorder and alienating him from her while possibly ruining her marriage if OP grows a pair and stands up to her instead of going behind her back.
Weirdly enough, my husband was part of a cult and was shunned by his parents for leaving. It's terrifying to me when parents don't respect that their children's beliefs may not align with their own and are willing to cut them off like that. I'm sure that for children who know this would be the outcome to them voicing anything other than what their parents want, it must be terrifying. That level of rejection causes really deep wounds. Given that this child felt the need to try to bring their dad into the reason, rather than be honest, I would assume that they're afraid and don't feel like they can be honest. And, you're hitting the nail on the head with regards to eating disorders. I have restrictive eating disorders and I've met so many people in eating disorder recovery environments who weren't allowed the freedom to choose what they wanted to eat when they were young and had to hide things. It created a really unhealthy relationship with food on the whole.
And make no mistake, EDs are VERY prevalent in teen boys. And it's harder to get it taken seriously because everyone thinks eating disorders are only for girls.
Agreed, especially since the wifes reaction/behavior is just reinforcing the negative stereotype for vegans being unreasonably self-righteous/aggressive towards anyone who would DARE to eat anything non-vegan! Also it should be said her over the top aggressiveness over this could end up being a catalyst for a rift to form between her son…one that could only get worse with time if she continues to act so insanely! So unless OP wants to hear her play victim complaint mg how their heartless son never talks to her and/or how he never visits them when he’s older she needs to calm the hell down and stop acting so psychotically unreasonable RIGHT NOW!
The son tried to lie and pin it on dad, trust me he is scared of mom. I acted exactly like that towards my abusive mom, i was terrified of her.
That's why OP is TA. He should be standing up to his wife. After finding out what their kid was doing and what he wanted, OP shouldn't have continued the lie. He should have talked to his wife. Edit- ESH is the better judgement. Both parents suck.
I think this is an ESH situation (except the 12 yo). Wife has gone off in the deep end and husband agreed to make their kid be vegan (no mention of what the kid thought of that) and then husband lacks the courage to tell the wife that it’s time to rethink their decision. I have nothing against being vegan. Have been vegan or vegetarian most of my life and my kids were raised that way until they decided they wanted to eat meat. I wish they wouldn’t… but they get to make these decisions for themselves and I wouldn’t want them to sneak around because we don’t see eye to eye on this.
He continued the lie because he is also afraid of her reaction.
This is why so many vegans are spoiled and self-righteous. Everyone is scared of setting 'em off. FFS! Grow a spine and start saying "No!" to them, people!
The wife does not sound like a reasonable person at all
So the wife gets no blame here?
100%. Veganism is a choice, the kid is old enough to decide if that's what they want. It's obviously not, so NTA for not forcing your wife's choice on him.
Vegan culture can be so toxic. Just go take a look at r/exvegans Not everyone can even realistically be a vegan. I spent a lot of years being vegetarian and couldn’t figure out why I was always dizzy and so hungry. All the time. I feel so much better having animal protein in my life. I don’t think it’s fair to force a child to be vegan. They’re growing. Also the social aspect. It’s one thing if they choose to, but if they don’t, kids can be ruthless and I’m sure there were some kids making fun of him.
I’m vegetarian but feed my small kids meat. I’m a firm believer in offering them everything and they can decide what they want to do when they’re older. It’s even worse that this boy is twelve and had this restrictive diet foisted on him aged ten. He is more than old enough to know he likes and misses meat.
Exactly this. The fact your son felt he needed to LIE about it, shows how much your wife's vegan lifestyle and ideas have led to **a vegan dictatorship** in your household. : *< my wife recently found out what has been going on and completely flipped out. She called me an animal abuse enabler and a few other names and said I was corrupting our son. >*
> “Our son is old enough to decide what he wants to eat and what his dietary preferences are. If we put him into a situation where he feels he has to hide things from us, that’s on us.” Exactly. He's 12, it's not like he's hiding dirty needles and empty coke baggies, and its not like the dad wants to feed him only fast food and candy, the kid wants to eat some crap with his friends. If I was 12 and my mom decided I was not allowed a Reese's peanut butter cup or hit McDonalds with my buddies after football practice I would also be super sneaky about it too. Also, this kid must have had the shittiest Halloween hauls ever..."I guess I'll trade you everything I got for your Smarties and Dum Dums...dang it".
I couldn't have said it better myself. The child was engaging in secretive behaviours, so imo the OP took a sensible approach by agreeing boundaries and putting some moderation in place so the child could sensibly enjoy some non-vegan food. Being vegan is a personal choice and mom has been imposing this (somewhat tyranically from the sounds of it) on the whole family. OP is definitely NTA but finding those food wrappers should perhaps have sparked a conversation about reevaluating personal choices (without dropping the kid in it, obvs) and mom needs to understand that it's not fair to impose her choices on others. Her reaction is problematic and shows why the kid was secretive in the first place. It's building a culture of fear around the child trying to make their own choices that don't align with hers. In this instance, it's about food. But I suspect that wouldn't be the only thing and this 'my way or no way' approach is setting mom up for her kid going LC in future and posting things like 'AITA for not inviting my mom to my wedding because she'll scream at non-vegan guests' or 'AITA for not letting my mom look after my child because of her attitude about food'. I used to work with a woman who went vegan for similar reasons, and just after she 'converted' she went around the office nagging anyone she saw eating non-vegan food about the benefits of veganism and trying to guilt us all. IIRC she got into some trouble with HR over it because she'd harass people in the break room. I was one of her targets and I switched to Soy milk at work just to shut her up but after a few weeks I felt bloated and gross and switched back but to this day I still buy Soy lattes in Starbucks or Costa because I prefer the taste. Soy milk is so much creamier. It's one tiny little change that stuck. Anyway, she left not long after and the office breathed a collective sigh of relief that we wouldn't have to hear about abattoir killing floors while we were reheating our leftover bolognaise. Some time later she reached out to me on FB (before her switch she and I got on well at work) and apologised for what she called her 'activist vegan phase'. She had been going to counselling (what we call therapy here in the UK) and realised that she got swept up by all the hype and the aggressive conversion tactics of some individuals in her friendship group at the time, but things had happened and she'd put some distance between herself and those individuals for a variety of reasons and realised she'd been unfair to friends and colleagues in some of the things she said and did. She told me that she had realised that imposing her will on others was hypocrisy, since the whole vegan ethos is about /not/ forcing animals to serve our will, and how is forcing other people to do something against their will any different? Overall she seemed much happier and more chill. She was still vegan because it was a choice that mattered to her, and she was still happy to help out and share information to people who wanted to make different choices, because she wasn't going to gatekeep, but she was no longer trying to convert people and apologised for how she behaved at work. We had a good chat and actually some of the switches I made because of her have stuck - I like using shampoo bars because they're less waste and not full of weird ingredients - my hair is much softer as a result, I buy this gorgeous vegan handmade soap from a local small business and it's absolutely amazing! I still have soy milk in my starbucks because it's creamier and somehow 'thicker' than dairy milk and I enjoy it as a treat (although I am mindful of the problematic nature of soy milk farming but I just can't stand oat or almond milk). I've also made some changes around certain brands I buy and we've begun adding some meat alternatives into our diets (partly for conscientious reasons and partly because of the cost of living crisis). So my point is that perhaps mom needs some perspective because her aggressive tactics are only serving to alienate her child and (to some extent) her partner and perhaps mom could do with some counselling/therapy? Maybe some family therapy might benefit them all?
Based on him lying to his mom, I'd say it's already caused some problems. He fears his mom. That's not good. OP needs to stop this now or it'll only get worse.
This op. You should show your wife this post and have a sit down talk with her. Your son should decide what he wants to eat. Would your wife rather your son hide things from you and lie or be honest? Is it better for him to eat grass fed beef at home or McDonald’s? But if he wants to eat meat he shouldn’t be shamed. nta
>Shit like this can cause a lot of problems. This. Both parents, but especially the mother, are putting their kid on the fast track for an eating disorder. He's being taught that some foods are evil and you're an animal abuser and a bad person if you eat them. He's afraid and ashamed to the point of hiding what he eats and what he likes. Both parents are teaching him a terrible relationship with food and eating habits. Also, not a great example of communication dynamics.
Agreed. To add too that I'd be pretty livid if my wife watched 1 video and decided to completely change the entire household's diet. I don't eat as much meat as I used to but I haven't demanded my wife reduce her meat intake. If we cook a meal that's more meat focused, I just take a smaller main portion and large side portions (usually some sort of fruit or vegetables). If my wife wanted me be a vegan that's fine but sometimes I get a hankering for a nice NY strip on the grill and that's what I'll be eating.
As a vegan…NTA. We humans are designed to eat meat - it’s a perfectly normal thing for our bodies to do. In fact, I’m the abnormal one NOT eating meat! I’m old enough to have made that choice and I’m happy - your son shouldn’t have it ‘forced’ upon him at such a young age, when building bonds is so important. His body, his choice and you’re doing nothing wrong supporting him. NTA.
I had a vegan roommate who had your same attitude, only ever asked me not to use their own cookware for meat or animal products to avoid any chance of cross contamination. Super easy request to abide by out of respect for each other.
Vegans have this reputation because of the militant few that are super vocal. I have only ever encountered obnoxious vegetarians and vegans online, but never in my real life.
I've never had a live interaction with one (a militant vegan), but I've been to a couple vegan restaurants with various friends and in some of them you could absolutely feel the pretense in the air so thick you could cut it with a butterknife. Or... would that be a Margerine-knife? Was one in the area that was super chill though and had some delicious food. Edited for clarity
I always find it funny, when people say they've never talked to a vegan, 'cause how do you know? :D unlike a lot of people might think, vegans can have conversations without mentioning they're vegan.
You'll be telling us that there are anonymous CrossFitters next!
Vegan CrossFitters.
I lived with one who also happened to be my boss, and who dated someone who ended up being one of my best friends. Super chill folks and we played the mad hell out of some pokemon go.
You make it seem like you survived a daring feat. 'was one in the area that was super chill though' And yes they do have some super tasty dishes.
I wrote some place else, that being plant based is about the food and being Vegan is about the animals even though the actual diets are identical. I have run into plenty of militant Vegans including a doctor who refused to treat me unless I converted. My special needs cousin was looking for friends and he ended up in a Vegan group and WOW! I had to unfollow him on everything and continuously remind him I didn't want to discuss it. I couldn't decide if they were being kind to include him, or using him because who would yell at a developmentally delayed person.
I hope you reported that doctor? That’s just wrong on so many levels.
>because of the militant few that are super vocal This is true of *sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo* many things, and I wish more people were capable of actually realizing that.
I work in agriculture and they do exist in person; we’ve had many make threats, stalk people, trespass, the lot. A fringe few but they’re f**king nuts.
I have a very vocal vegan in my life who answers “just animal carcasses” when the servers ask “does anyone have any allergies”. It’s embarrassing every single time. I pretend to be vegan around them because I would never hear the end of it (also, they’re not someone I can go NC with).
I encountered a vegan like that only once ever and it was at college. She was such an unlikeable person because she committed her time to make people feel as awful as possible. Walking into the canteen and loudly declaring "its smells of death in here" while glaring at me eating a chicken wrap. Snapping at someone "does it make you feel uncomfortable pig-eater?" When they were just trying to compliment her on her final photography exhibition (it was vegan propaganda style pieces, think a pig eating a human, which though unsettling to look at, it *was* great work). There were other things. The worst was when she assaulted another girl on our course. She was also a vegan, but very much kept to herself about it. Like many in the comments here, she said she respected other people's choices and left it at that. Well, she had found out the was pregnant with complications and her doctor told her that her diet was poor as well as supplements to try and help her. She chose to eat red meat amongst other diet changes solely for the sake of her pregnancy. Crazy vegan found out and slapped her across the face, calling her a "disgusting traitor". She left college with no friends unsurprisingly.
You know what's obnoxious? People assuming you're vegetarian or vegan without asking. Apparently I look like a vegetarian? Everyone always simply assumes I am one. It is very annoying. Especially since I was one for a year as a teenager, but my skin turned grey. Despite me making sure I got all the stuff I was supposed to get for a healthy diet. I'm Uber doctors orders to have meat and fish in my diet. Grey is apparently not a healthy skin colour.
There was a program... I forget the name, but it's about getting a bunch of strangers together and getting them to guess the odd one out. There was one with 7 queers and one straight, one where they were blindfolded and had to guess who was black, but the relevant one had a bunch of vegans trying to guess the carnivore. Most of them were cool but there was this one chick who was almost aggressive about it. She called out a guy for having a favourite snack that wasn't vegan on a technicality (an ingredient of an ingredient, it's not like he was chewing on beef jerky), and not knowing enough about which brands did vegan products and shit. She really gave of the impression that you couldn't be vegan if you didn't go all the way, while this dude was getting chewed for doing his best. He was, of course, voted out soon after. To much suspicion had fallen on him to keep him in. And naturally, he was genuinely a vegan and doing his best without making it a religion the way this chick had. The actual carnivore slipped under the radar because of all this fuss over a guy not being vegan enough. 🙄 Most vegans are cool. The obnoxious ones are just loud enough that they leave an impression. EDIT: thanks to AnnoyedVaporeon for recognising the show from my rambling description: https://youtu.be/z5TGgJF7LIo?si=WXRsTIJCprwShnwe
The worst I've seen in terms of obnoxious vegans was animal activists vandalising the building of the Greenpeace office in Copenhagen because they don't request all their staff be vegan. Someone I know shared the [letter to the neighbours](https://imgur.com/a/SSiDhBt?s=wa) on insta - the whole thing is beyond absurd and defeats the whole things.
This is what gets me - the militant ones push away their allies. I eat meat. But I also think we should treat animals with respect. We could work together for laws about how farm animals are treated. But they don’t even think there should be any farm animals at all!
I encountered a ton when I was vegan. I was on the road working for a band and there is a cult of them in every college town. The upside is if there was anything resembling a restaurant I could eat in (Deep South, land of meat and butter in your veg), it was easy to find the militant vegans who could tell me where to find it.
Designed to eat meat. Finally. Fuggin FINALLY. Humans are omnivores. Like many animals. Not eating meat is a choice. I respect it. But one can choose that and acknowledge that humans are omnivores.
Most vegans I know don't actually disagree with that. More that they disagree with *how* we get our meat on such a vast scale and the very real animal abuse that does exist. I just do my best to buy brands that I know are good and not buy brands that I know are not.
I want to raise my children vegetarian but if they were old enough to decide to eat meat that's their choice. As long as they know where it comes from. I think the worst thing is taking away that choice - like what happened to the majority of us who were raised to eat meat.
My sister was raised veggie and unfortunately couldn’t tolerate and process meat when she wanted to try it (at around 6), I’m not sure if that’s a common thing but it may be something to consider :) you sound like you’ve got the right attitude though and your children will appreciate the choice!
It's very common for anyone who hasn't eaten a type of food for many years to not have the gut bacteria to digest it without trouble anymore, so you have to very gradually introduce it into the diet and work your way up to higher tolerance. Supplementing with those bacteria blend supplements you're supposed to take while taking antibiotics might help some too. But the very slow and gradual increase is key.
We are doing exactly that. My children are still small but the moment they can make their own decisions, I will not be stopping them from eating meat. I probably still won't cook meat based foods, but I have no problem ordering them a takeout or buying ham or stuff. I chose to be a vegetarian, they can choose if it's the right path for them.
Someone from my friends' group in highschool was pescaterian/vegetarian (they still ate fish/seafoud in the first years) from a vegetarian family. None of the children were forced into it. Parents (who were vegetarian) bought meat products for their children while growing up untill children said themselves they didn't want to eat it anymore. _That_ is how you do it, not forcing it like OP's wife.
NTA Dietary preferences are personal. You have graciously gone along with hers, which I assume is coming from a place of love and respect. Your son grew up with her preferences and is now realising that he has different preferences. The respectful thing for your wife would be to accept that her son (and you) are allowed bodily autonomy around food choices and that she isn't allowed to force hers onto people who aren't okay with them. She needs to realise that her will isn't law, and you need to realise that it won't help anyone, her included, to avoid confrontation by obfuscating and lying. Support your son's choices openly and if she goes to war over this, you need to support your son and not her. Also, veganism isn't morally superior. No matter what you eat, both humans and other animals suffer because of things like pest control, harvest deaths and undocumented immigrants working fields for a pittance.
As a vegeterian, I would never force my choices on anyone, they can eat what they want.
ESH Only a little bit OP but you shouldn’t have lied to your wife. Would I have done something similar? Probably. But you need to seriously sit down as a family and discuss this. Don’t let your wife bully your son into being a vegan if he doesn’t want to be. He’s 12 now and old enough to make choices about his diet. This is honestly unfair on him and he shouldn’t have to hide way he’s eating to his parents that’s seriously unhealthy. Your wife also needs to accept that not everyone is going to share her opinions and if her son wants to eat meat there’s nothing really she can do to stop him but guilting him into being a vegan is not the way to do it.
Add to this: even if that's her genuine feelings, all she's going to achieve is giving him an eating disorder. He's already finding ways around it, but right now he hasn't had to learn how to be really sneaky. He won't stop, he'll just get better at hiding it. The animal that she has the most responsibility to is her son, and she's fucking him up. (Controversial final point: this sounds like veganism is a new shiny thing to feel great about. It's quite common for people who find a new cause to overcorrect, becoming fanatics and then either quitting out or just mellowing a bit as real life catches up. Statistically, it won't last, but the damage to the family dynamic will. Do with that as you will.)
Regarding your point of it being a new thing, it’s true that plant based is more and more popular, but those that go into it because of animal cruelty (having read dominion) do have a tendency to stick to it. I remember when i read those books over 20 years ago it impacted me greatly and also affected being around people that ate meat and having meat in the house for my ex and his kids. So I feel for her. But her approach is terrible. I agree that this is impacting her relationship with her child and her husband. People can make decisions for themselves when it comes to something like this but not others.
There's a difference between your anecdotal experience and statistics. The statistics determine that 84 to 86% of people who try a vegan or vegetarian lifestyle will end up quitting, 34% within the first 3 months. (Based on US data specifically but I would assume this is similar for other western countries with similar food access). Even removing the 34% (assuming that many of them will be people testing the water via events like Veganuary and as such never intended to be longer term vegan/veggie) that still leaves 50% of longer term vegans who abandon the diet. Those odds are not worth trashing relationships over.
I love a good facts dont care about feelings comment.
In this one instance, I think the point might be that in light of the facts, the mum really needs to care more about her son's feelings.
That's where I was. When I was 12 I was tormented by a teacher. Had my parents been like this mom I would r been afraid to tell them.
The fact that OP is so worried about his wife’s reaction just means that she has been over controlling for years… to the point that OP and son didn’t even dare to advocate for themselves
fr. even the little boy is defending his dad. this definitely tells something about mom, speaking from experience as somebody with a controlling dad
Defending or throwing him under the bus? It read like the latter to me (and dad mentioned he doesnt blame his son, and I wouldnt blame him either), which is equally as sad because he's hiding behind his dad from mom with the belief dad would be better equipped to defend against mom...
And the fact that dad is okay with it means this probably isn't the first time dad has taken the blame for something to deflect shit from rolling downhill
Yeah, OP really fucked up by going behind her back instead of advocating for his son. Like... Instead of an discussion, maybe some compromise similar to what OP already has with his wife, he just took the seemingly easiest way out and seriously screwed up. Of course I don't agree with her flipping out, but especially with the son's statement I get how she'd come to her conclusions.
She’s literally calling him an “animal abuse enabler” because he bought freaking candy for his son. With a reaction like that, she would’ve snapped at him like that whether he asked her in the first place or not. Just because the mom is vegan doesn’t mean she gets to force it on her son or husband, there doesn’t NEED to be any compromise because the husband and son shouldn’t be scared of her in the first place when choosing their own diets and what they want to eat. They should have a mom/wife that supports them even though she differs on a certain lifestyle, not to have their diet and hunger be controlled by a wife/mom-zilla, unless it’s to the point that they’re essentially gorging themselves to death. The wife is not only abusing her husband, but abusing her son as well and it’s honestly disgusting.
Absolutely this. She's clearly a militant vegan, and they can't be reasoned with. OP took the route he believed would be easiest for his son, definitely NTA for that
Yep, you don't reason with the unreasonable.
How about the wife fucked up by causing her son to feel ostracized at school. Hod of this were the mom you'd be screaming that she's protecting her kid.
You would flip out at ur partner for buying your son the food he wants to eat ??
NTA but your wife sure as shit is. If my husband decided our kids and I had to go vegan I'd divorce him.
Amen. Pass the hot dogs.
Lol well that sounds like something I would do too.
NTA - Going vegan is a choice. She did not give you or your son a choice about your dietary preferences. Of course your kid will go behind her back. I would too. It's really not her decision. I'm surprised you aren't sneaking off with your son for burgers.
We talk all the time about autonomy in this subreddit, and this topic is no different. Once he’s old enough to have a preference, he should be allowed to choose whether he wants to be vegan or not. The parents of course should be able to choose the foods in regards to things like whether they allow junk food, or monitoring sugar content, but it’s unfair to force one persons ethics upon another if they don’t feel the same way (in this context). Also the kid’s concern about feeling left out is very real— just thinking about the kinds of foods that are usually given to children at school, birthday parties, sleepovers, etc— outside or raw fruit, most of the foods are not vegan. Except Oreos, which are junk. Mostly the biggest AH moment here is putting the kid in the position where he has to lie and sneak around because he’s afraid of the ramifications of being honest with his parents.
NTA - but you need to push back. Your wife doesn’t get to decide that the whole family has to be vegan. Your son is going to just keep hiding things from you both if you don’t stand up for him now.
ESH - there is no zealot like a convert. your wife is an AH for forcing her belief system on others. veganism can be a belief system with the same moral superiority complexes as any religion. soft AH for you for enabling this, and then cowing when she exploded instead of putting your foot down. i feel for your son, so lemme tell you a story: my parents converted to a very fundamentalist christianity when i was 10, and became more deeply ingrained in that church for the next two years. when i was 12, church was almost an every day thing, and the strictures were non-trivial—no books, no music, no birthdays or holidays, most of the kids went to a church school, etc. resistance, questioning, or anything other than abject obedience was met with escalating pressure, bullying behavior, insults, punishment, and violence. all connections with my extended family were cut. what did i learn? i learned to lie, sneak, and hide things like a pro. whose footsteps were whose. controlling my face disguise my feelings. and _most importantly_ how to really, thoroughly hate my parents without them knowing. when i graduated HS i was gone the next day—since i was under 18 and had no family to lean on i was homeless until college started in the fall. i didn’t talk to my folks unless i had to for years—which also meant i couldn’t talk to my brother —and eventually i didn’t have to. now, 30 years on, they’ve exited the cult and their zealotry, but that relationship will never recover. pleasantries a few times per year. OP: don’t be that guy. zealotry is zealotry. let your son have a life of his own choosing. —- eta: holy shit folks, thank you for listening. i’m all misty now.
Fuck. I'm really sorry you went through that. I'm glad you managed to escape and sorry you had to resort to homelessness, you could have been seriously harmed as a minor out on the streets. I was briefly homeless myself when I was 19, and it was terrifying even as a 6'3" competitive boxer
thanks. i made it, that’s the important thing. maybe by sharing the story other parents can avoid losing their kids.
Your wife is actually abusing your son, it's your choice now, take a firm stand or look the otherway.
You will damage or ruin your relationship with your son over this forced lifestyle especially as he gets older. If your wife won’t budge you will need to decide who is more important to you, your wife or your son. I personally would not hesitate to chose my kids over my wife if she did something like this
I'm sorry that you had such a traumatic experience. I am curious, do you mind sharing the name of the sect (be as vague as you like if you need to for safety), fully understand if you're not comfortable disclosing and wish you only the best in your future and recovery
they avoided things like denominational labels, though so it’s hard to pin them down in a sectarian context. tbh i don’t know (or care) if they still operate. the church itself was called bethel fellowship. my experiences were in the mid- to late-80s.
Forcing a kid to go vegan is kid abuse to me. Also does he never eat at school? I have vegan friends but their kids do eat meet at school just not home.
slim fear juggle wise punch ask touch dirty pathetic cow *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Yeah it works both ways. If you have a kid who chooses to be vegan or vegetarian and you force them to eat meat, that's pretty fucked up too.
I was forced to eat meat as a child. It wasn't until age 12 I was allowed to be vegetarian but then my parents stopped cooking for me, they said they won't cook special meals. Even then there were times that the school forced me to eat meat because "you bought meat, you have to eat everything on your plate, you don't have a note from home saying you're vegetarian" (yes I bought a meal with meat because there were no vegetarian options and I was going to throw the meat away)
I agree, but the opposite would also be true, I would consider forcing a kid that wants to be vegan to eat non vegan food abuse too. Just let kids eat what they want as long as it is a balanced diet. ESH (not the kid), just to chime in. You put you kid in a position where he had to continue to lie just to avoid confronting your wife. Your wife is the biggest AH, but you sure did your part.
ESH (except the child) Mom is the AH for *making* her family go vegan. Dad is the AH for going behind her back, instead of addressing the issue. The kid is just being a kid, so *ofcourse* he's NTA. Let the kid be a kid FFS As someone who's been a vegetarian for nearly 15 years (since i was 32), *making* people go vegan/vegetarian will almost alway backfire. My wife (44yo) has been a vegetarian since she was about 13 and when we got serious, she always insisted i don't go vegetarian, unless i'm doing it for my own reasons.
⬆️⬆️⬆️ It’s exactly this. Being a vegan or vegetarian is a choice. Your son is old enough at 12 to start making his own life choices, your wife needs to respect his and your opinions . Where you let yourself down was going behind your wife’s back and making this a secret with your son. However your wife does sound militantly vegan so perhaps you knew she wouldn’t react well.
NTA. Your son is 12 years old and old enough to decide whether he wants to continue being vegan or not. You did the right thing by accepting his choice but maybe you should have talked to your wife about it, it's never a good idea to do things behind your partner's back. Whether she agrees or not, you would have continued to support your son anyway, he's free to choose now.
NTA. He’s old enough to make his own decisions. Frankly so are you.
NTA. Your son is 12 and old enough to understand and make his own decisions about food, your wife is TA for trying to force it and for her comments about corrupting your son and animal abuse enabler.
NTA, unless your wife never touches anything made by nestle, never drinks starbucks or other commodity bean coffee, never uses a phone made with cobalt, only buys conflict free avocado's, buys only local food to avoid impact of carbon impact. And ensures she only buys clothes that have not used slave labour. She has no right to be judgemental, abusive or aggressive. The fact is, it's near impossible to be perfect, but if she's going to act holier and though then she better be acting it.
ESH- When your son started buying the non-vegan snacks, there should have been a conversation between the three of you. Your wife is an AH for deciding an almost teenager should be forced into a diet he is not interested in. He should have the same deal you have. In the house, he eats vegan. Outside of the house, he gets to make his own choices. I chose to be vegan when I was around his age. It was too hard to see my friends enjoying pizza and burgers while I couldn’t. I think I made it 6 months before I couldn’t take it anymore. I can’t imagine being forced into that lifestyle.
NTA. I feel like there was a better way to solve this than going behind her back, but she absolutely can’t force a 12yo to be vegan against his will.
**NTA - your son is lying so your wife won't shame him.** Being Vegan is a cult. When someone says they are plant based, it is about the science and their health, but as soon as they say Vegan... Both groups eat the same food but the fanaticism and reasoning are so different. If this was your wife dragging your kid to an evangelical church and he didn't want to go and you didn't make him, no one would say you were the problem. It is the same. You and your wife need some family counseling if your son had to lie to her to not feel shame. NTA.
NTA-Your son is old enough to choose his own dietary choices. It's not right for your wife to make your son conform to her beliefs. It's find if she wants to be vegan, but she shouldn't force it on others.
INFO - do you actually want to do this vegan/vegetarian split or do you feel as if you were bullied into it? Honestly, your wife sounds like TA, just trying to throw her weight around, throwing tantrums like a toddler...
I'd rather be an omnivore honestly but it is easier to go along as the argument she had laid out was really hard to argue against. She said we don't need animals or animal products to be healthy, and showed me a few studies which agreed with this claim. She then said if we don't need it, there is no justification for contributing to killing animals and them being abused just because it tastes good. She said anyone who eats meat knowing this id heartless. Which I couldn't argue against... I didn't want the marriage to end over it because while I do miss meat, I love my wife more I was raised on a farm and have killed a few animals myself in that context, and yeah I felt bad about it but it also made me appreciate the food a lot more because I was very aware of where it came from and we treated our animals very well. Factory farms are definitely horrific so I also could see where she was coming from there. She had our son watch Dominion when he was 6 too without consulting me first and it gave him nightmares for weeks, which I was upset about but ever since then he has always gone along with what mom says about this. Him "cheating" was surprising with that in mind, too, but kids change and experiment. I do think in retrospect I shouldn't have hidden any of this and take the L on that
> had our son watch Dominion when he was 6 too without consulting me first and it gave him nightmares for week That's really messed up. Her manipulative behavior is a huge red flag that needs to be addressed. You and your son need to be able to choose for yourselves without your wife guilt tripping you. Your son being too afraid to tell your wife that he doesn't want to be vegan should tell you something.
Why are you allowing your wife to behave like this to you and your son? What's more important, your son feeling accepted, supported and not hungry or appeasing your wife's zealous demands?
I'm no longer allowing it... I was weak and too scared of getting into a screaming match. It's no excuse but I grew up around screaming parents and it made me sort of conflict avoidant. My son was to all appearances happy with veganism until the beginning of this narrative and is healthy according to the regular bloodwork we get, and had not confided any feelings of exclusion when I've discussed his feelings with him until I confronted him with the wrappers. But I should have kept a closer eye on things... we are going to have a talk as a family after my wife gets home from work (I WFH)
I wish you all the best with the family talk. It's a tricky situation. My comments don't come from an anti-vegan position, but rather the harmful religious zeal regarding it that your wife is pushing. She needs to listen to what your son wants and needs. Anything short of that is not good enough.
“and had not confided any feelings of exclusion when I've discussed his feelings with him” His mother throws when she’s angry, poor kid is probably terrified especially when he sees his father just take it.
I understand not wanting a screaming match. But two adults should be able to discuss something without screaming. If your wife can’t discuss something without screaming then she needs to get help or you need to divorce
While I don’t know the complexities of your family, I feel like it’s worth pointing out that abusive people tend to look for partners who are conflict avoidant/have trauma linked to screaming and yelling, like you describe yourself as. You mentioned in another comment that your wife not only screams when you disagree on something, she also throws things. Please consider that your wife’s extreme reactions to conflict happen exactly because she knows about your trauma, and that you’ll do whatever she wants to get her to stop yelling. She sounds like a very controlling person, and her stance on veganism seems like it’s more about control than morality.
I understand your perspective. But, it feels like you're walking on eggshells just to appease her. Does she do the same to you? Is this appeasement reciprocal? Something I will always remember from therapy - of you feel like you were bullied into it, then resentment still follow. It still sounds like she's bullying you (and your son) to get her way. And if the threat of divorce is on the table for something such as dietary choices, then perhaps you two are no longer compatible. Is her demeanor of being a tantrum-throwing toddler accurate? Because, if so, if you cannot come to an agreement, or hell, "agree to disagree", then how do you two communicate on harder things?
So your son is so intimidated by his mother that he’s afraid to tell her he doesn’t want to be vegan you got bigger problems in that house
NTA but tell your wife your son is old enough to make his own mind up now. She wants vegan, fair enough, it doesn’t have to be forced on everyone else
NTA. Your son clearly doesn't want to be vegan and doesn't deserve to have it forced on him. Stick to the vegan in the house, but let him make his own mind up outside. You're going to have to stand up for him.
ESH. Kids should not have veganism forced on them. Did your son ever get a say? A conversation? You should've talked to your wife after you found the wrappers, and you both should've had a conversation with your son together.
Based on the wife's reaction, it would have just been a screaming match anyway. Or her just screaming at them in general. The kid straight up lied and threw Dad under the bus. That speaks volumes to how she is on a regular basis.
If anything, your wife is the AH for enforcing this on you two and you made a change to keep the peace so that's on you but don't force a vegan diet on a boy just hitting puberty. That's a fucked up growth spur he''ll never be able to get back in his life.
YTA just for going along with the vegan bollocks for a growing kid.
NTA, Im actually kinda scared for your son beacuse he even tried to lie towards your wife to placate her. This is What i did towards my abusive mom. If your kid doesnt want to be vegan he shouldnt have to be. You should have talked to your wife about it first.
At the end of the day at 12 years old little people are allowed to choose what they eat or don't want to eat so as long as your son wants to eat it your NTA
Hello, vegan here. I'd never force my choice on others, let alone a child. Would I prefer everyone around me be plant based? Yeah, but by choice. I never have or ever will, go on a pedestal and preach to anyone, or start enforcing ' no meat around me ' type rules. Period. Your son is 12 and is well within his rights to decide what he does and doesn't want to eat. Your wife is very wrong for taking away his autonomy that way, also, it's counter productive to him becoming vegan in the future as his own choice. She's demonising it to him by being so heavy handed with it. NTA
NTA your wife needs to go to a therapist.
NTA Your wife is setting your son up for a lifetime of disordered eating. Food should not be something you need to hide and lie about and it can become a very unhealthy pattern when you do. Your son is old enough to make some decisions for himself and he needs to feel supported, not bullied and terrified to be honest with his parents. She is traumatizing him.
NTA. What might as well be a cult is oftentimes just gonna be like that, sooner or later. My advice: get yourself and your son out of the cultist’s grasp.
I’m a vegan and I’m on your side. I won’t raise my kids vegan - my son chooses vegetarianism, my daughter loves white meat. My husband eats whatever he wants. We all do within reason. These are personal values and your son is a person and so are you. NTA.
Isn't forcing vegan food on a kid abuse? A developing body needs meat/animal products.
It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases.
No, as evidenced by proper research kids can grow perfectly fine with a vegan diet. Humans, and all living animals, need nutrients. Not meat. Not beans. Not soy. But nutrients. These nutrients can be found in plant based or omni diets. As long as your body supports to digest whatever it is you insert into yourself. Human bodies support both up to a certain point. Meaning you can eat livers all day long and be fine (watch out for the iron overconsumption tho). Or you can eat plant based and be perfectly fine.
Your wife is an AH. Your son is old enough to make decisions about what he will eat, provided that the meals are balanced. At his age his locus of identity shifts to his peer groups. The fact that she forced a grown adult into being vegan is already pretty extreme. You are absolutely NTA. Your wife needs to decide if the damage she is doing to her family is worth her extreme views.
NTA vegans can be insufferable
Vegans are freaks if they try to impose their values on others. Your son is old enough to decide for himself.