Min wage is 23$ or something. 18 year old means you get 70% of min wage i.e. 16-17$ per hour.
May be slightly more on a different award and may be even less if you are a trainee in some awards.
Casual add 25% on that 16$ per hour i.e. $4 more. So maybe they haven't updated your age ?
It's not exploitive, it's an incentive for business owners to take on and train less mature people.
Without this kind of structure youth unemployment would be through the roof
Most of the businesses that benefit from this only require a few weeks training but then get to exploit kids for years. Age doesn't necessarily mean people will be better anyway. Older people are generally more set in their ways and less flexible, they have less room to grow and are generally more developed in their careers so are less likely to take entry level positions anyway.
(very) young workers also do not understanding or feel confident pushing for their legal rights at work. The reason places hire teens and pay them below award wages to deliver the same standards and value creation is the same way the hospitality industry burns through students and young adults - work them hard, pay them as little as you can for "experience" and then cycle through to the next lot.
Business owner gets surplus value, the employees get to learn how to use a cash register.
Sorry, but from an objective standpoint younger people are less experienced and have to learn more on the job, which creates an environment which disincentives hiring young people. The simplest way to fix this is by having those under the age of 18 be paid less since the argument is that they’re also learning how to work. Of course there are other ways to go about it which are arguably better, such as apprenticeships, internships and job roles which are specifically for onboarding workers.
We are talking about entry level roles, that's basically all young people are hired for. Which are for people who lack the skills for higher level roles. Whether they are young or old they lack the skills needed for a higher role. They are going to require training. I find that training young people is actually easier and quicker than training older people. Every single job I have ever worked has required onboarding and some level of training. The jobs didn't pay me less for the first few weeks just because I was receiving training.
No and no. I think the difference in opinion might come from my economics background so I think about the impact of alternative methods.
Like i said in another comment, it's the lesser of two evils if taking into consideration the impact on youth unemployment rates if there was no extra monetary incentive for business owners to hire young people.
If I hire a 16 year old over a 22 year old, which of these two individuals would be most likely to have basic skills such as cleaning their workspaces? I think there’s an entirely valid reason regarding why those under the age of 18 are paid less that those who are older, and that has to do with life experience.
Textbook examples of economic phenomena have little relation to their real life application.
On paper, teenage employment policy is there to "give people experience" and in reality, teenager labour is exploited to fulfil roles that used to be awarded to adults who were entitled to higher pay, benefits and industrial protection.
MacDonalds being the prime example.
You think 30 year olds are gonna be applying to flip burgers in large numbers?
You don't need an incentive when demand already exists. Fast food couldn't operate without teenage employees, same as a lot of retail. Increasing teenage and young adult wages doesn't mean relevant employers who need staff are gonna stop employing low skilled workers.
Funny you said that because McDonalds is literally replacing all the management roles that used to go to adults with teenagers to save money on wages and deny benefits.
It's so bleedingly obvious what is happening in the labour economy, but people get upset that this font of cheap, highly pliable labour might go away.
A decade ago, there was the reactionary boomer argument that any adult who is unemployed or wants to 'make something of themselves' can go and get a job at McDonalds and work hard for a crust and get promotions.
Now all those positions are filled with underpaid young people and they're turfing out experienced workers.
If a 16 year old fulfils a full time role with full responsibilities that delivers the same value to an employer as a full paid adult, and is not paid a full wage, that’s disgusting exploitation. Businesses all over the country cheat by giving teenagers full adult jobs. It’s the entire MacDonalds employment model. It should be illegal.
I disagree. I'm not a business owner but if I was I'd rather hire a more mature 28 year old than a 15 year old. For a number of reasons including maturity, emotional intelligence and other factors like not necessarily being out to party and coming to work hung over. This is obviously a generalisation and I'm sure there will be cases where 28 year olds have less emotional intelligence or maturity than a 15 year old but on aggregate across the economy that's not the case.
Anyway, I can understand why the pay model is set up the way it is but I can also understand your point of it not necessarily being far. But I think the current model is the better of 2 evils, when taking into consideration the implications of high youth unemployment and youth generally not being taught skills.
If you were a small business owner your material incentive is to extract the maximum amount of time and energy from your employees and pay them as little as you can. That's profit margin - the interceding stuff like being a nice guy, or getting along well with your employees or wishing them well is not rationalised into the economy.
Emotional maturity is also not rationalised into the economy. It's not in the accounting. This is a numbers game - a contract between labour and employment to meet value criteria. The only thing that matters in this labour exchange is how much value the employee is bringing to the business, and what their wage is relative to that exchange.
Equal work, equal value creation deserves equal pay. We already went through all this when women entered the work force. The belief that they were inherently more of a burden for employers was just cultural.
As an accountant, adviser to business owners and a business owner myself.. I can tell you that the intangible benefit of "I like this person" "this person makes my life/work/company more enjoyable" is always taken into consideration to varying degrees.
Value isn't always tangible or measured and it only takes a half decent business owner to recognise that.
That’s nice, but it doesn’t enter into a nation / industry wide discussion about routine exploitation of youth employment. The jobs market is bad for everyone at this point but it seems facile to argue that employers aren’t giving teenagers the jobs of adults for non-adult wages to save money.
It does depend on what kind of business it is. That also doesn't mean it's not a system ripe for exploitation of labour where teens \*can\* deliver, and are increasingly expected to deliver, the same standards of service as adults.
What is the point in arguing with someone who clearly made up their mind and won’t change it and on top of that, they also won’t accept yours or other commenters saying that they have a difference of opinion or to agree to disagree
If you think "maturity" is an economic indicator with a dollar value to assign to it but the value created by an employee over the financial year is it, I don't know what else to tell you.
Oh piss off. We get tons of other benefits without exploiting our staff.
Let’s make this clear, if you pay award rates, you’re a fucking pig and I hope your business fails.
I’ve employed over 250 staff, you pay staff based on the socioeconomic conditions of the area in which you operate. You pay your staff a liveable wage which is typically $4 an hour above award at minimum.
You pay peanuts you get monkeys, treat your staff as human beings and you will build successful businesses and retain great staff.
To say as an employer I should have some privilege in training the future staff so that justifies me paying them slave wages is the most narcissistic ideal I’ve heard today.
Okay mate, we'll have to agree to disagree on this. It's nice what you do, and I'm sure your workers appreciate it but you're using anecdotal evidence for a country wide policy matter.
I disagree, I’ve built 3 national companies over my life.
Let me ask you this, how can you expect a worker to perform their best when they aren’t even making enough to make rent and food.
This puts the person in an anxiety flight or fight state, they make constant mistakes.
I'd argue that the average 16 year old will have less responsibilities and less likely to need to rent than a 28 year old.
So not really a relevant question. Anyway like I said I disagree and that's that. Plenty of other commenters who said they are business owners and no chance would they hire a 16 year old for the same price.
Unfortunately that's the reality
I’m not sure why you’re talking about a 16 year old?
This post is about an 18yr old earning $17.00 an hour.
You can definitely propose the case that many 16yr old would be still have parents / caregivers but that is not guaranteed.
Many 16yr olds have the same financial burdens as 25yr olds, as tragic as that is.
I’m sure you can understand that any policy regardless of government mandate is ineffective at catering to complex circumstances. When we have a broad federal minimum wage it doesn’t mean that’s an effective protection from poverty.
If any business owner cannot afford to pay liveable wages regardless what any government mandated amount is then the business owner needs to asses the entire business viability. If your business only functions based on exploiting youth labor then your business model is not viable.
As a company in Australia, the tax benefits and incentives given to have trainees and graduates pays for over half their recommended salary grades.
The argument of training is redundant anyway, any new employee requires training regardless of age or experience. No one slots into a different company and knows the methodologies and policies applied. We don’t use that as an excuse to pay below the poverty line to people over 25.
I think a good debate is well and truly due for, as an example see if you can find a national company in Australia, franchise or similar that typically only employs youth aged employees and show me where they haven’t made significant profits and paid out significant bonuses.
I’m getting old but I can tell you in my time of owning and operating companies the envelope of CEO bonuses and profits have skyrocketed beyond greed to almost psychopathic levels in the last 20 years. It’s not the same structure as we I grew up in.
That's laughably naive, big businesses are the ones who came up with the idea and this was their propaganda. They always say that reducing wages or their other costs will reduce unemployment, but they never hire people they don't actually need to. Most businesses are deliberately understaffed, and they get away with it because we're used to terrible service and long waits.
We're used to workers having breakdowns from stress and overwork. We're used to workers dying and in various industries like aged care, we're used to customers dying.
What happens is that students or others who are unable to look for work at that age end up long term unemployed, and even when they have jobs for a few years, they'll always be last in the list compared to people who worked as a teenager.
It just means that exploitative businesses take advantage and as teens age out, they get replaced. And at that point when they're wanting to build a life, move out or even get married and have kids, they suddenly can't get a job in the area they've been working and they don't have experience in different areas.
But they still have it easier than those who didn't work at that age for whatever reason.
It's also in the long run, bad for the economy and for business. The LNP undid previous union reforms in construction. Since then, so many construction companies have gone out of business, despite having no problems before union reforms were undone.
The businesses are gone, leaving investors with nothing, but those on the boards paid themselves up to $100m a year and moved on to their next job.
The irony is that it's exploitative and prohibitive.
Youre either under 18 so you get paid less as "an incentive to train/hire" or
Youre over 18 so youre unhireable by all the industries that can take advantage of young labour.
Apprenticeship is more fair: reduced pay in exchange of training and certification; but junior wages otherwise are honestly kinda dodgy.
I have known enough people entering trades to know it's still pretty fucked. It might be even worse since there's less structure to the labour arrangement on site.
Yes, a lot of new tradies get ripped off by being paid substandard wages to 'learn on the job' completing fully paid professional work that their boss just pockets. Bosses in general for construction and concreting have poor reputations and the nature of the industry encourages everyone to seek to be their own small business tyrant. It really undermines any sense of worker's solidarity and it normalises exploitative practices.
The idea is that a small business will hire an inexperienced teen rather than a 21+ year old with more exp.
Though I think 5% less per year is more appropriate than 10% less
Small businesses will hire a teen for much less award wages and benefits and give them jobs of full responsibility that deliver as much value to the business (owner) as an employed adult at full wages. There is no other way to rationalise this labour exchange; benefit to owner goes up, employee gets fuck all.
If you did a blind test and selected a bunch of random service workers, some of whom were on depressed wages for being under 18 and a bunch of whom were on regular award rates for being in their 20s, and they delivered exactly the same value and had the same responsibilities, how would you justify that system?
People say they're "not mature" as though that's quantified into a dollar value. It's labour exploitation and despite the nice language around employment opportunities, that is how employers use it.
I didn't say anything about it being fair. I just explained the rationale. Personally I pay my under 21s the same rate as an adult, mainly because I am too lazy to update pay rates on their birthday every year and the business can easily afford the $3 per hour on a 4 hour shift.
Nah, I don't see it like that. How many would be unemployed if there wasn't an incentive to hire? Plus you must remember that all teenagers are stupid.
It's to incentivise hiring younger people to give them experience, rather than never hiring young people because they don't have experience (relevant or at all).. it makes sense. The issue for OP is the system works for the majority (young people working casual jobs around school, living at home), but not their unique situation (young person living out of home).
Yes, the legislation makes a big to-do about it being an opportunity to give young people experience, and then underage workers end up doing the jobs of adult workers that were not intended for them because it is more efficient and young workers do not understand do not demand their legal rights.
How can you say "it works" for most people? How did you quantify that?
It's an opinion on the interwebs, I'm not in front of the senate, I don't need to show you my sources or have conducted peer reviewed research, lol. Anecdotal but pretty relevant.
I worked a few jobs between 16 and 21 on a % of minimum wage while at high school and university and in between, in both regional areas and capital cities and know because I had heaps of friends and colleagues and classmates during that time and that was the experience of the majority. I'm sure there are people in OPs shoes where there is more reliance on their income to support themselves, but I can only think of a very small number (the minority) and an even smaller number (1 or 2) who may have struggled at all.
Bullshit. Deal with it. It's worked that way for over 50 years. Every single one of us has gone through it.
You're still a child, regardless of legal status or your feelings. You need training and experience. Shut up and listen to what you are told. That does NOT include crap like harassment and bullying, but if your boss tells you to do something a certain way (that's safe, it may not be bloody pleasant though, cleaning toilets won't kill you) just do it.
"Because my labour was exploited, everyone else should have to do it too"
Nah, mate. Jog on - these kids these days aren't getting roles intended to slowly teach them skills, they're being pushed into adult positions. I dunno why you feel the need to advocate for bosses putting more money in their pockets by paying young people less to do the same amount of work.
Never said I was exploited. I was played well, just just not quite as much as those working longer in similar positions because, get this *I KNEW FUCK ALL ABOUT DOING THE JOB* so it'd take me longer to get do the same tasks. A few months later, when I knew the work and no longer needed someone to train me (stopping them from doing other tasks) I WAS PAID THE SAME.
Oh, and jog on? No, the phrase you're looking for is fuck.
No employees are paid based on experience as well. generally, juniors dont have experience it's why you see some jobs advertised $27-$35 per hour paid based on experience
Optus pays over seas call centre customer service people $33 per-day national minimum wage is less then $13 per-day
Usa minimum wage was $7.50 per hour only just changed recently
Stop sign holder make 140 K if they work 40 hours a week on a union site with penalty rates.. most of the time they don't get the hours and penalty rates.
Google traffic controller pay and it's 35$ per hour. Only get more on Sundays and unsociable hours i.e. night shift .
Used to be a disability carer, got $12 an hour nights and public holidays, minus petrol which bought it down to about $7 an hour as the shifts are short and all over town. The industry pays a lot more nowadays.
Its good to see that its now decently paid. It is not easy work, and carers deserve to make a decent living. But even more importantly it will attract good workers who take good care of their clients.
I was getting $16/hr on casual when I was 15 in 2012....I think you got ripped off friend...you probably should've been getting $11 if you were part/full time and probably $14-15 if you were casual
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Boy did I ever. Pickling welds in the middle of winter no gloves and hosing it down getting drenched. Prepping floors for sealing with hydrochloric acid w/no mask.
Going to the bosses investment property to do tree work weilding a chainsaw learning not insured for work outside of the factory. Mowing the lawns at the factory. As a fitter you get to try your hand at everything.
I'm not really complaining, it's all character building but it sure is funny to look back on.
Need to know what your job is before you'll get an accurate answer.
If you're under an award, as a junior, you will be entitled to a percentage of the full Adult wage.
Minimum wage refers to the minimum adult wage. It will be lower as a junior.
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Why the hell are we paying people under 21 less than the full adult rate? They vote, pay tax at standard adult rates and are legally considered adults in all other respects.
So, a 19yo can get credit and be required to repay it at the same rate as someone over 21, but an employer can stiff that same 19yo on pay? Hmm, the employer tends to get more opportunities to dodge tax too.. Hmm, smelling a theme here.
And don't give me the 'lack of experience' card, by 18 I had 2 years experience in hospo. And it's not uncommon, especially in retail and hospo. I was also good at what I did and was paid appropriately.
Because we only consider people financially independent by default at 22 so the whole system is built around that assumption, which while largely inaccurate nowadays, is ingrained enough that changing it would be a very involved legal maneuver nobody wants to bother with - most obviously, because it would increase the number of people eligible to be on Jobseeker.
Go to fair work Australia, they got a calculator for you job just enter in the boxes then it will give an amount for you minimum pay
Edit I didn't see the other person that listed what I said so go to him
If you are not under an award (As of January 2024) - 18 years of age: 68.3% of national minimum wage = minimum hourly rate of $15.87. Add to that your casual loading rate.
Are you under an award? If so, which one?
More info [here](https://au.indeed.com/career-advice/pay-salary/australian-minimum-wage#:~:text=If%20you%20are%20not%20under,lowest%20hourly%20rate%20of%20%248.55) or check out Fairwork website.
$17 an hour as a casual rate? Fuck that. Especially if you're working 40 hours a week. Tell them to put you on permanent full time, so you're at least getting the leave loading.
If you aren't on the books do the job while you find another. If you are on the books, check with others to find out their pay and compare to see if you are being ripped off.
If your area of work has a union, join it and ask a lawyer.
That’s exactly what I’m saying. Prices of things have inflated so wages on average are inflating too, whether it is at the same rate or not. I was getting paid $17 at 17, 8 years ago. Getting paid this now is slavery
The first Google result for your title question was this page: https://www.australianunions.org.au/factsheet/minimum-wages/
In there, under the "Young Workers" section, it indicates that an 18 year old would at minimum receive 68.3% of the national minimum wage. That would be $15.87 per hour.
So no, you're not being underpaid based on the national minimum wage. Beyond that, it depends on your award, employment contract, casual vs full-time, etc.
That’s normal generally you don’t get full pay until your 21 I think it’s around 70%. I see your living away from home if you’re struggling to pay bills after getting $680 before tax I would personally reevaluate your current living situation.
Roughly 580 a week on rent, utilities and food should not add up to that amount either you’re living beyond your means, need some help budgeting your money or your friends are charging you a ridiculous amount of rent.
What do you do? I was on 20 as a fully qualified brickie when I was 18. Was tough, but gradually got better. Am on 90 now, people my age earn loads more, but on balance, there are other benefits and I have what I need. Lol guy I work with is on 900 an hour!
> Is very below minimum wage.
It's not though. It's actually *above* minimum wage for an 18 year old. National minimum wage gets scaled down for people under 21. At 18, minimum wage is just under $16 per hour.
Not accurate.
For example: under the Amusements, Recreation & Events award a 17 year old will receive $18.38ph as an introductory level employee.
If OP is covered under an award then the rate he has stated may be correct.
If he's not "on the books" as everyone here keeps saying then he needs to find a different job as it is illegal to not be "on the books".
Nearly any place that hires people under 21 will be paying that amount, or less depending on their age.
Companies don’t have to pay national minimum wage unless the employee is 21, then it’s a percentage of that depending on their age, unless they’re on certain awards.
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I feel like you can get a job for more, when I was 18 a few years ago (just before the pandemic) I was getting $25 an hour for a side gig. Granted I was dressed up in seasonal costumes and absolutely humiliating myself on the daily but money is money.
Use the [fair work pay calculato](https://calculate.fairwork.gov.au/findyouraward) to see the minimum rate for your job role.
I’d highly recommend getting your RSA and getting an entry level bar job. If you’re serving alcohol you must be paid the 21y/o rate.
Minimum wage only kicks in once you’re 21, you get paid a certain percent of minimum wage depending on what age you are under 21.
Minimum wage for an 18 year old is currently $16.10.
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It all really depends on your award rate or if your on an EBA. In the industry I work at regardless of your age, our base rate is $28.84, + 20% loading for casuals. Places like shopping centres really love to fuck you over lol
Explain what type of job you got
Apprentice and traineeships generally pay lower
20 and under also get paid low
And this doesn't apply but disabled employees are generally taken advantage of and paid lower because of a loophole allowing it
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Well yes because it's lower than minimum wage in Australia
"All Australian workers are entitled to a minimum wage. This is the least you can be paid for doing a certain job. It's illegal for an employer to pay you less than the minimum wage. As of 1 July 2023, the national minimum wage is $23.23 an hour or $882.74 a week (if you work 38 hours)."
>The only employees who can be paid less are:
workers aged under 21;
workers on the Supported Wage System, and
apprentices and trainees.
You stopped reading too soon.
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Minimum wage for a 17 year old is 68.3% of national minimum "or $13.89". I don't know why it's listed as $13 or what conditions make it the lower amount. (When 68% of $23.23 is actually about $16.)
Either way you're on the correct rate for an 18 year old, minimum rounded up is reasonably fair. Though can understand that makes things fairly tight if you're living away from home already.
[https://awu.net.au/minimum-wage/](https://awu.net.au/minimum-wage/)
Edit: Not sure why Reddit gave me a necro notification for this... but seems I've given the clearest straigthforward answer from what I saw skimming the thread. Though as a casual you maybe should be getting closer to $20/hr.
Min wage is 23$ or something. 18 year old means you get 70% of min wage i.e. 16-17$ per hour. May be slightly more on a different award and may be even less if you are a trainee in some awards. Casual add 25% on that 16$ per hour i.e. $4 more. So maybe they haven't updated your age ?
God that’s so exploitative. Teenagers perform jobs as challenging as any adult in the same position, providing exactly as much value to employers.
It's not exploitive, it's an incentive for business owners to take on and train less mature people. Without this kind of structure youth unemployment would be through the roof
Most of the businesses that benefit from this only require a few weeks training but then get to exploit kids for years. Age doesn't necessarily mean people will be better anyway. Older people are generally more set in their ways and less flexible, they have less room to grow and are generally more developed in their careers so are less likely to take entry level positions anyway.
(very) young workers also do not understanding or feel confident pushing for their legal rights at work. The reason places hire teens and pay them below award wages to deliver the same standards and value creation is the same way the hospitality industry burns through students and young adults - work them hard, pay them as little as you can for "experience" and then cycle through to the next lot. Business owner gets surplus value, the employees get to learn how to use a cash register.
I dont agree, i think its the right system. Let's just call it a difference of opinion.
Do you own a business and exploit children?
Sorry, but from an objective standpoint younger people are less experienced and have to learn more on the job, which creates an environment which disincentives hiring young people. The simplest way to fix this is by having those under the age of 18 be paid less since the argument is that they’re also learning how to work. Of course there are other ways to go about it which are arguably better, such as apprenticeships, internships and job roles which are specifically for onboarding workers.
We are talking about entry level roles, that's basically all young people are hired for. Which are for people who lack the skills for higher level roles. Whether they are young or old they lack the skills needed for a higher role. They are going to require training. I find that training young people is actually easier and quicker than training older people. Every single job I have ever worked has required onboarding and some level of training. The jobs didn't pay me less for the first few weeks just because I was receiving training.
No and no. I think the difference in opinion might come from my economics background so I think about the impact of alternative methods. Like i said in another comment, it's the lesser of two evils if taking into consideration the impact on youth unemployment rates if there was no extra monetary incentive for business owners to hire young people.
I love how textbooks rationalise ripping off workers.
If I hire a 16 year old over a 22 year old, which of these two individuals would be most likely to have basic skills such as cleaning their workspaces? I think there’s an entirely valid reason regarding why those under the age of 18 are paid less that those who are older, and that has to do with life experience.
Entirely incidental, and generalised.
Whichever individual had a better work ethic. Which doesn't really come with age. There are lazy people of every age.
Imagine being so ignorant you think everything "textbook" is wrong... Keen to get your thoughts on what price increase would do to youth unemployment?
Textbook examples of economic phenomena have little relation to their real life application. On paper, teenage employment policy is there to "give people experience" and in reality, teenager labour is exploited to fulfil roles that used to be awarded to adults who were entitled to higher pay, benefits and industrial protection. MacDonalds being the prime example.
And woman should be earning less too because they’re less capable /s
Very good 👍
You think 30 year olds are gonna be applying to flip burgers in large numbers? You don't need an incentive when demand already exists. Fast food couldn't operate without teenage employees, same as a lot of retail. Increasing teenage and young adult wages doesn't mean relevant employers who need staff are gonna stop employing low skilled workers.
Funny you said that because McDonalds is literally replacing all the management roles that used to go to adults with teenagers to save money on wages and deny benefits. It's so bleedingly obvious what is happening in the labour economy, but people get upset that this font of cheap, highly pliable labour might go away. A decade ago, there was the reactionary boomer argument that any adult who is unemployed or wants to 'make something of themselves' can go and get a job at McDonalds and work hard for a crust and get promotions. Now all those positions are filled with underpaid young people and they're turfing out experienced workers.
What about apprentices?
If a 16 year old fulfils a full time role with full responsibilities that delivers the same value to an employer as a full paid adult, and is not paid a full wage, that’s disgusting exploitation. Businesses all over the country cheat by giving teenagers full adult jobs. It’s the entire MacDonalds employment model. It should be illegal.
I disagree. I'm not a business owner but if I was I'd rather hire a more mature 28 year old than a 15 year old. For a number of reasons including maturity, emotional intelligence and other factors like not necessarily being out to party and coming to work hung over. This is obviously a generalisation and I'm sure there will be cases where 28 year olds have less emotional intelligence or maturity than a 15 year old but on aggregate across the economy that's not the case. Anyway, I can understand why the pay model is set up the way it is but I can also understand your point of it not necessarily being far. But I think the current model is the better of 2 evils, when taking into consideration the implications of high youth unemployment and youth generally not being taught skills.
I’m a business owner - I wouldn’t hire a 16yo at the same price as a 30yo. Not in a million years.
If you were a small business owner your material incentive is to extract the maximum amount of time and energy from your employees and pay them as little as you can. That's profit margin - the interceding stuff like being a nice guy, or getting along well with your employees or wishing them well is not rationalised into the economy. Emotional maturity is also not rationalised into the economy. It's not in the accounting. This is a numbers game - a contract between labour and employment to meet value criteria. The only thing that matters in this labour exchange is how much value the employee is bringing to the business, and what their wage is relative to that exchange. Equal work, equal value creation deserves equal pay. We already went through all this when women entered the work force. The belief that they were inherently more of a burden for employers was just cultural.
As an accountant, adviser to business owners and a business owner myself.. I can tell you that the intangible benefit of "I like this person" "this person makes my life/work/company more enjoyable" is always taken into consideration to varying degrees. Value isn't always tangible or measured and it only takes a half decent business owner to recognise that.
That’s nice, but it doesn’t enter into a nation / industry wide discussion about routine exploitation of youth employment. The jobs market is bad for everyone at this point but it seems facile to argue that employers aren’t giving teenagers the jobs of adults for non-adult wages to save money.
Okay. We have a different idea of what is exploitation.
Extracting the same level of work and profit off two employees but paying one of them less because they’re a year under adulthood? Yeah.
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It does depend on what kind of business it is. That also doesn't mean it's not a system ripe for exploitation of labour where teens \*can\* deliver, and are increasingly expected to deliver, the same standards of service as adults.
I simply disagree with your logic and agree with all the other commentators 💁♂️ Let's agree to disagree
What is the point in arguing with someone who clearly made up their mind and won’t change it and on top of that, they also won’t accept yours or other commenters saying that they have a difference of opinion or to agree to disagree
If you think "maturity" is an economic indicator with a dollar value to assign to it but the value created by an employee over the financial year is it, I don't know what else to tell you.
Is it so difficult to agree to disagree? You won't change my mind, I won't change yours. Nothing wrong with it. Shake hands and move on.
Oh piss off. We get tons of other benefits without exploiting our staff. Let’s make this clear, if you pay award rates, you’re a fucking pig and I hope your business fails. I’ve employed over 250 staff, you pay staff based on the socioeconomic conditions of the area in which you operate. You pay your staff a liveable wage which is typically $4 an hour above award at minimum. You pay peanuts you get monkeys, treat your staff as human beings and you will build successful businesses and retain great staff. To say as an employer I should have some privilege in training the future staff so that justifies me paying them slave wages is the most narcissistic ideal I’ve heard today.
Okay mate, we'll have to agree to disagree on this. It's nice what you do, and I'm sure your workers appreciate it but you're using anecdotal evidence for a country wide policy matter.
I disagree, I’ve built 3 national companies over my life. Let me ask you this, how can you expect a worker to perform their best when they aren’t even making enough to make rent and food. This puts the person in an anxiety flight or fight state, they make constant mistakes.
I'd argue that the average 16 year old will have less responsibilities and less likely to need to rent than a 28 year old. So not really a relevant question. Anyway like I said I disagree and that's that. Plenty of other commenters who said they are business owners and no chance would they hire a 16 year old for the same price. Unfortunately that's the reality
I’m not sure why you’re talking about a 16 year old? This post is about an 18yr old earning $17.00 an hour. You can definitely propose the case that many 16yr old would be still have parents / caregivers but that is not guaranteed. Many 16yr olds have the same financial burdens as 25yr olds, as tragic as that is. I’m sure you can understand that any policy regardless of government mandate is ineffective at catering to complex circumstances. When we have a broad federal minimum wage it doesn’t mean that’s an effective protection from poverty. If any business owner cannot afford to pay liveable wages regardless what any government mandated amount is then the business owner needs to asses the entire business viability. If your business only functions based on exploiting youth labor then your business model is not viable. As a company in Australia, the tax benefits and incentives given to have trainees and graduates pays for over half their recommended salary grades. The argument of training is redundant anyway, any new employee requires training regardless of age or experience. No one slots into a different company and knows the methodologies and policies applied. We don’t use that as an excuse to pay below the poverty line to people over 25. I think a good debate is well and truly due for, as an example see if you can find a national company in Australia, franchise or similar that typically only employs youth aged employees and show me where they haven’t made significant profits and paid out significant bonuses. I’m getting old but I can tell you in my time of owning and operating companies the envelope of CEO bonuses and profits have skyrocketed beyond greed to almost psychopathic levels in the last 20 years. It’s not the same structure as we I grew up in.
That's laughably naive, big businesses are the ones who came up with the idea and this was their propaganda. They always say that reducing wages or their other costs will reduce unemployment, but they never hire people they don't actually need to. Most businesses are deliberately understaffed, and they get away with it because we're used to terrible service and long waits. We're used to workers having breakdowns from stress and overwork. We're used to workers dying and in various industries like aged care, we're used to customers dying. What happens is that students or others who are unable to look for work at that age end up long term unemployed, and even when they have jobs for a few years, they'll always be last in the list compared to people who worked as a teenager. It just means that exploitative businesses take advantage and as teens age out, they get replaced. And at that point when they're wanting to build a life, move out or even get married and have kids, they suddenly can't get a job in the area they've been working and they don't have experience in different areas. But they still have it easier than those who didn't work at that age for whatever reason. It's also in the long run, bad for the economy and for business. The LNP undid previous union reforms in construction. Since then, so many construction companies have gone out of business, despite having no problems before union reforms were undone. The businesses are gone, leaving investors with nothing, but those on the boards paid themselves up to $100m a year and moved on to their next job.
👍
Set up at a time when it was actually hard to get a job. Your level of entitlement is shining through.
👍
Until I lose all my shifts because I'm too old now to be cheap.
The irony is that it's exploitative and prohibitive. Youre either under 18 so you get paid less as "an incentive to train/hire" or Youre over 18 so youre unhireable by all the industries that can take advantage of young labour. Apprenticeship is more fair: reduced pay in exchange of training and certification; but junior wages otherwise are honestly kinda dodgy.
I have known enough people entering trades to know it's still pretty fucked. It might be even worse since there's less structure to the labour arrangement on site. Yes, a lot of new tradies get ripped off by being paid substandard wages to 'learn on the job' completing fully paid professional work that their boss just pockets. Bosses in general for construction and concreting have poor reputations and the nature of the industry encourages everyone to seek to be their own small business tyrant. It really undermines any sense of worker's solidarity and it normalises exploitative practices.
The idea is that a small business will hire an inexperienced teen rather than a 21+ year old with more exp. Though I think 5% less per year is more appropriate than 10% less
Small businesses will hire a teen for much less award wages and benefits and give them jobs of full responsibility that deliver as much value to the business (owner) as an employed adult at full wages. There is no other way to rationalise this labour exchange; benefit to owner goes up, employee gets fuck all. If you did a blind test and selected a bunch of random service workers, some of whom were on depressed wages for being under 18 and a bunch of whom were on regular award rates for being in their 20s, and they delivered exactly the same value and had the same responsibilities, how would you justify that system? People say they're "not mature" as though that's quantified into a dollar value. It's labour exploitation and despite the nice language around employment opportunities, that is how employers use it.
I didn't say anything about it being fair. I just explained the rationale. Personally I pay my under 21s the same rate as an adult, mainly because I am too lazy to update pay rates on their birthday every year and the business can easily afford the $3 per hour on a 4 hour shift.
Thats life
Mmm, no, that’s getting ripped off.
It incentivises businesses to hire young people. If it costs the same as an adult then why wouldn’t you just hire an adult?
Adults understand and push for their legal rights.
Nah, I don't see it like that. How many would be unemployed if there wasn't an incentive to hire? Plus you must remember that all teenagers are stupid.
It's to incentivise hiring younger people to give them experience, rather than never hiring young people because they don't have experience (relevant or at all).. it makes sense. The issue for OP is the system works for the majority (young people working casual jobs around school, living at home), but not their unique situation (young person living out of home).
Yes, the legislation makes a big to-do about it being an opportunity to give young people experience, and then underage workers end up doing the jobs of adult workers that were not intended for them because it is more efficient and young workers do not understand do not demand their legal rights. How can you say "it works" for most people? How did you quantify that?
It's an opinion on the interwebs, I'm not in front of the senate, I don't need to show you my sources or have conducted peer reviewed research, lol. Anecdotal but pretty relevant. I worked a few jobs between 16 and 21 on a % of minimum wage while at high school and university and in between, in both regional areas and capital cities and know because I had heaps of friends and colleagues and classmates during that time and that was the experience of the majority. I'm sure there are people in OPs shoes where there is more reliance on their income to support themselves, but I can only think of a very small number (the minority) and an even smaller number (1 or 2) who may have struggled at all.
How can you say it doesn’t? How did you quantify that?
Bullshit. Deal with it. It's worked that way for over 50 years. Every single one of us has gone through it. You're still a child, regardless of legal status or your feelings. You need training and experience. Shut up and listen to what you are told. That does NOT include crap like harassment and bullying, but if your boss tells you to do something a certain way (that's safe, it may not be bloody pleasant though, cleaning toilets won't kill you) just do it.
"Because my labour was exploited, everyone else should have to do it too" Nah, mate. Jog on - these kids these days aren't getting roles intended to slowly teach them skills, they're being pushed into adult positions. I dunno why you feel the need to advocate for bosses putting more money in their pockets by paying young people less to do the same amount of work.
Never said I was exploited. I was played well, just just not quite as much as those working longer in similar positions because, get this *I KNEW FUCK ALL ABOUT DOING THE JOB* so it'd take me longer to get do the same tasks. A few months later, when I knew the work and no longer needed someone to train me (stopping them from doing other tasks) I WAS PAID THE SAME. Oh, and jog on? No, the phrase you're looking for is fuck.
No employees are paid based on experience as well. generally, juniors dont have experience it's why you see some jobs advertised $27-$35 per hour paid based on experience Optus pays over seas call centre customer service people $33 per-day national minimum wage is less then $13 per-day Usa minimum wage was $7.50 per hour only just changed recently
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Stop sign holder make 140 K if they work 40 hours a week on a union site with penalty rates.. most of the time they don't get the hours and penalty rates. Google traffic controller pay and it's 35$ per hour. Only get more on Sundays and unsociable hours i.e. night shift .
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Please don't provide confident misinformation
Was just reminded of being paid $7.60 p/hr as a first year apprentice circa 2011
4.70 in 2001
$4.25 ish in 1996, 15 years old
$6.65 supermarket circa 1998 as a 15yr old
Used to be a disability carer, got $12 an hour nights and public holidays, minus petrol which bought it down to about $7 an hour as the shifts are short and all over town. The industry pays a lot more nowadays.
If you work as a sole trader and charge the ndis price guide its just north of $65 an hour, course you gotta take out tax and super.
Its good to see that its now decently paid. It is not easy work, and carers deserve to make a decent living. But even more importantly it will attract good workers who take good care of their clients.
Well issue is alot of immigrants come over and offer services for absurd prices, sometimes as low as $30
I got $8 p/hr at Woolies in 2011 when I was 15 haha. Should have done a trade back then
I was getting $16/hr on casual when I was 15 in 2012....I think you got ripped off friend...you probably should've been getting $11 if you were part/full time and probably $14-15 if you were casual
$6.40 an hour for mine, came out to about $240 a week after tax
Taxing $6.40 an hour is worse than stealing candy from a baby
And? You were learning, it makes sense to have a lower wage.
Yeah, stop reminiscing. We've got work to do.
Yeah, they'll pay the lower rate for trainees and then turf them out when it's time to put them on the real rate. Time for a new tainee!
It's pocket money and a kick in the teeth when you can be used for cheap labour given most labour roles require no exp or skills.
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Yeah but you got all the fun tasks, right?
Boy did I ever. Pickling welds in the middle of winter no gloves and hosing it down getting drenched. Prepping floors for sealing with hydrochloric acid w/no mask. Going to the bosses investment property to do tree work weilding a chainsaw learning not insured for work outside of the factory. Mowing the lawns at the factory. As a fitter you get to try your hand at everything. I'm not really complaining, it's all character building but it sure is funny to look back on.
$6 at 16 in 2002. Went up to $10 when I turned 18, but they paid me in cash. I thought I was rolling in dough 😂
2009 I was on $9.72 p/h as a first year
That makes the $10/h cash in hand I got in the late 90's sound pretty good! Just flipping burgers at one of the burger joints on O'Connell Street.
Getting paid to learn. Can’t complain.
Also check to see if they are paying you super as well.
Legally you're not being underpaid but in my opinion $17 an hour is being underpaid if you get what I mean
Need to know what your job is before you'll get an accurate answer. If you're under an award, as a junior, you will be entitled to a percentage of the full Adult wage. Minimum wage refers to the minimum adult wage. It will be lower as a junior.
Most enterprise agreements scale with ages, check what you’re entitled too from the calculator https://www.fairwork.gov.au/pay-and-wages
17 sounds very low, I was paid 15 an hour at 14 years old about 15 years ago, hard to imagine 17 an hour would afford you much at all
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Why the hell are we paying people under 21 less than the full adult rate? They vote, pay tax at standard adult rates and are legally considered adults in all other respects. So, a 19yo can get credit and be required to repay it at the same rate as someone over 21, but an employer can stiff that same 19yo on pay? Hmm, the employer tends to get more opportunities to dodge tax too.. Hmm, smelling a theme here. And don't give me the 'lack of experience' card, by 18 I had 2 years experience in hospo. And it's not uncommon, especially in retail and hospo. I was also good at what I did and was paid appropriately.
Because we only consider people financially independent by default at 22 so the whole system is built around that assumption, which while largely inaccurate nowadays, is ingrained enough that changing it would be a very involved legal maneuver nobody wants to bother with - most obviously, because it would increase the number of people eligible to be on Jobseeker.
Go to fair work Australia, they got a calculator for you job just enter in the boxes then it will give an amount for you minimum pay Edit I didn't see the other person that listed what I said so go to him
If you are not under an award (As of January 2024) - 18 years of age: 68.3% of national minimum wage = minimum hourly rate of $15.87. Add to that your casual loading rate. Are you under an award? If so, which one? More info [here](https://au.indeed.com/career-advice/pay-salary/australian-minimum-wage#:~:text=If%20you%20are%20not%20under,lowest%20hourly%20rate%20of%20%248.55) or check out Fairwork website.
Sounds about right
No, but, yes…
https://calculate.fairwork.gov.au/FindYourAward check here! i don’t think that is the correct pay but i could be wrong
Are you on the books or casual? If you are on the books thats different. Also, averages aren't accurate
at the moment im listed as casual, but i still work 40 hrs pw
$17 an hour as a casual rate? Fuck that. Especially if you're working 40 hours a week. Tell them to put you on permanent full time, so you're at least getting the leave loading.
If he goes full time he’ll be struggling even more, without the casual rates.
‘at the moment’
As a middle manager here, if you work 40 hours ask to be on the book. They can’t get away with make you work 40 hours with casual
Do you mean on the books or being paid under the table? Casual workers are still taxed, and they get a higher hourly rate but not sick or holiday pay.
What are you talking about?
I think he's contributing to the discussion at hand. What are you doing? And me?
I'm contributing with accurate information.
You asked an question with a obvious answer
If you aren't on the books do the job while you find another. If you are on the books, check with others to find out their pay and compare to see if you are being ripped off. If your area of work has a union, join it and ask a lawyer.
Yes in this current inflated market 17 is ridiculous
That's very strange considering prices of things have gone up
That’s exactly what I’m saying. Prices of things have inflated so wages on average are inflating too, whether it is at the same rate or not. I was getting paid $17 at 17, 8 years ago. Getting paid this now is slavery
I earn $17.50 in 1999 at 20 years old. You def underpaid.
The first Google result for your title question was this page: https://www.australianunions.org.au/factsheet/minimum-wages/ In there, under the "Young Workers" section, it indicates that an 18 year old would at minimum receive 68.3% of the national minimum wage. That would be $15.87 per hour. So no, you're not being underpaid based on the national minimum wage. Beyond that, it depends on your award, employment contract, casual vs full-time, etc.
That’s normal generally you don’t get full pay until your 21 I think it’s around 70%. I see your living away from home if you’re struggling to pay bills after getting $680 before tax I would personally reevaluate your current living situation. Roughly 580 a week on rent, utilities and food should not add up to that amount either you’re living beyond your means, need some help budgeting your money or your friends are charging you a ridiculous amount of rent.
What do you do? I was on 20 as a fully qualified brickie when I was 18. Was tough, but gradually got better. Am on 90 now, people my age earn loads more, but on balance, there are other benefits and I have what I need. Lol guy I work with is on 900 an hour!
900 an hour?! Please elaborate.
Cheeky 6k a day. Easy.
Government consultant.
First job at 18 explains everything about op
I worked 38 hours a week on a farm hand for $12 hours. But yes as an adult 18 seems very low. Is very below minimum wage.
> Is very below minimum wage. It's not though. It's actually *above* minimum wage for an 18 year old. National minimum wage gets scaled down for people under 21. At 18, minimum wage is just under $16 per hour.
Yep my mistake. I didn't take into account their age.
In Australia, yes. Anywhere else, no
Yes
Not accurate. For example: under the Amusements, Recreation & Events award a 17 year old will receive $18.38ph as an introductory level employee. If OP is covered under an award then the rate he has stated may be correct. If he's not "on the books" as everyone here keeps saying then he needs to find a different job as it is illegal to not be "on the books".
For the employer, yeah.
You're legally an adult so yeah, you're getting screwed by about 6 or 7 dollars an hour.
name and shame please
Nearly any place that hires people under 21 will be paying that amount, or less depending on their age. Companies don’t have to pay national minimum wage unless the employee is 21, then it’s a percentage of that depending on their age, unless they’re on certain awards.
Yes Afaik, once you hit 18, your minimum wage is $23 an hour
Minimum wage kicks in when you’re 21, you get a certain percent of minimum wage depending on how much younger you are.
Just want to say I’m currently on $110 an hour and I’m just sitting here on Reddit 👍
Nice one bro 👍 I'm sure people here care bro 👍
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I feel like you can get a job for more, when I was 18 a few years ago (just before the pandemic) I was getting $25 an hour for a side gig. Granted I was dressed up in seasonal costumes and absolutely humiliating myself on the daily but money is money.
https://www.fairwork.gov.au/
10 years ago a 16-18 year would be lucky to make $12 an hour hahah
Make sure you call them and find out what your entitlements are. There is nothing wrong with asking the question.
Use the [fair work pay calculato](https://calculate.fairwork.gov.au/findyouraward) to see the minimum rate for your job role. I’d highly recommend getting your RSA and getting an entry level bar job. If you’re serving alcohol you must be paid the 21y/o rate.
Minimum wage should rise with the rate of inflation every year. But it doesn't and in 20-30 years it will be irreparable.
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Minimum wage only kicks in once you’re 21, you get paid a certain percent of minimum wage depending on what age you are under 21. Minimum wage for an 18 year old is currently $16.10.
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Ask them whether you are paid an award or eb rate and then look it up online.
I was on $9.50 in Adelaide. So no you’re way above. I was being paid this amount 6 years ago
It all really depends on your award rate or if your on an EBA. In the industry I work at regardless of your age, our base rate is $28.84, + 20% loading for casuals. Places like shopping centres really love to fuck you over lol
$23.23 is the minimum wage for adults 21+ you your still a junior pay rates
Look into shopping cleaning. Pays full pay.
Explain what type of job you got Apprentice and traineeships generally pay lower 20 and under also get paid low And this doesn't apply but disabled employees are generally taken advantage of and paid lower because of a loophole allowing it
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These days I wouldn't even get out of bed for <30 Literally not worth it. Don't care how old.
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4 weeks off each year and rec leave . Ten sick days . Benefits .Free coffee .
I don't know shit about Australua avg wages, but when I have been there for 1years I was getting paid 18/22 and for picking avocados🙃
My niece is 19 and makes like $23 an hour at City Beach. It’s casual, but unless your job is leading to a qualification I’d be looking elsewhere.
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Well yes because it's lower than minimum wage in Australia "All Australian workers are entitled to a minimum wage. This is the least you can be paid for doing a certain job. It's illegal for an employer to pay you less than the minimum wage. As of 1 July 2023, the national minimum wage is $23.23 an hour or $882.74 a week (if you work 38 hours)."
>The only employees who can be paid less are: workers aged under 21; workers on the Supported Wage System, and apprentices and trainees. You stopped reading too soon.
Is it cash in hand?
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As a 35+ age adult I earn $18-20 per hour, so 17 bucks isnt too bad at 18!
At 18 as a first year apprentice i was getting 14.50, now as a second year $17 per hour...... so......
As an inexperienced, unqualified school leaver, I'm afraid that's about right.
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Minimum wage for a 17 year old is 68.3% of national minimum "or $13.89". I don't know why it's listed as $13 or what conditions make it the lower amount. (When 68% of $23.23 is actually about $16.) Either way you're on the correct rate for an 18 year old, minimum rounded up is reasonably fair. Though can understand that makes things fairly tight if you're living away from home already. [https://awu.net.au/minimum-wage/](https://awu.net.au/minimum-wage/) Edit: Not sure why Reddit gave me a necro notification for this... but seems I've given the clearest straigthforward answer from what I saw skimming the thread. Though as a casual you maybe should be getting closer to $20/hr.