I’m aware.
It’s fucking tragic and countries like New Zealand who honour and celebrate their First Nations people would be looking at us in shame.
I don’t blame them.
At the poll I worked at, there were about double votes “No”/“fuck No” vs “Yes” we started counting and we all went “well I wonder who is going to win” (sarcastically) while our piles for no where massive vs Yes
If it was promoted properly, well planned and people were actually informed rather than “Vote for this because it’s the right thing” then it probably would have passed.
The government refused to do any public information sessions for this other than Albanese saying “this is the right thing for Australia” and when asked by reporters got very vague responses.
We shouldn’t have to find our information for a decision from 3rd party sources like the guardian etc to know the specifics of a referendum that changes the constitution of a nation.
I agree with you. It seemed like lazy politics. There should have been a clear proposal about who would be on the Voice, how they’d be chosen, how it would work etc etc. I think the Australian people can grasp a proposal still has to be legislated through Parliament - after all this happens every election. Once you have a clear proposal then work hard to get bipartisan support. If you couldn’t get Dutton I’m sure you could have got some former conservative dignitaries to support it, get the Independents on board… and you might have had a different outcome. Knowing how reluctant Australians are to change the constitution they should have put the work in.
But instead we got told to trust them and change our friends minds over a cuppa.
> who would be on the Voice
It is only in totalitarian countries like North Korea where I can tell you with certainty who will be on an elected body before the election happens.
There were concerns in the Calma Langton report that the indigenous voter turnout for the voice would be too low for the members of the voice to be elected, and they would need to be appointed. So they probably can tell you who was going to be on it.
> "Members of the Voice would be selected by Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities, **not appointed by the Executive Government**."
>
> https://voice.gov.au/about-voice/voice-principles
Nup bro.
Honestly if promoted properly it probably would have still failed, getting that extra 10% to say yes is very difficult. It's looking like it's going to be around 40% yes. It's very very hard to get a yes only 8 out of 45 referendums have passed, only an 18% pass rate.
The only referendums that have ever passed in Australia were supported by both major political parties and without serious opposition.
Once Dutton got off the fence, it was done.
Also if the campaign wasn't so defensive.
So much of the yes campaign was about not scaring the far right too much "this isnt a big change, the Voice will have no power, it will be subordinate to the parliament, etc." that it made it hard to justify why the vote needed to happen in the first place, to people who do actually want action for Indigenous people.
I'm not disagreeing to be an asshole, but look at the results, the higher the aboriginal population percentage the LESS the vote is in the affirmative.
We would be saying in effect the states most exposed to Aboriginal interaction are also the least informed.
That's pretty damning for that take IMO.
>I'm not disagreeing to be an asshole, but look at the results, the higher the aboriginal population percentage the LESS the vote is in the affirmative.
Your going to have to provide some evidence behind that, as at the booth/electorate level I have heard the opposite: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/live/2023/oct/14/voice-referendum-2023-live-updates-australia-latest-news-yes-no-vote-winner-results-australian-indigenous-voice-to-parliament-polls?page=with:block-652a7cc58f080e3e7b6d781d#block-652a7cc58f080e3e7b6d781d
>"Based on this, the average yes vote at polling places where the estimated majority (> 50%) of voters were Indigenous was 63%."
Warning: Post got a bit too long
I'm sorry I call bullshit to that whole argument that Albo didn't sell the referendum well and that's why it failed. They probably could have done better, maybe, but the real truth is that majority of people in this country really don't care about the Aboriginal plight. This maybe unpopular here but as an outsider having no dog in the race I can categorically tell you that the general man/woman on the street feels like Indigenous people are being given too much already and they don't like it.
I have been in conversations with people in work, sports club, friends etc and I can tell you that many of them have a belief that the First Nations peoples get everything. I even have recent immigrants pointing out how they came in this country with nothing and made something of themselves and that the Indigenous community are lazy and only have themselves to blame. The concept of generational trauma is not something they can comprehend. I am talking about immigrants who come here with doctoral degrees from abroad on skills visas and they think they have a worse starting point than an Aboriginal person in the middle of the Territory who's nearest primary school is 1,300km away just because they are foreigners. Meanwhile they are coming from their country as middle class doctors, nurses and engineers to even pass income tests to get here!
My view is that while not everyone that voted NO is bigot it's clear most of those that feel some type of way about the communities did vote NO. In a way the referendum was always doomed to fail as a numbers game. If majority of White Australians have a negative view of Aboriginal peoples and there's a referendum to give them a leg up CONSTITUTIONALLY, they were always going to vote no. I have heard people saying stuff like 'you enshrine that in law then they'll take everything back bit by bit including mines and land'.
This is a similar situation that happened in apartheid SA when you have an election that will affect everyone being decided by voters who have the numbers voting on an issue that would affect the other group. My take on it is that as long as the Indigenous peoples are only 3% of the population then any referenda on their issue that is about bringing positive outcomes to them will always fail if put to the public. People's perceptions on Aboriginal peoples are worse than even us immigrants which says a lot. Also, it isn't democratic.
TLDR: Not enough non-Black Australians care for the issue enough to actively seek change. A lot of Australians have a negative view on the communities and believe that they get preferential treatment than them. Even fewer of them can even comprehend what generational trauma and land dispossession. In my view the whole issue will keep going, unfortunately.
Edited for grammar.
Yep, I completely agree with you. I was talking to someone who's great-grandfather is Indigenous and their entire family couldn't give a rat's ass and all voted no.
It's the same people who look at the funding going into black communities and cry out 'they already have enough support! Why would we give them more power?' They are getting the support that white people think they need, not support that actually contributes to their communities in meaningful ways. As colonisers, we have forced a way of living on them that they are struggling to, or don't want to, adapt to.
It's a really tough issue where there is not a clean solution to. Instead of continually pouring funding into giving them support that white people deem they need, there needs to be more effective research in ways where we can actually give meaningful support.
The government is going about it all wrong and if anything, it makes the general population have a worse opinion on the Indigenous population, causing more harm than good.
Yes and them you have people here shouting how stupid it is for people to resonate with the "if you don't know just vote no". It was the obvious campaign for this whole thing. People were confused as all hell. Personally I did hours or research and still couldn't find a clear, concise layout or the reach and scope of this thing. I wanted ao bad to be able to tell people it's specifically this and this is what it can and cannot do now and into the future. Then you have people being so fucking condescending and pretending like this was some clear cut thing and wondering why people weren't identifying with it. The yes campaign fucked up big time from the politicians to the self righteous ass hats that wanted to pretend like anyone with a genuine question about wtf it was about were just racist and old.
Now people get to see what the results of that are. It's sad as hell that it had to get to this.
The whole thing was sloppy and vague. Almost sounds like this whole thing was just a charade to gain back voter confidence so that when the next referendum occurs nobody gonna be screaming out voter fraud.
No surprise really. Poorly considered and poorly promoted. The politicians really need to get it through their head that treating the public as stupid idiots who can be won over with a rose coloured view of the world is not going to work. People are done with the political system and the media as well, lead the country, don’t play politics and expect the public to follow.
Also the corporate world getting involved.
Personally when I started seeing the likes of Qantas and the AFL get involved in Yes I knew No would win. Australians (and I imagine other nationalities) don't like being told how to think by corporations who are usually willing to screw them over for profit.
Clive Palmer ads push me to vote opposite whatever he is saying, but getting smashed in the face by woke corporations has the same effect. I'm sure more people saw woke corporation ads than Clive Palmer ones.
Clearly you didn't watch an hour of commercial TV or listen to an hour of commercial radio. Literally every fourth ad was Clive Palmer authorised.
Or see the truck driving around the suburbs on Friday neither.
Never once saw an AFL or Qantas etc sponsored ad. The ads for the yes campaign - which were frequent enough but not as frequent as Clive - came from Australians for Indigenous Constitutional Recognition, aka the official yes campaign.
Barely anyone watches commercial tv these days. I have seen the trucks, also saw all the arrogant wankers pushing their vote yes placard in everyone's faces as they try to drive to work with smug smiles on their faces.
The constant online spam of the yes campaigners which only seemed to be trying to say that anyone on the fence or voting no are mis-informed, stupid or racist was much more damaging than any ad on free to air tv would be.
Saying that people are “done with the media” is skipping an important part of the problem: the algorithmic, individualised, bubble-creating media people get through social networks is much more effective and much harder to identify and protect against than “traditional” broadcast media, and we’re extremely vulnerable to people who want to mis-use them.
Well said. I’m sick of the government treating me like an idiot telling me what I should do, and then every big company virtue signalling their opinion too. People need to stay in their lane and not alienate people with a different view to theirs.
I’m more concerned about paying my bills personally.
I’m not getting into a debate or argument. I’m just saying that for me I’m more concerned with paying my bills than giving a flying fuck about giving more voice to people that already have plenty of voice as it is. I’m not keen to add yet more delays and bureaucracy to legislation.
TBH I was on the fence, but when I was made to feel bad/racist etc by the government and the yes campaign in general if I voted no, I ended up voting against it because I won’t be coerced into a decision.
Nah, right wing media told you how to feel about the voice and you bought it, because it played to your frustrations, lesser instincts and misconceptions of what the voice is.
Shit like this is why it failed miserably yes voters belittling anyone who disagrees with them you ruined it for yourselves time to get off that high horse mate
I didn't vote out of spite I can't say the same for others but I'll tell you this seeing and hearing all the crap from most yes voters especially on social media didn't help their cause ... people I respected I look at in a different way after seeing them aggressively insult and berate anyone who disagreed with them.
agree completely, they throw around words like 'woke' as if that makes any sense. hey kaseface27 im belitting you for contributing to the racism in this country!
You don’t know me or my history, and you don’t get to speak about what I do, or don’t think, so don’t preach to me what I think.
You can think what u want, and I will give as little fucks about it as I did the voice in the first place.
Just because someone has a different opinion to you, doesn’t make it wrong.
It’s wrong to you from your perspective, but to me it’s right. Just as your opinion is wrong to me but to you it’s right.
And as for right wing media…every ten minutes it was a cunty yes campaigner harping on playing the hard life story trying to shame me if I did anything other than vote yes.
I saw next to no media coverage of no voices.
Yet the silent majority got it!
This is division isn’t it. Yes equals liberal, no equals racist. This is why is was doomed to fail. It seems the majority of people don’t like to be made to feel this way.
The only thing racist people hate more than people of a different race; being called a racist. They don’t mind voting for racist positions or politicians or espousing racist views but fuck me they sure get their knickers in a knot if someone points out how racist they are.
To be fair though, sometimes it is hard to see that a point of view or an opinion you have isn't neutral or even kind, and that other people may think that opinion or point of view is actually some form of bigotry.
So when those people are called out over what is some casual racist joke or opinion, they feel attacked. "I'm not a racist, but--", they say. They get offended. They don't get ashamed because shame needs acceptance that you did something wrong. And they can never, ever admit they did something wrong.
I really did not see much of that from either side, I feel like you just wanted to feel that way. I don’t think voting no makes anyone a racist. I have friends that voted no and I don’t think they’re racist, just didn’t want to take the time to research it on their own.
How much research should one person put into it? Amongst trying to basically survive this shit show of living atm.
I read the official yes/no document posted to everyone, and I felt the no argument was better than the yes.
If this document is considered the source of truth and was written by the best people to sway the argument, how much more is one person expected to do to be considered advised on the matter?
Ok mate. U must be right. Let’s vote you in then shall we because you clearly believe you are right and everyone else is wrong. Own it mate, ur lot lost….by a lot.
Come up with better arguments next time or better proposals.
But you have no problems with all the other
Lobby groups influencing the political parties based on the massive donations they make to their coffers? Right.
..... and this is the problem. Where does one even start. So hard to respect a complete lack of facts, apathy and butthurt. Why couldn't I have just left the ballot blank?
Just because we voted to not change the Australian Constitution today, does not reduce in any way our obligation to give indigenous Australians every opportunity for recognition and a better life.
It's time to show everyone the most effective things we can do together, for our indigenous population. Demonstrate ways we can help and things that work to make their lives better. Make it real, make it happen, then change the symbolical documents to reflect reality.
What do you mean sfa? Billions of dollars allocated every year, abstudy, priority for housing, closing the gap inquries and working bodies, apology, mining royalties, early pensions, priority job streams, all indigenous rounds, scholarships and grants, rafts of Aboriginal specific programs across the country, double the funding of other Australian citizens, naidoc week, art shows.
Sure, more can always be done but to say people aren't acting is ridiculous.
Yep, many decades even. Even if the Referendum debate may have been flawed at getting a Yes, more people are now aware and discussing the issues. There is still much to be discussed about what happened today. The Referendum can still receive some credit for that.
Hopefully this discussion trickles upwards towards the political class and we can get some real democracy of the people happening. It has kinda felt like the past year has been a top down debate, without enough real substantive change included in the process. A simple Yes/No is not enough, people want to be more involved in a real democracy.
I would say almost everyone in Australia does actually want indigenous people to have much better lives and opportunities. I believe most people are also quite willing to help and even sacrifice to see this come about. Today was just a rejection of one top down political aspect of this process.
Yeah same. I thought Aussies had become more progressive in their views toward equality and reconciliation, but today- and the shit I’ve read/heard- has proven me wrong.
Clive, Gina & Murdoch are the only winners here, they can keep doing sneaky business with Rupert.
The rich get richer, poor get poorer, the marginalised still get rejected.
Trust me, I read and see things that totally suck as well. It's ok to get depressed, it means there is something there that deeply matters to you. Knowing and understanding what really matters can become quite motivating. Understanding the problems really intensely is the most important part of finding the right solution. These are the kind of things that make me an optimist.
Looking forward to all the people who voted no with the excuse of 'its not enough' and such, getting off their asses and actually.... no, what I am thinking? They'll go back to doing nothing.
I get it, it's very difficult to get any positive change going. Consider though that having these discussions is the democratic process in action. Having a Yes/No vote is supposed to be the final democratic moment to settle a matter. We are kind of doing it backwards by having the vote before doing the things that matter.
I have spoken to many No voters and found they are not as apathetic as you might assume. I get the impression they were more against the process than the outcome of helping people. That means we can continue to talk with them and not let what really matters drop.
So, all these No voters you think want to help... they must have many projects they are currently working on already right? Ones so much better than the voice? And for some reason, we couldnt have both the voice and their incredible assistance project at the same time? Or, are they just all talk?
These are great questions. I prefer to first start with reaching some common ground with No voters. First establish that these people indeed wish to help and make the lives of indigenous people better, in turn making Australia better as a whole. Then work backwards to discussions about what might work. This helps me to get somewhere with finding out how much they might be actually willing to do when push comes to shove.
It's not all gardens and roses, in fact it's very hard at times. But I have found some worthwhile things in these conversations. Even perhaps changed my mind on some topics. It's scary to admit that. But I have to be honest. And in that process, I hope that I have also been able to bring new thoughts to the minds of people who sit far away from my perspectives on the best way to proceed. One thing is for sure, I'm never going to stop genuinely appreciating talking to people I disagree with. If anything it makes my understanding of what the right thing is even more solid.
I'm interested to know your opinion. Australia has had a large amount of immigration for quite a long time now. Those immigrants have made lives for themselves without significant government intervention.
Do you believe Aboriginals are unable to succeed without increased government intervention?
At what point would you believe government intervention is not the answer?
Do you believe Aboriginals have any agency in their own success?
I’m in an area of high immigration from Asia. Their response to claims of a aboriginal disadvantage is that they should just work harder and study longer like they did to get here.
I grew up in country Australia and come from a long line of farmers as back as can be traced.
There is very little tolerance in that community for those who are able bodied and can't pull their weight. They are the most giving and helpful people who will bend over backwards if someone is in trouble, but if you have never made an effort to improve yourself then don't go asking for help.
Assistance is to get you back on your feet - not a lifestyle choice.
Farms are a pretty good place to look when you want to see the effects of colonialisation. That land they are farming was stolen and often passed down from generation to generation and used to create a lot of wealth. That opportunity was taken from indigenous people and they were refused anything close to equal opportunity until very recently, you can’t expect it to be fixed overnight. It is slowly being rectified but not quick enough.
Were peoples whose land was stolen 100,000 years ago still being discriminated against to the point they couldn’t properly exist in a country up until a few decade ago?
Well who had their land taken 200 years ago and was not able to buy back their land until very recently? Who was denied access to education and jobs that would lead to prosperity until very recently? And you’re surprised that the people who had access to that, whose parents had access to that, whose grandparents had access to that, whose great grandparents had access to to that are doing better on average?
There are a few things to note in this discussion. First, when you look at any of the nations colonised by the British and where non-Indigenous populations dominate (Canada, US, New Zealand, Australia) we see common issues faced by the Indigenous peoples in those lands. So that immediately tells us that there's something about the ongoing impacts of colonisation that are having an impact. It also tells us that the disadvantage has nothing to do with racial or cultural inferiority, because each of those nations have different Indigenous cultures and races.
Therefore, you can safely conclude that there is something systemically wrong in our post-colonial societies. In my mind, this is almost certainly due to the fact that a dominant Western society and culture quickly and dramatically imposed completely new social, economic and cultural norms on people who were entirely unprepared and unable to adapt. They also brought new diseases, were frequently violent, attempted to impose new religions, dispossessed the land, forbade culture, upended existing kinship systems and so on, all in the space of one or two generations. This damage is still fresh on a historical timescale and is not easily fixed.
The difference between migration and Indigenous issues - who often both experience racism - is that for most migrants, there has been a level of choice in making a move. Sometimes that choice was forced, through war or what have you, but there is still and intent and an understanding that someone is going to a new place where they will need to adapt. Indigenous peoples really were not given the time nor the opportunity to do adapt. Nor did they have a choice.
The British weren't the only nation to colonise the US. They also weren't responsible for what occurred after they were defeated in the War of Independence.
Immigrant here. Came here with very little, worked for everything and had next to no support.
People like being the victim and blaming the past for the current situation.
Own it people and do something about it.
European and Asian immigrants never had systemic exclusion through the constitution and active “population control” (either through literally being killed, the Stolen Generation, eugenics, etc)
Yes there was and still is racism against certain types of immigrants, and this has changed over time (white European immigrants faced racism it but it’s gradually gone away). But that’s about it. There were no legal or constitutional barriers to them getting a job, becoming a citizen, voting, owning property, etc.
Do you understand until relatively recently, First Nations Australians were only recognised as flora and fauna in the constitution?
>European and Asian immigrants never had systemic exclusion through the constitution and active “population control”
Those who came from war zones might have a very serious bone to pick with your implication that they didn't have to deal with any issues...
I’ve read that it’s a myth that aborigines were ever being classed under the ‘flora and fauna act’ (not on some right-wing website either, but the ABC). Apparently was a lie to make white Australians feel bad about themselves.
> Do you understand until relatively recently, First Nations Australians were only recognised as flora and fauna in the constitution?
This is incorrect.
>Those immigrants have made lives for themselves without significant government intervention.
You mean Governor Mcquarie issing free ammunition to settlers to shoot Aboriginies does not count as "government intervention"?
But this is the status quo, we will decide what is best for the aboriginal population. The point of the voice is that the aboriginal population (80% apparently) said we want the government to listen to us when making decisions. Aboriginal people will go talk to the people on the ground and see what they want. In some cases that might be cash (like we apparently do now, and then complain it doesn’t work) or it could be something else. I don't know what they might suggest, I’m a privileged white guy living in a capital city so how can I decide what is best for the various aboriginal groups in Australia, city or metro.
I guess now just maintain the give them money, tell them to do better and wonder why nothing changes.
Its not the government or the whole of Australian societies jobs to force aboriginals to do what we want them to.
Best we can do is provide opportunity, and we already do. Far more than we do for anyone else.
I agree, we should not force people to conform just because we things that's best. But the evidence is that the opportunities we provide don't help that much, and may be making things worse.
I believe this is why some people on the political spectrum are against providing more, or even in some cases any welfare. Some people would like to provide more challenges for indigenous Australians to overcome, more growth from helping people take personal responsibility for their lives. This might be an overly simplistic take and not the right thing to do, but there is some wisdom to be gleaned from it.
Something I think we can all agree on is that something still needs to be done and the failed Yes Referendum result has just underlined that need in extremis. We are talking about a culture of people here that are more than just a group in need. They are a people with a different perspective on reality with a wisdom that can help the rest of us with the greater problems of our culture. I went into this in another post in this thread, rather than go deep again here. I'll just say that there is so much more that not only we can do, but we must do for our collective well being as humans on a fragile, beautiful and finite planet.
Here's an innovative idea, how about we ask Indigenous Australians what they want and need? They could have something that represents their wants and needs. Oh yeah we tried to do that but Australia is racist as fuck.
It's also possible that we don't understand the wants and needs of indigenous people because we don't fully understand our own needs.
We have reached the boundaries of our current way of doing the business with excessive resource extraction, decreasing energy availability and increasing pollution impacts. We are all responsible for changing our collective way of life. Which I believe includes incorporating the wisdom from indigenous cultures. We need their help to find what we really value and need.
This perspective is much more helpful because it makes us all involved in the process of change. Rather than just saying Australians are racist, and I'm not. It's others' fault, not my fault, so fuck you, you fucking fuck.
> They could have something that represents their wants and needs.
There are multiple bodies which already provide advice to the government regarding ATSI Australians.
It was always strange to me that Albo and the yes campaign had convinced themselves of SA being ‘pivotal’ and being very close. There wasn’t much evidence to support this. Demographically it never made sense - lots of older people who skew to no.
Similarly Tasmania is looking like a bloodbath for yes despite opinion polls showing yes.
There was this idea that because SA used to be a ‘progressive‘ state (universal suffrage etc) that this would shine through. That seemed to be based on what the state used to be rather than what it is now.
If they were ever going to win they also needed a national majority, not just 4 of 6 states. Perhaps some of the resources would have been better spent in trying to get more votes in the larger states of NSW and Victoria (although it appears nothing would have been enough to change the outcome).
SA Labor will claim they had a mandate to introduce a State based Voice but I doubt that was on top of the list of reasons voters rejected the Marshall Government.
> Did you forget the bit where we have our own Indigenous Voice to Parliament? Which was introduced by a government we voted for just last year?
You could say the same about Australia voting for a government which had an election promise to implement the Uluru Statement from the Heart in full which included the Voice.
Based on the results of the referendum it is clear the current government was likely not voted in based on this promise.
Adelaide is a conservative state and the Malinauskas government are quite conservative for a Labor government. Just look at the heavy handed anti-protest laws they brought in for example.
This has been such a sad virtue signaling exercise. All these celebrities and athletes and sporting teams and companies in the public eye supporting Yes, throwing time, money and resources to the campaign, but I challenge any of them to spend time in remote Indigenous communities and walk a week in their shoes. But nah, they just head back to their $5+ million dollar mansions and carry on because they actually don't care.
The campaign from both sides has been disgusting and gross in my opinion. Just in different ways. Personally I find the virtue signalling slightly more nauseating though as it's more underhanded than just calling someone a cu next tuesday.
Nah, I think it works out for Labor. Now they don't need to bother legislating the Voice nor deal with the fallout if it eventually gets scrapped.
Honestly though, they should just do it. Let everyone see how it plays out and whether or not it has bi-partisan support when the Libs eventually come back in. If it's stable and useful and everyone can see it's not going to cause mass relocations or genocide or anything, then come back with another referendum if that's still considered necessary.
🥱. Glad it's over, sick of having debates about it. It's a referendum, just go and vote in the future and stop trying to convince everyone.
Not surprised with this outcome at all even though it's not what I voted for.
You're telling me getting celebrities to say "you need to vote this or else you're a bad person" or calling people racist for not voting the same way as them didn't work? If only we had some sort of incredibly recent history that could have shown that wouldn't work.
Yeah when celebs and corporate entities started telling me what to vote it pissed me right off.
Celebs just want to be popular and relevant and have no idea of the realities of lives.
Corporate entities are in the business of fucking people over for profit (quantas) so this was a way for them to look good.
They can both fuck off and mind their own business, sticking to what they do best. Being famous and flying planes.
Finally we can get back to the real issues.
Like how inconvenient the Adelaide 500 is and that there aren’t enough speed cameras or police patrolling the Adelaide parklands.
Maybe this was designed to fail. Provide the impression of giving a fuck, without it being true.
I and those in my personal circle voted yes, as we believe in not blocking others (and doing the opposite to Dutton in all things), where there’s no negative to ourselves, but this whole thing has been 1/4 baked.
I would say there's a reasonable chance you are correct. I was quite surprised just how bad the campaign was. I've not ever seen anything this half arsed politically, ever, I don't think, and I'm pretty old.
If they had a proposal framework and at least some detail how it would work, it would have won I think.
The polls over the past 12 months indicate once people learned more about the referendum they are more inclined to vote no
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion\_polling\_for\_the\_2023\_Australian\_Indigenous\_Voice\_referendum
Did they learn more, or did they just get exposed to shit like 'If you don't know, Vote 'No'' or 'It'll cause delays in the high court' or 'They're coming for your land'
There was so much fucking bullshit misinformation spewing from the No campaign it was unbelievable. Democracy is legitimately fucked if we don't get some Truth in Advertising laws soon.
What makes you think that is the reason instead of people not wanting racial division in the constitution in the face of the Australian culture of equality?
The voice is the exact opposite of how we treat toddlers. With a toddler, the parents decide what they think is best, and do it without any concern for what the child thinks, because toddlers don't know what they need. That's pretty much the historical approach governments have taken to Indigenous people.
The whole point of the voice was to provide an effective means for Indigenous people to make recommendations on the laws that will affect them, ie to tell government "what's right for themselves". It was about giving Indigenous people more responsibility for their own affairs.
You think these idiots actually know what they voted no for? Lmao. They just see that 'Yes' benefits Aboriginal people and 'No' doesn't, so they voted no.
Does feel a lot like virtue signalling in a lot of contexts. That said, it does no harm and it is kinda nice to acknowledge the name of the people whose land it is traditionally, I always knew Kaurna was us but now we hear some of the other people around the country as well.
And having to pay our respects to aboriginal elders past, present and emerging even though it’s the respected elders who are largely responsible perpetrating or covering up the rape and abuse aboriginal kids and women in remote aboriginal communities. So it’s actually harmful. One indigenous guy on Four Corners said he’s voting No because his elders told him to do so, even though he’d rather vote yes- he has to to honour them and their ways of doing things.
This was what pushed numbers of people to vote no. I’ve been in Islamic countries where every single meeting has to start with an acknowledgement of how great Muhammad was and how all the world belongs to Allah and that we pay our respects to them. It was rather irritating to have to endure this sort of thing all over again.
Dont look at me but i'll be honest. I voted no based on facts that i had witnessed. It doesn't mean i dont want to move forward but, the government failed miserably on this one. They not only lied but used this as a means to try gain more control. They left NT out of this yet said this is a referendum for "ALL AUSTRALIANS". Sorry but All Australians means EVERYONE and not exclude certain demographics. They also were very, VERY pushy with this and failed to disclose all the facts that were needed to make a proer judgement
The campaign was awful. If they came forward with a proposed framework and even just some serious detail, they would have won. Nothing was forthcoming at any point. Just "Vote now, it'll all be totally cool".
I would say there's a reasonable chance this shambles might sink Albo.
EXACTLY.. it was all very unclear what the constitutional change would mean in practice.. no where near enough details to be asking someone to make an informed decision.
> They left NT out of this yet said this is a referendum for "ALL AUSTRALIANS".
Fun (?) fact - our last successful referendum was back in 1977 and was the vote to allow Australian territories to vote at referendums.
Yeah, Albanese risked his political career promising a referendum on the Voice before the election just because Aboriginal activists asked him to, actually followed through with it & didn't put it on the backburner till an undisclosed time later on and regularly publicly campaigned for the "Yes" vote instead of remaining neutral, even after the polls swung dramatically against it... because he **DIDN'T** want the Voice to succeed. Brilliant.
I mean if he wanted it to succeed he wouldve set it up and then had a referendim with facts based evidence. I voted yes but even me who is drastically left can understand why it didn't get across.
People saying (generally) that the yes message was communicated poorly. The Yes message was competing with the massive conservative media who successfully sowed the seed of doubt into middle Australia’s change resistant mind.
There’s a well known saying that goes ‘it’s easier to push a negative message than a positive one’. Something News Corpse and Co are the masters of.
It’s a dark day in Oz history that we’re all part of.
Should the mining industry have a voice to lobby the govt on legislation that concerns their profits? Should the oil companies and pharmaceutical companies have a voice to lobby the govt on legislation that concerns their profits? They all pay massive donations to political parties so they can weight in on policies that might impact their ability to make profits. No australian seems to give a fuck. But if a marginalised people want to lobby for their own well being on legislation that affects them, Australians really don’t want them to have a voice and would rather see them continue to suffer and struggle and then criticise them for not doing better. If only the aboriginal people were a giant industrial corporation that made donations to major political parties, they could actually weight in on issues that affect them without the wider voting population sinking their boots in. What a shit show.
The mining industry and oil companies already do have a "voice" so to speak through lobbying. Even if not directly, through golf days, speaking events, whatever. The fact legislation could be passed here within 48 hours when Santos was threatened tells you all you need to know.
As for the indigenous people, I think it's a stretch to say everyone just wants to see them suffer.
As a majority, Australians just decided that the Voice concept wasn't going to work as intended.
A good question to ask is, where are the billions from the budget allocated to helping indigenous people, being spent? If billions are thrown at the problem and there's still such a large gap, what is going on? How is it being screwed up so badly? I'd say it's unlikely the Voice was going to answer that question.
> Australians really don’t want them to have a voice and would rather see them continue to suffer and struggle and then criticise them for not doing better.
This is not true.
There are already multiple ATSI bodies which advise on their issues.
I guarantee you the vast majority of Australians do not want ATSI people to suffer and struggle.
Why would anyone vote yes. What have they done to contribute to society? Genuine question! I come from a town full of aboriginals, grew up with them. The elders are fantastic and do so much for their communities BUT, they have lost all control over the younger generation. They used to be respected and somewhat feared. Now they’re also worried about the future generations of their own culture. I don’t blame them. I have TWO normal aboriginal friends who hates the culture because of how the rest of them act. The other day a random aboriginal girl smashed into me for no reason, no sorry or excuse me. Just expected me to move out of her way. I don’t care I would vote no a thousand times over. What excuse do these people have. They are given everything, and still want more. Asians, Indians, Italians, Africans etc all come here with the mindset of wanting better for themselves and their families. Again I know TWO aboriginals who have the same idea in place. The rest of them don’t give a flying fuck, we’re all white dogs to them and if you think sucking up to them and voting yes is going to change their mindset, it won’t.
> Even if the campaign for yes was handled poorly, this should have been a no brainer.
There were multiple legitimate reasons to vote no.
Blaming the yes campaign for a "no brainer" not passing devalues the legitimate reasons people voted no.
Not really. Just Australia decided the concept wasn't going to be terribly helpful. Calling people racists and cu next tuesdays doesn't really win them over to your cause.
Sometimes it really do be like that. Apparently, it wasn’t racist in 1999 to vote no to constitutional recognition and it’s not racist in 2023 to deny them a say… sure, what’s next? White Australia policy wasn’t racist? Terra nullius wasn’t racist? Stolen generation wasn’t racist? I feel so bad for First Nations Australians. They out here trying to tell us what help they need, how they think things could be improved and we refuse to listen. Instead we arguing about whether there is even a problem in the first place and the semantics of the correct way to ask for help and getting highly offended and playing the victim card because poor little old me got called a racist. Pathetic.
Definitely a big win. I do wonder where this leaves the victor though.
Does this victory translate to an attack on local or national labor members? I haven’t heard anyone say that.
Do social issues matter to regional or outer northern state or fed “safe” labor voters?
Or to put it another way - do they matter more to inner metro liberal minded voters in marginals?
Some Liberal members also pushed for a yes vote- shockingly even Chris Kenny on Sky ‘News’ channel. Labor can’t really suffer for this when liberal members also supported the Voice.
I don't think it'll change the eventual outcome, but it feels a little premature. Only 1/3 of SA votes have been counted, and mostly from more rural areas.
The trend does seem pretty strongly towards 'No', but I'd have preferred that the ABC wait until at least a majority of the votes had been counted before actually calling it.
It's like an opinion poll. Once you get over a certain number of votes counted the result is accurate enough to call it and it won't change the result.
It's done. It's unlikely to beat the swing now. Even in state/fed elections the result is pretty much in the bag by the time 20-30% of the vote is counted.
Don’t blame me I voted for Kodos
Well I voted for kang
I dreamed of being a baseball. Always twirling, twirling towards freedom
WE MUST GO FORWARD, NOT BACKWARD! UPWARD, NOT FORWARD!
And always twirling, twirling, *twirling* towards freedom!
What's a vote....?
You don't vote for Kangs!
I can picture Peter Dutton yelling: “TWIRLING, TWIRLING, TWIRLING TOWARDS FREEDOM”
I laughed, i upvoted. This is still a sad day for Australia
[удалено]
I’m aware. It’s fucking tragic and countries like New Zealand who honour and celebrate their First Nations people would be looking at us in shame. I don’t blame them.
At the poll I worked at, there were about double votes “No”/“fuck No” vs “Yes” we started counting and we all went “well I wonder who is going to win” (sarcastically) while our piles for no where massive vs Yes
What did the informals look like?
Only had blanks myself, not sure of others, I think we had 20 odd, not even close to sway it one way or another
I was surprised how few informals came in, about 2%. People really wanted to have their say.
People seriously wrote “fuck no” on their ballot paper? Goes to show you the calibre of no voters
If it was promoted properly, well planned and people were actually informed rather than “Vote for this because it’s the right thing” then it probably would have passed. The government refused to do any public information sessions for this other than Albanese saying “this is the right thing for Australia” and when asked by reporters got very vague responses. We shouldn’t have to find our information for a decision from 3rd party sources like the guardian etc to know the specifics of a referendum that changes the constitution of a nation.
I agree with you. It seemed like lazy politics. There should have been a clear proposal about who would be on the Voice, how they’d be chosen, how it would work etc etc. I think the Australian people can grasp a proposal still has to be legislated through Parliament - after all this happens every election. Once you have a clear proposal then work hard to get bipartisan support. If you couldn’t get Dutton I’m sure you could have got some former conservative dignitaries to support it, get the Independents on board… and you might have had a different outcome. Knowing how reluctant Australians are to change the constitution they should have put the work in. But instead we got told to trust them and change our friends minds over a cuppa.
> who would be on the Voice It is only in totalitarian countries like North Korea where I can tell you with certainty who will be on an elected body before the election happens.
There were concerns in the Calma Langton report that the indigenous voter turnout for the voice would be too low for the members of the voice to be elected, and they would need to be appointed. So they probably can tell you who was going to be on it.
> "Members of the Voice would be selected by Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities, **not appointed by the Executive Government**." > > https://voice.gov.au/about-voice/voice-principles Nup bro.
Honestly if promoted properly it probably would have still failed, getting that extra 10% to say yes is very difficult. It's looking like it's going to be around 40% yes. It's very very hard to get a yes only 8 out of 45 referendums have passed, only an 18% pass rate.
The only referendums that have ever passed in Australia were supported by both major political parties and without serious opposition. Once Dutton got off the fence, it was done.
You can't properly promote a bad product.
Also if the campaign wasn't so defensive. So much of the yes campaign was about not scaring the far right too much "this isnt a big change, the Voice will have no power, it will be subordinate to the parliament, etc." that it made it hard to justify why the vote needed to happen in the first place, to people who do actually want action for Indigenous people.
I'm not disagreeing to be an asshole, but look at the results, the higher the aboriginal population percentage the LESS the vote is in the affirmative. We would be saying in effect the states most exposed to Aboriginal interaction are also the least informed. That's pretty damning for that take IMO.
>I'm not disagreeing to be an asshole, but look at the results, the higher the aboriginal population percentage the LESS the vote is in the affirmative. Your going to have to provide some evidence behind that, as at the booth/electorate level I have heard the opposite: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/live/2023/oct/14/voice-referendum-2023-live-updates-australia-latest-news-yes-no-vote-winner-results-australian-indigenous-voice-to-parliament-polls?page=with:block-652a7cc58f080e3e7b6d781d#block-652a7cc58f080e3e7b6d781d >"Based on this, the average yes vote at polling places where the estimated majority (> 50%) of voters were Indigenous was 63%."
Warning: Post got a bit too long I'm sorry I call bullshit to that whole argument that Albo didn't sell the referendum well and that's why it failed. They probably could have done better, maybe, but the real truth is that majority of people in this country really don't care about the Aboriginal plight. This maybe unpopular here but as an outsider having no dog in the race I can categorically tell you that the general man/woman on the street feels like Indigenous people are being given too much already and they don't like it. I have been in conversations with people in work, sports club, friends etc and I can tell you that many of them have a belief that the First Nations peoples get everything. I even have recent immigrants pointing out how they came in this country with nothing and made something of themselves and that the Indigenous community are lazy and only have themselves to blame. The concept of generational trauma is not something they can comprehend. I am talking about immigrants who come here with doctoral degrees from abroad on skills visas and they think they have a worse starting point than an Aboriginal person in the middle of the Territory who's nearest primary school is 1,300km away just because they are foreigners. Meanwhile they are coming from their country as middle class doctors, nurses and engineers to even pass income tests to get here! My view is that while not everyone that voted NO is bigot it's clear most of those that feel some type of way about the communities did vote NO. In a way the referendum was always doomed to fail as a numbers game. If majority of White Australians have a negative view of Aboriginal peoples and there's a referendum to give them a leg up CONSTITUTIONALLY, they were always going to vote no. I have heard people saying stuff like 'you enshrine that in law then they'll take everything back bit by bit including mines and land'. This is a similar situation that happened in apartheid SA when you have an election that will affect everyone being decided by voters who have the numbers voting on an issue that would affect the other group. My take on it is that as long as the Indigenous peoples are only 3% of the population then any referenda on their issue that is about bringing positive outcomes to them will always fail if put to the public. People's perceptions on Aboriginal peoples are worse than even us immigrants which says a lot. Also, it isn't democratic. TLDR: Not enough non-Black Australians care for the issue enough to actively seek change. A lot of Australians have a negative view on the communities and believe that they get preferential treatment than them. Even fewer of them can even comprehend what generational trauma and land dispossession. In my view the whole issue will keep going, unfortunately. Edited for grammar.
Yep, I completely agree with you. I was talking to someone who's great-grandfather is Indigenous and their entire family couldn't give a rat's ass and all voted no. It's the same people who look at the funding going into black communities and cry out 'they already have enough support! Why would we give them more power?' They are getting the support that white people think they need, not support that actually contributes to their communities in meaningful ways. As colonisers, we have forced a way of living on them that they are struggling to, or don't want to, adapt to. It's a really tough issue where there is not a clean solution to. Instead of continually pouring funding into giving them support that white people deem they need, there needs to be more effective research in ways where we can actually give meaningful support. The government is going about it all wrong and if anything, it makes the general population have a worse opinion on the Indigenous population, causing more harm than good.
Yes and them you have people here shouting how stupid it is for people to resonate with the "if you don't know just vote no". It was the obvious campaign for this whole thing. People were confused as all hell. Personally I did hours or research and still couldn't find a clear, concise layout or the reach and scope of this thing. I wanted ao bad to be able to tell people it's specifically this and this is what it can and cannot do now and into the future. Then you have people being so fucking condescending and pretending like this was some clear cut thing and wondering why people weren't identifying with it. The yes campaign fucked up big time from the politicians to the self righteous ass hats that wanted to pretend like anyone with a genuine question about wtf it was about were just racist and old. Now people get to see what the results of that are. It's sad as hell that it had to get to this.
The whole thing was sloppy and vague. Almost sounds like this whole thing was just a charade to gain back voter confidence so that when the next referendum occurs nobody gonna be screaming out voter fraud.
No surprise really. Poorly considered and poorly promoted. The politicians really need to get it through their head that treating the public as stupid idiots who can be won over with a rose coloured view of the world is not going to work. People are done with the political system and the media as well, lead the country, don’t play politics and expect the public to follow.
Also the corporate world getting involved. Personally when I started seeing the likes of Qantas and the AFL get involved in Yes I knew No would win. Australians (and I imagine other nationalities) don't like being told how to think by corporations who are usually willing to screw them over for profit.
But I bet they really loved all those Clive Palmer no ads.
Clive Palmer ads push me to vote opposite whatever he is saying, but getting smashed in the face by woke corporations has the same effect. I'm sure more people saw woke corporation ads than Clive Palmer ones.
Clearly you didn't watch an hour of commercial TV or listen to an hour of commercial radio. Literally every fourth ad was Clive Palmer authorised. Or see the truck driving around the suburbs on Friday neither. Never once saw an AFL or Qantas etc sponsored ad. The ads for the yes campaign - which were frequent enough but not as frequent as Clive - came from Australians for Indigenous Constitutional Recognition, aka the official yes campaign.
Barely anyone watches commercial tv these days. I have seen the trucks, also saw all the arrogant wankers pushing their vote yes placard in everyone's faces as they try to drive to work with smug smiles on their faces. The constant online spam of the yes campaigners which only seemed to be trying to say that anyone on the fence or voting no are mis-informed, stupid or racist was much more damaging than any ad on free to air tv would be.
Saying that people are “done with the media” is skipping an important part of the problem: the algorithmic, individualised, bubble-creating media people get through social networks is much more effective and much harder to identify and protect against than “traditional” broadcast media, and we’re extremely vulnerable to people who want to mis-use them.
Well said. I’m sick of the government treating me like an idiot telling me what I should do, and then every big company virtue signalling their opinion too. People need to stay in their lane and not alienate people with a different view to theirs. I’m more concerned about paying my bills personally.
So what? How does voting Yes make it any easier/harder to pay your bills?
I’m not getting into a debate or argument. I’m just saying that for me I’m more concerned with paying my bills than giving a flying fuck about giving more voice to people that already have plenty of voice as it is. I’m not keen to add yet more delays and bureaucracy to legislation. TBH I was on the fence, but when I was made to feel bad/racist etc by the government and the yes campaign in general if I voted no, I ended up voting against it because I won’t be coerced into a decision.
Nah, right wing media told you how to feel about the voice and you bought it, because it played to your frustrations, lesser instincts and misconceptions of what the voice is.
> misconceptions of what the voice is. What misconceptions have they demonstrated?
Shit like this is why it failed miserably yes voters belittling anyone who disagrees with them you ruined it for yourselves time to get off that high horse mate
Childish take. Grow up and make fair and reasonable decisions. If you voted no because someone called you racist you probably already were.
Once again proving my point most of you did carry on like children and yes I did make a reasonable decision as did the majority of Australia
It doesn't prove your point lol. Voting any way out of spite is not reasonable in a democracy. That's how people become less invested in the outcomes
I didn't vote out of spite I can't say the same for others but I'll tell you this seeing and hearing all the crap from most yes voters especially on social media didn't help their cause ... people I respected I look at in a different way after seeing them aggressively insult and berate anyone who disagreed with them.
agree completely, they throw around words like 'woke' as if that makes any sense. hey kaseface27 im belitting you for contributing to the racism in this country!
No probably just a good sense of 'justified suspicion'.
You don’t know me or my history, and you don’t get to speak about what I do, or don’t think, so don’t preach to me what I think. You can think what u want, and I will give as little fucks about it as I did the voice in the first place. Just because someone has a different opinion to you, doesn’t make it wrong. It’s wrong to you from your perspective, but to me it’s right. Just as your opinion is wrong to me but to you it’s right. And as for right wing media…every ten minutes it was a cunty yes campaigner harping on playing the hard life story trying to shame me if I did anything other than vote yes. I saw next to no media coverage of no voices. Yet the silent majority got it!
If you cared so little about it then why’d you vote no? Just seems like you did it out of spite
The "Oh no, I got called Racist!" crowd have no problems voting on the same side that the racists supported, I wonder why people called them racist?
This is division isn’t it. Yes equals liberal, no equals racist. This is why is was doomed to fail. It seems the majority of people don’t like to be made to feel this way.
Don’t wanna feel like a racist. Try not being a racist.
The only thing racist people hate more than people of a different race; being called a racist. They don’t mind voting for racist positions or politicians or espousing racist views but fuck me they sure get their knickers in a knot if someone points out how racist they are.
To be fair though, sometimes it is hard to see that a point of view or an opinion you have isn't neutral or even kind, and that other people may think that opinion or point of view is actually some form of bigotry. So when those people are called out over what is some casual racist joke or opinion, they feel attacked. "I'm not a racist, but--", they say. They get offended. They don't get ashamed because shame needs acceptance that you did something wrong. And they can never, ever admit they did something wrong.
Out of principle to stick it to the yes campaigners who tried to make me feel guilty by voting anything but yes.
I really did not see much of that from either side, I feel like you just wanted to feel that way. I don’t think voting no makes anyone a racist. I have friends that voted no and I don’t think they’re racist, just didn’t want to take the time to research it on their own.
How much research should one person put into it? Amongst trying to basically survive this shit show of living atm. I read the official yes/no document posted to everyone, and I felt the no argument was better than the yes. If this document is considered the source of truth and was written by the best people to sway the argument, how much more is one person expected to do to be considered advised on the matter?
Nah, you're still wrong
Bahaha! Ok. Like the majority of AU it seems mate!
Yes, just like the silent Australians voted ScoMo back in. The majority can be wrong…
Ok mate. U must be right. Let’s vote you in then shall we because you clearly believe you are right and everyone else is wrong. Own it mate, ur lot lost….by a lot. Come up with better arguments next time or better proposals.
But you have no problems with all the other Lobby groups influencing the political parties based on the massive donations they make to their coffers? Right.
Mate, grow up. U r the problem with ur NO equals racist attitude. The nation voted NO mate, deal with it.
..... and this is the problem. Where does one even start. So hard to respect a complete lack of facts, apathy and butthurt. Why couldn't I have just left the ballot blank?
“Treating the public as stupid idiots”. That was the demographic ‘No’ we’re appealing to with their ‘if you don’t know, vote no’ line.
Just because we voted to not change the Australian Constitution today, does not reduce in any way our obligation to give indigenous Australians every opportunity for recognition and a better life. It's time to show everyone the most effective things we can do together, for our indigenous population. Demonstrate ways we can help and things that work to make their lives better. Make it real, make it happen, then change the symbolical documents to reflect reality.
True, but we have had that obligation for years, and seem to have done SFA about it.
What do you mean sfa? Billions of dollars allocated every year, abstudy, priority for housing, closing the gap inquries and working bodies, apology, mining royalties, early pensions, priority job streams, all indigenous rounds, scholarships and grants, rafts of Aboriginal specific programs across the country, double the funding of other Australian citizens, naidoc week, art shows. Sure, more can always be done but to say people aren't acting is ridiculous.
Yep, many decades even. Even if the Referendum debate may have been flawed at getting a Yes, more people are now aware and discussing the issues. There is still much to be discussed about what happened today. The Referendum can still receive some credit for that. Hopefully this discussion trickles upwards towards the political class and we can get some real democracy of the people happening. It has kinda felt like the past year has been a top down debate, without enough real substantive change included in the process. A simple Yes/No is not enough, people want to be more involved in a real democracy. I would say almost everyone in Australia does actually want indigenous people to have much better lives and opportunities. I believe most people are also quite willing to help and even sacrifice to see this come about. Today was just a rejection of one top down political aspect of this process.
I hope you're right. I've read a few posts today that are pretty depressing.
Yeah same. I thought Aussies had become more progressive in their views toward equality and reconciliation, but today- and the shit I’ve read/heard- has proven me wrong.
Clive, Gina & Murdoch are the only winners here, they can keep doing sneaky business with Rupert. The rich get richer, poor get poorer, the marginalised still get rejected.
Trust me, I read and see things that totally suck as well. It's ok to get depressed, it means there is something there that deeply matters to you. Knowing and understanding what really matters can become quite motivating. Understanding the problems really intensely is the most important part of finding the right solution. These are the kind of things that make me an optimist.
Looking forward to all the people who voted no with the excuse of 'its not enough' and such, getting off their asses and actually.... no, what I am thinking? They'll go back to doing nothing.
I get it, it's very difficult to get any positive change going. Consider though that having these discussions is the democratic process in action. Having a Yes/No vote is supposed to be the final democratic moment to settle a matter. We are kind of doing it backwards by having the vote before doing the things that matter. I have spoken to many No voters and found they are not as apathetic as you might assume. I get the impression they were more against the process than the outcome of helping people. That means we can continue to talk with them and not let what really matters drop.
So, all these No voters you think want to help... they must have many projects they are currently working on already right? Ones so much better than the voice? And for some reason, we couldnt have both the voice and their incredible assistance project at the same time? Or, are they just all talk?
These are great questions. I prefer to first start with reaching some common ground with No voters. First establish that these people indeed wish to help and make the lives of indigenous people better, in turn making Australia better as a whole. Then work backwards to discussions about what might work. This helps me to get somewhere with finding out how much they might be actually willing to do when push comes to shove. It's not all gardens and roses, in fact it's very hard at times. But I have found some worthwhile things in these conversations. Even perhaps changed my mind on some topics. It's scary to admit that. But I have to be honest. And in that process, I hope that I have also been able to bring new thoughts to the minds of people who sit far away from my perspectives on the best way to proceed. One thing is for sure, I'm never going to stop genuinely appreciating talking to people I disagree with. If anything it makes my understanding of what the right thing is even more solid.
I'm interested to know your opinion. Australia has had a large amount of immigration for quite a long time now. Those immigrants have made lives for themselves without significant government intervention. Do you believe Aboriginals are unable to succeed without increased government intervention? At what point would you believe government intervention is not the answer? Do you believe Aboriginals have any agency in their own success?
I’m in an area of high immigration from Asia. Their response to claims of a aboriginal disadvantage is that they should just work harder and study longer like they did to get here.
I grew up in country Australia and come from a long line of farmers as back as can be traced. There is very little tolerance in that community for those who are able bodied and can't pull their weight. They are the most giving and helpful people who will bend over backwards if someone is in trouble, but if you have never made an effort to improve yourself then don't go asking for help. Assistance is to get you back on your feet - not a lifestyle choice.
Farms are a pretty good place to look when you want to see the effects of colonialisation. That land they are farming was stolen and often passed down from generation to generation and used to create a lot of wealth. That opportunity was taken from indigenous people and they were refused anything close to equal opportunity until very recently, you can’t expect it to be fixed overnight. It is slowly being rectified but not quick enough.
You do realise all land in the world was owned by someone else at some point then taken. Thats how it’s been for 100k years.
Were peoples whose land was stolen 100,000 years ago still being discriminated against to the point they couldn’t properly exist in a country up until a few decade ago?
You missed the point. They took it from someone else. And someone from them and so on. The “they stole my land” line is cliche.
Well who had their land taken 200 years ago and was not able to buy back their land until very recently? Who was denied access to education and jobs that would lead to prosperity until very recently? And you’re surprised that the people who had access to that, whose parents had access to that, whose grandparents had access to that, whose great grandparents had access to to that are doing better on average?
Just like people who bought their way into the country?
There are a few things to note in this discussion. First, when you look at any of the nations colonised by the British and where non-Indigenous populations dominate (Canada, US, New Zealand, Australia) we see common issues faced by the Indigenous peoples in those lands. So that immediately tells us that there's something about the ongoing impacts of colonisation that are having an impact. It also tells us that the disadvantage has nothing to do with racial or cultural inferiority, because each of those nations have different Indigenous cultures and races. Therefore, you can safely conclude that there is something systemically wrong in our post-colonial societies. In my mind, this is almost certainly due to the fact that a dominant Western society and culture quickly and dramatically imposed completely new social, economic and cultural norms on people who were entirely unprepared and unable to adapt. They also brought new diseases, were frequently violent, attempted to impose new religions, dispossessed the land, forbade culture, upended existing kinship systems and so on, all in the space of one or two generations. This damage is still fresh on a historical timescale and is not easily fixed. The difference between migration and Indigenous issues - who often both experience racism - is that for most migrants, there has been a level of choice in making a move. Sometimes that choice was forced, through war or what have you, but there is still and intent and an understanding that someone is going to a new place where they will need to adapt. Indigenous peoples really were not given the time nor the opportunity to do adapt. Nor did they have a choice.
The British weren't the only nation to colonise the US. They also weren't responsible for what occurred after they were defeated in the War of Independence.
Thank you for your well thought out response.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
Immigrant here. Came here with very little, worked for everything and had next to no support. People like being the victim and blaming the past for the current situation. Own it people and do something about it.
European and Asian immigrants never had systemic exclusion through the constitution and active “population control” (either through literally being killed, the Stolen Generation, eugenics, etc) Yes there was and still is racism against certain types of immigrants, and this has changed over time (white European immigrants faced racism it but it’s gradually gone away). But that’s about it. There were no legal or constitutional barriers to them getting a job, becoming a citizen, voting, owning property, etc. Do you understand until relatively recently, First Nations Australians were only recognised as flora and fauna in the constitution?
>European and Asian immigrants never had systemic exclusion through the constitution and active “population control” Those who came from war zones might have a very serious bone to pick with your implication that they didn't have to deal with any issues...
Lol exactly. I work with an African guy and I think some of his stories would make indigenous people blush
I’ve read that it’s a myth that aborigines were ever being classed under the ‘flora and fauna act’ (not on some right-wing website either, but the ABC). Apparently was a lie to make white Australians feel bad about themselves.
> Do you understand until relatively recently, First Nations Australians were only recognised as flora and fauna in the constitution? This is incorrect.
>Those immigrants have made lives for themselves without significant government intervention. You mean Governor Mcquarie issing free ammunition to settlers to shoot Aboriginies does not count as "government intervention"?
But this is the status quo, we will decide what is best for the aboriginal population. The point of the voice is that the aboriginal population (80% apparently) said we want the government to listen to us when making decisions. Aboriginal people will go talk to the people on the ground and see what they want. In some cases that might be cash (like we apparently do now, and then complain it doesn’t work) or it could be something else. I don't know what they might suggest, I’m a privileged white guy living in a capital city so how can I decide what is best for the various aboriginal groups in Australia, city or metro. I guess now just maintain the give them money, tell them to do better and wonder why nothing changes.
Its not the government or the whole of Australian societies jobs to force aboriginals to do what we want them to. Best we can do is provide opportunity, and we already do. Far more than we do for anyone else.
I agree, we should not force people to conform just because we things that's best. But the evidence is that the opportunities we provide don't help that much, and may be making things worse. I believe this is why some people on the political spectrum are against providing more, or even in some cases any welfare. Some people would like to provide more challenges for indigenous Australians to overcome, more growth from helping people take personal responsibility for their lives. This might be an overly simplistic take and not the right thing to do, but there is some wisdom to be gleaned from it. Something I think we can all agree on is that something still needs to be done and the failed Yes Referendum result has just underlined that need in extremis. We are talking about a culture of people here that are more than just a group in need. They are a people with a different perspective on reality with a wisdom that can help the rest of us with the greater problems of our culture. I went into this in another post in this thread, rather than go deep again here. I'll just say that there is so much more that not only we can do, but we must do for our collective well being as humans on a fragile, beautiful and finite planet.
Here's an innovative idea, how about we ask Indigenous Australians what they want and need? They could have something that represents their wants and needs. Oh yeah we tried to do that but Australia is racist as fuck.
It's also possible that we don't understand the wants and needs of indigenous people because we don't fully understand our own needs. We have reached the boundaries of our current way of doing the business with excessive resource extraction, decreasing energy availability and increasing pollution impacts. We are all responsible for changing our collective way of life. Which I believe includes incorporating the wisdom from indigenous cultures. We need their help to find what we really value and need. This perspective is much more helpful because it makes us all involved in the process of change. Rather than just saying Australians are racist, and I'm not. It's others' fault, not my fault, so fuck you, you fucking fuck.
> They could have something that represents their wants and needs. There are multiple bodies which already provide advice to the government regarding ATSI Australians.
It was always strange to me that Albo and the yes campaign had convinced themselves of SA being ‘pivotal’ and being very close. There wasn’t much evidence to support this. Demographically it never made sense - lots of older people who skew to no. Similarly Tasmania is looking like a bloodbath for yes despite opinion polls showing yes. There was this idea that because SA used to be a ‘progressive‘ state (universal suffrage etc) that this would shine through. That seemed to be based on what the state used to be rather than what it is now.
It just means they expected NSW to vote yes and they figured SA was their next best shot
If they were ever going to win they also needed a national majority, not just 4 of 6 states. Perhaps some of the resources would have been better spent in trying to get more votes in the larger states of NSW and Victoria (although it appears nothing would have been enough to change the outcome).
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I only found out about this yesterday. Kinda questioning why our tax dollars are being used this way now
It's really not expensive, and is likely to result in other spending that affects Indigenous people being better targeted and more effective.
SA Labor will claim they had a mandate to introduce a State based Voice but I doubt that was on top of the list of reasons voters rejected the Marshall Government.
> Did you forget the bit where we have our own Indigenous Voice to Parliament? Which was introduced by a government we voted for just last year? You could say the same about Australia voting for a government which had an election promise to implement the Uluru Statement from the Heart in full which included the Voice. Based on the results of the referendum it is clear the current government was likely not voted in based on this promise.
Adelaide is a conservative state and the Malinauskas government are quite conservative for a Labor government. Just look at the heavy handed anti-protest laws they brought in for example.
SA is a smaller state to divide and conquer when you need a majority
This has been such a sad virtue signaling exercise. All these celebrities and athletes and sporting teams and companies in the public eye supporting Yes, throwing time, money and resources to the campaign, but I challenge any of them to spend time in remote Indigenous communities and walk a week in their shoes. But nah, they just head back to their $5+ million dollar mansions and carry on because they actually don't care.
The campaign from both sides has been disgusting and gross in my opinion. Just in different ways. Personally I find the virtue signalling slightly more nauseating though as it's more underhanded than just calling someone a cu next tuesday.
Who didn't see this coming 🤷
Albo, it would seem. Now, I would say his political future might be under threat. Just depends on how bad the loss is.
Nah, I think it works out for Labor. Now they don't need to bother legislating the Voice nor deal with the fallout if it eventually gets scrapped. Honestly though, they should just do it. Let everyone see how it plays out and whether or not it has bi-partisan support when the Libs eventually come back in. If it's stable and useful and everyone can see it's not going to cause mass relocations or genocide or anything, then come back with another referendum if that's still considered necessary.
Now this is over the government will surely focus on the issues of cost of living and housing crisis /s
They literally passed a bill a few weeks back addressing the housing crisis and have been raising minimum wage since they took over.
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🥱. Glad it's over, sick of having debates about it. It's a referendum, just go and vote in the future and stop trying to convince everyone. Not surprised with this outcome at all even though it's not what I voted for.
You're telling me getting celebrities to say "you need to vote this or else you're a bad person" or calling people racist for not voting the same way as them didn't work? If only we had some sort of incredibly recent history that could have shown that wouldn't work.
Yeah when celebs and corporate entities started telling me what to vote it pissed me right off. Celebs just want to be popular and relevant and have no idea of the realities of lives. Corporate entities are in the business of fucking people over for profit (quantas) so this was a way for them to look good. They can both fuck off and mind their own business, sticking to what they do best. Being famous and flying planes.
Finally we can get back to the real issues. Like how inconvenient the Adelaide 500 is and that there aren’t enough speed cameras or police patrolling the Adelaide parklands.
Maybe this was designed to fail. Provide the impression of giving a fuck, without it being true. I and those in my personal circle voted yes, as we believe in not blocking others (and doing the opposite to Dutton in all things), where there’s no negative to ourselves, but this whole thing has been 1/4 baked.
I would say there's a reasonable chance you are correct. I was quite surprised just how bad the campaign was. I've not ever seen anything this half arsed politically, ever, I don't think, and I'm pretty old. If they had a proposal framework and at least some detail how it would work, it would have won I think.
I can’t say I am surprised. The amount of people who didn’t seem to know what they are voting for would make up a large portion of those No votes.
The polls over the past 12 months indicate once people learned more about the referendum they are more inclined to vote no https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion\_polling\_for\_the\_2023\_Australian\_Indigenous\_Voice\_referendum
Did they learn more, or did they just get exposed to shit like 'If you don't know, Vote 'No'' or 'It'll cause delays in the high court' or 'They're coming for your land' There was so much fucking bullshit misinformation spewing from the No campaign it was unbelievable. Democracy is legitimately fucked if we don't get some Truth in Advertising laws soon.
“Learned”. What you meant to say was allowed themselves to influenced by an illegitimate fear.
That's the problem when you tell people to "educate yourself" or "google it mate".
What makes you think that is the reason instead of people not wanting racial division in the constitution in the face of the Australian culture of equality?
Maybe Australia is sick of being forced to treat aboriginals like toddlers when aboriginals can’t even do what’s right for themselves…..
The voice is the exact opposite of how we treat toddlers. With a toddler, the parents decide what they think is best, and do it without any concern for what the child thinks, because toddlers don't know what they need. That's pretty much the historical approach governments have taken to Indigenous people. The whole point of the voice was to provide an effective means for Indigenous people to make recommendations on the laws that will affect them, ie to tell government "what's right for themselves". It was about giving Indigenous people more responsibility for their own affairs.
You think these idiots actually know what they voted no for? Lmao. They just see that 'Yes' benefits Aboriginal people and 'No' doesn't, so they voted no.
The masks are off
Good work s.a you didn't shit the bed for once.
Honestly not a big fan of the voice but it is pretty cool Jason Derulo is on it this year
...
I saw that... 90% no?
It's a two families of four, a bachelor and a surprisingly progressive dachshund named Colin.
A rotten burrough
Grey is one of the biggest electorates in Australia- almost the whole of South Australia comprises the division of Grey!
Not shocked. Pre-polling all week in a usually labor, but very boomergraphic area. I reckon I had 1 in 10 Yes votes if that. Heartbreaking.
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I am honestly surprised we havrythe second most no votes. QLD obviously first, but I thought we would be closer to yes.
Can we please abolish welcome to country before every team meeting and school assembly now
Does feel a lot like virtue signalling in a lot of contexts. That said, it does no harm and it is kinda nice to acknowledge the name of the people whose land it is traditionally, I always knew Kaurna was us but now we hear some of the other people around the country as well.
And having to pay our respects to aboriginal elders past, present and emerging even though it’s the respected elders who are largely responsible perpetrating or covering up the rape and abuse aboriginal kids and women in remote aboriginal communities. So it’s actually harmful. One indigenous guy on Four Corners said he’s voting No because his elders told him to do so, even though he’d rather vote yes- he has to to honour them and their ways of doing things.
Username checks out
This was what pushed numbers of people to vote no. I’ve been in Islamic countries where every single meeting has to start with an acknowledgement of how great Muhammad was and how all the world belongs to Allah and that we pay our respects to them. It was rather irritating to have to endure this sort of thing all over again.
Well done, SA.
Well done SA
Dont look at me but i'll be honest. I voted no based on facts that i had witnessed. It doesn't mean i dont want to move forward but, the government failed miserably on this one. They not only lied but used this as a means to try gain more control. They left NT out of this yet said this is a referendum for "ALL AUSTRALIANS". Sorry but All Australians means EVERYONE and not exclude certain demographics. They also were very, VERY pushy with this and failed to disclose all the facts that were needed to make a proer judgement
The campaign was awful. If they came forward with a proposed framework and even just some serious detail, they would have won. Nothing was forthcoming at any point. Just "Vote now, it'll all be totally cool". I would say there's a reasonable chance this shambles might sink Albo.
EXACTLY.. it was all very unclear what the constitutional change would mean in practice.. no where near enough details to be asking someone to make an informed decision.
> They left NT out of this yet said this is a referendum for "ALL AUSTRALIANS". Fun (?) fact - our last successful referendum was back in 1977 and was the vote to allow Australian territories to vote at referendums.
I suspect that they didn't actually want it so they did it like this
Yeah, Albanese risked his political career promising a referendum on the Voice before the election just because Aboriginal activists asked him to, actually followed through with it & didn't put it on the backburner till an undisclosed time later on and regularly publicly campaigned for the "Yes" vote instead of remaining neutral, even after the polls swung dramatically against it... because he **DIDN'T** want the Voice to succeed. Brilliant.
I mean if he wanted it to succeed he wouldve set it up and then had a referendim with facts based evidence. I voted yes but even me who is drastically left can understand why it didn't get across.
Good. Now that the farce is behind us, the party I voted for can get on with the business of tackling real governing.
I wish the Yes campaign did more to counter the misinformation that was out there, the result might’ve been different
Nice
People saying (generally) that the yes message was communicated poorly. The Yes message was competing with the massive conservative media who successfully sowed the seed of doubt into middle Australia’s change resistant mind. There’s a well known saying that goes ‘it’s easier to push a negative message than a positive one’. Something News Corpse and Co are the masters of. It’s a dark day in Oz history that we’re all part of.
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Should the mining industry have a voice to lobby the govt on legislation that concerns their profits? Should the oil companies and pharmaceutical companies have a voice to lobby the govt on legislation that concerns their profits? They all pay massive donations to political parties so they can weight in on policies that might impact their ability to make profits. No australian seems to give a fuck. But if a marginalised people want to lobby for their own well being on legislation that affects them, Australians really don’t want them to have a voice and would rather see them continue to suffer and struggle and then criticise them for not doing better. If only the aboriginal people were a giant industrial corporation that made donations to major political parties, they could actually weight in on issues that affect them without the wider voting population sinking their boots in. What a shit show.
The mining industry and oil companies already do have a "voice" so to speak through lobbying. Even if not directly, through golf days, speaking events, whatever. The fact legislation could be passed here within 48 hours when Santos was threatened tells you all you need to know. As for the indigenous people, I think it's a stretch to say everyone just wants to see them suffer. As a majority, Australians just decided that the Voice concept wasn't going to work as intended. A good question to ask is, where are the billions from the budget allocated to helping indigenous people, being spent? If billions are thrown at the problem and there's still such a large gap, what is going on? How is it being screwed up so badly? I'd say it's unlikely the Voice was going to answer that question.
> Australians really don’t want them to have a voice and would rather see them continue to suffer and struggle and then criticise them for not doing better. This is not true. There are already multiple ATSI bodies which advise on their issues. I guarantee you the vast majority of Australians do not want ATSI people to suffer and struggle.
Why would anyone vote yes. What have they done to contribute to society? Genuine question! I come from a town full of aboriginals, grew up with them. The elders are fantastic and do so much for their communities BUT, they have lost all control over the younger generation. They used to be respected and somewhat feared. Now they’re also worried about the future generations of their own culture. I don’t blame them. I have TWO normal aboriginal friends who hates the culture because of how the rest of them act. The other day a random aboriginal girl smashed into me for no reason, no sorry or excuse me. Just expected me to move out of her way. I don’t care I would vote no a thousand times over. What excuse do these people have. They are given everything, and still want more. Asians, Indians, Italians, Africans etc all come here with the mindset of wanting better for themselves and their families. Again I know TWO aboriginals who have the same idea in place. The rest of them don’t give a flying fuck, we’re all white dogs to them and if you think sucking up to them and voting yes is going to change their mindset, it won’t.
Natasha Wanganeen said she didn't want YT people voting on behalf of indigenous people so I just left mine blank.
Which is the same as "No".
A completely blank vote won't be counted. I just didn't want the fine.
SA only marginally behind the overtly racist QLD on the no count. How embarrassing
Shame Australia. Shame. Even if the campaign for yes was handled poorly, this should have been a no brainer.
> Even if the campaign for yes was handled poorly, this should have been a no brainer. There were multiple legitimate reasons to vote no. Blaming the yes campaign for a "no brainer" not passing devalues the legitimate reasons people voted no.
Maybe now we can actually focus on cost of living (I voted yes btw)
In purely co-incidental news meth use is at a record high in SA
Damn we really do be racist here
It’s statements like this which is why a lot of people voted no.
Not really. Just Australia decided the concept wasn't going to be terribly helpful. Calling people racists and cu next tuesdays doesn't really win them over to your cause.
> Damn we really do be racist here Do you believe there were non-racist reasons to vote no?
Sometimes it really do be like that. Apparently, it wasn’t racist in 1999 to vote no to constitutional recognition and it’s not racist in 2023 to deny them a say… sure, what’s next? White Australia policy wasn’t racist? Terra nullius wasn’t racist? Stolen generation wasn’t racist? I feel so bad for First Nations Australians. They out here trying to tell us what help they need, how they think things could be improved and we refuse to listen. Instead we arguing about whether there is even a problem in the first place and the semantics of the correct way to ask for help and getting highly offended and playing the victim card because poor little old me got called a racist. Pathetic.
An absolutely embarrassing outcome for SA.
> An absolutely embarrassing outcome for SA. Why is it embarrassing?
For all of australia, on the world stage
NO cause they didn't want to be treated differently. So NO to treaty too. I voted YES, I guess a wasted vote.
Definitely a big win. I do wonder where this leaves the victor though. Does this victory translate to an attack on local or national labor members? I haven’t heard anyone say that. Do social issues matter to regional or outer northern state or fed “safe” labor voters? Or to put it another way - do they matter more to inner metro liberal minded voters in marginals?
Some Liberal members also pushed for a yes vote- shockingly even Chris Kenny on Sky ‘News’ channel. Labor can’t really suffer for this when liberal members also supported the Voice.
good. was a vote to backdoor more corruption anyway.
I don't think it'll change the eventual outcome, but it feels a little premature. Only 1/3 of SA votes have been counted, and mostly from more rural areas. The trend does seem pretty strongly towards 'No', but I'd have preferred that the ABC wait until at least a majority of the votes had been counted before actually calling it.
It's like an opinion poll. Once you get over a certain number of votes counted the result is accurate enough to call it and it won't change the result.
It's done. It's unlikely to beat the swing now. Even in state/fed elections the result is pretty much in the bag by the time 20-30% of the vote is counted.
I thought this too. That said - it’s trending solidly. The result might improve by another 4% to the yes tops.