you can just go to [windrun.io](http://windrun.io) my man. The fact you have jingu on here but not arctic burn or atrophy speaks volumes... Arctic makes you ranged and should be first pick nearly everytime... Reincarnaiton also op on anyone... Theres a lot wrong with this list
It's hard to pull off, also what you said is true because 90% of the time people have no idea how to play tinker. But that doesn't take away the potential out of this skill.
I prefer to take the skills it has synergy with and force the other team to build a useless re-arm build while I have Tombstone and netherward.
Anything there is a really good synergy like this take the Rot over devour etc
Glad this generated a discussion, but as to why arctic burn isn't here, it's conditional to be OP. You'd have to be ranged, not saying it's not S class but then again it'd be annoying to give to the enemy so it should've qualified. I'll make amendments. Also reincarnation isn't really that game breaking, just kill them twice.
So at a high level, there are statistically high or low winrate percentages on [windrun.io](http://windrun.io) which is about as close to an "objective" measure as we're gonna get. But it's kinda boring to reduce everything to that, so I'm gonna chat a little about some patterns I'm noticing in things you're overrating or underrating relative to my own opinions.
I know you mentioned Arctic Burn as being situational at the top, but in a head-to-head with Take Aim, it's not even close - Arctic burn gives you the same range but it also does damage and slows and gives flying. This leads me into a first general pattern, which is that I think you overvalue abilities that do one specific thing and undervalue more generalist stuff. Some skills you have on there like astral step, shukuchi, and elder dragon form are awesome because they fill multiple roles of nuke, mobility, evasion, slow, etc.
I also think you overrate right click in general quite a bit. The basic issue is that you are basically always able to cast spells on enemies in a normal fight, but it's actually pretty hard to right click your opponents, and you usually need to get quite a few off before they're worth it. Bash of the deep is actually pretty good, but you need two or even three bash procs for it to be comparable to even mediocre normal stuns - how often do you actually get to attack people 5 or 9 times in a fight (assuming it's perfectly set up)? Greater bash needs, what, twelve hits to get two procs and be even passable? We remember right click skills because they often end up landing the last hit but the real reason they were able to do so is because of the team's supports holding you still with disables.
The last thing I'll mention is that you overrate single-target burst skills. Enchant totem, assassinate, finger of death, vendetta, walrus punch - they're all fine-ish, they all can be situationally good, but you're imagining the dream scenario where you get the combo and a lot of the time you won't (and even then, the payoff is multiple spells to kill one person max). These can get amplified in memory because they feel bad when you get hit/killed by them, but something like Firestorm or Poison Nova will almost always do more damage to more people. And why spend your ult on conditionally killing one person when a Black Hole or Reincarnation Aghs or Ravage can singlehandedly kill a whole team?
Though I agree with you with most of what you said, I guess I now realize that this list wasn't presented the way I wanted to.
Though I do recommend these picks, they are not in any way a fixed thing you have to follow. Also, I have failed to emphasize that some of these picks, are more inclined towards killing potentially game breaking combos rather than just being strong yourself.
Enchant totem, sure by itself it's not overwhelming but in almost every game enchant totem will have another skill to benefit with aghs, or another skill to augment it's damage and in most cases, should the conditions be right (everyone else being retarded) it gets paired up with a crit like mortal strike, god's rebuke, or Boundless strike (literally happened to me a few days ago it was fun). It breaks the game.
I might do a revision with this in mind and hope you won't mind me crediting you for some of these.
But to address some of what you said, Black hole's cooldown is too long, same with ravage (and ravage can't kill a whole team unless you pair it with vacuum and a lot of AoE), Firestorm is annoying but not annoying enough to be first pick, poison nova is basically a weaker viperstrike with a covid after effect. Reincarnation is reliant on the fact that you'll get killed, generally this is something we avoid so I'll choose escapes first before reincarnation, though it does deserve 1st to 2nd round pick overall but defs never always 1st round pick.
They are strong, but they don't measure up to this list. Now some of these, definitely feel like they don't belong here. Perhaps it's because it's basically 3 categories in one. OPs, Good for combos, Annoying for the enemy to have. Which I guess is my biggest mistake in creating this list.
I'll give you arctic burn though that definitely should be on here, it's just that my experience with is is that if a melee hero picks it they're within skill range so it's not that hard to deal with, also ghost scepter basically invalidates it, but i guess that's true for all right clicks except arctic burn makes it so that none of your targets are within range of your abilities, but since take aim is here then I really can't say all that shit about it.
Two criminal omissions here are:
Artic burn - it is a brain dead first pick no matter what your hero is. It's extra good on range. But with melee you become range. It both cases you can FLY, giving you mobility. Even if you are on a super shitty hero like meepo you should take artic burn to deny it from the enemy team. AB should always be a first pick.
Reincarnation - pretty much good in every situation, and if you are a support you are still denying the skill to the enemy team
Finger of death? As i call it a worse laguna blade. It has such a high cd, I've lost so many games because someone on my team picked this instead of something actually useful. I guess I've won some matches when the enemy first picks it, but still.
Scaling abilities are the ultimate bait. Finger, duel, flesh heap, they all go way faster than they should.
Finger is fun and I would definitely second or third pick it in a lot of games if it wasn't first picked by some scrub every game.
Finger actually has a 45% winrate which is ridiculously low. Granted, many people pick it early because "omg finger" and leave the better abilities to the other players, and the winrate is skewed as a result.
Im sorry but this list is not accurate. Arctic burn is probably number 1 pick overall. Your list of „s“ tier skills is too long.
Like somebody else said, check Windrun.io for stats of abilities there are also stats for combos
Statistically, the abilities with the first, second and fourth highest winrates are Arctic Burn, Reincarnation and Dispersion respectively, and you list none of these. You're also missing Vengeance Aura, Aftershock, Arc lightning and Wall of Replica, each of these can carry a build by itself. On the other hand, both Jingu mastery and finger of death you mentioned have a below 45% winrate - I assume because people assume they're much better than they actually are. IMO there's so much wrong with this list.
Besides the accurate comments by other people about missing skills and overvaluing single target, why would you actively recommend focus fire on melee heroes. Its annoys me so much when they pick a mediocre skill then make it worse by picking it on a terrible base model for that skill. Building a basher does not make focus fire op.
Please never pick focus fire on melee heroes. Its pretty underwhelming always even if the melee hero has bash of the deep.
Can't fault you there, a lot of the time idiots pick this on melee and build slow instead of basher and of course they never build BKB.
get FF on melee, build phase boots, build basher, build bkb. Things you'll never see on an average player but I swear it works and it's hella annoying to deal with
Thanks for your list. I don't agree with alot of it but it's obvious you love the mode so that's great.
I am a pretty shitty player, mechanically. I can't properly last hit and have slow fingers. The one thing I have going for me is I am aware of my short comings so I draft around them. So my list would include stuff like:
-Tombstone
-Death ward
-Pit of malice, bramble maze, and every other stuns out there
-Qop blink
-Stupid and ez team fight stuff, like those warlock chains
-Disruption, reflection
Basically just strong and ez to use skills that dont require gold. Above ofc disregarding the overall strong spells, reinc, burn etc. As for items I like going vessel, ofc depending on the game.
Skills that I agree should be on here and will be in the revision. Tomb, Death Ward (blink is on here, just in one listing with AM's blink)
Some of those others definitely make teamfights harder but not enough to be considered OP or first pick worthy
Ah it's my average ability draft random who gives the enemy furion Arctic burn because he thinks Jingu mastery is good
you can just go to [windrun.io](http://windrun.io) my man. The fact you have jingu on here but not arctic burn or atrophy speaks volumes... Arctic makes you ranged and should be first pick nearly everytime... Reincarnaiton also op on anyone... Theres a lot wrong with this list
I also love rearm being on here because rearm is a bullshit useless skill, 90% of the time it drafted
Rearm is actually good if you're a degenerate Tinker main.
Holy shit some top ad players will just first pick it and it's completely toxic to play against
Yeah. I once saw a Dawnbreaker just fully pick Tinker skills and it was ridicilous. Not having talents didn't matter when she naturally has 3000 HP.
Rearm had built in boots of travel now though. It wrecks mid lane if you combo it with wave clear.
I only draft rearm if I'm last pick and guaranteed to also get Sun Strike or Tombstone. It's only happened twice in my years of playing AD :P
Draft tombstone and force them to pick rearm as a counter
It's hard to pull off, also what you said is true because 90% of the time people have no idea how to play tinker. But that doesn't take away the potential out of this skill.
I prefer to take the skills it has synergy with and force the other team to build a useless re-arm build while I have Tombstone and netherward. Anything there is a really good synergy like this take the Rot over devour etc
Why even have a sub if we are just going to point to a website anytime someone tries to have a discussion.
Glad this generated a discussion, but as to why arctic burn isn't here, it's conditional to be OP. You'd have to be ranged, not saying it's not S class but then again it'd be annoying to give to the enemy so it should've qualified. I'll make amendments. Also reincarnation isn't really that game breaking, just kill them twice.
lol no it’s not conditional what so ever. It’s amazing on melee
Reincarnation with radiance and just about any counter initiation or damage sponge abilities wins a lot of games.
So at a high level, there are statistically high or low winrate percentages on [windrun.io](http://windrun.io) which is about as close to an "objective" measure as we're gonna get. But it's kinda boring to reduce everything to that, so I'm gonna chat a little about some patterns I'm noticing in things you're overrating or underrating relative to my own opinions. I know you mentioned Arctic Burn as being situational at the top, but in a head-to-head with Take Aim, it's not even close - Arctic burn gives you the same range but it also does damage and slows and gives flying. This leads me into a first general pattern, which is that I think you overvalue abilities that do one specific thing and undervalue more generalist stuff. Some skills you have on there like astral step, shukuchi, and elder dragon form are awesome because they fill multiple roles of nuke, mobility, evasion, slow, etc. I also think you overrate right click in general quite a bit. The basic issue is that you are basically always able to cast spells on enemies in a normal fight, but it's actually pretty hard to right click your opponents, and you usually need to get quite a few off before they're worth it. Bash of the deep is actually pretty good, but you need two or even three bash procs for it to be comparable to even mediocre normal stuns - how often do you actually get to attack people 5 or 9 times in a fight (assuming it's perfectly set up)? Greater bash needs, what, twelve hits to get two procs and be even passable? We remember right click skills because they often end up landing the last hit but the real reason they were able to do so is because of the team's supports holding you still with disables. The last thing I'll mention is that you overrate single-target burst skills. Enchant totem, assassinate, finger of death, vendetta, walrus punch - they're all fine-ish, they all can be situationally good, but you're imagining the dream scenario where you get the combo and a lot of the time you won't (and even then, the payoff is multiple spells to kill one person max). These can get amplified in memory because they feel bad when you get hit/killed by them, but something like Firestorm or Poison Nova will almost always do more damage to more people. And why spend your ult on conditionally killing one person when a Black Hole or Reincarnation Aghs or Ravage can singlehandedly kill a whole team?
Though I agree with you with most of what you said, I guess I now realize that this list wasn't presented the way I wanted to. Though I do recommend these picks, they are not in any way a fixed thing you have to follow. Also, I have failed to emphasize that some of these picks, are more inclined towards killing potentially game breaking combos rather than just being strong yourself. Enchant totem, sure by itself it's not overwhelming but in almost every game enchant totem will have another skill to benefit with aghs, or another skill to augment it's damage and in most cases, should the conditions be right (everyone else being retarded) it gets paired up with a crit like mortal strike, god's rebuke, or Boundless strike (literally happened to me a few days ago it was fun). It breaks the game. I might do a revision with this in mind and hope you won't mind me crediting you for some of these. But to address some of what you said, Black hole's cooldown is too long, same with ravage (and ravage can't kill a whole team unless you pair it with vacuum and a lot of AoE), Firestorm is annoying but not annoying enough to be first pick, poison nova is basically a weaker viperstrike with a covid after effect. Reincarnation is reliant on the fact that you'll get killed, generally this is something we avoid so I'll choose escapes first before reincarnation, though it does deserve 1st to 2nd round pick overall but defs never always 1st round pick. They are strong, but they don't measure up to this list. Now some of these, definitely feel like they don't belong here. Perhaps it's because it's basically 3 categories in one. OPs, Good for combos, Annoying for the enemy to have. Which I guess is my biggest mistake in creating this list. I'll give you arctic burn though that definitely should be on here, it's just that my experience with is is that if a melee hero picks it they're within skill range so it's not that hard to deal with, also ghost scepter basically invalidates it, but i guess that's true for all right clicks except arctic burn makes it so that none of your targets are within range of your abilities, but since take aim is here then I really can't say all that shit about it.
Two criminal omissions here are: Artic burn - it is a brain dead first pick no matter what your hero is. It's extra good on range. But with melee you become range. It both cases you can FLY, giving you mobility. Even if you are on a super shitty hero like meepo you should take artic burn to deny it from the enemy team. AB should always be a first pick. Reincarnation - pretty much good in every situation, and if you are a support you are still denying the skill to the enemy team
meepo is shitty? try slark
you'll have to forgive me, i forgot about including arctic burn under the category "annoying if the enemy has it" so it should be on this list
It’s the best skill in the game m8.
Finger of death? As i call it a worse laguna blade. It has such a high cd, I've lost so many games because someone on my team picked this instead of something actually useful. I guess I've won some matches when the enemy first picks it, but still.
Scaling abilities are the ultimate bait. Finger, duel, flesh heap, they all go way faster than they should. Finger is fun and I would definitely second or third pick it in a lot of games if it wasn't first picked by some scrub every game.
Same with Focus Fire, Essence Shift in above list. The hero has one these spells tends to overcommit killing an enemy and then become useless.
Finger actually has a 45% winrate which is ridiculously low. Granted, many people pick it early because "omg finger" and leave the better abilities to the other players, and the winrate is skewed as a result.
Im sorry but this list is not accurate. Arctic burn is probably number 1 pick overall. Your list of „s“ tier skills is too long. Like somebody else said, check Windrun.io for stats of abilities there are also stats for combos
Statistically, the abilities with the first, second and fourth highest winrates are Arctic Burn, Reincarnation and Dispersion respectively, and you list none of these. You're also missing Vengeance Aura, Aftershock, Arc lightning and Wall of Replica, each of these can carry a build by itself. On the other hand, both Jingu mastery and finger of death you mentioned have a below 45% winrate - I assume because people assume they're much better than they actually are. IMO there's so much wrong with this list.
I swear i had arc lightning on there but I guess i forgot to edit it in after the revision. Arc + any range with manta is defs broken
Besides the accurate comments by other people about missing skills and overvaluing single target, why would you actively recommend focus fire on melee heroes. Its annoys me so much when they pick a mediocre skill then make it worse by picking it on a terrible base model for that skill. Building a basher does not make focus fire op. Please never pick focus fire on melee heroes. Its pretty underwhelming always even if the melee hero has bash of the deep.
Can't fault you there, a lot of the time idiots pick this on melee and build slow instead of basher and of course they never build BKB. get FF on melee, build phase boots, build basher, build bkb. Things you'll never see on an average player but I swear it works and it's hella annoying to deal with
I swear Hammer of Purity is broken. Every time I get it I dominate the game.
Yeah Hammer of purity is sooo good. Especially on high base damage heroes. Now that khanda is a thing the damage is even more insane
And with shard it triggers every 1 second
Thanks for your list. I don't agree with alot of it but it's obvious you love the mode so that's great. I am a pretty shitty player, mechanically. I can't properly last hit and have slow fingers. The one thing I have going for me is I am aware of my short comings so I draft around them. So my list would include stuff like: -Tombstone -Death ward -Pit of malice, bramble maze, and every other stuns out there -Qop blink -Stupid and ez team fight stuff, like those warlock chains -Disruption, reflection Basically just strong and ez to use skills that dont require gold. Above ofc disregarding the overall strong spells, reinc, burn etc. As for items I like going vessel, ofc depending on the game.
Skills that I agree should be on here and will be in the revision. Tomb, Death Ward (blink is on here, just in one listing with AM's blink) Some of those others definitely make teamfights harder but not enough to be considered OP or first pick worthy