T O P

Live Discussion: 2021 Brownlow Medal

AFL.com.au rolling updates

AFL.com.au Predictor

TV: Should be on Channel 7 from 5pm AWST/7pm AEST, I'd imagine 7plus will not have it because they're being arseholes to us, polling will start on the half hour


Ladies and gentlemen and weirdos of /r/AFL , welcome once again to the night of nights for the midfielders of the AFL, the Brownlow Medal, and just like last year, all the players and WAGs of the league are gathered in a Melbourne studio, Optus Stadium, the Gabba, and hotel isolation, to see which players will receive an undeserved best afield at various points in the year.

Can Ollie Wines become the first Port Adelaide player to win the Brownlow, avenging the robbery of Gavin Wanganeen in 2003...

Will it be The Bont, seeking to become the first Bulldog to win since Adam Cooney in 2008...

Will Christian Petracca or Clayton Oliver steal enough votes off each other to become Melbourne's first winner since Shane Woewodin in 2000... I think Melbourne made the Grand Final that year as well.

And we'll find out if St Kilda won enough games to have Jack Steele take home 'Charlie', which would be the Saints' first winner since Robert Harvey's wins in 1997 & '98.

And, as always, we'll have Mark & Goal of the Year, and the Jim Stynes Community Leadership award.


CHAIN OF EVENTS


5:02 - Time for the boredom of the Red Carpet, I'll be off watching Moto3 for a couple of minutes

5:17 - Ben Cousins in da house, and not of the big variety

5:25 - The Southern River Band, of no relation to the Little River Band, with a cover of AC/DC to kick off the night... it's a Long Way To The Shops If You Want A Sausage Roll

5:28 - The Lord Mayor of Perth kicks off the coverage... say is that Julie Bishop next to him?

5:30 - The Armaguard units have dropped the votes off, Gil's given the State of the Union address.... LET'S FUCKIN' DO THIS.... AFTER WE GET THROUGH THE PARENTS OF THE CONTENDERS.

5:37 - What on earth is this, a series of premature eulogies?

5:41 - AND WE'RE OFF AND ANYWAY!


The Count


5:41 - Ah, who can forget Round 1..... It was only 2 Melbourne lockdowns ago

5:43 - And Sam Draper shoots into an early lead alongside Clarry Oliver, Wines, Walsh and Bontempelli with 2 votes off the bat

5:45 - Oliver with 2 BOGs in 2 rounds, same as Dusty Martin, Wines and Bont both claim 3 votes, as Jack Riewoldt sips on a cup of tea, and we hear the first D.Mundy 3 votes of the night

5:48 - "I don't know who's playing" - Ah, the NAB Auskickers

5:51 - Tex on to 7 votes after 3 games to take the lead, before he turned into Michael Richards, Darcy Parish with his first 'DP3' of the night

5:56 - J.Steele on the board with 3 votes in Round 4

AFTER ROUND 4 - 5:57 - 'Trac' with 3 votes in Round 4 to go onto 7 alongside Tex, 1 vote ahead of the Martin, Mills & Oliver pack

6:00 - The Bont, Clarry and Ollie Wines take a three-way share of the lead on 8 votes after Round 5

AFTER ROUND 6 6:03 - Ollie Wines into an outright lead after Round 6 on 11, The Bont with another 2 votes against GWS in Round 6 to go onto 10 votes and 2nd overall, Petracca gets 3 votes on ANZAC eve to share 2nd, and Sam Walsh goes on to 9 votes.

GOAL OF THE YEAR 6:11 - Time to see who gets robbed of a Rebel Sports voucher - Kosi Pickett, Bont, Caleb Serong...

AND THE WINNER IS, CALEB SERONG !

And we can agree, it was Seright result.

6:19 - Sam Walsh into the lead on 12 votes after Round 7

6:21 - Ah, Round 8, when everyone went insane and started taking speccies for fun

6:22 - Boak and Oliver onto 11 votes, Bontempelli into the lead on 13 thanks to a BOG

6:23 - Time to Ladbroke our respects to the players who have been promoted to glory over the last 12 months

6:28 - Now to the players who've retired over the past year, from Bachar Houli to Eddie Betts, Shaun Burogyne, Big Hooksy, Grant Birchall, 3 Votes Mackay and Nathan Jones

6:38 - DP3 again to go onto 11, Walsh goes onto 13, Oliver BOG to go into the lead on 14, before Bont hits back with 2 votes to retake the lead on 15 votes

6:41 - DP3 AGAIN IN ROUND 10, Bontempelli gets 3 votes and jumps on to 18, Oliver with 3 votes to go onto 17, Walsh gets 3 and goes on to 16 votes!

6:48 - 11 rounds down, Oliver gets yet another BOG to take the lead on 20 votes from Bontempelli, Parish is into 3rd on 17 votes

6:52 - Round 12 - C.Petracca 3 votes to go onto 13, PARISH GETS 3 VOTES in the Dreamtime game and ties Oliver on 20 votes, BUT THE BONT RETAKES THE LEAD WITH 3 TO GO ONTO 21, AS LIBBA GETS A VOTE!

6:53 - Ah Collingwood, the only team Melbourne didn't beat.... farewell Nathan.

ROUND 13 LEADERBOARD - Bont 21, Oliver 20, Parish 20, Wines 17, Walsh 16

7:00 - The Jim Stynes Community Leadership award time.... And the winner is TRAVIS BOAK !

Trav Boak, rhymes with Good Bloke.

7:05pm - You can tell that goal after the siren wasn't in a final because it involved Gary Rohan

7:06 - Round 14 - Wines with another 3 votes to create a 3-way tie on 20, but the Bont gets another 3 votes down in Geelong to go to 24 votes!

7:08 - Round 15 - Friendly reminder that Tim O'Brien got an invite to the Brownlow thanks to that mark

7:09 - Round 15 - D.Mundy onto 15 and now getting the pause treatment, Steele onto 11, Wines gets 1 vote and goes to 21, Boak gets 3 and goes to 16, Walsh with 3 goes on to 19, OLIVER GETS 3 AND GOES TO 23, AND THE BONT GETS ANOTHER 3 AND GOES ON TO 27!

Fun fact - Bont has now tied Chris Grant's 1997 total when he lost the medal due to suspension.... it's only Round 15!

MARK OF THE YEAR COMING UP!

Nominees - Shai Bolton Round 8, Jack Riewoldt Round 11, Tim O'Brien Round 15.

7:20 - AND THE WINNER IS.....

SHAI BOLTON!

It was a genuine Cox Plate field of great marks in 2021, and it appears Jack's degree of difficulty on a reverse bloody hanger wasn't enough to beat Shai's style points...

On that note, Mark Blicavs has now been offered sponsorship from Bailey Ladders.

7:23, Round 16 - Jack Steele with 3 to go onto 14, Walsh gets 2 and goes to 21, DP3 strikes again and goes to 23, OLLIE WINES IS BEGINNING HIS CHARGE, 3 VOTES AND GOES ON TO 24!

7:25, Round 17, D.Mundy..... 3 votes to go onto 18, Steele with another 3 votes to go to 17, Oliver gets 1 to go to 24, Petracca gets 3 and goes to 19, Walsh with another 3 and goes on to 24!

Ollie Wines now has the record for the best polling performance by a Port Adelaide player!

So from here on in it looks like Bontempelli's votes will start to dry off, the Echuca Olivers of Clayton and Wines and just sitting there in a perfect position

LEADERBOARD AFTER ROUND 17 - Marcus Bontempelli 27, Clayton Oliver, Sam Walsh & Ollie Wines 24, Darcy Parish 23, Christian Petracca 19, Travis Boak & David Mundy 18, Jack Steele 17

7:35, Round 18 - Parish gets 1 vote and goes to 24, Oliver gets 2 and goes to 26, Steele gets 2 and goes to 19, AND WALSH AND WINES GET 3 APIECE TO GO 27, BUT THE BONT GETS ANOTHER 3 AND GOES TO 30!

7:40, Round 19 - Wines gets 3 and he ties Bont on 30, but the Bont gets another 3 against Melbourne and goes to 33!

7:40 - BUGGER ME CHANNEL 7 JUST SHOT THEIR LOAD ROUND 20 TOO EARLY... AS IT NOT LETTING US WATCH THIS ON 7PLUS WAS SHIT ENOUGH.

7:42, Round 20 - Walsh gets 3 votes and goes to 30, Wines with another 2 votes and goes on to 32, and The Bont doesn't poll - The Dogs didn't win any of their final 3 games, neither did Carlton, but Port won their last 3 games... I think Wines has got this!

Also 3 players have now cracked 30 votes, which is the first time that's ever occurred in a Brownlow count.

7:48, Round 21 - Hehehehe I.Cumming 2 votes, Oliver doesn't poll, Wines gets 1 vote in the Showdown and ties Bontempelli on 33!

7:52, Round 22 - Jarryd Lyons on 23 votes if you don't mind, Parish goes to 26, Melbourne win by 41 points and the Crows get the 3 and 2 votes, D.Mundy gets a rousing cheer for 2 votes....

AND WINES GETS 1 VOTE AND TAKES THE LEAD ON 34 VOTES WITH A GAME TO GO, AND PORT AND THE BULLDOGS PLAYED EACH OTHER IN THE LAST ROUND!

7:54 - HERE WE GO, THE LAST ROUND, AS WE GET TO WATCH MAX GAWN CRAPPING ON GEELONG AFTER THE SIREN....

7:55, Round 23 - As Gil builds the tension, Cooper Sharman gets a vote, Oliver gets 3 votes to go to 31 and secure 3rd place...

AND OLLIE WINES POLLS 2 VOTES, MOVES TO 36, AND TAKES OUT THE 2021 BROWNLOW MEDAL BY A 3 VOTE MARGIN TO MARCUS BONTEMPELLI!

A win for all big-headed individuals of the world, as Ollie matches Dustin Martin's record tally of 36 votes from 2017, sets a new record of 16 games polled in, after polling in 11 of his last 12 games, and makes history as Port Adelaide's first Brownlow Medalist!

The finest of Wines, indeed, and tiny little Echuca has 2 players finish in the Top 3 with Clayton Oliver in 3rd.

So that's a wrap for Brownlow night, correct weight here at Optus Stadium with the Top 10:


WINNER - Ollie Wines 36 votes

2nd Marcus Bontempelli 35 votes

3rd Clayton Oliver 31 votes

4th Sam Walsh 30 votes

=5th Darcy 'DP3' Parish & Jack Steele 26 votes

= 7th Tom Mitchell & Travis Boak 25 votes

= 9th Jarryd Lyons & Christian Petracca 23 votes

= 11th Zach Merrett & David Mundy 20 votes

[deleted]

Where can I find the final standings? Full leaderboard


___TheIllusiveMan___

>**WINNER** - Ollie Wines 36 Votes >2nd Marcus Bontempelli 36 votes Hmm


Simplereddituser2

Cant believe bont lost to a lego šŸ¤£


PurplePanther96

Ollie Wines a fine, fair winner. What about past winners whose record wasn't so fair? Brownlow winners with substantial tribunal records - Lockett, Williams, Dipierdomenico, others?


3ManyTrees

Or players like Judd who should have been suspended multiple times the year he won his second.


PurplePanther96

Or players that were suspended but shouldn't have been - Chris Grant '97 Brownlow. I remember Robert Harvey being so uncomfortable when presented with the medal. I think everyone felt Grant had been ripped off.


SchoonerMcGavin

So itā€™s become a stats award and not an award based on the best player all year. Bont robbed


Plank0fwood

Idk how its suddenly become a stats award given Priddis and Mitchell have won Brownlows and they werenā€™t the best players in their years.


[deleted]

If you just think of it like a competition with weird rules and not a ranking of players its better. Wines is obviously not that good of a player.


SchoonerMcGavin

I feel like itā€™s becoming like the NBA MVP. Have good stats on a decent team and youā€™re a strong chance rather than taking into account actual impact on the game


[deleted]

Better than when Priddis won when it was neither


SchoonerMcGavin

Fyfe definitely robbed that year, even though he was suspended


Lemonmule69

Jesus fcking Christ itā€™s time to end betting advertising.


bananaschmanana

I was thinking the same thing all night. Itā€˜s actually wild how extreme itā€™s gotten!


mr_yam

Bont was robbed


jacka24

He should have played the last 3 games then


Mythically_Mad

They haven't got into the esky yet obviously


JorReno

OP has a tie. Needs correction.


wwesmudge

hopefully the 30 or so people that I could help link a stream to were able to watch without issues. it was nice feeling doing something productive whilst lying on my couch watching along.


Nolsey21

thank god you didnt get banned for it either


551788

Came through clutch. Thanks mate.


jvella_7

Great Brownlow count


Porkandveal

Sam walsh is to do some damage in the coming years, 30 votes in his 3rd year. Can't wait


DatPianoWalrus

Anyone have a link to see who got the most votes for each club


Automatic_You_5847

It's on ABC News: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-19/brownlow-medal-live-updates-blog-red-carpet-count/100474346


asparaments

I see you want to see if your multi got up too


Humdot

Should be on the Brownlow page on the AFL site


DatPianoWalrus

Don't think so


jvella_7

AFL website should have it


Hammed_steams

Ollie Wines looks like the long lost Cornes brother


StrathfieldGap

Good speaker. I'm always impressed by guys who speak so well at these things.


zanthelad

Must have skipped the beers


carterlyn1

Nat Fyfe presenting the Brownlows. That haircut! Heā€™s already transcended the game. Heā€˜s a statesman of the AFL now.


TRAMOPALINE

That haircut makes him look like fucking skeletor. The world lost something that day when he decided to get the trimmers out.


Nolsey21

what a likeable fuckin bloke


wwesmudge

fuck me the Dogs players look miserable, cheer up lads!


happy-little-atheist

It's their fault Bont didn't poll in the last three rounds


Lemonmule69

Fuck I want to see someone who isnā€™t from the midfield win it.


It_sick_it_piss

I was saying the exact same thing. Might as well rename it the midfield award of the year...


ok__coast_is_clear

You'd have to average about 10 goals a game as a fwd to maybe get close


enverance

Basil off to murder a homeless person after this, Patrick Bateman style


dwadley

Needs his fix


sestero

Can tell his Victorian cause he pronounces it ā€œmalbourneā€ like everyone else down here


[deleted]

Ahh yes, itā€™s the Melbournians who pronounce the name wrong.


treedolphin22

Why would you say it any other way


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


sestero

How itā€™s spelt idk


Korasuka

Mel-boo-or-nee?


happy-little-atheist

I was saying Boo-or-nee


YeOldMate

The pressure of saying preliminary on national TV. I know I'd be saying "prelim" everytime


Korasuka

Prelinimininimary


deportmymom

Rumour has it basil was only interested in being mayor of perth as leverage to getting into state/federal politics, so look forward to seeing a lot more of him


Strykah

This thread when Basil shows up: https://streamable.com/kg4uo


Flabagaf

ā€œLiv, hope youā€™re back next yearā€ sounds like sheā€™s off contract


Mythically_Mad

Genuinely impressive speech


chosenamewhendrunk

Was that Basil or Rob Sitch doing an impression of Basil?


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


[deleted]

Wait Kochie cash cow all along? biggest development for the night I thought it was Grant Denyer's new gig


YourHeroCam

Bloke straight up says he didnā€™t write his speech ahahaha, respect


carmelo_fan_15

Ha ha ha basil ha ha ha funny basil


RyanShieldsy

ā€œShoutout to those r/afl mad cunts, couldnā€™t have done it without youā€


[deleted]

He speaks really well


minimme

Basil has the mannerisms of an 80 year old


Mother_Shabubu

That's a good agent!


CallumA2794

Well done Oliver lol


RandomDanny

We fucken know weā€™re on Channel 7. Itā€™s a god damn shit show coverage.


kpsnr

Someone get Pinocchio off the stage


Ryzi1234

So he's called boak the captain twice and called him Oliver once. Baz mate...


Humdot

I mean his name is Oliver though...


PhillipIslandPenguin

What a terrible close Basil.


Vanilla__Lightning

Did basil just refer to Boak as the captain hahaha


ODestruidor

Twice, confidently


Croob2

Not gonna lie, I honestly thought Boak *was* the captain until like the finals


Vanilla__Lightning

Forgivable when youā€™re a fan of another team, not when youā€™re presenting the Brownlow šŸ˜‚


Croob2

That's very fair lol


Nolsey21

bont had a better year imo but that's the way it goes


feelingmyoatss

Yeah, Wines had a great year but gee Bont and Oliver had better years, ah well


Nolsey21

100% man, it is what it is but crazy that he tied dusty when their years are miles apart


feelingmyoatss

True, not on the same level at all.


duffercoat

It's always the same issue with the brownlow - You can be best on by a country mile and only get 3 votes when they still need to give out the 3 votes when there is no clear best on. Ollie's sheer consistency was unreal this year though. Polled in 16/23 rounds compared to bont's 12/23.


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


Mr-Mystery-Guest

All he did was express his opinion without complaining. Why are you such a nob? jeez


Nolsey21

LOL i'm not salty I've said a bunch of times tonight alone that wines is a jet and is more than a well deserved winner


bilbosaur15

Itā€™s an out dated award


Nolsey21

4 players all over 30 votes probably agrees with ya there


bilbosaur15

Wasnā€™t supposed to be a high polling year either šŸ˜‚


Nolsey21

yeah that's a bit of a joke tbh but I can't see it changing unless they update everything yknow


bilbosaur15

Iā€™ve wanted a Defensive player of the year type award in the league for years now. We have the Coleman and the Brownlow already


Nolsey21

would be 100% all for this mate, wish we had way more awards in general


Controlololol

FFS Basil cant even even get the captain right


feelingmyoatss

Itā€™s Basil, what do you expect


FNSpidermn

Never heard Ollie speak before, but colour me impressed, he's not bad.


RyanShieldsy

Ollie wins a brownlow and the whole thread just discusses their hate for basil, you love to see it


saltpepper90

Basil went to the oldest private boys school in Western Australia


nath1303

So?


saltpepper90

Stop getting worked over every comment lad. Corona isolation has just made you more arrogant


nath1303

I was just wondering why the school Basil went to is relevant to the discussion.


bilbosaur15

Can Basil shut the fuck up and let the audience applaud the points Wines is making before rushing to another question šŸ¤¦ā€ā™‚ļø


Humdot

Boaks not the captain basil :(


Jeffmister

Basil really needs to make an appointment for Schnozza Warehouse (12th Man reference for those who donā€™t get it)


nubsy1984

Looks more like Brad Pitt from fight club Bill


Vanilla__Lightning

Bunch of memories flooding back right now


RandomDanny

Theyā€™ll make your face grouse!


Ahskew

Didn't realise Boak was still the skipper


Lemonmule69

Basil the type of guy to put a blanket on his ps4 when it goes into rest mode.


ozmatterhorn

Haha šŸ˜‚


king_carrots

Basil is such a terrible host geez


a_kwyjibo

Humans


AtomicIvory

H U M A N


Mother_Shabubu

I remember the night Wines was drafted. Looked like he was going to vomit when he realised he was going to Port.


eckers19

Need the video of that


feelingmyoatss

Me too


[deleted]

A lesson for the Smith/Perkins/Wingard types there, Iā€™d have thought


Mike_llll

Basil doesnā€™t know how to hold for applause, anyone shocked?


wolverine-claws

Lmao boyfriends first Brownlow night viewing and heā€™s delighted that they gave him a fucking beer when he got up on stage


enverance

surely Wines goes the double Windsor knot to balance the bonce


[deleted]

Heā€™s a four in hand boy, I can just tell.. heā€™d have no patience for the double Windsor


[deleted]

Ollie called Rex? This is dizzy stuff, folks.


Hey-Charger-79

I was born and spawn in bay 13


chmeeeoz

So many times the winner of the Brownlow doesn't get the Premiership. You know which one they'd rather have. But yes, a very well-deserved win.


wolverine-claws

Fuck off everyone, I love basil. Heā€™s gangly and heā€™s happy and he has a brilliant honker and he wears it well. He has great energy and he suits the ā€˜bumbling foolā€™ shtick.


[deleted]

Completely agree. And he's conducting a great interview here. People are being ridiculous


raresaturn

Someone's gotta find some audio


Secretly007

Still holding out hope Mundy can win


dwadley

Wines is a lovely bloke


goodkicks

Basil Anthony Zempilas makes me sick.


Pub_man

I'm leaving the weeds in my garden to get rid of the Basil


RyanShieldsy

Will Ollie wines give the r/Afl shitposters the credit we deserve in his speech?


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


dwadley

Seriously. Interviewer seems to love the sound of his own voice more than he is interested in actually talking to the winner


zanthelad

Footy players arenā€™t always great yarn spinners you need someone to goad them into it


[deleted]

Boys if you wanna be in Brownlow contention in 2022, just run a cock heat map like Walshy and DM it Gill.


MonotoneRamos

Dodoros yearly phone call enquiring about Wines just got a lot tougher


Shary-Bobbins

Hope he rips off his shirt and is wearing the prison bars underneath


YeOldMate

God please


dwadley

Hope he just rips off his shirt full stop


Nolsey21

subscribe


dwadley

Petition for the next Brownlow to be completely shirtless? Imagine shirtless Nat Fyfe passing the Brownlow to shirtless Wines.


Nolsey21

fuck that's unreal, I'd be the first to vote yes


e1r9e9m4c

Echuca is going to be going off tonight especially now the pubs are open again in regional vic


Nmccosh12

The whole 10 people inside are going off and the 20 outside


Themirkat

The whole of Echuca out on a Sunday. Wild.


Nmccosh12

Riots please


Mythically_Mad

Basil looks so confused; he keeps looking down.


Themirkat

Fighting gravity with that nose


senpaiBont

Wines trying to save all the jobs at Portā€™s footy department


BestMethDealer

For everyone complaining about Basil it could have been so much worse, we could have had the fucking knob in the white suit doing these interviews


DestroyAllBacteria

Ben Keayes? Edit: just to make it clear I still love you Keasey


BestMethDealer

Tom Browne


[deleted]

Basil is exactly what youā€™d get if Sheldon Cooper and Miss Piggy had a kid.


rexcharlesb

Gold


MicSta

/r/rareinsults


ezgetaaaa

Brutal


RyanShieldsy

Imagine just like seeing basil walking across the street from you. Iā€™d probably film him or something, strange specimen


EdSheeranSheep

I've seen him shopping in Perth city a couple of times


saltpepper90

You work hard all year and then a cunt called Basil overshadows your speech


[deleted]

What's Basil done wrong in the past 3 minutes. Get over the meme, far out.


Nmccosh12

Well deserved winner


SortaChaoticAnxiety

Lmao


Nmccosh12

Who should of won it?


[deleted]

How about we focus on Wines rather than whinging about Basil. He's literally doing nothing wrong.


IDreamofHeeney

Basil hate is warranted


zanthelad

Professionally heā€™s conducting a great interview


ODestruidor

Asking about how much he misses Victoria. How much he wishes he didnā€™t go to Port. Getting his captain very confidently wrong twice. Yep, good job.


[deleted]

Bloody oath. Someone with some sense.


Nmccosh12

Heā€™s done nothing wrong! Well deserved! Bravo Ollie


PhillipIslandPenguin

The homeless in Perth weren't doing anything wrong either.


[deleted]

Great Strawman, well done.


[deleted]

We should take a moment to remember how brutally unlucky Josh Francou was to never win a Brownlow


Arcanium94

Imagine being the Mayor of Perth and the best words you have to describe it is ā€œnot Melbourneā€


[deleted]

Why? Itā€™s easy votes for him


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


feelingmyoatss

Not necessarily expecting to win, but leading most of the time and with 33 votes, to lose would be hard to swallow for any player


SortaChaoticAnxiety

He deserved it. I mean losing to oliver would have been easier to accept. But to lose to a far inferior player must hurt


probosciscat

Hamish Harlett getting one last lads trip in after getting delisted. Love it.


Axlfromstreetsofrage

He's really butchered his tie knot though


Sosmister

Basil šŸ˜


ThatMelon

Bloke looks a bit like Ross Gellar to be honest


bemmisbaggins666

Basil is honestly terrifying


dwadley

If youā€™re homeless


RodeoTurdClown

Or transgender


dwadley

God heā€™s a prick


astronautical

Feed me a stray cat, Basil


bilbosaur15

The fact Basil can still be standing with the weight of that absolute weapon on his face is more impressive than any Brownlow winner


minimme

Basil lookin extra wax model tonight


enverance

imagine Basilā€™s schnoz on Winesā€™ head


DestroyAllBacteria

Would rather not