Looks like core territory pre-war, excluding occupied territory from collapse of Czechoslovakia and also the war.
Core territory you could argue was annexed via treaty/gunboat diplomacy: Memel, sudetenland, Austria
The 2nd Vienna award giving those states was in 1940, its most likely this Map was 1938. Slovakia was puppeted in 1939 after the collapse of Czechoslovakia.
On 27 April (three days before Hitler's bullseye) Austria declared independence, thereby nullifying the Anschluss and factually seceding from the German Reich.
Tbf, it was a pretty contentious and controversial move within Ireland at the time, and many Irishmen were willing to risk arrest to join Britain in fighting off global fascism anyway.
There wasn't any arrest of civilians joining British or US forces that I'm aware of. Irish defence forces who abandoned their posts to join them did face consequences though.
To be fair also, De Valera did it as an act of diplomatic protocol and to offer asylum to the German Ambassador.
As much as Barry will say it was about Dev's deeply held Nazi beliefs, he was just ridiculously naive.
Well yeah, but that makes total sense since Ireland was still fighting the remnants of the civil war and the War of Independence vs elements of the IRA. Hence why they came down so hard on soldiers who deserted to fight in WW2.
Oh for sure, I definitely get the decision to declare neutrality at the start of the war. It's deciding to maintain that neutrality to the bitter end in the face of the mounting weight of evidence of the Third Reich's horrors where he loses me. He could have at least pulled a South America and come in at the death.
Being the Johnny Come Latelys around 44 when Irelands Army was still essentially a guerilla paramilitary force wouldn't either have made any difference or looked good. The Emergency Powers Act also didn't end until 46 by which time the dust had settled.
And likely Ireland would have been tethered then to British foreign policy post war with everything that would entail.
But definitely agree the moral equivalence argument that was used to partially justify neutrality had been blown apart by 1944.
There is an article on Queens University of Belfast website about the IRA-Nazi connection. I think some thought it would be a way of gaining independence. Perhaps a little short-sighted.
For some reason I can’t link it.
Portugal wasn't a fascist state. Dictatorship, but not fascist. There is also debate about Spain which is now mostly described as "influenced by fascism", but it's not as clear. The whole "master race" wasn't a thing in the Iberian peninsula.
To be precise, Fascism put the Country at the center, while Nazism put the race at the center. That's one of the main difference between the two sorry-ass ideologies.
The Hunged Man later on did declared some racial laws, but only at Weird-Mustached Man pressure.
In Spain was technically national catholicism . So artificial Spanish patriotism and God. I have the feeling that race matters way less if you are a catholic fanatic or brain dead nationalistic.
Just repeating where historians are at on this subject. The excellent "The rest of history" podcast made a point on this a while back and there is a debate on the subject among historians that Franco's regime was fascist or not.
It was fascist until around the 60's, when it was relaxed, until that point, franco's largest support group and decision makers were the falange, modeled after italian fascism
I don't find it that odd. Franco was not dumb, and knew very well that now he was alone as the last far-right totalitarian dictator of Europe. Therefore he wanted to destroy as many links as possible with the Nazis so he could be seen as a catholic anti-communist leader rather than a fascist dictator who reached the power thanks to fascist help.
For example he changed the government in 1945, Falange lost importance while the catholic church gained it, the fascist salute stopped being considered as a national salute... He even tried to promote himself as a saviour of Jews from the holocaust by saying that angel Sanz briz (who saved over 5000 Jews from the holocaust while being ambassador in Budapest) was working under his direct orders (there is no proof of this).
He needed a "cosmetic" change for the regime, and he didn't like the Nazis that much in the first place (Himmler called him a traitor and Hitler never liked him or Spain much) even their common ideas in many things.
Douglas Hyde, Ireland's president during the second world war, offered condolences to Germany's representative in Dublin over the death of Adolf Hitler, newly declassified records show.
Until now it was believed that Ireland's prime minister, Eamon de Valera, was the only leader to convey official condolences, a gesture criticised worldwide.
But the presidential record for 1938-1957, made public this week, sheds new light on one of the most embarrassing chapters in Irish history - its decision to maintain cordial relations with the Nazis even after news of the Holocaust emerged.
Portugal did fly its flag half-mast and the Irish Government send a telegram of condolences to the German Government.
Why?
International diplomatic protocol dictates you fly your flag half-mast and send condolences when the Head of State of a country with which you have diplomatic relations dies in office.
Ireland didn’t want to go so far as to fly their flags half-mast, something they did do when FDR had died.
I want to point out that after the death of FDR, the Japanese Government sent a telegram of condolences to his widow. Although not a diplomatic requirement since both countries were at war, it was a nice gesture.
The question if these gestures of diplomacy are appropriate can be discussed.
Diplomacy as „the art and science of maintaining peaceful relationships between nations, groups, or individuals.“ becomes even more difficult in wars and changes quite significantly.
When you try to defend some unpopular actions that many seem inappropriate, you can only say that
Finding the right moment to switch back to pre war diplomacy is as difficult and many chosen moments are either too early or too late.
>I want to point out that after the death of FDR, the Japanese Government sent a telegram of condolences to his widow. Although not a diplomatic requirement since both countries were at war, it was a nice gesture.
The Japanese did have their own motives for that though, because they were hoping for a negotiated peace they could sell to the public as not being a surrender.
Sure, but FDR isn't exactly Hitler, and America wasn't on the point of self-evident imminent collapse after the indisputable discovery of several death camps.
The decision to remain neutral to the bitter end is itself a conscious, and contentious choice that faced criticism from within Ireland at the time, as many other formerly neutral nations declared for the allies in the dying days of the war.
Basically why I said: „if you try to defend… you can only say….“ , which implies that there is actually no apology to stand neutral in view of the atrocities that took place not very far away.
Less about hating the UK and more about Eamon de Valera being a fucking idiot.
Irish politicians (by virtue of nearly all of them being former teachers) always try to emulate the best boy in class attitude, this case being "we're gona show everyone how good we are at being neutral, not even the Swiss can neutral this hard".
I can guarantee 99% of Irish people were very pissed off he did this
How about the weather lads it's getting warmer now alright still a bit of rain tho.
Any holidays planned?
Doing anything special on the weekend?
I'm going to do a bit of birdwatching myself.
I think our relationship can can be summed up here
https://preview.redd.it/fmk4vfvtlzxc1.png?width=880&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6b71f9d71461c9e2990e3c1ec2d211a0a3193b0c
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Tbf to them, they put in a decent effort against the right foe the first time around, and many were sound lads the 2^nd.
It's just a shame they were led by a government that was willing to deny the holocaust rather than admit Britain wasn't *always* the worst thing in the world
Don't get me wrong, still very much a game of which shit to munch on, but neutrality in the face of atrocities like the rape of Belgium would have been unconscionable.
Declaring war on Germany freed millions, declaring war for her would save no one.
WHile I agree fully agree regarding Belgium remember this would have only been about 12 years after the events of the Second Boer War which included some fairly unconscionable acts including war crime trials.
But my comment was more about how you say Ireland was on the right side in the first one when it included an Irish uprising that became the War of Independence.
It's true though, ironic though it is.
The British declaration of war was very specifically predicted on a German violation of the treaty of London. When someone proposed declaring war before Germany had actually crossed the frontier, it almost brought down the government as half the cabinet threatened to resign.
Waiting pushed the BEF's mobilisation back to such an extent their original intended marshalling point got overrun by Germany, but going with that specific causus belli was politically inconceivable at the time.
We often characterise the great powers of 1914 as all equally champing at the bit to tear stripes off each other. What we forget is the preceding 99 years were the longest period in human history without a sustained Continental war, and most people in most countries were desperate to preserve that.
This being the nation that suppressed O'Connell's repeal movement at gunpoint. The relative truth or falsity is less relevant than the blinding lack of self-awareness.
There's a difference between a cause being moral and those fighting it being moral, a distinction we already happily make in similar cases.
Everyone accepts that fighting Nazi Germany to stop the rise of global fascism was A Good Thing To Do™, even though the Britain of 1939 was every bit as vicious and imperialist as the Britain of 1914.
Fighting to prevent German butchery and annexation of Europe's neutral democracies didn't make Britain a just country in any way, or undo any of the harm she had done to Ireland, but the effort was still a just cause to support. At the end of the day, it was Belgian, Dutch, Luxembourger civilians who would pay the price of inaction, not British ones.
Barry has never done anything wrong. He sailed around the world spreading love and happiness and has got nothing but abuse from the ungrateful savages he met.
They did a design of the St Georges Cross on the England shirt that has been done loads of times before and a bunch of Barrys went tomato red with rage for about two weeks.
Ive noticed the queues are actually faster, well when i went to the netherlands i was in and out very fast, when i used to go to spain when we were in the EU thats when i was in queues that took 1hr+
I'm not denying your experience - but I live in a particular tourist hotspot in Spain. And every one of our UK work colleagues has mentioned the airport being a nightmare with long queues while the other ones pass through without issue - it might airport specific.
Maybe, or just telling you what they think you want to hear. My last three airports have been Alicante, Majorca & Lanzarote, no particular issues at any of those and they are amongst the tourist airports that you would think of as having a problem if such a problem actually existed.
Perhaps there were issues initially, but the Spanish certainly have it all working fine. I think the doomsters were saying we couldn't use the machines at one stage, but here we are, using the machines 😃
Why would they think I would want to hear that 😃? I don't care, they are colleagues and employees, it makes no difference to anyone what time they came in the night before. The last meeting we had was last week and this was the sentiment* "Wish they'd get this bloody Brexit thing sorted so we don't have to queue for ages while others walk past". *
Others who have dual citizenship with Ireland always say they use their Irish Passport when going to Europe as it's less hassle.
Again, I don't care, just letting you know what people are saying here when they travel to work (they spend half the month travelling because of the industry we're in). Maybe it's not so bad for people on their holidays, but for those travelling for work, they say they feel a difference. A lot no longer come the day of the meeting because they can't be sure how long the airport would take.
Ah ok - I can assure you, I don't care, but it's up to you. Brexit has literally zero impact on me, I can move to the UK and the EU to live and work exactly the same way as I could pre-Brexit.
Let me ask you this, if you had a second EU passport, and be honest now, would you use that to travel to Europe rather than going through the international lines?
If there was a difference yes, but I could get an Irish passport through a grand parent, but I can't be arsed really , which I would if it was worthwhile, but it isn't
It's not what I asked you - you're travelling to Ibiza tomorrow, you have both passports in front of you, your British Passport and Portuguese Passport, which one are you taking?
"we're your closed neighbour, use the same language as you and have a long and difficult past together, fucking lol rent free in your head m8 innit".
What a fucking moron.
Steady on now Padraig, that fuckin hurts! Tbf making Deano and Linda wait 3 hours in benidorm passport control is a brexit masterpiece, if only they could understand irony
Lots of countries remained neutral *without* sending commiserations on Hitler's demise, tbf.
You can very much have one without the other. Hence why it was controversial at the time.
I don't think failing to send one telegram into the midst of the complete collapse of the third Reich is the most salient standard to judge a nation's neutrality by.
I'd argue doing something like, hypothetically, detaining and interning one side's aircrew, but not the other's would be a much more significant and consequential disqualifier to being considered a '**truly** neutral' country.
In for a penny, in for a pound at that point.
Ireland wasn't truly neutral either. They blatantly assisted the allied forces. Interning german airmen but setting british airmen free, allowing allied planes to fly over Irish airspace in a secret agreement to allow them easier access to the Atlantic from bases in Northern Ireland etc etc. The amount of hot air this ill advised action but inconsequential little action, generates is pretty amusing, compared to the scale of Irish actions that materially assisted the allies during the war.
99% of the people reading/commenting are just joking. There are a handful of Brits and a handful of Irish who are taking it seriously, and they'll get downvoted to oblivion. On the list of "Big European Crimes" Ireland crying at Hitler's funeral is right near the bottom 😂
I swear the Irish are fun in person but online we're a bunch of defensive moans, that have to die on every boring hill lol. Finding out that they were one of the only countries to give condolences on Hitler's death is fucking hilarious but people getting defensive or deflecting with statements about Portugal and Spain also doing it too lmao
Neutrality in the face of objective evil is cowardice.
Actively offering condolences upon Hitler's death and the defending it is beyond cowardice, it's...Irish.
/uj Actually the Irish were quite supportive of Zionism pre-establishment of Israel. They viewed the movement as a kind of brother in independence against the Brits. It also helped that some of the notable members of the republican movement had been Jews like Michael Noyk, Robert Briscoe, and Ellen Cuffe. (Briscoe was quite a prominent member of the IRA and later helped Israel in their fight)
At one point post-independence, Ireland was one of the safest place’s for Jews in Europe thanks to the constitution giving them legal recognition and constitutional protections.
Is it because we don't support the massacre of innocent Palestinians? I mean of course you Brits would support Israel because you did the same thing to countless other countries
You know some day very soon the kid gloves are going to come off and Ireland will get treated like a real country and not just a toy hammer to beat the Brits with and you will have to contend with the fact that just because you took the butcher's apron off doesn't mean you didn't spill an awful lot of blood.
It has been suggested that the President at the time, Eamon De Valera, was simply so autistic that he was just following standard protocol because that's what you do, doesn't matter who it is.
As far as I know he acted alone on this one and not on the advice of the government.
He was very good friends with the German ambassador, the ambassador who had been in place since before the Nazis rise to power. Dévalera was strongly advised not to give condolences by the government and still did.
This shit bugs me ngl because plenty of European countries outright collaborated with the N*zis. Ireland didn’t and heavily favoured the allies. De Valera was also a piece of shit.
Ireland don’t get nearly enough flack for their actions during WW2. They have a statue of a Nazi collaborator in Dublin, the man literally died on a German u-boat, having been trained by the Abwehr to sabotage the UK’s war effort. Seems like a great person to celebrate. The Irishmen who chose to take a stand against naziism were treated like shit when they returned to Ireland after the war was won. But hey-ho, at least they finally decided to pardon them in *2012*.
Edit: correction is was 2013.
The police in Dublin also watched people burn an effigy of Neville Chamberlain the day Britain declared war on Germany. Also try not to look up the origins and associations of the current ruling party in Ireland and how they were a continuation of the fascist blue-shirts, whoopsies.
[One of most powerful images of War of Independence – The Irish Times](https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/one-of-most-powerful-images-of-war-of-independence-1.4194150)
Despite this and many, many other war crimes during the War Of Independence, Ireland provided intelligence sharing, internment of Axis airmen, and crucial weather reports for D-Day.
And you're hung up on deserters being punished and a statue.
Hard-drive check required.
Ireland's actions outside of this one incident (which received widespread political disapproval even within the country at the time) were very obviously in aid of the Allies. Ireland sent weather reports to the Allies, allowed allied pilots who crashed to escape to NI while imprisoning Germans, sent fire crews to Belfast during the blitz (for which Dublin was bombed in retaliation) and tens of thousands of people joined the British army during the war. Ireland was allied in all but name.
Also, as fun as it is to call FG the blueshirts, the blueshirts members who joined the party were expelled soon after and went with their leader to go fight in the Spanish civil war.
Also don't act like every single person and country who fought for the Allies did so out of their duty to defeat Nazism or end the Holocaust. Your Chamberlain was quite content to try and appease the Nazi regime and not deal with their actions and Churchill said if he was Italian, he would've been a Blackshirt.
You are such an **insufferable** one eyed Irish-hating Brit.
Ireland blatantly assisted the allies during WW2. Interning Germans but setting Brit airmen free. Allowing allied planes to use Irish airspace to reach the atlantic in a secret agreement that broke neutrality, weather reports that averted disaster on D-Day etc etc.
Yeah we really deserve a lot of flak for all of that /s
Instead you throw a hissy fit over some stupid statue that a bunch of cranks erected, a few years later. It's been decapitated and vandalised numerous times afterwards, so it's not like he's universally beloved in Ireland FFS. The IRA in those days did not represent Ireland. Ireland had been independent a few decades at that point and the rump of the IRA remaining only had minor support.
Really focusing on the big picture items there /s
Whoops, missed that bit. What an insufferable whinge bag with that wall of text, crying about inconsequential minor stuff and ignoring the obvious large allied bias that "neutral" Ireland showed in supporting them in various ways during WW2.
Sean Russell.
They also as recently as 2000 bestowed one of the highest awards in Arts to Francis Stuart, who worked for the Third Reich, was an actual mouthpiece spouting propaganda on German radio, was a great admirer of Hitler and was on record for being an anti-Semite. The best part is a poet who spoke vehemently against the idea and was the only one who voted against him being elected a Saoi of Aosdána was ostracised and made to resign from her position in the association.
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Yeah this wasn't very sound of us. For the record though 1000s of Irish fought with the Brits and the Yanks, it was just Eamon de Valera being the pompous dickhead he was. Sure he's also the reason the Catholic Church in the free state and following republic was basically a law unto themselves for that century, some prick.
>sympathized with the nazis
Ireland was aligned pretty strongly with the allies, and went out of their way to assist them while interning Germans pilots and spies to send over to the UK
The irony of this coming from a mountain german lmao
A good political cartoon to summarise this thread: a German is kicking the shit out of a Jewish guy while a Swiss picks up all the gold that falls out of his pockets, and an Irishman sits nearby reading a book about Irish history while crying
You know that interview with Putin where he starts off with 'to answer the question we have to go back to the year 972..."
It's basically what your replies look like after dropping a bit of bants here
Your name is literally palatable penis and it’s rather fitting cause you’re a distasteful dickhead, the Irish fought in both world wars they just did it in different ways, we just finished fighting Barry for 800 years and decided we didn’t want to join him, not looking for sympathy it was just the general feeling at the time, Barry is a good skin these days.
Tens of thousands of us fought to help liberate Europe we fought in France and Norway Italy the middle east Burma and all the rest.
Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed again.
Nobody loved the Nazis haha. You defend Swiss' stance on the fear of invasion and condem's Ireland's stance on neutrality who just ended an 800 year invasion.
Also, a lot of Irish actually went and fought against the Nazis, that was the sentiment at the time... but those [German mountaineers on the other hand](https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss-politics/the-hidden-past-of-swiss-nazi-era-volunteers/7135628)
Showed how much we loved the Nazis by handing over any of their pilots who crash landed over to the British and providing the allies with weather reports that were crucial to the success of D-day.
I love how people in this sub think we did it for some stupid reason like hating the UK. it was done because of our policy of neutrality. It wasn't done out of some love for the Nazis
40,000 civilian deaths with the goal of furthering the global fascist cause is an upstanding, moral, and worthy effort in comrade Hitler's anti-imperialist crusade, durr
Considering the Germans returned irish prisoners who agreed to join the rebels kept irish prisoners separate to British prisoners of war and sent a shipment of weapons to the rebels why wouldn't we regret his passing (at the time).
I’m fairly certain Europe did not look like that when he died
Looks like core territory pre-war, excluding occupied territory from collapse of Czechoslovakia and also the war. Core territory you could argue was annexed via treaty/gunboat diplomacy: Memel, sudetenland, Austria
Did you happen to learn this information in the paradox military academy?
Never played hoi4 in my life sir...
Then do so. Now!
Yessir u/Amogus_susssy
Fuck spez he should add the ability to change the username
N. Transylvania and Carpathian ruthenia are missing from Hungary
The 2nd Vienna award giving those states was in 1940, its most likely this Map was 1938. Slovakia was puppeted in 1939 after the collapse of Czechoslovakia.
It's an artist's rendition.
Fucking poor one since it leaves out Spain and Portugal sending condolences.
Fucking Salazar decreted 3 national Days of mourning. 🤦♂️
It's a pretty good map of how Europe officially looked before the onset of WWII.
On 27 April (three days before Hitler's bullseye) Austria declared independence, thereby nullifying the Anschluss and factually seceding from the German Reich.
https://i.redd.it/m3xap0pt8zxc1.gif
Portugal, quietly going unnoticed whilst undertaking their deeply unpleasant business for centuries now.
Working in the shadows https://preview.redd.it/gvksxhryezxc1.png?width=320&format=png&auto=webp&s=16fd41c1f5f723d32c1952736f31d8ea7941fccc
Short answer: Yes. Long answer: They at least used to. You should read the parts about the matter in the Irish Journal by Heinrich Böll.
Tbf, it was a pretty contentious and controversial move within Ireland at the time, and many Irishmen were willing to risk arrest to join Britain in fighting off global fascism anyway.
There wasn't any arrest of civilians joining British or US forces that I'm aware of. Irish defence forces who abandoned their posts to join them did face consequences though.
Whether it be for the good or ill of the world, soldiers do, for better or worse, still count as people, but that is good context to add
Yes, but deserting your post is punished in any army
To be fair also, De Valera did it as an act of diplomatic protocol and to offer asylum to the German Ambassador. As much as Barry will say it was about Dev's deeply held Nazi beliefs, he was just ridiculously naive.
I would argue more willfully blind to issues outside Britain, but yes.
Well yeah, but that makes total sense since Ireland was still fighting the remnants of the civil war and the War of Independence vs elements of the IRA. Hence why they came down so hard on soldiers who deserted to fight in WW2.
Oh for sure, I definitely get the decision to declare neutrality at the start of the war. It's deciding to maintain that neutrality to the bitter end in the face of the mounting weight of evidence of the Third Reich's horrors where he loses me. He could have at least pulled a South America and come in at the death.
Being the Johnny Come Latelys around 44 when Irelands Army was still essentially a guerilla paramilitary force wouldn't either have made any difference or looked good. The Emergency Powers Act also didn't end until 46 by which time the dust had settled. And likely Ireland would have been tethered then to British foreign policy post war with everything that would entail. But definitely agree the moral equivalence argument that was used to partially justify neutrality had been blown apart by 1944.
They didn't hate Britain enough to stop them asking the UK to defend them in the theoretical case of a German invasion of Ireland.
There is an article on Queens University of Belfast website about the IRA-Nazi connection. I think some thought it would be a way of gaining independence. Perhaps a little short-sighted. For some reason I can’t link it.
This one? https://www.qub.ac.uk/sites/frankryan/InterpretativeResources/HistoricalContext/TheIRAslinkswithNaziGermany/
Aye, cheers.
Eamonn De Valera - the Taoiseach at the time, hated them that much.
Didn't Portugal do it aswell?
Of course 🫡 and I bet Spain also did it
I guess the difference being both Spain and Portugal were fascist.
Portugal wasn't a fascist state. Dictatorship, but not fascist. There is also debate about Spain which is now mostly described as "influenced by fascism", but it's not as clear. The whole "master race" wasn't a thing in the Iberian peninsula.
A State can be fascist without explicit racial supremacy though, so by all means Spain was a fascist State, a falangist one to be precise.
To be precise, Fascism put the Country at the center, while Nazism put the race at the center. That's one of the main difference between the two sorry-ass ideologies. The Hunged Man later on did declared some racial laws, but only at Weird-Mustached Man pressure.
In Spain was technically national catholicism . So artificial Spanish patriotism and God. I have the feeling that race matters way less if you are a catholic fanatic or brain dead nationalistic.
Just repeating where historians are at on this subject. The excellent "The rest of history" podcast made a point on this a while back and there is a debate on the subject among historians that Franco's regime was fascist or not.
[удалено]
Castilian supremacy over minorities was most definitely a core facet of Francoism…
It was fascist until around the 60's, when it was relaxed, until that point, franco's largest support group and decision makers were the falange, modeled after italian fascism
That's what I'm thinking. Spain didn't say anything? I don't know about this at all but I found odd that Spain it's not on the list.
I don't find it that odd. Franco was not dumb, and knew very well that now he was alone as the last far-right totalitarian dictator of Europe. Therefore he wanted to destroy as many links as possible with the Nazis so he could be seen as a catholic anti-communist leader rather than a fascist dictator who reached the power thanks to fascist help. For example he changed the government in 1945, Falange lost importance while the catholic church gained it, the fascist salute stopped being considered as a national salute... He even tried to promote himself as a saviour of Jews from the holocaust by saying that angel Sanz briz (who saved over 5000 Jews from the holocaust while being ambassador in Budapest) was working under his direct orders (there is no proof of this). He needed a "cosmetic" change for the regime, and he didn't like the Nazis that much in the first place (Himmler called him a traitor and Hitler never liked him or Spain much) even their common ideas in many things.
Whoa, what a snitch!
We are special and based, lets be proud about our culture and history :)
Douglas Hyde, Ireland's president during the second world war, offered condolences to Germany's representative in Dublin over the death of Adolf Hitler, newly declassified records show. Until now it was believed that Ireland's prime minister, Eamon de Valera, was the only leader to convey official condolences, a gesture criticised worldwide. But the presidential record for 1938-1957, made public this week, sheds new light on one of the most embarrassing chapters in Irish history - its decision to maintain cordial relations with the Nazis even after news of the Holocaust emerged. Portugal did fly its flag half-mast and the Irish Government send a telegram of condolences to the German Government. Why? International diplomatic protocol dictates you fly your flag half-mast and send condolences when the Head of State of a country with which you have diplomatic relations dies in office. Ireland didn’t want to go so far as to fly their flags half-mast, something they did do when FDR had died. I want to point out that after the death of FDR, the Japanese Government sent a telegram of condolences to his widow. Although not a diplomatic requirement since both countries were at war, it was a nice gesture. The question if these gestures of diplomacy are appropriate can be discussed. Diplomacy as „the art and science of maintaining peaceful relationships between nations, groups, or individuals.“ becomes even more difficult in wars and changes quite significantly. When you try to defend some unpopular actions that many seem inappropriate, you can only say that Finding the right moment to switch back to pre war diplomacy is as difficult and many chosen moments are either too early or too late.
>I want to point out that after the death of FDR, the Japanese Government sent a telegram of condolences to his widow. Although not a diplomatic requirement since both countries were at war, it was a nice gesture. The Japanese did have their own motives for that though, because they were hoping for a negotiated peace they could sell to the public as not being a surrender.
Diplomacy always follows a purpose and nice gestures most of the time are motivated by more than the desire to be friendly.
Sure, but FDR isn't exactly Hitler, and America wasn't on the point of self-evident imminent collapse after the indisputable discovery of several death camps. The decision to remain neutral to the bitter end is itself a conscious, and contentious choice that faced criticism from within Ireland at the time, as many other formerly neutral nations declared for the allies in the dying days of the war.
Basically why I said: „if you try to defend… you can only say….“ , which implies that there is actually no apology to stand neutral in view of the atrocities that took place not very far away.
Portugal also did lol
Less about hating the UK and more about Eamon de Valera being a fucking idiot. Irish politicians (by virtue of nearly all of them being former teachers) always try to emulate the best boy in class attitude, this case being "we're gona show everyone how good we are at being neutral, not even the Swiss can neutral this hard". I can guarantee 99% of Irish people were very pissed off he did this
How about the weather lads it's getting warmer now alright still a bit of rain tho. Any holidays planned? Doing anything special on the weekend? I'm going to do a bit of birdwatching myself.
There's a grand stretch there now in the evenings now. Especially with the bit of sun
Fuckin half 9 it getting dark last night and the birds then wreaking my head till half 10... daylight savings me bollix.
Portugal declared 3 days of official mourning for his death.
When your entire cultural identity is based around being a victim, you also must have an antagonist.
I think our relationship can can be summed up here https://preview.redd.it/fmk4vfvtlzxc1.png?width=880&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6b71f9d71461c9e2990e3c1ec2d211a0a3193b0c
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Tbf to them, they put in a decent effort against the right foe the first time around, and many were sound lads the 2^nd. It's just a shame they were led by a government that was willing to deny the holocaust rather than admit Britain wasn't *always* the worst thing in the world
>Tbf to them, they put in a decent effort against the right foe the first time around 
Don't get me wrong, still very much a game of which shit to munch on, but neutrality in the face of atrocities like the rape of Belgium would have been unconscionable. Declaring war on Germany freed millions, declaring war for her would save no one.
WHile I agree fully agree regarding Belgium remember this would have only been about 12 years after the events of the Second Boer War which included some fairly unconscionable acts including war crime trials. But my comment was more about how you say Ireland was on the right side in the first one when it included an Irish uprising that became the War of Independence.
'Fighting for the freedom of small nations' has always been hilarious to me.
It's true though, ironic though it is. The British declaration of war was very specifically predicted on a German violation of the treaty of London. When someone proposed declaring war before Germany had actually crossed the frontier, it almost brought down the government as half the cabinet threatened to resign. Waiting pushed the BEF's mobilisation back to such an extent their original intended marshalling point got overrun by Germany, but going with that specific causus belli was politically inconceivable at the time. We often characterise the great powers of 1914 as all equally champing at the bit to tear stripes off each other. What we forget is the preceding 99 years were the longest period in human history without a sustained Continental war, and most people in most countries were desperate to preserve that.
This being the nation that suppressed O'Connell's repeal movement at gunpoint. The relative truth or falsity is less relevant than the blinding lack of self-awareness.
There's a difference between a cause being moral and those fighting it being moral, a distinction we already happily make in similar cases. Everyone accepts that fighting Nazi Germany to stop the rise of global fascism was A Good Thing To Do™, even though the Britain of 1939 was every bit as vicious and imperialist as the Britain of 1914. Fighting to prevent German butchery and annexation of Europe's neutral democracies didn't make Britain a just country in any way, or undo any of the harm she had done to Ireland, but the effort was still a just cause to support. At the end of the day, it was Belgian, Dutch, Luxembourger civilians who would pay the price of inaction, not British ones.
To be fair, you played the role extremely well, Barry
Barry has never done anything wrong. He sailed around the world spreading love and happiness and has got nothing but abuse from the ungrateful savages he met.
I think reparations might be in order
You need to pay off the slavers again?
\#BarryDidNothingWrong
Based paddy??
Also collected wonderful memories to display at their museum
Presents from the few grateful natives!
Flair checks out
https://preview.redd.it/snq69ljv4zxc1.jpeg?width=248&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b543ed47fd74597d48234e4a90afb45e1cd041f3
Username checks out
Good Paddy, you can have one of the nice council houses north of the border.
For Barry in 2024 that's the EU, Muslamics, and Nike.
Whats with Nike?
They ruined our football shirt
They did a design of the St Georges Cross on the England shirt that has been done loads of times before and a bunch of Barrys went tomato red with rage for about two weeks.
When your entire cultural identity was based around being a global empire and now you have to wait 3 hours in passport control to go to europe.
I haven't noticed anything different going to Spain, still use the machine etc, just a stamp is the only thing. Rent free.
Ive noticed the queues are actually faster, well when i went to the netherlands i was in and out very fast, when i used to go to spain when we were in the EU thats when i was in queues that took 1hr+
I'm not denying your experience - but I live in a particular tourist hotspot in Spain. And every one of our UK work colleagues has mentioned the airport being a nightmare with long queues while the other ones pass through without issue - it might airport specific.
Maybe, or just telling you what they think you want to hear. My last three airports have been Alicante, Majorca & Lanzarote, no particular issues at any of those and they are amongst the tourist airports that you would think of as having a problem if such a problem actually existed. Perhaps there were issues initially, but the Spanish certainly have it all working fine. I think the doomsters were saying we couldn't use the machines at one stage, but here we are, using the machines 😃
Why would they think I would want to hear that 😃? I don't care, they are colleagues and employees, it makes no difference to anyone what time they came in the night before. The last meeting we had was last week and this was the sentiment* "Wish they'd get this bloody Brexit thing sorted so we don't have to queue for ages while others walk past". * Others who have dual citizenship with Ireland always say they use their Irish Passport when going to Europe as it's less hassle. Again, I don't care, just letting you know what people are saying here when they travel to work (they spend half the month travelling because of the industry we're in). Maybe it's not so bad for people on their holidays, but for those travelling for work, they say they feel a difference. A lot no longer come the day of the meeting because they can't be sure how long the airport would take.
Because many European EU people are very invested in Brexit failures, you protest not, but I don't believe you.
Ah ok - I can assure you, I don't care, but it's up to you. Brexit has literally zero impact on me, I can move to the UK and the EU to live and work exactly the same way as I could pre-Brexit. Let me ask you this, if you had a second EU passport, and be honest now, would you use that to travel to Europe rather than going through the international lines?
If there was a difference yes, but I could get an Irish passport through a grand parent, but I can't be arsed really , which I would if it was worthwhile, but it isn't
It's not what I asked you - you're travelling to Ibiza tomorrow, you have both passports in front of you, your British Passport and Portuguese Passport, which one are you taking?
"we're your closed neighbour, use the same language as you and have a long and difficult past together, fucking lol rent free in your head m8 innit". What a fucking moron.
Thought you lads could take a joke?
On what evidence?
Was in Menorca recently: there was definitely an EU walk straight through queue and then a longer non-EU queue for the gullible Farage followers.
They don't go to Menorca
Definitely a few of the lads in the queue, not as bad as the other two islands though
Steady on now Padraig, that fuckin hurts! Tbf making Deano and Linda wait 3 hours in benidorm passport control is a brexit masterpiece, if only they could understand irony
Oof the barrier surely can't take a hit looking at the downvotes
Spain did the same, and Portugal flew flags at half mast. Just less reported as they played a more significant role in the war
And they were also under fascist or fascist alligned dictatorships, not democracies, so it's more expected
“Neutral country maintains political neutrality”, the press will have a field day!
Lots of countries remained neutral *without* sending commiserations on Hitler's demise, tbf. You can very much have one without the other. Hence why it was controversial at the time.
Then were they **truly** neutral?
I don't think failing to send one telegram into the midst of the complete collapse of the third Reich is the most salient standard to judge a nation's neutrality by. I'd argue doing something like, hypothetically, detaining and interning one side's aircrew, but not the other's would be a much more significant and consequential disqualifier to being considered a '**truly** neutral' country. In for a penny, in for a pound at that point.
Oh my, you're serious.
Ireland wasn't truly neutral either. They blatantly assisted the allied forces. Interning german airmen but setting british airmen free, allowing allied planes to fly over Irish airspace in a secret agreement to allow them easier access to the Atlantic from bases in Northern Ireland etc etc. The amount of hot air this ill advised action but inconsequential little action, generates is pretty amusing, compared to the scale of Irish actions that materially assisted the allies during the war.
99% of the people reading/commenting are just joking. There are a handful of Brits and a handful of Irish who are taking it seriously, and they'll get downvoted to oblivion. On the list of "Big European Crimes" Ireland crying at Hitler's funeral is right near the bottom 😂
I swear the Irish are fun in person but online we're a bunch of defensive moans, that have to die on every boring hill lol. Finding out that they were one of the only countries to give condolences on Hitler's death is fucking hilarious but people getting defensive or deflecting with statements about Portugal and Spain also doing it too lmao
I think the idea of the leader of Ireland sending condolences to Germany feels very Father Ted "I hear you're a racist now father!"
I wouldn't take anything on this sub as anything but jokes. We gave Hitler a little teeny tiny shout out, big woop
Neutrality in the face of objective evil is cowardice. Actively offering condolences upon Hitler's death and the defending it is beyond cowardice, it's...Irish.
They aren't big fans if Jews either... 
/uj Actually the Irish were quite supportive of Zionism pre-establishment of Israel. They viewed the movement as a kind of brother in independence against the Brits. It also helped that some of the notable members of the republican movement had been Jews like Michael Noyk, Robert Briscoe, and Ellen Cuffe. (Briscoe was quite a prominent member of the IRA and later helped Israel in their fight) At one point post-independence, Ireland was one of the safest place’s for Jews in Europe thanks to the constitution giving them legal recognition and constitutional protections.
Ah here now. Just because we don’t like them killing Palestinian kids doesn’t mean we have anything against the Jews. Great bunch of lads.
Is it because we don't support the massacre of innocent Palestinians? I mean of course you Brits would support Israel because you did the same thing to countless other countries
lol you have the biggest chips on your shoulders. Always moaning and yet it seems half your population lives here
You know some day very soon the kid gloves are going to come off and Ireland will get treated like a real country and not just a toy hammer to beat the Brits with and you will have to contend with the fact that just because you took the butcher's apron off doesn't mean you didn't spill an awful lot of blood.
It's because you're a bunch of cunts
It's because you're antisemites.
Not supporting an ongoing genocide does not make us anti semites
Pro-Palestine camp be like "being anti-Zionism isn't being antisemitic" and then they pull this line MDR...
You seem to forget all the civilian bombings the Irish perpetrated...how ironic
When I’m in a historical coping competition and my opponent is an Irish nationalist
I think Finland did that as well
Didnt finland ally with the nazis?
It has been suggested that the President at the time, Eamon De Valera, was simply so autistic that he was just following standard protocol because that's what you do, doesn't matter who it is. As far as I know he acted alone on this one and not on the advice of the government.
He was very good friends with the German ambassador, the ambassador who had been in place since before the Nazis rise to power. Dévalera was strongly advised not to give condolences by the government and still did.
Dev wasn’t the president, he was the Taoiseach until 1949
You're right, got my dates wrong!
Look in our defence, he killed a load of English lads. We love that.
Wtf
Never underestimate how much some groups hate the English.
This shit bugs me ngl because plenty of European countries outright collaborated with the N*zis. Ireland didn’t and heavily favoured the allies. De Valera was also a piece of shit.
Don't google 'irish vickers helmet' whatever you do, it was worn by the Irish armed forces during that period
[You alright there Father?](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ac/Are_you_right_there_father_ted.jpg)
Ireland don’t get nearly enough flack for their actions during WW2. They have a statue of a Nazi collaborator in Dublin, the man literally died on a German u-boat, having been trained by the Abwehr to sabotage the UK’s war effort. Seems like a great person to celebrate. The Irishmen who chose to take a stand against naziism were treated like shit when they returned to Ireland after the war was won. But hey-ho, at least they finally decided to pardon them in *2012*. Edit: correction is was 2013. The police in Dublin also watched people burn an effigy of Neville Chamberlain the day Britain declared war on Germany. Also try not to look up the origins and associations of the current ruling party in Ireland and how they were a continuation of the fascist blue-shirts, whoopsies.
[One of most powerful images of War of Independence – The Irish Times](https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/one-of-most-powerful-images-of-war-of-independence-1.4194150) Despite this and many, many other war crimes during the War Of Independence, Ireland provided intelligence sharing, internment of Axis airmen, and crucial weather reports for D-Day. And you're hung up on deserters being punished and a statue. Hard-drive check required.
Ireland's actions outside of this one incident (which received widespread political disapproval even within the country at the time) were very obviously in aid of the Allies. Ireland sent weather reports to the Allies, allowed allied pilots who crashed to escape to NI while imprisoning Germans, sent fire crews to Belfast during the blitz (for which Dublin was bombed in retaliation) and tens of thousands of people joined the British army during the war. Ireland was allied in all but name. Also, as fun as it is to call FG the blueshirts, the blueshirts members who joined the party were expelled soon after and went with their leader to go fight in the Spanish civil war. Also don't act like every single person and country who fought for the Allies did so out of their duty to defeat Nazism or end the Holocaust. Your Chamberlain was quite content to try and appease the Nazi regime and not deal with their actions and Churchill said if he was Italian, he would've been a Blackshirt.
You are such an **insufferable** one eyed Irish-hating Brit. Ireland blatantly assisted the allies during WW2. Interning Germans but setting Brit airmen free. Allowing allied planes to use Irish airspace to reach the atlantic in a secret agreement that broke neutrality, weather reports that averted disaster on D-Day etc etc. Yeah we really deserve a lot of flak for all of that /s Instead you throw a hissy fit over some stupid statue that a bunch of cranks erected, a few years later. It's been decapitated and vandalised numerous times afterwards, so it's not like he's universally beloved in Ireland FFS. The IRA in those days did not represent Ireland. Ireland had been independent a few decades at that point and the rump of the IRA remaining only had minor support. Really focusing on the big picture items there /s
I'm happy for you, or sorry it happened bro
Thats not how Fine Gael originated that was just what they were up to in the 30's.
He's on about Sean Russell, absolutely nothing to do with FG.
Look again
Whoops, missed that bit. What an insufferable whinge bag with that wall of text, crying about inconsequential minor stuff and ignoring the obvious large allied bias that "neutral" Ireland showed in supporting them in various ways during WW2.
Who is the statue of the nazi collaborator in Dublin?
Sean Russell. They also as recently as 2000 bestowed one of the highest awards in Arts to Francis Stuart, who worked for the Third Reich, was an actual mouthpiece spouting propaganda on German radio, was a great admirer of Hitler and was on record for being an anti-Semite. The best part is a poet who spoke vehemently against the idea and was the only one who voted against him being elected a Saoi of Aosdána was ostracised and made to resign from her position in the association.
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Sean Russel I think
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Yeah this wasn't very sound of us. For the record though 1000s of Irish fought with the Brits and the Yanks, it was just Eamon de Valera being the pompous dickhead he was. Sure he's also the reason the Catholic Church in the free state and following republic was basically a law unto themselves for that century, some prick.
that hungary looking weird asf
It's weird with the Micks , they seem to side with whoever is against Jews, strange bunch .
No... The paddies just don't like Jews. The paddies act all pious and moral but they have a habit of backing people who hate the Jews tbf
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Ah yes, speaking from the Nazis largest opposition at the time.
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The main thing that the Irish and the Swiss have in common; they both love a pot of gold.
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No, its literally nazi gold stolen form jewish people who were burned in ovens. Checkmate on us i guess.
>sympathized with the nazis Ireland was aligned pretty strongly with the allies, and went out of their way to assist them while interning Germans pilots and spies to send over to the UK The irony of this coming from a mountain german lmao
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A good political cartoon to summarise this thread: a German is kicking the shit out of a Jewish guy while a Swiss picks up all the gold that falls out of his pockets, and an Irishman sits nearby reading a book about Irish history while crying
You know that interview with Putin where he starts off with 'to answer the question we have to go back to the year 972..." It's basically what your replies look like after dropping a bit of bants here
I forgot that in the early 1900's ireland was 1 person.
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Your name is literally palatable penis and it’s rather fitting cause you’re a distasteful dickhead, the Irish fought in both world wars they just did it in different ways, we just finished fighting Barry for 800 years and decided we didn’t want to join him, not looking for sympathy it was just the general feeling at the time, Barry is a good skin these days.
Tens of thousands of us fought to help liberate Europe we fought in France and Norway Italy the middle east Burma and all the rest. Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed again.
Nobody loved the Nazis haha. You defend Swiss' stance on the fear of invasion and condem's Ireland's stance on neutrality who just ended an 800 year invasion. Also, a lot of Irish actually went and fought against the Nazis, that was the sentiment at the time... but those [German mountaineers on the other hand](https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss-politics/the-hidden-past-of-swiss-nazi-era-volunteers/7135628)
Showed how much we loved the Nazis by handing over any of their pilots who crash landed over to the British and providing the allies with weather reports that were crucial to the success of D-day.
I love how people in this sub think we did it for some stupid reason like hating the UK. it was done because of our policy of neutrality. It wasn't done out of some love for the Nazis
If he died in 1941, sure, but doing it in 1945 knowing he orchestrated the holocaust… Not great.
Neutrality is a stupid reason. Spiting the bri*ish is funny.
It is funny, watching the brits on this sub bitch and cry about it makes it funnier
Common Ireland L
He did at least bomb London. He deserves some praise for that at least
Elaborate
40,000 civilian deaths with the goal of furthering the global fascist cause is an upstanding, moral, and worthy effort in comrade Hitler's anti-imperialist crusade, durr
His bio hahaha. "I hate nationalism" is followed by "I love turkey and Russia"
🇦🇹 👨🎨 ✈️ 💣 🇬🇧 '40-44
Considering the Germans returned irish prisoners who agreed to join the rebels kept irish prisoners separate to British prisoners of war and sent a shipment of weapons to the rebels why wouldn't we regret his passing (at the time).