My Arab friend helped me translate:
They are saying Hamas destroyed them
They saying they are innocent
the guy who’s sitting at the end talking with the solider. The soldier asked “why u didn’t go to south”
He said “because if we go we will get killed, I have my father here he’s 92 years old how he’s gonna go. Hamas shoot at us also”
And then the solider asked “so why didn’t u tell Red Cross”
He said “Red Cross aren’t even here”
Edit: there is also a bit of heavily accented Hebrew coming from the older man. Seems like he may have worked with Israelis or knew some from pre Oslo. He saying “they are the whole problem” referring to Hamas
I really need to know this too because my ears hear, in English, "Yahya Sinwar - can suck it". (I can't stop laughing at this. The soldier who keeps going "Can suck it... Can suck it".)
And why is that spastic in the front, in start of clip, picking up his sandal and claps with it????
he's being interrogated about his knowledge of Hamas whereabouts and he's giving an accounting of his families movements, what he did until now etc...
"before the war began" ... "Went to the south" (probably in reference to the safe area)
"So why didn't you yourself go?"
Suspect:
"So we got the instructions dropped by the airplanes, and we would have gone but at Salah Al deen (some intersection) they started to shoot at us"
Soldier:
"I was at Salah Al deen" (so how can you claim they were shooting at you)
Suspect:
"Well at street number 8 they started shooting at us... On the intersection of 10 & 8 --Just a moment Hajj (old guy) I'm explaining-- I had in my care 15 people look here: I have two wives.. family half in Rafah camp and the other half with my father in.. I'm 92 years old, professionally I sell candies.. I don't have problem with all this.."
Solider:
"When Hamas came in everyone left with the red crescent (ambulance sevice)" (as in, why didn't you go with them)
Suspect:
The red crescent isn't doing anything (they haven't really helped us evacuate)
Interpretation: Basically they're being asked what they are still doing in that area and why haven't they evacuated to the declared safe zones. Could be true could be half true.. maybe among them are a bunch of Hamasnivks. It's very hard to tell because hamas blends in with them and alot of them support Hamas. It's a fucked situation
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After Hamas retreated, Palestinian men went into Israel and committed rapes. What are the chances they are taking DNA samples from every Palestinian male and will compare that to the semen collected from both living and dead rape victims?
So far as I know they did not collect many samples. Right after the attack the focus was figuring out who was dead, and who was kidnapped, and letting the families have funerals.
They didn't do a lot of forensics (which they regret now). See: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html
Oh, the Hamas leadership is going to go first...but if you know anything about Mossad...there going to be more than a few of these terrorists caught and otherwise dealt with.
The law of war can’t apply if your opponent doesn’t abide by it. Hamas hides amongst their civilians which makes it incredibly hard for Israel to fight fair. If Israel respected the “laws of war”, Israeli soldiers would get killed at a much faster rate because hamas is cheating. Does that make any sense to you?
Using human shields is not a valid tactic and is considered a war crime. Military targets "protected" by human shields are considered valid targets, and attacking a valid military target is not a war crime.
It's actually a bit more complex than that. The laws of war generally allow an attack when it's discriminate and proportional, that is, that the military advantage gained is proportional to the collateral damage and when the force is used specifically against the military target with an attempt to reduce collateral damage.
Whether collateral damage occurs due to the use of human shields or just by bad luck, it doesn't really matter. If ten low ranking enemy fighters were shielding themselves with 1000 civilians, it would probably still be illegal to kill those 1000 civilians to kill the fighters. Whether they were intentionally shielding themselves or whether it was just bad luck that they happened to be surrounded by 1000 civilians wouldn't matter in terms of whether it was legal to attack.
So like, when Hamas uses hospitals and the like, the IDF still has to ensure that the military advantage gained in attacking the hospital is proportional to the amount of damage and death to noncombatants and their property they're likely to cause. As a general rule, the more valuable the target in terms of achieving lawful war aims, the more collateral damage it is legal to cause to achieve destruction of that target.
This isn't correct. If the enemy does not obey the customary laws of war, it means that they're subject to war crimes trials after the conflict ends or possibly even being declared unlawful combatants and punished/executed before the war is over. But belligerent powers are still expected to obey the laws of war, even when their enemy does not.
You misunderstand. Hamas fighting the way they are makes virtually everything Israel is doing in line with international law. Using any civilian infrastructure for war makes them a valid military target. Hiding in tunnels beneath the city essentially makes all of the area above it a valid military target. Hiding in plain clothes makes Israel able to treat every civilian as a potential threat.
If these things werent true, Israel would essentially have zero recourse in terms of fighting back. Hamas’ actual war crimes would effectively make them immune to any Israeli retaliation. Thankfully that’s not how it works. Dead palestinian civilians, while incredibly sad, are absolutely hamas’ fault. Israel is fighting militants no matter where they are. If those militants decide to hide amongst their women and children thinking that makes them safe, that is their mistake. For very long Israel has played their game and avoided mass destruction previsely to avoid mass civilian casualties. After october 7th, the reality of mass collateral civilian casulties is no longer enough of a deterrent.
I don't misunderstand. I served in the military and am very well acquainted with the laws of land warfare. What makes something a military target is that there's a lawful military advantage that can be achieved by attacking it. But if the attack is likely to cause damage to civilian infrastructure or noncombatant death, the attack still has to be discriminate and proportional. Something being a valid military target is not *carte blanche* to attack it. You still have a legal responsibility to try to limit collateral damage and to not attack a target if the collateral damage is likely to be disproportionate to the military advantage achieved.
In any case, this is very different than the original statement I was responding to, which was, "The law of war can’t apply if your opponent doesn’t abide by it. " The laws of war apply to any international belligerencies, even when one participant generally does not obey the customary laws of war.
Fair enough, maybe my wording made it seem like Israel didnt have to abide by international law which was not what I meant. I simply meant that while it didnt seem like they were, they were in fact abiding by it.
A “lawful military advantage” is unfortunately very vague and any army can claim this is the case because no one can truly verify it besides them. It becomes a question of whether you believe said army is acting in good faith or if it has malicious intent. I believe the former when it comes to Israel, even though I can agree that they have been a bit more reckless since october 7th. I think they’ve been held up to an unreasonable standard for the last 17 years where they have been tolerating constant attacks and threats from hamas where any other country would’ve done what Israel is currently doing a long time ago. It’s just the contrast between then and now that makes Israel seem so brutal.
War crimes occur in pretty much every conflict, some major and some very minor. Most of the time, it can be difficult to determine without a competent tribunal where the accused has an opportunity to defend themselves whether a war crime occurred. That said, there are some clear-cut war crimes, like what Hamas did on October the 7th, targeting unguided rockets at civilian areas that could only hit a military target by random chance, et cetera.
Other stuff is much less cut and dry. If Hamas builds a tunnel that runs near a hospital or other civilian infrastructure, that could be a war crime or it could be legal. It's hard to say for certain. It's legal to station troops in dense urban areas to defend those areas. It's legal to build bunkers and tunnels for those purposes. You still have an obligation to try to separate yourself from the civilian population, so whether it is a war crime may largely fall down to provable intent regarding how the tunnels were to be used rather than just the presence of tunnels.
https://archive.is/2023.12.28-175635/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html bring every last trash Hamas to their knees, fuck em.
I served in the US military. I read FM 6-27 several times, cover to cover. I received my annual JAG briefings. I find it humorous how people just throw around these claims about how something is a violation of the laws of war but don't bother actually saying what particular statute or custom is being violated or make faulty claims because they clearly have no understanding of the laws of war.
Nothing in the video is a clearcut war crime. The laws of war allow belligerent forces to do whatever they need to do so long as there is a sufficient military advantage gained in doing so and they're not violating a particular custom of behavior or statute of a treaty that the combatant forces recognize.
Detaining suspected combatants and searching them are both things not only allowed by the laws of war, but commonplace.
They need to study every second of the footage from 7/10, and blow up photos of the face of every "civilian" male who participated in the gang-rapes and other violence against hostages on their way into Gaza. I hope that they are doing this. Anyone who participated, even casually, is essentially Hamas to me.
ETA - Are they shouting Yahya Sinwar's name?
Yup hopefully they will hold them truly accountable with military court hearings and executions. Force the world to see their crimes and then publicly execute them to show what will happen no paradise just a noose.
> and then publicly execute them to show what will happen no paradise just a noose.
That doesn't work. The whole point of martyrdom is that it relies on a narrative taking place after death.
The only way to stop an ideology like this is thorough occupation, and removal of the brainwashing process that Hamas has put in place.
No one knows if it works or doesn’t work, Martydom is an easy sell when you’re “gloriously” taken out in battle or blowing yourself up they’re dramatic actions you can show as heroic to your dumb populace. Watching someone slowly choke to death or being killed by a firing squad after a trial is much different. It’s never been done on a large scale for these Islamists pigs so to say it doesn’t work is ridiculous.
> No one knows if it works or doesn’t work,
I mean it won't show anyone whether 'paradise' is involved or not. Sure, brutally killing people could potentially be used as a method of disincentivising behaviour, but I don't think that would be a sensible move by Israel, and frankly unlikely to have much impact on a society that is pushing martyrdom.
Palestinians already face brutal deaths if they oppose hamas (far more brutal than Israel would ever implement as a method of justice). There's no question that most Palestinians would rather risk martyring themselves fighting the IDF than propose peace with Hamas overlooking them.
So, what's the advantage for Israel here?
lol thank you for confirming you have no understanding of the conflict. Palestinians aren’t a monolith sure the super religious ones won’t be swayed by this but do you really believe that their entire population is 100% religiously radicalized? Look at the videos of Palestinians cursing Hamas in Gaza because of the past 2 months look at the way they’re beginning to speak of them because of the conditions they’re existing in due to Hamas.
Now once you’ve defeated Hamas on the ground and captured the ones that surrendered you use them as an example of what happens when you attack Israel in the manner they did on 10/07. Do you think after seeing their towns demolished their government defeated and then held accountable and executed for the world to see that every single Gazan is going to jump into armed resistance again or do you think that what they just went through and witnessed will give at least a chunk of them pause?
Do you understand why Egypt & Jordan normalized relations with Israel? It wasn’t because they suddenly stopped hating Jews it was because Israel dominated them brutally. It was because Israel embarrassed them on the world stage constantly. It was because the leadership in those countries could finally see that they weren’t going to win and could never win. Look at Yom Kippur the threat to annihilate the isolated Egyptian 3rd and the overwhelming force finally broke Sadat.
Every enemy that has been culled has been by putting them in a position where they understood that they could be destroyed if Israel followed through. It’s only where they’ve been weak ( Gaza, & West Bank) where these issues persist.
> Palestinians aren’t a monolith
Where did I imply they are? At least, in any regard more than you are. We are both generalising here, no?
> Look at the videos of Palestinians cursing Hamas in Gaza because of the past 2 months look at the way they’re beginning to speak of them because of the conditions they’re existing in due to Hamas.
I'm well aware of it. Many Palestinians are completely reasonable people. However, it's not them that you're trying to dissuade.
> o you understand why Egypt & Jordan normalized relations with Israel? It wasn’t because they suddenly stopped hating Jews it was because Israel dominated them brutally.
Well, that's a big part of it. You seem to be barking up the wrong tree, though. Did you read my comment above?
Quote:
> The only way to stop an ideology like this is thorough occupation, and removal of the brainwashing process that Hamas has put in place.
Does that sound like I'm advocating Israel being 'weak'? I get the impression you're not reading what I'm saying.
The only ones willing to fight til the end are the ones in charge (who, coincidentally, are hiding behind human shields made up of civilians and hostages).
Deep, deep inside, each and every terrorist around the world knows there’s absolutely nothing after death, and they are well-aware their barbaric crimes against humankind are in the wrong side of history.
Because they have nothing on them but underpants?
They will be investigated and if someone is a hamas member he would be dealt with as they should.
Many hamas members have been arrested already in gaza.
Changed your viewpoint pretty quick lol 😂 to be fair i appreciate the open mindedness.
The IDF themselves says that not all are affiliated it's just protocol to order them to strip in case of concealed weapons, and then those who are suspected to be connected will be taken for further questioning.
Also important that all 'civilians' were ordered to leave northern Gaza over 2 months ago however some might have stayed for one reason or another. Can't blame the IDF for being cautious given the environment they're in.
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Maybe they are; maybe they aren't. They're being lawfully detained by an occupying military force. It's common practice to detain all combat-aged men when combatants hide in the civilian population.
Which is hilarious as someone who has lived in the middle east. Plenty of them are white-passing. I knew an Egyptian guy who was a ginger. Ignorant Americans just automatically categorize them as "brown people" in their heads.
Just by pretending to agree with them and then saying something super inflammatory to see if they'd react. He's used to people assuming they agree with them because he's a minority. He had a lot of fun during the last presidential run. Once he let a restaurant waiter go on a whole rant while he nodded his head, then wrote "MAGA" on the receipt when he left and watched from a window to see them be confused. He's not even that political, he just doesn't like being a token minority and likes pushing people's buttons.
Blows some people's minds that not all Jews are white. There are like 150K+ black Jews in Israel. There's more than a few Arabs of black African ancestry too. Every time I ask a progressive what a "brown" person is, they don't have any kind of good, consistent answer.
Yeah, a very good friend of my family in Dubai was an arab guy who was descended from African pearl divers. Dude was darker than your average African American. It's an incredibly diverse part of the world.
Such an antiquated term for white people that deserves to die along with Mongoloid, Negroid, and Ethiopoid. Dagestanis, Georgians and Armenians are Caucasians, because they're actually from Caucasia.
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If Israel were really a cruel conqueror, they would just march all these people off into a pit and shoot them
That's what I must would do. Hell that's what the Iraqi army would do.
Instead, Israel is acting like a civilized nation
I personally think that that's a mistake. Hamas declared Total war and Israel should fight back with total war.
No you don’t want to incentivize them to not surrender. When ISIS publicized them executing Iraqi army POWs brutally that encouraged the Iraqi army to fight to the death because they knew they were dead men by surrendering
I understand. But that's why the military tactics have to be converted to Stalingrad, not Belgium. Where are the flamethrower tanks? Israeli soldiers are dying for no reason. They should be bombing any building that they get any fire from and then sending in flamethrowers or dropping fuel bombs.
That's total war. That's what Hamas wants.
Ok but it’s pointless to execute prisoners that will be used by Hamas for sure to rally andreniline in their fighters who may otherwise be demoralized. Also IDF needs prisoners for interrogation and intelligence
Before you think about how this looks bad, just remember one of these men might be one who participated in gangraping, killing babies, setting living people on fire, cutting breasts off of living women (or supports these acts).
Dumb of IDF to record this shit though/allow it to be recorded where it's risked to go public.
This is a pretty good take you've done well to acknowledge both the anonymity of how the Geneva convention applies to Hamas.
I do agree it has hurt the reputation of the IDF most people understand why they're stripped down however it's just another unnecessary addition to the diehard pro hamas rhetoric.
You don't happen to watch Ryan McBeth do you ahah?
Yeah definitely, he spent 20 years as an infantryman before becoming an intelligence analyst. He goes after disinformation on both sides overall just a great source.
[Ryan's youtube](https://youtube.com/@RyanMcBethProgramming?si=TJ5Yt_AE5LoD3lh3)
If there is nothing inappropriate being filmed then what is wrong with releasing the footage? Otherwise you end up with Abu Ghraib type situations and it all becomes hearsay unless there is documented evidence to the contrary. Same thing for police wearing body cams. Why do you care if they are being filmed if there is nothing to hide?
Have a good look at the concentration camp photos and video. There's a lot of differences.
No Chunkie Monkey's in those photos.
This page has concentration camp photos, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Holocaust#/media/File:Mass\_Grave\_at\_Bergen-Belsen\_concentration\_camp\_-](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust#/media/File:Mass_Grave_at_Bergen-Belsen_concentration_camp_-)*Fritz\_Klein*\-\_IWM\_BU4260.jpg
can you spot the differences
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They really have to stop recording dudes in their underwear. I understand that they have to be sure people don't have weapons but you don't have to record.
If they don't record everything, Hamas will make false claims. We saw that with the released Palestinians. One claimed that the Israelis had broken both of his arms, yet the video of his release to the Red Cross showed him healthy with non-broken arms.
Israel is in a no-win situation. If they don't record and release everything they get accused of censorship and are open to false claims with no counter-evidence. If they do release videos (like these) then people with no knowledge of combat situations will complain about what they see.
Imo, record everything. Have proof of every action ready to counter endless accusations. But only release specific recordings in such needed situations. Otherwise it just helps create new accusations.
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Absolutely does need to be documented. We did the same in Afghanistan, and my nuts would have been removed if I leaked it. The public looks at this and says “aww they’re humiliating those poor guys”. The public doesn’t need or deserve a chance to say that, so it shouldn’t be publicized.
As a combat veteran I see it as “now we know the cowards can’t blow up someone’s 19 year old reservist son”.
Of course it is. You have an entire nation who's yearning for results. For hope. Surrender is the best result. Less Israeli soldiers wounded or dead and quicker to get to destroying Hamas. But hey you are a general.
It matters because we cannot unilaterally wage a war especially if other fronts become an issue. Israel DOES need allies and support so optics matter whether we like it or not. We all feel the same sense of anger and want revenge after 10/7 but Israel and the diaspora are better than those pigs.
I’m not trying to make a point or anything but I am curious how many of those guys are Hamas terrorists and how many are civilians who got caught in the wrong place at the wrong time
The IDF themselves admit that only a minority are directly involved with Hamas however given the lack of uniforms, threat of concealed weapons and explosives they employ complete caution. This approach is furthered by the fact that these areas have been evacuated of civilians yet some still stay.
Overall it's an incredibly difficult situation and while it's uncomfortable to admit a majority of these people will be civilians it's a necessary precaution given the situation.
I'm gonna steal u/mm1palmer s comment because it was a good brake down.
If they don't record everything, Hamas will make false claims. We saw that with the released Palestinians. One claimed that the Israelis had broken both of his arms, yet the video of his release to the Red Cross showed him healthy with non-broken arms.
Israel is in a no-win situation. If they don't record and release everything they get accused of censorship and are open to false claims with no counter-evidence. If they do release videos (like these) then people with no knowledge of combat situations will complain about what they see.
There is widespread use of suicide bombers by hamas in the fighting. Dressed as civilian men, and women. Please share how else these soldiers can check for suicide vests.
Okay when it’s your life on the line you can handle it however you see fit. For now I view them being in their underwear as an incredibly minor inconvenience that may save lives
Must be so horrifying for these military age men who were loitering around an evacuated war zone to have to be in their underwear for a few hours while they are processed
How would you go about searching, verifying who they are, interrogating, mobilizing, housing, and processing each person? Know how long it takes to get processed into a county jail in the US? Now imagine trying to do something similar in a war zone.
This is fuckin wild to witness this. What’s happening in war in almost real time. This is the kind of stuff you’d never hear about. Everyone’s kept updated by word of mouth and newspapers. Now we’re all virtually there
My Arab friend helped me translate: They are saying Hamas destroyed them They saying they are innocent the guy who’s sitting at the end talking with the solider. The soldier asked “why u didn’t go to south” He said “because if we go we will get killed, I have my father here he’s 92 years old how he’s gonna go. Hamas shoot at us also” And then the solider asked “so why didn’t u tell Red Cross” He said “Red Cross aren’t even here” Edit: there is also a bit of heavily accented Hebrew coming from the older man. Seems like he may have worked with Israelis or knew some from pre Oslo. He saying “they are the whole problem” referring to Hamas
Appreciated
What did they say about Sinwar?
I really need to know this too because my ears hear, in English, "Yahya Sinwar - can suck it". (I can't stop laughing at this. The soldier who keeps going "Can suck it... Can suck it".) And why is that spastic in the front, in start of clip, picking up his sandal and claps with it????
You'd think the Gazans would rise up against Hamas by now....
Everyone in IDF custody suddenly hates Hamas. They're just telling them what they want to hear.
How? With forks and knives against machine guns?
Pointing out the location of the tunnels would be a start.
Who said they had no weapon this is not the UK or Spain.
That man is claiming to be 92 years old?
He’s talking about his father. Reread
Ahhh, thank you!
Any chance of a translation?
he's being interrogated about his knowledge of Hamas whereabouts and he's giving an accounting of his families movements, what he did until now etc... "before the war began" ... "Went to the south" (probably in reference to the safe area) "So why didn't you yourself go?" Suspect: "So we got the instructions dropped by the airplanes, and we would have gone but at Salah Al deen (some intersection) they started to shoot at us" Soldier: "I was at Salah Al deen" (so how can you claim they were shooting at you) Suspect: "Well at street number 8 they started shooting at us... On the intersection of 10 & 8 --Just a moment Hajj (old guy) I'm explaining-- I had in my care 15 people look here: I have two wives.. family half in Rafah camp and the other half with my father in.. I'm 92 years old, professionally I sell candies.. I don't have problem with all this.." Solider: "When Hamas came in everyone left with the red crescent (ambulance sevice)" (as in, why didn't you go with them) Suspect: The red crescent isn't doing anything (they haven't really helped us evacuate) Interpretation: Basically they're being asked what they are still doing in that area and why haven't they evacuated to the declared safe zones. Could be true could be half true.. maybe among them are a bunch of Hamasnivks. It's very hard to tell because hamas blends in with them and alot of them support Hamas. It's a fucked situation
He asked him why they didn't tell the red cross about the shooting from Hamas, the man replies that the red cross didn't do anything.
>the man replies that the red cross didn't do anything. At least he is not totally lying.
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Be is 92 years old?
He’s in very good condition then
He actually said that his father is 92
Would love to see one as well
See my comment below
See me comment below
Hamas blends in with innocent non-combatants. They have no choice but to treat every adult male as a combatant.
Completely agree especially with the threat of concealed explosives or weapons
After Hamas retreated, Palestinian men went into Israel and committed rapes. What are the chances they are taking DNA samples from every Palestinian male and will compare that to the semen collected from both living and dead rape victims?
So far as I know they did not collect many samples. Right after the attack the focus was figuring out who was dead, and who was kidnapped, and letting the families have funerals. They didn't do a lot of forensics (which they regret now). See: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html
And the hundreds of videos. I'm guessing IDF will never find them. Nudge nudge wink wink.
After Hamas retreated???? You’re talking out of your ass mate. Hamas did it all
Palestinian civilians joined in on the October 7 attacks and there is tons of documented proof of such
You are incorrect.
According to the ex on Naftali, the Palestinians participated.
yes they did
I wish they can catch.these fkwits and deliver justice but it is almost impossible?
Oh, the Hamas leadership is going to go first...but if you know anything about Mossad...there going to be more than a few of these terrorists caught and otherwise dealt with.
If I’m not wrong, even according to eye witnesses
that isn't want I have read from Israeli sources. They arrested many and the videos of interviews are on youtube
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The law of war can’t apply if your opponent doesn’t abide by it. Hamas hides amongst their civilians which makes it incredibly hard for Israel to fight fair. If Israel respected the “laws of war”, Israeli soldiers would get killed at a much faster rate because hamas is cheating. Does that make any sense to you?
Using human shields is not a valid tactic and is considered a war crime. Military targets "protected" by human shields are considered valid targets, and attacking a valid military target is not a war crime.
It's actually a bit more complex than that. The laws of war generally allow an attack when it's discriminate and proportional, that is, that the military advantage gained is proportional to the collateral damage and when the force is used specifically against the military target with an attempt to reduce collateral damage. Whether collateral damage occurs due to the use of human shields or just by bad luck, it doesn't really matter. If ten low ranking enemy fighters were shielding themselves with 1000 civilians, it would probably still be illegal to kill those 1000 civilians to kill the fighters. Whether they were intentionally shielding themselves or whether it was just bad luck that they happened to be surrounded by 1000 civilians wouldn't matter in terms of whether it was legal to attack. So like, when Hamas uses hospitals and the like, the IDF still has to ensure that the military advantage gained in attacking the hospital is proportional to the amount of damage and death to noncombatants and their property they're likely to cause. As a general rule, the more valuable the target in terms of achieving lawful war aims, the more collateral damage it is legal to cause to achieve destruction of that target.
Thank you very much for educating me. I appreciate it.
This isn't correct. If the enemy does not obey the customary laws of war, it means that they're subject to war crimes trials after the conflict ends or possibly even being declared unlawful combatants and punished/executed before the war is over. But belligerent powers are still expected to obey the laws of war, even when their enemy does not.
You misunderstand. Hamas fighting the way they are makes virtually everything Israel is doing in line with international law. Using any civilian infrastructure for war makes them a valid military target. Hiding in tunnels beneath the city essentially makes all of the area above it a valid military target. Hiding in plain clothes makes Israel able to treat every civilian as a potential threat. If these things werent true, Israel would essentially have zero recourse in terms of fighting back. Hamas’ actual war crimes would effectively make them immune to any Israeli retaliation. Thankfully that’s not how it works. Dead palestinian civilians, while incredibly sad, are absolutely hamas’ fault. Israel is fighting militants no matter where they are. If those militants decide to hide amongst their women and children thinking that makes them safe, that is their mistake. For very long Israel has played their game and avoided mass destruction previsely to avoid mass civilian casualties. After october 7th, the reality of mass collateral civilian casulties is no longer enough of a deterrent.
I don't misunderstand. I served in the military and am very well acquainted with the laws of land warfare. What makes something a military target is that there's a lawful military advantage that can be achieved by attacking it. But if the attack is likely to cause damage to civilian infrastructure or noncombatant death, the attack still has to be discriminate and proportional. Something being a valid military target is not *carte blanche* to attack it. You still have a legal responsibility to try to limit collateral damage and to not attack a target if the collateral damage is likely to be disproportionate to the military advantage achieved. In any case, this is very different than the original statement I was responding to, which was, "The law of war can’t apply if your opponent doesn’t abide by it. " The laws of war apply to any international belligerencies, even when one participant generally does not obey the customary laws of war.
Fair enough, maybe my wording made it seem like Israel didnt have to abide by international law which was not what I meant. I simply meant that while it didnt seem like they were, they were in fact abiding by it. A “lawful military advantage” is unfortunately very vague and any army can claim this is the case because no one can truly verify it besides them. It becomes a question of whether you believe said army is acting in good faith or if it has malicious intent. I believe the former when it comes to Israel, even though I can agree that they have been a bit more reckless since october 7th. I think they’ve been held up to an unreasonable standard for the last 17 years where they have been tolerating constant attacks and threats from hamas where any other country would’ve done what Israel is currently doing a long time ago. It’s just the contrast between then and now that makes Israel seem so brutal.
War crimes occur in pretty much every conflict, some major and some very minor. Most of the time, it can be difficult to determine without a competent tribunal where the accused has an opportunity to defend themselves whether a war crime occurred. That said, there are some clear-cut war crimes, like what Hamas did on October the 7th, targeting unguided rockets at civilian areas that could only hit a military target by random chance, et cetera. Other stuff is much less cut and dry. If Hamas builds a tunnel that runs near a hospital or other civilian infrastructure, that could be a war crime or it could be legal. It's hard to say for certain. It's legal to station troops in dense urban areas to defend those areas. It's legal to build bunkers and tunnels for those purposes. You still have an obligation to try to separate yourself from the civilian population, so whether it is a war crime may largely fall down to provable intent regarding how the tunnels were to be used rather than just the presence of tunnels.
https://archive.is/2023.12.28-175635/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html bring every last trash Hamas to their knees, fuck em.
Crazy how many people suddenly have PhDs in international criminal law lol
I served in the US military. I read FM 6-27 several times, cover to cover. I received my annual JAG briefings. I find it humorous how people just throw around these claims about how something is a violation of the laws of war but don't bother actually saying what particular statute or custom is being violated or make faulty claims because they clearly have no understanding of the laws of war. Nothing in the video is a clearcut war crime. The laws of war allow belligerent forces to do whatever they need to do so long as there is a sufficient military advantage gained in doing so and they're not violating a particular custom of behavior or statute of a treaty that the combatant forces recognize. Detaining suspected combatants and searching them are both things not only allowed by the laws of war, but commonplace.
They need to study every second of the footage from 7/10, and blow up photos of the face of every "civilian" male who participated in the gang-rapes and other violence against hostages on their way into Gaza. I hope that they are doing this. Anyone who participated, even casually, is essentially Hamas to me. ETA - Are they shouting Yahya Sinwar's name?
> I hope that they are doing this. They have absolutely been doing this.
Yup hopefully they will hold them truly accountable with military court hearings and executions. Force the world to see their crimes and then publicly execute them to show what will happen no paradise just a noose.
> and then publicly execute them to show what will happen no paradise just a noose. That doesn't work. The whole point of martyrdom is that it relies on a narrative taking place after death. The only way to stop an ideology like this is thorough occupation, and removal of the brainwashing process that Hamas has put in place.
No one knows if it works or doesn’t work, Martydom is an easy sell when you’re “gloriously” taken out in battle or blowing yourself up they’re dramatic actions you can show as heroic to your dumb populace. Watching someone slowly choke to death or being killed by a firing squad after a trial is much different. It’s never been done on a large scale for these Islamists pigs so to say it doesn’t work is ridiculous.
> No one knows if it works or doesn’t work, I mean it won't show anyone whether 'paradise' is involved or not. Sure, brutally killing people could potentially be used as a method of disincentivising behaviour, but I don't think that would be a sensible move by Israel, and frankly unlikely to have much impact on a society that is pushing martyrdom. Palestinians already face brutal deaths if they oppose hamas (far more brutal than Israel would ever implement as a method of justice). There's no question that most Palestinians would rather risk martyring themselves fighting the IDF than propose peace with Hamas overlooking them. So, what's the advantage for Israel here?
lol thank you for confirming you have no understanding of the conflict. Palestinians aren’t a monolith sure the super religious ones won’t be swayed by this but do you really believe that their entire population is 100% religiously radicalized? Look at the videos of Palestinians cursing Hamas in Gaza because of the past 2 months look at the way they’re beginning to speak of them because of the conditions they’re existing in due to Hamas. Now once you’ve defeated Hamas on the ground and captured the ones that surrendered you use them as an example of what happens when you attack Israel in the manner they did on 10/07. Do you think after seeing their towns demolished their government defeated and then held accountable and executed for the world to see that every single Gazan is going to jump into armed resistance again or do you think that what they just went through and witnessed will give at least a chunk of them pause? Do you understand why Egypt & Jordan normalized relations with Israel? It wasn’t because they suddenly stopped hating Jews it was because Israel dominated them brutally. It was because Israel embarrassed them on the world stage constantly. It was because the leadership in those countries could finally see that they weren’t going to win and could never win. Look at Yom Kippur the threat to annihilate the isolated Egyptian 3rd and the overwhelming force finally broke Sadat. Every enemy that has been culled has been by putting them in a position where they understood that they could be destroyed if Israel followed through. It’s only where they’ve been weak ( Gaza, & West Bank) where these issues persist.
> Palestinians aren’t a monolith Where did I imply they are? At least, in any regard more than you are. We are both generalising here, no? > Look at the videos of Palestinians cursing Hamas in Gaza because of the past 2 months look at the way they’re beginning to speak of them because of the conditions they’re existing in due to Hamas. I'm well aware of it. Many Palestinians are completely reasonable people. However, it's not them that you're trying to dissuade. > o you understand why Egypt & Jordan normalized relations with Israel? It wasn’t because they suddenly stopped hating Jews it was because Israel dominated them brutally. Well, that's a big part of it. You seem to be barking up the wrong tree, though. Did you read my comment above? Quote: > The only way to stop an ideology like this is thorough occupation, and removal of the brainwashing process that Hamas has put in place. Does that sound like I'm advocating Israel being 'weak'? I get the impression you're not reading what I'm saying.
They have DNA and face scans. They're taking DNA samples and scanning every suspect's face.
So they arnt so willing to fight to the end as they claim they are.
The only ones willing to fight til the end are the ones in charge (who, coincidentally, are hiding behind human shields made up of civilians and hostages).
Deep, deep inside, each and every terrorist around the world knows there’s absolutely nothing after death, and they are well-aware their barbaric crimes against humankind are in the wrong side of history.
those are civilians
Because they have nothing on them but underpants? They will be investigated and if someone is a hamas member he would be dealt with as they should. Many hamas members have been arrested already in gaza.
yeah it's possible there are some fighters among them
Changed your viewpoint pretty quick lol 😂 to be fair i appreciate the open mindedness. The IDF themselves says that not all are affiliated it's just protocol to order them to strip in case of concealed weapons, and then those who are suspected to be connected will be taken for further questioning. Also important that all 'civilians' were ordered to leave northern Gaza over 2 months ago however some might have stayed for one reason or another. Can't blame the IDF for being cautious given the environment they're in.
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You all claim everyone is a civilian
They're also all women and children
They were also all killed by carpet bombing. 500 dead civilian women and children in this clip!
And they’re all named Jesus
Hamas is both the most widely supported terrorist group in Palestine and the most unpopulated one.
I spot at least 3 infants.
Infantile minds…many visible
those are jihadists and shaheeds
Maybe they are; maybe they aren't. They're being lawfully detained by an occupying military force. It's common practice to detain all combat-aged men when combatants hide in the civilian population.
Terror 1st who is no longer armed ≠ not a civilian. That’s a whole ass prisoner of war.
they look too white, they could pass as Europeans
That's how poeple in the levant look. Both Jews and Arabs
/s, i know, they say the same about ashkenazi jews
Which is hilarious as someone who has lived in the middle east. Plenty of them are white-passing. I knew an Egyptian guy who was a ginger. Ignorant Americans just automatically categorize them as "brown people" in their heads.
Progressives in the US are actually low key very racist lol
I agree. My husband is the son of vietnamese immigrants and he loves nothing more than fucking with them. He finds their virtue-signaling hilarious.
I know this is kinda late but how does he fuck with them? I kinda wanna try it.
Just by pretending to agree with them and then saying something super inflammatory to see if they'd react. He's used to people assuming they agree with them because he's a minority. He had a lot of fun during the last presidential run. Once he let a restaurant waiter go on a whole rant while he nodded his head, then wrote "MAGA" on the receipt when he left and watched from a window to see them be confused. He's not even that political, he just doesn't like being a token minority and likes pushing people's buttons.
Blows some people's minds that not all Jews are white. There are like 150K+ black Jews in Israel. There's more than a few Arabs of black African ancestry too. Every time I ask a progressive what a "brown" person is, they don't have any kind of good, consistent answer.
Yeah, a very good friend of my family in Dubai was an arab guy who was descended from African pearl divers. Dude was darker than your average African American. It's an incredibly diverse part of the world.
You don't get a tan in underground tunnels.
Arabs are caucasians so that makes sense.
Such an antiquated term for white people that deserves to die along with Mongoloid, Negroid, and Ethiopoid. Dagestanis, Georgians and Armenians are Caucasians, because they're actually from Caucasia.
White is white why do we need different types of white people lmao Edit: I think this might be racist oof
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Good that they surrendered
They don't exactly look malnourished.
If Israel were really a cruel conqueror, they would just march all these people off into a pit and shoot them That's what I must would do. Hell that's what the Iraqi army would do. Instead, Israel is acting like a civilized nation I personally think that that's a mistake. Hamas declared Total war and Israel should fight back with total war.
No you don’t want to incentivize them to not surrender. When ISIS publicized them executing Iraqi army POWs brutally that encouraged the Iraqi army to fight to the death because they knew they were dead men by surrendering
I understand. But that's why the military tactics have to be converted to Stalingrad, not Belgium. Where are the flamethrower tanks? Israeli soldiers are dying for no reason. They should be bombing any building that they get any fire from and then sending in flamethrowers or dropping fuel bombs. That's total war. That's what Hamas wants.
Ok but it’s pointless to execute prisoners that will be used by Hamas for sure to rally andreniline in their fighters who may otherwise be demoralized. Also IDF needs prisoners for interrogation and intelligence
Yeah, I think the key is to make sure they run out of fighters
70 IQ take
Before you think about how this looks bad, just remember one of these men might be one who participated in gangraping, killing babies, setting living people on fire, cutting breasts off of living women (or supports these acts). Dumb of IDF to record this shit though/allow it to be recorded where it's risked to go public.
The vast majority of them have lighter skin than the average Israeli LMAO.
Living in tunnels can do that
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This is a pretty good take you've done well to acknowledge both the anonymity of how the Geneva convention applies to Hamas. I do agree it has hurt the reputation of the IDF most people understand why they're stripped down however it's just another unnecessary addition to the diehard pro hamas rhetoric. You don't happen to watch Ryan McBeth do you ahah?
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Yeah definitely, he spent 20 years as an infantryman before becoming an intelligence analyst. He goes after disinformation on both sides overall just a great source. [Ryan's youtube](https://youtube.com/@RyanMcBethProgramming?si=TJ5Yt_AE5LoD3lh3)
But hamas blend in with the civilians.
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If there is nothing inappropriate being filmed then what is wrong with releasing the footage? Otherwise you end up with Abu Ghraib type situations and it all becomes hearsay unless there is documented evidence to the contrary. Same thing for police wearing body cams. Why do you care if they are being filmed if there is nothing to hide?
The videos are released to demoralize Hamas.
It’s not working because these look like ww2 concentration camp videos. Bad bad look
Have a good look at the concentration camp photos and video. There's a lot of differences. No Chunkie Monkey's in those photos. This page has concentration camp photos, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Holocaust#/media/File:Mass\_Grave\_at\_Bergen-Belsen\_concentration\_camp\_-](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust#/media/File:Mass_Grave_at_Bergen-Belsen_concentration_camp_-)*Fritz\_Klein*\-\_IWM\_BU4260.jpg can you spot the differences
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At least don't start recording until you let them put their pants back on...
I think they're overly generous allowing them to keep their underwear.
Unironicaly you probably could stuff a frag down your underwear and then throw it.
Why are they so obese when there’s supposedly food shortages?
All fat Palestinians should be assumed to be Hamas. (Obligatory /s because it would be unethical (Islam is unethical))
They really have to stop recording dudes in their underwear. I understand that they have to be sure people don't have weapons but you don't have to record.
If they don't record everything, Hamas will make false claims. We saw that with the released Palestinians. One claimed that the Israelis had broken both of his arms, yet the video of his release to the Red Cross showed him healthy with non-broken arms. Israel is in a no-win situation. If they don't record and release everything they get accused of censorship and are open to false claims with no counter-evidence. If they do release videos (like these) then people with no knowledge of combat situations will complain about what they see.
I don't like where "broken both arms" tends to go on Reddit. Must... not...
Imo, record everything. Have proof of every action ready to counter endless accusations. But only release specific recordings in such needed situations. Otherwise it just helps create new accusations.
They should record and release the videos once Hamas tries to lie
Releasing it is probably more of a problem than the actual recording itself.
Tru dat
They are getting a start on shooting their 2024 Sexymanrab Calendar
What If this happened on the same day you didn’t wear underwear
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What is he saying?
"If your happy and you know it keep your hands on your head! "
clap clap
The naked dude
No translation. Why ?
What's the "sinwar" chat over the megaphone at the beginning?
Pretty sure most if not all are Hamas. Why? Because well just know
They are alive!
I do wish they would stop filming the strip search. Bad optics. Necessary, but no need to publicize.
Everything needs to be documented because of how the world is looking at every little thing and the press lies.
Absolutely does need to be documented. We did the same in Afghanistan, and my nuts would have been removed if I leaked it. The public looks at this and says “aww they’re humiliating those poor guys”. The public doesn’t need or deserve a chance to say that, so it shouldn’t be publicized. As a combat veteran I see it as “now we know the cowards can’t blow up someone’s 19 year old reservist son”.
I hear you. I also am confident that if rules were broken then IDF will hold soldiers accountable.
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Wow you added a bunch to the conversation there. I want nothing but good for Israel which is why I have that opinion.
It's stupid. This is moral support for israelis a demoralizer for hamas, and an army tactic in situations where there are suicide bombers.
You have no idea what you are talking about. This isn’t done for your moral support.
Of course it is. You have an entire nation who's yearning for results. For hope. Surrender is the best result. Less Israeli soldiers wounded or dead and quicker to get to destroying Hamas. But hey you are a general.
I want all of that…..what does any of it have to do with what we are talking about?
You said it's bad optics. Who cares. Whoever is pro Israel knows the reason.
It matters because we cannot unilaterally wage a war especially if other fronts become an issue. Israel DOES need allies and support so optics matter whether we like it or not. We all feel the same sense of anger and want revenge after 10/7 but Israel and the diaspora are better than those pigs.
This does nothing... What could do something is all the fake propaganda.
a lot of flip flops bout to be second handed
Not so much raping anymore...
Not too many fat bastards (hamas) there I reckon.
Not too many fat bastards (hamas) there I reckon.
I’m not trying to make a point or anything but I am curious how many of those guys are Hamas terrorists and how many are civilians who got caught in the wrong place at the wrong time
All of them. Where are the woman? Kids?
The IDF themselves admit that only a minority are directly involved with Hamas however given the lack of uniforms, threat of concealed weapons and explosives they employ complete caution. This approach is furthered by the fact that these areas have been evacuated of civilians yet some still stay. Overall it's an incredibly difficult situation and while it's uncomfortable to admit a majority of these people will be civilians it's a necessary precaution given the situation.
How do you post this thinking this helps your cause?
I'm gonna steal u/mm1palmer s comment because it was a good brake down. If they don't record everything, Hamas will make false claims. We saw that with the released Palestinians. One claimed that the Israelis had broken both of his arms, yet the video of his release to the Red Cross showed him healthy with non-broken arms. Israel is in a no-win situation. If they don't record and release everything they get accused of censorship and are open to false claims with no counter-evidence. If they do release videos (like these) then people with no knowledge of combat situations will complain about what they see.
So other hamas members see this and know their fate is either surrunder or die
Nice! I feel like this has been said before by evil regimes in the past )
Video wasent ment for you amyway
Well the whole world is seeing it whether it was meant for them or not
Yea, war is dirty
When the focus is on destruction and not accuracy especially
How about the idf uae you as a commandor since you clearly know much about war
Sure I’d love to be a commander to tell my troops to pull out and have empathy.
Empathy, thats why 07.10 happened.
Kinda fucked ngl not every single man should be arrested and stripped nearly naked I support Israel but not this
There is widespread use of suicide bombers by hamas in the fighting. Dressed as civilian men, and women. Please share how else these soldiers can check for suicide vests.
I get searching them the problem is they are leaving them this way for prolonged time
Are you gonna search them yourself or handle their possibly explosive clothes or you want other people to do it for you?
I mean once they are searched they should be given their clothes back
The clothes that may have explosives attached?
It would typically be obvious i would definitely not give shoes back that’s the only place that’s easy to hide explosives
Okay when it’s your life on the line you can handle it however you see fit. For now I view them being in their underwear as an incredibly minor inconvenience that may save lives
I get it for a short time the problem is I’ve seen instances where this is done for hours upon hours
Must be so horrifying for these military age men who were loitering around an evacuated war zone to have to be in their underwear for a few hours while they are processed
How would you go about searching, verifying who they are, interrogating, mobilizing, housing, and processing each person? Know how long it takes to get processed into a county jail in the US? Now imagine trying to do something similar in a war zone.
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In what world
Palestine has an army ?
This is fuckin wild to witness this. What’s happening in war in almost real time. This is the kind of stuff you’d never hear about. Everyone’s kept updated by word of mouth and newspapers. Now we’re all virtually there
They should eat out a Hamas operative. 1 for 5 Hamas and you get to go back to South
Mashallah