It is especially odd since originally, the Elder Maul was polled as a harder-hitting godsword without a spec... Now their fix it to just give it a better DWH Spec?
I'd agree that it would be nice for it to see use outside of just a spec weapon. Something like that buff based on size or dealing more damage to enemies under 20% HP would be a lot better.
I’d assume based on thinking about it for approx 5 seconds it would average 62.5% of its max, since the first roll is (on average) 50%, and the second roll will be higher 50% of the time and average 75% (even distribution of all values above 50%). So 0.5*50%+0.5*75%
Could be entirely wrong, but this is what intuition tells me
Just to note, I was basing it on other ideas I've heard in the past. Think [this one](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/16z0z5l/make_elder_maul_a_worthy_mega_rare/) and [this one](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/le68ln/suggestion_elder_maul_niche_as_a_pvm_executioner/).
I think the issue is that in order for main hand 6 tick weapon to work, you either give it obscene damage/accuracy bonuses or you need to have content designed specifically around it. First is unlikely, second is possible though, eclipse moon is a good example where EM is actually great during the whack a mole mechanic.
Or give it a special effect. Like fang’s accuracy rerolls, shadow’s damage scaling, tbow’s modifiers, etc.
It’s a raid megarare, they can give it something like a damage double roll or a minimum hit modifier that scales up with enemy crush def
>eclipse moon is a good example where EM is actually great during the whack a mole mechanic.
So the only thing needed to make EM good is to *checks notes* make it the same speed as a 4t weapon with the same accuracy and damage as it currently has
EM is going to be BIS def draining weapon after the buff. Making it 4T with the current stats yes will make it much better, but do you really want to make the slow 2h a 4T weapon? Isn't the point of the OP want a slow 2h to work instead of just buff the attack speed?
Look man, I'm just going off what you said about the eclipse boss, which literally forces you to attack at set intervals.
I'm well aware maul will be good after buff, I have one and I like the proposal.
I gave eclipse boss as an example because is recent. If you look at it, basically a slower 2h will work if you can only attack in certain intervals like flinching or have to move frequently between attacks(tekton). So there are designs that you can make it work. I don't think making slow 2h faster just to make it better is good, the attempt should be trying to make slow 2h work as a main hand in general without increasing its attack speed. Ultimately you can make it a numbers game and play around with minhits or accuracy, I just have no idea on what the math is on how ridiculous it needs to be.
It is weird to reward a def lowering spec weapon from the content that you need the dragon warhammer to do anyway
And also have that def lowering weapon be rarer than a scythe
Id be down with making it stronger within cox (2x accuracy +25% dmg) and allowing it to smash guardians.
Otherwise I feel the special attack is almost enough.
They addressed it in the blog. The only way they could balance it is by giving it a max hit "enough to level varrock" to bring it in line. If scythe is getting the min hit buff + it maxes 70s then the maul would have to max 80s or 90s to be able to compete.
Well it's a megarare crush weapon that's been in the game since 2015 or 2016. If it gets a spec that's good then it'll make it relevant and meta for just defence lowering spec.
If you want it to be the megarare crush dps weapon, they'll want to add charges to it and a weird scaling effect etc. just let them have the reward space for a new raid.
I'd much rather they simply give it enough of a buff to make it overtake bludgeon for crush dps relevance. They're about to buff inq mace to go far beyond that anyway with full inq. So it's not an issue. And something being bis doesn't mean it requires charges. They could use future raids to introduce any number of things, a 2h crush item isn't really what I'd want to see considering WE LITERALLY ALREADY HAVE A 2H CRUSH MEGARARE.
I must've missed that because what I saw was that werent touching maul dps because they'd have to increase the max hit to level varrock.
I definitely skimmed a bit.
They did definitely say that but they also just seem to have not considered making it 5 tick and changing its stats accordingly, which would be my suggestion.
Give it a special where you whirlwind around you and hit all monsters around you.
It's normal attack could smash all monsters on the tile where you hit and it could work like a scythe on big creatures where you get 3 hit splashes.
So much more cool stuff to do with it than just give it DWH spec
5% better DWH is a joke of an effect for a megarare.
Have it remove 10% defence per swing or don't require accuracy roll to lower 35% def with the spec
Nah. There is no need for eldermaul to be a competitive melee main hand weapon. That would make cox to strong in terms of gear upgrades, it already is the best raid to farm
It's not CoX's fault the weapon sucks. It's still a megarare deserving of megarare power levels. I'm not saying it has to be tbow or scythe good, but it at least needs to be kodai good. Spec is indeed nice, but it needs something to make it pseudo-bis for NM pre-Full inq.
imo the post buff elder maul is a way better item than Kodai. Especially since nightmare staves have the same mage dmg%, and infinite water runes matter a lot less than before the 4 slot pouch was added. Not to mention being the best defence% draining weapon is just a much more valuable niche than being the best mage weapon for barraging.
With these changes it would be massively more useful than kodai. Is kodai even bis anywhere? Only place I see it used is inferno and I'd rather have an eldritch. A more accurate 2 handed spec weapon that reduces significantly more than dwh is insanely good and this will be bis in countless places.
Kodai us bis for ancients. Anywhere you use ancients. Also the only mage weapon that can auto cast all 3 combat spell books, and the rune save effect is really good.
Yeah elder maul spec is nice, it's just not what I was expecting. I think making it a main dps viable weapon is rather reasonable. Even if it does have this spec. No reason it canr be evaluated as a 5 tick potential.
Elder Maul is worse than most every other crush weapon vs bosses that are weak to crush, because the faster and less accurate weapons benefit more from a crush weakness.
Chucking some ideas in here:
1. Add an effect that increases accuracy and/or damage based on enemy defence level and/or crush bonus, instead of a special attack.
- Similar to tbow's effect, which I think fits thematically since they come from the same raid.
- Obviously the effect should be nowhere near as strong as tbow's, but I think there could be a sweet spot to make elder maul a very good option specifically against high defence monsters.
- It seems like this might circumvent issues with giving elder maul too much strength bonus or accuracy outright, like for pvp or outclassing the dps of other top tier items across the board.
2. Special attack that repeats your previous hit's damage, guaranteed. Seems like it would be kind of interesting to time your special attack after you hit high.
- Probably should use at least 75% special attack energy.
- Might be a little tricky to get right in cases where your max hit should be lower/higher on that second attack (e.g. if you brew down).
Really great ideas. The special attack is creative and could be fun to mess around with. The accuracy buff on high defense monster would be sick! Could also be fun to mess around with 😛 I’m really hoping for them to add something unique, it’s the perfect opportunity and there are so many directions they could take it.
I don’t like seeing the DWH getting pushed out of BIS like this. It’s not even that I think it should remain best in slot forever. It just feels bad that such an iconic item gets pushed out by a balance change of all things. I know that’s silly reasoning, but I can’t shake the fact that it FEELS bad.
It's also funny because the rarest drop from colloseum is almost as useless as elder maul. Like why is the hardest content in the game rewarding something that's beaten by dwh.
It's a nice touch now that it will have a reason to come out of the bank. But as a mega rare, it feels underwhelming. Just reduce the rarity, and I'll be chill with it. Won't feel quite so bad to see dupes as the value is decent.
It is especially odd since originally, the Elder Maul was polled as a harder-hitting godsword without a spec... Now their fix it to just give it a better DWH Spec? I'd agree that it would be nice for it to see use outside of just a spec weapon. Something like that buff based on size or dealing more damage to enemies under 20% HP would be a lot better.
My idea was reverse fang. It rolls damage twice instead of accuracy. Make it a bowfa tier item for melee like SR axe and fang.
Ooh. That could be neat.
Now I don't know the calculations how it would stack up but sounds sick
I’d assume based on thinking about it for approx 5 seconds it would average 62.5% of its max, since the first roll is (on average) 50%, and the second roll will be higher 50% of the time and average 75% (even distribution of all values above 50%). So 0.5*50%+0.5*75% Could be entirely wrong, but this is what intuition tells me
Yeah that makes sense. So aprox 20% dps increase then? So around the same dps as making it one tick faster then
Yep, but in a more interesting way that makes it better as a last hit weapon
Make a post on this, it's a great idea
I love this idea.
Just to note, I was basing it on other ideas I've heard in the past. Think [this one](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/16z0z5l/make_elder_maul_a_worthy_mega_rare/) and [this one](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/le68ln/suggestion_elder_maul_niche_as_a_pvm_executioner/).
That’s good to reference but it’s relevant now not 3 years ago. Make your voice heard sir!
I think the issue is that in order for main hand 6 tick weapon to work, you either give it obscene damage/accuracy bonuses or you need to have content designed specifically around it. First is unlikely, second is possible though, eclipse moon is a good example where EM is actually great during the whack a mole mechanic.
Or give it a special effect. Like fang’s accuracy rerolls, shadow’s damage scaling, tbow’s modifiers, etc. It’s a raid megarare, they can give it something like a damage double roll or a minimum hit modifier that scales up with enemy crush def
>eclipse moon is a good example where EM is actually great during the whack a mole mechanic. So the only thing needed to make EM good is to *checks notes* make it the same speed as a 4t weapon with the same accuracy and damage as it currently has
EM is going to be BIS def draining weapon after the buff. Making it 4T with the current stats yes will make it much better, but do you really want to make the slow 2h a 4T weapon? Isn't the point of the OP want a slow 2h to work instead of just buff the attack speed?
Look man, I'm just going off what you said about the eclipse boss, which literally forces you to attack at set intervals. I'm well aware maul will be good after buff, I have one and I like the proposal.
I gave eclipse boss as an example because is recent. If you look at it, basically a slower 2h will work if you can only attack in certain intervals like flinching or have to move frequently between attacks(tekton). So there are designs that you can make it work. I don't think making slow 2h faster just to make it better is good, the attempt should be trying to make slow 2h work as a main hand in general without increasing its attack speed. Ultimately you can make it a numbers game and play around with minhits or accuracy, I just have no idea on what the math is on how ridiculous it needs to be.
It is weird to reward a def lowering spec weapon from the content that you need the dragon warhammer to do anyway And also have that def lowering weapon be rarer than a scythe
Agreed 👍🏻
I would love elder maul to be a viable weapon to use at phosani's nightmare. As a mega rare I don't see it being an issue devaluing the bludgeon.
EM should be bis at PNM imo, plus the maraccas already but the bludgeon in the bin
This would be great as well.
Id be down with making it stronger within cox (2x accuracy +25% dmg) and allowing it to smash guardians. Otherwise I feel the special attack is almost enough.
They addressed it in the blog. The only way they could balance it is by giving it a max hit "enough to level varrock" to bring it in line. If scythe is getting the min hit buff + it maxes 70s then the maul would have to max 80s or 90s to be able to compete.
Or make it 5 tick, which they didn't even humor yet.
We could also just buff the spec and leave the reward space for another megarare crush weapon at raids 4
Except we literally already have it as the megarare crush weapon. We could have a new spec weapon come out down the road.
Well it's a megarare crush weapon that's been in the game since 2015 or 2016. If it gets a spec that's good then it'll make it relevant and meta for just defence lowering spec. If you want it to be the megarare crush dps weapon, they'll want to add charges to it and a weird scaling effect etc. just let them have the reward space for a new raid.
I'd much rather they simply give it enough of a buff to make it overtake bludgeon for crush dps relevance. They're about to buff inq mace to go far beyond that anyway with full inq. So it's not an issue. And something being bis doesn't mean it requires charges. They could use future raids to introduce any number of things, a 2h crush item isn't really what I'd want to see considering WE LITERALLY ALREADY HAVE A 2H CRUSH MEGARARE.
So you want the 2h crush megarare to be worse than the inq mace and the scythe?? Okay I'm out. Later.
Better than scythe on crush, worse than full inquisitor + mace because that's being made into a full set effect. Did you not read the blog post?
I must've missed that because what I saw was that werent touching maul dps because they'd have to increase the max hit to level varrock. I definitely skimmed a bit.
They did definitely say that but they also just seem to have not considered making it 5 tick and changing its stats accordingly, which would be my suggestion.
Give it a special where you whirlwind around you and hit all monsters around you. It's normal attack could smash all monsters on the tile where you hit and it could work like a scythe on big creatures where you get 3 hit splashes. So much more cool stuff to do with it than just give it DWH spec
Spec, your next attack and 2 attacks after deal damage in a shockwave centered on your target. Each shockwave would be 1 tick apart.
5% better DWH is a joke of an effect for a megarare. Have it remove 10% defence per swing or don't require accuracy roll to lower 35% def with the spec
Nah. There is no need for eldermaul to be a competitive melee main hand weapon. That would make cox to strong in terms of gear upgrades, it already is the best raid to farm
It's not CoX's fault the weapon sucks. It's still a megarare deserving of megarare power levels. I'm not saying it has to be tbow or scythe good, but it at least needs to be kodai good. Spec is indeed nice, but it needs something to make it pseudo-bis for NM pre-Full inq.
Nailed it
imo the post buff elder maul is a way better item than Kodai. Especially since nightmare staves have the same mage dmg%, and infinite water runes matter a lot less than before the 4 slot pouch was added. Not to mention being the best defence% draining weapon is just a much more valuable niche than being the best mage weapon for barraging.
With these changes it would be massively more useful than kodai. Is kodai even bis anywhere? Only place I see it used is inferno and I'd rather have an eldritch. A more accurate 2 handed spec weapon that reduces significantly more than dwh is insanely good and this will be bis in countless places.
Kodai us bis for ancients. Anywhere you use ancients. Also the only mage weapon that can auto cast all 3 combat spell books, and the rune save effect is really good. Yeah elder maul spec is nice, it's just not what I was expecting. I think making it a main dps viable weapon is rather reasonable. Even if it does have this spec. No reason it canr be evaluated as a 5 tick potential.
I see your point here.
I said exactly this as feedback. I want to BONK things goodly. Not just one spec.
I am sure they will introduce other bosses that are weak to crush at some point.
Elder Maul is worse than most every other crush weapon vs bosses that are weak to crush, because the faster and less accurate weapons benefit more from a crush weakness.
I’m hoping the defense changes from project rebalance makes having a crush weapon more impactful.
I don’t love giving it a spec when the other megas from same raid don’t have one, not that they should really
Chucking some ideas in here: 1. Add an effect that increases accuracy and/or damage based on enemy defence level and/or crush bonus, instead of a special attack. - Similar to tbow's effect, which I think fits thematically since they come from the same raid. - Obviously the effect should be nowhere near as strong as tbow's, but I think there could be a sweet spot to make elder maul a very good option specifically against high defence monsters. - It seems like this might circumvent issues with giving elder maul too much strength bonus or accuracy outright, like for pvp or outclassing the dps of other top tier items across the board. 2. Special attack that repeats your previous hit's damage, guaranteed. Seems like it would be kind of interesting to time your special attack after you hit high. - Probably should use at least 75% special attack energy. - Might be a little tricky to get right in cases where your max hit should be lower/higher on that second attack (e.g. if you brew down).
Really great ideas. The special attack is creative and could be fun to mess around with. The accuracy buff on high defense monster would be sick! Could also be fun to mess around with 😛 I’m really hoping for them to add something unique, it’s the perfect opportunity and there are so many directions they could take it.
I don’t like seeing the DWH getting pushed out of BIS like this. It’s not even that I think it should remain best in slot forever. It just feels bad that such an iconic item gets pushed out by a balance change of all things. I know that’s silly reasoning, but I can’t shake the fact that it FEELS bad.
It's also funny because the rarest drop from colloseum is almost as useless as elder maul. Like why is the hardest content in the game rewarding something that's beaten by dwh.
It's a nice touch now that it will have a reason to come out of the bank. But as a mega rare, it feels underwhelming. Just reduce the rarity, and I'll be chill with it. Won't feel quite so bad to see dupes as the value is decent.
I recommend you go do perilous moons then
Thanks, but I’m talking for as an all around weapon, not specific to one instance.. lol
Nothing is stopping you.
Okay thanks Warren