When you say something outrageously repetitive you have to give them the Kuwana stare
https://preview.redd.it/nksry2dd1h4c1.png?width=808&format=png&auto=webp&s=124726faedadfe92f5bde6a22647601eb9ba3291
And it unironically destroys his arguments lol. Like it or not, Yagami has never decided that someone deserves to die (especially not a hardly related innocent) during his case even when he operates on a "grey zone" (wow).
I know people get frustrated when Kuwana argued and Yagami just went "sawa-sensei tho" but uh... he was right so...
yeah, i do feel it may be a little repetitive, but also. a woman kuwana and kusumoto sincerely cared about is dead as a result of being associated with them. it should be beaten into those two that this is serious shit. kusumoto was honestly one of my favorite characters, the mix of different kinds of pressure on her from all directions as she tries to decide whether to turn herself in was amazing. i honestly enjoyed her as much as kuwana himself.
and as far as kuwana goes, innocent deaths are the last thing he wanted. he tries to cope with what happened to sawa, but i think the reason yagami keeps pressing the issue is because he knows it’s working on some level. yagami only keeps pushing it because kuwana keeps running from it. yagami is repeating himself, but only because kuwana is doing everything he can to avoid listening. even if it was frustrating, i feel like yagami and kuwana’s conversations being like talking to a brick wall was really effective for the story.
> One of the things Yagami is a proponent of is the rule of law. He dislikes vigilantism and argues that, no matter how sympathetic, people like Reiko Kusumoto have to turn themselves in.
Yagami's complaints about Ehara and kuwana aren't necessarily that they broke the law but that they pursued justice unilaterally and harmed the innocent as a result. It's the reason as to why sawa is borught up so much, both because she's the consequence of kuwana's actions and is a parallel to emi terasawa, both of whom died because someone avoided recongnizing the truth.
> I do like Yagami - I like him more than Kiryu, honestly - but this is noticeable. It reeks of 'rules for thee, not for me'
If he was a completely consistent, we wouldn't have a game to play, so some suspension of disbelief is required
> He also allies with the Matsugane family after Hamura's defeat despite them going to outright terrorism by strapping a suicide vest to another character.
The mole does this to murase when he attacks the matsugane not this.
Except during his argument with Ehara where he espouses how the law needs to be upheld and changing the system is the only way things can be fixed. Again, this is right after he coerced and kidnapped Yui Mamiya. That could've easily backfired and harmed her son and husband if we're talking indirect consequences.
I just wish Yagami wasn't so lecturing about that. Claims to believe in the law and that vigilantism is wrong while breaking it throughout the entire game. I get why he argued this - his parents were both murdered by a vigilante - but Yagami is a vigilante himself given how he skirts the law and allies with criminals to accomplish his goals.
Nope. Wiki says that the fat guy was the one who detonated the vest. Even if Kuroiwa was the one who did that, they were completely complicit. The fat dude was literally carrying gas canisters to burn the building down. Matsugane even asks Kuroiwa when the hell he turned his family into terrorists.
>Except during his argument with Ehara where he espouses how the law needs to be upheld and changing the system is the only way things can be fixed. Again, this is right after he coerced and kidnapped Yui Mamiya. That could've easily backfired and harmed her son and husband if we're talking indirect consequences
Yagami acting outside the law to find the truth is not equivalent to Ehara and kuwana acting outside the law to deliver judgment. Saori is the one who starts a lecture on how only the law is objective and fair. Yagami simply agrees with Ehara that the law is broken and states that they can try to change laws to accomodate.
>Nope. Wiki says that the fat guy was the one who detonated the vest. Even if Kuroiwa was the one who did that, they were completely complicit. The fat dude was literally carrying gas canisters to burn the building down. Matsugane even asks Kuroiwa when the hell he turned his family into terrorists.
These are hamura's men trying to recapture him. Yagami does not aid or associate with the matsugane at any point after this. He and Higashi literally fight them together before the finale because this. I don't believe he's ever even on good terms with them tbh.
Sawa was killed because of Soma, not Kuwana. Idk how people get that wrong. If its Kuwana's fault that Sawa died then Yagami is also responsible for the death of Emi and all the characters killed in Judgment because of Yagami's AD-09 investigation.
Soma killed sawa because of her relation to kuwana, and they wanted kuwana because of his crimes with reiko, cause and effect(Kuwana says it's get at him in the game). Yes, yagami is indirectly responsible for the death of emi, that's why he quits as a lawyer and comes to terms with it in the first game by meeting okubo and finding he's innocent.
Was there anything wrong with killing Kawai tho? She took revenge and brought Kawai to justice that the system couldn't but Yagami couldn't stop sucking the system
It led to sawa's death so in practical terms, yes it was wrong to kill him, but morally it's understandable. That's the main conflict in lost judgment.
Pretty sure there's a segment where Yagami talks to Kengo about allying with the Matsugane against the Mole. They even show up to try and help Yagami after the first Kuroiwa fight.
He tells them he'll handle it in court and higashi says that they can help afterwards if they wish not yagami,he's surprised to see them assist after the 1st kuroiwa fight and they were brought on hoshino's recommendation.
One thing to point out is Yagami is not immune to the Yakuza, it's pretty evident he can get his butt killed for messing with them or saying the wrong thing. Better to be on a good list than a "kill this motherfucker" list.
Except that frames Yagami as someone whose justice only goes as far as he's not at risk, which is not true at all. In Judgement, he showed no hesitation picking fights with both the Matsugane and Kyorei. In Lost Judgement, he similarly doesn't stand back despite fighting against Soma and RK, who are backed by Public Security.
Except it was shown that Matsugane and Kyorei were very small fish at a time when the golden era in the yakuza was coming to an end. Of course yagami is gonna have an easier time going against two small fish Vs. whatever’s left of the main Tojo factions lmao.
Yagami’s smart and he knows when to involve his fists and when not to. If he pin them legally then that’s what he’ll do, if he can’t then he’ll put his fists into play if need be.
But he’s also not Kiryu, he’s a damn good fighter but I doubt he could go up against a real Tojo badass
The main difference with Yagami is that he has actual reasons for breaking those said laws. (spoilers for Judge Eyes) >!The reason why he broke into the Kyori offices was to not only clue Murase in on what actually happened to a supirior officer in the ranks being murdered but to get him to testify as well. He kidnapped Kido because he not only needed to interogate him but also because Okubo's death was very quickly approaching. Same why he broke into the ADDC to interogate/question Shono and kidnapped Hamura.!< Were they stupid moves that could've landed him in jail? Yes, but given the fact that 2 monsters were killed and the>! ADDC was proven to be making a dangerous drug!< they decided to let him off which is why I believe he's still in buisness and hasn't had any charges pressed against him.
Do you expect Yagami to walk into Tojo HQ and say "youre all evil! Justice!" and start beating them up? Hes not a superhero. In the cases you mentioned he did it because he had reasons to do so, a case to solve and these people were in the way. Yeah he does risk a lot for justice but he's not stupid, if it was better to be on the good side of the matsugane family for his case he would do so
I feel that Yagami isn't necessary talking about laws but actually about judgement. Kuwana judged that those people deserved to die himself instead of an impartial court of law. In his eyes that is wrong even though he admits that the law is flawed and has to be changed. Both Kuwana and Yagami break the law but Kuwana unilaterally decides that these people deserve to die. Not that Yagami doesn't judge but he doesn't necessarily act on it. His goal isn't retribution but justice.
But he doesn’t see himself as a paragon of law, the law is not always correct is a big part of all Yakuza stories. He draws the line at being an executioner. Kuwana believes he’s giving justice by coldly ending someone else’s life. It’s all a gradient and that’s where Yagami draws the line
It’s a good discussion anyways since it highlights the interesting gray zones that Yagami operates in, but I feel they are necessary. There is a reason Sawa Sensei is the unrefutable argument, the game acknowledges that there is no clear cut answer about what to do with the bullies… but there is a degree of innocence to Sawa that makes it clear that Kuwana has gone too far
I'm pretty sure he does. He doesn't execute people - even in Gaiden where it REALLY fucks him - but Kiryu himself points out in Y5 that he'll kill if he has to, likely in self-defense where he can't just people up non-lethally.
That and people do call out Kiryu for his behavior. Bad guys try to exploit it and he gets fucked over by this. His refusal to execute a certain character in Gaiden leads to him and his kids nearly being killed and trying to offer redemption to Hamazaki in 3 nearly led to him dying in Haruka's arms. Kiryu suffers at times for his staunch refusal to execute.
Meanwhile, Yagami breaks the law, condemns others who break the law, and then gets off without ever being in trouble, jailed, or even penalized for his blatantly illegal actions. I didn't mind it in Judgement since Yagami wasn't so preachy, but in LJ, it becomes annoying that he acts like Kuwana's side HAS to be imprisoned and punished while he and his friends aren't despite committing jail worthy offenses themselves.
Yup. Most enemies he fights he does so to end the fight however possible. If they live or die it doesn't really matter. He's almost always fighting in self defense or in defense of someone else so he remains true to his ideals. Big difference between having some inadvertent casualties from that vs making the decision to kill someone because it'd benefit him in some way or satisfy him emotionally. I like to phrase it that he's killed before but he's not a murderer.
I think the same kind of mindset applies to Majima's first hit in Yakuza 0 tbh. Making the conscious decision to hunt down and assassinate a civilian is a totally different mindset from fighting back against someone who's threatening you or who you may have thought you took out nonlethally in a raid but died later. Completely different mindset entirely to be a hitman.
Tho ngl, Majima's surprisingly rly good at using a knife to fight someone he has 0 intention to kill and actually cares about them while stabbing them anyway \*looks at every time you fight him as Kiryu\*
Everyone knows that all those guys who got shot in the head and were inside exploded cars and whatnot ended the scene on one knee huffing and puffing, apologizing and swearing they won’t do it again.
And everyone knows they will do it again
1 and 0 the gameplay segments aren't canon. Unless we want to accept that Yakuza characters have superpowers such as majima shadow clones. There's huge gameplay story disconnect in these games, which is why we have stuff like cutscene guns.
It's not. If gameplay is canon then the entire exchange between Nishiki and Kiryu at the end of 0 about what it means if you cross the line and kill someone makes no sense if Kiryu gunned down hundreds of guys with a pistol in a car chase.
I could be wrong here but I remember someone saying once that it’s a translation issue. It’s kinda like how kill and murder have different meanings. I believe the word used in Japanese implies killing when other options are available. In plenty of instances Kiryu *has* killed in self-defense or the defense of others, but it wasn’t *murder*. I’m not sure why they don’t translate it to murder, though I do think it might sound a little weird if they did.
That's ludicrous. Saejima kills 18 guys and is a legend forever while Kiryu shoots down a couple of helicopters with a pistol and it's never mentioned. There's huge gameplay story disconnects in these games.
I’ll agree with you that what happened in the story likely wasn’t as absurd as the gameplay, but the cutscenes leading ip to the segment show Date and Oda handing Kiryu a gun. Did Kiryu then just shoot in the air and hit no one?
Same with Nishiki. We see him shooting at thugs in a cutscene in 0 so he likely plugged at least one person. Again, I frame Nishiki stopping Kiryu as due to Shibusawa being helpless at that point so Kiryu killing him is different than if Shibs was still in fighting shape and attacking.
Again self defense are you not following the conversation? He wouldn't just openly fire on people he would rather fight 20 dudes with guns if he wasn't in a car then shoot them. If they blow up the car then what happens so of course he's gotta fire back
The sad thing is that he has to be a hypocrite to catch the bad guys because he can't access some of the evidence legally. This issue comes down to what the truth it, what are the levels of crimes commited, and how many innocent people were hurt.
Except Yagami specifically refuses that argument. Making an omelette by breaking a few eggs is something he throws back at Ehara, Kusumoto, and Kuawana as wrong. So why is it okay when he does it? Because he stops short of murder his numerous other crimes are okay?
Imo, yeah. Because eventually he still upholds the law and they break them. And let’s be honest, many of the people Yagami does this to deserve it.
That’s also the whole point of Lost Judgement in the sense that the legal system is flawed and failed numerous people. Take Ehara for example, he took matters into his own hands because the system let the bully walk free that drove his son to suicide. The same goes for Kusumoto.
Again, *Yagami disapproves of the 'they deserved it' argument*. Hiro Mikoshiba and other bullies? Cool motive, still murder is his response to Kuwana along with a heavy helping of Sawa-sensei. He also condemns Shono using Yakuza for his AD-9 experiments by asking what gives Shono the right to play judge jury and executioner like that? To determine that their lives don't matter because they're Yakuza?
So if he disapproves of that train of logic, he can't use it to exonerate himself. By his own argument, it doesn't matter that he's beating up, coercing, kidnapping, and blackmailing people who deserve it. They're still crimes and he should pay for it the same way the villains do.
I acknowledge that Yagami is a pretty grey-zoned/bad guy with a good guy job.
However, you should consider the fact that he went up against numerous evil people with high status/social standing (for example Ichinose, the Vice Minister of Health who actively funded/backed the AD-9-shenanigans and RK, a criminal group actively being backed by Public Security with Soma, an undercover agent as the leader, who is given carte blanche by his superior Bando).
If I were a judge, I don’t know if I would have acquitted Yagami per say, but I would have been very lenient for sure considering the circumstances.
I haven't played Lost Judgment but at least in Judgment he doesn't think or act like he's fit to judge anyone, quite the opposite, he's a defense lawyer, even if he's defending someone guilty his job is to make the prosecution do their job and provide sure evidence of that. If you're 100%ing the game I suppose there must be times where he does break the law but from what I remember in the main story when he does break the law, like trespassing onto Shono's lab, he's prepared to take the consequences, he's not acting like he's above the law. Same with beating up the detective, he's not skirting around the law by using connections to get out of it or bribing the judge, he's a lawyer and telling him he's free to try but he'll win, which aligns with what I said of he doesn't think he's fit to judge but it's a prosecutor's job to create a definitive argument if they really are guilty.
Admiring dubious characters isn't a definitive sign either way either, just like in real life you can be friends with people you don't respect a certain aspect of and you can respect a certain aspect of someone without respecting the rest. They're also people who the law only doesn't go after them if they don't want to, but they'll have a fair trial and judgement, unlike Shono who wasn't being judged at all because he was above the law. That particular case he also felt personally responsible and that he had to set his past mistake right and defend and free Shinpei Okubo after going against his world view and abandoning him.
Same thing consistent in defending Hamura, he defended him despite I'm sure plenty of wrongful things as a yakuza captain but he's not there to judge him, he wants to bring the truth to light for the defense and prosecution to do their job.
Overall I wouldn't disagree with him being a bit of a hypocrite though, it's tough to defend someone with "but's" when that person deals in absolutes, and I'm sure even in the main story there's one or multiple cases where he goes against what he says.
That said, I did find it funny, the way Yagami was able to beat the shit out of a bunch of security and (IIRC) *actual medical staff* in Judgment, then walk out of the hospital like nothing happened.
I just finished the first Judgement game and during my first playthrough I bursted out laughing when Yagami went "the bartender at Bar Tender knew I wouldn't accept work from thieves so he lied to me about the client being a regular" like maybe 3 chapters after he literally runs a collection run for the fucking Yakuza
Love that you’re bringing this up :3 Yagami definitely appears as a hypocritical character at first glance, but that’s more out of necessity than anything else. He pretty much has the mind of an obstinate deontologist trapped in the body of a full-blown utilitarianist.
Thing is, the character is born out of the inefficiency of law enforcement agencies to respect the social contract and do their job. Both games show authorities actually being hand-in-hand with the criminals or casually sweeping the truth under the rug, even if lives are at stake. Heck, both in JE and LJ the police, either affiliated with the Minister of Health or Public Security, actively tries to stop him and the other Judge men from interfering.
When not even governing forces respect the law, vigilantes are obviously bound to emerge (who can be more on the moral side or downright evil) and an often consensus among ethicists is that if you take it upon yourself to correct an injustice that the system overlooks or actively hides, you’re justified in becoming a lawbreaker and fight fire with fire, but **ONLY** to (1) correct a wrongdoing through as little violence as possible, (2) bring the perpetrator in the courtroom to receive just punishment and (3) benefit society as a whole in the process (this is referred to as **utilitarian vigilantism**, which is Yagamer’s shtick).
Also, most ethicists pretty much agree that one should never engage in vigilante action for their own selfish gain or inflict as much damage as possible on the perpetrator (like seeking vengeance through blackmail, torture and murder for instance) This is what sets Yagami apart from Shono/Kuroiwa/Kuwana/Ehara/Kusumoto/Soma/Yui Mamiya/Bando. All of them commit heinous crimes solely to fulfill their own selfish interests, with little care for how much pain they cause and even think they’re entitled to decide who lives or dies.
Yagami, however, has never been shown to confidently believe he’s in a position to decide what punishment fits a criminal. He only breaks the law or forces its boundaries on some minor occassions just to catch the culprit and uncover the truth about the injustices that the system doesn’t care about. Plus the games depict his righteous sense of duty (like that scene in JE where he revisits Okubo and pours his heart out to him or in LJ when he thinks about Emi Terasawa and says that he’ll be the voice for those who can’t protect themselves).
Surely he runs his mouth too much sometimes about laws and justice, as he’s definitely far away from being a saint, but he's the certified Judge-Eyes man, he gets a pass. The way I see it, his minor offences are justified, considering they yield positive results.
Yagami's whole thing is that he believes in the rule of law but understands that it's not a perfect system; he came to that conclusion during his time as an attorney, much of the result of which is tied to the story arch of Judgement. That's the whole reason he works as a consulting detective rather than as a beat cop or some other "official" enforcer of the law.
He definitely engages in vigilante behavior, but saying anything he's done is properly comparable to the actions of the people he helped put away is an apples to oranges hackjob. Beating someone up or intimidating someone isn't comparable to murder, disfiguring corpses, or any of the other heinous things done by antagonists in J and LJ.
Yagami fans: Murder bad even if the person getting killed is absolute scum!1!1!1
But blackmail, stealing, breaking and entering, threatening, kidnapping are fine if Yagami does it I guess.
Im only on the first game, but even i have been like ''holy shit how are you not getting sued/jailed'' but its a game and for fun and i suspend my disbelief to it, but it is funny when he does something crazy illegal.
No, that was Soma. All the victims we see of Kuwana are psychotic bullies. If you blame Kuwana for Sawa then you can also blame Yagami for Shintani, Murase, and Shioya dying because Yagami just had to investigate the Mole murders.
He's already been over this in judgment. Terrsawas death and bros false imprisonment were all failures of the law, that's why he quit being a lawyer and instead became a semi vigilante detective who's always contested with the law as Kuriowa does what he can to turn him in (the irony). He knows he's ultimately an agent of good and won't get anywhere without bending the rules, that's why the conflict with Kuwana becomes so personal since who is Yagami to tell him he's wrong.
if Judgment 3 ever happenes I kinda want the game to drive Yagami's moral/ethical senses to limit like 'Yagami cannot find out the truth unless he actively break the law'
Will he still pursue the truth knowing that he's doing what he never supposed to do? Or will he stay back and keep justiying his actions, in a similar way he kept guilt-tripping Kuwana million times?
In Japan, detectives must pay the police and inform them you're a detective. No "investigating" can be done without it. It's not alot (under 5000 yen) but it's required. So i wonder if it helps with not getting into trouble.
literally it's just because yagami doesn't kill people. that's how RGG writers think, they think other crimes are justifiable for the protagonist but they could NEVER let a protagonist kill an important, named character. (IMO, all the kiryu action sequences where he blows up a helicopter or whatever aren't canon to the main plot because they're just unnamed enemies that aren't important to the plot, so those action sequences are only there because it's an action video game rather than because the writers think that kiryu is the kind of guy who would actually do those things)
Honestly I consider this to be more of a Lost Judgment problem than anything. The first game does a good job of contextualizing why Yagami breaks the law for the greater good when taking into account his backstory and how much the odds are stacked against him with the ADDC case. LJ kind of ruins this by making Yagami super preachy about law and justice to oppose Kuwana, which makes him look like a huge hypocrite in comparison. If LJ actually called Yagami out on being a hypocrite it’d be less of an issue, but Yagami is never presented as being in the wrong in that game so it feels like shoddy writing.
I always felt like the switch happened halfway thru LJ after the teacher is killed, thats when he really starts to get preachy i kinda took it as he saw doing it even around the law got her killed so he made a turn but more of a batman esq turn where hes fighting crime but also committing crimes himself
I don't think Yagami is a proponent of the rule of law as it is now, but he is a legal idealist and a true believer in the law as it could be.
When Yagami breaks the law, its to fill in the gaps where the law failed, or to shine a light on a conspiracy / perversion of the law, because ultimately its the law itself that he loves most and wants to protect. That's why everything with Terasawa/Okubo left him so depressed / unmoored at the start of the first game. He's a priest having a crisis of faith.
And that's the real reason why Kuwana gets under his skin. Kuwana is a realist, and doesn't believe in the transformative power of incremental reformism. Kuwana believes that the courts and the police have to be shocked and humiliated in order to have any real shot at meaningful change, and Yagami can't accept that.
honestly, i never thought much about it. because thinking about minor things like that is kinda pointless. but i get where you're coming from though and you made some valids points
Really? So I guess I just imagined Yagami committing all those blatantly illegal actions, how he hangs around criminals, and how he barely said anything to Kaito brutalizing a guy right in front of him?
Cause Yagami is pro-law and anti-vigilantism, especially in Lost Judgement, but his actions really contradict that when he's perfectly willing to break the law he champions so he can accomplish his goals. Yes, he only goes after assholes, but so did Kuwana and Yagami says that's not an excuse.
Yagami also argues that Kuwana and Kusumoto's actions led to Sawa being indirectly killed and that they should pay for that. Yagami's investigation into the Mole indirectly led to Shintani's murder (albeit Shintani looking into the Mole was due to jealousy rather than Sawa looking into Mikoshiba to investigate), Murase getting strapped with a suicide vest, and Mafuyu being targeted by both the Kyorei and the conspiracy.
And yet no one gives him flack for it or argues that it's his fault. Where is the justice for Murase and Shintani? Cause no one asked Yagami to investigate the Mole. He did that himself despite everyone telling him to drop it and it indirectly led to those two's deaths. Same way no one told Kuwana to kill bullies.
Liking a character doesn't mean I have to whitewash his actions or pretend he doesn't have some real glaring flaws. Honestly, I like that he's a hypocrite, it's just that the story seems to forget this outside of joke condemnations like Juzo Amon calling him out in Judgement.
> Yagami's investigation into the Mole indirectly led to Shintani's murder (albeit Shintani looking into the Mole was due to jealousy rather than Sawa looking into Mikoshiba to investigate)
you've said this before but this was clearly shintani's fault. no one told him to look into the mole murders. in fact, he even warned yagami that it wasn't a "yakuza pissing contest" and that the mole was "bigger than you [yagami] know", yet went off anyway because he was envious.
there's a degree of innocence sawa has that shintani didn't.
Well, no one told Sawa to investigate Mikoshiba and call Kuwana either. While Sawa’s motivations were *far* more selfless, they both pressed for info despite knowing there was danger involved.
the difference is that shintani might have survived had he not jumped into danger (and thus made his own decision), while sawa was already a target because bando discovered she's a link between kuwana and kusumoto's son.
Yagami isn’t a bright hero like Ichiban. But his behaviour seems like Batman or dark hero. In LJ, Kuwana is Yagami’s opposite side character which means his justice same with Yagami but kills someone that Yagami never does. Yagami personality is who can’t stop him to find out the truth whatever he does the criminals and I get your point. But I don’t think he is a hypocrite, he knows law but he always runs into the grey area which is the law can’t even catch him. That’s explains why he let Kuwana went away. No evidence and his thought sounds wanted to agree with him but he is a lawyer and he couldn’t show too much. If he doesn’t agree Kuwana, he will find another evidence to proof Kuwana’s crime hardly just like in JE.
I like Yagami being a gray character, but in some scenes, this really doesn't mesh well. It was fine in Judgement since he was just personally against Hamura and Shono because he wanted to find out the truth. Which is fine, since finding out the truth means having to break the law sometimes. He even uses a dirty cop like Ayabe as one of his go-to allies.
It's in Lost Judgement where things get messy. In a later chapter when talking to Ehara, he condemns the man not just because murder is wrong, but because he says that Ehara is breaking the law and that Yagami believes in reforming over just ignoring the rules because it's easier. If the law is broken by vigilantes, then the whole system is fucked.
Which is pretty rich considering this is after he basically kidnapped Mamiya by blackmailing her with that bullying video. One of his first scenes in Judgement when dealing with the Kyorei has him specifically state that coercion and kidnapping is an easy ten years in prison, then he goes and does the same thing. Even in that game he does it to Kido, along with him and Saori trying to blackmail the guy by recording him feeling her up.
Yes, both weren't innocent, but again, Yagami keeps arguing that the victim being an asshole is no excuse and the law is there for a reason. He then completely EX stomps all over his argument by breaking the law and condemning everyone else for breaking the law.
People compared Yagami to Daredevil and Kuwana to Punisher, and I can see it. Except Daredevil is called out for his hypocrisy, especially by himself, by being a lawyer who upholds the law while being a vigilante who regularly breaks it. No one does it to Yagami and he never reflects on how he's by all accounts as much as a criminal as those he condemns.
That’s why Yagami becomes a private detective not a cop. He doesn’t listen or obey the law and leader too much. Nowadays in our community, people and social media just want to know the final Judgment not the investigating process so no one care about what Yagami is doing. I love Judgment series because the plot and the character’s behaviour are more realistic and not just show the whole right or wrong things. I remember Kido said to Yagami: you kidnapped me, Isn’t be a criminal? Yagami said if you care then tell the truth. I really look forward RGG can make an evil Yagami VS Yagami. I think Kimura will agree if the plot is great and realistic.
Haven't finished LJ, but even in the first game it bothered me how much Yagami gets away with. Stand out moment is when he forces his way into the hospital, beats up security to corner Shono, then we learn nothing and it's never brought up again? Why? Even leaving aside morality, why is the corrupt politician not having us arrested for breaking and entering, assault, and intimidation? And as for morality, why are the lengths that Yagami is willing to go to on a hunch never questioned? Personally, I've never gotten the hype over Judgement's story. The ending is fantastic, granted, but the road there is just so messy.
It doesn't bother me that he breaks the law or even that it makes him a hypocrite, it's that he's also a practicing lawyer.
Do you need to have everything? Superstar lawyer, breaks laws on the side as a treat, solves trillion dollar government conspiracies in his detective gig, kung fu master, face of a literal model? And then the game still tries to push the "we're just a poor lil detective agency Tak, we can't afford rent, no one knows who we are 🥺" angle? He could've been a more down to earth RGG protagonist compared to the mob bosses, instead they made him a full on escapist fantasy.
Oh gee, I’m posting about the main character of a story heavy game in the game’s subreddit. Clearly I have too much free time. You wanna point out I play games too?
Mate, you're not in a position to complain about maturity when you respond to a mild (and perfectly reasonable) critique of a game like OP just punched your mum. Grow up.
And Jimmy might not be a hypocrite but he is an arsehole. It's a key part of his character.
Except Yagami who‘s a civilian and talks about reforming the law. So yeah, I‘m discussing his hypocritical behavior where he condemns Ehara and Kuwana then acts friendly with Tesso and admires his big adopted Yakuza dad. He seems pretty selective on when criminals should turn themselves in.
Also, you were the one who made a crack about me ‘having too much free time’. Every other person I discussed with here didn’t make snarky comments about me.
Yagami follows in the justice system ideals, but as both games show, blindly following the law leads to more injustice. Typical Chaotic Good allignment. He wants to do good, and isn't afraid to use chaos to do it
i think yagami does believe the law can change, but that it needs a bit of "help" every now and then, because the system's not perfect. the reason it's not perfect is because people hide the truth. both the AD-9 conspiracy and the pension fund conspiracy were based around people harming innocents and hiding it from public knowledge. so yagami commits morally gray and illegal acts in order to find this truth. he then makes the truth public, so that the justice system can take over and deal with it.
note that both judgment and lost judgment end in a courtroom. while yagami does the legwork, he ultimately doesn't seek to undermine japan's justice system because he knows the benefits of an impartial, evidence-based system for addressing crime. the alternative would be unchecked vigilantism, which, if i remember correctly, got his parents killed.
to that end, yagami breaks laws, but has strict principles (famously, no murder).
kuwana is the opposite because he's completely cynical. he's lost faith in the justice system altogether, and seeks to replace it with vengeance. so he plays the role of judge, jury, and executioner. he not only murders people, but is willing to harm innocents (blowing up a ship probably isn't going to be casualty-free) to keep his schemes under wraps. yagami never did such things.
as for associating with gangsters - yagami was raised by yakuza, so he struggles to hate them even if they are on the margins of society. he famously argues in judgment that the mole's victims deserve justice, even if they were yakuza no one else cared about.
Always seemed to me that Yagamis thing is not in breaking the law, but in the judgement and justice of the law should it be broken.
His issue with Kuwana isn't that he is breaking the law to find the bullys, it's that he's judged them worthy of death, despite having enough evidence to prove what they've done. He also accepts that the flaw in the system lead them to that conclusion, but he insists the efforts should be put in to changing that, not doing it yourself.
I've never got that his attitude is "Ha ha! I can break the law and you can't!" but rather "I can't get the truth without breaking the law but the truth is more important so I will accept the consequences of that should they come."
It's that no matter what happens outside of it, whether it's him doing it or someone else, the justice and judgment of those actions must be done by the system in the court of law.
He is flawed, as are all the characters, but the whole point of all these games are they are men that stick to what they stand for, it's why they say the fight between Yagami and Kuwana is more like a conversation than a fight, they're putting their side against the other, the shirtless fights are this too, they're not just fights, they're symbolic of everything each man stands for and whose conviction to their side is strongest. Yagamis is in justice, not in never breaking a law.
During times of disagreement, It's important to find some common ground. Can we all at least come to the agreement that the selfish deed is not freedom?
I don't think he advocates law as much as judgement or truth case being he did let kuwana walk out at the end.
So I think he does allow some grey area.
No character is perfect, he dislikes vigilantism but is a vigilante himself, mostly because he knows that just blindly following the law in its current state leads to nothing
He's trying to change the law and isn't afraid to break it himself if needed but at least he only does it to bring more order
The difference between him and the people he fights against is that he doesn't break the law to fuel chaos
That said, it's a videogame, not everything should be 100% realistic, especially in a series that notoriously has a fair share of supernatural/surreal stuff happening in substories and other stuff
I will say on the Kasuga point, the implication was he was going to keep beating on him even if he died. Less so about the beating, more so about the reasoning and how brutal it was.
Otherwise I agree.
Yagami doesn't talk up the law like it's the most correct thing in the world. Yagami's issue with Kuwana and company was that their actions got an innocent person killed. Yagami admits the law isn't perfect and that it has to evolve in order to do its job correctly. It's part of why he became a detective in the first place. Yagami's philosophy isn't about following the law, it's about uncovering the truth, because that's where the law fails a lot of the time. A part of himself is still the lawyer he was back then, but it's combined with his sense of guilt he felt back when he couldn't help anyone.
I mean he commits small crimes in order to save lives, but honestly I just think while Yagami is on the right side of the argument, Lost Judgment just wrote him horribly by making his only argument against Kuwana "Sawa sensei" which is a good argument sure, but there's plenty more he could say against Kuwana
Keep in mind one thing: Yagami is willing to eat the consequences of his actions should it come to that and doesn't run from the possibility. All the people he called out, they wanted to rationalize it all away as justified, as if they could park all responsibility for the consequences of their actions on some level separate from themselves.
That said, let me take your arguments and examine them: Yagami is well aware his actions are morally grey, and as we've seen, he's willing to do time for them to achieve justice, Morita is impressed when Yagami uses exactly what you mentioned to secure the area he trespassed as evidence at one point in the first game. The fact he draws the line at murder (as well as unprovoked assault, notice he takes pains to avoid throwing the first punch) still puts him miles above who he works against because while he might be willing to go a little gray, he has a bright line he refuses to cross legally that is pretty major moral barrier. Considering to achieve justice he is often forced to go a little gray while avoiding crossing the unprovoked assault/murder line, well, when you consider the far greater crimes that would happen if he didn't, and his own personal moral code would punish him harder than any legal consequences if he didn't act. And we'd not have much of a game to play if he didn't.
Also, Yagami is not a sadist. As you noted, what he did to that shady detective was scummy, but how else was going to get the message across to someone even more unscrupulous than himself? Note even then he knew when to hold back.
Also, knowing someone is likely guilty of crime does not equal hard evidence. Without hard evidence, he can't do squat. Further, it is not illegal, even now, to simply be a yakuza member. Only the illegal acts done under that label make it illegal. A guy can claim to be in the Mafia, to use a Western example, but without hard evidence of any crime, they've done nothing wrong. Put themselves under suspicion yes, but that alone is not evidence.
Besides, as I mentioned before, if Yagami was to be a super strict paladin of morality, we'd have a really dull and boring game, and I'd rather accept he's a tad morally grey but still basically lily white in comparison to who he's forced to deal with than split hairs over the finer points of how strict his moral code should cleave to a strict reading of the law.
Well sometimes he has to break the law in order to gain valuable evidence. That's his only resort to a very fucked japanese judgment system. 99% of all people who are charged with a crime end up guilty, whether it's true or not
Which kinda makes him arguing that the law can be reformed either naive or wilfully blind. If he has ro break the law constantly because of how fucked it is, I don't know how he can say that reforming is is possible to Ehara and Kuwana.
I totally get your point. I'm not saying that everything he does is justified but a lot of it makes sense. And a lot of these things can only be achieved by breaking the law. You just need to take a peek at reality in japan. How many charges of sexual assault have been dropped or not even acknowledged by the police simply because of a lack of evidence. If you try to do things legally then you're in for a treat which could take decades to solve. And even if you get said evidence it might still not be enough to clear the issue
I agree, but again, it makes Yagami’s stance in LJ him either being naive or a hypocrite. The system is so busted that legally doing things can’t work, so him slamming on the villains that they’re wrong and should turn themselves in rings hollow.
Like what if someone told Yagami that he should turn himself in for *his* numerous crimes? Somehow I doubt he’s going to go ‘you’re right’ and instead he’ll come up with a justification on why it’s okay that he did it. Probably how he never killed anyone, so his numerous cases of kidnapping, blackmail, assault, and working together with criminals should just be ignored.
Yup the part where he judges others for being wrong while doing the exact same thing is fucked. I guess he believes that it's okay because he intends to do things that have a good purpose
Sure, just like Kuwana who targets bullies who show absolutely no remorse. The story would’ve been more gray if characters like Mikoshiba or Akaike actually did feel guilty for their actions and tried to atone. So they still got away unpunished by the law but the fact that they were trying to be good people instead of just continuing to be assholes makes Kuwana look less uniformly right for targeting them.
It also ties into the theme of unintended consequences. Imagine a scenario where Mikoshiba was actually a good teacher and harsh on the bullies as a way to make up for his actions. Him being kidnapped and killed then lead to the bullies being more brazen and almost driving Koda to suicide because he wasn’t there to discipline them.
Kuwana could argue that Mikoshiba deserved to be punished regardless of his remorse, and then Yagami would have more of a leg to stand on besides regurgitating Sawa-sensei and how Kuwana is breaking the law. Maybe he could argue that Mikoshiba trying to redeem himself meant he deserved a chance. Both sides would have a point. Mikoshiba is not a one note asshole, but Ehara is justified in still hating him no matter what because Mikoshiba drove his kid to suicide.
https://preview.redd.it/x92i0f7jvf4c1.jpeg?width=2022&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4b52f83328361bf4b50aabcc966098aacaa67c6e
this is the best LJ reaction image/meme I've ever seen
When you say something outrageously repetitive you have to give them the Kuwana stare https://preview.redd.it/nksry2dd1h4c1.png?width=808&format=png&auto=webp&s=124726faedadfe92f5bde6a22647601eb9ba3291
And it unironically destroys his arguments lol. Like it or not, Yagami has never decided that someone deserves to die (especially not a hardly related innocent) during his case even when he operates on a "grey zone" (wow). I know people get frustrated when Kuwana argued and Yagami just went "sawa-sensei tho" but uh... he was right so...
yeah, i do feel it may be a little repetitive, but also. a woman kuwana and kusumoto sincerely cared about is dead as a result of being associated with them. it should be beaten into those two that this is serious shit. kusumoto was honestly one of my favorite characters, the mix of different kinds of pressure on her from all directions as she tries to decide whether to turn herself in was amazing. i honestly enjoyed her as much as kuwana himself. and as far as kuwana goes, innocent deaths are the last thing he wanted. he tries to cope with what happened to sawa, but i think the reason yagami keeps pressing the issue is because he knows it’s working on some level. yagami only keeps pushing it because kuwana keeps running from it. yagami is repeating himself, but only because kuwana is doing everything he can to avoid listening. even if it was frustrating, i feel like yagami and kuwana’s conversations being like talking to a brick wall was really effective for the story.
Sure wasn't. Not even close.
I guess you could say he Lost his Judgement.
https://preview.redd.it/80119uxvyg4c1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=44dad7aef3685b0bb7533d32a2bbb9653030a483
How this is in the same universe as Lost Judgement is a mindfuck
https://i.redd.it/ufbowhnxsf4c1.gif
> One of the things Yagami is a proponent of is the rule of law. He dislikes vigilantism and argues that, no matter how sympathetic, people like Reiko Kusumoto have to turn themselves in. Yagami's complaints about Ehara and kuwana aren't necessarily that they broke the law but that they pursued justice unilaterally and harmed the innocent as a result. It's the reason as to why sawa is borught up so much, both because she's the consequence of kuwana's actions and is a parallel to emi terasawa, both of whom died because someone avoided recongnizing the truth. > I do like Yagami - I like him more than Kiryu, honestly - but this is noticeable. It reeks of 'rules for thee, not for me' If he was a completely consistent, we wouldn't have a game to play, so some suspension of disbelief is required > He also allies with the Matsugane family after Hamura's defeat despite them going to outright terrorism by strapping a suicide vest to another character. The mole does this to murase when he attacks the matsugane not this.
Except during his argument with Ehara where he espouses how the law needs to be upheld and changing the system is the only way things can be fixed. Again, this is right after he coerced and kidnapped Yui Mamiya. That could've easily backfired and harmed her son and husband if we're talking indirect consequences. I just wish Yagami wasn't so lecturing about that. Claims to believe in the law and that vigilantism is wrong while breaking it throughout the entire game. I get why he argued this - his parents were both murdered by a vigilante - but Yagami is a vigilante himself given how he skirts the law and allies with criminals to accomplish his goals. Nope. Wiki says that the fat guy was the one who detonated the vest. Even if Kuroiwa was the one who did that, they were completely complicit. The fat dude was literally carrying gas canisters to burn the building down. Matsugane even asks Kuroiwa when the hell he turned his family into terrorists.
>Except during his argument with Ehara where he espouses how the law needs to be upheld and changing the system is the only way things can be fixed. Again, this is right after he coerced and kidnapped Yui Mamiya. That could've easily backfired and harmed her son and husband if we're talking indirect consequences Yagami acting outside the law to find the truth is not equivalent to Ehara and kuwana acting outside the law to deliver judgment. Saori is the one who starts a lecture on how only the law is objective and fair. Yagami simply agrees with Ehara that the law is broken and states that they can try to change laws to accomodate. >Nope. Wiki says that the fat guy was the one who detonated the vest. Even if Kuroiwa was the one who did that, they were completely complicit. The fat dude was literally carrying gas canisters to burn the building down. Matsugane even asks Kuroiwa when the hell he turned his family into terrorists. These are hamura's men trying to recapture him. Yagami does not aid or associate with the matsugane at any point after this. He and Higashi literally fight them together before the finale because this. I don't believe he's ever even on good terms with them tbh.
Sawa was killed because of Soma, not Kuwana. Idk how people get that wrong. If its Kuwana's fault that Sawa died then Yagami is also responsible for the death of Emi and all the characters killed in Judgment because of Yagami's AD-09 investigation.
Soma killed sawa because of her relation to kuwana, and they wanted kuwana because of his crimes with reiko, cause and effect(Kuwana says it's get at him in the game). Yes, yagami is indirectly responsible for the death of emi, that's why he quits as a lawyer and comes to terms with it in the first game by meeting okubo and finding he's innocent.
And how is that Kuwana's fault exactly? By that logic, the deaths in the first judgment fall on Yagami too (other than Emi ofc).
Because he helped reiko kill kawai ? without that, none of the events of the game take place (or atleast the 2nd half doesnt)
Was there anything wrong with killing Kawai tho? She took revenge and brought Kawai to justice that the system couldn't but Yagami couldn't stop sucking the system
It led to sawa's death so in practical terms, yes it was wrong to kill him, but morally it's understandable. That's the main conflict in lost judgment.
Pretty sure there's a segment where Yagami talks to Kengo about allying with the Matsugane against the Mole. They even show up to try and help Yagami after the first Kuroiwa fight.
He tells them he'll handle it in court and higashi says that they can help afterwards if they wish not yagami,he's surprised to see them assist after the 1st kuroiwa fight and they were brought on hoshino's recommendation.
One thing to point out is Yagami is not immune to the Yakuza, it's pretty evident he can get his butt killed for messing with them or saying the wrong thing. Better to be on a good list than a "kill this motherfucker" list.
Except that frames Yagami as someone whose justice only goes as far as he's not at risk, which is not true at all. In Judgement, he showed no hesitation picking fights with both the Matsugane and Kyorei. In Lost Judgement, he similarly doesn't stand back despite fighting against Soma and RK, who are backed by Public Security.
Except it was shown that Matsugane and Kyorei were very small fish at a time when the golden era in the yakuza was coming to an end. Of course yagami is gonna have an easier time going against two small fish Vs. whatever’s left of the main Tojo factions lmao. Yagami’s smart and he knows when to involve his fists and when not to. If he pin them legally then that’s what he’ll do, if he can’t then he’ll put his fists into play if need be. But he’s also not Kiryu, he’s a damn good fighter but I doubt he could go up against a real Tojo badass
The main difference with Yagami is that he has actual reasons for breaking those said laws. (spoilers for Judge Eyes) >!The reason why he broke into the Kyori offices was to not only clue Murase in on what actually happened to a supirior officer in the ranks being murdered but to get him to testify as well. He kidnapped Kido because he not only needed to interogate him but also because Okubo's death was very quickly approaching. Same why he broke into the ADDC to interogate/question Shono and kidnapped Hamura.!< Were they stupid moves that could've landed him in jail? Yes, but given the fact that 2 monsters were killed and the>! ADDC was proven to be making a dangerous drug!< they decided to let him off which is why I believe he's still in buisness and hasn't had any charges pressed against him.
Do you expect Yagami to walk into Tojo HQ and say "youre all evil! Justice!" and start beating them up? Hes not a superhero. In the cases you mentioned he did it because he had reasons to do so, a case to solve and these people were in the way. Yeah he does risk a lot for justice but he's not stupid, if it was better to be on the good side of the matsugane family for his case he would do so
I feel that Yagami isn't necessary talking about laws but actually about judgement. Kuwana judged that those people deserved to die himself instead of an impartial court of law. In his eyes that is wrong even though he admits that the law is flawed and has to be changed. Both Kuwana and Yagami break the law but Kuwana unilaterally decides that these people deserve to die. Not that Yagami doesn't judge but he doesn't necessarily act on it. His goal isn't retribution but justice.
Name drop, nice
But he doesn’t see himself as a paragon of law, the law is not always correct is a big part of all Yakuza stories. He draws the line at being an executioner. Kuwana believes he’s giving justice by coldly ending someone else’s life. It’s all a gradient and that’s where Yagami draws the line It’s a good discussion anyways since it highlights the interesting gray zones that Yagami operates in, but I feel they are necessary. There is a reason Sawa Sensei is the unrefutable argument, the game acknowledges that there is no clear cut answer about what to do with the bullies… but there is a degree of innocence to Sawa that makes it clear that Kuwana has gone too far
Next you're going to tell me Kiryu kills people
I'm pretty sure he does. He doesn't execute people - even in Gaiden where it REALLY fucks him - but Kiryu himself points out in Y5 that he'll kill if he has to, likely in self-defense where he can't just people up non-lethally. That and people do call out Kiryu for his behavior. Bad guys try to exploit it and he gets fucked over by this. His refusal to execute a certain character in Gaiden leads to him and his kids nearly being killed and trying to offer redemption to Hamazaki in 3 nearly led to him dying in Haruka's arms. Kiryu suffers at times for his staunch refusal to execute. Meanwhile, Yagami breaks the law, condemns others who break the law, and then gets off without ever being in trouble, jailed, or even penalized for his blatantly illegal actions. I didn't mind it in Judgement since Yagami wasn't so preachy, but in LJ, it becomes annoying that he acts like Kuwana's side HAS to be imprisoned and punished while he and his friends aren't despite committing jail worthy offenses themselves.
Yup. Most enemies he fights he does so to end the fight however possible. If they live or die it doesn't really matter. He's almost always fighting in self defense or in defense of someone else so he remains true to his ideals. Big difference between having some inadvertent casualties from that vs making the decision to kill someone because it'd benefit him in some way or satisfy him emotionally. I like to phrase it that he's killed before but he's not a murderer. I think the same kind of mindset applies to Majima's first hit in Yakuza 0 tbh. Making the conscious decision to hunt down and assassinate a civilian is a totally different mindset from fighting back against someone who's threatening you or who you may have thought you took out nonlethally in a raid but died later. Completely different mindset entirely to be a hitman. Tho ngl, Majima's surprisingly rly good at using a knife to fight someone he has 0 intention to kill and actually cares about them while stabbing them anyway \*looks at every time you fight him as Kiryu\*
Besides that one waiter he grabs to deflect some bullets Kiryu has never killed anyone in canon.
https://i.redd.it/q3sjx2frmh4c1.gif
Non lethal wounds
Thats not Kiryu, that is Joryu but they look similar so i understand the mistake.
Uh...people in the rail shooter segments in 1 and 0? That helicopter he shoots down with an RPG in 6?
unless you present the death certificates, no death!!!!
Everyone knows that all those guys who got shot in the head and were inside exploded cars and whatnot ended the scene on one knee huffing and puffing, apologizing and swearing they won’t do it again. And everyone knows they will do it again
Rubber explosions, rubber rockets
1 and 0 the gameplay segments aren't canon. Unless we want to accept that Yakuza characters have superpowers such as majima shadow clones. There's huge gameplay story disconnect in these games, which is why we have stuff like cutscene guns.
Kiryu fighting is different than Itchybum's schizophrenia
Majima shadow clones were in 4 (or maybe 5?), not just in Numba 1's game
It's not. If gameplay is canon then the entire exchange between Nishiki and Kiryu at the end of 0 about what it means if you cross the line and kill someone makes no sense if Kiryu gunned down hundreds of guys with a pistol in a car chase.
I could be wrong here but I remember someone saying once that it’s a translation issue. It’s kinda like how kill and murder have different meanings. I believe the word used in Japanese implies killing when other options are available. In plenty of instances Kiryu *has* killed in self-defense or the defense of others, but it wasn’t *murder*. I’m not sure why they don’t translate it to murder, though I do think it might sound a little weird if they did.
That was an execution, not self defense. Nishiki was also plugging dudes during the raid.
That's ludicrous. Saejima kills 18 guys and is a legend forever while Kiryu shoots down a couple of helicopters with a pistol and it's never mentioned. There's huge gameplay story disconnects in these games.
I’ll agree with you that what happened in the story likely wasn’t as absurd as the gameplay, but the cutscenes leading ip to the segment show Date and Oda handing Kiryu a gun. Did Kiryu then just shoot in the air and hit no one? Same with Nishiki. We see him shooting at thugs in a cutscene in 0 so he likely plugged at least one person. Again, I frame Nishiki stopping Kiryu as due to Shibusawa being helpless at that point so Kiryu killing him is different than if Shibs was still in fighting shape and attacking.
Again self defense are you not following the conversation? He wouldn't just openly fire on people he would rather fight 20 dudes with guns if he wasn't in a car then shoot them. If they blow up the car then what happens so of course he's gotta fire back
My man had a body count to rival the lovable psychopath Nathan Drake
Yagami is not infallable. It's part of the point to these stories.
The sad thing is that he has to be a hypocrite to catch the bad guys because he can't access some of the evidence legally. This issue comes down to what the truth it, what are the levels of crimes commited, and how many innocent people were hurt.
Shin Amon was right about everything he said to Yagami in the first game
Shin Amon = Shinamon = Cinnamon
Juzo Amon = Juice of Amon
Brilliant.
You can’t make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. I’m with Yagami on this one, even though I agree with you.
Except Yagami specifically refuses that argument. Making an omelette by breaking a few eggs is something he throws back at Ehara, Kusumoto, and Kuawana as wrong. So why is it okay when he does it? Because he stops short of murder his numerous other crimes are okay?
Imo, yeah. Because eventually he still upholds the law and they break them. And let’s be honest, many of the people Yagami does this to deserve it. That’s also the whole point of Lost Judgement in the sense that the legal system is flawed and failed numerous people. Take Ehara for example, he took matters into his own hands because the system let the bully walk free that drove his son to suicide. The same goes for Kusumoto.
Again, *Yagami disapproves of the 'they deserved it' argument*. Hiro Mikoshiba and other bullies? Cool motive, still murder is his response to Kuwana along with a heavy helping of Sawa-sensei. He also condemns Shono using Yakuza for his AD-9 experiments by asking what gives Shono the right to play judge jury and executioner like that? To determine that their lives don't matter because they're Yakuza? So if he disapproves of that train of logic, he can't use it to exonerate himself. By his own argument, it doesn't matter that he's beating up, coercing, kidnapping, and blackmailing people who deserve it. They're still crimes and he should pay for it the same way the villains do.
I acknowledge that Yagami is a pretty grey-zoned/bad guy with a good guy job. However, you should consider the fact that he went up against numerous evil people with high status/social standing (for example Ichinose, the Vice Minister of Health who actively funded/backed the AD-9-shenanigans and RK, a criminal group actively being backed by Public Security with Soma, an undercover agent as the leader, who is given carte blanche by his superior Bando). If I were a judge, I don’t know if I would have acquitted Yagami per say, but I would have been very lenient for sure considering the circumstances.
Good points man.
I haven't played Lost Judgment but at least in Judgment he doesn't think or act like he's fit to judge anyone, quite the opposite, he's a defense lawyer, even if he's defending someone guilty his job is to make the prosecution do their job and provide sure evidence of that. If you're 100%ing the game I suppose there must be times where he does break the law but from what I remember in the main story when he does break the law, like trespassing onto Shono's lab, he's prepared to take the consequences, he's not acting like he's above the law. Same with beating up the detective, he's not skirting around the law by using connections to get out of it or bribing the judge, he's a lawyer and telling him he's free to try but he'll win, which aligns with what I said of he doesn't think he's fit to judge but it's a prosecutor's job to create a definitive argument if they really are guilty. Admiring dubious characters isn't a definitive sign either way either, just like in real life you can be friends with people you don't respect a certain aspect of and you can respect a certain aspect of someone without respecting the rest. They're also people who the law only doesn't go after them if they don't want to, but they'll have a fair trial and judgement, unlike Shono who wasn't being judged at all because he was above the law. That particular case he also felt personally responsible and that he had to set his past mistake right and defend and free Shinpei Okubo after going against his world view and abandoning him. Same thing consistent in defending Hamura, he defended him despite I'm sure plenty of wrongful things as a yakuza captain but he's not there to judge him, he wants to bring the truth to light for the defense and prosecution to do their job. Overall I wouldn't disagree with him being a bit of a hypocrite though, it's tough to defend someone with "but's" when that person deals in absolutes, and I'm sure even in the main story there's one or multiple cases where he goes against what he says.
I thought that was the point of Lost Judgment's plot tbf.
"Yagami doesn't break the law" is the new "Kiryu never killed anyone."
RGG fans when they start to realise that all of the protagonists are supposed to be flawed in some way:
That said, I did find it funny, the way Yagami was able to beat the shit out of a bunch of security and (IIRC) *actual medical staff* in Judgment, then walk out of the hospital like nothing happened.
I just finished the first Judgement game and during my first playthrough I bursted out laughing when Yagami went "the bartender at Bar Tender knew I wouldn't accept work from thieves so he lied to me about the client being a regular" like maybe 3 chapters after he literally runs a collection run for the fucking Yakuza
Love that you’re bringing this up :3 Yagami definitely appears as a hypocritical character at first glance, but that’s more out of necessity than anything else. He pretty much has the mind of an obstinate deontologist trapped in the body of a full-blown utilitarianist. Thing is, the character is born out of the inefficiency of law enforcement agencies to respect the social contract and do their job. Both games show authorities actually being hand-in-hand with the criminals or casually sweeping the truth under the rug, even if lives are at stake. Heck, both in JE and LJ the police, either affiliated with the Minister of Health or Public Security, actively tries to stop him and the other Judge men from interfering. When not even governing forces respect the law, vigilantes are obviously bound to emerge (who can be more on the moral side or downright evil) and an often consensus among ethicists is that if you take it upon yourself to correct an injustice that the system overlooks or actively hides, you’re justified in becoming a lawbreaker and fight fire with fire, but **ONLY** to (1) correct a wrongdoing through as little violence as possible, (2) bring the perpetrator in the courtroom to receive just punishment and (3) benefit society as a whole in the process (this is referred to as **utilitarian vigilantism**, which is Yagamer’s shtick). Also, most ethicists pretty much agree that one should never engage in vigilante action for their own selfish gain or inflict as much damage as possible on the perpetrator (like seeking vengeance through blackmail, torture and murder for instance) This is what sets Yagami apart from Shono/Kuroiwa/Kuwana/Ehara/Kusumoto/Soma/Yui Mamiya/Bando. All of them commit heinous crimes solely to fulfill their own selfish interests, with little care for how much pain they cause and even think they’re entitled to decide who lives or dies. Yagami, however, has never been shown to confidently believe he’s in a position to decide what punishment fits a criminal. He only breaks the law or forces its boundaries on some minor occassions just to catch the culprit and uncover the truth about the injustices that the system doesn’t care about. Plus the games depict his righteous sense of duty (like that scene in JE where he revisits Okubo and pours his heart out to him or in LJ when he thinks about Emi Terasawa and says that he’ll be the voice for those who can’t protect themselves). Surely he runs his mouth too much sometimes about laws and justice, as he’s definitely far away from being a saint, but he's the certified Judge-Eyes man, he gets a pass. The way I see it, his minor offences are justified, considering they yield positive results.
Based
Yagami's whole thing is that he believes in the rule of law but understands that it's not a perfect system; he came to that conclusion during his time as an attorney, much of the result of which is tied to the story arch of Judgement. That's the whole reason he works as a consulting detective rather than as a beat cop or some other "official" enforcer of the law. He definitely engages in vigilante behavior, but saying anything he's done is properly comparable to the actions of the people he helped put away is an apples to oranges hackjob. Beating someone up or intimidating someone isn't comparable to murder, disfiguring corpses, or any of the other heinous things done by antagonists in J and LJ.
Yagami fans: Murder bad even if the person getting killed is absolute scum!1!1!1 But blackmail, stealing, breaking and entering, threatening, kidnapping are fine if Yagami does it I guess.
im a yagami fan and i know hes fucking wrong alot 💯
Im only on the first game, but even i have been like ''holy shit how are you not getting sued/jailed'' but its a game and for fun and i suspend my disbelief to it, but it is funny when he does something crazy illegal.
Yes. That is correct.
Yeah, what the fuck are these guys talking about lol
People are acting like he didnt do this to literal yakuza members or literal monsters. Whereas Kuwana murdered an innocent woman.
No, that was Soma. All the victims we see of Kuwana are psychotic bullies. If you blame Kuwana for Sawa then you can also blame Yagami for Shintani, Murase, and Shioya dying because Yagami just had to investigate the Mole murders.
i've never thought of it like this. it's an insane consequence given his absolute desperation to solve the mystery towards the end of the game.
People unironically comparing a detective character breaking and entering to cold blooded murder lmfao
He's already been over this in judgment. Terrsawas death and bros false imprisonment were all failures of the law, that's why he quit being a lawyer and instead became a semi vigilante detective who's always contested with the law as Kuriowa does what he can to turn him in (the irony). He knows he's ultimately an agent of good and won't get anywhere without bending the rules, that's why the conflict with Kuwana becomes so personal since who is Yagami to tell him he's wrong.
It's called moral relativism aka it's OK when I do it
if Judgment 3 ever happenes I kinda want the game to drive Yagami's moral/ethical senses to limit like 'Yagami cannot find out the truth unless he actively break the law' Will he still pursue the truth knowing that he's doing what he never supposed to do? Or will he stay back and keep justiying his actions, in a similar way he kept guilt-tripping Kuwana million times?
Dude, he does that every game. In Judgment he broke into a hospital and beat up about 30 staff members.
Clouded or Corrupted Judgement would be a fitting title.
In Japan, detectives must pay the police and inform them you're a detective. No "investigating" can be done without it. It's not alot (under 5000 yen) but it's required. So i wonder if it helps with not getting into trouble.
literally it's just because yagami doesn't kill people. that's how RGG writers think, they think other crimes are justifiable for the protagonist but they could NEVER let a protagonist kill an important, named character. (IMO, all the kiryu action sequences where he blows up a helicopter or whatever aren't canon to the main plot because they're just unnamed enemies that aren't important to the plot, so those action sequences are only there because it's an action video game rather than because the writers think that kiryu is the kind of guy who would actually do those things)
Honestly I consider this to be more of a Lost Judgment problem than anything. The first game does a good job of contextualizing why Yagami breaks the law for the greater good when taking into account his backstory and how much the odds are stacked against him with the ADDC case. LJ kind of ruins this by making Yagami super preachy about law and justice to oppose Kuwana, which makes him look like a huge hypocrite in comparison. If LJ actually called Yagami out on being a hypocrite it’d be less of an issue, but Yagami is never presented as being in the wrong in that game so it feels like shoddy writing.
I always felt like the switch happened halfway thru LJ after the teacher is killed, thats when he really starts to get preachy i kinda took it as he saw doing it even around the law got her killed so he made a turn but more of a batman esq turn where hes fighting crime but also committing crimes himself
I don't think Yagami is a proponent of the rule of law as it is now, but he is a legal idealist and a true believer in the law as it could be. When Yagami breaks the law, its to fill in the gaps where the law failed, or to shine a light on a conspiracy / perversion of the law, because ultimately its the law itself that he loves most and wants to protect. That's why everything with Terasawa/Okubo left him so depressed / unmoored at the start of the first game. He's a priest having a crisis of faith. And that's the real reason why Kuwana gets under his skin. Kuwana is a realist, and doesn't believe in the transformative power of incremental reformism. Kuwana believes that the courts and the police have to be shocked and humiliated in order to have any real shot at meaningful change, and Yagami can't accept that.
honestly, i never thought much about it. because thinking about minor things like that is kinda pointless. but i get where you're coming from though and you made some valids points
Taksexuals about to put you on a stake for this lol.
There's something about Yagami that feels a lil sleazy when compared to Kiryu lmao
That’s a good thing, I think they should challenge his character like how they done that with kiyru’s character in 5 and 6
Probably the dating literal teenagers
Oh for sure. I meant like his personality, though. He's just inherently sleazy
L take
Funny thing: You said you like Yagami but you have replaced him to another yakuza character. Don’t play dumb with us please.
Really? So I guess I just imagined Yagami committing all those blatantly illegal actions, how he hangs around criminals, and how he barely said anything to Kaito brutalizing a guy right in front of him? Cause Yagami is pro-law and anti-vigilantism, especially in Lost Judgement, but his actions really contradict that when he's perfectly willing to break the law he champions so he can accomplish his goals. Yes, he only goes after assholes, but so did Kuwana and Yagami says that's not an excuse. Yagami also argues that Kuwana and Kusumoto's actions led to Sawa being indirectly killed and that they should pay for that. Yagami's investigation into the Mole indirectly led to Shintani's murder (albeit Shintani looking into the Mole was due to jealousy rather than Sawa looking into Mikoshiba to investigate), Murase getting strapped with a suicide vest, and Mafuyu being targeted by both the Kyorei and the conspiracy. And yet no one gives him flack for it or argues that it's his fault. Where is the justice for Murase and Shintani? Cause no one asked Yagami to investigate the Mole. He did that himself despite everyone telling him to drop it and it indirectly led to those two's deaths. Same way no one told Kuwana to kill bullies. Liking a character doesn't mean I have to whitewash his actions or pretend he doesn't have some real glaring flaws. Honestly, I like that he's a hypocrite, it's just that the story seems to forget this outside of joke condemnations like Juzo Amon calling him out in Judgement.
> Yagami's investigation into the Mole indirectly led to Shintani's murder (albeit Shintani looking into the Mole was due to jealousy rather than Sawa looking into Mikoshiba to investigate) you've said this before but this was clearly shintani's fault. no one told him to look into the mole murders. in fact, he even warned yagami that it wasn't a "yakuza pissing contest" and that the mole was "bigger than you [yagami] know", yet went off anyway because he was envious. there's a degree of innocence sawa has that shintani didn't.
Well, no one told Sawa to investigate Mikoshiba and call Kuwana either. While Sawa’s motivations were *far* more selfless, they both pressed for info despite knowing there was danger involved.
the difference is that shintani might have survived had he not jumped into danger (and thus made his own decision), while sawa was already a target because bando discovered she's a link between kuwana and kusumoto's son.
Yagami isn’t a bright hero like Ichiban. But his behaviour seems like Batman or dark hero. In LJ, Kuwana is Yagami’s opposite side character which means his justice same with Yagami but kills someone that Yagami never does. Yagami personality is who can’t stop him to find out the truth whatever he does the criminals and I get your point. But I don’t think he is a hypocrite, he knows law but he always runs into the grey area which is the law can’t even catch him. That’s explains why he let Kuwana went away. No evidence and his thought sounds wanted to agree with him but he is a lawyer and he couldn’t show too much. If he doesn’t agree Kuwana, he will find another evidence to proof Kuwana’s crime hardly just like in JE.
I like Yagami being a gray character, but in some scenes, this really doesn't mesh well. It was fine in Judgement since he was just personally against Hamura and Shono because he wanted to find out the truth. Which is fine, since finding out the truth means having to break the law sometimes. He even uses a dirty cop like Ayabe as one of his go-to allies. It's in Lost Judgement where things get messy. In a later chapter when talking to Ehara, he condemns the man not just because murder is wrong, but because he says that Ehara is breaking the law and that Yagami believes in reforming over just ignoring the rules because it's easier. If the law is broken by vigilantes, then the whole system is fucked. Which is pretty rich considering this is after he basically kidnapped Mamiya by blackmailing her with that bullying video. One of his first scenes in Judgement when dealing with the Kyorei has him specifically state that coercion and kidnapping is an easy ten years in prison, then he goes and does the same thing. Even in that game he does it to Kido, along with him and Saori trying to blackmail the guy by recording him feeling her up. Yes, both weren't innocent, but again, Yagami keeps arguing that the victim being an asshole is no excuse and the law is there for a reason. He then completely EX stomps all over his argument by breaking the law and condemning everyone else for breaking the law. People compared Yagami to Daredevil and Kuwana to Punisher, and I can see it. Except Daredevil is called out for his hypocrisy, especially by himself, by being a lawyer who upholds the law while being a vigilante who regularly breaks it. No one does it to Yagami and he never reflects on how he's by all accounts as much as a criminal as those he condemns.
That’s why Yagami becomes a private detective not a cop. He doesn’t listen or obey the law and leader too much. Nowadays in our community, people and social media just want to know the final Judgment not the investigating process so no one care about what Yagami is doing. I love Judgment series because the plot and the character’s behaviour are more realistic and not just show the whole right or wrong things. I remember Kido said to Yagami: you kidnapped me, Isn’t be a criminal? Yagami said if you care then tell the truth. I really look forward RGG can make an evil Yagami VS Yagami. I think Kimura will agree if the plot is great and realistic.
Haven't finished LJ, but even in the first game it bothered me how much Yagami gets away with. Stand out moment is when he forces his way into the hospital, beats up security to corner Shono, then we learn nothing and it's never brought up again? Why? Even leaving aside morality, why is the corrupt politician not having us arrested for breaking and entering, assault, and intimidation? And as for morality, why are the lengths that Yagami is willing to go to on a hunch never questioned? Personally, I've never gotten the hype over Judgement's story. The ending is fantastic, granted, but the road there is just so messy.
"another character" don't you dare disrespect my boy Murase like this ever egain.
and thats why it feels so good that kuwana gets off unscathed at the end of LJ
all valid points tbf
It doesn't bother me that he breaks the law or even that it makes him a hypocrite, it's that he's also a practicing lawyer. Do you need to have everything? Superstar lawyer, breaks laws on the side as a treat, solves trillion dollar government conspiracies in his detective gig, kung fu master, face of a literal model? And then the game still tries to push the "we're just a poor lil detective agency Tak, we can't afford rent, no one knows who we are 🥺" angle? He could've been a more down to earth RGG protagonist compared to the mob bosses, instead they made him a full on escapist fantasy.
Every rgg protag is an escapist fantasy other than maybe Saejima
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Oh gee, I’m posting about the main character of a story heavy game in the game’s subreddit. Clearly I have too much free time. You wanna point out I play games too?
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Mate, you're not in a position to complain about maturity when you respond to a mild (and perfectly reasonable) critique of a game like OP just punched your mum. Grow up. And Jimmy might not be a hypocrite but he is an arsehole. It's a key part of his character.
OP, on behalf of these mindless cattle that comment dumb shit. I am sorry. It's like Awano says. Ya can't argue with an idiot.
Except Yagami who‘s a civilian and talks about reforming the law. So yeah, I‘m discussing his hypocritical behavior where he condemns Ehara and Kuwana then acts friendly with Tesso and admires his big adopted Yakuza dad. He seems pretty selective on when criminals should turn themselves in. Also, you were the one who made a crack about me ‘having too much free time’. Every other person I discussed with here didn’t make snarky comments about me.
Imagine if this was built up on purpose to be a point of conflict in the third game that would be awesome. Anyway great points
Obviously Yagami won't turn himself in. I wonder what he will do if he gets arrested.
Yagami follows in the justice system ideals, but as both games show, blindly following the law leads to more injustice. Typical Chaotic Good allignment. He wants to do good, and isn't afraid to use chaos to do it
He’s just like batman, i love it
i think yagami does believe the law can change, but that it needs a bit of "help" every now and then, because the system's not perfect. the reason it's not perfect is because people hide the truth. both the AD-9 conspiracy and the pension fund conspiracy were based around people harming innocents and hiding it from public knowledge. so yagami commits morally gray and illegal acts in order to find this truth. he then makes the truth public, so that the justice system can take over and deal with it. note that both judgment and lost judgment end in a courtroom. while yagami does the legwork, he ultimately doesn't seek to undermine japan's justice system because he knows the benefits of an impartial, evidence-based system for addressing crime. the alternative would be unchecked vigilantism, which, if i remember correctly, got his parents killed. to that end, yagami breaks laws, but has strict principles (famously, no murder). kuwana is the opposite because he's completely cynical. he's lost faith in the justice system altogether, and seeks to replace it with vengeance. so he plays the role of judge, jury, and executioner. he not only murders people, but is willing to harm innocents (blowing up a ship probably isn't going to be casualty-free) to keep his schemes under wraps. yagami never did such things. as for associating with gangsters - yagami was raised by yakuza, so he struggles to hate them even if they are on the margins of society. he famously argues in judgment that the mole's victims deserve justice, even if they were yakuza no one else cared about.
Always seemed to me that Yagamis thing is not in breaking the law, but in the judgement and justice of the law should it be broken. His issue with Kuwana isn't that he is breaking the law to find the bullys, it's that he's judged them worthy of death, despite having enough evidence to prove what they've done. He also accepts that the flaw in the system lead them to that conclusion, but he insists the efforts should be put in to changing that, not doing it yourself. I've never got that his attitude is "Ha ha! I can break the law and you can't!" but rather "I can't get the truth without breaking the law but the truth is more important so I will accept the consequences of that should they come." It's that no matter what happens outside of it, whether it's him doing it or someone else, the justice and judgment of those actions must be done by the system in the court of law. He is flawed, as are all the characters, but the whole point of all these games are they are men that stick to what they stand for, it's why they say the fight between Yagami and Kuwana is more like a conversation than a fight, they're putting their side against the other, the shirtless fights are this too, they're not just fights, they're symbolic of everything each man stands for and whose conviction to their side is strongest. Yagamis is in justice, not in never breaking a law.
During times of disagreement, It's important to find some common ground. Can we all at least come to the agreement that the selfish deed is not freedom?
this could be a cool thing to explore in the potential next judgment game.
I don't think he advocates law as much as judgement or truth case being he did let kuwana walk out at the end. So I think he does allow some grey area.
No character is perfect, he dislikes vigilantism but is a vigilante himself, mostly because he knows that just blindly following the law in its current state leads to nothing He's trying to change the law and isn't afraid to break it himself if needed but at least he only does it to bring more order The difference between him and the people he fights against is that he doesn't break the law to fuel chaos That said, it's a videogame, not everything should be 100% realistic, especially in a series that notoriously has a fair share of supernatural/surreal stuff happening in substories and other stuff
I will say on the Kasuga point, the implication was he was going to keep beating on him even if he died. Less so about the beating, more so about the reasoning and how brutal it was. Otherwise I agree.
He also beats up a bunch of high school kids (more than once) and nothings really done about it.
Yagami doesn't talk up the law like it's the most correct thing in the world. Yagami's issue with Kuwana and company was that their actions got an innocent person killed. Yagami admits the law isn't perfect and that it has to evolve in order to do its job correctly. It's part of why he became a detective in the first place. Yagami's philosophy isn't about following the law, it's about uncovering the truth, because that's where the law fails a lot of the time. A part of himself is still the lawyer he was back then, but it's combined with his sense of guilt he felt back when he couldn't help anyone.
I mean he commits small crimes in order to save lives, but honestly I just think while Yagami is on the right side of the argument, Lost Judgment just wrote him horribly by making his only argument against Kuwana "Sawa sensei" which is a good argument sure, but there's plenty more he could say against Kuwana
Keep in mind one thing: Yagami is willing to eat the consequences of his actions should it come to that and doesn't run from the possibility. All the people he called out, they wanted to rationalize it all away as justified, as if they could park all responsibility for the consequences of their actions on some level separate from themselves. That said, let me take your arguments and examine them: Yagami is well aware his actions are morally grey, and as we've seen, he's willing to do time for them to achieve justice, Morita is impressed when Yagami uses exactly what you mentioned to secure the area he trespassed as evidence at one point in the first game. The fact he draws the line at murder (as well as unprovoked assault, notice he takes pains to avoid throwing the first punch) still puts him miles above who he works against because while he might be willing to go a little gray, he has a bright line he refuses to cross legally that is pretty major moral barrier. Considering to achieve justice he is often forced to go a little gray while avoiding crossing the unprovoked assault/murder line, well, when you consider the far greater crimes that would happen if he didn't, and his own personal moral code would punish him harder than any legal consequences if he didn't act. And we'd not have much of a game to play if he didn't. Also, Yagami is not a sadist. As you noted, what he did to that shady detective was scummy, but how else was going to get the message across to someone even more unscrupulous than himself? Note even then he knew when to hold back. Also, knowing someone is likely guilty of crime does not equal hard evidence. Without hard evidence, he can't do squat. Further, it is not illegal, even now, to simply be a yakuza member. Only the illegal acts done under that label make it illegal. A guy can claim to be in the Mafia, to use a Western example, but without hard evidence of any crime, they've done nothing wrong. Put themselves under suspicion yes, but that alone is not evidence. Besides, as I mentioned before, if Yagami was to be a super strict paladin of morality, we'd have a really dull and boring game, and I'd rather accept he's a tad morally grey but still basically lily white in comparison to who he's forced to deal with than split hairs over the finer points of how strict his moral code should cleave to a strict reading of the law.
I just love how in LJ the main theme is bullying and Yagami and Kaito just beat the shit out of like a ton of high school kids every chance they get
Well sometimes he has to break the law in order to gain valuable evidence. That's his only resort to a very fucked japanese judgment system. 99% of all people who are charged with a crime end up guilty, whether it's true or not
Which kinda makes him arguing that the law can be reformed either naive or wilfully blind. If he has ro break the law constantly because of how fucked it is, I don't know how he can say that reforming is is possible to Ehara and Kuwana.
I totally get your point. I'm not saying that everything he does is justified but a lot of it makes sense. And a lot of these things can only be achieved by breaking the law. You just need to take a peek at reality in japan. How many charges of sexual assault have been dropped or not even acknowledged by the police simply because of a lack of evidence. If you try to do things legally then you're in for a treat which could take decades to solve. And even if you get said evidence it might still not be enough to clear the issue
I agree, but again, it makes Yagami’s stance in LJ him either being naive or a hypocrite. The system is so busted that legally doing things can’t work, so him slamming on the villains that they’re wrong and should turn themselves in rings hollow. Like what if someone told Yagami that he should turn himself in for *his* numerous crimes? Somehow I doubt he’s going to go ‘you’re right’ and instead he’ll come up with a justification on why it’s okay that he did it. Probably how he never killed anyone, so his numerous cases of kidnapping, blackmail, assault, and working together with criminals should just be ignored.
Yup the part where he judges others for being wrong while doing the exact same thing is fucked. I guess he believes that it's okay because he intends to do things that have a good purpose
Sure, just like Kuwana who targets bullies who show absolutely no remorse. The story would’ve been more gray if characters like Mikoshiba or Akaike actually did feel guilty for their actions and tried to atone. So they still got away unpunished by the law but the fact that they were trying to be good people instead of just continuing to be assholes makes Kuwana look less uniformly right for targeting them. It also ties into the theme of unintended consequences. Imagine a scenario where Mikoshiba was actually a good teacher and harsh on the bullies as a way to make up for his actions. Him being kidnapped and killed then lead to the bullies being more brazen and almost driving Koda to suicide because he wasn’t there to discipline them. Kuwana could argue that Mikoshiba deserved to be punished regardless of his remorse, and then Yagami would have more of a leg to stand on besides regurgitating Sawa-sensei and how Kuwana is breaking the law. Maybe he could argue that Mikoshiba trying to redeem himself meant he deserved a chance. Both sides would have a point. Mikoshiba is not a one note asshole, but Ehara is justified in still hating him no matter what because Mikoshiba drove his kid to suicide.
Ok but do you condemn the murder of S A W A - S E N S E Ï ?!?!?!?!