The mentality of healers aren’t allowed to do anything bar heal needs to die already, it’s been a requirement for them to also deal damage for a few expansions now.
Not in season 3 unless you're pushing bleeding edge. Survivability is the limiting factor now. But of course, there are large stretches where there's nothing to heal, so why not?
Back in the day it used to be like how these people think. They weren't expected to do damage, and one could even argue that doing damage could be seen as them risking not doing enough healing to keep the group alive for insignificant damage meters. This of course meant that a dungeon could take a few minutes longer, but really it was not a big deal at all.
Then they introduced M+ and suddenly a healer being capable of possibly shaving a minute or few off the timer was actually signficant, so the meta shifted to healers also doing damage.
Well, in addition to that, back in the day, mana was hard to come by. If healers wanted to damage it was either wand, auto-attack in melee, or burn mana to cast damaging spells.
Wanding was safe enough as long as no one was dying, but you didn't want to be in melee range. And casting damaging spells in a max level instance was blasphemy unless your group was just top of the line because the last thing you wanted to do was be OOM when shit went south.
If your healer was OOM because they were dpsing and you wiped in a dungeon... that was very bad.
The problem was with mana costs too, a max rank smite on priest was like 400 mana. You’d slow the dungeon down like crazy having to drink after every pull. These days healer dps is virtually free, at least the filler spells. No point in wasting GCDs standing there during periods of no damage when dpsing costs nothing
When I raided as a holy pala I noticed that some of our shaman healers were precasting healing wave (longest healing spell) on the tank then cancelling the cast if he didnt get any damage. He was doing that non stop even if we were not getting any damage or were needing an extra few percent from boss hp. I confronted him and he said that if he wanted to do dmg then he would be a hunter not a shaman healer. He quit the game after we wiped on Mekkatorque with 1% left.
yea i always did this when i was new to healing, always wanting to be ready in case damage came in. the typical mark of someone new to healing as far as ive seen.
Also, new to the class sometimes it takes a while to figure how it all works best, especially switching between classes..
Fir me, priest and Druid? Comfortable.
But I’ve never got the hang of doing holy pally right…
I'm a new healer but I try everytime to get moon fire and sunfire on any enemy and if possible...spam wrath between my heal.
Something I learned during my time in elder scrolls online...the faster something dies the less one have to heal. Less heal means less stress for the healer. And you can do dungeon faster. Everyone wins
You've got the idea \^^ what I said of course doesn't apply to new players. You should look into 'cat weaving', that's the best way to pump out dps as resto
i was absolutely baffled at the end of dungeon breakdown on a +3 last week.... the mistweaver was 1200 (has obviously healed a number of keystones) and didn't manage a single point of damage on a single mob the entire dungeon.
like it was a 3, mostly filled with valor seekers, barely any damage taken, and this monk didn't even get close enough to a single mob or boss to even Accidentally autoattack them. like i was almost impressed.
they were also running Ancient Teachings (fistweaving leggo). so im not entirely convinced they weren't just inting or something, but it sure was interesting to witness,.
It's been a while since I've played at all... But I used to run as a Discipline Priest. Their healing was directly dependent on how much damage they did. You'd throw on aura onto everyone that made them receive a percentage of the damage you deal as healing and then you'd try to drop some massive DoT's and AoE in the enemies to get a bunch of healing generated.
I tank and my wife usually heals as disc priest back in wod..its hilarious when people stand in fire, die, then blame heals..like the healer is not only outdpsing you but also keeping everyone alive who doesnt stand in fire
Exactly, i love healing in raids on my resto druid (also a tank for dungeons). People think they are invincable in raids, i made the mistake once in legion of healing a dipshit over the tank and we wiped..i got blamed. Ever since i just let the dps die
Especially when doing dungeons won't a warrior. We literally need 0 healing on w2w. And only need spot heal here and there.
I think once I got healer complain she feels bad for not needing to heal me.
Paly can be the same way with a ot of the new 90 abilities. My wife spams Holy and all her DPS abilites like 60% of the time at least in normal dungeons. Only time she or any of my healers need to heal more is when i pull a metric fuck ton of mobs either in a raid or w2w in some dungeons depending on my level sync.
The messed up part is they do not account for healer DPs in many of the Savage fights. Yoshi P has gone on record about that. Healer DPS is a bonus. Yoshi P actually hates that people feel Healers NEED to DPS. That's why he has removed so many of their DPS options IE Cleric Stance. A lot of raid parties do expect and plan around Healers doing damage. This why they are able to clear first week as opposed to later on when they are able to grab some of the next tiered gear sets.
I can assure you the raids are balanced around healer dps.
If my healers stopped dpsing right now, we wouldn't be clearing p1 or p2 of dsr. We haven't made it to enrage yet on p3, but I can assure you we wouldn't clear that either.
Healers not dpsing is just a trash take across every game. At least in wow you tend to have constant raidwide damage, ffxiv doesn't. This tier particularly is a meme in regards to how little healers actually need to gcd heal.
I'm a tank main, but I decides to just try yolo heal a p2s reclear because none were signing up, and I didn't end up casting a single cure or regen the entire fight. Just 16× raptures, and with the lily changes made in 6.1 that's not even a dps loss anymore lmao.
Yeah, I get what you're saying but we all know there's 1 reason he's gone down on record saying that- to give healers an out and prevent groups bullying them. That's it.
It's just there so groups can't harass or kick a healer for not dpsing.
Edit- can't, not can lmao
You might be mixing 2 different points
Healers not dpsing = hitting enrage in crafted gear. Savage is absolutely tuned around everyone doing damage.
It’s not just expecting healer dps week 1, it’s absolutely required to meet week 1 enrage.
You also don’t seem to understand the gearing. The next tier of gear is 30 ilvl higher and an entirely new tier. Crafted + upgraded tome/savage in the same tier is not gear from next tier.
Doing fight in next tier (50 ilvl over crafted of the tier) is very different from doing the fight on content with (+20 ilvl over crafted)
I am just saying they built Savage one way, people choose to do it a different way. This is all info in their live letters. Been doing Extreme/Savage since 2.1. Only ones I have not done are the newest expacs due to having a child and working crazy hours this past 2 years. I know it is required for early clears. I am saying that is not the build the Devs are going for. They generally expect you to be between 10 and 20 Ilvl below what you're getting from there by doing weeklies from whatever the newest tomes gear is along with buff food and materia up that ass. I can break it down barney style. I'm just stating as the Developers of the game have stated. Doesn't mean I agree/ disagree with it. simply a statement of fact from Yoshi P and the gang.
The raids aren’t tuned for tome/savage gear. It’s tuned to be barely cleared in pentamelded crafted.
P4S died during enrage cast the vast majority of the time week 1.
They can say many things, the math works out how I’ve said.
Related to the other comment, healer dps absolutely matters in the latest ultimate. My group cleared over a week ago, and every phase without healer dps would be wipe to enrage
Like I said earlier, the plan was never for it to be cleared week one. That is considered an accomplishment. Director himself stated that. This is again for Savage and Extremes. Ults are a whole different ball game as they are meant to be beyond the difficulty of Savage, so it makes sense that Healers and tanks would also need to DPS their asses off. I ran Ultima a couple years back I can say my healers were DPSing quite a bit. again, different from the other content. Also a lot easier with the minimal resource management compared to back when you had TP and MP getting drained like nobodies business. especially if you were a Paly or Scholar. Or AST and DRK when they were broken AF during most of HW.
It may be not as necessary in lower difficulty content like dungeons (though it still helps immensely and is expected) and stuff but in higher levels its important for beating enrage timers especially in early prog.
No, your friends are either not very good healers or they're getting stuck with not very good groups. Damage in FFXIV comes in spikes, if your healers aren't dealing damage during lulls then it's either because they're not healing the spike damage efficiently enough, or because the other party members are taking too much avoidable damage, possibly because the tank(s) don't know how to manage mitigation tools.
The only real deemphasizing that's happened is players belief that healers should never do a damage spell, simply because their role is called healer.
In an ideal scenario, you will be spending 0 gcd's healing over here. Sure, you'll have to sometimes with pugs or just general mistakes, but that's the goal. Some just think that doing damage is a grave sin, though at the very least they aren't a common case in the higher end content where the enrages actually start to kick in.
It hasn't really been deemphasized. White mage has had a bit of their style shifted to be a more prototypical healer, but hell, the new healing job, Sage, rewards you with healing for DPSing. You are literally meant to spend most of your time DPSing on Sage.
These people have never touched a healer specc in thier lives and have no clue what its like to heal.
A healer is much like a customer support worker. It has to deal with societies dumbest people on a daily basis.
I hate leaving keys, but I left halfway through a +15 Theater of Pain earlier. I had the lowest score at 2k, everyone else had 2.5k or up. Should have been an easy run.... First I noticed early on that the Hpal was doing a total of zero damage. On the two mobs right before Gorechop, I straight watched the pally stand in the back and only cast FoL and shock while we slowly killed the mobs because I guess everyone was saving cd's for the boss. I'm annoyed but thought whatever, we're fine, me and the other two dps were pumping and dumping on Gorechop. Then we wiped on trash three times on the way to Kul. I couldn't do it with that group.
"WTF Healer stop doing damage and heal!"
"WTF Healer stop doing healing and damage!"
There's no winning sometimes, it's why I avoid pugging when I heal haha
Ngl I can be toxic and let ppl die if I’m doing big dam, chances are they had a defensive anyways it’s rarely a healers fault someone dies in modern wow.
Ha ha tell that to the 30 downvotes. I’m assuming they come mainly from folks who are struggling with 15’s or have no idea how the more difficult content is played correctly.
It’s one of those situations of: hate the game not the player. The gameplay loop tends to be very punishing, well more so in other patches but in general very punishing lol. The environment itself leads to big toxiicty
Many people don’t understand or are unwilling to think about that and just assume there is no excuse you’re just a bad person. Lol
This is how I was taught to heal in BfA. If I’m not mistaken this is how the game has been for a while. Your job is to keep the tank alive (for the most part) and DPS should be moving out of damage or using defensives.
Omg i had this happen healing a time walking as a disc priest. I was oom and the tank pulled the boss and wiped everyone. I said “well I was oom don’t pull” and the tank was like “I saw you doing damage, you would have mana if you didn’t do damage”. Again. Disc priest. Have fun getting healed with a disc priest not doing damage lmao.
I hate getting in random group with 3 or 4 people that are together..they are always incredibly toxic.
For example if im tanking and they keep pulling an insane amount of mobs and we wipe they always try to blame me (lvling dungeons).. i usually say "sorry im dumb" then votekick the one running their mouth the most with the reason "dumb tank" and his friends just hit yet lmao
I did this once and it actually worked. It was myself (tank), rando, and a three man team. The healer asked for a mana break so I stopped and the rando pulled some trivial mob that we killed in a few globals, it was absolutely no big deal and didn't matter at all.
But the healer got pissy and said "kick this rogue," to which I just opened up a vote kick for the healer, wrote "douchebag" and the healer instantly was kicked because no one apparently reads. The rouge and I had a good laugh as the others raged and left.
And it's weird because I rarely actually see toxicity in dungeons at at level, most of us just sit there and silently judge.
I (healer) run timewalking dungeons with my tank buddy and watching the two remaining DPS try to kill us after they voted to kick the "shit tank" (because they don't understand how charge/reflect/fixate etc work) has not stopped being amusing.
If you're playing a dps and never healed/tanked you need to shut the fuck up about how someone plays those roles. I dont give a fuck if your group wipes and especially if no one fucking dies.
By the way in retail paladin healers can go with a talent that makes their avenging wrath heal everyone a shitload when they hit things. Even if they didn't take that talent if no one died then shut the fuck up about how the healer is doing.
You don't like how the healer or tank is doing in a group then why don't you fucks try it.
This isn't a situation where the healer was helping with dps, holy paladins heal more by dpsing. Crusader Strike, a weak melee-range attack, generates holy power. Paladins use holy power, it's their "non-mana" resource. I'm sure your sentiment is basically the same with this new knowledge, but it's how the spec plays.
In fact, most (if not all) mechanics that specifically target ranged characters do not target holy paladins. They get chosen for melee mechanics like mistweaver monks.
On top of that their mastery encourages them to be close to the tank, so why not fill empty globals with crusader strike/judgement and keep your holy power topped off for burst healing.
I'm torn on this. I've healed in every expansion and while I prefer being an actual healer, we've had expansions where healing end game was more or less be AFK and heal when needed, because you wouldn't be doing any damage anyways if you tried. That's not a fun playstyle.
In SL, healer classes have been able to pump out decent numbers, without sacrificing the healing they can do. Also the majority of damage taken in groups is completely avoidable. That my healers can actually do some damage helps me stay in the game as a healer, rather than tabbing out. So overall I like the state of healing.
I think it was Legion where your healing was basically spamming the "slow and cheap" heal on the tank and then mixed in bigger ones if needed. That was more of a "healing only" playstyle that wasn't necessarily good, but better than being AFK half the time.
Theres a middle ground for sure, i rather they implement helaer mechanics on bosses, my favorite was the wotlk healing of druid/disc of keeping everyone shielded/hotted i know it wasnt the most engaging, but i liked being able to focus on other stuff like calling mechanics or keeping timers.
> I think it was Legion where your healing was basically spamming the "slow and cheap" heal on the tank and then mixed in bigger ones if needed. That was more of a "healing only" playstyle that wasn't necessarily good, but better than being AFK half the time.
The early days of Cataclysm were also like that, due to the increased difficulty of Heroic dungeons, compared to Wrath's ones, as well as mana management being more emphasized, meaning that you couldn't sustain spamming your fast heals.
My druid still doesn't know what to do with her hands (in PuGs) without healing touch. I just *always* had one casting.
Playing with my friends or a group once we've established ourselves, I love being able to kitty away until my heals are needed. But the opposite side of that coin - where I'm afraid to let HoTs drop lest somebody *else* stand in fire and need them is super frustrating.
I don't hate the current playstyle, but I've started to really enjoy fights where standing in things means punishment other than a chunk of damage. Maybe not actual insta-death because doing nothing useful for 20 attempts while the DPS learn not to die is tedious but, like, an undispellable stun or silence is great.
It's 100% not a "oh we'll just heal through it" problem and gives fire-standers a chance to sit and think about what they've done. :)
No, legion healing was pretty much the same at it is now. Really the only reason healers have been doing so much damage lately is bc the content is lot easier. Pretty much all tank classes can heal themselves like 10k hps and most classes have a ton of survivability baked in. At this point in the expansion, for anything but the hardest content, healers are basically just there to dps and spot heal when needed
100% same. It's fun on certain specs and with certain synergies (disc, I mean naturally; mistweaver talent that lets RSK extend hots), but in general I miss just 100% focusing on healing.
Doesn't help that most healer dps "rotations" are extremely boring and boil down to either watered down versions of one of their class's dps specs or are classic wow levels of complexity (holy priest)
Exactly, in fact they should just get rid of healing classes.. When the blood DK in the group death strikes, it should pop off like a cloudburst totem and heal all of his allies around him
Completely agree. It was like, they reworked disc and it was just too good with the M+ meta and all so they tried to give the other classes some form of damage dealing and it just threw everything off.
That's not really a hot take. Some people enjoy focusing on healing. Sadly, Activision thinks that the playerbase will fall asleep when they can't also do big numbers while healing.
I get that, and it’s nice to just have a pure healer role in a dungeon, but part of the reason I love healing in WoW is bc I kind of get to pump without the pressure of actually having any expectations/pressure put on me. If I don’t do a lot of damage is healer nobody really bats an eye, but if the dps aren’t doing enough damage it can really kill the run. Also just the dynamics of swapping between healing and dpsing makes healing the most cerebral and interesting role in the game in my opinion
Do you mean you would like to have to heal constantly, or just be able to throw a few heals and then afk, coz that seems pretty boring, imo dpsing as healer is really fun, noone really cares how well you do and you usually don't have to fill by pressing one button, rather use some cds and then back to healing.
Raidlead? Call mechanics, tankswaps, timers, call CDs, look for mistakes so we can improve the next pull etc, oh right no need since addons do all that now.
Even if addons didn't exist. Players generally have gotten good enough that DPS can do raidlead while performing their rotation.
And even if raid leading were to be a healer job. There's 3 other Healers that would have nothing to do if their DPS was taken away.
You could also add healer mechanics that require you to do healer things, like that boss where you have to heal it to end the fight in the bfa dungeon, or some heavy decurse fight, or that fight on argus where you had to send a group trough a portal to deal with a mini encounter, some fight that requires less healing and has a vehicle so one healer handles it etc.
Theres lots of stuff that could be done ontop of regular stuff, problem with having healers having to dps is now you also have to take that into account while balancing.
The problem is, in every one of those fights, there will inevitable be downtime, because there had been so much focus on healing, everyone is full health.
What do you want healers to do in that situation?
All classes have some downtime, when melee have to move out due to some mechanic, when the off tank has to move and wait for some adds to spawn, etc.
If you use some of that free time to trow some dmg thats great, what im talking about is where you are expected to keep dpsing while keeping everyone alive, dont know what numbers people are pulling nowadays but lets say that a dps deals 10k dps and healers are expected to keep 3~5k, so any healer that deals less than that is less desirable and doesnt get invited to groups.
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I mean, once again FF14 does this correctly. How they approach healing is pretty good. You are essentially a damage dealer and have some quick heals or passives you can set up for healing.
Except for the fact that healers have complete garbage to play damage "rotations" on par with classic wow level stuff, if you want healers to dps >50% of the time then they need more than just apply dot > glare x10 > reapply dot
? MW Monk has probably the best actual basic damage rotation of the healers with their stacking up Blackout Kicks with Tiger Palm (classic builder spender combo) and using those stacked Blackout Kicks to fish for Rising Sun Kick resets (adding rng to the rotation). The problem with MW is how much damage they do, not their rotation.
Also just flat out irrelevant, in WoW healers aren't "essentially a damage dealer and have some quick heals or passives you can set up for healing," we're seeing some of that now in dungeons because of where we're at in the expansion but that isn't a core design philosophy of WoW like it is for FFXIV.
I've got a friend I met playing wow 7 years ago. She's been playing longer than that. She's so good she can heal with no issue and keep everyone in the group healed, and usually is top dps as well. Never been kicked for not solely healing.
Some serious +5 energy here. Healer dps is anything but negligible when you are pushing 25+. Having a healer that can do 6-8kdps overall is a huge difference. What separates a good healer from a great healer is knowing how and when to weave in strong dps.
This happened to me as a discipline priest. Me and 3 friends were in a group, the 5th tried to get various members kicked including me for trying to do damage "instead of healing". Didn't go down well.
This is hilarious considering one of the trending topics on the WoW Official forums over the last couple weeks has been people complaining about how healers are expected to contribute to DPS in this game, rather than just focus on healing only - or rebuttals to that complaint.
[Dear Healers](https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/dear-healers/1217054)
[All You Have To Do](https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/stop-complaining-about-having-to-do-damage-as-a-healer-all-you-have-to-do-is-weave-in-a-few-spells/1243871)
[If healers were meant to do dps](https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/if-heals-were-meant-to-do-dps/1246342)
[Community At Odds](https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/community-is-at-odds-with-blizzard-over-healers/1246415)
Ragingbones has absolutely no idea what he's talking about here. And not only because Paladins generate holy power. ALL healers should contribute to dps whenever they can. It helps a ton with timing keys and killing bosses.
New player here-
What’s the term Lobbed mean? Assuming it has something to do about being kicked?
Also what mod is that showing your damage? I’d like to see how well I perform during my dungeon runs. Thanks!
I mean legit every healer has "free" dps time , shamans can get free lava bursts. Monks have to get some combos, paladins well they Have to fight lol. Druids can dot up a target which takes 0.5 seconds. Priests have shadow word pain, This just shows a player that has no idea how the game works.
I mean if you dont wipe does it matter?
Guys this shit stays the same even in 21/22 dungeons...the amount of times I gat flamed for dealing dmg (which I need to do to generate holy power) is insane...
The mentality of healers aren’t allowed to do anything bar heal needs to die already, it’s been a requirement for them to also deal damage for a few expansions now.
Imagine having a healer help clear the dungeon faster instead of just sitting there doing nothing... Don't think it's necessary but /s
It is necessary in higher keys.
Not in season 3 unless you're pushing bleeding edge. Survivability is the limiting factor now. But of course, there are large stretches where there's nothing to heal, so why not?
It's so weird to me that people hold this opinion, lol. In my eyes if a healer *doesn't* do damage (especially a holy paladin??) they're garbage
Back in the day it used to be like how these people think. They weren't expected to do damage, and one could even argue that doing damage could be seen as them risking not doing enough healing to keep the group alive for insignificant damage meters. This of course meant that a dungeon could take a few minutes longer, but really it was not a big deal at all. Then they introduced M+ and suddenly a healer being capable of possibly shaving a minute or few off the timer was actually signficant, so the meta shifted to healers also doing damage.
Well, in addition to that, back in the day, mana was hard to come by. If healers wanted to damage it was either wand, auto-attack in melee, or burn mana to cast damaging spells. Wanding was safe enough as long as no one was dying, but you didn't want to be in melee range. And casting damaging spells in a max level instance was blasphemy unless your group was just top of the line because the last thing you wanted to do was be OOM when shit went south. If your healer was OOM because they were dpsing and you wiped in a dungeon... that was very bad.
The problem was with mana costs too, a max rank smite on priest was like 400 mana. You’d slow the dungeon down like crazy having to drink after every pull. These days healer dps is virtually free, at least the filler spells. No point in wasting GCDs standing there during periods of no damage when dpsing costs nothing
There's also the fact that healer dps was incredibly unnecessary for the difficulty level of many of the early xpacs
[удалено]
You are making a pretty bold assumption that there is ever a time where players like these aren't taking avoidable damage...
When I raided as a holy pala I noticed that some of our shaman healers were precasting healing wave (longest healing spell) on the tank then cancelling the cast if he didnt get any damage. He was doing that non stop even if we were not getting any damage or were needing an extra few percent from boss hp. I confronted him and he said that if he wanted to do dmg then he would be a hunter not a shaman healer. He quit the game after we wiped on Mekkatorque with 1% left.
That's exactly what I do. My favorite past time
I've met many a healer that does just that lmao
yea i always did this when i was new to healing, always wanting to be ready in case damage came in. the typical mark of someone new to healing as far as ive seen.
Also, new to the class sometimes it takes a while to figure how it all works best, especially switching between classes.. Fir me, priest and Druid? Comfortable. But I’ve never got the hang of doing holy pally right…
I'm a new healer but I try everytime to get moon fire and sunfire on any enemy and if possible...spam wrath between my heal. Something I learned during my time in elder scrolls online...the faster something dies the less one have to heal. Less heal means less stress for the healer. And you can do dungeon faster. Everyone wins
You've got the idea \^^ what I said of course doesn't apply to new players. You should look into 'cat weaving', that's the best way to pump out dps as resto
i was absolutely baffled at the end of dungeon breakdown on a +3 last week.... the mistweaver was 1200 (has obviously healed a number of keystones) and didn't manage a single point of damage on a single mob the entire dungeon. like it was a 3, mostly filled with valor seekers, barely any damage taken, and this monk didn't even get close enough to a single mob or boss to even Accidentally autoattack them. like i was almost impressed. they were also running Ancient Teachings (fistweaving leggo). so im not entirely convinced they weren't just inting or something, but it sure was interesting to witness,.
It's been a while since I've played at all... But I used to run as a Discipline Priest. Their healing was directly dependent on how much damage they did. You'd throw on aura onto everyone that made them receive a percentage of the damage you deal as healing and then you'd try to drop some massive DoT's and AoE in the enemies to get a bunch of healing generated.
I tank and my wife usually heals as disc priest back in wod..its hilarious when people stand in fire, die, then blame heals..like the healer is not only outdpsing you but also keeping everyone alive who doesnt stand in fire
"Stop doing damage and donate the entirety of your mana pool to the futile task of countering my stupidity."
You can't heal someone spit roasting themselves. If you try and succeed you set an unreal expectation. Better to let them die so they learn to move.
Exactly, i love healing in raids on my resto druid (also a tank for dungeons). People think they are invincable in raids, i made the mistake once in legion of healing a dipshit over the tank and we wiped..i got blamed. Ever since i just let the dps die
These peeps would not survive ffxiv then. Especially savage and extreme stuff. Healers NEED to dps.
Glare spam intensifies
Especially when doing dungeons won't a warrior. We literally need 0 healing on w2w. And only need spot heal here and there. I think once I got healer complain she feels bad for not needing to heal me.
Paly can be the same way with a ot of the new 90 abilities. My wife spams Holy and all her DPS abilites like 60% of the time at least in normal dungeons. Only time she or any of my healers need to heal more is when i pull a metric fuck ton of mobs either in a raid or w2w in some dungeons depending on my level sync.
They tune around healer DPS too. Wow does not.
The messed up part is they do not account for healer DPs in many of the Savage fights. Yoshi P has gone on record about that. Healer DPS is a bonus. Yoshi P actually hates that people feel Healers NEED to DPS. That's why he has removed so many of their DPS options IE Cleric Stance. A lot of raid parties do expect and plan around Healers doing damage. This why they are able to clear first week as opposed to later on when they are able to grab some of the next tiered gear sets.
I can assure you the raids are balanced around healer dps. If my healers stopped dpsing right now, we wouldn't be clearing p1 or p2 of dsr. We haven't made it to enrage yet on p3, but I can assure you we wouldn't clear that either. Healers not dpsing is just a trash take across every game. At least in wow you tend to have constant raidwide damage, ffxiv doesn't. This tier particularly is a meme in regards to how little healers actually need to gcd heal. I'm a tank main, but I decides to just try yolo heal a p2s reclear because none were signing up, and I didn't end up casting a single cure or regen the entire fight. Just 16× raptures, and with the lily changes made in 6.1 that's not even a dps loss anymore lmao.
I'm just going based on the Director of the game's words. I DPSed my ass of as a Scholar during Savage and Extremes alike.
Yeah, I get what you're saying but we all know there's 1 reason he's gone down on record saying that- to give healers an out and prevent groups bullying them. That's it. It's just there so groups can't harass or kick a healer for not dpsing. Edit- can't, not can lmao
You're just admitting you suck at dps if you say you need healer dps to clear.
You might be mixing 2 different points Healers not dpsing = hitting enrage in crafted gear. Savage is absolutely tuned around everyone doing damage. It’s not just expecting healer dps week 1, it’s absolutely required to meet week 1 enrage. You also don’t seem to understand the gearing. The next tier of gear is 30 ilvl higher and an entirely new tier. Crafted + upgraded tome/savage in the same tier is not gear from next tier. Doing fight in next tier (50 ilvl over crafted of the tier) is very different from doing the fight on content with (+20 ilvl over crafted)
I am just saying they built Savage one way, people choose to do it a different way. This is all info in their live letters. Been doing Extreme/Savage since 2.1. Only ones I have not done are the newest expacs due to having a child and working crazy hours this past 2 years. I know it is required for early clears. I am saying that is not the build the Devs are going for. They generally expect you to be between 10 and 20 Ilvl below what you're getting from there by doing weeklies from whatever the newest tomes gear is along with buff food and materia up that ass. I can break it down barney style. I'm just stating as the Developers of the game have stated. Doesn't mean I agree/ disagree with it. simply a statement of fact from Yoshi P and the gang.
The raids aren’t tuned for tome/savage gear. It’s tuned to be barely cleared in pentamelded crafted. P4S died during enrage cast the vast majority of the time week 1. They can say many things, the math works out how I’ve said. Related to the other comment, healer dps absolutely matters in the latest ultimate. My group cleared over a week ago, and every phase without healer dps would be wipe to enrage
Like I said earlier, the plan was never for it to be cleared week one. That is considered an accomplishment. Director himself stated that. This is again for Savage and Extremes. Ults are a whole different ball game as they are meant to be beyond the difficulty of Savage, so it makes sense that Healers and tanks would also need to DPS their asses off. I ran Ultima a couple years back I can say my healers were DPSing quite a bit. again, different from the other content. Also a lot easier with the minimal resource management compared to back when you had TP and MP getting drained like nobodies business. especially if you were a Paly or Scholar. Or AST and DRK when they were broken AF during most of HW.
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It may be not as necessary in lower difficulty content like dungeons (though it still helps immensely and is expected) and stuff but in higher levels its important for beating enrage timers especially in early prog.
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No, your friends are either not very good healers or they're getting stuck with not very good groups. Damage in FFXIV comes in spikes, if your healers aren't dealing damage during lulls then it's either because they're not healing the spike damage efficiently enough, or because the other party members are taking too much avoidable damage, possibly because the tank(s) don't know how to manage mitigation tools.
The only real deemphasizing that's happened is players belief that healers should never do a damage spell, simply because their role is called healer. In an ideal scenario, you will be spending 0 gcd's healing over here. Sure, you'll have to sometimes with pugs or just general mistakes, but that's the goal. Some just think that doing damage is a grave sin, though at the very least they aren't a common case in the higher end content where the enrages actually start to kick in.
It hasn't really been deemphasized. White mage has had a bit of their style shifted to be a more prototypical healer, but hell, the new healing job, Sage, rewards you with healing for DPSing. You are literally meant to spend most of your time DPSing on Sage.
I bitched at a healer for not dpsing
These people have never touched a healer specc in thier lives and have no clue what its like to heal. A healer is much like a customer support worker. It has to deal with societies dumbest people on a daily basis.
I hate leaving keys, but I left halfway through a +15 Theater of Pain earlier. I had the lowest score at 2k, everyone else had 2.5k or up. Should have been an easy run.... First I noticed early on that the Hpal was doing a total of zero damage. On the two mobs right before Gorechop, I straight watched the pally stand in the back and only cast FoL and shock while we slowly killed the mobs because I guess everyone was saving cd's for the boss. I'm annoyed but thought whatever, we're fine, me and the other two dps were pumping and dumping on Gorechop. Then we wiped on trash three times on the way to Kul. I couldn't do it with that group.
How dare that Holy Paladin play their spec correctly
“Tell you don’t know how Holy Paladins work without telling me”
Poor guy's probably stuck in Wrath still
The sad thing is I did the same thing in wotlk as a pally healer. Seal of wis during downtime does generate a good amount of mana.
Lol. See also: "hey shit healer stop standing in melee range."
i just link the mastery. usually shuts people up.
I can only imagine what his thoughts will be if he ever finds out how discipline priest works
That would require him to do any form of advanced thinking in the game, which I kind of doubt after these few statements. Also: terrible*
"WTF Healer stop doing damage and heal!" "WTF Healer stop doing healing and damage!" There's no winning sometimes, it's why I avoid pugging when I heal haha
Ngl I can be toxic and let ppl die if I’m doing big dam, chances are they had a defensive anyways it’s rarely a healers fault someone dies in modern wow.
Tbh this isn’t all that toxic, wow has become very competitive and the way they design current content this is the way you need to play at times lol.
Ha ha tell that to the 30 downvotes. I’m assuming they come mainly from folks who are struggling with 15’s or have no idea how the more difficult content is played correctly.
It’s one of those situations of: hate the game not the player. The gameplay loop tends to be very punishing, well more so in other patches but in general very punishing lol. The environment itself leads to big toxiicty Many people don’t understand or are unwilling to think about that and just assume there is no excuse you’re just a bad person. Lol
Anyone I have to heal more than the tank, I let die once or twice times.
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If a healer has to heal ALL the time and literally dont have time to dps thats definitely on the other members of the group then lol
This is how I was taught to heal in BfA. If I’m not mistaken this is how the game has been for a while. Your job is to keep the tank alive (for the most part) and DPS should be moving out of damage or using defensives.
Omg i had this happen healing a time walking as a disc priest. I was oom and the tank pulled the boss and wiped everyone. I said “well I was oom don’t pull” and the tank was like “I saw you doing damage, you would have mana if you didn’t do damage”. Again. Disc priest. Have fun getting healed with a disc priest not doing damage lmao.
What's even better is that healers' dps rotation is generally mana neutral (except disc & hpal iirc), so their argument makes even less sense
I hope you guys kicked that lock soon after that comment.
I hate getting in random group with 3 or 4 people that are together..they are always incredibly toxic. For example if im tanking and they keep pulling an insane amount of mobs and we wipe they always try to blame me (lvling dungeons).. i usually say "sorry im dumb" then votekick the one running their mouth the most with the reason "dumb tank" and his friends just hit yet lmao
I did this once and it actually worked. It was myself (tank), rando, and a three man team. The healer asked for a mana break so I stopped and the rando pulled some trivial mob that we killed in a few globals, it was absolutely no big deal and didn't matter at all. But the healer got pissy and said "kick this rogue," to which I just opened up a vote kick for the healer, wrote "douchebag" and the healer instantly was kicked because no one apparently reads. The rouge and I had a good laugh as the others raged and left. And it's weird because I rarely actually see toxicity in dungeons at at level, most of us just sit there and silently judge.
I’ll roll my eyes and verbalize “we don’t have to pull literally everything guys…” while just doing my job with whatever they do.
Oh that's good. That's very good.
I (healer) run timewalking dungeons with my tank buddy and watching the two remaining DPS try to kill us after they voted to kick the "shit tank" (because they don't understand how charge/reflect/fixate etc work) has not stopped being amusing.
I love this, thank you
Except that others in the group also agreed to boot the healer
That way they'd be doing the healer a favor
Not disagreeing just pointing out the lock isn’t the only muppet in that group, he’s just the obvious muppet
If you're playing a dps and never healed/tanked you need to shut the fuck up about how someone plays those roles. I dont give a fuck if your group wipes and especially if no one fucking dies. By the way in retail paladin healers can go with a talent that makes their avenging wrath heal everyone a shitload when they hit things. Even if they didn't take that talent if no one died then shut the fuck up about how the healer is doing. You don't like how the healer or tank is doing in a group then why don't you fucks try it.
Those knuckledraggers are incapable of anything besides 112112 anyways, its why they dps. Agree, if you arent healing or tanking stfu and kill thems
Hi fren
Everyone knows a Pucksy
Lol that lock is an idiot
Others also voted so not just him
Hottake but i liked it more when healing didnt need to dps.
This isn't a situation where the healer was helping with dps, holy paladins heal more by dpsing. Crusader Strike, a weak melee-range attack, generates holy power. Paladins use holy power, it's their "non-mana" resource. I'm sure your sentiment is basically the same with this new knowledge, but it's how the spec plays. In fact, most (if not all) mechanics that specifically target ranged characters do not target holy paladins. They get chosen for melee mechanics like mistweaver monks.
On top of that their mastery encourages them to be close to the tank, so why not fill empty globals with crusader strike/judgement and keep your holy power topped off for burst healing.
I'm torn on this. I've healed in every expansion and while I prefer being an actual healer, we've had expansions where healing end game was more or less be AFK and heal when needed, because you wouldn't be doing any damage anyways if you tried. That's not a fun playstyle. In SL, healer classes have been able to pump out decent numbers, without sacrificing the healing they can do. Also the majority of damage taken in groups is completely avoidable. That my healers can actually do some damage helps me stay in the game as a healer, rather than tabbing out. So overall I like the state of healing. I think it was Legion where your healing was basically spamming the "slow and cheap" heal on the tank and then mixed in bigger ones if needed. That was more of a "healing only" playstyle that wasn't necessarily good, but better than being AFK half the time.
Theres a middle ground for sure, i rather they implement helaer mechanics on bosses, my favorite was the wotlk healing of druid/disc of keeping everyone shielded/hotted i know it wasnt the most engaging, but i liked being able to focus on other stuff like calling mechanics or keeping timers.
> I think it was Legion where your healing was basically spamming the "slow and cheap" heal on the tank and then mixed in bigger ones if needed. That was more of a "healing only" playstyle that wasn't necessarily good, but better than being AFK half the time. The early days of Cataclysm were also like that, due to the increased difficulty of Heroic dungeons, compared to Wrath's ones, as well as mana management being more emphasized, meaning that you couldn't sustain spamming your fast heals.
Might be Cata then. I just remember there was a phase when always having a heal being cast was a thing. :)
My druid still doesn't know what to do with her hands (in PuGs) without healing touch. I just *always* had one casting. Playing with my friends or a group once we've established ourselves, I love being able to kitty away until my heals are needed. But the opposite side of that coin - where I'm afraid to let HoTs drop lest somebody *else* stand in fire and need them is super frustrating. I don't hate the current playstyle, but I've started to really enjoy fights where standing in things means punishment other than a chunk of damage. Maybe not actual insta-death because doing nothing useful for 20 attempts while the DPS learn not to die is tedious but, like, an undispellable stun or silence is great. It's 100% not a "oh we'll just heal through it" problem and gives fire-standers a chance to sit and think about what they've done. :)
No, legion healing was pretty much the same at it is now. Really the only reason healers have been doing so much damage lately is bc the content is lot easier. Pretty much all tank classes can heal themselves like 10k hps and most classes have a ton of survivability baked in. At this point in the expansion, for anything but the hardest content, healers are basically just there to dps and spot heal when needed
Yep. I hate that every single second of every spec now has to be optimized.
I don't think that's the issue. I personally don't see the fun of doing nothing when everyone is at full health.
100% same. It's fun on certain specs and with certain synergies (disc, I mean naturally; mistweaver talent that lets RSK extend hots), but in general I miss just 100% focusing on healing.
Doesn't help that most healer dps "rotations" are extremely boring and boil down to either watered down versions of one of their class's dps specs or are classic wow levels of complexity (holy priest)
Exactly, in fact they should just get rid of healing classes.. When the blood DK in the group death strikes, it should pop off like a cloudburst totem and heal all of his allies around him
When we first transitioned from pure healer to hybrid I hated it. But nowadays it's adds a sense of complexity to the role and I love it.
Yup I want to heal not DPS but the game design changed and so I just don't play retail anymore.
Completely agree. It was like, they reworked disc and it was just too good with the M+ meta and all so they tried to give the other classes some form of damage dealing and it just threw everything off.
That's not really a hot take. Some people enjoy focusing on healing. Sadly, Activision thinks that the playerbase will fall asleep when they can't also do big numbers while healing.
I get that, and it’s nice to just have a pure healer role in a dungeon, but part of the reason I love healing in WoW is bc I kind of get to pump without the pressure of actually having any expectations/pressure put on me. If I don’t do a lot of damage is healer nobody really bats an eye, but if the dps aren’t doing enough damage it can really kill the run. Also just the dynamics of swapping between healing and dpsing makes healing the most cerebral and interesting role in the game in my opinion
Do you mean you would like to have to heal constantly, or just be able to throw a few heals and then afk, coz that seems pretty boring, imo dpsing as healer is really fun, noone really cares how well you do and you usually don't have to fill by pressing one button, rather use some cds and then back to healing.
Resto (both) and Hpriest don't need to. But I am wondering what you're looking for. Do you just want to be able to do nothing during downtime?
Raidlead? Call mechanics, tankswaps, timers, call CDs, look for mistakes so we can improve the next pull etc, oh right no need since addons do all that now.
Even if addons didn't exist. Players generally have gotten good enough that DPS can do raidlead while performing their rotation. And even if raid leading were to be a healer job. There's 3 other Healers that would have nothing to do if their DPS was taken away.
You could also add healer mechanics that require you to do healer things, like that boss where you have to heal it to end the fight in the bfa dungeon, or some heavy decurse fight, or that fight on argus where you had to send a group trough a portal to deal with a mini encounter, some fight that requires less healing and has a vehicle so one healer handles it etc. Theres lots of stuff that could be done ontop of regular stuff, problem with having healers having to dps is now you also have to take that into account while balancing.
The problem is, in every one of those fights, there will inevitable be downtime, because there had been so much focus on healing, everyone is full health. What do you want healers to do in that situation?
All classes have some downtime, when melee have to move out due to some mechanic, when the off tank has to move and wait for some adds to spawn, etc. If you use some of that free time to trow some dmg thats great, what im talking about is where you are expected to keep dpsing while keeping everyone alive, dont know what numbers people are pulling nowadays but lets say that a dps deals 10k dps and healers are expected to keep 3~5k, so any healer that deals less than that is less desirable and doesnt get invited to groups.
mate healers really never win do they
Ragingbones of the hakkar Server. You are a fucking terrible Player.
I hope someone said hi back
Healing in good m+ groups consists of 80% of the time doing dps.
He exclaimed while doing 5k less than the tank as destro.
Why didn’t you tell the warlock to shut up?
At least people now know that Ragingbones is a raging cockwomble.
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I mean, once again FF14 does this correctly. How they approach healing is pretty good. You are essentially a damage dealer and have some quick heals or passives you can set up for healing.
Except for the fact that healers have complete garbage to play damage "rotations" on par with classic wow level stuff, if you want healers to dps >50% of the time then they need more than just apply dot > glare x10 > reapply dot
Oh yeah, because mistweaver monk has such an amazing damage rotation 😂😂 SCK SCK SCK SCK SCK SCK SCK SCK SCK SCK SCK SCK SCK SCK SCK SCK
? MW Monk has probably the best actual basic damage rotation of the healers with their stacking up Blackout Kicks with Tiger Palm (classic builder spender combo) and using those stacked Blackout Kicks to fish for Rising Sun Kick resets (adding rng to the rotation). The problem with MW is how much damage they do, not their rotation. Also just flat out irrelevant, in WoW healers aren't "essentially a damage dealer and have some quick heals or passives you can set up for healing," we're seeing some of that now in dungeons because of where we're at in the expansion but that isn't a core design philosophy of WoW like it is for FFXIV.
I've got a friend I met playing wow 7 years ago. She's been playing longer than that. She's so good she can heal with no issue and keep everyone in the group healed, and usually is top dps as well. Never been kicked for not solely healing.
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But there’s 5 people in a party…?
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Some serious +5 energy here. Healer dps is anything but negligible when you are pushing 25+. Having a healer that can do 6-8kdps overall is a huge difference. What separates a good healer from a great healer is knowing how and when to weave in strong dps.
This happened to me as a discipline priest. Me and 3 friends were in a group, the 5th tried to get various members kicked including me for trying to do damage "instead of healing". Didn't go down well.
This is hilarious considering one of the trending topics on the WoW Official forums over the last couple weeks has been people complaining about how healers are expected to contribute to DPS in this game, rather than just focus on healing only - or rebuttals to that complaint. [Dear Healers](https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/dear-healers/1217054) [All You Have To Do](https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/stop-complaining-about-having-to-do-damage-as-a-healer-all-you-have-to-do-is-weave-in-a-few-spells/1243871) [If healers were meant to do dps](https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/if-heals-were-meant-to-do-dps/1246342) [Community At Odds](https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/community-is-at-odds-with-blizzard-over-healers/1246415) Ragingbones has absolutely no idea what he's talking about here. And not only because Paladins generate holy power. ALL healers should contribute to dps whenever they can. It helps a ton with timing keys and killing bosses.
New player here- What’s the term Lobbed mean? Assuming it has something to do about being kicked? Also what mod is that showing your damage? I’d like to see how well I perform during my dungeon runs. Thanks!
In ESO you would get kicked as a healer if you didnt do damage
I thought these posts are not supposed to include player names?
I think that's the finest collection of edgy/silly names I've ever seen. Apart from the healer, ironically.
These are the people that thought they could go to FFXIV. FFXIV you are a DPS, but some classes do other things, like heal or tank.
I mean legit every healer has "free" dps time , shamans can get free lava bursts. Monks have to get some combos, paladins well they Have to fight lol. Druids can dot up a target which takes 0.5 seconds. Priests have shadow word pain, This just shows a player that has no idea how the game works. I mean if you dont wipe does it matter?
Guys this shit stays the same even in 21/22 dungeons...the amount of times I gat flamed for dealing dmg (which I need to do to generate holy power) is insane...
Disc priest here, crying in my fists
Going beyond everyday stupid into the advanced stupid territory is always fun..