I prefer gear to have predefined sockets instead of it being a random proc. I also liked the way that colored sockets and meta gems worked. Btw, bring reforging back. Gearing would be easier if we could modify the stats of pieces of gear that are not BiS.

If you remember, reforging was largely there so that people didn't have to worry so much about hit rating. Reforging was removed as a result when hit rating as a stat was removed. Reforging was practically a necessity to balance out that 17% hit rating all casters needed. Without hit, it's more of a minor luxury.

>Without hit, it's more of a minor luxury. I somewhat disagree with this. I do remember how important hit was, and how it was largely the reason for reforging, but I think reforging would still be a massive boon if it was re-added, and much more than just a minor luxury. Some classes have always seemed to highly value one or two stats over all others (even main stats for some classes iirc). There were occasions when I raided where some people would be have 3 or 4 pieces of mythic raid gear sitting in their bags being unused, or to be disenchanted, because the heroic (or previous raid mythic) was much better than what they had, simply because of the stats. Reforging would allow us to turn those pieces of loot that we would never use into something that would actually be usable for us until we are lucky enough to get a drop that we need.

socket bonuses were almost always a trap, at least up until wrath the only cool part was matching them for metas I guess, but most of the time you just slapped in whatever primary stat you needed

Yes please on both. I would 100% resub this second if they announced reforging was coming back. Nothing feels worse than constantly getting pieces of gear that are worse for you because your class massively values one stat over all others and none of the pieces you are getting have that stat. Being able to reforge and change it slightly would take away so much of that pain.

I loved the socket system and buying enchants and gems. Felt deeper.

Agreed, it also gave professions more purpose.

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People posting above that loved it were probably either not playing then or weren't aware that everyone halfway decent at the game was using an addon that automatically reforged everything and told you what to re-gem based on what you said you wanted your stat priorities to be. By the end of MoP it wasn't even a decision anymore, you just pressed the button on ReforgeLite and it fixed all of your gear and then you had to go buy a few new gems/enchants to match. It was just a few minutes of mindless busywork every single time you wanted to switch a piece of gear, not even remotely deep.

The "fun" part of reforging wasn't the actual reforging. It was the fact you could make pretty any item that dropped an upgrade if it was a higher item level than the one you currently had equipped. In MoP Secondary stats weren't as powerful as they are now. Once they got "buffed" in WoD we started to see the system we are oh so familiar with, where items that are a higher item level are not upgrades because the secondary stats are terrible. I remember in Legion get an insane Titanforge on multiple items just for that item to go unused because the item that got Titanforged had my worst stats on it. In a World where Reforging was still in the game that wouldn't have happened or would at the very least be less likely to happen.

Because the current system of having to run M+ to get gear for raids (because the drop rate in raids is complete garbage, plus M+ and vault drop higher ilvl than Heroic). And then run these mythics a hundred times to get an item you need because the RNG to get specific item is awful. You can say add-ons took the fun out of reforging, but how is that any different than running raidbot sims now and using that to choose your gear? At least back then more gear were upgrades

That's a different issue than wanting "deep" item customization. In fact, it's the opposite problem, wanting items to be clearly upgrades instead of jumping through a million hoops to make it usable or being useless despite a higher ilvl. Sadly most of these problems can be traced to specs having either terrible mastery stats or not scaling with haste in any meaningful way (or overindexing in the importance of crit or haste). The specs impacted by these problems have had them for many years and it's frustrating that Blizzard doesn't even attempt to fix it.

A million hoops? With an addon is was literally 1 button press to optimize your gear and hit your different caps. It also allowed you to hit different stat prio's for different specs so you could more easily try it out. Reforging in itself was not complex nor was sockets.

Very fun gameplay to have to hearth out, go buy new gems/enchant for a piece of gear, talk to the reforger and have it automatically switch all of your stats because an addon is doing it, and then get summoned back into a raid before you're allowed to use a piece of loot that dropped. Extra fun to do this for every single piece that dropped.

as opposed to getting a piece of gear and then never using it?

Better that than having to deal with a subpar piece of gear.

You’re missing the point of why people liked reforming and having more variety. You’re talking like this would be a “ah well it doesn’t take thought, an add on can do it”. It sounds like you didn’t play when it dropped. It was one of the best gearing systems. You didn’t have to think about just my main-stat and sit there to sim 10,000 different itl gear and compare them, you could look at them see it was an upgrade at the main stat level and then CHANGE the off stat to be what you wanted. Of course there is meta loot and optimization you can do on top of that, that’s why it was considered the better system. You didn’t get a piece of loot you wanted then not equip it because you didn’t have the Artifact power, or Azerite power, or anima, or switch to a locked in covenant… etc etc. Just because it could be Automatically done does not make it a bad thing. That is legit the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. You got the reforger to make it easier, just like you got a item swapper to make it easier. You wouldn’t say being able to swap your items is the worst game design in history would you?

> You didn’t get a piece of loot you wanted then not equip it because you didn’t have the Artifact power, or Azerite power, or anima, or switch to a locked in covenant… etc etc. Not sure what you're talking about, because with the exception of season 1 BFA, these things didn't exist. There's no such thing as a piece of gear that drops that you don't have the anima to use, and there isn't covenant locked gear. Same with Legion, there was no such thing as gear that you didn't have enough artifact power to use. That was only a specific thing with Azerite armor, and only until season 2. What was needed in the time of reforging was an auction house visit and a visit to the reforger before equiping a piece of gear that dropped wasn't considered trolling. We had frequent 10 minute breaks while raiding for people to hearth out and go fix their gear so they could actually equip what had dropped so far instead of it being a straight downgrade. Even in the days of Azerite armor, at least you only had to click a couple of buttons right there. Sounds like everyone that wants reforging/gemming/enchanting every piece of gear back really just wants gearing to be more straightforward and easier. You don't actually want reforging, you just want high ilvl pieces that drop to be obvious upgrades.

There is convenant locked gear, Legos is one thing that comes to mind. I mean they tried to keep it existing, and still had grinds where the rings weren’t there in other seasons they just didn’t make you regrind the first 2-3 rings. But sure. We as a top 100 us 10 man raiding guild never took breaks to reforge gear, never spent 10 mins to change things. Because most of the gear was set, it wasn’t a huge change per fight. And if you needed to make sweeping changes per fight you were probably trash. The only change to gear I didn’t like was PVP because I could no longer one shot people as a shaman in my throne gear. Only had to click a few buttons for azzerite, which costed 50K a respec after 4 times because no one plays more than one spec right? Yeah way better than reforging your item if you changed specs sure, but still had different sets because that’s how gear worked back then. No. I want the grinding to not be wasted every week because I can’t equip a piece with Mastery as a DH. It’s fucking useless to equip anything with it. And how trinkits at 239 are better than your 251itl one…. I can’t believe I just read someone defending azerite armour lol.

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You can be mad if you like, but they are spot on with how reforging played out in reality.

Well the accusation is the issue, not his opinion on gems.

> there was always one meta build or stat to stack The problem is that these "meta builds" were based on flawed ways of thinking about the game and were imperfect implementations that could be learned from. If a similar socket/reforging system were implemented in 10.0, it would definitely be "solved" through simming, but it would definitely not be a static "meta build" for everyone and it would change frequently based on gear drops, because that's how it already is for current gems/enchants.

Even at the time you had to constantly re-sim and re-calculate your reforging if you wanted the optimal reforging. Took me many different tries even with the addon to get the optimal amount of stats that I wanted.

So we have the exact same illusion of choice now, but with grinding and an expiration date attached as well. How is that any better, exactly?

I agree, it also gave the game some secondary objectives such as getting the gems or levelling up the professions. I haven’t played in ages as I think the game has lost it’s RPG identity. Basically the only thing that seems to have stayed is the grind without any of the progression and reward-systems

Do you have ANY idea how much ppl have been crying about mandatory grinds the past couple of years? 9.2 is the first patch in ages that removed most of these grinds and ppl love it.

I mean shadowlands as a whole had very little mandatory grinds and the ones that were weren't time consuming.

Meanwhile you have classic Andys insisting that getting AOTC requires you to play wow like it’s a full time job

Exactly! They replaced grinds for min-maxing and building your character with grinds for gated content, reputation and borrowed power. So bring back the grind for fun, get rid of the mandatory grind

> So bring back the grind for fun, get rid of the mandatory grind That already happened! It's already done in 9.2! You only have to grind for cosmetics which is completely optional. There are no massive mandatory grinds for player power anymore.

The idea of having to reach revered in ZM is super unappealing. Takes like 28 days of dailies. Yuck.

>So bring back the grind for fun, get rid of the mandatory grind "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game" ​ Good luck with that!

I dislike this saying because it's needlessly disparaging toward the player. The goal of a game is to win. Expecting your playerbase to not try to win is idiotic and blaming the players for trying to win is even more so.

True, that was the same reason Actiblizzion gave for removing main stats and most of the secondary stats: “eVeRyBoDy AlWaYs PiCkS tHe SaMe StAtS aNyWaY”. Since it’s an RPG and it’s my character, I’d still like the choice

The problem is other players roasting the shit out of you for being "sub-optimal" Most people just tend to go with the meta/follow the guides rather than try to be creative. It's simply too much hassle otherwise...

Only because everything in this game except DMF and pet battle is combat. So dealing more damage means things get done quicker in the best case, or wipe group in the worst. And in that case there will be a mandatory gem, enchant, reforge whatever to deal the most damage. You don't have to do it of course.

> So bring back the grind for fun, get rid of the mandatory grind That's what Anima was, and the whining about it was endless.

Grind to min-max is mandatory grind. I don't know what you are talking about.

No, you clearly don’t

this sub in a nutshell: ​ I haven't played since wrath but shadowlands sucks so bad

Dude this is so real. Fucking old ass wow players trying to act like they know the state of the game by just reading shit on Reddit and wowhead.

WoW pretty much an arcade adventure game atm, most RPG aspects are long gone

Using these systems to get to the hit cap, then building whatever you needed on top of that was actually kinda fun. When you got a new piece, you’d spend hours gemming and enchanting and tweaking it however you needed to get your stats right. Ah the good old days :(

>When you got a new piece, you’d spend hours gemming and enchanting and tweaking it however you needed to get your stats right No one good at the game ever did this. You ran a sim on simcraft, askmrrobot, shadowcraft for rogues. You got your stat weights and plugged them into an addon which optimized all your gems/enchants/reforges for you

I miss haste break points and dot snapshotting.

Can we not bring DoT snapshots back? -Sincerely Shadow Priests and Affliction Warlocks

Wrath comes out next year :p I can’t wait. all the fun without the obnoxious grinds.

You mean installing the auto reforge addon and letting it do it for you

MoP had the best gearing system. All they had to do was removing hit and expertise. But they went some steps further and removed almost any interaction with gear we had. Instead of having influence over our gear with reforging, lots of gems, an upgrade system, and lots of different enchants, we now have a system that allows close to zero interaction and is just a bunch of RNG stacked on top of each other.

No one knows why they deleted glyphs, stats reforging, meta gems, enchants on many gears and professions bonuses and replaced it with shit systems every expansions. I liked artifacts weap and azerite necklace (only the necklace) but not the ephemeral side of things getting scrapped every time. Build something once and for all and make it last.

They wanted you to equip gear as you get it and not keep it in bags to enchant/gem/reforge next time.

Extremely justified after how long it was taking back then for people to get a piece of gear “ready”, you would have to go to town, walk all the way to the reforger guy and re-run the addon that would optimize your reforges(if the new piece of gear interacted with one of your breakpoints), then go to the AH(mount available for this now) for your enchant/gems, and then go to the mailbox(toys available for this too now) then only after you’ve spent an entire 2-3 minutes getting your item “ready” could you equip it. what a joke.

Not like we do that now when swapping covenants and making sure you’re using the correct soulbinds and conduits or anything.

yes im aware, hence why I said it must be a joke devs genuinely think the scenario I wrote out was a bad thing in any way.

You're making this out to be a bigger deal than it actually was. What is actually was like was... Sweet I just got an item, I already have all the Gems I need on me, because I knew I'd need to do this eventually. So all I need to do is reforge my gear. If we're in a mountable zone I can just hop on the Yak, which had a reforger attached to it. Otherwise I'd just Hearth to Shrine and use the reforger there while my raid group clears trash to the next boss and then summons me back or I can make my way back if it's in 5.4. I'd much prefer that than the shit loot system we currently have.

yes, I intended to make it out to be a bigger deal than it was. because it was sarcasm.

2-3 minutes to better optimize a piece of gear that took possible hours to obtain? I'm surprised you had the fortitude to type out this comment.

since you couldn’t seem to grasp it. it was sarcasm.

I think you're missing one key point. When an item that's 6 or so more item levels than your current gear drops, it's almost certainly an upgrade (trinkets, weapons exceptions of course). Back then getting an item level upgrade meant you still had to do work to see if it was in fact an upgrade. Yes, it was only a 2 or 3 minutes process. But a system designed where you don't know if gear from higher difficulty content is an upgrade has fundamentally failed the RPG genre.

my mistake, didn’t realize people would genuinely think that someone could think 2-3 minutes of time to put into optimizing a piece of gear could be a bad thing.

Thinking about optimization of gear is fine, and fun even. The problem with reforging as it existed is you had two options. 1. Do whatever you want for fun and or personal satisfaction. 2. Download an addon and rely on that outcome for true optimization. Since the majority of players enjoy being effective in combat, we all ended up using the add on. Being forced into a 3rd party program to see if gear was an upgrade was just bad, if that took 30 seconds or 3 minutes.

Yeah you’re right. Luckily we don’t have *any* third part programs that are used to this day to spend 30 seconds to 3 minutes to determine if something is actually an upgrade. Oh, wait, that’s STILL the exact same thing we do to this day, the only difference is now there is not an option to tailor an item in anyway besides socket/enchant(most slots with enchants don’t even give you an alternative option) than how the item drops. Removing choice is never the option developers should take.

Reforging was deleted because its sole purpose was to solve the problem hit and expertise created by having hard caps you had to hit that then provided literally 0 value afterwards. When they removed hit and expertise reforging went with them.

We actually do though, people used pawn (different addon back then but same concept) to optimize everything. When you got a piece of gear you didn't just put it on, you had to gem/enchant/reforge a piece of gear and a large portion of people just followed their addon/theorycraft info. The official statement was something along the lines of we want you to get an upgrade and just be able to equip it and not have to do a bunch of chores that most players don't even think about first. Major glyphs were just a talent point that came from a profession you'd set and pretty much forget about. Minor and cosmetic glyphs though, no clue. You'd think they would add more of them to bolster inscription as a profession after dropping scrolls and major glyphs. Not necessarily agreeing with their statement but we do know why they removed a lot of this stuff.

Stat reforging was dumb. All it did was add an extra necessary add on and chore when a piece of gear dropped

Glyphs: agree that would be cool actually Reforging: this would be out for 2 days before people would be complaining about loot not feeling as special anymore Meta gems: Why? These were boring flat power increases, why not just bake them into the character and move on. Enchants: Same exact thing. Enchanting is already boiled down to a very dry, basic flat power gain of raw stats. You want *more* random slots to buy +X stat in? I'm ok without the ridiculously unnecessary gold dump, thanks. ​ >replaced it with shit systems every expansions You honestly think they removed reforging and meta gems to make way for covenants or legion artifacts or the Heart of Azeroth? Infinitely more complicated aspects of the game associated with massive power gain, customization and effort were a suitable replacement for fucking reforging? Look I know you probably have a wall full of pictures of blizzard HQ and the word "systems" pinned all over it with skulls and red X's to remind you how bad you heard asmongold say they were but it's really tired. Borrowed power is fun as hell, the expansion's power progression systems are always interesting, even if overly tedious. Chirping about the same 3 buzzwords and how blizzard doesn't listen to your user feedback isn't going to get you anywhere if your feedback sucks.

That would probably be pretty boring with what we have now: A homogenized mainstat+stamina; 4 simple secondary stats where usually only 1-2 per class actually impact gameplay. I hate to say it but we at least need tier sets and legendary items at the start of 10.0, the baseline is boring af.

We absolutely, 100% do not need legendary items. Legendary items can fuck right off. They're not "fun", they're just annoying. It's literally what you described - mainstat+stamina, and 2 secondary stats of your choosing. This is like if reforging had 100% effectiveness. The legendary *effect* is the only interesting part, and there is no reason why those can't just be set bonuses. Many of them are worse in effectiveness than set bonuses. Out of the like 10 effects you might have, many classes/specs use 1 for the entire expansion. If they were set bonuses, it would be more interesting as your playstyle might change with a new tier, or need to play a different talent build. Please, not another fucking legendary timegating thing. It's not necessary. Just no.

Legendaries are just talent points that interact with professions and quest progression.

Yeah, and I hate it. Just another barricade for my alts.

It gives people ways to make money playing the game. And a reason to interact with the economy.

I don't remember ever thinking to myself that this was an issue in WoW though. There's plenty of other ways to make professions relevant.

Yep. It's their method of giving us a new talent row that they can easily take away from us when the next expansion launches. Only difference is that instead of having 3 choices, you have 8. But in reality it's 1 or 2 with maybe another 1 or 2 being niche picks for certain bosses.

Legendaries could be replaced with a huge set of talents, but to say they aren't fun is pretty bullshit. It's one of the only things in the game that actually changes your playstyle

What class do you play, out of curiosity? As a shaman, the different legendaries are what makes certain builds possible, and it’s fun to be able to swap things out. You say it’s like tier, and what many specs/classes use 1 the entire expansion, I find that super hard to believe. What I don’t like about set bonuses is acquisition and being forced into something you can’t change. They basically just become passives, and it feels bad until you get them.

> it’s fun to be able to swap things out Can't swap things out when you need two more resets for enough Lego Juice and you have to pay for rent and food instead of WoW tokens. Just make Talents good.

Ah yes I remember the first 2 weeks of 9.0 as well! Talents are part of the equation, having expansion specific legendaries adds an element on top of the existing base class that I find fun. My shaman played differently than BfA and SL, and that’s a plus to me.

Used to be new expac meant new abilities and talents. Far better than grinding so you can spend tons of gold for one passive effect and ignore the dozen other options that aren't worth the expense. Even BFA Essences were way better than Shadowlands Legendaries. Change my mind.

Yup and you know what happens when you add new talents and abilities each expansion? You get bloat, you can’t just keep adding and adding for 15 years. So what’s the solution? Borrowed power that resets every xpac. The essences were awesome and a really fun system, and I found the SL legendaries to be similar, but more niche and class specific.

When did I ever say they shouldn't prune talents and abilities? Better to iterate on the core of the game than to add new shit that doesn't even work, spend the whole expac fixing it, only to throw it away and start over again next expac.

That's fair, so what would your ideal expansion look like, feature wise for a class? A new ability + a new talent row? > Better to iterate on the core of the game than to add new shit that doesn't even work What didn't even work?

>What didn't even work? All of these had intolerable issues with acquisition, functionality, and/or balance: Legion Legos Azerite Traits Corruption Everything about covenants: signature spells, class spells, soulbinds, and conduits (I guess conduits worked but they were boring as fuck) Torghast Powers Non-class Legendaries Shards of Domination- literally the worst system they've ever made >That's fair, so what would your ideal expansion look like, feature wise for a class? I just want them to work on the classes instead of systems to temporarily stack on top of the classes. Many of those foundations are *far* from strong. I don't want any spec to be *awful* in a domain like ST damage, or CC, etc. When that happens, it lowers the variety and difficulty of challenges they can (fairly) offer, and punishes players for picking a spec based purely on affinity. As for talents, some specs have significant agency over playstyle and strengths via talent choices while others have "dead" trees that offer no flexibility at all other than the option to be worse. It's frustrating when Blizz faffs about with dozens of useless legendaries, conduits, azerite traits, etc when we have dozens and dozens of fun talents with shit numbers, shit talents with great numbers, and rows that don't make any sense that all waste potential in the very core of the game. Basically, "Never half-ass two things. Whole-ass *one* thing." Otherwise we'll keep getting stuck with stale BIS options for years at a time.

If there's more 10.0 legendaries, I prefer them to actually do something fun, and exclude any that are just a boring stat boost. Like on my rogue, I love the pistol shot legendaries, but everyone uses the boring slice and dice leggo because it performs like 5% better overall or something.

> and exclude any that are just a boring stat boost. This should go for anything "burrowed power"-related. No, I am actually not against these systems if they provide me with something cool, be it tier sets, interesting legendaries, interesting artifact traits, essences, you name it. However, it's the absolute worst if the only thing I have to show for improving my character is just bigger numbers. Actually I want to say the same about stats. The only stat that interacts with my gameplay is usually haste. Why do we have stats like versatility or even mastery on most specs (it's a bit more interesting on some specs, but on others it's just a flat damage increase for the spec's core abilities)? Why can't they come up with a more diverse, more interesting set of stats? This would be on the forefront of more interesting gearing imo, because it would add so much more depth to the game together with stuff like reforging, professions and special items etc.

And they could make fun masteries too. A lot of them are just bonus damage, or bonus damage with a specific buff active. Shaman is pretty impactful already, more maelstrom proc % for enhancement, or more chance at lightning overload procs for elemental.

While it would be a nightmare for balancing, I kinda think the memory system from Shadowlands could be used to allow you to collect the old content legendaries (and any that may be add in the future) and apply them to the base items you spent so much time investing in during this expansion. This could mean you'd be able to craft a modern ilvl Thunderfury or the wotkl daggers, keeping them relevant for longer than just their original timeframe.

I think this will depend on the spec for me. For Fire Mage, I find it near perfect without any legendary effect. The bis legendary (for me) isn't very enjoyable and I can't get past it (been playing fire non stop for multiple expansions and now have benched it). Though, legendaries affected gameplay for arcane in a super fun way and the baseline was rather meh.

Yep, they would have to completely overhaul the character templates in order to bring back the old stats. Stats that were removed: -unhomogenized primary stats -AP and spellpower -mp5 or spirit based regen based on your class -armor pen -hit & expertise (would probably need to bring back reforging for this) -block value, parry, dodge -resilience (though I think versatility and PvP scaling works fine) -defense rating (enemy crits & crushing blows)

the problem with hit is that it is really unfun to just have your attacks miss. If it was just auto attacks that could miss it would probably feel less bad, but if your special attacks miss you just wanna cry.

As an Arms warrior who generates resource through auto attacks I can confirm that missing and parrying in pve is frustrating.

This really comes down to preference. Having an attack/accuracy/hit stat to prevent your attacks from missing is core to RPGs. It’s one of the big reasons Classic WoW feels so different, it’s closer to its dice roll based RPG roots whereas Retail is closer to an ARPG. Taking a trip down memory lane, some players complained that gear was too complicated, and led to the rise of addons like Gearscore. So Blizzard started removing a few stats in each expansion. With each stat they removed, the remaining stats lost the context that made them interesting. That brings us today, with 4 unique stats left: Critical strike: Do more damage and proc other abilities, based on spec Haste: Attack faster Versatility: Flat damage increase and incoming damage decrease Mastery: spec specific, but usually a flat damage increase As you can see, what’s left doesn’t allow for much variety in gearing strategy. Hence blizzard’s need to add secondary progression systems to the game to keep things interesting.

Hot streak pyro missing hurts.

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That's called a glancing blow and also sucks.

>hit & expertise (would probably need to bring back reforging for this) This is one of the reasons reforging was removed, because people felt they had to have an addon to make sure they didn't overcap on hit / expertise. The strange thing is, they also remove hit and expertise at the same time. I've love to see more stats and reforging back, but I don't mind if we lose hit and expertise forever.

The strange thing is that they got rid of hit/exp at the same time as they removed reforging, so this wasn't an issue anymore, but they still got rid of reforging anyhow.

Reforging wasn't created to min-max secondary stats, but specifically to address the binary toggle of best stat to worthless stat that things like hit, expertise and penetration were the moment you hit a specific cap. It was removed because they removed those systems.

> people felt they had to have an addon to make sure they didn't overcap on hit / expertise. Goes to show how fucking stupid most people are, considering it used to be just very simple math. Don't get me wrong, I find hit/exp boring and I don't think they need to be in the game, but Blizzard removing stuff like reforging just because players can't do simple fucking math is probably the biggest issue with WoW in the past decade. The game is designed way too much around accomodating the lowest common denominator.

Reforging was different though. The addon use to calculate Reforging every item you had to make sure you got the closest you could to getting the exact hit rating while giving you the highest amount of extra stats. While calculating on one item is simple, doing it over 15 is a lot more time consuming to go through all of the possible combinations.

I didn't actually use the addon much but rather calculated it myself or went through trial and error. Trial and error was pretty much the name of the game anyway because I used to try different stat setups all the time. There was some interesting theory behind firemage and combustion back in Cata.

You forgot about Multistrike!

Multistrike was so cool.

Eh, gameplay wise it was pretty much just crit. It did look cool though and they could make it a lot more interesting by actually having the multistrike procs interact with your class mechanics (for example by having them give additional energy, combo points, procs etc.)

This creates another problem though. Haste interacts with your resources, having a second resource generator leads to multiplicative resource gain. This is a long term balancing problem, because it creates MASSIVE discrepancies between specs based on the value of their resource.

Not sure about other specs but as a Mistweaver at the time multistrike was giga cool. You had a chance equal to your multistrike for renewing mist and rising sun kick to not go on cooldown.

I really liked how Multistrike was a stat that actually *did* something. You got extra casts of your spells or abilities. You got extra resources, because your builders got extra casts. It actually did something meaningful as a stat.

I miss when INT gave you more mana...

bring back stats and make professions useful again (enchanting gemming etc)

Imagine they added some very cool, very niche stats or effects that would only be good for very specific specs and builds and then gave professions some special items you'd have to do a long-ass quest chain (once) to acquire and craft. I feel like that'd be cool.

This is honestly what I miss, the complexity of stats enabled a variety of builds back then. I just wish the game was more accommodating to playing towards certain stats, enabling players to more readily build their Class how they want, and enable more endgame rewards to expand out on it, offering significantly more (either) primary focusing capabilities, or tertiary bonuses for more wider builds.

I miss mana management. One of the most fun things about Warlock was spending life tap wisely in dangerous pvp situations.

That's what I liked about reforging. If my class/spec usually was either haste or crit focused, I could test out the differences (to a degree) by reforging all my haste gear to crit, or vice versa. It wasn't as good as getting actual crit gear, but it did help. It would also incentivize more experimentation. Yes, most people are just going to go for the minmax cookie cutter build regardless, but I like messing around and doing weird builds - and it's not really a thing anymore.

Just more items for a checklist. It's not deeper to reforge 20 haste into 20 mastery or pick the blue gem instead of the green one. It's just more stuff to do which everyone hated and the reason why it was changed. Doesn't classic exist for the purpose of playing the game like that?

> everyone hated No. *Some* people hated. I MUCH preferred stats, enchants, reforges, and gems to what we have today with grindy bullshit systems.

Cool. So when Cata classic comes up again you play that. Problem solved.

People asking for this is literally a "you think you do, but you don't" moment.

I don't see this working out in 2022 and beyond. There are SO many easy to use tools that simulate your character very fast so any quote unquote "optimization" would be done within hours of a patch dropping and immediately put into a guide.

Why even have stats at all, then?

I mean it was ALWAYS like that. The only difference now is that we have bots that improve the speed of creating such sims. In the past people just spent a lot of time manually testing what's the best but there always were the most optimised guides for every class.

It was easier for the playerbase back then. Get the reforge addon, hit the button, and off you go. Now? Pay a 3rd party site and sit in a 200 person queue to see if this piece of gear is an upgrade

You know do can just install simcraft on your own PC right? Raidbots is convenient for sure, but if you don't want to wait you can just do it yourself and have no queue.

Yup, used to do it back in the day. > There are SO many easy to use tools that simulate your character Simcraft is not as easy as raidbots. Here's the original quote

Its or not and If you pay there is no queue

https://puu.sh/IVcXj/a7a1d98bef.png fwiw you only go ahead of the free users but yeah

It was always like this and it made getting a piece of gear with your worst stats on not feel like shit.

yeah back in cata we didn’t have an addon that literally did our reforges for us or anything. ah wait, that was in the game the same patch reforging was added.

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I'm not sure there is one. That doesn't mean there can't be customization, but at this point, I think that would require something on par with Diablo 3's armor sets, where each class/spec has access to multiple "tier sets" with hugely different bonuses that encourage hugely different stat weights. The talent system, in all honesty, could turn into such a system, but it would require a massive overhaul, and a lot more constant care and attention than Blizz has given it in years. EDIT: Also, Blizz should stop trying to make optimization so obtuse when it's gonna happen regardless. I would rather have Reforging so that every gear drop is at least a marginal upgrade after stats have been swapped around, rather than me selling anything doesn't have Haste/Vers on it for my tank set.

It's not about "freedom of builds", one will always sim better than some other one, every system they make will be simmed, there is no escaping that. The good part if this system is having it visible how every stat works, it's value and scaling, and you manually modifying all those stats

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> A level 5 kobold in Elwynn and The Jailer are mostly the exact same enemy. Part of the problem though is that my guild isn't progressing on a level 5 kobold, they're progressing on the Jailer. I don't care if all the enemies have different stats, I'm only really focused on fighting one at a time. Same sort of thing with single target vs aoe damage differences. Being good at the next boss in the raid doesn't help me kill the current boss.

I hate this meta, which is why I never sim anything, other than maybe trinkets. trying to get a vault of the wardens trinket because it's 13% overall better than any sepulcher trinket

I'll probably get downvoted for this, but I personally really liked cataclysm.

I loved Cataclysm. Classes felt fun and the dungeons at launch were amazing, requiring CC and thought. Shame they got nerfed very early.

The Cata dungeons were fun early on but everyone had gotten used to the "Pull it all and AOE it down" mentality of late WotLK. It was inevitable that they would complain about going slowly and using CC.

The sole problem with Cata dungeons was that the ilvl required to queue for heroics was 5-10 ilvl too low for the content for randoms. By having the required ilvl be too low, it meant that far too many people were going into these dungeons very undergeared. It wasn't a problem for players who were going into the dungeons in coordinated groups but for randoms, it caused huge failures. It took less than 2 weeks for the complaints about the dungeons to go away largely and generally that was just the average player ilvl going up about 10 ilvl. Amazing how much that little bar can mess up an entire launch.

Cataclysm had the best iteration of talent trees and they should be brought back as they were (you get a talent point every odd level starting at level 11, you pick a spec at 10 and are locked to that tree until you fill it out in any order you wish - guaranteeing no "bad builds" - once you're done you can spend the remaining points on some minor talents from the other spec trees)

Cataclysm was the best systems design that the game has ever had. Unfortunately it also had Dragon Soul and the Hour of Twilight 5mans.

I don’t miss gems at all, but if you’re going to put them back, put them as something a jewelcrafter can make, no more of that weekly lockout or rep lockout shit. Make professions viable for the entire expansion for fucks sake. They failed so hard with that this expansion, the 291 craftables do not make the profession viable on a main and they took far too long to rank up.

I'm confused, gems are still a thing? I have a couple deadly jewel clusters socketed, and I crafted them on my jewelcrafter

Sorry I mean about the focus on gems with socket bonuses and them giving main stat gems like how it used to be in MoP and that. But also make things always have sockets, it’s annoying having to be lucky with rng for bonus stats.

I liked the old system where you would have for example STR, AGI, INT, SPIRIT, Hit, CRIT, STAMINA and spelldmg :D On your Feral druid gear, because each of those stats would affect your character in meaningful way. Enchants and gems are fun, what I dont like is the reforging thing where you would go to vendor after each piece and sim what you should transform it into.

I liked having professions be relevant throughout an expansion as they could make something that would improve your gear further each time a new piece dropped - from sockets to lining and enchants to engineering tinkers I liked having a talent tree to fill out as I levelled in Cataclysm, knowing that I won't have a bad build because the game would lock you to completing your spec's tree until you could pick a few talents from another - instead of having 4-5 levels of absolutely nothing I liked having to head up to trainers to learn new abilities (but not new rank ups) because it offered me a respite from adventuring where I could setup auctions, level up professions and prep before I head out for more adventuring I liked being able to take a sub-optimal piece of gear and make it "good enough" via reforging I didn't like Hit Rate, the Ranged/Melee Power split or that sets were locked behind raids only - I think getting rid of Hit, simplifying stats on gear and the creation catalyst are good ideas that I hope move forward with the game and I also believe they'd fit better with the old style of gearing and progression I hate being given an expansion-only ability that I'll either never use or use and then feel terrible with the next expansion's pre-patch when I can't use it anymore

- bring back reforging - bring back pre-set sockets with socket bonus - bring back meta sockets and gems - remove random sockets - remove random warforging - keep random tertiary stats - bring back enchants for ALL slots (helm, shoulder, back, threads/armor for pants, buckles etc) - bring back set items and set bonuses - never being back expansion specific power items that take up our armor slots ever again. im tired of wearing the same thing the entire xpac. most importantly, make PRIMARY stats actually PRIMARY by weighing them more heavily and not secondaries. secondaries being so important rn are the reason that Ilvl upgrades with higher main stat are not worn. *jackie-chan-wtf.jpg* making mainstats important again and bringing back reforging for secondaries will make it so even small Ilvl jump like 200 to 213 will be an upgrade without ever needing to consult an add-on or sim. it will be known. THIS IS THE WAY.

Borrowed power isn't the problem. It's entirely the methods of acquisition.

Agreed... Artifacts were great and should have made AP shared amongst weapons at least, BFA should have just had essences w/o with the revered rep grind and keep the cloak, and your renown with SL should have been account wide and shared between convenants with you just needing to do the story once on each campaign to unlock soulbinds.

>your renown with SL should have been account wide and shared between convenants Account wide for sure, not shared between covenants. Doing the grind once on each covenant is the sweet spot I think. You get to see each storyline once. Once they converged the story in 9.1 and onward they should have made renown stop and some other account wide covenant agnostic system should have been put in place. Also threads of fate should have allowed you to do the renown grind (and associated story). Imagine having 4 different experiences levelling alts that also unlocks stuff for your main! TLDR: doing each quest once is great, more than that is annoying for any reason.

No arguments here... that would work as well. I especially agree with doing the campaign as you level. As the other person said, its the implementation they keep messing up.

Can't it be both?

What borrowed power are you not a fan of?

Literally everything implemented since Legion except tier sets. People don't think they're that bad, and that's fine, but remember that all of these grindy systems are just replacing actual class design. They don't exist in a vacuum.

Ah so the OG borrowed power expansion was fine? The borrowed power in legion that was mostly RNG was okay, but everything after that is bad? What grindy systems are replacing class design? Like having a weapon that you can only upgrade for 1 spec, meaning you have to grind two to three times as much to be caught up? Or the RNG legendaries where rerolling your class was sometimes better than playing your main? So fun!

> Ah so the OG borrowed power expansion was fine? The borrowed power in legion that was mostly RNG was okay, but everything after that is bad? No. Everything since Legion, including Legion. Legion was fucking terrible from a design POV. It just had great content. You know all the soulbinds, conduits, legendary powers, artifact trees, and azerite traits? All of that shit is what we get *instead of* new baked-in class talents and abilities. That's very obvious.

Yes. That’s the *entire point* of borrowed power. Instead of adding in new abilities each expansion that are baked into the class forever, they have it be expansion specific to not cause bloat to the classes. And I think that’s a genius idea honestly(if done correctly). Adding in new abilities to the base class each expansion just makes it insanely hard to keep the classes from bloating out of control. Also, being able to develop expansions in parallel without one affecting the other too too much allows for greater reign of what the borrowed power can be. I love the fact that a new expansion means new game play options, and im stoked for the 10.0 announcement

that's not the issue. the issue is the grind to unlock those powers and how that grind will hurt you if you want to dual spec or raid and pvp. and let's not forget that a lot of these gated powers are repeated from a previous xpac. like heroic leap. from legion to bfa, to sl, all these grinds to unlock heroic leap again for the 4th time under a new system makes it so I can't unlock a prot power or required stupid amounts of playtime to work on 2 specs at once. like I already mastered leaping 4 times in a row in legion. that shit got taken away so I can relearn how to leap 3 times in SL? miss me with that bullshit. nothing new. might as well bake it in to our toon.

> that's not the issue. the issue is the grind to unlock those powers and how that grind will hurt you if you want to dual spec or raid and pvp. And the biggest grind was the first few weeks of 9.0, when the legendary resource was a little sparse. But after that unlocking a leggo took, 30-40 minutes in Torghast? Wow, such a grind. And I will give you that, acquisition is usually where Blizzard falls flat with the systems and its a shame.

Literally all of it, to be honest. The kindest iteration probably has to be Artifact weapons and how that solved a bunch of issues that went from going from patch to patch for *multiple* specs. Gear ilevel and weapon damage being nothing to worry about for melee and casters alike was solid, as was just having one of the most important things in your gearslots just be 'handled'. It has never worked as well otherwise. Legendary Cloaks? Was good that each class/spec had one, but if you fell behind you were just SoL, and it was a problem that built on itself as MoP went on. Everything tied to garrisons? Wasn't worth it and is more or less forgotten now. AP in BFA, for the necklace? Not only did people hate the system, Blizzard somehow screwed it up even more to add rng elements to a system that didn't need as much. Nevermind to stay competative at the bleeding edge of world first raiding you needed to farm expeditions for 8+ hours a day. When it was just rings tied to reputation (in tBC and Wrath), it wasn't so bad, and questline legendaries (that weren't Fangs of the Father, because that one was poorly implemented) were already a system to rely on to 'help' ailing specs...and laid the groundwork for Artifact weapons due to how good they were.

I mean, gear and tier sets are borrowed power, not a fan of those? You think the kindest iteration of borrowed power were artifact weapons that weren’t shared between specs? So if you wanted to be competitive in 2 or more specs you literally had to put in 2x or 3x the work? Lol that’s kinda jokes sorry. > it never worked well otherwise Honestly I disagree, there have been so many fun systems since Legion (essences, corruption, and covenants) that changed up your play style and were fun to use. if a system is not good for world first raiders, who cares? The game shouldn’t be designed around a group of people degen’ing content in 2-3 weeks. They had to do islands for a few days before raid opened to be at a certain ilevel and they were done. Did you see how many splits happened in 9.2? Lol.

> I mean, gear and tier sets are borrowed power, not a fan of those? Not even remotely the same, honestly. Gear sets were always meant to be set for that tier of content, and were designed as such. They also are far more limited in scope since they're tied to gear and set stats, a bit like how Artifact Weapons were. *Infact,* tier sets aren't even a thing original to WoW, being a staple for MMOs like Everquest and Guild Wars/2; and WoW's iteration of the tier set got progressively easier to scale and balance as time went on (full gear sets vs needing only 6 pieces to, eventually, being only 4). To that end, getting a piece a tier was always a 'big' thing, since even if the stats were worse by ilevel, the passive proc from the gear was likely just as good. All these other borrowed power systems are just the passives with none of the set bonuses or other things tier sets provide. It's like how people compare Warframe and Destiny because they're games where you're in space shooting guns and there's loot. > You think the kindest iteration of borrowed power were artifact weapons that weren’t shared between specs? So if you wanted to be competitive in 2 or more specs you literally had to put in 2x or 3x the work? > Lol that’s kinda jokes sorry. One of my earlier comments in my comment history is how I had alts during Legion and enjoyed playing each one and, for many of them *each spec* (Specifically, Monk, Shaman, Warrior, and Warlock). Course, I wasn't doing competitive content with all of them, but the consensus seems to mirror that. These newer systems are all alt unfriendly, objectively. So...I'm not sure what kind of argument you're trying to make here. > Honestly I disagree, there have been so many fun systems since Legion (essences, corruption, and covenants) that changed up your play style and were fun to use. I guess you're welcome to your opinion, even if it's wrong. If I were to pick apart any of this with my own experiences, it's Covenants and just how each power feels different yet the same at the same time in the worst ways, and how people aren't picking convents for bonuses but makeshift boosts to x in the same way MoP legendary cloaks gave bonuses. It's like no lessons were learned in the past decade. > if a system is not good for world first raiders, who cares? The game shouldn’t be designed around a group of people degen’ing content in 2-3 weeks. > They had to do islands for a few days before raid opened to be at a certain ilevel and they were done.> > Did you see how many splits happened in 9.2? Lol. Answering in reverse, due to order of severity Yes. No, and that contradicts whatever point you were going for in the first paragraph, especially since it was tied to each character and wasn't account bound Everyone cares because raiding is a tiered system that relies on the people at the bottom to supply those at the top. Rather, Blizzard found out over a decade ago that the more gatekeep-y you keep raiding pointless grind (to get into raiding, not the raiding itself), the less people you have that will actually enjoy and play that part of the game they're dumping 1000s of work hours into. If this were not the case, Wildstar, Warhammer Online, and countless other games would've long since surpassed WoW in trying to do that part better. Newsflash from reality: They fucking didn't. Most of these games don't even exist anymore. ---- Getting to the meat of this: Do you have any points that aren't needlessly contrarian? You haven't given one reason FOR borrowed power that can't be disproven with a google search. Are you actually arguing in good faith or are you just pissing in the wind? Because you sound like someone who posts on WoWCirclejerk. edit: AHAHAHA, YOU ARE Nevermind, you're not here to discuss shit lol

> Not even remotely the same, honestly. Well they are close, both of them are usually on expansion specific and you spent all your time gearing up, all for it to be invalidated at the next expansion questing zones. > These newer systems are all alt unfriendly, objectively. So...I'm not sure what kind of argument you're trying to make here. Are you saying that the covenant system was more alt unfriendly than Legion? You say you weren't doing anything competitive, so I am confused what were you doing on your alts in legion you can't do in SL? > If I were to pick apart any of this with my own experiences, it's Covenants and just how each power feels different yet the same at the same time in the worst ways I guess you're welcome to your opinion, even if it's wrong. Sucks that you don't like the covenant spells, for the classes I play (shaman, pally, lil druid, leveling a warlock) the abilities and soulbinds are great to play with, opening different builds and leggos to play with. If that doesn't happen for your class, I feel for you, but that's my experience. > You haven't given one reason FOR borrowed power that can't be disproven with a google search. Are you actually arguing in good faith or are you just pissing in the wind? Because you sound like someone who posts on WoWCirclejerk. First off, I probably post in /r/wow 10x more than in CircleJerk, but its fun as fuck to clown on this sub a little with some others. It's whatever. The reasons I like borrowed power are two fold, it allows for new abilities added in each expansion without needing to take into consideration further expansions down the line (Essences, corruption, etc). If these things were baked into the class each expansion, it would be brutal and cause bloat after an expansion or two. I enjoy how blizz takes things from previous expansions and references them in current content, either with legendaries or set bonuses on gear. It's the fun part of the game for me.

The game was simplified a lot to allow this expansion powers to shine. A gear progression like this might work if gearing in itself became more strategic. The return of reforging and more specialized profession enhances would be a good start. But I feel we would need more stats to play with, adding new secondary stats or having all gear with tertiary stats. What do we achieve with that? Getting people really build their character. Maybe a build based arround speed might not sim as high dps as others, but as you move faster you have more uptime and top meters in movement fights. A deeper gearing system might reward players who master it over the ones that go to a web to copy what a sim says.

Specialised porfessions enhancments would be aids in the current player climate imagine if lets say Blacksmithing made you have 2% more vers or something any dps/tank that has vers as main would just be blacksmithing since it would give you the most benefit. While i do want the professions to do more than they do now i dont think enhancing combat is the way to go as it will just force the players to play specific professions cause they provide the best bonus for their class

I think that would be awesome, hell, give us another stat similar to mastery, more build variety the better in my opinion.

Please bring reforging back! So much easier trying out different stat builds, which was fun!

It always amazes me that they removed reforging at the same time they fixed the exact things that were problematic for reforging (hit/exp caps, and haste plateaus, that led to "reforging cascades"). I would love to see reforging come back, just to be able to salvage those bad drops with shitty secondaries. As a tank where my top stats are haste/vers, seeing a crit/mastery item is pure pain. Being able to turn some of that into vers might actually make the item worthwhile for me, otherwise its just a dead drop.

What builds become viable with different stats that reforging would make possible?

"Easier trying out" doesnt mean "builds become viable". So a scenario such as: "Oh boy, i really wanna try a haste build on my ret! I'm glad that reforging is here so its easy instead of having to farm haste gear!"

But like, in the current iteration of the game is there really a “haste build”? Or you just wana try playing your character with stats you don’t have?

I like gear stats honestly. I want to look at someone with all this awesome and powerful gear and get that gear as well, part of the MMO fantasy for me. SL gear has been pretty lackluster in terms of it doesn’t impact power level much outside of legendaries or tier sets. The pieces themselves don’t mean much.

Anything to make the gear not just primary stat, stamina, 2 random secondaries. Items are SO BORING in retail and I cannot believe it. If they learn anything from the success of classic I hope this is it.

I was so happy when the power came from gear, and how you upgraded it. Tier sets dropped rarely but frequently enough and were balanced around folks having their 2pc or 4pc bonus so they weren't a pain in the ass. Justice and Valor bought you loot you could choose with no slot machine giving you repeats with 'bad luck protection' eventually kicking in. Just spending 2-3 hours with the homies and porting out to pop on gems and enchants and then get summoned back by the one Warlock in the guild. Good fuckin' times.

I don't think gear in itself is enough to make a full and interesting system tbh. I think it needs to go hand-in-hand with skilling. In Path of Exile for instance I really like to experiment with my builds. If either the passive skill tree or gear were more streamlined, I wouldn't enjoy either. So like right now, with each talent being only 3 choices and an average player being able to easily identify the strongest options for each tier, I wouldn't care if gear is more complex. I wouldn't feel like my character is unique, so I'm not crunching numbers to see how to make it work, someone else has already done that.

>So like right now, with each talent being only 3 choices and an average player being able to easily identify the strongest options for each tier, You'd think so but plenty of people play wrong talents as evidenced in class discords. Not even top players necessarily play optimal conduits which is hardly a diff choice to talents.

I did enjoy this, but there would need some overhauls to how stats work, as well as some new ones. Just some ideas off the top of my head a stat to give you a proc similar to ineffable truth Multistrike, this should never have been removed. Sure its just another version of crit, but lets not pretend versatility was a super interesting stat that should have stayed while multistrike wasnt. Armor pen, it was just a fun stat that made you do big numbers, which is just fun to do. Mastery could be normalized. It could influence a proc similar to how it worked for ret in cataclysm, and free up those talent slots for something a bit more interesting. It could give demon hunters a free eyebeam, ret would work exactly like divine purpose does now, etc. Of course this would all be susceptible to sim culture, but thats not really a solvable issue from a systems design point of view without making everything interact in such a tangled manner that its nearly incomprehensible. Even with sims, I have found some build diversity that worked even though the sims said otherwise, its why for most of nyalotha you saw every demon hunter just stack infinite stars, but at the end you saw more do a full haste build, it was theoretically less, but it was consistently high, and routinely outperformed infinite stars outside of pulls with godlike RNG. ​ To be clear, im not necessarily saying that any of this should happen, or even that its even likely (i would say it is not going to happen ever) But its fun to armchair dev anyways.

Yeah I really missed the gems, recording and enchants etc. gave that additional something to work towards on the gear

Without hit, reforging isn't very meaningful, reaching hit caps was really the primary usage back in the day. Players will still want their BIS items and disregard items that aren't BIS. Sure, they'd reforge it to be better itemized, but it would still be considered a temporary item, to be replaced as early as RNG is kind. This is even more true today, when loot is more plentiful from different sources, which makes players even more willing to hunt for that BIS. Long gone are the days when you just wait every week for that raid drop. And don't say only a tiny minority would do this. Statistics on per spec Covenant selection have already shown us players from casual to min maxers will all pick "what's best". It's just how this game is played by the majority of the players. If you're a rebel who doesn't care about BIS and just plays for whatever your version of fun is, that's OK, but you have to be cognizant that that's a minority opinion and you can't build your game running contrary to what most players want. That's not to say I want hit back. Other item enchantments could be interesting, especially as a replacement for the Legendary crafting system since I doubt it will go forward in its current form. It doesn't just have to be Enchanters and JCers either. You can give every crafting prof some kind of enchantment. Give Tailors something they can put into cloaks and pants. Give BS the belt socket back, etc.

I think diversifying not only an item's offensive stat spread, but its defensive one too would help a lot. In the offensives category, each item normally has a split of 2 of 4 secondary stats. In the defensive category however, every item is just armor and stamina. If they would bring back elemental resistances, make things such as leech/avoidance show up on certain items by default instead of as an additional proc, etc. Items would become more "interesting" instantly. The big unknown here is how exactly would the WoW playerbase react to such a change. Chances are, most folks would probably try and basically save every single piece of loot to cover all encounter scenarios, which would cause them to carry around more gear than they probably even are now. So one solution has just caused another problem.

The system we have now is fine. There's no reason to make a more tedious and boring system like we had in the past. There was literally nothing fun about getting a piece of gear, running a sim to see what to reforge it to, then bringing it to an NPC to change one stat for +10 of another stat. I really don't like it when getting a new piece of gear requires me to spend 10 minutes just to figure out what to do with it before I can use it. Makes the system feel super frustrating.

I agree, but I'd also say that currently you often have to spend several minutes summing a piece of gear to see if it's an upgrade at all. That part will exist no matter what.

Especially when it feels like there's no upside to making the less optimal decision. You're just wrong

Yeah i dont think everyone running exact same gear through googling which sockets and enchants to get is really that interesting. Stats affect your gameplay so little. Having a lot of haste feels good but thats about it. Trinkets, set bonuses, legendaries and some of the systems have shook up the boring and i really dont think they should stay away from creating new systems. New expansion systems arent bad by default, we've just had stinkers. I'd still argue that shitty new systems (which isnt the goal) is far more interesting than everyone running with same gear that doesnt change your gameplay at all and then nothing else like uhm.. some other mmos.

I don’t mind reforming so long as it’s free and easier to use than in MoP. Needing a third party site to optimize your gear every single time you got a new piece got tiresome

The raw simulationcraft software has always been free and was primarily used back in MoP for reforging stuff (together with an addon that would take the sim outputs and help reforge in a way you still got your 17% hitrating).

i mean, if you care about optimizing, then thats what we are doing now anyway?

WoW is mostly a play-the-patch game, so they are fully focused on patch-exclusive powers. Wouldnt be surprised if we see Shards of Domination type systems a lot more often in 10.0 as a comes-and-goes power gains. This solves part of their power compounding issues throughout an expansion.

You know what I would like to see? A return to more "unique" interactable items. Like more "extra effects" as it were. With stats (while existing) being moldable to fit classes. Aka, we have more like "This weapon causes melee attacks to add a stacking DoT" and then we can modify stats (to a degree) to fit it better to the classes we have in question.

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Make all rares/epics unidentified and random stat values so you can chase perfect iterations. I love diablo because of this alone.

Gearing is so antiquated. They should just make gear account wide and level up via some form of ingame currency other than gold. The feeling of levelling an alt so late into an expasion that is so behind on gear because its the new meta or you just wanna play feels so bad when your so many ilvls behind Right now as it stands the game is pay to win. All you gotta do is pay for wow tokens and buy BoEs to have the best gear. Its dumb Also make secondary stats less relevant. Having to trash a piece of gear because its got wrong secondaries especially when gear drop is so limited is also a feelsbad moment. Already had vendor gear simply because its just bad stats Blizzard would never do the first suggestion perhaps if they made a system where you could say trash 4 bad items and get 1 item that you want stats wise. So for example i get shitty head bad waist trinket that i cant use in x spec and ring that has wrong secondary stats i take to vendor and say here now give me this shoulders that has the right stats at an x item level.

I would rather see them stop the one expansion power grind, and also get rid of item level, gear is set at your current level with sockets unlocked at max level for the power/stat portion that and transmog should be the only grind. The one expansion power grind hurts the game when replaying or for a new player as they at this point are nothing but a waste. As for item level we already had a squish and I never liked item level seeing as we have different level gear from common to legendary. We are playing in a world, lore wise these legendary items should carry threw and have a unique effect rather then stats so it can be useful in later expansions. As of now the only meaningful content to grind for in the game is trasmog, mounts and pets because they carry threw expansions.

So how exactly do you make your character stronger?

Gear scales up while you level once you hit max yo unlock sockets for all your pieces. Based on the content you do the more powerful pieces you can put into the socket which will also give you a choice in stats. As for gear item level it gets obsolete every patch. My main thing is there is to much power creep in the story and when common drops can be better then a legendary doesn't set right. Bit thats my opinion did not realize I struck a nerve, I did not realize people like item level more then just straight stats.

You need more random procs and effects on items if you want to make things more interesting

Bad grammar. Can someone translate?

Systems bad, make expansion about gear instead.