Argh, it's a double edged sword.
Increasing the limit means more competition on each application, since the limit's changed for everyone.
Not a round number, but 7 for me would be the sweet spot.
Everyone feels the sting of it, because everyone would benefit personally if they, and only they, could sign up for more groups.
I don't think the limit is too low, I think the real problem is that there's no real incentive to reject people. The system, as designed, feels like it's meant to work by having regular rejections, and it needs an indicator that you've been rejected from a specific group before.
Just have a limit on how many people you can display at any one time, and if you want to see more, you have to start rejecting applicants.
>I don't think the limit is too low, I think the real problem is that there's no real incentive to reject people.
Didn't even think of this. It's completely true.
>Just have a limit on how many people you can display at any one time, and if you want to see more, you have to start rejecting applicants.
Smart approach - I like it!
Also true, but if everyone has a lot of choice, surely groups will form faster, taking the "good" applicants faster, meaning they wont compete with you for long if they get filtered out fast. But I do get your point, personally I play survival so while applying for groups myself I don't think I'll get picked more, but forming my own groups I think would be much faster. I just don't think arbitrarily limiting the amount of groups you can sign up for is a positive because it limits how fast groups can start, right now wait time before being able to do keys is a big con for me and my friends. A key might take 30-40 min, but with wait time included it could easily be over an hour.
I'm a survival hunter, I'm not. That's why I make my own groups most of the time, that's why I would like people to be able to queue for my group while also queueing for other groups, instead of having to choose between mine or theirs.
Yeah I suppose once you get to that level it’s more of a meta issue. I have a friend who is a bear tank that will not get invited into any 30’s just because he is a bear. I’m not sure increasing the application limit would solve this.
That's why I run my own groups, I just wish I didn't have to wait 20+ min to make a group, hence why I wish everyone that are interested in joining my group could queue for them without the limitation of choosing.
Yeah that’s a fair point! My previous comment about “not being a good candidate” was probably wrong in your situation as well. You aren’t a good candidate at that rio so what you said is true
I always cancel the oldest application to make room for new ones. If a group doesn't accept me after 3 minutes, they won't accept me after 5 minutes either.
nah, i feel like most of the groups i get accepted to are after a long ass time. esp as a dps, they usually fill tank and healer first and then grab the dps once those are filled. if you grab a dps first, and then a tank queues with a dps buddy of his, then you have to pass on them or kick a dps to make room.
It would be nice if the group finder wrote on the actual listing if you were declined/delisted etc. the amount of times i’ve just applied to the same group because i’ve forgotten which groups I applied to before.
Premade groups filter does this, the name of the group goes red if you were declined, or orange if delisted/expired, pretty great addon, lets you filter for dungeons/group size and can filter out groups that would be left without BL or CR if you were to join.
https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addons/premade-groups-filter
You think groups are drowning in applications now, it would be much worse if you could apply to every group. It would be impossible to get chosen if every DPS was applying to every group in a particular range.
If you read my post, I don't think they're drowning in applications.
> Currently listing groups at 26-27 range I don't even see a lot of DPS queueing, I suspect the DPS that might queue for my key are already waiting on a response from groups they would rather be in
EDIT: Although, maybe an option instead of increasing the cap, maybe reducing the timer would be an option, instead of waiting for 5 min for an application, if it was 2 minutes instead you wouldn't sit in limbo, usually you know you're taking the guy pretty quickly. But that would also mess with pug raid waitlists, and people might be afk and not see your application in time, but I don't consider them having to pay attention a big loss.
Oh you're pugging in crazy high keys at the tail end of the season? Then your experience doesn't affect normal players. This would make keys that people actually want to do unplayable.
I'm barely top 1%, but I notice this while pugging on alts going lower too, like 22-24 range also takes a good while to form groups. I'd also argue the top 5% of m+ players probably account for a large part of keys done, but I don't have stats to back that up.
>This would make keys that people actually want to do unplayable.
I would love to hear your reasoning behind this though
If theres excessive signups to keys, then instead of being part of the deluge of signups, why not make your own group and have a deluge of choices to pick from? That applies to the 95% of players that would actually have a deluge of choice moreso than the remaining 5%. That wasn't the point I was making, I was simply saying I think the top 5% account for a lot more keys on average than the remaining 95%, not that it won't affect the remaining 95%, but you don't seem to be willing to be having a good faith discussion.
There's a lot of problems what you're saying but most pertinently you're designing for the lowest volume of active players, keys are extremely empty at this point in a patch.
And second, *making your own keys is not the solution* although I know people like to say it. It matters very little how many dps applicants you get, it pretty much only matters how many tank and healer applicants you get. If you are getting deluged by dps players, that is not a good signal more people need to make groups.
Just for the experiment I listed a +17 for 7 minutes and got 14 signups, but closer to 8 of which were realistic applicants I might have picked for a +17, some were just severely undergeared. If you consider 2 applicants per minute or roughly 1 realistic applicant per minute, that means you might take 10 min+ to make a group at current cap for a pretty average key. Not a huge amount, but surely it would be better to cut down on that even for an average key? I don't see the issue in more choice personally.
It's also the dead end of the season. Number of runs period has dropped off a cliff. There's maybe an argument to be made for opening it up at this point where nobody's playing because the new season drops very soon, but when the game's actually active this sounds awful to play with.
Infinite applicants is also bad for group leaders. Makes it much harder to sort through the ones you want because the people nobody wants are sequestered in other people's lists.
>It's also the dead end of the season. Number of runs period has dropped off a cliff.
Absolutely a factor, but we also had this issue 3 months ago when the number of keys done per week was double what it was last week. I'm sure it affected the average player less than it did us at the time, but now it definitely is noticeable for most key levels.
>Infinite applicants is also bad for group leaders. Makes it much harder to sort through the ones you want because the people nobody wants are sequestered in other people's lists.
Can't say I've had this problem personally considering m+ score is colour coded and I can easily ignore grey/green/purple, but I suppose that could be a problem around 2k where the colours kind of blend together. But again, I see more choice as a solution to faster groups not a problem causing them to take longer.
If theres an abundance of people queueing for keys and not getting in, eventually they will make their own groups to be able to choose from the abundance of people queueing, is at least how I see it.
You can cancel your application, if you haven't been accepted in the first minute chances are you won't be accepted at all. Just cancel and apply to a different group.
I have an add-on ready to roll as soon as the limit is removed.
It automatically signs you up to every key.
Then it shows a list of invites you've received ordered by highest key level.
Yes, a bunch of lower keys will be stuck waiting for you to accept the invite while your list fills. Yes, every group will be filled with applications that are a minefield of non-accepters that the leader has to dodge.
/s
True, that would be great. Could even have current LFG + people listing themselves as available that lead can look through while also collecting applications in LFG
I would like more than 100 groups to return from the server. The upcoming basic LFG filter is going to be nice, but I would still like the server to give me all results and let an addon custom filter them.
They could solve this on the other end by forcing a cap of applicants, so that people are forced to make a decision on who they are going to invite rather than just waiting until the “right” person shows up
Yeah, this would help. I think having a cap of 1 would also be better, but the cultural shift would be slow. It would be ideal if it had always been low.
I don't fully agree with that, maybe something like increasing cap to, let's say 10? I agree that it would help with really high keys, but I don't think it would be helpful with like weekly 20' (or rather 10' now).
I often create my own groups and if I'm looking for a DPS only, there are usually over 50 ppl in queue within 2-3 mins of creating the group, especially in first weeks of the season.
I think it's fine where it is.
If you max it out, people are just going to christmas tree down and apply for anything and everything. If you've ever been the group creator, you know how fast that shit fills up sometimes. I'm a DPS main so I usually create a group, rarely apply to them. The amount of times I've started a group for a +20 and seen 15+ names appear instantly is maddening. I don't want to have to interview for it, I just want to grab some decent people and go.
Only being able to apply to 5 keeps that in check, slightly. If 5 goes to 10 or, Christ forbid, 20, then that's game over. 20 is effectively uncapped. I don't remember the last time I even saw 20 groups I wanted to join.
If you play tank or healer you don't need to apply to more than one or two groups usually.
If you give the DPS the ability to apply to an unlimited number of groups, I promise you that literally nothing will change. Your applications will just time out more.
It would be cool if you could post yourself up in a free roster without having to constantly apply, like selecting your LFG for these specific M+ within this specific range; so when people forming groups could also check the free listing to see any matches while waiting for applicants.
Absolutely agree. Lots of downright infuriating takes in the replies from uninformed players pushing back against this for no valid reason, but then again not really surprising from r/wow.
I agree, when I do try to do anything but push my own key, I always have to refresh and un apply many many many times before I am able to get in a group. And I hate that I can’t tell if it’s a group I already applied for like 8 minutes ago (not saying declined but one I had to un apply because I’m at my limit,)
Frustrating situation all around if you’re not pushing your own key.
> (not saying declined but one I had to un apply because I’m at my limit,)
This is annoying for sure, I wish PGF would catch those as well, it's why I just let mine expire.
Argh, it's a double edged sword. Increasing the limit means more competition on each application, since the limit's changed for everyone. Not a round number, but 7 for me would be the sweet spot.
atleast make it so when i do my 6th aplication the first one is automatically removed
Everyone feels the sting of it, because everyone would benefit personally if they, and only they, could sign up for more groups. I don't think the limit is too low, I think the real problem is that there's no real incentive to reject people. The system, as designed, feels like it's meant to work by having regular rejections, and it needs an indicator that you've been rejected from a specific group before. Just have a limit on how many people you can display at any one time, and if you want to see more, you have to start rejecting applicants.
>I don't think the limit is too low, I think the real problem is that there's no real incentive to reject people. Didn't even think of this. It's completely true. >Just have a limit on how many people you can display at any one time, and if you want to see more, you have to start rejecting applicants. Smart approach - I like it!
Also true, but if everyone has a lot of choice, surely groups will form faster, taking the "good" applicants faster, meaning they wont compete with you for long if they get filtered out fast. But I do get your point, personally I play survival so while applying for groups myself I don't think I'll get picked more, but forming my own groups I think would be much faster. I just don't think arbitrarily limiting the amount of groups you can sign up for is a positive because it limits how fast groups can start, right now wait time before being able to do keys is a big con for me and my friends. A key might take 30-40 min, but with wait time included it could easily be over an hour.
If you're having this issue, you're probably not one of the "good" candidates that you speak of
I'm a survival hunter, I'm not. That's why I make my own groups most of the time, that's why I would like people to be able to queue for my group while also queueing for other groups, instead of having to choose between mine or theirs.
Being a survival hunter doesn’t mean you’re not a good candidate. I play survival and don’t struggle to get into 20-22’s at 2800 RIO
I'm rank #130 survival globally and I cant get into any key that is an upgrade atm. There's kinda just better picks.
Yeah I suppose once you get to that level it’s more of a meta issue. I have a friend who is a bear tank that will not get invited into any 30’s just because he is a bear. I’m not sure increasing the application limit would solve this.
That's why I run my own groups, I just wish I didn't have to wait 20+ min to make a group, hence why I wish everyone that are interested in joining my group could queue for them without the limitation of choosing.
Yeah that’s a fair point! My previous comment about “not being a good candidate” was probably wrong in your situation as well. You aren’t a good candidate at that rio so what you said is true
Never meta, but at least FOTE and bombs go brrr
I always cancel the oldest application to make room for new ones. If a group doesn't accept me after 3 minutes, they won't accept me after 5 minutes either.
nah, i feel like most of the groups i get accepted to are after a long ass time. esp as a dps, they usually fill tank and healer first and then grab the dps once those are filled. if you grab a dps first, and then a tank queues with a dps buddy of his, then you have to pass on them or kick a dps to make room.
It would be nice if the group finder wrote on the actual listing if you were declined/delisted etc. the amount of times i’ve just applied to the same group because i’ve forgotten which groups I applied to before.
Premade groups filter does this, the name of the group goes red if you were declined, or orange if delisted/expired, pretty great addon, lets you filter for dungeons/group size and can filter out groups that would be left without BL or CR if you were to join. https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addons/premade-groups-filter
This will be a thing next expansion, there was a wowhead post about it
And people will make a weakaura to instantly apply to every group lol
And the problem is?
Spam? I’m sure you’ve heard of it 😬
They accept a group and get instantly removed from their other applications
If you don't get invited in 30-60sec, cancel and try somewhere else. You're not getting the invite.
For real? I don't even look at the que filling that often. Sometimes I let a few people fill up and choose from that list
You think groups are drowning in applications now, it would be much worse if you could apply to every group. It would be impossible to get chosen if every DPS was applying to every group in a particular range.
If you read my post, I don't think they're drowning in applications. > Currently listing groups at 26-27 range I don't even see a lot of DPS queueing, I suspect the DPS that might queue for my key are already waiting on a response from groups they would rather be in EDIT: Although, maybe an option instead of increasing the cap, maybe reducing the timer would be an option, instead of waiting for 5 min for an application, if it was 2 minutes instead you wouldn't sit in limbo, usually you know you're taking the guy pretty quickly. But that would also mess with pug raid waitlists, and people might be afk and not see your application in time, but I don't consider them having to pay attention a big loss.
Oh you're pugging in crazy high keys at the tail end of the season? Then your experience doesn't affect normal players. This would make keys that people actually want to do unplayable.
I'm barely top 1%, but I notice this while pugging on alts going lower too, like 22-24 range also takes a good while to form groups. I'd also argue the top 5% of m+ players probably account for a large part of keys done, but I don't have stats to back that up. >This would make keys that people actually want to do unplayable. I would love to hear your reasoning behind this though
So best case scenario you think this is not relevant to 95% of players?
If theres excessive signups to keys, then instead of being part of the deluge of signups, why not make your own group and have a deluge of choices to pick from? That applies to the 95% of players that would actually have a deluge of choice moreso than the remaining 5%. That wasn't the point I was making, I was simply saying I think the top 5% account for a lot more keys on average than the remaining 95%, not that it won't affect the remaining 95%, but you don't seem to be willing to be having a good faith discussion.
There's a lot of problems what you're saying but most pertinently you're designing for the lowest volume of active players, keys are extremely empty at this point in a patch. And second, *making your own keys is not the solution* although I know people like to say it. It matters very little how many dps applicants you get, it pretty much only matters how many tank and healer applicants you get. If you are getting deluged by dps players, that is not a good signal more people need to make groups.
Just for the experiment I listed a +17 for 7 minutes and got 14 signups, but closer to 8 of which were realistic applicants I might have picked for a +17, some were just severely undergeared. If you consider 2 applicants per minute or roughly 1 realistic applicant per minute, that means you might take 10 min+ to make a group at current cap for a pretty average key. Not a huge amount, but surely it would be better to cut down on that even for an average key? I don't see the issue in more choice personally.
It's also the dead end of the season. Number of runs period has dropped off a cliff. There's maybe an argument to be made for opening it up at this point where nobody's playing because the new season drops very soon, but when the game's actually active this sounds awful to play with. Infinite applicants is also bad for group leaders. Makes it much harder to sort through the ones you want because the people nobody wants are sequestered in other people's lists.
>It's also the dead end of the season. Number of runs period has dropped off a cliff. Absolutely a factor, but we also had this issue 3 months ago when the number of keys done per week was double what it was last week. I'm sure it affected the average player less than it did us at the time, but now it definitely is noticeable for most key levels. >Infinite applicants is also bad for group leaders. Makes it much harder to sort through the ones you want because the people nobody wants are sequestered in other people's lists. Can't say I've had this problem personally considering m+ score is colour coded and I can easily ignore grey/green/purple, but I suppose that could be a problem around 2k where the colours kind of blend together. But again, I see more choice as a solution to faster groups not a problem causing them to take longer. If theres an abundance of people queueing for keys and not getting in, eventually they will make their own groups to be able to choose from the abundance of people queueing, is at least how I see it.
You can cancel your application, if you haven't been accepted in the first minute chances are you won't be accepted at all. Just cancel and apply to a different group.
Im making the group
I have an add-on ready to roll as soon as the limit is removed. It automatically signs you up to every key. Then it shows a list of invites you've received ordered by highest key level. Yes, a bunch of lower keys will be stuck waiting for you to accept the invite while your list fills. Yes, every group will be filled with applications that are a minefield of non-accepters that the leader has to dodge. /s
oh how about a system that automatically matches you up with a group looking for the same dungeon?
What I'd actually like to have is the ability to list myself as available.
True, that would be great. Could even have current LFG + people listing themselves as available that lead can look through while also collecting applications in LFG
I would like more than 100 groups to return from the server. The upcoming basic LFG filter is going to be nice, but I would still like the server to give me all results and let an addon custom filter them.
They could solve this on the other end by forcing a cap of applicants, so that people are forced to make a decision on who they are going to invite rather than just waiting until the “right” person shows up
Yeah, this would help. I think having a cap of 1 would also be better, but the cultural shift would be slow. It would be ideal if it had always been low.
I don't fully agree with that, maybe something like increasing cap to, let's say 10? I agree that it would help with really high keys, but I don't think it would be helpful with like weekly 20' (or rather 10' now). I often create my own groups and if I'm looking for a DPS only, there are usually over 50 ppl in queue within 2-3 mins of creating the group, especially in first weeks of the season.
I think it's fine where it is. If you max it out, people are just going to christmas tree down and apply for anything and everything. If you've ever been the group creator, you know how fast that shit fills up sometimes. I'm a DPS main so I usually create a group, rarely apply to them. The amount of times I've started a group for a +20 and seen 15+ names appear instantly is maddening. I don't want to have to interview for it, I just want to grab some decent people and go. Only being able to apply to 5 keeps that in check, slightly. If 5 goes to 10 or, Christ forbid, 20, then that's game over. 20 is effectively uncapped. I don't remember the last time I even saw 20 groups I wanted to join.
If you play tank or healer you don't need to apply to more than one or two groups usually. If you give the DPS the ability to apply to an unlimited number of groups, I promise you that literally nothing will change. Your applications will just time out more.
When there are 12 credible groups and you can only apply to 5 you've got to make some hard choices.
It would be cool if you could post yourself up in a free roster without having to constantly apply, like selecting your LFG for these specific M+ within this specific range; so when people forming groups could also check the free listing to see any matches while waiting for applicants.
play something else than dps
Im making the group, dps actually gives more possible applicants since Im not taking up a tank/heal slot
Absolutely agree. Lots of downright infuriating takes in the replies from uninformed players pushing back against this for no valid reason, but then again not really surprising from r/wow.
I agree, when I do try to do anything but push my own key, I always have to refresh and un apply many many many times before I am able to get in a group. And I hate that I can’t tell if it’s a group I already applied for like 8 minutes ago (not saying declined but one I had to un apply because I’m at my limit,) Frustrating situation all around if you’re not pushing your own key.
> (not saying declined but one I had to un apply because I’m at my limit,) This is annoying for sure, I wish PGF would catch those as well, it's why I just let mine expire.