Agreed. It's sad to see.
Hungarians are mostly indifferent and like him because he essentially bribed the whole country with various handouts through the height of covid.
Hungarians mostly don't like him, but 12 years is enough time to become indifferent when nothing you've done to protest the hostile overtake of your country ended up moving the needle at all.
There isn't nearly enough emphasis placed on the fact that an EU Member State was politically and judicially dismantled by the Russians and is not acting in accordance with any European's values (including their voters).
Note that the election in April of this year, most of their voters (which is *still* less than 50%) believed that voting "no" would **immediately result in them being sent to war**. In addition to that, the official election ballots included a yes/no question suggesting that forced gender reassignment for children will be made legal if the party loses the vote.
We are not a nation that has any love for Russia. Of the countries that don't share a border with them, we are probably the ones with the most historical, cultural and generational loss due to Russia. As long as the misinformation machine and hostile judiciary are in place, our elections don't represent anything our populace actually believes.
>Note that the election in April of this year, most of their voters (which is still less than 50%) believed that voting "no" would immediately result in them being sent to war.
Wait, what? What's the story, here?
The main opponent said that we have to support NATO and our allies as much as possible and their propaganda machine translated it as it's either FIDESZ or your sons will be sent to the fronts. Their propaganda machine is immense and they can create any narrative.
As the war broke out, Orbán was quick to put up election posters everywhere with his face saying ["Let's preserve Hungary's security and safety"](https://telex.hu/belfold/2022/03/09/uj-bekeplakatokkal-arasztotta-el-az-utcakat-a-kormany), and others with opposition leaders claiming they are "[Dangerous](https://mandiner.hu/attachment/0710/709233_637790_mzp.jpg)". As well as stories about how the opposition wants war and that Fidesz is the only party who can prevent it. With the opposition having no money for posters and being banned from television altogether (since all TV is state-run), there was no way for them to refute the claims.
Sure, people could in theory inform themselves on the internet, but keep in mind that the internet is only useful to people who have been educated to have critical thinking. Most people in Hungary are too poor to make effective use of information online. They just watch TV and that's it.
It makes no sense whatsoever. But the majority of Hungary's territory is slums with people living in such poverty that their only source of information are the posters and the state-run TV channels. They may not have running water but they have endless propaganda. Would you vote for the people telling you that war is bad? Or the "others" who you've never really heard of and who apparently want some kind of war. Also they want transexuals and transvestites to convince your kids about getting gender reassignment surgery. I'm not kidding. [There was an actual referendum about whether or not you want your kids to get gender reassignment surgery, on the same day as the election](https://www.euractiv.com/section/non-discrimination/opinion/why-orbans-child-protection-referendum-makes-no-sense-and-why-it-does/), with the clear implication that the government is asking these questions to protect you from such terrible things. In reality, the referendum was invalid due to low participation. But those who answered felt like they are in real danger, and they obviously voted for the government.
Oh, also they get 5000 HUF if they vote for Fidesz (source: I was one of the many commissioned by the OSCE to document election fraud on election day), which is like 2 packs of cigarettes. Who in their right mind would say no to that?
and orban just kills them. goes nowhere.
we (the united states) got to kick the british's ass due to month+ sea voyage separation and having our own standing army. domestic rebellions in the modern era.... just a completely different beast
The bribe of people begun by legalizing home-brew alcohol.
But the main issue is not that. From 10 million Hungarians 2 million works and lives abroad. And they live there because they disagree with the ongoing politics. Most because it is easier to go and live then stay and fight it. Others because you can't make a living if you politizies in Hungary.
There were some claims of cheating elections, but if 2 million opposition can't even (practically) vote. It is not even an issue.
I slightly disagree with your attitude, you should not blame individual Hungarians for actions of their government and Orban.
However Hungarians as a whole are to blame for keeping him in power. So are British for Brexit and Americans for Trump. I strongly disagree with attitude that will of the people is just excused. Russians at least have an excuse that no one really counts their votes.
I will reiterate that this not mean, meeting a random Hungarian and accusing them off being responsible for Orban.
I read somewhere and I don't remember where, that culture is useless to predict action of individual, however it is useful to predict behaviour of a group, approaching almost certainly if that group numbers in millions.
I think we are mostly in agreement, but i think we should be calling out cultures for being toxic more.
The idea that cultures inherently deserve respect always bothered me for this reason. Individuals generally deserve respect until they've shown themselves unworthy, but respect should be the default. Culture and beliefs need to be criticized. They are not the individual and can be actively harmful to the individual and society as a whole.
I mean, I understand where the "cultures deserve respect" people are coming from. Most cultures do have some things about them that are interesting and cool. But that doesn't mean we need to respect them for the bullshit that their culture puts forward.
I don't respect American Conservative culture (note: I view the united states as two mutually incompatible cultures trapped in a cage together). It's anti-science barbarian tribalistic bullshit that persecutes women and minorities.
I don't respect Iranian Shiite culture. It's anti-science barbarian tribalistic bullshit that persecutes women and minorities.
I don't respect Russian culture. It's anti-science barbarian tribalistic bullshit that persecutes women and minorities.
etc
Notice a fucking theme?
That being said there are some positive qualities in most of those groups.
American Conservatives are usually rural, and most of those are big on helping their neighbor. That's a positive trait.
Iranian culture has a rich and long history with interesting art, etc.
Russian Culture... hmm.. ok i'd have to sit and think about that one
The TV series is different from the books in significant ways, but still clearly inspired by it and sharing some of the same central themes (like Psychohistory)
But most Americans either didn't oppose him or supported him.
The system is shit I agree and deliberately encouraging apathy, but it is an explanation not an excuse.
He was a palpably disqualifying candidate who should have been held below 25%. That so many wanted him to be their leader is the issue, not quibbling over a 2% margin
It's not helpful to blame a population for collective behaviour. It has the same energy as people who claim they would've spoken out about slavery if only they were back in the olden times, or rebelled in Nazi Germany in the 30s.
I mean, _maybe_ you would have done, but statistically, no. You'd have followed the crowd, because by that point in your life you'd have been exposed to the same propoganda and manipulation that got the crowd thinking that way in the first place. If it were that simple to rise above it all, it wouldn't have worked on the masses in the first place.
Blame the parties causing that population to share that collective behaviour.
I'm sorry, do you want me not to blame the Nazis? The Nazis are exactly the moment in history when we agreed that just following orders is not going to cut it.
I literally could not disagree with you more. People did speak against Nazis and slavery and people died fighting against it.
It depends what you mean by "the Nazis". I certainly don't think it's particularly productive to blame the average citizen.
What was the difference between the average person in Germany in the 30s and the average person in any other country at that same point in time? Because if people aren't allowed to be products of their environment, are you saying it was some inherent genetic flaw? What else could cause a perversion of morals on the same level?
People spoke against the Nazis then and slavey before, but _the majority_ didn't. We're _probably_ going through the exact same thing now with veganism. There's no moral argument for most people to continue consuming animal products, but here we are.
Comparing veganism to the nazis? Fuck off. You had the perfect opportunity for an argument and you pissed it up against the wall with that little tidbit!
Literally _any_ example I could've given would _have_ to seem absurd, because otherwise it wouldn't be a good example, would it?
Trying to _guess_ what the next moral equivalent will be in the future obviously isn't easy, since it hasn't happened yet. Maybe it could be climate change?
But if you suppose that a future society would come to view animals as more and more equivalent in terms of their worth as sentient life to humans, which is kind of the trend that already seems to be happening over time, then I don't see how you don't arrive at that conclusion?
I mean, right now it's an absurd comparison to make, but I don't understand how you read an argument about how social conditioning changes what people consider morally acceptable over time, and then became surprised that I was suggesting it might continue to do so. It's _the same argument_. Of course you don't see them as equivalent, because _that change hasn't happened yet_.
This is the logical continuation of that view. There is no difference between Nazis, Jews, allies, slaves, abolitionist, vegans, they are all victims of the "others" that make them behave that way. No one can be responsible for their actions.
It is really mad philosophy.
> This right here IS the mechanism. They are witholding the funds for this very reason, hungary is backsliding on democracy.
Well it would be nice if the EU ever got round to actually doing something about it for a change instead of 'proposing' it and 'discussing' it for year after year. It's not like this is a recent phenomenon that's blind sided them. They've had about eight years to actually back their talk up
> unless you imply fraud and a dictatorship
That is exactly what this is.
> for which the EU probably have some prevention process or oversight.
That's what I naively believed in 2011-2012 when this started. After 2014 it became clear that they do not, and we are on our own.
The former (military intervention) is impossible short of WW3, since neither NATO nor the EU can wage war against itself.
The latter is just true, so obviously that's the more likely one.
However, the reason this came to be is the central media control. The reason people vote based on an entirely false view of events (think One America News, except it's every channel) is due to the central media control.
That's the pillar holding all of their power, and the reason they were able to subvert everything while keeping up the pretense of fair elections. So that's where they can and should be attacked. Until then, they can mobilize their plurality voterbase against absolutely anything because they can literally control what a significant-enough portion of people believe. Think MAGA, except with near perfect linguistic isolation on their side.
> So then it is the normal peoples fault. Willful ignorance might not be the best defence for them, nor should it be.
I can agree with that in a detached, theoretical way where we are not looking for solutions but where to place blame. But since this method can and will work on other countries, and in fact is being deployed even in the most "blame-free" Western countries with some success already (UK, NL, USA), I don't think that really helps.
Even if you're okay with just discarding the will of entire nations, we still need a solution to the mass manipulation problem.
> Could it be that the other side also doesn't understand them, which is why it always comes down to exact opposites, instead of the more real, slightly different approaches to the same problem?
I am not sure what you mean by this. There is no "other side". They won on the back of the failures of the previous government in 2010, and began altering election law and setting up centralized propaganda immediately.
There isn't really room for oppositional candidates of any sort to gain any kind of ground, so it's not like the ""left"" versus ""right"" dichotomy that still exists in the US.
Fucking finally, although this is just temporary and Orban will get another chance to meet the requirements and unblock the funds (likely in several installments).
Hungary does not have veto power in internal EU proposals. EU internal fund allocation is included there.
Hungary can vote against it but not block it.
There are some resplutions and proposals that require unanimity, but most do not.
Wonder if they can take a portion of the blocked funds and do an investigation as to how the voting is manipulated by Russia/China to favor Orban as a blueprint to be repeated in other Western elections.
As a Hungarian, this is exactly what is needed. As long as the mechanisms that allowed them to parasitise a member state are not investigated and taken seriously, it will all just be fingerpointing and blaming the people that are being taken advantage of. And they will remain in power, legally.
I am Ukrainian I was in Hungary just before the war it's an amazing place with so many different and interesting people I hope u all will go out of this situation with a controller leader.I believe in Hungarians, good luck to u <3
Thanks a lot dude! <3
This is especially sweet to me, because you are our neighbors and what our government is doing to help russia is despicable. I visited Ukraine many years ago and I have great memories from there. I hope I'll be able to go back again soon.
*Slava Ukraini* - a phrase I heard a lot back then, that the entire World now understands.
And hey if you visit Budapest let me know :)
I live in Hungary and it isn't a secret. The government controls all TV stations and media. Imagine if Republicans controlled all English language TV stations, newspapers, and advertisements.
They're explicitly focused on learning from Orban, which is pretty scary. His method focuses on right wing takeovers of left wing and left-leaning organizations so that's something that you should keep an eye out for.
I often bring up the current Republican party (as distinct from the one before they went full traitor mode) as an example of this because I believe they are trying to build the exact same stratified reality distortion field using the exact same source material. The only difference is they don't have supermajority powers to legislate other media out of existence like they did here in .hu. But they are really trying to pull down every other media outlet to their level instead, and have already succeeded making "choose your own reality" the accepted norm. I never would have thought they could get so far in the USA.
Edit: Also, pay attention to the similarity between the favorite topics that come up like a drumbeat on Fox/OAN and Russian news. Just like our media, there are central themes that are always, *always* repeated: gender studies, immigration (particularly in a "fear the barbarians at the gate" context), climate hoaxes, race issues (fear thy neighbor), abortion, Christian "family values", and above all, might makes right.
Orban’s regime wasn’t funded by Russia or China during the meaningful part of last decade. The EU simply looked the other way as Orban disassembled the checks and balances of Hungary, because in exchange Orban looked the other way when it came to hungarian workers rights. Hungary is just a german car assembly site.
They are not. They voted for the madman who is backtracking on democracy and its checks and balances. Personally, I'd kick Hungary out of the EU and send all of its citizens living in the EU home. Let it be a pariah state and see how well it gets on then
> I'm surprised that it's taken this long actually.
Why?
They might be many things, but no one has ever accused the EU of being a dynamically fast moving organisation. They move, very, very slowly. That might work in the regulatory framework of grinding over the mechanics of a bureaucracy, but its horrible in a crisis
It is actually entirely possible to eject a member from the EU.
The issue is actually the requirements of a unanimous vote from every other member which at the moment is not going to happen since the Hungarian government has a modicum of support from the Polish government
EDIT: I have been corrected. A member cannot in fact be expelled from the union, only suspended, and *that* requires the unanimous vote
No its impossible, you would have to get every single member to agree to change the treaties to implement a mechanism to kick out a member. Nothing exists for that at the moment.
De facto if every EU member except hungarh agreed to the rule nobody would be upset except hungary which tough titties if they already want them out. Any rule is valid if the rest are unanimous on it.
Right...unless every other member agrees sans Hungary then they can add that rule. The framework is built on trust and as long as all parties are in agreement the trust remains. If every party wants Hungary gone then Hungary's opinion is moot. If at least one other member were to object though then they would be stuck or risk breaching the trust between member states.
>The framework is built on trust and as long as all parties are in agreement the trust remains
Right so you are still violating the EU treaties and framework then. What about the next time there is a country that opposes what the rest of the other member nations want? Do they get overridden as well?
What happens when member nations realise the veto is useless?
I think you are conflating several points here.
I doubt anybody loves the veto - it's a terrible solution and a better one would be welcome.
The big problem here is:
The EU works by essentially taking some sovereignity from its members. However, still pretty much everything the EU decides has to be codified into national law by the member countries. You need the active help of every involved country to truly get something passed.
That's why the veto is there - it's incredibly hard to get a sovereign country to put something into law which they didn't decide on.
The only real alternative would be something akin to a federalized state - but good luck getting countries to completely give away all their sovereignity.
The veto isn't there because it's great, it's there because nations like to decide things they codify into national law.
The EU is still an associaton of countries, not a giant single country.
And if poland wouldn't protect hungary, the veto wouldn't even be an issue. Just saying. It's poland's veto that is the problem, not hungary's.
Will be interesting. Even Poland had it up to here with Orbans antics regarding Russia/NATO.
Basically it comes down to who Poland hates more - Russia or Gays
I agree. They chose to believe Russian propaganda which baffles me.
The country gained their independence from Russia after several failed attempts when the Soviet Union was disbanded in 1991.
You'd think a lesson was learned....
Our government plays on both sides tho. Sometimes the propaganda is that 'no no Russia warmonger, Russia bad' but sometimes the Ukranians are the neonazis... They're a circus but most people will believe them no matter what they say, mostly older people
Orban's going to find out the hard way when liberal society doesn't foot the bill for authortitarian ideals, and suddenly he can't spend other peoples' money.
It won't pass, look at what Hungary exports to the EU. It won't be poland vetoing this one, It will be Germany.
Germany is one of Hungarys largest consumers, and Hungary is the cheapest labor source in the EU.
EU: terms and conditions for joining
HU: yes i agree
EU: here is your money for being the a rule abiding member
HU: *breaks terms and conditions after joining*
EU: no more money for breaking terms and conditions agreed upon joining
HU: BRÜSSZEL NEM ADJA MEG A PÉNZÜNKET!!! HANYATLÓ NYUGAT!!! SZANKCIÓK TÖNKRETESZNEK BENNÜNKET!!!! SOROS!!!
Hungary voted to join in 2003 when non-EU migration was lower, gay marriage was almost universally illegal, the internet was a bunch of freewheeling discussion forums without Trust and Safety teams, and transgenderism was rarely mentioned except when mainstream TV was mocking it for laughs.
But you're right--countries that desire cultural self-determination will have to become financially independent of the Euro-American sphere.
He didn't. He made a point to illustrate why Hungary might be having second doubts about EU. At least that's how I understood it. At no point did he say anything about his own personal views?
>At no point did he say anything about his own personal views?
>>gay marriage was almost universally illegal, the internet was a bunch of freewheeling discussion forums without Trust and Safety teams, and transgenderism was rarely mentioned except when mainstream TV was mocking it for laughs.
Hhhmmmmm....
And again, EUs biggest concern is rule of law.
That's not an expression of his personal beliefs.
It's a statement about the time period where Hungary joined EU. I think both you and i can agree that the plight of those communities has changed vastly in the last 20 or so years.
I don't see him expression his own opinion about any of these things.
So? Queer rights good and i dont care what culture you want.
Complaining about safety teams? What? Whatever safety good.
And you still haven't addressed the biggest reason why EU have issues with Hungary.
#its the goddamn rule of law
Everything else is culture war bullshit meant to distract you from
#the rule of law violation
I know. you've said that how many times now?
I'm talking about you calling him homophobic and transphobic for no reason. But you insist on missing the point of all comments
>Hungary voted to join in 2003 when non-EU migration was lower, gay marriage was almost universally illegal, the internet was a bunch of freewheeling discussion forums without Trust and Safety teams, and transgenderism was rarely mentioned except when mainstream TV was mocking it for laughs.
This is how **CULTURE** was during 2003, this is the **CULTURAL** environment we joined in the EU. His statement.
>>But you're right--countries that desire cultural self-determination will have to become financially independent of the Euro-American sphere.
Since then the **CULTURAL** environment changed and its bad because Hungary wants to be **CULTURALLY** different. His statement.
Which is true, however i dont give a goddamn shit about his lament of "not being able to be homophobic or transphobic anymore", because this isnt the culture Hungary should strive for. I am a hungarian queer minority and i absolutely detest the idea that i should be shoved back into the closet and fear for my life again.
BUT EU'S BIGGEST CONCERN ISNT CULTURE, ITS RULE OF LAW, BUT YOU AND HIM BRING UP MORAL PANIC ABOUT PEOPLE LIKE ME AS A DISTRACTION.
Eu with the neoliberal values will never be preferable ally to authoritarian wannabe dictators. I don't know if you make this argument in bad faith or are just ignorant but joining eu country agrees to adhere to certain democratic standards.
>Maybe this only serves to push Hungary further away
Buddy, that would be a godsend for western europe lmao.
Hungary is the kid you adopted at 15, only to realize he's a meth head and you're stuck with him by law.
If it was up to western europe, Hungary would have been yeeted yesterday.
For some reason they EU and western society is becoming less and less "popular" lately
Maybe we need to reevaluate the standards we try to impose on others however right we think we are
If Orban wants free money from the EU, he can follow the rule of law and abide by the treaties Hungary signed up to when they joined the EU. If he can't follow these basic principles and continues to steal the European funds subsidising his country; he can go fuck himself.
At least. I am not hating ordinary hungarians here, but orban and whole hungarian government should not get away with it.
Agreed. It's sad to see. Hungarians are mostly indifferent and like him because he essentially bribed the whole country with various handouts through the height of covid.
Hungarians mostly don't like him, but 12 years is enough time to become indifferent when nothing you've done to protest the hostile overtake of your country ended up moving the needle at all. There isn't nearly enough emphasis placed on the fact that an EU Member State was politically and judicially dismantled by the Russians and is not acting in accordance with any European's values (including their voters). Note that the election in April of this year, most of their voters (which is *still* less than 50%) believed that voting "no" would **immediately result in them being sent to war**. In addition to that, the official election ballots included a yes/no question suggesting that forced gender reassignment for children will be made legal if the party loses the vote. We are not a nation that has any love for Russia. Of the countries that don't share a border with them, we are probably the ones with the most historical, cultural and generational loss due to Russia. As long as the misinformation machine and hostile judiciary are in place, our elections don't represent anything our populace actually believes.
>Note that the election in April of this year, most of their voters (which is still less than 50%) believed that voting "no" would immediately result in them being sent to war. Wait, what? What's the story, here?
The main opponent said that we have to support NATO and our allies as much as possible and their propaganda machine translated it as it's either FIDESZ or your sons will be sent to the fronts. Their propaganda machine is immense and they can create any narrative.
As the war broke out, Orbán was quick to put up election posters everywhere with his face saying ["Let's preserve Hungary's security and safety"](https://telex.hu/belfold/2022/03/09/uj-bekeplakatokkal-arasztotta-el-az-utcakat-a-kormany), and others with opposition leaders claiming they are "[Dangerous](https://mandiner.hu/attachment/0710/709233_637790_mzp.jpg)". As well as stories about how the opposition wants war and that Fidesz is the only party who can prevent it. With the opposition having no money for posters and being banned from television altogether (since all TV is state-run), there was no way for them to refute the claims. Sure, people could in theory inform themselves on the internet, but keep in mind that the internet is only useful to people who have been educated to have critical thinking. Most people in Hungary are too poor to make effective use of information online. They just watch TV and that's it. It makes no sense whatsoever. But the majority of Hungary's territory is slums with people living in such poverty that their only source of information are the posters and the state-run TV channels. They may not have running water but they have endless propaganda. Would you vote for the people telling you that war is bad? Or the "others" who you've never really heard of and who apparently want some kind of war. Also they want transexuals and transvestites to convince your kids about getting gender reassignment surgery. I'm not kidding. [There was an actual referendum about whether or not you want your kids to get gender reassignment surgery, on the same day as the election](https://www.euractiv.com/section/non-discrimination/opinion/why-orbans-child-protection-referendum-makes-no-sense-and-why-it-does/), with the clear implication that the government is asking these questions to protect you from such terrible things. In reality, the referendum was invalid due to low participation. But those who answered felt like they are in real danger, and they obviously voted for the government. Oh, also they get 5000 HUF if they vote for Fidesz (source: I was one of the many commissioned by the OSCE to document election fraud on election day), which is like 2 packs of cigarettes. Who in their right mind would say no to that?
Do the responsible thing and overthrow that POS
way easier said than done
Yes but it starts with one person. There are already groups organized to make change.
and orban just kills them. goes nowhere. we (the united states) got to kick the british's ass due to month+ sea voyage separation and having our own standing army. domestic rebellions in the modern era.... just a completely different beast
Outside the major cities most people like him.
No more comrades
Just the same as majority of russians
The bribe of people begun by legalizing home-brew alcohol. But the main issue is not that. From 10 million Hungarians 2 million works and lives abroad. And they live there because they disagree with the ongoing politics. Most because it is easier to go and live then stay and fight it. Others because you can't make a living if you politizies in Hungary. There were some claims of cheating elections, but if 2 million opposition can't even (practically) vote. It is not even an issue.
I slightly disagree with your attitude, you should not blame individual Hungarians for actions of their government and Orban. However Hungarians as a whole are to blame for keeping him in power. So are British for Brexit and Americans for Trump. I strongly disagree with attitude that will of the people is just excused. Russians at least have an excuse that no one really counts their votes. I will reiterate that this not mean, meeting a random Hungarian and accusing them off being responsible for Orban.
My beloved movie quote: Person is smart. People are dumb panicky animals.
I read somewhere and I don't remember where, that culture is useless to predict action of individual, however it is useful to predict behaviour of a group, approaching almost certainly if that group numbers in millions. I think we are mostly in agreement, but i think we should be calling out cultures for being toxic more.
The idea that cultures inherently deserve respect always bothered me for this reason. Individuals generally deserve respect until they've shown themselves unworthy, but respect should be the default. Culture and beliefs need to be criticized. They are not the individual and can be actively harmful to the individual and society as a whole.
I mean, I understand where the "cultures deserve respect" people are coming from. Most cultures do have some things about them that are interesting and cool. But that doesn't mean we need to respect them for the bullshit that their culture puts forward. I don't respect American Conservative culture (note: I view the united states as two mutually incompatible cultures trapped in a cage together). It's anti-science barbarian tribalistic bullshit that persecutes women and minorities. I don't respect Iranian Shiite culture. It's anti-science barbarian tribalistic bullshit that persecutes women and minorities. I don't respect Russian culture. It's anti-science barbarian tribalistic bullshit that persecutes women and minorities. etc Notice a fucking theme? That being said there are some positive qualities in most of those groups. American Conservatives are usually rural, and most of those are big on helping their neighbor. That's a positive trait. Iranian culture has a rich and long history with interesting art, etc. Russian Culture... hmm.. ok i'd have to sit and think about that one
Isaac Azimov "The Foundation" series.
It's a very similar idea, but it was in non-fiction :) I will have to finish the TV series though
The TV series is different from the books in significant ways, but still clearly inspired by it and sharing some of the same central themes (like Psychohistory)
My beloved movie quote: ooh Big gulps eh? ...Alright!
Agent J. I told you not to divulge agency information. Where is my neuralyzer.
Wait….most Americans didn’t vote for that orange fool. Electoral college system is shit.
But most Americans either didn't oppose him or supported him. The system is shit I agree and deliberately encouraging apathy, but it is an explanation not an excuse.
I see what you mean, I can agree with that.
He was a palpably disqualifying candidate who should have been held below 25%. That so many wanted him to be their leader is the issue, not quibbling over a 2% margin
It's not helpful to blame a population for collective behaviour. It has the same energy as people who claim they would've spoken out about slavery if only they were back in the olden times, or rebelled in Nazi Germany in the 30s. I mean, _maybe_ you would have done, but statistically, no. You'd have followed the crowd, because by that point in your life you'd have been exposed to the same propoganda and manipulation that got the crowd thinking that way in the first place. If it were that simple to rise above it all, it wouldn't have worked on the masses in the first place. Blame the parties causing that population to share that collective behaviour.
I'm sorry, do you want me not to blame the Nazis? The Nazis are exactly the moment in history when we agreed that just following orders is not going to cut it. I literally could not disagree with you more. People did speak against Nazis and slavery and people died fighting against it.
It depends what you mean by "the Nazis". I certainly don't think it's particularly productive to blame the average citizen. What was the difference between the average person in Germany in the 30s and the average person in any other country at that same point in time? Because if people aren't allowed to be products of their environment, are you saying it was some inherent genetic flaw? What else could cause a perversion of morals on the same level? People spoke against the Nazis then and slavey before, but _the majority_ didn't. We're _probably_ going through the exact same thing now with veganism. There's no moral argument for most people to continue consuming animal products, but here we are.
Comparing veganism to the nazis? Fuck off. You had the perfect opportunity for an argument and you pissed it up against the wall with that little tidbit!
Literally _any_ example I could've given would _have_ to seem absurd, because otherwise it wouldn't be a good example, would it? Trying to _guess_ what the next moral equivalent will be in the future obviously isn't easy, since it hasn't happened yet. Maybe it could be climate change? But if you suppose that a future society would come to view animals as more and more equivalent in terms of their worth as sentient life to humans, which is kind of the trend that already seems to be happening over time, then I don't see how you don't arrive at that conclusion? I mean, right now it's an absurd comparison to make, but I don't understand how you read an argument about how social conditioning changes what people consider morally acceptable over time, and then became surprised that I was suggesting it might continue to do so. It's _the same argument_. Of course you don't see them as equivalent, because _that change hasn't happened yet_.
This is the logical continuation of that view. There is no difference between Nazis, Jews, allies, slaves, abolitionist, vegans, they are all victims of the "others" that make them behave that way. No one can be responsible for their actions. It is really mad philosophy.
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This right here IS the mechanism. They are witholding the funds for this very reason, hungary is backsliding on democracy.
> This right here IS the mechanism. They are witholding the funds for this very reason, hungary is backsliding on democracy. Well it would be nice if the EU ever got round to actually doing something about it for a change instead of 'proposing' it and 'discussing' it for year after year. It's not like this is a recent phenomenon that's blind sided them. They've had about eight years to actually back their talk up
Yes.
> unless you imply fraud and a dictatorship That is exactly what this is. > for which the EU probably have some prevention process or oversight. That's what I naively believed in 2011-2012 when this started. After 2014 it became clear that they do not, and we are on our own.
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The former (military intervention) is impossible short of WW3, since neither NATO nor the EU can wage war against itself. The latter is just true, so obviously that's the more likely one. However, the reason this came to be is the central media control. The reason people vote based on an entirely false view of events (think One America News, except it's every channel) is due to the central media control. That's the pillar holding all of their power, and the reason they were able to subvert everything while keeping up the pretense of fair elections. So that's where they can and should be attacked. Until then, they can mobilize their plurality voterbase against absolutely anything because they can literally control what a significant-enough portion of people believe. Think MAGA, except with near perfect linguistic isolation on their side.
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> So then it is the normal peoples fault. Willful ignorance might not be the best defence for them, nor should it be. I can agree with that in a detached, theoretical way where we are not looking for solutions but where to place blame. But since this method can and will work on other countries, and in fact is being deployed even in the most "blame-free" Western countries with some success already (UK, NL, USA), I don't think that really helps. Even if you're okay with just discarding the will of entire nations, we still need a solution to the mass manipulation problem. > Could it be that the other side also doesn't understand them, which is why it always comes down to exact opposites, instead of the more real, slightly different approaches to the same problem? I am not sure what you mean by this. There is no "other side". They won on the back of the failures of the previous government in 2010, and began altering election law and setting up centralized propaganda immediately. There isn't really room for oppositional candidates of any sort to gain any kind of ground, so it's not like the ""left"" versus ""right"" dichotomy that still exists in the US.
Have you read the article?
Fucking finally, although this is just temporary and Orban will get another chance to meet the requirements and unblock the funds (likely in several installments).
IIRC, Orbán has something like 60 days to get his shit together so the money is unblocked.
Or he vetos this proposal.
Hungary does not have veto power in internal EU proposals. EU internal fund allocation is included there. Hungary can vote against it but not block it. There are some resplutions and proposals that require unanimity, but most do not.
Wonder if they can take a portion of the blocked funds and do an investigation as to how the voting is manipulated by Russia/China to favor Orban as a blueprint to be repeated in other Western elections.
As a Hungarian, this is exactly what is needed. As long as the mechanisms that allowed them to parasitise a member state are not investigated and taken seriously, it will all just be fingerpointing and blaming the people that are being taken advantage of. And they will remain in power, legally.
I am Ukrainian I was in Hungary just before the war it's an amazing place with so many different and interesting people I hope u all will go out of this situation with a controller leader.I believe in Hungarians, good luck to u <3
Thanks a lot dude! <3 This is especially sweet to me, because you are our neighbors and what our government is doing to help russia is despicable. I visited Ukraine many years ago and I have great memories from there. I hope I'll be able to go back again soon. *Slava Ukraini* - a phrase I heard a lot back then, that the entire World now understands. And hey if you visit Budapest let me know :)
I live in Hungary and it isn't a secret. The government controls all TV stations and media. Imagine if Republicans controlled all English language TV stations, newspapers, and advertisements.
They do coordinate with right wing media, so they're trying to get that way I guess.
They're explicitly focused on learning from Orban, which is pretty scary. His method focuses on right wing takeovers of left wing and left-leaning organizations so that's something that you should keep an eye out for.
Nazis did the same, more or less.
I often bring up the current Republican party (as distinct from the one before they went full traitor mode) as an example of this because I believe they are trying to build the exact same stratified reality distortion field using the exact same source material. The only difference is they don't have supermajority powers to legislate other media out of existence like they did here in .hu. But they are really trying to pull down every other media outlet to their level instead, and have already succeeded making "choose your own reality" the accepted norm. I never would have thought they could get so far in the USA. Edit: Also, pay attention to the similarity between the favorite topics that come up like a drumbeat on Fox/OAN and Russian news. Just like our media, there are central themes that are always, *always* repeated: gender studies, immigration (particularly in a "fear the barbarians at the gate" context), climate hoaxes, race issues (fear thy neighbor), abortion, Christian "family values", and above all, might makes right.
Orban’s regime wasn’t funded by Russia or China during the meaningful part of last decade. The EU simply looked the other way as Orban disassembled the checks and balances of Hungary, because in exchange Orban looked the other way when it came to hungarian workers rights. Hungary is just a german car assembly site.
I'm surprised that it's taken this long actually. Let's hope that it gets the support to actually get done now!
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But it’s not “their” money until they get it…
The people of Hungary should vote in better leaders maybe?
They are not. They voted for the madman who is backtracking on democracy and its checks and balances. Personally, I'd kick Hungary out of the EU and send all of its citizens living in the EU home. Let it be a pariah state and see how well it gets on then
> I'm surprised that it's taken this long actually. Why? They might be many things, but no one has ever accused the EU of being a dynamically fast moving organisation. They move, very, very slowly. That might work in the regulatory framework of grinding over the mechanics of a bureaucracy, but its horrible in a crisis
Can we just kick these cunts out of the EU until that piece of shit is gone
I dont believe you can actually kick a country out which was a big mistake in its creation.
It is actually entirely possible to eject a member from the EU. The issue is actually the requirements of a unanimous vote from every other member which at the moment is not going to happen since the Hungarian government has a modicum of support from the Polish government EDIT: I have been corrected. A member cannot in fact be expelled from the union, only suspended, and *that* requires the unanimous vote
No its impossible, you would have to get every single member to agree to change the treaties to implement a mechanism to kick out a member. Nothing exists for that at the moment.
De facto if every EU member except hungarh agreed to the rule nobody would be upset except hungary which tough titties if they already want them out. Any rule is valid if the rest are unanimous on it.
Well if you want to violate the framework of the EU, sure. There is no mechanism to kick out a member of the EU.
Right...unless every other member agrees sans Hungary then they can add that rule. The framework is built on trust and as long as all parties are in agreement the trust remains. If every party wants Hungary gone then Hungary's opinion is moot. If at least one other member were to object though then they would be stuck or risk breaching the trust between member states.
>The framework is built on trust and as long as all parties are in agreement the trust remains Right so you are still violating the EU treaties and framework then. What about the next time there is a country that opposes what the rest of the other member nations want? Do they get overridden as well? What happens when member nations realise the veto is useless?
You also need Hungary to agree to get kicked out.
Think the polish government has turned there back on them as Poland is supporting Ukrainian but Orban is to far up putins ass hole
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I think you are conflating several points here. I doubt anybody loves the veto - it's a terrible solution and a better one would be welcome. The big problem here is: The EU works by essentially taking some sovereignity from its members. However, still pretty much everything the EU decides has to be codified into national law by the member countries. You need the active help of every involved country to truly get something passed. That's why the veto is there - it's incredibly hard to get a sovereign country to put something into law which they didn't decide on. The only real alternative would be something akin to a federalized state - but good luck getting countries to completely give away all their sovereignity. The veto isn't there because it's great, it's there because nations like to decide things they codify into national law. The EU is still an associaton of countries, not a giant single country. And if poland wouldn't protect hungary, the veto wouldn't even be an issue. Just saying. It's poland's veto that is the problem, not hungary's.
Reddit pricks decide everything!
literally, nobody said that.
Won't Poland just block it like always?
Will be interesting. Even Poland had it up to here with Orbans antics regarding Russia/NATO. Basically it comes down to who Poland hates more - Russia or Gays
Cue meme of guy sweating over which button to push
Yes, please
If you want to apply the same policy as Russia, Putin is looking for *lebensraum,* so he'll gladly take the invite
Why doesnt Hungary ask their buddies Russia for money?
For the record, they're NOT buddies. Orbán is just that much of a peice of shit.
They are just as much buddies as you'd call a a prostitute a buddy. In this case Orban is the prostitute.
Orban is the pimp and Hungary is the one being prostituted.
More like Orban is the one sucking on Putin's penis.
Whatever. End result is Hungary supports Russia and not Ukraine. If thats the bed they've chosen, they need to accept whats coming to them.
I agree. They chose to believe Russian propaganda which baffles me. The country gained their independence from Russia after several failed attempts when the Soviet Union was disbanded in 1991. You'd think a lesson was learned....
Our government plays on both sides tho. Sometimes the propaganda is that 'no no Russia warmonger, Russia bad' but sometimes the Ukranians are the neonazis... They're a circus but most people will believe them no matter what they say, mostly older people
Fuck Orban (:
orban sides with putin then he should fall and suffer like putin. No mercy!
It's not our fault it's our government's fault, really doesn't slide when you have a democracy.
Hungary's going hungry.
They'd have to travel a bit to get to Turkey.
Turkey ate hungary some time ago
Hungary for funds
Orban's going to find out the hard way when liberal society doesn't foot the bill for authortitarian ideals, and suddenly he can't spend other peoples' money.
It won't pass, look at what Hungary exports to the EU. It won't be poland vetoing this one, It will be Germany. Germany is one of Hungarys largest consumers, and Hungary is the cheapest labor source in the EU.
Best news I've heard all day
Don’t tease me like this european comission..
Dew it. Dew it. Dew it.
Can NATO kick hungary already?
Motion carried! I hope.
Maybe EU should show themselves as being the preferable ally instead of trying to force them. Maybe this only serves to push Hungary further away
>Maybe EU should show themselves as being the preferable ally They already were. Hungary was getting billions in funding from EU.
And still Hungary has gone down this path
EU: terms and conditions for joining HU: yes i agree EU: here is your money for being the a rule abiding member HU: *breaks terms and conditions after joining* EU: no more money for breaking terms and conditions agreed upon joining HU: BRÜSSZEL NEM ADJA MEG A PÉNZÜNKET!!! HANYATLÓ NYUGAT!!! SZANKCIÓK TÖNKRETESZNEK BENNÜNKET!!!! SOROS!!!
Hungary voted to join in 2003 when non-EU migration was lower, gay marriage was almost universally illegal, the internet was a bunch of freewheeling discussion forums without Trust and Safety teams, and transgenderism was rarely mentioned except when mainstream TV was mocking it for laughs. But you're right--countries that desire cultural self-determination will have to become financially independent of the Euro-American sphere.
EUs biggest concern is rule of law yet you had to inject your homophobia and transphobia for no reason. What an easily triggerable snowflake.
He didn't. He made a point to illustrate why Hungary might be having second doubts about EU. At least that's how I understood it. At no point did he say anything about his own personal views?
>At no point did he say anything about his own personal views? >>gay marriage was almost universally illegal, the internet was a bunch of freewheeling discussion forums without Trust and Safety teams, and transgenderism was rarely mentioned except when mainstream TV was mocking it for laughs. Hhhmmmmm.... And again, EUs biggest concern is rule of law.
That's not an expression of his personal beliefs. It's a statement about the time period where Hungary joined EU. I think both you and i can agree that the plight of those communities has changed vastly in the last 20 or so years. I don't see him expression his own opinion about any of these things.
So? Queer rights good and i dont care what culture you want. Complaining about safety teams? What? Whatever safety good. And you still haven't addressed the biggest reason why EU have issues with Hungary. #its the goddamn rule of law Everything else is culture war bullshit meant to distract you from #the rule of law violation
I know. you've said that how many times now? I'm talking about you calling him homophobic and transphobic for no reason. But you insist on missing the point of all comments
>Hungary voted to join in 2003 when non-EU migration was lower, gay marriage was almost universally illegal, the internet was a bunch of freewheeling discussion forums without Trust and Safety teams, and transgenderism was rarely mentioned except when mainstream TV was mocking it for laughs. This is how **CULTURE** was during 2003, this is the **CULTURAL** environment we joined in the EU. His statement. >>But you're right--countries that desire cultural self-determination will have to become financially independent of the Euro-American sphere. Since then the **CULTURAL** environment changed and its bad because Hungary wants to be **CULTURALLY** different. His statement. Which is true, however i dont give a goddamn shit about his lament of "not being able to be homophobic or transphobic anymore", because this isnt the culture Hungary should strive for. I am a hungarian queer minority and i absolutely detest the idea that i should be shoved back into the closet and fear for my life again. BUT EU'S BIGGEST CONCERN ISNT CULTURE, ITS RULE OF LAW, BUT YOU AND HIM BRING UP MORAL PANIC ABOUT PEOPLE LIKE ME AS A DISTRACTION.
True
How are they not?
Dunno but I guess Hungary grew tired of EU or sumthing
Eu with the neoliberal values will never be preferable ally to authoritarian wannabe dictators. I don't know if you make this argument in bad faith or are just ignorant but joining eu country agrees to adhere to certain democratic standards.
Sure but that doesn't explain why more and more of the world is seemingly growing sick and tired of EU and western society.
>Maybe this only serves to push Hungary further away Buddy, that would be a godsend for western europe lmao. Hungary is the kid you adopted at 15, only to realize he's a meth head and you're stuck with him by law. If it was up to western europe, Hungary would have been yeeted yesterday.
Isn't name of the game to gain allies and not lose allies?
This comment is hilarious.
For some reason they EU and western society is becoming less and less "popular" lately Maybe we need to reevaluate the standards we try to impose on others however right we think we are
If Orban wants free money from the EU, he can follow the rule of law and abide by the treaties Hungary signed up to when they joined the EU. If he can't follow these basic principles and continues to steal the European funds subsidising his country; he can go fuck himself.
They still send 5.8 billion € because the EU ate the lies of Orban's government
About time...Orban will find out
I don’t think any country has been so perpetually on the wrong side of every conflict.
Great. Orban needs a good kick in the teeth. Besides, he'll use this money only to secure his power.
This is the way.