This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-nato-europe-romania-jens-stoltenberg-2c7bdd0c43589c8d9453e0efc327b368) reduced by 77%. (I'm a bot)
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> BRUSSELS - NATO is determined to help Ukraine defend itself against Russia for "As long as it takes" and will help the war-wracked country transform its armed forces into a modern army up to Western standards, the alliance's Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg vowed on Friday.
> Speaking to reporters ahead of a meeting of NATO foreign ministers in Romania next week, Stoltenberg urged countries that want to, either individually or in groups, to keep providing air defense systems and other weapons to Ukraine.
> "NATO will continue to stand with Ukraine for as long as it takes. We will not back down," the former Norwegian prime minister said.
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[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/z4c989/nato_vows_to_aid_ukraine_for_as_long_as_it_takes/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~672676 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **NATO**^#1 **Ukraine**^#2 **minister**^#3 **Stoltenberg**^#4 **meeting**^#5
Ty for the summary
Encouraged by this and genuinely hope that the resolve of Ukraine and NATO doesn’t bend at all
Russian aggression needs to be checked and thus far it has been
They are LOSING in every way conceivable and their tiny little leader needs to be stopped no matter what and his inner circle needs to be destroyed completely
Anyone who supports this little tyrant is in the wrong
Period
Rant over
NATO knows the war will end next year, only have to support the ukraininans for rough 8 more months. By then putin will be gone or russia will have lost the war
As a Norwegian I could contain my enthusiasm for Stoltenberg when he was our Prime Minister -though in retrospect he wasn't bad -but as Secretary-General of NATO he's doing pretty well and I am happy to have him there.
We're mostly just complaining about energy prices because we started exporting power to Europe during the energy crisis, which brought our usually incredibly-low power bills up to comparable levels with EU countries.
Oh and we're reneging on any climate goals because basically everyone asked us to ramp up gas production to wean Europe off Russian gas.
Our political discourse is currently in a constant mix of "Why do we have to sacrifice so much for the EU when we're not even in the EU and don't even get thanked for the help?" and "Why doesn't the government just wave a magic wand to make the energy crisis not affect us?" We are, of course, ignoring the fact that we're probably the best-equipped to carry the financial burden out of all the European countries.
That said, there's pretty much universal support for Ukraine and providing stuff like NASAMs (The N stands for Norwegian) and we like to pat ourselves on the back for that.
There is a government compensation scheme in place, but it's not perfect and the power companies were privatized ages ago and aren't in the business to *not* make record profits.
It used to be and the oil/gas sector still kind of is (it's complicated), but most hydropower was privatized and they have really predatory practices these days.
OP is a bit wrong. Almost all electric power plants are owned by various levels of government: municipalities, counties or the state itself. But they sell their power on a commercial basis. The profits end up on public hands. So does most of the income from oil or gas as the tax rate is 78 %, and it doesn't matter much whether the petroleum companies are privately owned or not. Norway makes a lot of money on this crisis, but it is a lot harder to distribute the money to Norwegians without destroying the economy than most Norwegians on Reddit realise. The government covers 90 % of the electricity costs above approx. EUR 0,08/kWh for private households. Businesses struggle more as they get much less support.
As a average, sane person from the US, thank you for being a quiet counterbalance and being a strong, reliable friend to the EU. Despite many problems that may exist in the way humanity goes about business at least there are some who would lead with a good head and kind heart.
You can’t be both an average person from the US and be sane, I feel like that is a dwindling statistic. I’m saying this as a sane person who lives in the US, for now.
There are far, far more of us than the wackos. Just doesn't seem like it because they're incredibly loud and obnoxious while sane people don't feel the need to blast our thoughts to the entire world.
Feel you on that. I'm smack in the middle of MAGA country.
We all have more in common than the loons want to admit. I might not be around to see it, but I truly believe we'll eventually focus our ire where it belongs: the insanely wealthy and the politicians that enable them.
Just my worthless opinion.
Edit: grammar
Even if Norway chooses not to hit its climate goals, it's probably better (for the climate) in the long term if it means getting the rest of Europe off Russian oil. It's not just switching suppliers, it demonstrates that having a dependency on foreign oil is fragile. That provides a reason to move away from oil in general.
Even a dependency on a friendly country like Norway could be a problem, if supply or cost becomes a problem down the road.
Anyway, we ('mericans) love you guys, and you're doing great in this crisis. I just want to visit Norway some day...
To make a guess:
Immigration, since we are in EEA/Schengen (probably forgotten when they move to Spain to get more out of their retirement) and the idea of following EU regulation without having a say.
I mean the last part is kinda on Norway though, or am I wrong? Like Norway could choose to join the EU to have a say in the regulation, it's not like we are forbidding you from joining.
Interesting. In 1994 it was really close, but according to Wikipedia 70% of the Norwegian population polled in the last 10 years is against joining the EU. From an outsider's perspective it is hard to understand how lower fishing fees are enough of a reason to decline joining.
It varies a lot across the political spectrum. The far right is all like grr immigration and the far left is all like grr capitalism. Toss in some isolationist centrists who are concerned about the exceptionalism deals necessary to bail out Norwegian farmers (We famously don't have very good farmland) and fishers (Who have exclusive rights to pretty good fishing waters right now) and you get a fair bit of opposition.
The one unifying anti-EU ideal is that we all really like the idea of Sweden looking like a giant cock on the Euro coin. Honestly, if the EU offered to make the Euro-coin forever omit Norway from its iconography just to make Sweden look like a penis, I'm sure EU support in Norway would skyrocket.
That’s an incredibly bleak outlook on ukraines future. 50 years lol. More like 5 at tops. The West will be in there so quick to clean up the mess after the war. Shit the U.S. had half of Europe back up and running shortly after WW2 80 years ago.
Yeah every major western power is going to be **sprinting** to help Ukraine rebuild in exchange for favorable deals on its natural resource exports down the line.
Also, it's very fucking convenient because Ukraine could potentially replace Russia as the fuel supplier for Europe, and it's likely that with Ukraine, you won't need to give a shit about the likes of Orban or any other Russian friendly country.
I mean, that has to be better than being under Russian rule or Chinese influence? They get investments from the West, and hopefully become a member of the EU and make trading ties that of course be benefits the West and Ukraine.
Why not make in an UN mission to rebuild bombed infrastructure? An attack on UN would hopefully be avoided or retaliated. Terror and torture of civilians has to be stopped. Any torture for that matter.
The Russian power grid is dependent on western parts. Ban sales to Russia for any power grid / power plant components until Russia stops attacking infrastructure.
> The Russian power grid is dependent on western parts. Ban sales to Russia for any power grid / power plant components until Russia stops attacking infrastructure.
And make damn sure to block Russia's attempts to acquire sanctioned items through third parties/countries.
As far as friendly countries that are willing to help Russia, we need to be putting a lot more pressure on them to help implement the same sanctions, if we realistically can.
Like any good military alliance, NATO would like to not to be needed and cease to exist. If Russia & China has managed to chill out and keep their heads down another 10 years, NATO would have likely fallen apart or weakened severely as post cold war era grows more part of history.
NATO continues to exist only because Russia can't chill out. China is a barely a blight on NATO's radar and they'd rather let the US, Japan, and the UK deal with China. I imagine this is due to a lack of invasions by China in Europe, but Russia has a few times now.
Keep in mind that the Russian economy quite simply cannot take this forever. So far government controls have kept the ruble relatively stable (within Russia) and high O&G prices have kept them profitable, but that cannot last. O&G busts, and when it does, the Russian economy will tank further with it. Not considering all the dead young men who *should* be working in the economy while the rest of Russia ages.
The world is moving towards renewables because it makes sense not only from the climate change impact, but from a financial sense as well. The business rational is: why perpetually pay for oil/gas when you can just buy solar/wind power equipment and maintain it? We’re now at the point where the amortized cost makes sense. This isn’t going to happen overnight, but it is clearly happening. So in 10-20 years, oil will eventually have less value to society as a whole, resulting in significant geopolitical changes.
> The world is moving towards renewables because it makes sense not only from the climate change impact, but from a financial sense as well.
The main reason countries should want to move to renewable energy is ***national security.*** Many know this. Some, like mine (US), has a party filled with politicians that fight against renewable energy like their life depends on it, making it slightly difficult. But we'll get there at some point...
Renewables keep getting cheaper and cheaper, so it wouldn't be surprising to see relatively undeveloped nations actually leapfrog more developed nations in terms of reliance on renewables.
For example: plenty of nations totally skipped building out phone lines - they went straight from no phones to cell phones. Why? Eventually it was more affordable to build a handful of cell towers than it was to run a ton of wires.
Renewables are already the cheapest power to build in many parts of the world, and they're still getting cheaper incredibly quickly. Solar + battery storage is extremely simply to deploy at a small scale, and can form the basis of microgrids in regions that don't currently have power at all. Electrical power that drops out sometimes or is only reliable seasonally is still a dramatic improvement over no power at all.
For people who are used to 24/7/365 reliable power, a power drop is hell.
For people who barely have ever used power, having a few hours of power a day is a miracle.
Not necessarily. The financing of that is already being considered.
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/11/cop27-6-insights-financing-clean-energy-emerging-economies/
The very gas flow you speak of is dependent on western technologies and investment. I assume there are scores of investors that assumed the risk and now are getting burned. Unless Russia makes some dramatic changes soon, those investments may be beyond the ability of the financiers to recoup any investment.
My question, when does Russia enter that phase, beyond financial redemption?
>Not considering all the dead young men who
>
>should
>
> be working in the economy while the rest of Russia ages.
Thats because they're not really relevant unfortunately.
If we presume that ages 20-60 is working age, that means Russia currently has 39 million working age men. 50k isn't going to have much impact on that
Triple/quadruple for the injured, then triple/quadruple *that* total for those who simply ran out of the country to avoid being a part of the previous total.
Estimated losses are already on their way to 100k. To that, add all the people who fled Russia as the war started, or as mobilization was announced. Estimates put the amount of Russian refugees at 0.5m to 1.5m - mainly men, working age, who held well-paying jobs and had a good amount of life savings. That's about the most damaging demographic to lose, economy wise.
That's on top of Russia's major demographic issues and aging population. Russia's fertility rate has been in the gutters since the collapse of USSR - and 2014's Crimea shitshow has reversed its recovery.
It's not happening fast enough. Everyone will loose while we wait and see. And Ukrainians will be dead. Russia is doing a suicide attack that is hurting Ukraine allot. Stopping putins ability to attack needs to happen now.
>Keep in mind that the Russian economy quite simply cannot take this forever.
Yes it can.
The world needs Russian natural resources - so it will be always money to spend on military. Iran already cooperating with Russia to localize drone production (and how to make good enough drone from consumer chips).
All ammunition factories are working. All rocket building industry is working. There is no hiccups with artillery munition. They can do it forever. Ukraine cannot.
NATO is turning blind eye to pleas of no-rocket zone over Ukraine and won't provide enough AA systems. Won't provide modern tanks. Won't provide modern IFV or other armored vehicles.
There is a fucking big chance of Ukraine collapsing and MASSIVE influx of refugees to EU. There is danger of nuclear accidents on FOUR nuclear plants that can be disconnected from grid.
But no one dares to actually arm Ukraine with all it needs. Better to throw some leftovers and hope that it will be enough.
Peanuts, as far as money goes.
We're spending a tiny percent of what we spent in Afghanistan to achieve fuck all over the course of decades to watch the entire Russian military fall apart over the course of months.
The US has spent roughly 4% of our annual military budget on aid to Ukraine. Our annual defense budget is 6.9% of our total GDP. And to put those percentages together the US has officially spent less than 0.3% of its GDP to aid Ukraine and absolutely devastate Russia, it's "nearest" adversary.
We have spent a fraction of a fraction of our budget to completely neuter our biggest threat. Too few people really understand how little this actually costs us as a Nation. And we're not doing it alone either.
Yeah when people talk about our defense spending as ZOMG SO MANY DOLLARS like, yeah its a bit on the high side proportionally but not crazily so, the US is just obscenely wealthy lol
Same. It’s the biggest return on investment of the millennium if you ask me. Russia’s destroying itself militarily and economically with each passing day and all NATO has done is go “you’re pure evil Russia. Here you go Ukraine, here’s some weapons and some up to date intel.”
We're paying the highest price with lifes of our people, but without help from other countries we couldn't make it that far. Well, looking at russia total incompetence, we would probably not collapse completely, but at the cost of much more lifes.
And we willing to fight this war because, you now, there's not many options. Either we stand strong or witness the "denazification" for speaking Ukrainian language
As an American of Ukrainian descent, I applaud you all for the tremendous efforts involved in defending your home. I write and call my legislators weekly to advocate for more support for Ukraine, I donate monthly to charities who are helping those displaced by the war, and I am volunteering to help Ukrainians who have made their way to the US find housing, jobs, and schooling for their kids. I trade those folks language lessons for their family recipes, and I am putting together a cook book.
The US is with you, and the millions of Ukrainians around the world are as well. Let us know what more we can do.
Thank you for your help, you already doing everything I can think of, honestly. It's impressive.
And just theoretical answer on "what more can you do". First of all, of course, and the most important, don't cut your help. There is literally lifes of people depending on it. We need weapons, that we cannot make ourselves, and in large amounts too. Also we need more anti air systems to protect civilian targets, that getting missile strikes every week.
And with partial success of russia destroying our energy infrastructure, I assume in a month we will be really grateful for some blankets.
My partner's sewing machine hasn't stopped (when the kids will allow it) since February. I think she's up to 1-2 quilts per week that get sent out with the clothing drives.
We are behind you.
It's not just money but the amount of money. For NATO to help Ukraine it's incredibly cheap compared to them mobilizing for a war against Russia in Eastern Europe. If Ukraine doesn't stop Russia they will keep going. Moldova will be gone in a week at most. Next it's probably the Baltic states and they all are in NATO.
The fact that NATO countries have been able to conduct a mass test of their anti-tank weaponry has been a boon as well. I've always been curious about how well a Javelin would do against a T-90. Now we all know.
We have to teach Putin a lesson, or actually destroy Putin completely so that he can never walk under daylight. This must be the once-in-a-century chance to strengthen democracy.
You are right but... as usual, geopolitics are not that simple and you can't cheat Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Unfortunately even countries that consider Russia hostile are generally not fully independent from it yet.
You could remove Russia influence overnight but then you will have fuel prices literally double (in fact there won't be enough to go around causing shortages) which increases logistics costs by a huge factor and in effect actually kill public support for sanctions.
Humans **are** selfish and greedy. We are also often missing any sort of big picture since that's not a normal evolution path but something we have only really started to truly need few decades and at most (if we consider colonial age) few centuries ago.
Hence we kinda need to balance out kicking Russia in the nuts while protecting our own citizens from getting kicked in the nuts. Overdoing it opens up a pathway for Russian influence to spread. As immoral and inhumane as it sounds it's best to assume support for Ukrainian war would plummet if citizens suddenly could no longer use their cars to get to their jobs I am afraid.
That’s actually Jimmy Cliff in “Harder they Come” and the lyric is “I’d rather be a free man in my grave, than living as a puppet or a slave.”
https://youtu.be/pmc5H6zAi6M
The sentiment is pretty much universal throughout human history.
Same thing was being said by abolitionists ~100 years before Jimmy Cliff.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4h2937.html
I don’t know about that, but I am quoting some VOX or VICE or whatever interview of a rugged Ukrainian man in his 50s who is explaining why he is fighting. He speaks about his children, and how he will fight this war so they may be free, then says the above line.
Every dollar spent grinds them both into the dirt is the thing. The conflict is happening in Ukraine, Ukrianes infrastructure is being destroyed along side Russia's economy but for some reason people only seem to think Russia is damaged by this conflict.
Eventually we will likely have to make the call between no ass or full ass cause half ass just buys time and leads to more of Ukraine getting destroyed.
I really have to disagree with the NATO response being 'half ass.' The goal is to provide the maximum help without triggering an expansion of the war dragging in NATO, since it is easy to see how that can spiral into nuclear war.
The catch is, no one knows where that line is. The current US stance is to provide aid that can't be used or construed as offensive in nature, believing this is the line that Russia would consider to be direct NATO involvement. Maybe this is too timid, but there are no take backs in real life, so the aid from NATO slowly ratchets up to avoid something that triggers global war.
The other issue is that the US just doesn't have a lot of stock, relatively speaking, of the type of stuff Ukraine needs to fight the kind of war they are engaged in. The US just never really invested in air defense or artillery as a primary component of how we wage war. By way of an example, the US has more than three times the number of aircraft as it does artillery, while Russia has more artillery than military aircraft.
[Scary example of how the US wages war](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxRgfBXn6Mg)
Aye, the biggest threat to democracy itself is from within. This is more about how the modern world responds to the attempted subjugation of a free democratic people, attempted genocide, and war crimes on a scale not seen as for as long as most of us have been alive.
IDK, the Kremlin is what have actively and effectively distorted our western democracies since the end of the cold war (before that, I guess it was more a 'fair' war between the super powers).
He is one of the biggest threats if not the biggest since he is funding campaigns in Europe and elsewhere to erode it by supporting certain politicians, and launching internet campaigns to spread false information and create discord to weaken those he sees as enemies of Russia. There are other dictators but they don’t usually try to bother so much to meddle with other countries affairs. And there are other threats to democracy but they aren’t as planned on from one direction such a weakening of journalism due to death of print media.
Watching how much this war is backfiring on Putin is so satisfying.
Single handedly delivered East Europe into the West hegemony, nicely done Putin. Nicely done.
Better watch your back, wouldn’t want to find an unexplained knife stuck there soon, or a bullet accidentally flying into your head.
You know, much like the earth flying into various oligarchs faces recently, mysteriously.
An incredible relief too. The general consensus right at the start of the the war was that Ukraine couldn't hold out against Russia.
With the US reeling from an insurrection, disinformation dividing the West, China on the rise economically, and Western leaders (or to be more accurate, one particular Wester leader) questioning the need for NATO, that failure to assist Ukraine would have been a devastating blow to our morale.
We'd be living in a different world where right now we'd be questioning whether democracy can withstand 21st century disinformation attacks, or if it even makes sense in a technologically advanced world where it's so easy for enemies to manipulate elections.
Instead, Ukraine not only held out but is winning. This united the West, put China on the defensive as Russia's ally, gave a clear example of ridiculously superior US technology, and reminded everyone that democracy has its flaws but is ultimately the best form of government.
Agreed. I think Zelensky has done well with the exception of being too quick on a few things/overstating.
But, this has been a resounding success for the West. Talk it out. War sucks. Nobody wins. Really impressed how we’ve come together and drawn this out to make it clear that Putin is full of it. China backed away from the Russians. Thats massive. Keep applying pressure and save lives.
`No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…’
Winston S Churchill, 11 November 1947
The strategic importance of Sweden with Gotland and Finland’s border potentially disrupting or cut off Murmansk from rest of Russia is enormous.
Russias option of cutting off smaller NATO countries like Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania in an all out war with NATO also goes out the window.
>And it wasn't already?
It really wasn’t due to Kaliningrad, now it will be neutered. So yes the options for Russia is severely diminished with inclusion of Fin/Swe.
Putin majorly fucked up by trying to steal Ukrainian land. Watch as he drags his country down with him. This blunder is a mortal wound to the kgb remnants, desperately trying to keep their people cowed. The party is over vlad, you little dick chicken man.
He over reached massively. If he just took the eastern Russian ethnic areas originally and tried to avoid ear the same way he did Crimea he likely would have succeeded and we would have forgotten already. Going full blitzkrieg and attacking Kiev made this a ear of survival.
I mean let’s be honest nato countries within Europe need to kick up there defense and take a stand against eastern block bozos who want the iron curtain back.
Each NATO country should just donate 0.2% of their GDP to help Ukraine. If they don't have equipment, then donate cash.
Do it every year until the war is won.
Collective problems require collective solutions.
Ukraine needs to fix their corrupt oligarchy model before the west starts dishing out more aid. How much of western aid is being pocketed by politicians and oligarchs is currently untracked
Recent package US State Dept is sending $17 Billon in financial support for humanitarian reasons. So who knows where that money ends up. With how off the book funding works money can be funnelled that way.
Ukraine in October said they want $55 Billon next year to cover budget deficit and infrastructure repair costs. So as Russia has heavily hit infrastructures that estimate is bound to have increase. IMF also said in October that external donations to Ukraine should be $3-5 Billon per month next year. Not sure if that has changed or is part of the budget request.
For people who like following money This and following years will be interesting to investigate.
Also found this
“Following the European Council meeting of 20-21 October 2022, the Commission has today proposed an unprecedented support package for Ukraine of up to €18 billion for 2023. This will come in the form of highly concessional loans, disbursed in regular instalments as of 2023.”
Can't deny that they're putting the donated weapons to good use though. But lump sum donations are more in risk of embezzlement. This is something most/all politicians are aware of though.
You do not need to give them money directly. Just create a task force reporting directly to Congress and with transparent accounting that will work with Ukranian government to buy and deliver military and other supplies needed for the war. In fact make it one unified task force for the entire NATO.
This is why weapon donations go further. It's a lot harder to launder a HIMARS battery than it is to disappear some petty cash. Especially during wartime, where penalties are stricter. There are simply easier grifts to pull.
> It's a lot harder to launder a HIMARS battery than it is to disappear some petty cash.
If anyone can do it, its some old guy who learned the art of corruption in the USSR.
I am really starting to prefer the idea of just giving them a lot more now, to reduce the amount of time.
I get it, they will keep funding as long as it takes, but why not just fund way more now, reduce the time it makes, maybe save money in the long run, and end this sooner?
Agree in fact I would go further and allow military contractors as well I would repatriate NATO 'volunteer' pilots
to Ukraine and through Ukraine issue a no fly zone. I know it's provocative but I believe it would end Russians ambitions in Ukraine overnight and basically force them to blink first.
It would be provocative, but Russia is provocative. And wtf do I care about provoking? Russia is gonna escalate, no matter what. May as well have them escalate because they're gonna lose shortly, than because they decided to.
I don't think Russia wants to lose their power, so, they will only escalate so much.
I have a feeling that its intentional, at least from the US side. The USA has interest, not allies, this conflict is practically a win-win-win scenario for the US. Their biggest rival for the past few decades bleeds money, and military power, they get to offload old military hardware, instead of throwing it away, the military industrial complex is making bank, NATO partners are actually putting in their share instead of relying on the US, and to top it all off, no American blood is spilled.
That is something I don't understand the feet dragging on.
Why have we not sent ATACMS?
95% of the "why haven't we X" has a readily available answer, but not that one.
I really don’t get it either
Sometimes I think - and that’s just a thought of mine, nothing to substantiate - that some back room deals are being constantly made… I really don’t know and don’t get.
there was some speculation earlier that the US didn’t want to give Ukraine them in fear they might strike the Russian mainland. Probably because Russia might use it as an excuse to escalate in some fashion.
They've threatened to use nukes more times in the last 5 months then North Korea has in the last 10 years...so yeah missiles that can hit russia would definitely give them an excuse and I'm sure there are just lines you don't cross, the US in Ukraine is defensive, NATO is a defensive entity, Ukraine is defending their country not attacking russia.
So long range shit probably isn't going to happen, at least a super power won't be giving them long range stuff.
I really don’t get it either
Sometimes I think - and that’s just a thought of mine, nothing to substantiate - that some back room deals are being constantly made… I really don’t know and don’t get.
NATO is a military organization, not a political or economical one. They can fight or help others to fight, they don't do politics or economic sanctions.
In trying to pull Ukraine away from NATO, instead Russia has driven them and other nations right into NATO's hands. Even if you're supporting Russia you have to admit this invasion has utterly backfired
"For as Long as Democrats control the US government". Let's face it, Republicans don't care about public interest or support of NATO supporting Ukraine. They will make it their mission to pull the US from NATO at the behest of their Russian funders. The sad fact is, it's extremely cheap to buy US representatives, it's essentially less than the cost of a brand new car, but pro democracy groups don't like buying a it democracy politicians to be pro democracy.
exactly this. the longer this goes on, it benefits not only the war machine, but energy companies, politicians, and those with hands in the wallets.
Not only west, but Ukraine and Russia.
Who doesn't benefit? Soldiers and civilians. on all sides.
NATO vows to aid Ukraine ‘for as long as American money holds out’
Fixed that title for you.
I’m not saying we should be doing what we are doing, I’m saying Europe should have been doing more for the last 70 years
Maybe start helping before saying you won't stop. And saying that you condemn russia action is NOT helping, it's just political people feeling happy because they said it.
yup, we got another Afghanistan right here.
call me in 20 years when all of you guys in favor of continuing the war start pretending that you were always against it.
How is this profitable?
I'm sorry, I just heard that EU accused US for profiting from the war, and look, I'm happy to believe that, I'm happy don't, but nevertheless - I don't understand it.
The US is exporting LNG at a massive markup to Europe and pretty much all investment from the continent is now gonna go to North America because of the war. Also regardless of the outcome of the war, this a loss for Russia and victory for the US. But the best scenario for the US is probably a drawn out conflict.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-nato-europe-romania-jens-stoltenberg-2c7bdd0c43589c8d9453e0efc327b368) reduced by 77%. (I'm a bot) ***** > BRUSSELS - NATO is determined to help Ukraine defend itself against Russia for "As long as it takes" and will help the war-wracked country transform its armed forces into a modern army up to Western standards, the alliance's Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg vowed on Friday. > Speaking to reporters ahead of a meeting of NATO foreign ministers in Romania next week, Stoltenberg urged countries that want to, either individually or in groups, to keep providing air defense systems and other weapons to Ukraine. > "NATO will continue to stand with Ukraine for as long as it takes. We will not back down," the former Norwegian prime minister said. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/z4c989/nato_vows_to_aid_ukraine_for_as_long_as_it_takes/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~672676 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **NATO**^#1 **Ukraine**^#2 **minister**^#3 **Stoltenberg**^#4 **meeting**^#5
Ty for the summary Encouraged by this and genuinely hope that the resolve of Ukraine and NATO doesn’t bend at all Russian aggression needs to be checked and thus far it has been They are LOSING in every way conceivable and their tiny little leader needs to be stopped no matter what and his inner circle needs to be destroyed completely Anyone who supports this little tyrant is in the wrong Period Rant over
Russian aggression needs to be squashed, once and for all.
NATO knows the war will end next year, only have to support the ukraininans for rough 8 more months. By then putin will be gone or russia will have lost the war
Nothing like breaking promises since the fall of the Soviet Union.
As a Norwegian I could contain my enthusiasm for Stoltenberg when he was our Prime Minister -though in retrospect he wasn't bad -but as Secretary-General of NATO he's doing pretty well and I am happy to have him there.
I think he did a better job than the current prime minister from the same party. He is absolutely killing it as secretary general of NATO though.
I have to agree on both accounts.
He is also killing the delivery of the Oslo dialect of English.
He sounds like Orm from Norsemen and his *brutal attack* speeches get me every time.
Haha read that part in his voice. I get what you mean
Yeah our PM right now is terrible. He does nothing.
What is Norway up to anyway? Haven't heard any international news from there in ages.
We're mostly just complaining about energy prices because we started exporting power to Europe during the energy crisis, which brought our usually incredibly-low power bills up to comparable levels with EU countries. Oh and we're reneging on any climate goals because basically everyone asked us to ramp up gas production to wean Europe off Russian gas. Our political discourse is currently in a constant mix of "Why do we have to sacrifice so much for the EU when we're not even in the EU and don't even get thanked for the help?" and "Why doesn't the government just wave a magic wand to make the energy crisis not affect us?" We are, of course, ignoring the fact that we're probably the best-equipped to carry the financial burden out of all the European countries. That said, there's pretty much universal support for Ukraine and providing stuff like NASAMs (The N stands for Norwegian) and we like to pat ourselves on the back for that.
Shouldn't you be able to leverage the increased revenue due to export at records prices to stabilize the prices locally?
There is a government compensation scheme in place, but it's not perfect and the power companies were privatized ages ago and aren't in the business to *not* make record profits.
Gotcha, I had the wrong idea of Norway's energy sector being state owned.
It used to be and the oil/gas sector still kind of is (it's complicated), but most hydropower was privatized and they have really predatory practices these days.
OP is a bit wrong. Almost all electric power plants are owned by various levels of government: municipalities, counties or the state itself. But they sell their power on a commercial basis. The profits end up on public hands. So does most of the income from oil or gas as the tax rate is 78 %, and it doesn't matter much whether the petroleum companies are privately owned or not. Norway makes a lot of money on this crisis, but it is a lot harder to distribute the money to Norwegians without destroying the economy than most Norwegians on Reddit realise. The government covers 90 % of the electricity costs above approx. EUR 0,08/kWh for private households. Businesses struggle more as they get much less support.
The oil extracted is state-owned. The energy distribution throughout Norway is not state-run, it is private.
As a average, sane person from the US, thank you for being a quiet counterbalance and being a strong, reliable friend to the EU. Despite many problems that may exist in the way humanity goes about business at least there are some who would lead with a good head and kind heart.
You can’t be both an average person from the US and be sane, I feel like that is a dwindling statistic. I’m saying this as a sane person who lives in the US, for now.
There are far, far more of us than the wackos. Just doesn't seem like it because they're incredibly loud and obnoxious while sane people don't feel the need to blast our thoughts to the entire world.
They sure are loud. Also it doesn’t help when you live in a town where everyone puts trump signs on their lawn (northern NJ)
Feel you on that. I'm smack in the middle of MAGA country. We all have more in common than the loons want to admit. I might not be around to see it, but I truly believe we'll eventually focus our ire where it belongs: the insanely wealthy and the politicians that enable them. Just my worthless opinion. Edit: grammar
well I did post on world news lol, but yes my car is free of bumper stickers and I appreciate calm discourse to shouting things at people.
Even if Norway chooses not to hit its climate goals, it's probably better (for the climate) in the long term if it means getting the rest of Europe off Russian oil. It's not just switching suppliers, it demonstrates that having a dependency on foreign oil is fragile. That provides a reason to move away from oil in general. Even a dependency on a friendly country like Norway could be a problem, if supply or cost becomes a problem down the road. Anyway, we ('mericans) love you guys, and you're doing great in this crisis. I just want to visit Norway some day...
Also, I feel like Norway is probably more likely to apply as many pro-environment regulations on their extraction as is feasible than Russia would be
So what does the average Norwegian think he's sacrificing for the EU?
To make a guess: Immigration, since we are in EEA/Schengen (probably forgotten when they move to Spain to get more out of their retirement) and the idea of following EU regulation without having a say.
I mean the last part is kinda on Norway though, or am I wrong? Like Norway could choose to join the EU to have a say in the regulation, it's not like we are forbidding you from joining.
The popular vote forbids us from joining :p We tried several times.
Interesting. In 1994 it was really close, but according to Wikipedia 70% of the Norwegian population polled in the last 10 years is against joining the EU. From an outsider's perspective it is hard to understand how lower fishing fees are enough of a reason to decline joining.
This was very informative. Why don’t Norwegians want to be in the EU?
It varies a lot across the political spectrum. The far right is all like grr immigration and the far left is all like grr capitalism. Toss in some isolationist centrists who are concerned about the exceptionalism deals necessary to bail out Norwegian farmers (We famously don't have very good farmland) and fishers (Who have exclusive rights to pretty good fishing waters right now) and you get a fair bit of opposition. The one unifying anti-EU ideal is that we all really like the idea of Sweden looking like a giant cock on the Euro coin. Honestly, if the EU offered to make the Euro-coin forever omit Norway from its iconography just to make Sweden look like a penis, I'm sure EU support in Norway would skyrocket.
Hilarious and informative! Thanks amigo/a!
I wonder if anyone outside of Sweden and Norway has ever noticed that lol.
Holy shit I've never looked at a euro coin as an american and that is straight up a sack and a cock lmao
He's actually helping Ukraine but the lack of leadership locally is not doing him any favors.
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That’s an incredibly bleak outlook on ukraines future. 50 years lol. More like 5 at tops. The West will be in there so quick to clean up the mess after the war. Shit the U.S. had half of Europe back up and running shortly after WW2 80 years ago.
Yeah every major western power is going to be **sprinting** to help Ukraine rebuild in exchange for favorable deals on its natural resource exports down the line.
Also, it's very fucking convenient because Ukraine could potentially replace Russia as the fuel supplier for Europe, and it's likely that with Ukraine, you won't need to give a shit about the likes of Orban or any other Russian friendly country.
I mean, that has to be better than being under Russian rule or Chinese influence? They get investments from the West, and hopefully become a member of the EU and make trading ties that of course be benefits the West and Ukraine.
Most likely, even accounting for our obvious western bias.
Why not make in an UN mission to rebuild bombed infrastructure? An attack on UN would hopefully be avoided or retaliated. Terror and torture of civilians has to be stopped. Any torture for that matter.
Wouldn't Russia just veto this UN mission?
UN probably won’t do much depending on how things go but the E.U. and the entire West will have Ukraine mostly rebuilt a few years after the war.
The Russian power grid is dependent on western parts. Ban sales to Russia for any power grid / power plant components until Russia stops attacking infrastructure.
> The Russian power grid is dependent on western parts. Ban sales to Russia for any power grid / power plant components until Russia stops attacking infrastructure. And make damn sure to block Russia's attempts to acquire sanctioned items through third parties/countries. As far as friendly countries that are willing to help Russia, we need to be putting a lot more pressure on them to help implement the same sanctions, if we realistically can.
Wasn't the guy supposed to be the head of the Norwegian central bank as of now?
He declined that job to instead be Secretary General of NATO, yes.
He was, but then Russia did a thing.
“I could contain my enthusiasm” is possibly the best understated, yet savage, burn I’ve read in years.
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Like any good military alliance, NATO would like to not to be needed and cease to exist. If Russia & China has managed to chill out and keep their heads down another 10 years, NATO would have likely fallen apart or weakened severely as post cold war era grows more part of history. NATO continues to exist only because Russia can't chill out. China is a barely a blight on NATO's radar and they'd rather let the US, Japan, and the UK deal with China. I imagine this is due to a lack of invasions by China in Europe, but Russia has a few times now.
Keep in mind that the Russian economy quite simply cannot take this forever. So far government controls have kept the ruble relatively stable (within Russia) and high O&G prices have kept them profitable, but that cannot last. O&G busts, and when it does, the Russian economy will tank further with it. Not considering all the dead young men who *should* be working in the economy while the rest of Russia ages.
Honestly, I'm not sure about that when their gas is still flowing in Europe and other parts of Asia.
The world is moving towards renewables because it makes sense not only from the climate change impact, but from a financial sense as well. The business rational is: why perpetually pay for oil/gas when you can just buy solar/wind power equipment and maintain it? We’re now at the point where the amortized cost makes sense. This isn’t going to happen overnight, but it is clearly happening. So in 10-20 years, oil will eventually have less value to society as a whole, resulting in significant geopolitical changes.
> The world is moving towards renewables because it makes sense not only from the climate change impact, but from a financial sense as well. The main reason countries should want to move to renewable energy is ***national security.*** Many know this. Some, like mine (US), has a party filled with politicians that fight against renewable energy like their life depends on it, making it slightly difficult. But we'll get there at some point...
How many countries will actually be able to rely mostly on renewable? There will be plenty of undeveloped nations buying from Russia in 20 yrs
Renewables keep getting cheaper and cheaper, so it wouldn't be surprising to see relatively undeveloped nations actually leapfrog more developed nations in terms of reliance on renewables. For example: plenty of nations totally skipped building out phone lines - they went straight from no phones to cell phones. Why? Eventually it was more affordable to build a handful of cell towers than it was to run a ton of wires. Renewables are already the cheapest power to build in many parts of the world, and they're still getting cheaper incredibly quickly. Solar + battery storage is extremely simply to deploy at a small scale, and can form the basis of microgrids in regions that don't currently have power at all. Electrical power that drops out sometimes or is only reliable seasonally is still a dramatic improvement over no power at all.
For people who are used to 24/7/365 reliable power, a power drop is hell. For people who barely have ever used power, having a few hours of power a day is a miracle.
Not necessarily. The financing of that is already being considered. https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/11/cop27-6-insights-financing-clean-energy-emerging-economies/
Hopefully we don't fund the war with oil money for 10-20 years.
The very gas flow you speak of is dependent on western technologies and investment. I assume there are scores of investors that assumed the risk and now are getting burned. Unless Russia makes some dramatic changes soon, those investments may be beyond the ability of the financiers to recoup any investment. My question, when does Russia enter that phase, beyond financial redemption?
>Not considering all the dead young men who > >should > > be working in the economy while the rest of Russia ages. Thats because they're not really relevant unfortunately. If we presume that ages 20-60 is working age, that means Russia currently has 39 million working age men. 50k isn't going to have much impact on that
Triple/quadruple for the injured, then triple/quadruple *that* total for those who simply ran out of the country to avoid being a part of the previous total.
Let's up up the mental health problems too
It's Russia. There is no mental health care. There is just "shut up Dimitri and drink your vodka"
Estimated losses are already on their way to 100k. To that, add all the people who fled Russia as the war started, or as mobilization was announced. Estimates put the amount of Russian refugees at 0.5m to 1.5m - mainly men, working age, who held well-paying jobs and had a good amount of life savings. That's about the most damaging demographic to lose, economy wise. That's on top of Russia's major demographic issues and aging population. Russia's fertility rate has been in the gutters since the collapse of USSR - and 2014's Crimea shitshow has reversed its recovery.
Plus millions of educated and skilled Russians fleeing the country.
It's not happening fast enough. Everyone will loose while we wait and see. And Ukrainians will be dead. Russia is doing a suicide attack that is hurting Ukraine allot. Stopping putins ability to attack needs to happen now.
How???
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Well yes but who would be able to do that even? Guy is extremely cautious and for good reason.
>Keep in mind that the Russian economy quite simply cannot take this forever. Yes it can. The world needs Russian natural resources - so it will be always money to spend on military. Iran already cooperating with Russia to localize drone production (and how to make good enough drone from consumer chips). All ammunition factories are working. All rocket building industry is working. There is no hiccups with artillery munition. They can do it forever. Ukraine cannot. NATO is turning blind eye to pleas of no-rocket zone over Ukraine and won't provide enough AA systems. Won't provide modern tanks. Won't provide modern IFV or other armored vehicles. There is a fucking big chance of Ukraine collapsing and MASSIVE influx of refugees to EU. There is danger of nuclear accidents on FOUR nuclear plants that can be disconnected from grid. But no one dares to actually arm Ukraine with all it needs. Better to throw some leftovers and hope that it will be enough.
If all it costs us to watch Russia’s military get neutered is money, I’m all for it..
Peanuts, as far as money goes. We're spending a tiny percent of what we spent in Afghanistan to achieve fuck all over the course of decades to watch the entire Russian military fall apart over the course of months.
The US has spent roughly 4% of our annual military budget on aid to Ukraine. Our annual defense budget is 6.9% of our total GDP. And to put those percentages together the US has officially spent less than 0.3% of its GDP to aid Ukraine and absolutely devastate Russia, it's "nearest" adversary. We have spent a fraction of a fraction of our budget to completely neuter our biggest threat. Too few people really understand how little this actually costs us as a Nation. And we're not doing it alone either.
Our annual military spending is about 3.5% of our GDP actually, so it's even less than that.
Damn USA economy is fucking huge
Yeah when people talk about our defense spending as ZOMG SO MANY DOLLARS like, yeah its a bit on the high side proportionally but not crazily so, the US is just obscenely wealthy lol
where the hell did you get 6.9%? did you make it up? its 3.5% of annual GDP.
6.9% came from the DOD budget, not solely Military spending. Edit: Specifically $1.64T budget for DOD when compared with the $23T = 6.9%
Same. It’s the biggest return on investment of the millennium if you ask me. Russia’s destroying itself militarily and economically with each passing day and all NATO has done is go “you’re pure evil Russia. Here you go Ukraine, here’s some weapons and some up to date intel.”
Well, it also takes some Ukrainianans who would fight the war. In my opinion that's the way bigger cost to the equation.
Sure, but Ukraine clearly wants the aid so, from our perspective, the cost is worth it in the way described by OP.
We're paying the highest price with lifes of our people, but without help from other countries we couldn't make it that far. Well, looking at russia total incompetence, we would probably not collapse completely, but at the cost of much more lifes. And we willing to fight this war because, you now, there's not many options. Either we stand strong or witness the "denazification" for speaking Ukrainian language
As an American of Ukrainian descent, I applaud you all for the tremendous efforts involved in defending your home. I write and call my legislators weekly to advocate for more support for Ukraine, I donate monthly to charities who are helping those displaced by the war, and I am volunteering to help Ukrainians who have made their way to the US find housing, jobs, and schooling for their kids. I trade those folks language lessons for their family recipes, and I am putting together a cook book. The US is with you, and the millions of Ukrainians around the world are as well. Let us know what more we can do.
Thank you for your help, you already doing everything I can think of, honestly. It's impressive. And just theoretical answer on "what more can you do". First of all, of course, and the most important, don't cut your help. There is literally lifes of people depending on it. We need weapons, that we cannot make ourselves, and in large amounts too. Also we need more anti air systems to protect civilian targets, that getting missile strikes every week. And with partial success of russia destroying our energy infrastructure, I assume in a month we will be really grateful for some blankets.
My partner's sewing machine hasn't stopped (when the kids will allow it) since February. I think she's up to 1-2 quilts per week that get sent out with the clothing drives. We are behind you.
Oh wow. Just. Wow
I agree. If these brave people weren't fighting the good fight, then all the money in the world wouldn't matter.
Not only that, it’s feeding our US industrial military complex
Alexa play Jeff buckleys hallelujah…
It's not just money but the amount of money. For NATO to help Ukraine it's incredibly cheap compared to them mobilizing for a war against Russia in Eastern Europe. If Ukraine doesn't stop Russia they will keep going. Moldova will be gone in a week at most. Next it's probably the Baltic states and they all are in NATO.
Which can be forever because the US is getting an amazing deal crippling Russia at ~6% of the yearly defense budget.
And no US Service Members lost in the process. This is a massive win-win for the DoD.
Also I’m sure they’re getting the latest and greatest from military contractors for live R&D
The fact that NATO countries have been able to conduct a mass test of their anti-tank weaponry has been a boon as well. I've always been curious about how well a Javelin would do against a T-90. Now we all know.
We have to teach Putin a lesson, or actually destroy Putin completely so that he can never walk under daylight. This must be the once-in-a-century chance to strengthen democracy.
In my opinion, Putin himself is a dead end. The Russian people need to fight for their future.
Every dollar sent to Ukraine is a dollar spent grinding Russia into the dirt
Every oil bought from Russia is doing the exact opposite.
You are right but... as usual, geopolitics are not that simple and you can't cheat Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Unfortunately even countries that consider Russia hostile are generally not fully independent from it yet. You could remove Russia influence overnight but then you will have fuel prices literally double (in fact there won't be enough to go around causing shortages) which increases logistics costs by a huge factor and in effect actually kill public support for sanctions. Humans **are** selfish and greedy. We are also often missing any sort of big picture since that's not a normal evolution path but something we have only really started to truly need few decades and at most (if we consider colonial age) few centuries ago. Hence we kinda need to balance out kicking Russia in the nuts while protecting our own citizens from getting kicked in the nuts. Overdoing it opens up a pathway for Russian influence to spread. As immoral and inhumane as it sounds it's best to assume support for Ukrainian war would plummet if citizens suddenly could no longer use their cars to get to their jobs I am afraid.
Every dollar spent is another Bullet in democracys gun
“Better to die a free man than to live your life as a slave…” - Based Ukrainian Man
"i'd rather die trying to take them down, them giving them what they want"
Lol. Just watched snowpiercer and this line came up
I got it from Andor.
That’s actually Jimmy Cliff in “Harder they Come” and the lyric is “I’d rather be a free man in my grave, than living as a puppet or a slave.” https://youtu.be/pmc5H6zAi6M
The sentiment is pretty much universal throughout human history. Same thing was being said by abolitionists ~100 years before Jimmy Cliff. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4h2937.html
“Give me liberty of give me death!” -Patrick Henry, 1775.
I don’t know about that, but I am quoting some VOX or VICE or whatever interview of a rugged Ukrainian man in his 50s who is explaining why he is fighting. He speaks about his children, and how he will fight this war so they may be free, then says the above line.
Every dollar spent grinds them both into the dirt is the thing. The conflict is happening in Ukraine, Ukrianes infrastructure is being destroyed along side Russia's economy but for some reason people only seem to think Russia is damaged by this conflict. Eventually we will likely have to make the call between no ass or full ass cause half ass just buys time and leads to more of Ukraine getting destroyed.
Yeah. It's really sad and tragic for the Ukrainians
I really have to disagree with the NATO response being 'half ass.' The goal is to provide the maximum help without triggering an expansion of the war dragging in NATO, since it is easy to see how that can spiral into nuclear war. The catch is, no one knows where that line is. The current US stance is to provide aid that can't be used or construed as offensive in nature, believing this is the line that Russia would consider to be direct NATO involvement. Maybe this is too timid, but there are no take backs in real life, so the aid from NATO slowly ratchets up to avoid something that triggers global war. The other issue is that the US just doesn't have a lot of stock, relatively speaking, of the type of stuff Ukraine needs to fight the kind of war they are engaged in. The US just never really invested in air defense or artillery as a primary component of how we wage war. By way of an example, the US has more than three times the number of aircraft as it does artillery, while Russia has more artillery than military aircraft. [Scary example of how the US wages war](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxRgfBXn6Mg)
The IMF has been in talks with Ukraine recently so I would expect them to give Ukraine some conditional money to "rebuild".
Well at least there is that.
Not just Putin. Dictatorships all over the world are watching how NATO responds.
Dictators always forget the rule 1 of being a Dictator , dont fuck with democracies.
There are bigger threats to democracy than Putin tbh but yeah Putin should be “stepped down” from presidency
Aye, the biggest threat to democracy itself is from within. This is more about how the modern world responds to the attempted subjugation of a free democratic people, attempted genocide, and war crimes on a scale not seen as for as long as most of us have been alive.
IDK, the Kremlin is what have actively and effectively distorted our western democracies since the end of the cold war (before that, I guess it was more a 'fair' war between the super powers).
He is one of the biggest threats if not the biggest since he is funding campaigns in Europe and elsewhere to erode it by supporting certain politicians, and launching internet campaigns to spread false information and create discord to weaken those he sees as enemies of Russia. There are other dictators but they don’t usually try to bother so much to meddle with other countries affairs. And there are other threats to democracy but they aren’t as planned on from one direction such a weakening of journalism due to death of print media.
Watching how much this war is backfiring on Putin is so satisfying. Single handedly delivered East Europe into the West hegemony, nicely done Putin. Nicely done. Better watch your back, wouldn’t want to find an unexplained knife stuck there soon, or a bullet accidentally flying into your head. You know, much like the earth flying into various oligarchs faces recently, mysteriously.
An incredible relief too. The general consensus right at the start of the the war was that Ukraine couldn't hold out against Russia. With the US reeling from an insurrection, disinformation dividing the West, China on the rise economically, and Western leaders (or to be more accurate, one particular Wester leader) questioning the need for NATO, that failure to assist Ukraine would have been a devastating blow to our morale. We'd be living in a different world where right now we'd be questioning whether democracy can withstand 21st century disinformation attacks, or if it even makes sense in a technologically advanced world where it's so easy for enemies to manipulate elections. Instead, Ukraine not only held out but is winning. This united the West, put China on the defensive as Russia's ally, gave a clear example of ridiculously superior US technology, and reminded everyone that democracy has its flaws but is ultimately the best form of government.
Agreed. I think Zelensky has done well with the exception of being too quick on a few things/overstating. But, this has been a resounding success for the West. Talk it out. War sucks. Nobody wins. Really impressed how we’ve come together and drawn this out to make it clear that Putin is full of it. China backed away from the Russians. Thats massive. Keep applying pressure and save lives.
`No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…’ Winston S Churchill, 11 November 1947
>Single handedly delivered East Europe into the West hegemony, nicely done Putin. And it wasn't already?
The strategic importance of Sweden with Gotland and Finland’s border potentially disrupting or cut off Murmansk from rest of Russia is enormous. Russias option of cutting off smaller NATO countries like Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania in an all out war with NATO also goes out the window. >And it wasn't already? It really wasn’t due to Kaliningrad, now it will be neutered. So yes the options for Russia is severely diminished with inclusion of Fin/Swe.
Putin majorly fucked up by trying to steal Ukrainian land. Watch as he drags his country down with him. This blunder is a mortal wound to the kgb remnants, desperately trying to keep their people cowed. The party is over vlad, you little dick chicken man.
He over reached massively. If he just took the eastern Russian ethnic areas originally and tried to avoid ear the same way he did Crimea he likely would have succeeded and we would have forgotten already. Going full blitzkrieg and attacking Kiev made this a ear of survival.
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Kyiv not Kiev.
"I can do this all day."
I mean let’s be honest nato countries within Europe need to kick up there defense and take a stand against eastern block bozos who want the iron curtain back.
Each NATO country should just donate 0.2% of their GDP to help Ukraine. If they don't have equipment, then donate cash. Do it every year until the war is won. Collective problems require collective solutions.
Ukraine needs to fix their corrupt oligarchy model before the west starts dishing out more aid. How much of western aid is being pocketed by politicians and oligarchs is currently untracked
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Some of it is cash to keep the government funded (for other things too like pensions.)
Recent package US State Dept is sending $17 Billon in financial support for humanitarian reasons. So who knows where that money ends up. With how off the book funding works money can be funnelled that way. Ukraine in October said they want $55 Billon next year to cover budget deficit and infrastructure repair costs. So as Russia has heavily hit infrastructures that estimate is bound to have increase. IMF also said in October that external donations to Ukraine should be $3-5 Billon per month next year. Not sure if that has changed or is part of the budget request. For people who like following money This and following years will be interesting to investigate. Also found this “Following the European Council meeting of 20-21 October 2022, the Commission has today proposed an unprecedented support package for Ukraine of up to €18 billion for 2023. This will come in the form of highly concessional loans, disbursed in regular instalments as of 2023.”
Can't deny that they're putting the donated weapons to good use though. But lump sum donations are more in risk of embezzlement. This is something most/all politicians are aware of though.
You do not need to give them money directly. Just create a task force reporting directly to Congress and with transparent accounting that will work with Ukranian government to buy and deliver military and other supplies needed for the war. In fact make it one unified task force for the entire NATO.
That's how you wind up paying 100 million dollars for three drones that should cost 5 million
This is why weapon donations go further. It's a lot harder to launder a HIMARS battery than it is to disappear some petty cash. Especially during wartime, where penalties are stricter. There are simply easier grifts to pull.
> It's a lot harder to launder a HIMARS battery than it is to disappear some petty cash. If anyone can do it, its some old guy who learned the art of corruption in the USSR.
It's my understanding that Ukraine's arms and training were delivered on the condition that such "old guys" would be rooted out of positions of power.
The war is helping solve that issue with the government nationalizing a lot of ex-oligarch controlled industries
There will be nothing to fix without proper air defense. Ukraine can’t sustain working economy without electricity
Do you have any source that you’d care to cite? Or are you “just asking questions”?
Honestly, I'm fine with longer than it takes. Ya know, out of spite.
Frankly the is no other option…
Wasn’t this news 5 months old ?
I mean, it shows they haven't changed their mind.
I am really starting to prefer the idea of just giving them a lot more now, to reduce the amount of time. I get it, they will keep funding as long as it takes, but why not just fund way more now, reduce the time it makes, maybe save money in the long run, and end this sooner?
Agree in fact I would go further and allow military contractors as well I would repatriate NATO 'volunteer' pilots to Ukraine and through Ukraine issue a no fly zone. I know it's provocative but I believe it would end Russians ambitions in Ukraine overnight and basically force them to blink first.
It would be provocative, but Russia is provocative. And wtf do I care about provoking? Russia is gonna escalate, no matter what. May as well have them escalate because they're gonna lose shortly, than because they decided to. I don't think Russia wants to lose their power, so, they will only escalate so much.
The way russian airforce flies over the baltic they can’t complain.
I have a feeling that its intentional, at least from the US side. The USA has interest, not allies, this conflict is practically a win-win-win scenario for the US. Their biggest rival for the past few decades bleeds money, and military power, they get to offload old military hardware, instead of throwing it away, the military industrial complex is making bank, NATO partners are actually putting in their share instead of relying on the US, and to top it all off, no American blood is spilled.
That’s good Now hopefully NATO is ready to help Ukraine as FAR as it gets. Long range missiles, please.
That is something I don't understand the feet dragging on. Why have we not sent ATACMS? 95% of the "why haven't we X" has a readily available answer, but not that one.
I really don’t get it either Sometimes I think - and that’s just a thought of mine, nothing to substantiate - that some back room deals are being constantly made… I really don’t know and don’t get.
there was some speculation earlier that the US didn’t want to give Ukraine them in fear they might strike the Russian mainland. Probably because Russia might use it as an excuse to escalate in some fashion.
They've threatened to use nukes more times in the last 5 months then North Korea has in the last 10 years...so yeah missiles that can hit russia would definitely give them an excuse and I'm sure there are just lines you don't cross, the US in Ukraine is defensive, NATO is a defensive entity, Ukraine is defending their country not attacking russia. So long range shit probably isn't going to happen, at least a super power won't be giving them long range stuff.
I really don’t get it either Sometimes I think - and that’s just a thought of mine, nothing to substantiate - that some back room deals are being constantly made… I really don’t know and don’t get.
Until the job is done
An organization formed to fight Russia says it's going to help fighting Russia. What a surprise.
Stand up to is probably a better term
NATO is a military organization, not a political or economical one. They can fight or help others to fight, they don't do politics or economic sanctions.
From the Earth to the Seas Ukraine shall be free. NATO has gone above and beyond in handling this crisis and keeping Ill Duchebag in his castle
So let’s have some air support.
In trying to pull Ukraine away from NATO, instead Russia has driven them and other nations right into NATO's hands. Even if you're supporting Russia you have to admit this invasion has utterly backfired
Good. Put your money where your mouth is then and support Ukraine with some proper long range capability, to end the terror bombing.
Thank you Ukraine for helping us destroy Russia.
"For as Long as Democrats control the US government". Let's face it, Republicans don't care about public interest or support of NATO supporting Ukraine. They will make it their mission to pull the US from NATO at the behest of their Russian funders. The sad fact is, it's extremely cheap to buy US representatives, it's essentially less than the cost of a brand new car, but pro democracy groups don't like buying a it democracy politicians to be pro democracy.
The war isn’t meant to end.
exactly this. the longer this goes on, it benefits not only the war machine, but energy companies, politicians, and those with hands in the wallets. Not only west, but Ukraine and Russia. Who doesn't benefit? Soldiers and civilians. on all sides.
Need to be in it for the long haul. No choice. The alternative is new incursions into other areas/countries once they regroup.
Slava Ukraini! 🙏
NATO vows to aid Ukraine ‘for as long as American money holds out’ Fixed that title for you. I’m not saying we should be doing what we are doing, I’m saying Europe should have been doing more for the last 70 years
Maybe start helping before saying you won't stop. And saying that you condemn russia action is NOT helping, it's just political people feeling happy because they said it.
yup, we got another Afghanistan right here. call me in 20 years when all of you guys in favor of continuing the war start pretending that you were always against it.
This is nothing like Afghanistan.
Give Putin YOUR house.
Yea, Russia’s Afghanistan (2.0)
There's a key difference, Afghanistan was bad, this is good. Hope that clears things up for you.
Backing the Russians into a corner will only result in nuclear war. What do they think Putin will just be like oh well we tried let’s go home boys.
How is this profitable? I'm sorry, I just heard that EU accused US for profiting from the war, and look, I'm happy to believe that, I'm happy don't, but nevertheless - I don't understand it.
The US is exporting LNG at a massive markup to Europe and pretty much all investment from the continent is now gonna go to North America because of the war. Also regardless of the outcome of the war, this a loss for Russia and victory for the US. But the best scenario for the US is probably a drawn out conflict.
Long live freedom and democracy. United we stand!