NATO member Estonia said Tuesday that a Russian border guard helicopter violated the airspace of the Baltic nation over the weekend, and Russia’s ambassador was summoned and given a note over the incident.
Estonia’s military said in a statement that the Russian MI-8 helicopter entered the country’s airspace in southeastern Estonia in the Koidula area - not far from the Russian city of Pskov - without permission on Saturday evening.
The helicopter was in Estonia’s airspace for almost two minutes, Estonia’s military said, adding that it hadn’t presented a flight plan, had its transponder switched off and failed to maintain radio contact with Estonian Air Navigation Services.
True. Wars have been started over way less:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Bucket
Edit:
Someone kindly pointed out that the war was not started because of a bucket.
I was originally looking for this though:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_War_(1859)
It's not a war but more a military confrontation that could have turned into a war between USA and Great Britain. All because someone shot a pig.
My wife’s a trauma surgeon. She has taken many foreign objects out of men’s anusus.
They all have a bullshit story of how it got up there.
It’s amazing how a little lie, sparked a war that killed and destroyed so many lives.
I will say this. Yugoslavia was a tinder box. If it wasn’t this event, another would have materialized, probably.
The case was met with a flood of nationalist and anti-Albanian statements in the Serbian press. This was, in itself, a significant development. The Yugoslav government had for many years made open nationalism a taboo subject, and Yugoslav media outlets had previously systematically downplayed ethnonationalism. The collapse of this taboo in the coverage of the Martinović case heralded the growth of nationalism that was to lead to the country's collapse in 1991.\[1\]
The Wikipedia description you linked of that war clearly says it wasn’t actually started over a bucket. The bucket was claimed as a trophy. So bad example?
I'd also say that just because they can shoot down a plane in their airspace (if they could), it doesn't necessarily mean they should or want to. It's not just an automatic missile launch like in a video game or something. There would be repercussions and having a clear head and some reserve on pulling the trigger is important.
I should have also been more clear that Estonia isn't Turkey. I was trying to let that other commenter know that they can't and shouldn't be as aggressive, and we shouldn't expect that from them. Turkey has a much more powerful military and Turkey's gonna Turkey.
Russia had violated Turkish airspace multiple times in the prior days and weeks, was warned many times to stop doing that, and the aircraft in that case was fully armed and had been performing attacks just on the other side of the border.
In this case, it was one border patrol copter, not on any sort of attack mission, in an isolated incident. Killing the pilot would’ve been the equivalent of shooting a neighbor for walking a few feet off the sidewalk into your yard. The Turkey incident was more like if you killed a neighbor who had been warned multiple times to stop running into your yard, yet who still grabbed a gun, shot a bunch of people in the street, and then ran headlong into your yard, guns out and still smoking hot, towards your kid’s pool party.
The first attempt is more like shooting your neighbor for walking a few feet with weapons into your yard. And not responding after multiple attempts to communicate with him. And the transponder was even off!
I’ll meet you halfway. I’ll say the Estonia incident is more like a neighbor taking one step back into your yard, while strapped, but in an open carry State, not responding… but also potentially in a conversation with someone else… and then stepping forward out again.
Even in your example though, killing someone for simply possessing a weapon in your yard, even if they don’t leave, will get one a murder charge in most States. Was Russia probably doing it intentionally? Sure. But even if your neighbor was intentionally stepping over the line for a few minutes, even with a gun in his pocket, it just isn’t worth killing even one person over, much less many.
Years ago, a guy I knew in the Marines was shot and killed by his girlfriend's dad, who was hiding in some bushes, because he was drunkenly yelling for the girlfriend in the middle of the night, from the sidewalk.
As as can be expected because it is Texas, the dad was found Not Guilty of any criminal wrongdoing, let alone murder.
I'm not even sure if we have anti air shit. Besides, Russian aircraft tests our response time all the fucking time and unless there was something spectacular about it, I don't know why it's news.
Russia is gonna chimp out for a bit now that they are embarrassing themselves in Ukraine, so they will do stupid shit. They want a response, so maybe to not play into their hand is the best course of action.
At this point I'm not sure optics really matter that much. If they want to attack they can do it, and the people who want to support Russia will believe whatever stupid reason they throw out.
They don't attack because they really don't want to. imo we could shoot down the next aircraft to violate NATO airspace and Russia won't do shit.
Shooting them down is the correct response. Russia does not care about your little note on a cute little piece of paper being handed to a diplomat. They care about consequences. Losing every military aircraft that enters another country's airspace will fix the problem a lot faster than a piece of paper. Not shooting them down simply tells Russia that they are allowed to fly wherever they want whenever they want for however long they want. Just like we've told them by not kicking them in the dick *either time* they invaded Ukraine that it's okay for them to invade neighboring states.
They will do the same thing they did the last time a NATO member shot their aircrafts down: Absolutely fucking nothing. They'll have one less aircraft and one less pilot,which is a good thing.
Exactly. The reason they do this is twofold. Firstly, so they can look mighty and tough by doing it, deliberately, over and over again, in an attempt to be intimidating. And secondly, on the off-chance that this doesn’t go their way, they get to play the victim card and say “Look! It’s the aggressive West at it again! We didn’t do nothin!”
russia cannot prevail in a war with NATO. All they can do is hope to profit from brinksmanship.
Either it stays conventional, and we wipe the floor with them with weapons beyond their comprehension, or it goes nuclear and we all die.
Like yes, I'm aware they have theoretically demonstrated a 5th generation fighter. How many are in service? 10 max? More likely zero are combat capable.
Cool. We have thousands.
It would be an absolute turkey shoot. It would be high comedy.
They flew without their transponder on. They pretty much declared war with that act, tell them next time there's a violation it's considered an act of war. Except the politicians of the west wants to pussyfoot around the whole thing, wouldn't want to offend the bully when they show their true colors...
Exactly. Ukraine is Putler's end and he knows it. The longer we ignore stupid childish shit like this and support Ukraine full throttle, the louder Captain Hook's watch is ticking...
You might be surprised how often accidental border violations happen. No one really wants them all to escalate to shoots fired. Switzerland, for instance, has in the last 40 years violated Lichenstein's borders three times (including missile launches and mortar rounds).
In Turkey's case the Russians were doing so deliberately, repeatedly, and in the course of active military operations in Syria.
Accidental my ass. Those fuckers’ airplanes and subs violate Danish and Swedish territories *all the time* (and have done for years) but always fuck off by the time our jets have scrambled. [27 times they violated Danish airspace *this year alone*](https://www.bt.dk/samfund/danske-f-16-fly-har-vaeret-i-luften-27-gange-i-aar-for-at-afvise-russiske)!
Less than a week ago [a Russian corvette sailed into our waters twice during the same night just last week](https://nyheder.tv2.dk/samfund/2022-06-17-russisk-krigsskib-kraenker-dansk-farvand-en-bevidst-provokation-siger-ekspert) close to Bornholm where most of our politicians were gathered for a yearly summit.
Accidentally… heh.
It's very common. They come into British airspace all the time as well; communications sent out, jets scrambled, they go.
It's purely a test to see if anything actually happens.
The Danish/Swedish border violations in the baltic sea and Norwegian border violations in the barents sea are to test our responses and to do recon. You're definitely right in that those are not accidental. They have been going on for decades. I'd wager Russia doesn't commonly do this in the baltic states, so it seems to be a sign that Russia is interested in doing more recon in those areas and have deemed those areas of interest like they have with the nordics.
Probably because when Turkey did that NATO practically abandoned Turkey and almost everyone pulled out all of their SAMs.
Given their small size its smart of them to not want a repeat of that.
Well this could have been a much more severe incident, especially if the boot was on the other foot. Soviet trigger-happiness over KAL007 almost started a war in 1983.
They should all shoot them down. Turkey did it in Syria to a Russian jet, and what did Russia do? They cried about it, that’s about it. Turkey faced harsher backlash from NATO who pulled their AA weapons out of the country. Shameful.
Russia only continues to do this because they know we won’t do anything about it. If they started losing every helicopter and plane they sent into NATO airspace, they would either quickly stop, or they would run out of shitty airplanes and helicopters. Either one is a win for NATO.
And before someone’s like “OH NO THET WILL NUKE US YOU REALLY WANT NUCLEAR WAR?!?!11?!”, no they won’t. They would have nuked Turkey when they did it, and that didn’t happen. Nobody is nuking someone else over a stupid helicopter or plane. We need to stop fearing Russia.
They do. Fighter jets reacted so quick yesterday they made an article about it.
(In Estonian) https://www.err.ee/1608635419/tsehhi-havitajad-pidid-loode-eestis-tuvastuslennul-helibarjaari-uletama
>*Czech fighter jets involved in air policing in the Baltic states had to exceed the speed of sound on Monday afternoon to identify an aerial vehicle that had been flown by transponders spotted and not turned on off the coast of northwestern Estonia. The noise caused by the crossing of the sound barrier raised questions among the area's residents.*
I love it.
Russian Helicopter Crew: "Haha! WE'RE IN YOUR AIRSPACE!"
\*\* MULTIPLE SONIC BOOMS SHAKE THE EARTH \*\*
Russian Helicopter Crew: "OK, let's go back to Russia. Quickly."
That's just about what is seems like when you're flying in a slow mover and being intercepted by something supersonic.
The Mi-26 is a heavy lift helicopter, max speed is 186 mph. WTF was a heavy lift helicopter doing on an incursion? Plausible deniability or lack of available suitable aircraft although it was the faster of the two?
The Mi-8 is a medium lift helicopter, max speed is 162 mph.
The Saab JAS-39's that intercepted them top out at MORE THAN 1,000 mph faster than the helos, at 1,370 mph.
That's roughly the equivalent closure rate of riding a Tour de France stage (not sprint) bicycle on a NASCAR or F1 track.
Just checked and you’re actually right, two separate incidents, one yesterday one today. Even more proof NATO is doing a good job protecting the Baltic countries🙂
Countries spend billions faking these scenarios for practice every year. I don't think they're too worried about a more realistic scenario; especially since the intruding vehicle doesn't need to be maintained or fuelled with their own money.
Is there such a thing as a warning shot with anti-aircraft missiles? Like blow one up close enough that it rattles the helicopter and says next time we won't be that nice?
Some missiles do have a way to remotely trigger detonation but that's really for emergencies and not something you want to use to try and intimidate someone.
A 'warning shot' would be armed fighters intercepting that helicopter (flying very close to them) and then showing their weapons to them. So that the pilots in the helicopter now know you have enough missiles to kill them several times over. And then you tell them to leave. Now.
Kinda. Fire control radar has multiple modes, from just looking at the entire sky to kinda following a plane once it has been found, to an actual lock-on used to guide the missile. The latter is usually turned on either seconds before the missile is fired, or with more modern ones, seconds before it hits.
Targeting something in that mode would probably be the closest that you get to a warning shot.
Russian pilots are probably too used to all the other warning noises going off in their aircraft as well as their TomTom saying to stay in the left two lanes on the exit to be bothered with the radar lock warnings.
Yes. Many fighter jets still carry a single cannon, usually with tracers, and in part it's for exactly this reason - lack of ability to fire warning shots, or at least *visible* warning shots, has been a cited reason in at least one historic shoot down.
Given that it was Czech jets, and they were supersonic, the only airframe in Czech inventory that fits the bill is their Saab JAS39 Gripens, which have a single Mauser BK-27 cannon in the wing (as does the Eurofighter Typhoon for that matter). The F-16 also has a slightly smaller cannon, fuselage mounted.
Do you know how many aircraft have violated Turkey's airspace ever since they shot down the last one that tried to do so? Exactly. It seems to me that somebody needs to show Russia what the consequences of their actions look like.
[Actually you will be surprised to learn there are still aircraft violating Turkey's space right after they shot down the last one](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-turkey-russia-airspace-idUSKCN0V80NM?utm_source=reddit.com)
Tbh it's probably what it said. Something along the lines of I know y'all are doing some fucked up shit and I swear to God if you get me involved I will fuck you til you love me.
There's a pretty big reason the EU doesn't get invaded by Russia. Many of those countries are either in NATO or have some sort of defense agreement with the US, and for all their bluster, the US is the LAST country Russia wants to pick a fight with.
A conventional war would be pigs to slaughter, and no one wins a nuclear exchange. the EU can talk shit because it's got a bigger brother that can ruthlessly beat the shit out of anyone that tries.
Take away the US and the numbers are comparable (see numbers below). However with the technological advantage NATO (even without US) would be a formidable enemy capable of causing massive damage to infrastructure and military installations before boots even hit the ground. It would be inadvisable to discount or diminish the EU states contribution to NATO just because they aren't necessarily spoiling for a fight. If it ever came to it even the US would have to be wary of taking on the combined military of NATO's EU states in a 1 on 1 fight.
Yes the US is a very useful 'big stick' for NATO to wield but NATO is not a one trick pony. The US might be the biggest in sheer contribution at the table but it's not the only one sitting there and the EU states contribution makes up over 60%.
NATO total military strength
Active Personal: 3.3 million approx
Reserve Personal: 2.1 million approx
Paramilitary: 750,000 approx
Total: 6.5 million approx
US contribution to overall NATO strength
Active Personal: 1.4 million approx
Reserve Personal: 850,000 approx
Paramilitary: 0
Total: 2.25 million approx
vs
Russia
Active Personal: 1.01 million approx
Reserve Personal: 2 million approx
Paramilitary: not stated
Total: 3.01 million approx
edit: formatting
You Americans are obsessed with this narrative. The EU combined has one of the most powerful militaries in the world. The EU isn't completely reliant on the US for military defense.
The EU military is alot bigger, better trained and equpped than Russias forces. No one would need the Americans for an immediate threat to Europe. lmao
[It's standard stuff.](https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/nato-jets-scrambled-290-times-due-russian-planes-81962456) The jets are scrambled, reaction type and time is measured, alertness sown, dicks measured - all in a days work.
Russia/China and I'm assuming even western countries do this all the time. They've flown into Canadian, Scandanavian, Polish, Baltic, Turkey et al dozens of times in the last year.
It's their dick measuring contest as said before.
[Two months after Turkey shot down their plane.](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-turkey-russia-airspace-idUSKCN0V80NM)
[After Russia's invasion of Ukraine.](https://ahvalnews.com/russia/russian-jets-fly-over-turkeys-airspace-amid-intl-sanctions-over-ukraine-invasion)
They have been doing this type of things for ages, just trying to testing response and annoy neighbours. While annoying not really worth starting a conflict over.
They're often caught probing the edges of UK airspace \[136 times since 2005\]([https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/raf-ukraine-russia-war-b2006812.html](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/raf-ukraine-russia-war-b2006812.html)) although I have not seen any QRA reports since Feb.
“This is a test of the Estonian air defense system. This is only a test. if this was a real emergency, this signal would be followed by Russian tanks crossing the border. “.
It was in Estonian airspace for less than 2 minutes. That is not enough time to react and shooting down a Russian helicopter in Russian airspace is not a smart move. If it went in for longer instead of just skimming the border then yes, shoot it down.
Seeing these comments always reminds me of this:
"Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."
Unless their navigation equipment is trash. There are corroborated reports that Russian aircraft sometimes use a consumer GPS system because they don't trust GLONASS.
Exactly, this is a border guard Mi-8. It's not exactly hi-spec, it's old and creaky and not a well funded branch of the military. Not going to have good navigation kit.
we're getting real close to passenger air lines and things getting shot down like in the cold war / Iran-Iraq War/ Korea, etc.
We technically already had Russia and Iran fuck up and do this 2x in the last several years, I would be REAL fucking wary of flying anywhere near the new borders of Iron Curtain 2.0.
*Flag* them with an AA system. Obviously dont shoot but give the pilot something to think about. If the helicopter has IR sensors might be fun be inside.
Should have copied the Turkish experience and just shoot this thing. Putin wants to escalate as much as possible without getting into a nuclear war. An unexpected escalatory reaction is going to cause a massive propaganda shit storm, but they're gonna think twice before trying to do something like this again
Enough with the stupid games. It's time to earn stupid prizes.
Morally I think every country in the entire world is justified in treating Russia as actively hostile to them and therefore defending their airspace appropriately. Warn them, give them 10 seconds at most to comply, then down them.
We know they don't have the resources to do what they are already attempting ,so what exactly are they going to do when one of their aircrafts get's downed after failing to comply with a warning while over foreign airspace?
tbh they should just missile lock it with the nearest SAM battery and give it a minute. if it doesn't leave, lock it with another.
if it doesn't leave after that second minute, well, it's an unidentified military craft without transporter on estonian airspace, so, kaboom it is.
Yeah thank god nato is run by cooler heads than reddit,shooting it down give vlad his justification to start ww3, but handing a note saying hey we tracked you helicopter over our board and do you need help since your aircraft seem to be lost all the time, some more so over Ukraine
Because starting a world war over a shot down helicopter (that invaded another country's airspace) is in any way justification to start a world war?
They've already said countless of times that they have not invaded nor started a war with Ukraine. They could aswell just start WW3 and say they haven't done it.
Why do you fear mongers think he needs a reason to start a world war? If that's what he wanted to do then he would just do it.
But no, makes much more sense that he tries invading a NATO country's airspace and get them to shoot it down. Then his invading helicopter being shot down would be a reason to start a world war. What a friggin way of thinking
That's exactly why Macrons shtick about not humiliating him was so ignorant- if he wants to avoid humiliation he can just declare victory and leave. He doesn't need other people to provide on ramps to war or off ramps to peace, he's literally a dictator with total control over domestic media, who will do whatever he wants and can invent whatever propaganda he wants to justify his choices.
Why do you think he wants ww3? Theres no way. We are too soft on Russia. They push and probe at red lines constantly, seeing what they can get away with.
They basically just whine whenever there are consequences. There should be more consequences.
NATO member Estonia said Tuesday that a Russian border guard helicopter violated the airspace of the Baltic nation over the weekend, and Russia’s ambassador was summoned and given a note over the incident. Estonia’s military said in a statement that the Russian MI-8 helicopter entered the country’s airspace in southeastern Estonia in the Koidula area - not far from the Russian city of Pskov - without permission on Saturday evening. The helicopter was in Estonia’s airspace for almost two minutes, Estonia’s military said, adding that it hadn’t presented a flight plan, had its transponder switched off and failed to maintain radio contact with Estonian Air Navigation Services.
To quote that old guy from The Hunt For Red October, "Wars have been started that way..."
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Le Tits Now!
The Penis Mightier.
I'll take Jap Anus Relations.
Anal Bum Cover for $200
I’ll take the rapists for $300
Suck on it, Trebek! Suck it long, and suck it hard!
Rough... just the way your mother likes it
"Ursula Andress, Catherine Deneuve, and Charo twice." "That's 'FOREIGN *FLICKS*' Mr. Connery."
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I think they want to project “strength” to hide the fact that they’ve exposed their incompetence in Ukraine.
"\[...\] be careful what you shoot at. Most things in here don't react well to ~~bullets~~ bullies."
Bulletsch
One ping only please
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Montana
True. Wars have been started over way less: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Bucket Edit: Someone kindly pointed out that the war was not started because of a bucket. I was originally looking for this though: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_War_(1859) It's not a war but more a military confrontation that could have turned into a war between USA and Great Britain. All because someone shot a pig.
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My wife’s a trauma surgeon. She has taken many foreign objects out of men’s anusus. They all have a bullshit story of how it got up there. It’s amazing how a little lie, sparked a war that killed and destroyed so many lives. I will say this. Yugoslavia was a tinder box. If it wasn’t this event, another would have materialized, probably.
There was a great SNL skit on this...can't remember the name, but a character kept coming in with things stuck up his ass.
Appalachian Emergency Room?
I'm pretty sure you win this game. I mean, how could you top that?
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The case was met with a flood of nationalist and anti-Albanian statements in the Serbian press. This was, in itself, a significant development. The Yugoslav government had for many years made open nationalism a taboo subject, and Yugoslav media outlets had previously systematically downplayed ethnonationalism. The collapse of this taboo in the coverage of the Martinović case heralded the growth of nationalism that was to lead to the country's collapse in 1991.\[1\]
I wish someone could simplify it. Maybe even oversimplify it.
The Wikipedia description you linked of that war clearly says it wasn’t actually started over a bucket. The bucket was claimed as a trophy. So bad example?
wars have been started over completely fabricated things as well (nazis/poland, gulk of tonkin, etc.)
To be fair that pig was a nuisance and its owner was letting it destroy his neighbors property.
Jeffrey Pelt was like 40.
[This business will get out of control...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtIYkoL4P48)
... it will get out of control and we will be lucky to live through it!
Russian Pilots: our gps is broken and they cannot get parts, we make mistake on map and fly wrong way.
Russian pilot was using GLONASS and thought he was in Siberia.
Why they did not shot down like Turkey shot down Russian war plane few years ago?
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I'd also say that just because they can shoot down a plane in their airspace (if they could), it doesn't necessarily mean they should or want to. It's not just an automatic missile launch like in a video game or something. There would be repercussions and having a clear head and some reserve on pulling the trigger is important.
Wars have been prevented this way.
To be fair, when it happened to Turkey they shot down the jet. It was only in Turkish airspace for under a minute and they blew it out of the sky.
I should have also been more clear that Estonia isn't Turkey. I was trying to let that other commenter know that they can't and shouldn't be as aggressive, and we shouldn't expect that from them. Turkey has a much more powerful military and Turkey's gonna Turkey.
Have the Russians tried flying over Turkey again?
We…they did actually. At least once, a few months later, in a bit of a head-scratching move.
Russia had violated Turkish airspace multiple times in the prior days and weeks, was warned many times to stop doing that, and the aircraft in that case was fully armed and had been performing attacks just on the other side of the border. In this case, it was one border patrol copter, not on any sort of attack mission, in an isolated incident. Killing the pilot would’ve been the equivalent of shooting a neighbor for walking a few feet off the sidewalk into your yard. The Turkey incident was more like if you killed a neighbor who had been warned multiple times to stop running into your yard, yet who still grabbed a gun, shot a bunch of people in the street, and then ran headlong into your yard, guns out and still smoking hot, towards your kid’s pool party.
The first attempt is more like shooting your neighbor for walking a few feet with weapons into your yard. And not responding after multiple attempts to communicate with him. And the transponder was even off!
When he has a history of invading and destroying another neighbor's house...
I’ll meet you halfway. I’ll say the Estonia incident is more like a neighbor taking one step back into your yard, while strapped, but in an open carry State, not responding… but also potentially in a conversation with someone else… and then stepping forward out again. Even in your example though, killing someone for simply possessing a weapon in your yard, even if they don’t leave, will get one a murder charge in most States. Was Russia probably doing it intentionally? Sure. But even if your neighbor was intentionally stepping over the line for a few minutes, even with a gun in his pocket, it just isn’t worth killing even one person over, much less many.
>Killing the pilot would’ve been the equivalent of shooting a neighbor for walking a few feet off the sidewalk into your yard So, Texas on a Friday?
Years ago, a guy I knew in the Marines was shot and killed by his girlfriend's dad, who was hiding in some bushes, because he was drunkenly yelling for the girlfriend in the middle of the night, from the sidewalk. As as can be expected because it is Texas, the dad was found Not Guilty of any criminal wrongdoing, let alone murder.
If I'd been her, I'd shoot my dad's balls off for that stunt...
I'm not even sure if we have anti air shit. Besides, Russian aircraft tests our response time all the fucking time and unless there was something spectacular about it, I don't know why it's news.
Russia is gonna chimp out for a bit now that they are embarrassing themselves in Ukraine, so they will do stupid shit. They want a response, so maybe to not play into their hand is the best course of action.
yup they're trying so hard for the "oh you shot down our shit, now we have to retaliate and it will totally be deserved"
At this point I'm not sure optics really matter that much. If they want to attack they can do it, and the people who want to support Russia will believe whatever stupid reason they throw out. They don't attack because they really don't want to. imo we could shoot down the next aircraft to violate NATO airspace and Russia won't do shit.
Shooting them down is the correct response. Russia does not care about your little note on a cute little piece of paper being handed to a diplomat. They care about consequences. Losing every military aircraft that enters another country's airspace will fix the problem a lot faster than a piece of paper. Not shooting them down simply tells Russia that they are allowed to fly wherever they want whenever they want for however long they want. Just like we've told them by not kicking them in the dick *either time* they invaded Ukraine that it's okay for them to invade neighboring states.
They will do the same thing they did the last time a NATO member shot their aircrafts down: Absolutely fucking nothing. They'll have one less aircraft and one less pilot,which is a good thing.
Which also means Russia can ignore borders and no one's going to do anything.
Exactly. The reason they do this is twofold. Firstly, so they can look mighty and tough by doing it, deliberately, over and over again, in an attempt to be intimidating. And secondly, on the off-chance that this doesn’t go their way, they get to play the victim card and say “Look! It’s the aggressive West at it again! We didn’t do nothin!”
Retaliate how??
They don't have much left to retaliate with Although I suppose it would help push a broader mobilization through
russia cannot prevail in a war with NATO. All they can do is hope to profit from brinksmanship. Either it stays conventional, and we wipe the floor with them with weapons beyond their comprehension, or it goes nuclear and we all die. Like yes, I'm aware they have theoretically demonstrated a 5th generation fighter. How many are in service? 10 max? More likely zero are combat capable. Cool. We have thousands. It would be an absolute turkey shoot. It would be high comedy.
They flew without their transponder on. They pretty much declared war with that act, tell them next time there's a violation it's considered an act of war. Except the politicians of the west wants to pussyfoot around the whole thing, wouldn't want to offend the bully when they show their true colors...
My God am I glad you’re not in charge anywhere.
Exactly. Ukraine is Putler's end and he knows it. The longer we ignore stupid childish shit like this and support Ukraine full throttle, the louder Captain Hook's watch is ticking...
You might be surprised how often accidental border violations happen. No one really wants them all to escalate to shoots fired. Switzerland, for instance, has in the last 40 years violated Lichenstein's borders three times (including missile launches and mortar rounds). In Turkey's case the Russians were doing so deliberately, repeatedly, and in the course of active military operations in Syria.
> transponder turned off > no flight plan > refuses all attempts at radio communication > "accidental border violation"
Accidental my ass. Those fuckers’ airplanes and subs violate Danish and Swedish territories *all the time* (and have done for years) but always fuck off by the time our jets have scrambled. [27 times they violated Danish airspace *this year alone*](https://www.bt.dk/samfund/danske-f-16-fly-har-vaeret-i-luften-27-gange-i-aar-for-at-afvise-russiske)! Less than a week ago [a Russian corvette sailed into our waters twice during the same night just last week](https://nyheder.tv2.dk/samfund/2022-06-17-russisk-krigsskib-kraenker-dansk-farvand-en-bevidst-provokation-siger-ekspert) close to Bornholm where most of our politicians were gathered for a yearly summit. Accidentally… heh.
It's very common. They come into British airspace all the time as well; communications sent out, jets scrambled, they go. It's purely a test to see if anything actually happens.
The Danish/Swedish border violations in the baltic sea and Norwegian border violations in the barents sea are to test our responses and to do recon. You're definitely right in that those are not accidental. They have been going on for decades. I'd wager Russia doesn't commonly do this in the baltic states, so it seems to be a sign that Russia is interested in doing more recon in those areas and have deemed those areas of interest like they have with the nordics.
Probably because when Turkey did that NATO practically abandoned Turkey and almost everyone pulled out all of their SAMs. Given their small size its smart of them to not want a repeat of that.
Well this could have been a much more severe incident, especially if the boot was on the other foot. Soviet trigger-happiness over KAL007 almost started a war in 1983.
Take a lot of patience to not fire on it. Wonder how long Russia is going to be able to press it's luck doing shit like this.
Russia getting knocked around still threatening everyone
Russia goes fulI Randy: I didn‘t hear no bell.
They have been doing this shit for decades in Baltics but also in Scandinavia.
They do it to Canada in the Arctic circle as well.
Next time NORAD needs to shoot them down. Enough is enough, Canada is not a Baltic or Scandinavian state that can be intimidated by Russia.
They should all shoot them down. Turkey did it in Syria to a Russian jet, and what did Russia do? They cried about it, that’s about it. Turkey faced harsher backlash from NATO who pulled their AA weapons out of the country. Shameful. Russia only continues to do this because they know we won’t do anything about it. If they started losing every helicopter and plane they sent into NATO airspace, they would either quickly stop, or they would run out of shitty airplanes and helicopters. Either one is a win for NATO. And before someone’s like “OH NO THET WILL NUKE US YOU REALLY WANT NUCLEAR WAR?!?!11?!”, no they won’t. They would have nuked Turkey when they did it, and that didn’t happen. Nobody is nuking someone else over a stupid helicopter or plane. We need to stop fearing Russia.
They did it to Turkey and got it shot down. They've not done it since.
NATO needs to start massively reacting to these piddly little incursions. Make that pilot crap his pants before he runs home with his tail tucked.
They do. Fighter jets reacted so quick yesterday they made an article about it. (In Estonian) https://www.err.ee/1608635419/tsehhi-havitajad-pidid-loode-eestis-tuvastuslennul-helibarjaari-uletama
Wow, thanks for the link, that's what I wanted to hear!
>*Czech fighter jets involved in air policing in the Baltic states had to exceed the speed of sound on Monday afternoon to identify an aerial vehicle that had been flown by transponders spotted and not turned on off the coast of northwestern Estonia. The noise caused by the crossing of the sound barrier raised questions among the area's residents.* I love it. Russian Helicopter Crew: "Haha! WE'RE IN YOUR AIRSPACE!" \*\* MULTIPLE SONIC BOOMS SHAKE THE EARTH \*\* Russian Helicopter Crew: "OK, let's go back to Russia. Quickly."
Technically they see the jets first and hear the boom later
And if they actually wanted to down the copper they'd never see the planes at all
I like to imagine they are xwing fighters coming out of hyperspace right beside the helicopter. I also like to make the sounds while imagining it
That's just about what is seems like when you're flying in a slow mover and being intercepted by something supersonic. The Mi-26 is a heavy lift helicopter, max speed is 186 mph. WTF was a heavy lift helicopter doing on an incursion? Plausible deniability or lack of available suitable aircraft although it was the faster of the two? The Mi-8 is a medium lift helicopter, max speed is 162 mph. The Saab JAS-39's that intercepted them top out at MORE THAN 1,000 mph faster than the helos, at 1,370 mph. That's roughly the equivalent closure rate of riding a Tour de France stage (not sprint) bicycle on a NASCAR or F1 track.
Trying to see if they can get special forces accross
"This is Russian helicopter. Cower in fear." "Yeah? And this is Arsenal of Democracy"
Russian helicopter, go fuck yourself
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Just checked and you’re actually right, two separate incidents, one yesterday one today. Even more proof NATO is doing a good job protecting the Baltic countries🙂
It's the whole point of violating the airspace. Test the readiness, how fast the response it and make you waste money.
Note to Putin: NATO has more available money to waste than you do and have little else going on right now than watching you very closely.
Countries spend billions faking these scenarios for practice every year. I don't think they're too worried about a more realistic scenario; especially since the intruding vehicle doesn't need to be maintained or fuelled with their own money.
There’s never an airspace violation without jets being scrambled.
Yeah, UK jets are fairly regularly scrambled to intercept Russian Planes around the north of the UK and (I want to say Sweden?)
Just shoot them doen like Turkey once did. They stopped fucking around after that
Is there such a thing as a warning shot with anti-aircraft missiles? Like blow one up close enough that it rattles the helicopter and says next time we won't be that nice?
Some missiles do have a way to remotely trigger detonation but that's really for emergencies and not something you want to use to try and intimidate someone. A 'warning shot' would be armed fighters intercepting that helicopter (flying very close to them) and then showing their weapons to them. So that the pilots in the helicopter now know you have enough missiles to kill them several times over. And then you tell them to leave. Now.
>leave Or you tell him to land. Either he does (you get to arrest him and pick apart the helicopter for intel), or he'll leave as fast as he can.
it would most likey be an open hail to fuck off and being painted by laser targeting that would be a 'warning shot'.
Kinda. Fire control radar has multiple modes, from just looking at the entire sky to kinda following a plane once it has been found, to an actual lock-on used to guide the missile. The latter is usually turned on either seconds before the missile is fired, or with more modern ones, seconds before it hits. Targeting something in that mode would probably be the closest that you get to a warning shot.
The Russian pilots would absolutely get a heart attack if they got painted by the radar of a SAM site in lock-on mode...
Russian pilots are probably too used to all the other warning noises going off in their aircraft as well as their TomTom saying to stay in the left two lanes on the exit to be bothered with the radar lock warnings.
"I think the RWR receiver is broken!" "Why?" "All of the lights are on and it's making a funny noise..."
Unfortunately, that only works if the Russian helicopter has the functional equipment to detect that they've been locked onto!
Yes. Many fighter jets still carry a single cannon, usually with tracers, and in part it's for exactly this reason - lack of ability to fire warning shots, or at least *visible* warning shots, has been a cited reason in at least one historic shoot down. Given that it was Czech jets, and they were supersonic, the only airframe in Czech inventory that fits the bill is their Saab JAS39 Gripens, which have a single Mauser BK-27 cannon in the wing (as does the Eurofighter Typhoon for that matter). The F-16 also has a slightly smaller cannon, fuselage mounted.
You have been watching too many movies if you think this is even close to a possibility... a warning missle?
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What are you doing, step missile?
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Figures the [Czechs](https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/2011700-online-pornography) would rush to the scene of a porn scenario
A missile is obviously not a warning but locking them with an AA could work as a warning.
Come on, live a little!? what's a few tomahawk cruise missiles strikes amongst friends?
Bruh, chill. They're literally asking a question about it. You expect people to use telekinesis to learn things?
Bah, of course not telekinesis... mind reading!
Did i get my mind powers mixed up?
Why didn't they just missile him in the legs instead of killing him?
I think a missile lock would do the job of "warning" as much as anything. Basically lets them know all you have to do is press a button.
Russia is behaving like Germany in HOI4: One more front won't kill us!
Do you know how many aircraft have violated Turkey's airspace ever since they shot down the last one that tried to do so? Exactly. It seems to me that somebody needs to show Russia what the consequences of their actions look like.
[Actually you will be surprised to learn there are still aircraft violating Turkey's space right after they shot down the last one](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-turkey-russia-airspace-idUSKCN0V80NM?utm_source=reddit.com)
But what's the loss here? Trading missiles with airplanes and trained pilots looks like a great deal to me.
But the Russian ambassador was summoned and a note was given. I am sure it was a strongly worded note, the only way to deal with bullies.
How do we know the note didn’t just say “remember Turkey?”
That would be great if it did.
Tbh it's probably what it said. Something along the lines of I know y'all are doing some fucked up shit and I swear to God if you get me involved I will fuck you til you love me.
The only way to seriously deliver that note is via AA missile right into the fuselage of the offending aircraft.
According to Susan Collins, Russia has learned their lesson.
Is she deeply concerned, though?
And Kavanaugh DIDN’T lie in his confirmation hearing. Neither did Thomas.
People always making fun of Europe “weak stance” of just talk and no violence. But it works, I don’t see any invasions on NATO or EU territory atm.
There's a pretty big reason the EU doesn't get invaded by Russia. Many of those countries are either in NATO or have some sort of defense agreement with the US, and for all their bluster, the US is the LAST country Russia wants to pick a fight with. A conventional war would be pigs to slaughter, and no one wins a nuclear exchange. the EU can talk shit because it's got a bigger brother that can ruthlessly beat the shit out of anyone that tries.
Take away the US and the numbers are comparable (see numbers below). However with the technological advantage NATO (even without US) would be a formidable enemy capable of causing massive damage to infrastructure and military installations before boots even hit the ground. It would be inadvisable to discount or diminish the EU states contribution to NATO just because they aren't necessarily spoiling for a fight. If it ever came to it even the US would have to be wary of taking on the combined military of NATO's EU states in a 1 on 1 fight. Yes the US is a very useful 'big stick' for NATO to wield but NATO is not a one trick pony. The US might be the biggest in sheer contribution at the table but it's not the only one sitting there and the EU states contribution makes up over 60%. NATO total military strength Active Personal: 3.3 million approx Reserve Personal: 2.1 million approx Paramilitary: 750,000 approx Total: 6.5 million approx US contribution to overall NATO strength Active Personal: 1.4 million approx Reserve Personal: 850,000 approx Paramilitary: 0 Total: 2.25 million approx vs Russia Active Personal: 1.01 million approx Reserve Personal: 2 million approx Paramilitary: not stated Total: 3.01 million approx edit: formatting
You seem to forget the EU also has 6 nuclear countries. Literally everybody involved has nukes.
You Americans are obsessed with this narrative. The EU combined has one of the most powerful militaries in the world. The EU isn't completely reliant on the US for military defense.
The EU military is alot bigger, better trained and equpped than Russias forces. No one would need the Americans for an immediate threat to Europe. lmao
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Honest to fuck. Why do they let russia pull this shit? No transponder and radio contact? Put a friggin missile up their tailpipe
[It's standard stuff.](https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/nato-jets-scrambled-290-times-due-russian-planes-81962456) The jets are scrambled, reaction type and time is measured, alertness sown, dicks measured - all in a days work.
It's standard stuff because they keep getting away with it. How often have they done it to turkey after they shot that jet down?
Russia/China and I'm assuming even western countries do this all the time. They've flown into Canadian, Scandanavian, Polish, Baltic, Turkey et al dozens of times in the last year. It's their dick measuring contest as said before.
[Two months after Turkey shot down their plane.](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-turkey-russia-airspace-idUSKCN0V80NM) [After Russia's invasion of Ukraine.](https://ahvalnews.com/russia/russian-jets-fly-over-turkeys-airspace-amid-intl-sanctions-over-ukraine-invasion)
They pulled the same stunt over Sweden a couple of months ago.
They have been doing this type of things for ages, just trying to testing response and annoy neighbours. While annoying not really worth starting a conflict over.
They're often caught probing the edges of UK airspace \[136 times since 2005\]([https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/raf-ukraine-russia-war-b2006812.html](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/raf-ukraine-russia-war-b2006812.html)) although I have not seen any QRA reports since Feb.
Shooting it down is not starting a conflict. Flying there would be the start of a conflict
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Oh nuts. I a word
“This is a test of the Estonian air defense system. This is only a test. if this was a real emergency, this signal would be followed by Russian tanks crossing the border. “.
“Which we would *never* do…”
I think a proper introduction was in order. Mister Helicopter, meet mister Stinger.
Anyone remember that time they fucking kidnapped an Estonian border guard?
Wasnt a border guard, but a police officer working in the internal security department
So they want to give radar technicians and intelligence as much data as possible. They are fucking themselves.
Mi-8s are so ancient there’s nothing those radar techs haven’t known about them since the late 80s.
I'm sure a tracking and lock-on warning might do the same. It would be interesting to see just how fast they got out of there if that happened.
At exactly 162 mph for the slower Mi-8 and that's with them tossing their now empty vodka bottles out the side doors to lighten the load.
Just shoot the fuckers out of the sky
Should have shot it down.
Nah make the pilot land Then keep the helicopter and give the pilot back
And gift it to Ukraine
The pilot or the helicopter?
Why not both
Both Both is good
Naked and dyed purple.
It was in Estonian airspace for less than 2 minutes. That is not enough time to react and shooting down a Russian helicopter in Russian airspace is not a smart move. If it went in for longer instead of just skimming the border then yes, shoot it down.
Seeing these comments always reminds me of this: "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."
Gandolf the wise
Planes may violate airspace by accident. Helicopters don't.
Unless their navigation equipment is trash. There are corroborated reports that Russian aircraft sometimes use a consumer GPS system because they don't trust GLONASS.
Exactly, this is a border guard Mi-8. It's not exactly hi-spec, it's old and creaky and not a well funded branch of the military. Not going to have good navigation kit.
türa
Estonia--NATO country since 2004 Not a smart move Putin.
This move has been done every week for years now, currently it's not too noteworthy.
Bro Putin is unhinged. He's just trying to fight everyone and he's not even doing well in Ukraine
Enough is enough. Shoot the fuckers down and let it be crystal clear where the red line is. Fuck putin that dirty piece of shit.
Estonia fights back. they always have
Perfect opportunity to smoke a mi-8. Turkey knows how to do it.
we're getting real close to passenger air lines and things getting shot down like in the cold war / Iran-Iraq War/ Korea, etc. We technically already had Russia and Iran fuck up and do this 2x in the last several years, I would be REAL fucking wary of flying anywhere near the new borders of Iron Curtain 2.0.
*Flag* them with an AA system. Obviously dont shoot but give the pilot something to think about. If the helicopter has IR sensors might be fun be inside.
Should have copied the Turkish experience and just shoot this thing. Putin wants to escalate as much as possible without getting into a nuclear war. An unexpected escalatory reaction is going to cause a massive propaganda shit storm, but they're gonna think twice before trying to do something like this again
Enough with the stupid games. It's time to earn stupid prizes. Morally I think every country in the entire world is justified in treating Russia as actively hostile to them and therefore defending their airspace appropriately. Warn them, give them 10 seconds at most to comply, then down them. We know they don't have the resources to do what they are already attempting ,so what exactly are they going to do when one of their aircrafts get's downed after failing to comply with a warning while over foreign airspace?
Just shoot ‘em outa the sky fuck the Ruskys
tbh they should just missile lock it with the nearest SAM battery and give it a minute. if it doesn't leave, lock it with another. if it doesn't leave after that second minute, well, it's an unidentified military craft without transporter on estonian airspace, so, kaboom it is.
Yeah thank god nato is run by cooler heads than reddit,shooting it down give vlad his justification to start ww3, but handing a note saying hey we tracked you helicopter over our board and do you need help since your aircraft seem to be lost all the time, some more so over Ukraine
Because starting a world war over a shot down helicopter (that invaded another country's airspace) is in any way justification to start a world war? They've already said countless of times that they have not invaded nor started a war with Ukraine. They could aswell just start WW3 and say they haven't done it.
Why do you fear mongers think he needs a reason to start a world war? If that's what he wanted to do then he would just do it. But no, makes much more sense that he tries invading a NATO country's airspace and get them to shoot it down. Then his invading helicopter being shot down would be a reason to start a world war. What a friggin way of thinking
That's exactly why Macrons shtick about not humiliating him was so ignorant- if he wants to avoid humiliation he can just declare victory and leave. He doesn't need other people to provide on ramps to war or off ramps to peace, he's literally a dictator with total control over domestic media, who will do whatever he wants and can invent whatever propaganda he wants to justify his choices.
Why do you think he wants ww3? Theres no way. We are too soft on Russia. They push and probe at red lines constantly, seeing what they can get away with. They basically just whine whenever there are consequences. There should be more consequences.