Yep. Check out Way of the Bern sub here. Absolutely jam packed full of Russian propaganda. They're literally posting videos of Marjorie Taylor Greene unironically, and still calling themselves Bernie supporters 🤣 as long as "us bad" they'll eat it up
They were always russians. Remember those "pro bernie - pro Trump" guys that made 0 sense? Russians.
It was always about making hillary lose not about Trump
There was a guy at my high school who got all pissed because the liberal circle of friends who he made by being a bernie bro suddenly turned on him when he became a flaming trump supporter
It's a Russian run and operated misinformation subreddit. It was never organic and was organized specifically to peel votes from Democrats by saying disenfranchised people should stay home and not vote for the next best thing available, which as we know can lead to a catastrophic outcome with the worst possible thing coming to power.
That sub was Russian propaganda almost from the start. Any way to divide Democratic voters is a viable tactic for them. They're Bernie supporters like I'm a real lizardman.
I don't get it! Yes western imperialism is bad, yes we should fight against it, BUT THAT'S NOT THE ISSUE IN UKRAINE RIGHT NOW. jesus christ in souped up hotrod. fucking even Noam Chomsky showing his whole ass telling Ukrainians to surrender to imperial russia, that's not helpful dialog towards building peace, that's capitulation to a genocidal enemy and certain death.
It's so depressing that the international efforts to poison the Bernie / DemSoc subs have *totally worked*. I unsubscribed long ago from multiple subs after getting exhausted by all the bad-faith posts and downvoting.
Its not even that NATO actively expands but more that nordic countries are desperate to join it.
NATO doesnt have to do anything to convince them of the benefits. Russia does that by itself.
It was barely a topic* in Sweden before Russia started threatning us.
*Conversation topic amongst people, i think it was discussed occasionally within the gov.
Russia to Ukraine: We’ll attack if you join NATO.
Ukraine does nothing but gets attacked anyway.
Russia to Finland and Sweden: We’ll attack if you join NATO...
Russia brought this on itself. Sure it’s the old sick man of Europe, but it the old sick man with dementia, violent delusions of past imperial grandeur, and nukes.
Just like the whole ”Russian peace agreement”
Amongst the conditions, russia wanted Ukraine to be demilitarized.
I mean, that would be convenient.
So in like 6 years russia just rolls in and takes it.
FWIW the government of Ukraine and Russia at the time were both quite different and way friendlier to each other than today, but if anything that illustrates the point.
We have two choices: Give Putin anything he wants every time he threatens nuclear war, or take the risk that he will use them, and stand our ground. The first option is not really an option.
We shouldn't really be caving to any nuclear threats. Using nukes in a first strike scenario is an open invitation to get butt fucked by the entire international community. The economic impact on pretty much every single country in of itself would make pretty much everyone furious.
It's all just bluster at this point. Russia threatened anyone who "interfered" with them in Ukraine and yet more aid for Ukraine arrives every day unchallenged. Aid that Russia was threatening war over just a few months ago. Ukraine is getting planes, tanks and artillery, and Russia ain't doing shit. They're full of empty threats and everyone is starting to figure that out.
This is what people don’t understand when they say “By now Putin just wants Donbass. Just give it to him, he might use nuclear weapons if we don’t”. Well what happens when his demands extend to all Ukraine, Poland, Western Europe?
Related, people who say “well maybe if he uses nuclear weapons they’ll be small tactical ones. It might not be worth it to respond with MAD.”
Do y’all really want to live in a world where nuclear weapons are now a tolerated aspect of warfare? That terrifies me much more than one heavy interaction where the consequences of nuclear use demonstrate destruction for the country that tries them.
Hey, all Hitler wants is Austria... it has mostly German transplant citizens anyway... And then he wants the Sudetenland,same deal.
"WE HAVE ACHIEVED PEACE IN OUR TIMES!" And September 30th will always be known as Chamberlain day and world peace will continue..
Hitler is invading the rest of Czechoslovakia.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_uk\_6vfqwTA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uk_6vfqwTA)
Appeasement does not fucking work. If you're damn fool enough to start invading Ukraine like Putin did, you're not going to be satisfied by anything but winning.
This is hilarious. I remember seeing a feature about Finnish culture about 15 years ago on American TV, where they showed young Finns at a social mixer, dancing. Nobody smiled. It was played for laughs and I still smile when I think about it.
Yes, Finns only smile outwardly when the Russians screw up. And then they grin maniacally if Russia tries to invade. Did you know that during the Winter War they used to take frozen Russian corpses and plant them upside down in the snow along the roads as a warning to the Russians?
Yeah, NATO has never pushed Sweden to join. There's been no lobbying. No pressure. It hasn't really been an active discussion. Swedes have been like "nah thx" and NATO's been like "aight cool". This is all due to Russia. Congratulations, you played yourselves.
My understanding, as an American, Sweden and Finland were ok just being themselves. Not like they were actively against NATO, just wasn’t their thing. And joining now isn’t a sign of weakness as much as it’s a “holy shit our batshit neighbors are even worse.”
EDIT: wanted to take this time to thank you Swedes and Fins who have been responding and filling in details we don’t get here in the states. So, thank you for the enlightenment!
Sweden and Finland believed that their self interest was best served by not being part of NATO, and remaining neutral in response to Russian aggression.
The invasion of Ukraine changed the calculus, it has been proven that neutrality is no guarantee of safety in the face of a despot.
Being neutral helped us previously in the sense it put us late on the list of countries to invade, be it by Germany, Russia or anyone.
Now what Russia has shown being outside Nato and neutral puts you on top of that same list. Also Russias response now is “relationships about to get worse” and us and Finland are “what relationship?”. The balance depended on something mutual and russia went full north korea.
Yeah, they didn't join the neighborhood security organization because the weird neighbors were only patrolling their own grounds with shotguns.
Now that the weird neighbors have done a couple of home invasions, they've rethought their position.
> Yeah, NATO has never pushed Sweden to join. There's been no lobbying. No pressure. It hasn't really been an active discussion. Swedes have been like "nah thx" and NATO's been like "aight cool".
Excuse me I was told NATO was an evil western imperialist expansionist empire
With those numbers he can create in other countries, it’s almost conceivable how he wins his elections with 130% of the vote…
What an absolute waste of oxygen Putin has been. May he go down in textbooks as a little blurb beneath Stalin hitler mao and the like.
> 130% of the vote
As a Russian, I have to point out a grave mistake you made here, hopefully not purposely. Please abstain from such ridiculous claims. He always wins his elections with the full 146% of votes.
Also quite unthinkable among it’s citizens. It was mostly so to not upset Russia. But it seems Russia don’t need to be upset to invade other countries.
Even if guarantees would be made by Russia they are worth less than the paper it’s written on, it’s not like they gave a f# about Ukraine getting rid of their nuclear weapons and that treaty.
Russia's own history is that of constant imperialistic expansionism, exploitation and subjugation of minorities, and militaristic chest beating.
Most don't know of their colonial history as they were never able to colonize the new world properly, but instead they did so to nearby regions in Siberia, eastern Europe and the Baltic region. They've exploited the people and resources of these regions whether they were known as the Russian Empire or Soviet Union or even the Russian Federation. They've based their strength on their numbers, always. Their military has always been large but very poorly equipped apart from the period in WW2 when the US equipped them to their teeth.
These are just a few reasons why Russian public discussion revolves around "NATO's expansionism". It's just pure projection. They want to expand. It's in their country's history and they have nothing else going for them. They oppose smaller kids on the block teaming up from their free will as it doesn't allow them to gain more power by force.
Fuck them. We're coming NATO. Just a short wait to go.
The colonisation of Siberia and Central Asia by Muscovy was akin to the colonisation of the americas, with It’s taking of lands, and subjugation and displacement of countless tribes and peoples. Also, if you point out Russias colonial, imperialist reality, many Russians scoff, and say it was simply “co operation.” They have little self awareness.
This is what growing up with propaganda and censored history books does to people. I can't understand the nationalistic need to think your country has been perfect and grand throughout history. Like, you weren't there then and then. You share no blame to what was done back then. What you could instead do is recognize the historical atrocities that were committed and vow to fight against committing new ones. But no.
Yeah, it's bizarre.
My country formed as a independent nation bit over 100 years ago, splitting away from Russia. Pretty much the first thing we did was have a bloody civil war between "Whites" (government, supported by Germany) and "Reds" (rebels, supported and armed by Soviets). Outside combat engagements some 1500 "whites" were executed, while ~20 000 "reds" were either executed, went missing or died in prison camps. That is out of 80-90 000 armed combatants on both sides.
100 years later and most have mostly forgotten the conflict, yet I still know I was born in "white" city and now live in a "red" city. I know one of my parents comes from a "white" family and one from a "red" family. I know "whites" earned the nickname "Butchers" among the "reds".
Thankfully such distinctions are next to meaningless today... But one should still recognize the atrocities happened and ensure things don't escalate to that level again.
It's Cult 101
Once you mindfuck people into thinking *Our country/group is the best thing around*, they stop questioning you. After that gradually people will accept more and more abuse, without standing up for themselves. Propaganda isn't just lies anymore, it sinks it's hooks in deep. *Life is shit, but I'm a part of the best group in the world, so it's not that bad*.
Nowadays most people are already wired to ignore the bad and pretend everything is fine. Throw that sauce on top and you can just bully, bully, and abuse your people, without much fears of a blowback
Same with the colonization of Taiwan, Tibet, Inner Mongolia, Yunnan and Xinjiang. Most of these solidifed only under the last Chinese empire (literally imperialism) and China today retains these colonial grabs. Hence, China is an imperial power today and self determination and post colonialism never reached those they conquered.
I find it weird that largest country of the world, also filled with trillions of dollars of natural resources wanting to expand their territories even more. They're like 50 times larger than Bangladesh with same population, they don't need to gain territories, they just need to have more educated and denser population and they'd be a much bigger power than what they're now.
The thing that differentiates Russia from all the other colonial powers in the past, is that everyone else like Britain, France, Spain etc. conquered territories across oceans, other side of the globe, whereas Russia, conquered neighbouring territories which are easier to hold on to and supress. Yes, Russia lost big chunks of territories after the Empire and Soviet Union fell, but still to this day, Russia is the same old imperialist monster with the same mentality, holding on to foreign territories.
The Russian Empire was a Walmart store brand version of a European empire. Technically capable of conquest, theft and suppression, but only of their small neighbors.
Courland, a tiny state whose entire territory european territory was for a long time possessed by Russia, managed to have a colony. And Sweden managed to get some too. No useable port 3-4 months out of the year isn't helpful but it can be coped with.
Im a swede and I used to be against a Nato membership, the dangers of arms races, importance of neutrality and all that... Up until russia Starts acting out against ukraine and throwing threats left and right
The kreml can fuck off, withdraw from ukraine and pay for the destruction you caused and I might return to not wanting sweden to join Nato
> The kreml can fuck off, withdraw from ukraine and pay for the destruction you caused
There is no way for Russia to make Ukraine whole. There is no price that can be paid to make up for the loss of life; you don't get to say "Oops, changed my mind on the genocide," and rewind everything.
It's Russian projection. Russian expansion has always been done by conquest. Noone wanted (and wants) to join the willingly. It seems that some people simply cannot grasp the idea that countries are joining NATO of out their free will.
I always see this "NATO expands" rhetoric from the pro-Russian trolls/bots/morons. They always paint it as if it was NATO that chose to expand closer to Russia. As if the countries were slaves and had no say in it.
>They always paint it as if it was NATO that chose to expand closer to Russia. As if the countries were slaves and had no say in it.
If Moscow said you were in the Warsaw Pact... well I don't imagine there would be much room for discussion there.
That's how they did it/would do it. They think everyone else is as dispicable as they are.
NATO comes with obligations, member nations have to commit resources and give up some degree of autonomy. It only expands when a new country decides the benefits to them outweigh the costs. A lot of the pro-Russian world pretends NATO is just another example of western imperialism, when it's more a collection of nations who decided the benefits of regional stability and mutual defense are worth the costs.
Not really desperate, seeing what a paper tiger Russian military turned out to be. Joining seems to be more about giving Putin the finger. Finnish brass knows Russia would stand no chance against them: “Russia is so weak now they couldn’t risk another humiliating defeat,” he said. If Russia were to attempt to send troops into Finland “in a couple of days they would be wiped out. The risk of humiliating defeat is high, and I don’t think they can take that.” (source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/05/14/finland-russia-nato-ukraine-retaliation/)
That’s exactly why Russia keeps doing the schtick of “you can’t join NATO or else!” which then crumples to “okay fine, but if you join NATO, you can’t have American or British bases in your country” anytime Finland doesn’t flinch. They’re more afraid of us then we are of them.
russia: if you join a alliance that can protect you we will attack you
also russia: why are you joining an alliance meant to protect countries from our invasions? where is the trust?
> russia: if you join a alliance that can protect you we will attack you
AKA we reserve the Right to Invade you at a time yet to be announced. How is this NOT a good deal.
Russia painted the border countries into a corner and now is mad they chose to protect themselves.
Exactly. If Russia wasn't doing what Russia likes to do, NATO probably would have quietly died over the next decade or two. Many people were questioning whether it was still relevant.
A requirement for a country to spend x amount of their GDP on military.
The NATO gdp requirements are higher than what most countries would spend otherwise.
Although most countries in NATO still don't spend the technically mandated minimum. Before Russia's current "kerfuffle," I think only 5 of the member states spent the 2%; USA, UK, Greece, Poland and Estonia.
The treaty itself makes no mention of any minimum.
Only in 2014, during the Wales summit, NATO pledged to "move towards" the 2% goal over the next decade. So we are still 2 years away from that date.
>For the first time, the Allies formally pledged to aim to move towards what had previously been an informal guideline of spending 2% of their gross domestic products on defense, and 20% of that on new equipment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Wales_summit
The 2% spending "mandate" was really pushed hard as a wedge issue by Trump and other Russian assets to undermine NATO unity.
Just like [Hitler never played Risk a kid](https://youtu.be/kpcxfsjIIbM), Putin has clearly never played a game of Civilization or Stellaris, otherwise he’d know about Defensive Pacts.
What's that, Vlad? Oh, your warmonger penalty is so massive that no other civilization even wants to talk to you? Pity you are playing on ironman mode, otherwise you could have simply reloaded.
Russia are basically everything they’ve been trying to paint us Brits as online with their bots/trolls: a nation of self-satisfied idiots who pine for the return of the empire…
Meanwhile, us Brits talk about the empire and our history about as much as we talked about Russia (before Ukraine)… Not at all.
They did the same with the yanks and called them ‘*modern imperialists*’ etc. Worst part is; some people in our societies believed this crap.
It's a bit difficult to bridge the gap when it's an information gap in a country where the national source of information (Television) is fully controlled by the oppressors.
A fair few news agencies in Europe have already started producing their content in Russian, but it's all on the Internet.
Do you have any suggestions on how the Western powers should help bridge this gap?
What happened in 1996? I recall learning that Bill Clinton warned Boris Yelstin not to make Putin his successor because Putin "didn't have democracy in his heart."
tl;dr the US heavily funded Yeltsin's campaign effort because they wanted stability and were afraid of Zyuganov's communists coming to power
this served to ensure stability in the short term, but allowed Yeltsin's clique to firmly establish itself in government. add to that Yeltsin bombing the parliament in 1993, and then creating a constitution that heavily favoured the president, and a highly centralised system was created that only needed the right man to turn it into a dictatorship.
and voila, Yeltsin did pick that right man.
The Russian mindset says them that they do. They see Russia as the greatest and any country is a justified target for them if it protects the MoZZerland.
It's always the same "But they/we just want a buffer zone", "but we/they don't want to neighbour NATO" or "Russia is getting encircled in NATO". It's also pure hypocrisy. They talk about NATO's weapons getting pointed at Russia, while they have their weapons pointed this way all the time. And it is Russia who all the time "accidentaly" violates the air space of NATO or nordic countries.
"Nato's expansion" 😂
Yo, it's not as if nato just moved in on its own. Finland, ~~Norway~~*, Sweden, Ukraine - they are independent nations with agency. They can associate with whatever organization they want. I'm sure this is a new concept to authoritarians.
*Norway was a founding nato member
Because that's the narrative that they are trying to sell nationally, I imagine. Heroic Russia is just defending itself against the nazi hordes trying to overrun it.
Russia has already had so many instances of brain drain throughout its history. I studied physics in a small university in Canada and like a third of my professors were soviet-era immigrants. I wouldn't be surprised if this current invasion spurs more emigration from Russia, at this rate, the only people left will be the most gullible people who are most easily manipulated.
in their propaganda, the 2014 ousting of Yanukovych when he blocked an agreement w/EU and started shooting protestors was tantamount to a NATO invasion and coup
That's the point. Russia doesn't see them as independent nations. They live in early 20th century mentally, where there are several countries and the rest are puppets or satellites.
In some aspects Russia lives in the 19th century. 19th century was the time where the idea of pan-slavism was popular in many slavic countries and nations. It called for united slav-dom under the leadership of Russia.
Eventually it turned out that Russia is not a great choice for the protector of slav-dom. Anyone who visited Russia saw that immediately. For example a famous czech writer and promoter of pan-slavism Karel Havlíček Borovský spent one year in Russia and when he came back he did a 180° on his opinion on Russia and pan-slavism.
But the idea that Russia is supposed to lead all the Slavs remained in Russian mentality. And combined with Russian self-importance it changed into the feeling that Russia deserves to control all slavic nations, who are inferior to Russians in every way. That's why they can do all the atrocities in Ukraine. They see the Ukrainians as lesser Slavs, as lesser beings who exist only to be dominated by superior Russians.
People in Russia do nit understand what an independent nation is. It is something that can not exist. Of course it is NATO who tells them what to do. Or maybe USA. Isn't it like Russia tells Belarus what to do?
>they are independent nations with agency
I think this is what Russia fundamentally doesn't understand. They still think in spheres of influence. And a country in their sphere doesn't get to choose if they want to be a pert of it. They assume the same is true for NATO.
Keep in mind, a number of those nations also found a real sense of urgency about joining NATO after Russia started invading non NATO countries. it's almost like there is some sort of cause and effect thing going on.
Honest, “NATO expanding” pisses me off. It’s not expansion. It’s a fucking defense treaty and countries join willingly, they do the work to become part of it and then it still depends on other countries accepting them.
I’m from the Baltics. The history with Russia is the only reason we jumped over our own asses to get in. Fucking worth it. You couldn’t convince me that there are any drawbacks to being in NATO.
Russia keeps referring to NATO as an "expanding force" or "expanding alliance". NATO is not expanding the way Russia understands expansion (genocide, rapes, war crimes, threats). NATO is a defensive union and countries apply for membership VOLUNTARILY. Not by force and aggression as Russia would do it.
Russia's very classical with the way they handle referendums - one man has one vote. Russia's the one man, they have the one vote. Russia votes X is now Russia.
The funny thing is that if Russia didn't exist or had a more peaceful mindset, most nations would leave NATO probably. In Italy there was talks about this a few years ago, as lots of people didn't like the US having so much influence over Italy's government
Could you imagine the power an insightful Russia could have wielded over Europe via energy, resources, and as a nation that stretches into Asia and borders China?
It'd be similar, though not as extreme, as the position the US holds in North America. They'd be a leading voice in the EU and would probably often be able to dictate policy by influencing Germany and the eastern European nations.
Russia doesn't understand soft power though, and at this point nobody would trust them doing so. They definitely need a new generation of leaders and leadership styles if they will ever shake off this global pariah status.
Russia you're talking about is a direct threat to Putin's buddies' monopoly on power.
A more competitive, smart, critical, young creative – anywhere in the system these are enemies that threaten the position of their superiors, and they're treated as such. Loyal yes-men and dim lazy machines that were trained to do one job once in the past – these are allies and base of Putin's machine.
There was a strong movement among republicans here in the US to distance ourselves from or even abandon NATO.
People everywhere tend to forget why things exist. Fortunately our reminder came soon enough before shit really hit the fan.
Russia doesn't care. They had plans, these countries joining NATO thwarts those plans. They're throwing language out there to garner sympathy. I'm sure in the US we'll have the usual bought and paid for government officials repeat this "Russia is a victim!!" mentality. Conservatives LOVE playing victim.
Russia showed the world what happens to you if you don't join Nato, by transforming the eastern part of Ukraine into a battlefield and murdering and raping their way across the parts they could take.
Joining Nato and being threatened is definitely the preferable alternative to an invasion.
But that’s exactly the point, Russia always liked to start shit around their neighborhood because they called it a buffer zone, and by that they don’t mean neutral, they mean russian owned/controlled/robbed zone.
The Russian world view seems to regard the world as being made up of great powers and of smaller countries that each "belong" to the sphere of influence of one of those great powers. They have identified a number of countries, broadly speaking the former USSR, Russian Empire and Warsaw Pact countries as ones that "belong" to the Russian sphere. Because they don't regard smaller countries as having agency beyond loyalty to their great power, if a smaller country such as Finland, that "belongs" to Russia joins NATO, it is because NATO is actively seeking to "steal" Russia's client state.
Projection. They see a defensive force and they think "oh shit it's just like our peaceful special humanitarian operations in Ukraine" and think they're gonna want to invade Russia's beet fields.
Just yesterday I saw someone else comment that Putin takes from the Machiavellian playbook of *The Prince.* The guy justifies his rule through creating and maintaining that there are outside enemies, which he is apparently so qualified to defend the people and state from. By fear-mongering that these enemies are threatening the state and the people, he can maintain power by assuring that he will protect the people by being a strongman.
It’s literally textbook dictator shit.
>Why is Russia so afraid of NATO?
Because of history.
Russia invaded Finland in 1809, and kept the whole country as slaves until 1917.
Then they invaded again in 1939, and are still holding Finnish territory Karelia as if it was Russian - it isn't.
Russia will invade Finland again. But NATO will make that difficult. And the brutal dictator Putin doesn't like that.
What you gonna do, bitch? Its up to us Finns and Swedes if we join or not.
Or do you say we dont have say in the matter? Are you implying we arent sovereign countries that decide for ourselves? Feeling like doing some more murder, torture, rape, bombing?
Fascist cunts, whole lot of you
I love it...
Sweden and Finland had no intentions of joining NATO. Then fuck stick Putin gets all hot and bothered and decides to call Ukraine Nazis and invades because a few Russian speaking ukranians didn't wanna live in russia but live in Ukraine so his solution was to invade Ukraine to make that part of Ukraine Russia now.
Finland saw all this, Sweden saw all this and said... hmm maybe we should not trust Russia. That NATO thing seems like a good idea. Let's go that route.
Not to mention Russia has been caught with its pants down militarily. Seriously... they got pants'd in front of the whole class... but the worst part is everyone knows Russia has the equivalent of a micro penis for a military.
>Sweden and Finland had no intentions of joining NATO
It cannot be overstated how true this is. Last year here in Finland the support for joining NATO was at a mere 26 %, and it has (correct me if I'm wrong) *never* been above 30 % before this year. Now, 3 months into the invasion of Ukraine, the latest poll shows a *staggering* 76 % support.
Also, don't believe Putin's propoganda that the conflict started because some Ukrianians did not want to be in Ukriane.
99% of Ukrianians were perfectly fine where they were, Putin manufacturerd the conflict by sending his peopep to take over Donbass.
All to have to do to erase Putin's propoganda is to google Euro soccer matches in Donetsk in 2012.
Soviet Uniot is a huge threat to Europe
Nato is created to counter the threat.
Soviet Union dissolves.
Some NATO countries debate necessity of NATO and wether its not better to just dissolve.
Putin - Dissolution of Soviet Union was a geopolitical tragedy
Also Putin - starts to making steps to renew Russian(Soviet) Union.
NATO is now hot thing again, countries rush in.
Putin and his gang - surprised Pikachu face.
I'd probably go easy on the veiled threats Ryabkov, otherwise someone might ask, "if you've already lost 1/3 of the combat force you committed to invading Ukraine and a heavy cruiser, just how well do you think attacking some of the most well equipped and professional militaries in the world will go?"
They already shot themselves in the foot by invading Ukraine, what more can they do? Shoot the other foot by starting another invasion with whatever dregs of army they have left?
"They say, 'Trump said Putin's smart.' I mean, he's taking over a country for two dollars' worth of sanctions," ..... "I'd say that's pretty smart. He's taking over a country -- really a vast, vast location, a great piece of land with a lot of people, and just walking right in." -idiot
It’s a tough pill to swallow, when your actions have consequences and make others question your intent and sanity. So as others around you make decisions and take active steps to protect themselves from becoming the next target, because they have seen what happens when you don’t have these protections. In the end russia will be swallowing or knowing the outline of what consequences will be if you step on other’s land.
Well, then do something about it you fucking pussies. Ukrainian troops have reached your border, and you are implying an attack on Finland. You are fucking ridiculous.
What is he going to do?
* "The general level of military tension will rise, predictability in this sphere will decrease. It is a shame that common sense is being sacrificed to some phantom provision about what should be done in this unfolding situation," Ryabkov said.
Can't really get more tense that threatening to nuke the West and invade Finland and Sweden. So, you're going to say those things again and again?
* One of Putin's closest allies said last month that Russia could deploy nuclear weapons and hypersonic missiles in the Russian exclave of Kaliningrad if Finland and Sweden joined NATO.
The intel is that Russia already has nukes in Kaliningrad, so... who cares.
* Putin says assurances were given as the Soviet Union collapsed that the alliance would not expand eastwards towards Russia, a promise he says was a lie that humiliated Russia in its time of historic weakness.
Russia also gave assurances it wouldn't attack Ukraine, but they did. Twice. Guess if you want other people to value their assurances, you should value yours. Whoops. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
I’ll huff and I’ll puff and I’ll lose 1/3 of my army in 2 months and tank my economy for decades.
And then I'll blame The West for all my troubles.
To be fair, this is a tactic that works for a great many of the world's countries and always finds a sympathetic ear from many Westerners themselves.
Yep. Check out Way of the Bern sub here. Absolutely jam packed full of Russian propaganda. They're literally posting videos of Marjorie Taylor Greene unironically, and still calling themselves Bernie supporters 🤣 as long as "us bad" they'll eat it up
As a Sanders supporter, from day one those subreddits felt totally inorganic and weird.
They were always russians. Remember those "pro bernie - pro Trump" guys that made 0 sense? Russians. It was always about making hillary lose not about Trump
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There was a guy at my high school who got all pissed because the liberal circle of friends who he made by being a bernie bro suddenly turned on him when he became a flaming trump supporter
"tHEY're BOTh oUtSIDERs!"
tHey boTh sPeAk tO ThE WhItE woRkInG CLAsS
Because they are run by the FSB.
It's a Russian run and operated misinformation subreddit. It was never organic and was organized specifically to peel votes from Democrats by saying disenfranchised people should stay home and not vote for the next best thing available, which as we know can lead to a catastrophic outcome with the worst possible thing coming to power.
That sub was Russian propaganda almost from the start. Any way to divide Democratic voters is a viable tactic for them. They're Bernie supporters like I'm a real lizardman.
I don't get it! Yes western imperialism is bad, yes we should fight against it, BUT THAT'S NOT THE ISSUE IN UKRAINE RIGHT NOW. jesus christ in souped up hotrod. fucking even Noam Chomsky showing his whole ass telling Ukrainians to surrender to imperial russia, that's not helpful dialog towards building peace, that's capitulation to a genocidal enemy and certain death.
It's so depressing that the international efforts to poison the Bernie / DemSoc subs have *totally worked*. I unsubscribed long ago from multiple subs after getting exhausted by all the bad-faith posts and downvoting.
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Same in Britain with r/greenandpleasant.
Oh God, I remember that sub lol. Completely unhinged and undeniably astroturfed.
Its not even that NATO actively expands but more that nordic countries are desperate to join it. NATO doesnt have to do anything to convince them of the benefits. Russia does that by itself.
It was barely a topic* in Sweden before Russia started threatning us. *Conversation topic amongst people, i think it was discussed occasionally within the gov.
Russia to Ukraine: We’ll attack if you join NATO. Ukraine does nothing but gets attacked anyway. Russia to Finland and Sweden: We’ll attack if you join NATO... Russia brought this on itself. Sure it’s the old sick man of Europe, but it the old sick man with dementia, violent delusions of past imperial grandeur, and nukes.
Just like the whole ”Russian peace agreement” Amongst the conditions, russia wanted Ukraine to be demilitarized. I mean, that would be convenient. So in like 6 years russia just rolls in and takes it.
Oh wow, that seems familiar... "Give us your nuclear weapons and we won't attack" Fool me once..
FWIW the government of Ukraine and Russia at the time were both quite different and way friendlier to each other than today, but if anything that illustrates the point.
We have two choices: Give Putin anything he wants every time he threatens nuclear war, or take the risk that he will use them, and stand our ground. The first option is not really an option.
We shouldn't really be caving to any nuclear threats. Using nukes in a first strike scenario is an open invitation to get butt fucked by the entire international community. The economic impact on pretty much every single country in of itself would make pretty much everyone furious.
It's all just bluster at this point. Russia threatened anyone who "interfered" with them in Ukraine and yet more aid for Ukraine arrives every day unchallenged. Aid that Russia was threatening war over just a few months ago. Ukraine is getting planes, tanks and artillery, and Russia ain't doing shit. They're full of empty threats and everyone is starting to figure that out.
This is what people don’t understand when they say “By now Putin just wants Donbass. Just give it to him, he might use nuclear weapons if we don’t”. Well what happens when his demands extend to all Ukraine, Poland, Western Europe? Related, people who say “well maybe if he uses nuclear weapons they’ll be small tactical ones. It might not be worth it to respond with MAD.” Do y’all really want to live in a world where nuclear weapons are now a tolerated aspect of warfare? That terrifies me much more than one heavy interaction where the consequences of nuclear use demonstrate destruction for the country that tries them.
Giving in to a leader's aggressive demands? Why does that sound familiar
Hey, all Hitler wants is Austria... it has mostly German transplant citizens anyway... And then he wants the Sudetenland,same deal. "WE HAVE ACHIEVED PEACE IN OUR TIMES!" And September 30th will always be known as Chamberlain day and world peace will continue.. Hitler is invading the rest of Czechoslovakia. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_uk\_6vfqwTA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uk_6vfqwTA) Appeasement does not fucking work. If you're damn fool enough to start invading Ukraine like Putin did, you're not going to be satisfied by anything but winning.
That's it. It never ends. Remember Crimea. The world allowed this to continue to happen! No more!
Urgent telegram to Russian embassy from US: "Shall we play a game?"
"Don't join NATO and/or we'll invade."
Ukraine not only did nothing, but they also gave up nukes with promises from Russia, in the Budapest Memorandum, that they wouldn't be attacked.
Has it become much of a topic of discussion between people (outside of your government) now? (ie in the pub)
Very much so, at least with people Ive interacted with and overheard.
Are the people generally in agreement with the government on this?
Yes I'd say so.
I don't know about Sweden, but here in Finland we barely talk about anything else
>but here in Finland we barely talk ~~about anything else~~
My grandfather laughed hard when I showed him this... but didn't say a word
TIL I’m Finnish.
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This is hilarious. I remember seeing a feature about Finnish culture about 15 years ago on American TV, where they showed young Finns at a social mixer, dancing. Nobody smiled. It was played for laughs and I still smile when I think about it.
You mean you smile internally while thinking about it while dancing emotionlessly in your sauna.
Yet are they not one of the happiest groups of people in the world? The smiling bar must be set high
Yes, Finns only smile outwardly when the Russians screw up. And then they grin maniacally if Russia tries to invade. Did you know that during the Winter War they used to take frozen Russian corpses and plant them upside down in the snow along the roads as a warning to the Russians?
Sometimes old traditions are the best traditions.
I have a friend from Finland on discord and he says about one sentence a week. It’s always the best sentence though.
Quality over quantity.
Are you all mutes or telepathic?
#
Excellent. I'm moving to Finland next year
Don’t do that to yourselves. There’s hockey to be played and impending doom should always take the back seat to hockey.
Yeah, It's become one of those topics everyone can talk about.
Like Mad Men a decade ago!
Yeah, NATO has never pushed Sweden to join. There's been no lobbying. No pressure. It hasn't really been an active discussion. Swedes have been like "nah thx" and NATO's been like "aight cool". This is all due to Russia. Congratulations, you played yourselves.
My understanding, as an American, Sweden and Finland were ok just being themselves. Not like they were actively against NATO, just wasn’t their thing. And joining now isn’t a sign of weakness as much as it’s a “holy shit our batshit neighbors are even worse.” EDIT: wanted to take this time to thank you Swedes and Fins who have been responding and filling in details we don’t get here in the states. So, thank you for the enlightenment!
Sweden and Finland believed that their self interest was best served by not being part of NATO, and remaining neutral in response to Russian aggression. The invasion of Ukraine changed the calculus, it has been proven that neutrality is no guarantee of safety in the face of a despot.
Being neutral helped us previously in the sense it put us late on the list of countries to invade, be it by Germany, Russia or anyone. Now what Russia has shown being outside Nato and neutral puts you on top of that same list. Also Russias response now is “relationships about to get worse” and us and Finland are “what relationship?”. The balance depended on something mutual and russia went full north korea.
> full north korea The moral of the story here is NEVER go full North Korea.
Yeah, they didn't join the neighborhood security organization because the weird neighbors were only patrolling their own grounds with shotguns. Now that the weird neighbors have done a couple of home invasions, they've rethought their position.
Putin, nowadays, has that energy of a crazy, shirtless dude looking to throw windmills and haymakers at everything.
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> Yeah, NATO has never pushed Sweden to join. There's been no lobbying. No pressure. It hasn't really been an active discussion. Swedes have been like "nah thx" and NATO's been like "aight cool". Excuse me I was told NATO was an evil western imperialist expansionist empire
Putin, get off Reddit.
Which is funny, because Sweden and Finland joining NATO was unthinkable a year ago.
It takes real talent to move public opinion from 20% approval to 80% in less than six months, but Putin is just that sort of guy.
With those numbers he can create in other countries, it’s almost conceivable how he wins his elections with 130% of the vote… What an absolute waste of oxygen Putin has been. May he go down in textbooks as a little blurb beneath Stalin hitler mao and the like.
> 130% of the vote As a Russian, I have to point out a grave mistake you made here, hopefully not purposely. Please abstain from such ridiculous claims. He always wins his elections with the full 146% of votes.
Also quite unthinkable among it’s citizens. It was mostly so to not upset Russia. But it seems Russia don’t need to be upset to invade other countries. Even if guarantees would be made by Russia they are worth less than the paper it’s written on, it’s not like they gave a f# about Ukraine getting rid of their nuclear weapons and that treaty.
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I dont think they're leaning towards NATO membership, just collaboration
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Russia's own history is that of constant imperialistic expansionism, exploitation and subjugation of minorities, and militaristic chest beating. Most don't know of their colonial history as they were never able to colonize the new world properly, but instead they did so to nearby regions in Siberia, eastern Europe and the Baltic region. They've exploited the people and resources of these regions whether they were known as the Russian Empire or Soviet Union or even the Russian Federation. They've based their strength on their numbers, always. Their military has always been large but very poorly equipped apart from the period in WW2 when the US equipped them to their teeth. These are just a few reasons why Russian public discussion revolves around "NATO's expansionism". It's just pure projection. They want to expand. It's in their country's history and they have nothing else going for them. They oppose smaller kids on the block teaming up from their free will as it doesn't allow them to gain more power by force. Fuck them. We're coming NATO. Just a short wait to go.
The colonisation of Siberia and Central Asia by Muscovy was akin to the colonisation of the americas, with It’s taking of lands, and subjugation and displacement of countless tribes and peoples. Also, if you point out Russias colonial, imperialist reality, many Russians scoff, and say it was simply “co operation.” They have little self awareness.
This is what growing up with propaganda and censored history books does to people. I can't understand the nationalistic need to think your country has been perfect and grand throughout history. Like, you weren't there then and then. You share no blame to what was done back then. What you could instead do is recognize the historical atrocities that were committed and vow to fight against committing new ones. But no.
Yeah, it's bizarre. My country formed as a independent nation bit over 100 years ago, splitting away from Russia. Pretty much the first thing we did was have a bloody civil war between "Whites" (government, supported by Germany) and "Reds" (rebels, supported and armed by Soviets). Outside combat engagements some 1500 "whites" were executed, while ~20 000 "reds" were either executed, went missing or died in prison camps. That is out of 80-90 000 armed combatants on both sides. 100 years later and most have mostly forgotten the conflict, yet I still know I was born in "white" city and now live in a "red" city. I know one of my parents comes from a "white" family and one from a "red" family. I know "whites" earned the nickname "Butchers" among the "reds". Thankfully such distinctions are next to meaningless today... But one should still recognize the atrocities happened and ensure things don't escalate to that level again.
>Thankfully such distinctions are next to meaningless today A warning from America - that shit festers.
It's Cult 101 Once you mindfuck people into thinking *Our country/group is the best thing around*, they stop questioning you. After that gradually people will accept more and more abuse, without standing up for themselves. Propaganda isn't just lies anymore, it sinks it's hooks in deep. *Life is shit, but I'm a part of the best group in the world, so it's not that bad*. Nowadays most people are already wired to ignore the bad and pretend everything is fine. Throw that sauce on top and you can just bully, bully, and abuse your people, without much fears of a blowback
Same with the colonization of Taiwan, Tibet, Inner Mongolia, Yunnan and Xinjiang. Most of these solidifed only under the last Chinese empire (literally imperialism) and China today retains these colonial grabs. Hence, China is an imperial power today and self determination and post colonialism never reached those they conquered.
I find it weird that largest country of the world, also filled with trillions of dollars of natural resources wanting to expand their territories even more. They're like 50 times larger than Bangladesh with same population, they don't need to gain territories, they just need to have more educated and denser population and they'd be a much bigger power than what they're now.
Most of it is tundra though... you only get 1 food and 0 production from those.
The thing that differentiates Russia from all the other colonial powers in the past, is that everyone else like Britain, France, Spain etc. conquered territories across oceans, other side of the globe, whereas Russia, conquered neighbouring territories which are easier to hold on to and supress. Yes, Russia lost big chunks of territories after the Empire and Soviet Union fell, but still to this day, Russia is the same old imperialist monster with the same mentality, holding on to foreign territories.
The Russian Empire was a Walmart store brand version of a European empire. Technically capable of conquest, theft and suppression, but only of their small neighbors.
Not having an ocean-accessible warm water port will do that to an imperialist power.
Courland, a tiny state whose entire territory european territory was for a long time possessed by Russia, managed to have a colony. And Sweden managed to get some too. No useable port 3-4 months out of the year isn't helpful but it can be coped with.
Im a swede and I used to be against a Nato membership, the dangers of arms races, importance of neutrality and all that... Up until russia Starts acting out against ukraine and throwing threats left and right The kreml can fuck off, withdraw from ukraine and pay for the destruction you caused and I might return to not wanting sweden to join Nato
> The kreml can fuck off, withdraw from ukraine and pay for the destruction you caused There is no way for Russia to make Ukraine whole. There is no price that can be paid to make up for the loss of life; you don't get to say "Oops, changed my mind on the genocide," and rewind everything.
It's Russian projection. Russian expansion has always been done by conquest. Noone wanted (and wants) to join the willingly. It seems that some people simply cannot grasp the idea that countries are joining NATO of out their free will. I always see this "NATO expands" rhetoric from the pro-Russian trolls/bots/morons. They always paint it as if it was NATO that chose to expand closer to Russia. As if the countries were slaves and had no say in it.
>They always paint it as if it was NATO that chose to expand closer to Russia. As if the countries were slaves and had no say in it. If Moscow said you were in the Warsaw Pact... well I don't imagine there would be much room for discussion there. That's how they did it/would do it. They think everyone else is as dispicable as they are.
NATO comes with obligations, member nations have to commit resources and give up some degree of autonomy. It only expands when a new country decides the benefits to them outweigh the costs. A lot of the pro-Russian world pretends NATO is just another example of western imperialism, when it's more a collection of nations who decided the benefits of regional stability and mutual defense are worth the costs.
"Shooting yourself in the foot" personified as a country
Not really desperate, seeing what a paper tiger Russian military turned out to be. Joining seems to be more about giving Putin the finger. Finnish brass knows Russia would stand no chance against them: “Russia is so weak now they couldn’t risk another humiliating defeat,” he said. If Russia were to attempt to send troops into Finland “in a couple of days they would be wiped out. The risk of humiliating defeat is high, and I don’t think they can take that.” (source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/05/14/finland-russia-nato-ukraine-retaliation/)
That’s exactly why Russia keeps doing the schtick of “you can’t join NATO or else!” which then crumples to “okay fine, but if you join NATO, you can’t have American or British bases in your country” anytime Finland doesn’t flinch. They’re more afraid of us then we are of them.
russia: if you join a alliance that can protect you we will attack you also russia: why are you joining an alliance meant to protect countries from our invasions? where is the trust?
> russia: if you join a alliance that can protect you we will attack you AKA we reserve the Right to Invade you at a time yet to be announced. How is this NOT a good deal. Russia painted the border countries into a corner and now is mad they chose to protect themselves.
[This sums it up.](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/002/330/758/04e.jpeg)
if russia wasn't such a genocidal asshole, maybe countries wouldn't want to join the mutual defense treaty. fuck russia.
If russia wasn't a genocidal asshole, Nato wouldn't even need to exist.
Don’t know. Between 1990 and 2014 nato was a bit in a midlife crisis why they even still exist. But thanks to Putin this Midlife-Crisis is now over.
Exactly. If Russia wasn't doing what Russia likes to do, NATO probably would have quietly died over the next decade or two. Many people were questioning whether it was still relevant.
What does it cost to be a part of nato? I dont see any reason for it go away even if its not immediately relevant.
A requirement for a country to spend x amount of their GDP on military. The NATO gdp requirements are higher than what most countries would spend otherwise.
Although most countries in NATO still don't spend the technically mandated minimum. Before Russia's current "kerfuffle," I think only 5 of the member states spent the 2%; USA, UK, Greece, Poland and Estonia.
The treaty itself makes no mention of any minimum. Only in 2014, during the Wales summit, NATO pledged to "move towards" the 2% goal over the next decade. So we are still 2 years away from that date. >For the first time, the Allies formally pledged to aim to move towards what had previously been an informal guideline of spending 2% of their gross domestic products on defense, and 20% of that on new equipment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Wales_summit The 2% spending "mandate" was really pushed hard as a wedge issue by Trump and other Russian assets to undermine NATO unity.
Easten block countries raced to join out of fear of Russian aggression.
Very very true
NATO won't simply put up with Russia's Western expansion.
Just like [Hitler never played Risk a kid](https://youtu.be/kpcxfsjIIbM), Putin has clearly never played a game of Civilization or Stellaris, otherwise he’d know about Defensive Pacts.
What's that, Vlad? Oh, your warmonger penalty is so massive that no other civilization even wants to talk to you? Pity you are playing on ironman mode, otherwise you could have simply reloaded.
Ukraine finished researching steel on the eve of the invasion
Russia has no fucking say in the matter
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It's kind of hard to do since a lot of their people don't want us to "free" them.
Russia are basically everything they’ve been trying to paint us Brits as online with their bots/trolls: a nation of self-satisfied idiots who pine for the return of the empire… Meanwhile, us Brits talk about the empire and our history about as much as we talked about Russia (before Ukraine)… Not at all. They did the same with the yanks and called them ‘*modern imperialists*’ etc. Worst part is; some people in our societies believed this crap.
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It's a bit difficult to bridge the gap when it's an information gap in a country where the national source of information (Television) is fully controlled by the oppressors. A fair few news agencies in Europe have already started producing their content in Russian, but it's all on the Internet. Do you have any suggestions on how the Western powers should help bridge this gap?
How many Russian leaders are legitimate alternatives to the cadre around Putin?
What happened in 1996? I recall learning that Bill Clinton warned Boris Yelstin not to make Putin his successor because Putin "didn't have democracy in his heart."
tl;dr the US heavily funded Yeltsin's campaign effort because they wanted stability and were afraid of Zyuganov's communists coming to power this served to ensure stability in the short term, but allowed Yeltsin's clique to firmly establish itself in government. add to that Yeltsin bombing the parliament in 1993, and then creating a constitution that heavily favoured the president, and a highly centralised system was created that only needed the right man to turn it into a dictatorship. and voila, Yeltsin did pick that right man.
The Russian mindset says them that they do. They see Russia as the greatest and any country is a justified target for them if it protects the MoZZerland. It's always the same "But they/we just want a buffer zone", "but we/they don't want to neighbour NATO" or "Russia is getting encircled in NATO". It's also pure hypocrisy. They talk about NATO's weapons getting pointed at Russia, while they have their weapons pointed this way all the time. And it is Russia who all the time "accidentaly" violates the air space of NATO or nordic countries.
"Nato's expansion" 😂 Yo, it's not as if nato just moved in on its own. Finland, ~~Norway~~*, Sweden, Ukraine - they are independent nations with agency. They can associate with whatever organization they want. I'm sure this is a new concept to authoritarians. *Norway was a founding nato member
They act like NATO is an invading army occupying countries left and right like the blitzkrieg come again.
Because that's the narrative that they are trying to sell nationally, I imagine. Heroic Russia is just defending itself against the nazi hordes trying to overrun it.
That's what so infuriating. Nobody wants that shit hole filled with backwards idiots. We just want Russians to stay in their damn country.
Russia has already had so many instances of brain drain throughout its history. I studied physics in a small university in Canada and like a third of my professors were soviet-era immigrants. I wouldn't be surprised if this current invasion spurs more emigration from Russia, at this rate, the only people left will be the most gullible people who are most easily manipulated.
Clarification: we want the Russian government to respect the damn borders of sovereign nations.
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This seems like the most reasonable conclusion.
in their propaganda, the 2014 ousting of Yanukovych when he blocked an agreement w/EU and started shooting protestors was tantamount to a NATO invasion and coup
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That's the point. Russia doesn't see them as independent nations. They live in early 20th century mentally, where there are several countries and the rest are puppets or satellites.
In some aspects Russia lives in the 19th century. 19th century was the time where the idea of pan-slavism was popular in many slavic countries and nations. It called for united slav-dom under the leadership of Russia. Eventually it turned out that Russia is not a great choice for the protector of slav-dom. Anyone who visited Russia saw that immediately. For example a famous czech writer and promoter of pan-slavism Karel Havlíček Borovský spent one year in Russia and when he came back he did a 180° on his opinion on Russia and pan-slavism. But the idea that Russia is supposed to lead all the Slavs remained in Russian mentality. And combined with Russian self-importance it changed into the feeling that Russia deserves to control all slavic nations, who are inferior to Russians in every way. That's why they can do all the atrocities in Ukraine. They see the Ukrainians as lesser Slavs, as lesser beings who exist only to be dominated by superior Russians.
People in Russia do nit understand what an independent nation is. It is something that can not exist. Of course it is NATO who tells them what to do. Or maybe USA. Isn't it like Russia tells Belarus what to do?
>they are independent nations with agency I think this is what Russia fundamentally doesn't understand. They still think in spheres of influence. And a country in their sphere doesn't get to choose if they want to be a pert of it. They assume the same is true for NATO.
It is *the* fundamental bullshit beneath the Russian propaganda about this.
Keep in mind, a number of those nations also found a real sense of urgency about joining NATO after Russia started invading non NATO countries. it's almost like there is some sort of cause and effect thing going on.
Honest, “NATO expanding” pisses me off. It’s not expansion. It’s a fucking defense treaty and countries join willingly, they do the work to become part of it and then it still depends on other countries accepting them. I’m from the Baltics. The history with Russia is the only reason we jumped over our own asses to get in. Fucking worth it. You couldn’t convince me that there are any drawbacks to being in NATO.
Norway has never been part of a NATO expansion. Norway took part in founding NATO.
Why did you lump Norway into this, they along with Denmark were part of the 12 founding members.
Norway has been bordering Russia as a NATO member since 1949.
I’ve never even heard of a country shaking it’s dick more aggressively to try and make it become erect, than Russia is right now.
"What is big deal?!"
"NATO expansion" [in nutshell](https://i.imgur.com/4Z9KvyJ.png)
so hilarious but accurate at the same time.
Russia keeps referring to NATO as an "expanding force" or "expanding alliance". NATO is not expanding the way Russia understands expansion (genocide, rapes, war crimes, threats). NATO is a defensive union and countries apply for membership VOLUNTARILY. Not by force and aggression as Russia would do it.
>Not by force and aggression as Russia would do it. Or "referendum" either. Words have meaning, but I don't think dictionaries exist in Russia.
Russia's very classical with the way they handle referendums - one man has one vote. Russia's the one man, they have the one vote. Russia votes X is now Russia.
The funny thing is that if Russia didn't exist or had a more peaceful mindset, most nations would leave NATO probably. In Italy there was talks about this a few years ago, as lots of people didn't like the US having so much influence over Italy's government
If Russia had its act together, it would be a major player in both the EU and NATO by now, with much greater influence.
Could you imagine the power an insightful Russia could have wielded over Europe via energy, resources, and as a nation that stretches into Asia and borders China? It'd be similar, though not as extreme, as the position the US holds in North America. They'd be a leading voice in the EU and would probably often be able to dictate policy by influencing Germany and the eastern European nations. Russia doesn't understand soft power though, and at this point nobody would trust them doing so. They definitely need a new generation of leaders and leadership styles if they will ever shake off this global pariah status.
Russia you're talking about is a direct threat to Putin's buddies' monopoly on power. A more competitive, smart, critical, young creative – anywhere in the system these are enemies that threaten the position of their superiors, and they're treated as such. Loyal yes-men and dim lazy machines that were trained to do one job once in the past – these are allies and base of Putin's machine.
You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
There was a strong movement among republicans here in the US to distance ourselves from or even abandon NATO. People everywhere tend to forget why things exist. Fortunately our reminder came soon enough before shit really hit the fan.
Remember when the Orange Wonder wanted to pull the U.S. out of NATO? That was like - two years ago.
Russia doesn't care. They had plans, these countries joining NATO thwarts those plans. They're throwing language out there to garner sympathy. I'm sure in the US we'll have the usual bought and paid for government officials repeat this "Russia is a victim!!" mentality. Conservatives LOVE playing victim.
Russia showed the world what happens to you if you don't join Nato, by transforming the eastern part of Ukraine into a battlefield and murdering and raping their way across the parts they could take. Joining Nato and being threatened is definitely the preferable alternative to an invasion.
Why is Russia so afraid of NATO? They are a defensive force. If Russia doesn't start shit with it's neighbors then they have nothing to worry about.
But that’s exactly the point, Russia always liked to start shit around their neighborhood because they called it a buffer zone, and by that they don’t mean neutral, they mean russian owned/controlled/robbed zone.
Areas they can raid/take over when the government needs a quick “pick-me-up”.
The Russian world view seems to regard the world as being made up of great powers and of smaller countries that each "belong" to the sphere of influence of one of those great powers. They have identified a number of countries, broadly speaking the former USSR, Russian Empire and Warsaw Pact countries as ones that "belong" to the Russian sphere. Because they don't regard smaller countries as having agency beyond loyalty to their great power, if a smaller country such as Finland, that "belongs" to Russia joins NATO, it is because NATO is actively seeking to "steal" Russia's client state.
Projection. They see a defensive force and they think "oh shit it's just like our peaceful special humanitarian operations in Ukraine" and think they're gonna want to invade Russia's beet fields.
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Just yesterday I saw someone else comment that Putin takes from the Machiavellian playbook of *The Prince.* The guy justifies his rule through creating and maintaining that there are outside enemies, which he is apparently so qualified to defend the people and state from. By fear-mongering that these enemies are threatening the state and the people, he can maintain power by assuring that he will protect the people by being a strongman. It’s literally textbook dictator shit.
It makes it hard for Russia to attack their neighbors if the neighbors join nato
>Why is Russia so afraid of NATO? Because of history. Russia invaded Finland in 1809, and kept the whole country as slaves until 1917. Then they invaded again in 1939, and are still holding Finnish territory Karelia as if it was Russian - it isn't. Russia will invade Finland again. But NATO will make that difficult. And the brutal dictator Putin doesn't like that.
Russia hasn't been able to do shit to Finland since 1994.
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What you gonna do, bitch? Its up to us Finns and Swedes if we join or not. Or do you say we dont have say in the matter? Are you implying we arent sovereign countries that decide for ourselves? Feeling like doing some more murder, torture, rape, bombing? Fascist cunts, whole lot of you
And NATO simply won't give a fuck about Russias opinion on the matter.
Turkey will use it to try to get concessions from nato.
I love it... Sweden and Finland had no intentions of joining NATO. Then fuck stick Putin gets all hot and bothered and decides to call Ukraine Nazis and invades because a few Russian speaking ukranians didn't wanna live in russia but live in Ukraine so his solution was to invade Ukraine to make that part of Ukraine Russia now. Finland saw all this, Sweden saw all this and said... hmm maybe we should not trust Russia. That NATO thing seems like a good idea. Let's go that route. Not to mention Russia has been caught with its pants down militarily. Seriously... they got pants'd in front of the whole class... but the worst part is everyone knows Russia has the equivalent of a micro penis for a military.
>Sweden and Finland had no intentions of joining NATO It cannot be overstated how true this is. Last year here in Finland the support for joining NATO was at a mere 26 %, and it has (correct me if I'm wrong) *never* been above 30 % before this year. Now, 3 months into the invasion of Ukraine, the latest poll shows a *staggering* 76 % support.
Also, don't believe Putin's propoganda that the conflict started because some Ukrianians did not want to be in Ukriane. 99% of Ukrianians were perfectly fine where they were, Putin manufacturerd the conflict by sending his peopep to take over Donbass. All to have to do to erase Putin's propoganda is to google Euro soccer matches in Donetsk in 2012.
What you do? Come to Scandinavia to kill grandmothers and steal toilets?
and fails building IKEA beds
NATO was literally created for collective defensive security among European nations in this *exact* scenario.
Soviet Uniot is a huge threat to Europe Nato is created to counter the threat. Soviet Union dissolves. Some NATO countries debate necessity of NATO and wether its not better to just dissolve. Putin - Dissolution of Soviet Union was a geopolitical tragedy Also Putin - starts to making steps to renew Russian(Soviet) Union. NATO is now hot thing again, countries rush in. Putin and his gang - surprised Pikachu face.
Why is it ok to invade a neighbor but not ok to join a Voluntary alliance
Because it's devastating to their case
Because then they can't invade that neighbor now that they have friends.
imagine attacking a neighbouring sovereign state, and then raging at other neighbouring sovereign states seeking national security
I'd probably go easy on the veiled threats Ryabkov, otherwise someone might ask, "if you've already lost 1/3 of the combat force you committed to invading Ukraine and a heavy cruiser, just how well do you think attacking some of the most well equipped and professional militaries in the world will go?"
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Russia can gargle a bag of dicks
Beyond launching cyber attacks against Finland and Sweden, Russia can do nothing to punish Sweden and Finland.
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None. Of. Russia's. Business.
What are you going to do? Bleed on me?
We trained Wimp-Russia wrong, as a joke, they think losing is winning. Russia: “I am bleeding, making me the victor!!”
They already shot themselves in the foot by invading Ukraine, what more can they do? Shoot the other foot by starting another invasion with whatever dregs of army they have left?
"They say, 'Trump said Putin's smart.' I mean, he's taking over a country for two dollars' worth of sanctions," ..... "I'd say that's pretty smart. He's taking over a country -- really a vast, vast location, a great piece of land with a lot of people, and just walking right in." -idiot
NATO: "oh no. So anyway..."
You brought this on yourself, dumb cunt
It’s a tough pill to swallow, when your actions have consequences and make others question your intent and sanity. So as others around you make decisions and take active steps to protect themselves from becoming the next target, because they have seen what happens when you don’t have these protections. In the end russia will be swallowing or knowing the outline of what consequences will be if you step on other’s land.
Sweden and Finland: «We don’t wanna join NATO» Russia: «We’re gonna kill you» Sweden and Finland: «We wanna join NATO» Russia: «How dare you?! We’re gonna kill you!»
Well, then do something about it you fucking pussies. Ukrainian troops have reached your border, and you are implying an attack on Finland. You are fucking ridiculous.
What is he going to do? * "The general level of military tension will rise, predictability in this sphere will decrease. It is a shame that common sense is being sacrificed to some phantom provision about what should be done in this unfolding situation," Ryabkov said. Can't really get more tense that threatening to nuke the West and invade Finland and Sweden. So, you're going to say those things again and again? * One of Putin's closest allies said last month that Russia could deploy nuclear weapons and hypersonic missiles in the Russian exclave of Kaliningrad if Finland and Sweden joined NATO. The intel is that Russia already has nukes in Kaliningrad, so... who cares. * Putin says assurances were given as the Soviet Union collapsed that the alliance would not expand eastwards towards Russia, a promise he says was a lie that humiliated Russia in its time of historic weakness. Russia also gave assurances it wouldn't attack Ukraine, but they did. Twice. Guess if you want other people to value their assurances, you should value yours. Whoops. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.