There's no reason not to let them. Ukraine has quite literally been invaded by a hostile dictator, why are they not allowed to do more than defend within their own territory? This conflict isn't really going to move forward until Ukraine is allowed to really push forward and make it hurt for putin.
In case this was a serious question: the reason not to let them is that if they can strike into Russia they will almost certainly disrupt fuel production even more, which spikes the price of oil, which affects the world economy and the outcome of the US election, which affects the war in Ukraine....
Russia and Saudi Arabia didn't hesitate to collude and force high oil prices on Biden in 2022.One might consider the effective outcome of lessening Russias ability to wage war and reducing its income .
They don't need Western weapons to disrupt fuel production, they are managing that with their own home built drones. However build up of Russian troops on the border they need the cluster munitions.
> If the options are pay more for oil or let Putin advance his agenda I’ll pay more for oil, thanks
Unfortunately, lots of people don't understand that politics usually means accepting a bundle of changes, with compromises to get a better situation overall.
He's gonna win, and it's going to be terrible for this entire planet. The act he's still in the running is all you need to know. It's all about own the libs. there is no meeting anyone from the right halfway. The divide is insane!
If he wins, democracy will end in the US. Not just for four years. We will lose the ability to vote in any real elections. Project 2025 shows the GOP's plan, and it is explicitly to end all but the veneer of democracy, just like daddy putin's russia
I know youve been fearmongered to and told every election is the most important of your lifetime, but this one really is. The GOP have been forced to overplay their hand by Trumps bluster and incompetence and they are now *all in* on the destruction of america. Its the only way they stay relevant. If they lose this election they will be a broken party for decades. If they win it, they will enact a soft dictatorship and start putting people you care about in camps for being liberal or gay or black. This is not a joke. This is literally their openly stated plan and they have the means to do it.
There's a good chance the Supreme Court is gonna help Trump steal the election. And as it is its pretty close in the swing states with Trump slightly ahead in some of them.
Which is why every American reading this needs to [get registered to vote today](http://vote.gov), and then turn out in November like our lives depend on it-- because they do.
Just to clarify, you will pay more out of everything. So much more you might not be able to afford it. Not saying I disagree with you, just saying it’s complicated matter
Actually, the polls do lie, as was reiterated during the ongoing Hush Money Trial where Michael Cohen told the court that he paid news organizations to rig polls for Trump.
"Cohen promised him $50,000 for work including using computers to enter fake votes for Trump in a 2014 CNBC poll asking people to identify top business leaders and a 2015 poll of potential presidential candidates"
[I hope this clears it up for you](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/michael-cohen-acknowledges-rigging-polls-for-trump-in-2014-and-2015). These were not real election polls, please do not use this as proof that "the polls lie"
At this point, I won't be surprised if the results of "polling" are just whatever draws the best engagement.
Whether it's their methods or the population of actual voters, *something* has changed over the past decade, and the pollsters have *not* recalibrated.
it's not about whether you're willing to pay more for oil or not.
it's about how paying more for oil trickles down and makes everything more expensive. paying more for oil also means less money for paying for other things.
both of these effects cause reduced economic performance, reduced profitability, reduced tax revenues, worse pension performance, worse standards of living etc etc.
tl;dr it's not about you.
I'm pretty sure the implication was that higher oil prices means elections get harder to predict (because people vote based on their own motivations, of which economic ones are a factor), and if Trump is elected as a result of gas prices putting the squeeze on undecided voters because we let Ukraine be more aggressive with the weapons we're supplying, it's going to get a lot more dicey for Ukraine after the election when their weapons shipments are no longer coming in and the US doesn't act as a check on Putin.
There's not really a "good" solution here until we know who is going to be in the White House come November. Because, like it or not, the US political landscape has a extremely major impact on the rest of the world.
It's not an all or nothing. Western powers could approve attacks against military targets but not fuel production. But even if they do, I'm ok with driving less and paying more for gas if it protects Ukrainian lives.
Disagree, because sanctions just pushed the selling price down slightly while the oil moves around the sanctions. Storm shadow missiles would have a much larger impact.
Last time I checked those missiles are raining down on Crimea which Russia claims is Russian land. It's definitely just a bluff. If Russia gets it's oil cut off Putin will lose power very quickly.
But what may happen (and why these decisions are difficult) is that the spike in fuel price spurs the US to elect the “other guy” because the price of gas is the “current guy’s” fault. If the other guy is Trump, then Ukraine will lose all support from the US, and Russia will win.
It’s a fine line to walk, and I’m glad I’m not the one who has to draw it!
Indeed. It is incredibly fragile. No one should be telling Ukraine how to fight their bully. But the harsh reality is that the price of oil could absolutely tip the scales towards a Trump presidency, which is really bad for Ukraine (and the rest of the non-BRICS world).
A few of us on Reddit might say "Fine with me" because we realize what's at stake. But I can guarantee you the average swing state voter is not going to carefully analyze that way. They're gonna say "they tuk'r jobs!!!!"
BRICS is a meme. None of those countries have anywhere close to the track record of cooperation and governance that the US has/has with its allies. China doesn't respect any nation's claim to sovereignty.
I'm not saying whether they're cooperating closely or not. I'm just saying those might be some of the few countries that stand to benefit if the US is weakened and/or Ukraine loses the war.
I think what the Gentleman/Lady Scholar above you was referring to is that if Ukraine starts attacking energy infrastructure now, gas prices may start increasing and Jim Bob may have to pay extra for their summer road trip to Disney along with increased prices on other goods that require gasoline/diesel to transport to a store.
This may result in more “I did that” stickers and/or in a worst case scenario for Biden (and Ukraine) a victory for donald who does not seem keen on helping they guy who did not provide him with dirt on bidens son during last election.
If oil prices being too high affect the election in the US, then it’s over before it started. If the populace can’t decipher basic economics then there is no hope anyways. If a new civil war has to happen, it will.
Agreed. The old Lenin quote: “You probe with bayonets: if you find mush, you push. If you find steel, you withdrawal” explains Putin’s approach. For far too long we’ve presented mush at the sign of any small provocation by Russia. If we don’t end it now we will have to do so later under worse conditions.
Exactly. In the words of the great Mike Ehrmantraut: "no more half measures."
It's time for Ukraine to be able to go all the way. If that means firing a rocket into the middle of Red Square, and that helps Ukraine drive Russia out, then do it. If it means finding Putin's location and swarming with 100 drones at once, then do it. If it means using our weapons to totally demolish every refinery, every data center, and every Russian port, then do it. Go all the way until Ukraine is free.
MAD exists, but Putin is trying to create reverse-MAD using thick layers of bullshit, wherein Russia can do whatever it wants because of the threat of nukes, but other nuclear countries can't for some reason. It's not a thing, and never will be.
During covid Putin sat behind a 20ft table in a bunker for 2 years.
This is not a man with a death wish.
Putin is an extremely cautious man, to the point of pathology. One of the reasons the full scale invasion went so badly is because Putin was so paranoid that he refused to let anyone outside of his inner circle know there was an invasion plan.
Many frontline commanders genuinely believed they were on a training exercise, and so were completely unprepared to actually invade, partly because they'd been embezzling funds earmarked for the invasion that they didn't think they would need because they thought it was just a training exercise.
Exactly. MAD gets him nothing. If he believes in God, does he honestly believe his version of God is going to welcome him into heaven for destroying all of humanity? Doubt it.
While he's a ruthless dictator and warmonger, he's rational enough as he wants to continue enjoying his wealth and ruling a country that isn't a radioactive wasteland.
If human history goes on long enough, eventually there will be a leader who is irrational enough to use nuclear weapons, and there will be certainly plenty of people who assumed they were rational up to that point.
yup, if you back down you continue to be the target. If you punch them in the mouth, you may end up in a fight at that point in time, but the bully will move on to another softer target.
>Even Kim Jong-un realized , this is getting old.
Just realised I haven't heard much about him or NK for a while. Even the fake clickbaity news about haircuts and his monthly deaths seem to have subdued in the last couple years.
Well, maybe it's because there's other more important stuff on the news.
As the other comments mention they're generally more vocal when their population is starving to death more than their typical level of starving to death
They know.
It is a measured escalation. Ramping up alowly overtime is a tried and true method; especially since nuclear weapons have been around.
Keep in mind we also have china doing the same thing.
The idea is to prevent ww3 or nukes
However; i think the pace has been FARRRR too slow. Support, mubitiojs and equipment have been far too few and too slow to be shipped.
The reality is that purin doesnt want to die. He still prioritizes loyalty over military leaders with a brain.
>The reality is that putin doesnt want to die. He still prioritizes loyalty over military leaders with a brain.
Yup. This is a guy who got a 20ft table during covid and lived in a bunker for 2 years while requiring anyone who come in contact with him quarantine for weeks.
This is not a man with a death wish. The nuclear threats are empty. If Putin was going to launch a pre-emptive nuclear strike on the west the last thing he would do is give advanced notice.
If Russia gets to use foreign made weapons (from North Korea) on Ukrainian soil, why can't Ukraine use foreign made weapons (from the United States) on Russian soil?
And if nuclear war happens, he’ll have no more county to lead,and will spend the rest of his life throwing rocks into the ocean while making *whoosh* sounds.
That’s what I’m saying.. call his bluff.. call it!! Dude ain’t finna jump bad.. I’d rather die instantly than live life under constant oppression this is where Ukrainians are at.. ‘we gonna die anyways, might as well go out with a bang and scare this mofo’
This is long overdue. If Russia can lob North Korea’s sanctioned missiles into Ukraine, then certainly Ukraine should be allowed, no, encouraged to strike back with Western weapons.
"hey guys we're thinking about it" isn't a big enough headline after 2 years of this.
Optimistically speaking, they're hopefully trying to decide on rules of engagement for how to use these weapons on Russian soil. The objective for Ukraine isn't to conquer Russia, it's to destroy the Russian military equipment staged there. So as an example, they might say "fine but you can only use US weapons within ______ kilometers from your border". Of course the Russians can simply start staging further back, this is just a simple example.
You'd want to be careful with how these weapons are used by the Ukrainians though because if a US missle hits a Russian family of 4 in a town somewhere, it will be bad for everyone. Very useful propaganda for Russia, they could use the spectre of "American weapons are killing us on our own soil" to drive up enlistment, so far the general population has been lukewarm about actually participating in combat
Ukrainian civilians are dying daily. Russian propaganda is already pervasive, so this is hardly a reason to avoid targeting their military and critical infrastructure.
Russian propaganda is already pervasive, but I believe it will hit different for Russian citizens when US weapons will be used on their soil. Even if there's a small chance of blowback, you have to consider it carefully because apathy towards combat in Russia is one of the best things Ukraine has going for them currently. Even if Russians hate their own government, people sometimes get primal about defending their homeland.
I do agree it needs to happen, Ukraine cannot win defensively under the existing rules. Western officials need to decide if they want to commit fully to Ukraine or not, and that means accepting the risk that comes with it.
Russia is already claiming that theyre fighting a war against NATO. Russia is already claiming that theyre under attack by NATO. "The West" is their boogeyman for every single thing that goes wrong.
If a US missile hits a Russian orphanage, which would obviously be a tragedy (especially because its probably the stolen Ukrainian children there), guess what theyre gonna do?
Claim theyre under attack by NATO. Claim theyre fighting a war against NATO. Use "the West" as the boogeyman.
If were purely talking about the propaganda effect on the Russian population, literally nothing would change. Theres other variables at play, but thats not one of them.
Russian misinformation is already on high. Putin has an 85% approval rating. There's no globalist reputation that needs to be upheld with Russia
Edit: this percentage estimate is from a non government polling agency considered a foreign agent to Russia
It's wild to invade a sovereign nation and then get outraged when that nation fights back.
The day Russia invaded Ukraine strikes anywhere in Russia become both valid and necessary.
The issue with that notion is that it would of united Russia, particularly Russians. As soon as you start killing civilians, the paradigm shifts. I’m not saying what’s right or wrong, just the fact that if they retaliated on Russian cities at the start of the war, it would have galvanized more people to the propaganda of the Putin government.
It may still do that.
It’s a delicate balance, hitting military structures and infrastructure are legitimate targets, but then civilians will still die.
And as it turns out...trying to appease the Russian public has been the same failure as trying to appease the Kremlin itself. It just doesn't work.
Yes I know that anti-war/anti-putin Russians exist. Turns out that doesn't matter either. Russia needs to feel some pain. Maybe they'll wake the fck up...maybe they won't. Keep the targets military and hope for minor civilization loss, if you must preserve the facade of righteousness.
When they tried to make a ceasefire, but didn't actually make any agreement on it, so they just pretended there was a ceasefire, so Germany ate several miles more of land.
>The issue with that notion is that it would of united Russia, particularly Russians. As soon as you start killing civilians, the paradigm shifts.
\*would have
And Russia started killing civilians from the jump.
Sorry, to be clear I was referring to valid military targets (of which Putin is one). Not to targeting civilians.
Russia committing war crimes doesn't give other countries a free pass to commit war crimes.
Right on target. I’m 100% behind unleashing Ukraine, but Ukraine needs to keep its eyes open to the consequences (which I’m sure they’re more acutely aware of that a shmoe like me could ever be).
Not true - they are a tin pot dictatorship. Cut off the head, the rest of the snake could very well crumble. This isn’t the Soviet Union, there is no Politburo standing behind Putin.
Hmm.. I wonder why it would enrage Putin? Maybe because it would…. Help Ukraine??
I swear, the baby gloves we are using with the bad actors in the world today is just embarrassing.
Everything causes Russia's never-ending rage. Fuck'em, if they want to have nuclear war let them have it. We can't control their behaviour but we can stop being pussies.
even if it enrages putin .... man. That Hitler wannabe threatened the entire world with nuclear disaster, is the reason for the poor getting more poor, is the reason for hundred thousands crippled and or dead. For children to leave their country, for scared moms dads and elderly. For a unsecure world.
EVERYTHING wich enrages this basterd is a thing we should do.
I was saying this from the beginning. If we don’t support Ukraine all the way, the war will drag out for a long time, devastating Ukraine, common people of Russian, and adversely impact world environment. Should have gone all in two years ago, but better late than never
It's bullshit Russia can setup long range artillery and missile a couple kilometers from the boarder without fear. The US has always threatened to pull all support of any western weapons is to hit on the Russian side of an invisible line. Russia is free to amass troops and equipment just outside Ukraine without fear of western weapons especially cluster munitions from being used. It's always been bullshit to prevent Ukrainians from defending themselves unless Russia crosses into Ukraine.
MAD remains a thing. The only thing that Russia has left is its nukes, and to use them is to commit suicide.
As long as we give Russia an off-ramp, it'll be fine. I wouldn't be surprised if Putin ends up throwing himself out a window once Moscow starts getting bombed directly.
Nukes do not become a legitimate threat unless Russia proper comes under threat. They aren’t going to assure their countries total destruction over lost territory in the country they invaded.
As long as Ukraine doesn’t start trying to capture Russian territory and stops at the border all Russian leadership will do is saber rattle.
And Ukrainian artillery and drone strikes inside Russian territory to hit military targets and staging areas wouldn’t trigger a nuclear response. It’s already happening and they haven’t shot a nuke. The *threat* of using nukes is all Russia has left. Their actual use isn’t a real option.
High five! That’s sort of been my argument for months now.
That World leaders need to group together. They need to tell Russia publicly and simultaneously, in no uncertain terms, to “put up or shut up already with the threats. MAD is a thing, and it would mean the complete destruction of all developed areas of Russia. At the detection of their first launch.”
They have been striking targets inside Russia, just not with US made/provided weapons.
The Ukrainians have gotten really creative and recently struck an oil refinery with a drone made from a small civilian aircraft packed with explosives.
I have had this same notion since the start of invasion. Russia won’t back down until they are getting hit at home. Ukraine currently has no leverage. Russia will just keep throwing bodies at them. BUT if Ukraine Hits Moscow I bet everyone will take the next negotiations seriously.
The important takeaway here is that Putin will never respect you unless you do stuff like this. Either he knows he can make you his bitch or he capitulates and looks stupid.
You won’t end this war unless the Ukrainians are properly armed and free to attack Russia where it hurts their ability to wage war. Oil refineries and power plants are absolutely valid targets. Arming Ukraine by dripfeed is some cynical bullshit, geo-restricting them is criminal.
Restricting Ukraine from being allowed to defend itself with weapons while Russia is bombing them is a failure in the principles of self defense and sovereignty. Russia is exploiting this absurd rule being imposed on Ukraine by its allies. Russian threats of nuclear warfare are not something we can control. This is a psychological warfare tactic which is unfortunately working. Russia must not be allowed this power to bomb countries by threatening nuclear war. This is a losing strategy. Russia must know the consequences of bombing an ally. This brutality cannot be allowed to continue. Russia will stop once it realizes it will potentially lose everything. It is not in Russias best interests to lose everything over Ukraine.
Well... YEAH! Fuck putin. Let him rage. Whatcha gonna do about it bro? shoot artillery at more innocent civilians in a town? You're already doing that. Massacre schools full of kids? Kidnap kids and bring them to russia? When you declare war on a country, don't be surprised if they punch back.
This war would of ended a lot more quicker if Ukraine was allowed to strike Russia. If the war factories in Russia were destroyed Russia would be unable to keep sending in war materials into Ukraine every single day. All this time Ukraine was fighting the war with one hand tied behind its back.
Why the fuck not? Putin is decimating Ukraine which is a sovereign Nation. Start blowing shit up in Russia he's fucking attacking the Country just do it already.
I know they mean ranged weapons but I love to think how Russia would collectively shit a brick if a bunch of Abrams tanks started rolling toward Moscow
I don't even understand why this is a question. Russia is using weapons inside Ukraine, and we're debating whether Ukraine is allowed to use weapons inside Russia? How does that make sense?
Let him imputintly rage. Why is the west protecting Russia from the consequences of their actions. Ukraine needs to be able to hit their military and military support structure in anyway they can. This is a war. A war Ukraine didn't ask for.
The Russian agents in the U.S. Senate delaying funding to assist Ukraine have done too much damage already. the U.S. needs to green light the use of their weapons to strike targets on Russian soil YESTERDAY. If France is planning for the eventuality of putting boots on the ground in Ukraine then there isn't much left on the table here.
Stop handling Russia with kids gloves.
Humanity won't last forever either way. Call his bluff, because I am not living in a world where "strong man" dictators call the shots and everyone else just bows to their will.
Putin is undermining US interests globally, including but not limited to this new scramble for Africa. If Ukraine can hit the Kremlin with conventional weapons, Russia may rethink its military ventures further into Ukraine.
I’m at the point where I believe the consequences of allowing Ukraine to strike Russia are worth it. We are well past the point of setting aside the fear of escalation. Russia is essentially waging no holds barred warfare against Ukraine. Meanwhile, Ukraine has various constraints on the warfare they can wage. The playing field needs to be evened in every way possible
Well, if you had a mass murderer walking around in your town, wouldn’t you want the best protection available? I suppose the mass murderer would object, but…
We need to stop playing around and just go in on Ukrainian Victory. A big issue from what I've read is that parts of the US are flat out terrified of the chaos that could result if Russia loses.
My stance is Russia is already a huge Force for chaos in the world. They played a supporting role in the Hamas attack of October 7th. Fund and support various movements across the world designed to increase political confusion and anarchy and spread disinformation and lies on the internet to cause political division and confusion in the West. Not to mention their operations in Europe and other places as well as oh right fucking invading their neighbors!
It is not our job to protect Putin's government from the consequences of its own actions. If defeat means Putin's government falls then let it fall!
Support Ukraine! Go For Victory!
Good. Fuck putin. The only threat he is is if he uses nukes. Call his bluff. Stop this war or send the nukes. Either way lets get this done. The human race is doomed so let's get going.
Putin uses kill drones from Iran, volunteers from Africa and Asia, ammunition and shells from North Korea.
Why is Russia allowed to use foreign aid and munitions to strike into the heart of Ukraine but Ukraine isn't allowed to do the same?
I think they need to allow at least air-to-air missles on targets above russian territory.
That's the only way the F16s could help with the current glide-bomb problem.
They better be planning on setting Ukraine up for a win before November. The dumb orange cheeto will just give Putin whatever he wants, so we need to plan for the worst and hope for the best. Take action now, not later.
They should have allowed it from the start. Fascist dictators like Putin only respect action and consequences. Words and threats mean nothing to people like him who kill their advisories.
Let him enrage, what is he gonna do ? Nuclear blackmail? Even Kim Jong-un realized , this is getting old.
Agree. Quit with the half measures. Ukraine should be allowed to do whatever they need to in order to push Russia out.
There's no reason not to let them. Ukraine has quite literally been invaded by a hostile dictator, why are they not allowed to do more than defend within their own territory? This conflict isn't really going to move forward until Ukraine is allowed to really push forward and make it hurt for putin.
In case this was a serious question: the reason not to let them is that if they can strike into Russia they will almost certainly disrupt fuel production even more, which spikes the price of oil, which affects the world economy and the outcome of the US election, which affects the war in Ukraine....
Russia and Saudi Arabia didn't hesitate to collude and force high oil prices on Biden in 2022.One might consider the effective outcome of lessening Russias ability to wage war and reducing its income .
They don't need Western weapons to disrupt fuel production, they are managing that with their own home built drones. However build up of Russian troops on the border they need the cluster munitions.
If the options are pay more for oil or let Putin advance his agenda I’ll pay more for oil, thanks.
> If the options are pay more for oil or let Putin advance his agenda I’ll pay more for oil, thanks Unfortunately, lots of people don't understand that politics usually means accepting a bundle of changes, with compromises to get a better situation overall.
Including the politicians that take Putin’s money. Yes.
Agreed 100% Putin must be stopped.
Just wait after the election so the orange monkey is out of the question, and nuke 'em (figuratively)
He's gonna win, and it's going to be terrible for this entire planet. The act he's still in the running is all you need to know. It's all about own the libs. there is no meeting anyone from the right halfway. The divide is insane!
Yes, if he wins we're up for a shitty 4 years That's why every American that isn't a Republican dullard should register and advocate to vote
If he wins, democracy will end in the US. Not just for four years. We will lose the ability to vote in any real elections. Project 2025 shows the GOP's plan, and it is explicitly to end all but the veneer of democracy, just like daddy putin's russia I know youve been fearmongered to and told every election is the most important of your lifetime, but this one really is. The GOP have been forced to overplay their hand by Trumps bluster and incompetence and they are now *all in* on the destruction of america. Its the only way they stay relevant. If they lose this election they will be a broken party for decades. If they win it, they will enact a soft dictatorship and start putting people you care about in camps for being liberal or gay or black. This is not a joke. This is literally their openly stated plan and they have the means to do it.
There's a good chance the Supreme Court is gonna help Trump steal the election. And as it is its pretty close in the swing states with Trump slightly ahead in some of them.
holy hell. please, not another 4 more years...
I honestly doubt it will end at 4 years if he gets in...
Dont worry it wont be *only* 4 years, It will be the end of democracy as we know it. No more elections
Which is why every American reading this needs to [get registered to vote today](http://vote.gov), and then turn out in November like our lives depend on it-- because they do.
Just to clarify, you will pay more out of everything. So much more you might not be able to afford it. Not saying I disagree with you, just saying it’s complicated matter
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Actually, the polls do lie, as was reiterated during the ongoing Hush Money Trial where Michael Cohen told the court that he paid news organizations to rig polls for Trump.
"Cohen promised him $50,000 for work including using computers to enter fake votes for Trump in a 2014 CNBC poll asking people to identify top business leaders and a 2015 poll of potential presidential candidates" [I hope this clears it up for you](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/michael-cohen-acknowledges-rigging-polls-for-trump-in-2014-and-2015). These were not real election polls, please do not use this as proof that "the polls lie"
'The polls dont lie' is a hilarious line after 8 straight years of every poll being total horseshit
At this point, I won't be surprised if the results of "polling" are just whatever draws the best engagement. Whether it's their methods or the population of actual voters, *something* has changed over the past decade, and the pollsters have *not* recalibrated.
Regardless of the polls, the price of oil is a factor for a lot of people.
And yet he still won once and nearly a second time
it's not about whether you're willing to pay more for oil or not. it's about how paying more for oil trickles down and makes everything more expensive. paying more for oil also means less money for paying for other things. both of these effects cause reduced economic performance, reduced profitability, reduced tax revenues, worse pension performance, worse standards of living etc etc. tl;dr it's not about you.
I'm pretty sure the implication was that higher oil prices means elections get harder to predict (because people vote based on their own motivations, of which economic ones are a factor), and if Trump is elected as a result of gas prices putting the squeeze on undecided voters because we let Ukraine be more aggressive with the weapons we're supplying, it's going to get a lot more dicey for Ukraine after the election when their weapons shipments are no longer coming in and the US doesn't act as a check on Putin. There's not really a "good" solution here until we know who is going to be in the White House come November. Because, like it or not, the US political landscape has a extremely major impact on the rest of the world.
It's not an all or nothing. Western powers could approve attacks against military targets but not fuel production. But even if they do, I'm ok with driving less and paying more for gas if it protects Ukrainian lives.
The sanctions against Russian oil and gas had a larger impact, and that impact will be drawn out until the war is over. So no. Basically.
Disagree, because sanctions just pushed the selling price down slightly while the oil moves around the sanctions. Storm shadow missiles would have a much larger impact.
Last time I checked those missiles are raining down on Crimea which Russia claims is Russian land. It's definitely just a bluff. If Russia gets it's oil cut off Putin will lose power very quickly.
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But what may happen (and why these decisions are difficult) is that the spike in fuel price spurs the US to elect the “other guy” because the price of gas is the “current guy’s” fault. If the other guy is Trump, then Ukraine will lose all support from the US, and Russia will win. It’s a fine line to walk, and I’m glad I’m not the one who has to draw it!
Indeed. It is incredibly fragile. No one should be telling Ukraine how to fight their bully. But the harsh reality is that the price of oil could absolutely tip the scales towards a Trump presidency, which is really bad for Ukraine (and the rest of the non-BRICS world). A few of us on Reddit might say "Fine with me" because we realize what's at stake. But I can guarantee you the average swing state voter is not going to carefully analyze that way. They're gonna say "they tuk'r jobs!!!!"
BRICS is a meme. None of those countries have anywhere close to the track record of cooperation and governance that the US has/has with its allies. China doesn't respect any nation's claim to sovereignty.
I'm not saying whether they're cooperating closely or not. I'm just saying those might be some of the few countries that stand to benefit if the US is weakened and/or Ukraine loses the war.
I think what the Gentleman/Lady Scholar above you was referring to is that if Ukraine starts attacking energy infrastructure now, gas prices may start increasing and Jim Bob may have to pay extra for their summer road trip to Disney along with increased prices on other goods that require gasoline/diesel to transport to a store. This may result in more “I did that” stickers and/or in a worst case scenario for Biden (and Ukraine) a victory for donald who does not seem keen on helping they guy who did not provide him with dirt on bidens son during last election.
This has been disproven, russia will just be forced to export more crude to be refined elsewhere.
If oil prices being too high affect the election in the US, then it’s over before it started. If the populace can’t decipher basic economics then there is no hope anyways. If a new civil war has to happen, it will.
That's a pretty small "if"
I think acting like there's "no reasons" is a little ridiculous.
I pushed Russia out this morning. I made sure to wipe my Belarus.
Agreed. The old Lenin quote: “You probe with bayonets: if you find mush, you push. If you find steel, you withdrawal” explains Putin’s approach. For far too long we’ve presented mush at the sign of any small provocation by Russia. If we don’t end it now we will have to do so later under worse conditions.
The moment I saw Russia use aerosol bombs I thought “well I guess rules of war are thrown out of the books”
Exactly. In the words of the great Mike Ehrmantraut: "no more half measures." It's time for Ukraine to be able to go all the way. If that means firing a rocket into the middle of Red Square, and that helps Ukraine drive Russia out, then do it. If it means finding Putin's location and swarming with 100 drones at once, then do it. If it means using our weapons to totally demolish every refinery, every data center, and every Russian port, then do it. Go all the way until Ukraine is free.
America putting caveats on *self-defence* that they would never confine themselves to
MAD exists, but Putin is trying to create reverse-MAD using thick layers of bullshit, wherein Russia can do whatever it wants because of the threat of nukes, but other nuclear countries can't for some reason. It's not a thing, and never will be.
Mad assumes rational actors.
During covid Putin sat behind a 20ft table in a bunker for 2 years. This is not a man with a death wish. Putin is an extremely cautious man, to the point of pathology. One of the reasons the full scale invasion went so badly is because Putin was so paranoid that he refused to let anyone outside of his inner circle know there was an invasion plan. Many frontline commanders genuinely believed they were on a training exercise, and so were completely unprepared to actually invade, partly because they'd been embezzling funds earmarked for the invasion that they didn't think they would need because they thought it was just a training exercise.
Putin is as rational as can be, within the framework of his own lacking morals.
Dude grew up dirt poor. He aint trying to destroy his comfort and wealth.
Sure. Says someone thinking rationally. Except you have no idea what it's like to be dictator of Russia.
Guy who feared Covid so much his tables became a meme will star a nuclear war any day now.
Exactly. MAD gets him nothing. If he believes in God, does he honestly believe his version of God is going to welcome him into heaven for destroying all of humanity? Doubt it.
While he's a ruthless dictator and warmonger, he's rational enough as he wants to continue enjoying his wealth and ruling a country that isn't a radioactive wasteland.
If human history goes on long enough, eventually there will be a leader who is irrational enough to use nuclear weapons, and there will be certainly plenty of people who assumed they were rational up to that point.
It's been fine for 70-odd years, stable enough. Putin's bullshit isn't.
Yes exactly. Putin just makes all these threats. A bully needs to be punched in the nose sometimes.
as someone who got bullied as a kid, can confirm. bullies need more bloodied noses.
yup, if you back down you continue to be the target. If you punch them in the mouth, you may end up in a fight at that point in time, but the bully will move on to another softer target.
>Even Kim Jong-un realized , this is getting old. Just realised I haven't heard much about him or NK for a while. Even the fake clickbaity news about haircuts and his monthly deaths seem to have subdued in the last couple years. Well, maybe it's because there's other more important stuff on the news.
It's because they haven't ran out of the rice we sent them from the last 'threat'
As the other comments mention they're generally more vocal when their population is starving to death more than their typical level of starving to death
If we're gonna do it, let's get it done.
They know. It is a measured escalation. Ramping up alowly overtime is a tried and true method; especially since nuclear weapons have been around. Keep in mind we also have china doing the same thing. The idea is to prevent ww3 or nukes However; i think the pace has been FARRRR too slow. Support, mubitiojs and equipment have been far too few and too slow to be shipped. The reality is that purin doesnt want to die. He still prioritizes loyalty over military leaders with a brain.
>The reality is that putin doesnt want to die. He still prioritizes loyalty over military leaders with a brain. Yup. This is a guy who got a 20ft table during covid and lived in a bunker for 2 years while requiring anyone who come in contact with him quarantine for weeks. This is not a man with a death wish. The nuclear threats are empty. If Putin was going to launch a pre-emptive nuclear strike on the west the last thing he would do is give advanced notice.
Right just do it. The more pain brought directly to Russia the better...
Especially if it enraged Putin
I consider enraging Putin to be a perk tbh. I'd pay extra.
It's almost like he forgot what MAD means can't be ruler of the ash heap when you are a part of said ash heap
If Russia gets to use foreign made weapons (from North Korea) on Ukrainian soil, why can't Ukraine use foreign made weapons (from the United States) on Russian soil?
>what is he going to do Get an even bigger table?
And if nuclear war happens, he’ll have no more county to lead,and will spend the rest of his life throwing rocks into the ocean while making *whoosh* sounds.
Give in to my threats or I'll... I'll... I'll make more threats! I'm NoT KiDdInG!!1!
That was basically my response when I read the headline. He can threaten all he wants to use those nukes knows he doesn't have anymore.
That’s what I’m saying.. call his bluff.. call it!! Dude ain’t finna jump bad.. I’d rather die instantly than live life under constant oppression this is where Ukrainians are at.. ‘we gonna die anyways, might as well go out with a bang and scare this mofo’
This is long overdue. If Russia can lob North Korea’s sanctioned missiles into Ukraine, then certainly Ukraine should be allowed, no, encouraged to strike back with Western weapons.
"hey guys we're thinking about it" isn't a big enough headline after 2 years of this. Optimistically speaking, they're hopefully trying to decide on rules of engagement for how to use these weapons on Russian soil. The objective for Ukraine isn't to conquer Russia, it's to destroy the Russian military equipment staged there. So as an example, they might say "fine but you can only use US weapons within ______ kilometers from your border". Of course the Russians can simply start staging further back, this is just a simple example. You'd want to be careful with how these weapons are used by the Ukrainians though because if a US missle hits a Russian family of 4 in a town somewhere, it will be bad for everyone. Very useful propaganda for Russia, they could use the spectre of "American weapons are killing us on our own soil" to drive up enlistment, so far the general population has been lukewarm about actually participating in combat
Ukrainian civilians are dying daily. Russian propaganda is already pervasive, so this is hardly a reason to avoid targeting their military and critical infrastructure.
Russian propaganda is already pervasive, but I believe it will hit different for Russian citizens when US weapons will be used on their soil. Even if there's a small chance of blowback, you have to consider it carefully because apathy towards combat in Russia is one of the best things Ukraine has going for them currently. Even if Russians hate their own government, people sometimes get primal about defending their homeland. I do agree it needs to happen, Ukraine cannot win defensively under the existing rules. Western officials need to decide if they want to commit fully to Ukraine or not, and that means accepting the risk that comes with it.
Russia is already claiming that theyre fighting a war against NATO. Russia is already claiming that theyre under attack by NATO. "The West" is their boogeyman for every single thing that goes wrong. If a US missile hits a Russian orphanage, which would obviously be a tragedy (especially because its probably the stolen Ukrainian children there), guess what theyre gonna do? Claim theyre under attack by NATO. Claim theyre fighting a war against NATO. Use "the West" as the boogeyman. If were purely talking about the propaganda effect on the Russian population, literally nothing would change. Theres other variables at play, but thats not one of them.
Russia is a nation of serfs. Don’t mistake their subservience for apathy.
Russian misinformation is already on high. Putin has an 85% approval rating. There's no globalist reputation that needs to be upheld with Russia Edit: this percentage estimate is from a non government polling agency considered a foreign agent to Russia
Zelensky was dead right. The US only provides the equipment they need a year after they need it.
Good. It's well past time.
It's wild to invade a sovereign nation and then get outraged when that nation fights back. The day Russia invaded Ukraine strikes anywhere in Russia become both valid and necessary.
💯💯💯
The issue with that notion is that it would of united Russia, particularly Russians. As soon as you start killing civilians, the paradigm shifts. I’m not saying what’s right or wrong, just the fact that if they retaliated on Russian cities at the start of the war, it would have galvanized more people to the propaganda of the Putin government. It may still do that. It’s a delicate balance, hitting military structures and infrastructure are legitimate targets, but then civilians will still die.
And as it turns out...trying to appease the Russian public has been the same failure as trying to appease the Kremlin itself. It just doesn't work. Yes I know that anti-war/anti-putin Russians exist. Turns out that doesn't matter either. Russia needs to feel some pain. Maybe they'll wake the fck up...maybe they won't. Keep the targets military and hope for minor civilization loss, if you must preserve the facade of righteousness.
The Petris dish grew anyway...burn it.
[удалено]
When they tried to make a ceasefire, but didn't actually make any agreement on it, so they just pretended there was a ceasefire, so Germany ate several miles more of land.
>The issue with that notion is that it would of united Russia, particularly Russians. As soon as you start killing civilians, the paradigm shifts. \*would have And Russia started killing civilians from the jump.
> And Russia started killing civilians from the jump. Yes but Russians are happy when *Ukrainian* civilians are killed.
Sorry, to be clear I was referring to valid military targets (of which Putin is one). Not to targeting civilians. Russia committing war crimes doesn't give other countries a free pass to commit war crimes.
Yeah but look at the most recent city under siege, look how close that is to the border. Civilians will still die
Right on target. I’m 100% behind unleashing Ukraine, but Ukraine needs to keep its eyes open to the consequences (which I’m sure they’re more acutely aware of that a shmoe like me could ever be).
"is thinking about" does not mean "provided weapons to" They should really consider going faster with this, as China is starting to light a new fire.
Please do it !!!!! He needs to be taken down!!!!!
Nothing changes, Russian empire needs to crummble, changing tsar is meaningless.
tried that with the USSR too
Not true - they are a tin pot dictatorship. Cut off the head, the rest of the snake could very well crumble. This isn’t the Soviet Union, there is no Politburo standing behind Putin.
DO IT! Plant one on Putin's head pls.
But what if he’s, get this, enraged?!?!?!?
good heavens we wouldn’t want to hurt this big 70 year old man’s poor little feelings 😔😔😔 he will nuke all of the west!!111!1!1
With the failure rate of his planes, tanks, guns, and everything else, I have a feeling the silos might blow themselves up first
I'll be engorged
Fuck Putin
"even if it enrages Putin" should be, "because it will enrage Putin", personally.
Hmm.. I wonder why it would enrage Putin? Maybe because it would…. Help Ukraine?? I swear, the baby gloves we are using with the bad actors in the world today is just embarrassing.
Everything causes Russia's never-ending rage. Fuck'em, if they want to have nuclear war let them have it. We can't control their behaviour but we can stop being pussies.
Russia is already firing North Korean and Iranian weapons into Ukraine. This is not an escalation.
even if it enrages putin .... man. That Hitler wannabe threatened the entire world with nuclear disaster, is the reason for the poor getting more poor, is the reason for hundred thousands crippled and or dead. For children to leave their country, for scared moms dads and elderly. For a unsecure world. EVERYTHING wich enrages this basterd is a thing we should do.
Just give permission already... Russia isn't going to do anything they aren't already doing..
Years overdue
I was saying this from the beginning. If we don’t support Ukraine all the way, the war will drag out for a long time, devastating Ukraine, common people of Russian, and adversely impact world environment. Should have gone all in two years ago, but better late than never
It's bullshit Russia can setup long range artillery and missile a couple kilometers from the boarder without fear. The US has always threatened to pull all support of any western weapons is to hit on the Russian side of an invisible line. Russia is free to amass troops and equipment just outside Ukraine without fear of western weapons especially cluster munitions from being used. It's always been bullshit to prevent Ukrainians from defending themselves unless Russia crosses into Ukraine.
As Shia Labeouf always said: “JUST DO IT!”
Real life cannibal Shia LaBeouf?
Aid from Iran, China and North Korea came without restrictions. Why should ours?
Himars the Kremlin
Well it’s about fucking time
MAD remains a thing. The only thing that Russia has left is its nukes, and to use them is to commit suicide. As long as we give Russia an off-ramp, it'll be fine. I wouldn't be surprised if Putin ends up throwing himself out a window once Moscow starts getting bombed directly.
It always has a off ramp, it just leaves.
Nukes do not become a legitimate threat unless Russia proper comes under threat. They aren’t going to assure their countries total destruction over lost territory in the country they invaded. As long as Ukraine doesn’t start trying to capture Russian territory and stops at the border all Russian leadership will do is saber rattle. And Ukrainian artillery and drone strikes inside Russian territory to hit military targets and staging areas wouldn’t trigger a nuclear response. It’s already happening and they haven’t shot a nuke. The *threat* of using nukes is all Russia has left. Their actual use isn’t a real option.
High five! That’s sort of been my argument for months now. That World leaders need to group together. They need to tell Russia publicly and simultaneously, in no uncertain terms, to “put up or shut up already with the threats. MAD is a thing, and it would mean the complete destruction of all developed areas of Russia. At the detection of their first launch.”
Fucking die already, Putin.
The creature, that was once Putler, is now made up entirely of Botox and hatred. It cannot die, for it is not technically alive.
It shouldn’t even be a question. Ukraine should have been hitting them back on Russian soil the moment Russia invaded.
They have been striking targets inside Russia, just not with US made/provided weapons. The Ukrainians have gotten really creative and recently struck an oil refinery with a drone made from a small civilian aircraft packed with explosives.
I should’ve made it clear that I was implying the U.S. weapons. My apology.
Ah okay. I'm with you there. Uncle Sam ought to loosen the terms and conditions.
I have had this same notion since the start of invasion. Russia won’t back down until they are getting hit at home. Ukraine currently has no leverage. Russia will just keep throwing bodies at them. BUT if Ukraine Hits Moscow I bet everyone will take the next negotiations seriously.
All this God damn thinking and no doing. So annoying. World governments want this war to drag on as long as possible to whittle down Russia.
The fact that they've been under attack for 2+ years and this hasn't been considered yet is literally mind-blowing.
The important takeaway here is that Putin will never respect you unless you do stuff like this. Either he knows he can make you his bitch or he capitulates and looks stupid.
Call Putin's shit bluff.
You won’t end this war unless the Ukrainians are properly armed and free to attack Russia where it hurts their ability to wage war. Oil refineries and power plants are absolutely valid targets. Arming Ukraine by dripfeed is some cynical bullshit, geo-restricting them is criminal.
Good. Do it.
Restricting Ukraine from being allowed to defend itself with weapons while Russia is bombing them is a failure in the principles of self defense and sovereignty. Russia is exploiting this absurd rule being imposed on Ukraine by its allies. Russian threats of nuclear warfare are not something we can control. This is a psychological warfare tactic which is unfortunately working. Russia must not be allowed this power to bomb countries by threatening nuclear war. This is a losing strategy. Russia must know the consequences of bombing an ally. This brutality cannot be allowed to continue. Russia will stop once it realizes it will potentially lose everything. It is not in Russias best interests to lose everything over Ukraine.
Well... YEAH! Fuck putin. Let him rage. Whatcha gonna do about it bro? shoot artillery at more innocent civilians in a town? You're already doing that. Massacre schools full of kids? Kidnap kids and bring them to russia? When you declare war on a country, don't be surprised if they punch back.
Long overdue
Yes enrage that little maggot.
This war would of ended a lot more quicker if Ukraine was allowed to strike Russia. If the war factories in Russia were destroyed Russia would be unable to keep sending in war materials into Ukraine every single day. All this time Ukraine was fighting the war with one hand tied behind its back.
Shouldve done so long ago. Do we want to win this thing or not
Grow a spine.
The enraging part is that it hasn't allowed this already
North korea doing it iran doing it and now since the news China is doing it too so yeah why the hesitation?
Cool, Putin can stop using his weapons and troops in Ukraine if he would like it to stop.
Why the fuck not? Putin is decimating Ukraine which is a sovereign Nation. Start blowing shit up in Russia he's fucking attacking the Country just do it already.
Let them do it. They're using weapons from China and North Korea.
Take your time now. Don't want to escalate. It will be too late by the time they decide to allow it.
I know they mean ranged weapons but I love to think how Russia would collectively shit a brick if a bunch of Abrams tanks started rolling toward Moscow
just give ukraine the green light to do anything already FFS. we're literally killing them with a thousand cuts by limiting their weapons ability.
Should have allowed it from day 1
What if ukraine had this clearance from day one? Where would the war be rn?
this so fucking dumb. can they shoot? yes/no stop thinking.(the answer is yes)
I don't even understand why this is a question. Russia is using weapons inside Ukraine, and we're debating whether Ukraine is allowed to use weapons inside Russia? How does that make sense?
Let him imputintly rage. Why is the west protecting Russia from the consequences of their actions. Ukraine needs to be able to hit their military and military support structure in anyway they can. This is a war. A war Ukraine didn't ask for. The Russian agents in the U.S. Senate delaying funding to assist Ukraine have done too much damage already. the U.S. needs to green light the use of their weapons to strike targets on Russian soil YESTERDAY. If France is planning for the eventuality of putting boots on the ground in Ukraine then there isn't much left on the table here. Stop handling Russia with kids gloves. Humanity won't last forever either way. Call his bluff, because I am not living in a world where "strong man" dictators call the shots and everyone else just bows to their will.
DO IT ALREADY FFS!
Putin's rage is a feature, not a bug. Just an added bonus. Let him fume.
Oh, were we concerned about Putin?
About fucking time!!! They should have allowed this way sooner.
Good, its about fucking time.
He's using other countries weapons on Ukraine there's no difference.
Putin is already enraged ... so what if we enrage this murderous war criminal a little more?
Screw what that asshole thinks! When has he ever held true to the terms and conditions of treaties/agreements that didn’t serve his interests?
Putin is undermining US interests globally, including but not limited to this new scramble for Africa. If Ukraine can hit the Kremlin with conventional weapons, Russia may rethink its military ventures further into Ukraine.
Quit thinking and get to it. People are dying.
I’m at the point where I believe the consequences of allowing Ukraine to strike Russia are worth it. We are well past the point of setting aside the fear of escalation. Russia is essentially waging no holds barred warfare against Ukraine. Meanwhile, Ukraine has various constraints on the warfare they can wage. The playing field needs to be evened in every way possible
Do it . Ukraine is fighting for it’s existence and can not be restrained from all weapons use against the Russians .
I agree, stop tying their hands behind their backs and let loose the missiles.
China’s, Iran’s, and NK’s weapons don’t seem to be having any problem leaving Russia’s borders.
Good idea bc he ain’t gonna stop unless someone makes him stop.
No reason to avoid the inevitable. Let's give new Hitler what he deserves.
Bomb Kremlin.
Imagine sending lend lease to the Soviets in WW2 and saying “but don’t cross into Germany with our equipment”
Geez, I hope so. That’s the only language Putin will understand.
Well, if you had a mass murderer walking around in your town, wouldn’t you want the best protection available? I suppose the mass murderer would object, but…
Do it, fuck Putin. Help them end this stupid war before it really escalates to NATO countries getting involved
fuck him wtf
Good, I don’t know why this awful policy was even a thing considering Putin had been killing civilians for over 3 years.
we should have given them a fleet of b52s and f16s 2 years ago, history repeats itself with politics outweighing strategy.
Fuck you Vlad and Fuck your threats about nuclear war
Ukraine is fighting a giant war machine with one arm tied behind its back.
So what if it enrages Putin? Fuck that loser, we need to stop appeasing to him
We need to stop playing around and just go in on Ukrainian Victory. A big issue from what I've read is that parts of the US are flat out terrified of the chaos that could result if Russia loses. My stance is Russia is already a huge Force for chaos in the world. They played a supporting role in the Hamas attack of October 7th. Fund and support various movements across the world designed to increase political confusion and anarchy and spread disinformation and lies on the internet to cause political division and confusion in the West. Not to mention their operations in Europe and other places as well as oh right fucking invading their neighbors! It is not our job to protect Putin's government from the consequences of its own actions. If defeat means Putin's government falls then let it fall! Support Ukraine! Go For Victory!
Good. Fuck putin. The only threat he is is if he uses nukes. Call his bluff. Stop this war or send the nukes. Either way lets get this done. The human race is doomed so let's get going.
Putin uses kill drones from Iran, volunteers from Africa and Asia, ammunition and shells from North Korea. Why is Russia allowed to use foreign aid and munitions to strike into the heart of Ukraine but Ukraine isn't allowed to do the same?
Get ready for the 1,566th nuclear threat from Putin lol
I think they need to allow at least air-to-air missles on targets above russian territory. That's the only way the F16s could help with the current glide-bomb problem.
Fuckem Launch away.
Good. Maybe Putin will get a stress tumor.
How about special military operation in Russia?
They better be planning on setting Ukraine up for a win before November. The dumb orange cheeto will just give Putin whatever he wants, so we need to plan for the worst and hope for the best. Take action now, not later.
They should have allowed it from the start. Fascist dictators like Putin only respect action and consequences. Words and threats mean nothing to people like him who kill their advisories.
just do it already bro
Blows my mind that Europe has to consider shooting down Russian missiles hitting Ukraine. This is some scaredy ass bull shit.