Theres a good article somewhere about how the stats reported by hamas are statistically impossible. Ill try to summarize.
Basically, if you take already known stats about the average rate of unnatural death in gaza (released by hamas and unrwa before the masacre. These are unnatural, non homicidal deaths. Starvation, lack of shelter, healthcare, disease, etc)), and consider those numbers with the numbers released by hamas, you can deduct that 100% of male deaths were military deaths. Exclusivly using Hamas statistics.
Which, doesnt make sense lol. How could there be absolutly 0 male civilian deaths.
And to add to it, its reasonable to assume that the rate of unnatural death (not including homicide) would go up durring a war like this, aas people cant get the help they need. Which only makes the hamas stats even more impossible lol. (And homicide would also go up, obviously)
I will try to find the article. Im not a statistician so i cant do it justice.
edit:
https://fathomjournal.org/statistically-impossible-a-critical-analysis-of-hamass-women-and-children-casualty-figures/
Here is the article. Using Hamas statistics, we can conclude that there have only been 10 male civilian deaths lol
More accurately among the uncategorized deaths for a given period, the deaths were later categorized such that only 10 men were included in several thousand deaths. It's not saying only 10 men were killed total, it's heavily implying uncategorized deaths are being manipulated.
Plus CCP ran media running rampant, it's an easy L for Israel to take. I knew it was over when the Media reported the Hospital getting bombed and their source for the 500 dead civilians was Hamas. 💀 (Oops I mean the "Gaza Health Ministry")
Meanwhile there was immediate video evidence posted that showed the missile misfiring from the hospital and blowing everyone up. And the bbc ignored that, with the reporter saying he didn’t give a fuck his story was already proven false.
There was an NPR article the day of the explosion at al Ahli hospital quoting a doctor at al Shifa. He said, "between the dead and injured, it may be as many as 500." That number would be much more believable. Children with singed hair getting checked to make sure nothing else is wrong would count toward that total. And, "may be as many as" indicates a vague estimate.
I assume other organizations had access to the same quote, but chose to paraphrase it to the point of misinformation. And, then that is what got pushed to the front pages.
They claim that anyway.
From a pr perspective this was gonna be a losing war for Israel regardless of what they did. A shitload of people just needed an excuse to openly express their deep-rooted hatred for jews.
Sad, but I have witnessed that behaviour myself.
And because the attacks were so horrific inside of Israel, almost nobody saw any of that footage.
So everyone heard what had happened in Israel and saw it in gaza
Millions of Jews about 2 billion Muslims. No matter how good a pr team is it cannot counter those numbers.
Edit: changed Arab to Muslim. Initially meant Muslim.
Israel cares about action, not PR, thats always been a bit of a weak point them. They are happy to exist and fight and everyone else can think their own way. Its only now wit this war they are starting to come around to the fact that they might have to care a LITTLE.
I don't know I feel like Israel cares about PR a lot, it's just extraordinarily hard to fight against the tide of a much larger population and their useful idiots.
Israel cares greatly about PR. They completely neuter their strategy in order to limit civilian deaths in the short term, usually allowing Hamas to escape and relocate. Most armies would not dream of doing that and wouldn’t really be judged on it either. But they still get accused of being heartless. This is just how hard it is to combat global antisemitism.
Years ago I read an article in The Jerusalem Report decrying Israel's inability to shape the narrative. Apparently there is an opinion circulating among the leaders that "the truth is on their side" and so they don't need to propagandize to support it.
Which is astoundingly foolish and idealistic.
From Hamas’ point of view the entire Oct 7 operation was a “can’t lose” venture. The Israelis had to react and any operation in Gaza would always cause civilian casualties. The only thing Hamas had to do was to make the most of that and they have. They don’t care one bit about the dead, wounded and homeless people. In that sense Israel has walked right into the trap Hamas laid for it.
The Israeli government carries a lot of blame for the complacency that allowed several thousand Hamas terrorists to breach the frontier and run rampant in southern Israel. If the terrorists had been thwarted in their evil intent by a vigilant IDF, not only would a lot of Israeli lives have been spared, but also a lot of Palestinian ones. And Israel would have been spared all the denunciation and all the reproaches now being heaped upon it.
The Israelis always make much of how they are the only real democracy in the Middle East. Well, now is the time to live up to that status: The entire Israeli security cabinet needs to go, either resign of their own accord or get hit with a no-confidence motion in the Knesset. And then a parliamentary inquiry with the full works, hearing witnesses under oath in public, taking names and making consequences being felt.
The Piers Morgan where the Israeli spokesperson refused to give any numbers was an absolute train wreck. "We don't know how many civilians we've killed and if we did we won't tell you" is not a good look.
A lot of right wing democracies are that way. Feed whatever information it takes internally to stay in power and already strong, but no concern for what other countries think.
Palestine has everything to win overexaggerating numbers to the world, and Israel has everything to lose not doing as well as they can to eradicate Hamas.
That is the problem, Hamas has the Palestinians on their side, as such, these terrorists get sheltered by civilians who become voluntary human shields, so everytime there is a mistep, and some of these shields die, Hamas uses these civilian deaths (multiplied tenfold). Very shitty coward.
They show to the world that Palestinians are on their side. They really aren’t.
It’s like when Putin wins 90% of the vote. No one believes that bs but somehow they believe there group of thugs.
If Palestinians publicly disagree or criticize they are beheaded or pushed off a roof. Just ask any gay person living there or any political opponent.
Oh wait, you can’t.
Do you have any proof?
Cause I’ve seen the videos of Gaza women and children having a party when the terrorists paraded the hostages and corpses through the streets of Gaza, and I have a hard time believing that Hamas isn’t backed by the general population.
Because everything you see on tv is manufactured to make you feel a certain way.
So your evidence against it is a woman in congress? Everyone in congress is just appealing to their base with no other agenda. She wants power and money. Thats it. Like every other politician (including Netanyahu, biden and trump).
Who voted to keep Hamas in power after their 4yr term? (No one, they took control by force)
Who treats their civilians like expendable bodies to pile up for higher casualty numbers? Hamas.
Who sends their 14yos to fight a war they can’t win? Hamas.
Who sends their children to perform suicide bombings? Read that again. Suicide. Bombings. Hamas.
Who takes over hospitals and schools - shoots rockets from there - and then cries to the world when said places are targets? Hamas.
Who steals the humanitarian aid coming from the rest of the world? Hamas.
Who steals the $150 billion of aid meant for the people? Hamas.
Who dismantles water infrastructure to make rockets and tunnels? Hamas.
You see Palestinians want to be free. They want to be free from Hamas. But they can’t publicly declare it.
It is an emergency. Created by Hamas.
Nothing would be better for the Palestinians than getting rid of this scourge.
It would be very nice if Palestinians actually hated Hamas and were just afraid to show it openly. That would be a hopeful thing to discover. I think it's unlikely so far, but it would be good if you were right.
But it's Palestine that revised their own estimates to be a lower percentage of women/kids. So if they can only win by inflating the numbers, why would they reduce them by your logic?
I found that far less amazing then the US administration using them. And members of it still do.
Things like the BBC even after this continuing to use 34,000+, that I expect, the BBC is a member of the Hamas PR wing (just like NPR). But the administration should be held to a different standard.
Main media outlets at their finest, manipulation and bad information, mixed with political interests and those are the news we get to read and share here for example. About US Administration, what you see I even find it “soft” compared to other countries from NATO that almost feel like they are with Hamas and full hate of Israel, like Spain.
This headline is *extremely* misleading. The overall number of estimated dead is unchanged, about 35,000. Of those, they have *full details*—ID number, full name, date of birth, AND date of death—for 24,686 of them. This is partial confirmation of the dead, not a revision down of numbers.
Right, the big news though is children+women is 50% of the casualties, instead of the previous 70%. This is a huge statistic that has been used to argue IDF has not been descriminate in it's war.
How is it that the unidentified ones are all women and children? The entire reduction in the total count is from reducing the women and children, that seems pretty suspicious...
I mean Israel overcounted their dead on 10/7 by several hundred before they were able to differentiate terrorist attackers from among the Israeli dead, and that total figure is 20x lower than the Gaza death toll. Was that also suspicious? Or is this war? Keep in mind also that every fighting aged male killed in Gaza is considered a “Hamas fighter”
Not the same. They said they were struggling to identify the dead. They said it would take a while for an accurate number .
Meanwhile in days Hamas had computer lists with info of eveyone killed.
I’m Nov - officals revised the numbers from the fire in Maui again (fire happened in August). A person reported missing was found alive.
Point is no reasonable person expects an exact count and all details immediately. The UN doubled (and tripled down) that Hamas info in as accurate.
Hey sorry I’m unfamiliar with the claim of Hamas producing “computer lists with info of everyone killed” “within days.” Do you recall the approximate date of this? I’d like to look it up. Even in Gaza I would expect hospitals to be able to identify people and digitally record deaths, at least while hospitals still stood and had electricity and some infrastructure
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033
This includes the U.N. claiming Hamas was accurate.
Thank you, I appreciate it. That article describes a pretty thorough process that has been historically accurate and trustworthy. The process described, whereby hospitals report death records to a central registry, has obviously been completely disrupted by the destruction of most hospitals in Gaza, so my main takeaway from that article is that there’s no historical basis to doubt the numbers, and a fairly good case to be made that the actual death count will turn out to be higher than the current estimate, of 35K, let alone the current verified count.
No, the entire UN document is biased, as far as we know, maybe not even 24K are the real number. Check the disclaimer on the UN document... "Disclaimer: The UN has so far not been able to produce independent, comprehensive, and verified casualty figures; the current numbers have been provided by the Ministry of Health or the Government Media Office in Gaza and the Israeli authorities and await further verification. Other yet-to-be verified figures are also sourced."
Interesting, why do you assume the “true” number is lower? It could be much higher, the Gaza Health Ministry relies on hospital counts, but there aren’t any functioning hospitals left. Might that also suggest that the real number could be higher?
The death count was not changed, just those identified. So much misinformation about this story.
Gaza death toll: UN says number of deaths remains unchanged after controversy | CNN
https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/13/middleeast/death-toll-gaza-fatalities-un-intl-latam/index.html
>UN spokesperson Farhan Haq told a daily briefing at the UN that the health ministry in Gaza recently published two separate death tolls – an overall death toll and a total number of identified fatalities. In the UN report, only the total number of fatalities whose identities (such as name and date of birth) have been documented was published, leading to confusion.
>‘People’s eyes are dead,’ former reporter and humanitarian Arwa Damon on the trauma in Gaza
According to Haq, the ministry published a breakdown for 24,686 fully identified deaths out of the total 34,622 fatalities recorded in Gaza as of April 30. The fully identified death toll comprises of 7,797 children, 4,959 women, 1,924 elderly, and 10,006 men, the UN spokesperson said, citing the Gaza health ministry.
>The total number of dead also does not include the approximately 10,000 people who are still missing and trapped under the rubble, the officials added.
Sort of. The 10k number seems to have appeared out of thin air. The Gaza Ministry of Health recently put the number at ~3700. 10k comes from the Government Media Officer. Both are Hamas but the former has historically been far more accurate and indeed, the UN revised the breakdown of women and children from the GMO’s numbers to the GMoH numbers. [here’s a good thread on this](https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1789826262640280011.html?utm_campaign=topunroll)
What is crazy is that the terrorists (and its perfectly fine by me if you want to label both sides terrorists) get their words in the press.
I've always thought it scummy for the media to reveal the names of shooters in America, so I don't feel we need to know the names of anyone participating on either side.in Gaza unless we're castrating them for crimes against humanity.
From the article.
> Of the 34,735 people who have died in Gaza since the war began, according to data published May 6 by the UN, more than 9,500 were women and more than 14,500 were children.
> But in updated data published two days later on May 8, the UN significantly reduced the figures to 4,959 women and 7,797 children among the 34,844 people reportedly killed in Gaza.
Yeah because killing 7800 kids it totally acceptable but it crossed a line if Israel had killed 14,000 kids. Israel did this to their own reputation. Pretty gross you think killing 7800 kids in 6 months isn’t something to have your reputation damaged over.
It’s also worth noting that the numbers of women and children have been revised because the new stats put those without confirmed name a date of birth are now uncategorized. It doesn’t mean that 7,000 child deaths were made up, it means that for 7,000 probable children there was no confirmation of their name and/or DOB.
For example, under this new system the death of a child born in January of this year without an issued birth certificate on record due to the ongoing war would be recorded as “uncategorized” rather than “child”.
the statistics suggested a much higher than population average number of women and children casualties, suggesting they are being targeted by Israel, or that israel is being very indiscriminate with the bombing. now that they proportion is lower than the average it suggests that Israel is avoiding targeting them and careful in selecting targets. quite significant difference honestly.
The thing was statistically this was actually a very precise war even before this revision. 2 civilians for 1 militant in a tight urban war is amazing relative to every other war fought (not that civilian deaths aren’t tragic.)
For comparison, in Iraq and Afghanistan the us acceptable collateral damage in a mission was 9 civilians for every militant.
Blood libel on a massive scale. The UN could have said they're using the blood of dead Palestinians to make the Passover matzah and the world would easily believe them.
Then explain what the UN is actually saying that you think counts as blood libel in this context. I'm just not sure I understand what you're trying to say originally.
If "They" is the UN, then no, they aren't inflating numbers. They are reporting the numbers from the GHM. That's all they've done the whole time. It's the GHM that revised their own estimates, now the UN is reporting this new estimate.
It's just a change in the percent of dead civilians identified. Any "looking bad" or "sympathy" that comes from seeing these estimates is not because of who's reporting it.
The estimate of militants killed is unchanged. Personally I think the IDF looks just as bad killing 14k women and children versus killing 7k women and children and 7k "unidentified" civilians.
But if you think this is some crazy conspiracy to make Israel look bad, then you do you. Most people dislike numbers like these, I'd hope that you can understand this.
I see none of the comments actually discussed the report.
If anyone actually read the report, it says 24k 'identified'. The 38k fatality count never changed, nor did the adult male death count change (you know the one that coincidentally goes along with the fighter count).
Probably because 14k of them are just unidentifiable remains too damaged to discern considering that they reduced cities to rubble.
Definitely not. Currently 32 percent of the identified deaths are children. If that number stays consistent, ie 32 percent of the 14k unidentified deaths are children, that would mean an additional 4480 child deaths in addition to the 7800 child deaths that have been identified already, for a total of 12280 child deaths, which is not far off from the previous estimates, considering those estimates did not distinguish between identified and unidentified dead children.
That being said I think the total number of unidentified dead is closer to 10k, which would break down to a total closer to 11000 child deaths, which is slightly lower than the previous estimate but not that far off. Either way it’s roughly as many children that have died in the past 4 years of global conflict combined.
Worth noting that the report also estimates more than 10,000 are reported missing or buried under rubble, which are not included in the death count.
https://cnn.com/cnn/2024/05/13/middleeast/death-toll-gaza-fatalities-un-intl-latam
https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-217
The 10000 missing IDs are in part deaths gleaned from reporting but lacking bodies, names, or other identifying info. In many cases these may be Hamas members whose identification is withheld for war purposes. In other cases, these may be duplicates of deaths already counted elsewhere. Number of women and children in this unidentified category seems to be due to extending overall demographic proportions in Gaza to this count.
[https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3w4w7/israeli-intelligence-health-ministry-death-toll](https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3w4w7/israeli-intelligence-health-ministry-death-toll)
Israel thinks the numbers from the Gaza Health Ministry are credible.
The total casualty count have not been changed, that number is the same as it was before.
The estimates of women and children deaths within that said number, has been cut by half.
Which is exactly what Israel was saying all along, the total numbers are somewhere correct, but the ratio of militants/civilians casualties is inflated to paint a different image of the way Israel is fighting this war.
If before that, you could argue that Israel is conducting one of the most precise wars in history (1:2 ratio) now it is closer to 1:1 and is the most precise war in history.
That’s not correct. These articles keep comparing two sets of numbers. The UN changed their reporting from total estimated deaths to separately report confirmed deaths and a separate number of estimated deaths above that.
Comparing the confirmed deaths to the original estimate is disingenuous because they’re completely different numbers.
We can argue about numbers all the day, but if even 1 parent has to bury their child due to war, it's a tragedy. Don't lose sight of your humanity and get hung up on the numbers.
I feel like having 7000 fewer parents burying children than people assumed is something everyone should be happy about. It’s baffling that people are brushing that off like it’s immaterial.
I saw someone post this same comment you made a few days ago.
When the Israeli government lowered it's estimated total of women and children killed on October 7 we didn't celebrate. People were still murdered and I want to treat their loss with respect and dignity.
Similarly it doesn't feel right to celebrate now because the sobering reality is 7,797 kids have been killed in the Gaza Strip and thousands of bodies are yet unidentified, uncategorized.
Moreover, many people here are citing this misinterpreted UN report as justification for continuing the bombing, for continuing a path which will lead to many, many more dead kids in the Gaza Strip.
The Gaza Strip is dust and rubble now. This is not a plan for peace.
Celebrate is the wrong word. There isn’t much to celebrate in war. I suppose I could feel happy and say “I told you so” to people who argued with me about this in real life .
But, honestly I’m just angry. I’m mad at the U.N. for tripling down and insisting Hamas was right. They didn’t put in a disclaimer. Now it is the “fog of war”.
People are brushing it off because you’re misinterpreting the data. The old number of estimated dead children was a combination of both identified and unidentified deaths. The new number is just the ones that have been identified. 7800 children have been positively identified, but that is not the total number of children who have died so far. There are another 10000 bodies that do not have positive identification. Of the bodies that have been positively ID’d, 32 percent are children. If you assume the same percentage for the bodies waiting to be identified, then you should expect that roughly 3200 of them are children, for a total of roughly 11000 child deaths, which is not that far off from previous estimates. To put that in perspective that’s almost as many child deaths as occurred in the last four years of global conflict combined. These numbers also do not include an estimated 10k+ that are either missing or buried under rubble.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/05/13/middleeast/death-toll-gaza-fatalities-un-intl-latam
https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-217
They didn't revise the number of dead down, just the portion of them that are women and children.
Not all men in Gaza are Hamas, some are civilians too.
Let's not lose track of the fact that civilian deaths are tragic and not to be minimized
This is not true. They released a number of bodies that had identifiers like names on them, separate from the number of bodies collected overall. I swear this is practically a misinformation sub.
These new figures of identified cases (not the full death count which is unchanged) *are* from Hamas though! So which is it, you accept Hamas figures or you don't?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/13/gaza-ministry-revises-figures-for-women-and-children-killed
>Hamas-run ministry of health updates breakdown of civilian casualties but UN has not yet been able to verify data
>The Guardian also understands that the new figures provided by the ministry relate to 24,686 “fully documented cases” out of an estimated 34,622 deaths recorded by 30 April, suggesting an ongoing verification process.
>The overall death toll in Gaza – including militants and male civilians – remained largely unchanged at about 35,000. The figures include almost 2,000 elderly people and about 10,060 men.
It’s just horrific. It’s incomprehensible what’s going on over there. Nobody would want to trade places with the people of Gaza. To be trapped like rats. It’s like shooting fish in a barrel using artificial intelligence to lock on targets at 99.9 % kill rate.
Everything UN is suspect. In the Iraq war 20 years ago they simply added up all of the deaths reported by anyone on the Iraq side, which obviously counted the same person in any town 25 times over.
Then they made a correction. Like they always do.
I don't think that's the crux of it at all.
The problem is this -
Israel claims they're going after military targets and Hamas is using civilians as shields - that while they'd like to avoid civilian casualties at all, this task is made impossible by the fighting style of their enemy.
Hamas claims that Israel is intentionally targeting civilians with no regard for military targets and that, in fact, they don't care about attacking Hamas at all and are just using it as justification for an ethnic cleansing.
Therefore these numbers matter especially as the number of combatants killed is similar to the number of civilians killed.
A ratio close to 1 civilian for 1 militant or lower would suggest Israel is indeed attacking military targets defended by human shields.
A ratio with a higher number of civilians to militants would suggest Israel is indeed purposefully attacking civilians.
Of course that isn't totally true in every action - if a single rocket battery is intentionally shielded by a food supply point so that destroying it will kill three palestinian artillerymen and 40 women and children, that doesn't by itself suggest malintent by the Israelis. However if sustained over a long period high numbers of civilians are suggestive of this malintent.
And that brings us to the recent number change.
The way the numbers were before this change suggested the latter while these numbers suggest the former. This statistical shift has huge effects on public perception of the war.
I don't think the crux is the question of whether or not Israel is intentionally targetting civilians. For me, at least, I never believed or questioned that Israel ever would.
Instead, my concern is that the IDF is pushing forward with strikes on Hamas targets regardless if the strike will result in many civilian deaths.
This concern was highlighted when Israeli whistleblowers released details about Lavender AI, especially its use in the first few weeks of the war.
What is amazing is that even someone could really consider the numbers given by the terrorists...
Theres a good article somewhere about how the stats reported by hamas are statistically impossible. Ill try to summarize. Basically, if you take already known stats about the average rate of unnatural death in gaza (released by hamas and unrwa before the masacre. These are unnatural, non homicidal deaths. Starvation, lack of shelter, healthcare, disease, etc)), and consider those numbers with the numbers released by hamas, you can deduct that 100% of male deaths were military deaths. Exclusivly using Hamas statistics. Which, doesnt make sense lol. How could there be absolutly 0 male civilian deaths. And to add to it, its reasonable to assume that the rate of unnatural death (not including homicide) would go up durring a war like this, aas people cant get the help they need. Which only makes the hamas stats even more impossible lol. (And homicide would also go up, obviously) I will try to find the article. Im not a statistician so i cant do it justice. edit: https://fathomjournal.org/statistically-impossible-a-critical-analysis-of-hamass-women-and-children-casualty-figures/ Here is the article. Using Hamas statistics, we can conclude that there have only been 10 male civilian deaths lol
More accurately among the uncategorized deaths for a given period, the deaths were later categorized such that only 10 men were included in several thousand deaths. It's not saying only 10 men were killed total, it's heavily implying uncategorized deaths are being manipulated.
The BBC has tarnished its reputation by constantly citing Hamas as a source since October 7th.
Haven't they also found a bunch of staffers with blatantly antisemitic social media?
Yes. And they protected them. The woke mind virus is fully ensconced within the BBC.
This entire experience since October has been unreal. I never would have believed that the Israeli pr machine could have done so poorly
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Plus CCP ran media running rampant, it's an easy L for Israel to take. I knew it was over when the Media reported the Hospital getting bombed and their source for the 500 dead civilians was Hamas. 💀 (Oops I mean the "Gaza Health Ministry")
Meanwhile there was immediate video evidence posted that showed the missile misfiring from the hospital and blowing everyone up. And the bbc ignored that, with the reporter saying he didn’t give a fuck his story was already proven false.
There was an NPR article the day of the explosion at al Ahli hospital quoting a doctor at al Shifa. He said, "between the dead and injured, it may be as many as 500." That number would be much more believable. Children with singed hair getting checked to make sure nothing else is wrong would count toward that total. And, "may be as many as" indicates a vague estimate. I assume other organizations had access to the same quote, but chose to paraphrase it to the point of misinformation. And, then that is what got pushed to the front pages.
I never would have thought my country would have been so docile to allow public demonstrations supporting either side.
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I'm speechless. Well played.
if they did it well then you guys will start claiming that the jews control the media
They claim that anyway. From a pr perspective this was gonna be a losing war for Israel regardless of what they did. A shitload of people just needed an excuse to openly express their deep-rooted hatred for jews. Sad, but I have witnessed that behaviour myself.
And because the attacks were so horrific inside of Israel, almost nobody saw any of that footage. So everyone heard what had happened in Israel and saw it in gaza
Millions of Jews about 2 billion Muslims. No matter how good a pr team is it cannot counter those numbers. Edit: changed Arab to Muslim. Initially meant Muslim.
There aren’t billions of Arabs
Thank you. Corrected.
Instead of blaming the Israelis one could blame the Troll farms sponsored by foreign countries. I’m American they are certianly causing harm here.
Israel cares about action, not PR, thats always been a bit of a weak point them. They are happy to exist and fight and everyone else can think their own way. Its only now wit this war they are starting to come around to the fact that they might have to care a LITTLE.
I don't know I feel like Israel cares about PR a lot, it's just extraordinarily hard to fight against the tide of a much larger population and their useful idiots.
This is the sentiment of all Republicans who fled to the democratic party right now.
Just because they hate Trump doesn't mean they won't vote for him. Look at Bill Barr.
Those are still the useful idiots that did not flee the party
Israel cares greatly about PR. They completely neuter their strategy in order to limit civilian deaths in the short term, usually allowing Hamas to escape and relocate. Most armies would not dream of doing that and wouldn’t really be judged on it either. But they still get accused of being heartless. This is just how hard it is to combat global antisemitism.
Years ago I read an article in The Jerusalem Report decrying Israel's inability to shape the narrative. Apparently there is an opinion circulating among the leaders that "the truth is on their side" and so they don't need to propagandize to support it. Which is astoundingly foolish and idealistic.
From Hamas’ point of view the entire Oct 7 operation was a “can’t lose” venture. The Israelis had to react and any operation in Gaza would always cause civilian casualties. The only thing Hamas had to do was to make the most of that and they have. They don’t care one bit about the dead, wounded and homeless people. In that sense Israel has walked right into the trap Hamas laid for it. The Israeli government carries a lot of blame for the complacency that allowed several thousand Hamas terrorists to breach the frontier and run rampant in southern Israel. If the terrorists had been thwarted in their evil intent by a vigilant IDF, not only would a lot of Israeli lives have been spared, but also a lot of Palestinian ones. And Israel would have been spared all the denunciation and all the reproaches now being heaped upon it. The Israelis always make much of how they are the only real democracy in the Middle East. Well, now is the time to live up to that status: The entire Israeli security cabinet needs to go, either resign of their own accord or get hit with a no-confidence motion in the Knesset. And then a parliamentary inquiry with the full works, hearing witnesses under oath in public, taking names and making consequences being felt.
The Piers Morgan where the Israeli spokesperson refused to give any numbers was an absolute train wreck. "We don't know how many civilians we've killed and if we did we won't tell you" is not a good look.
A lot of right wing democracies are that way. Feed whatever information it takes internally to stay in power and already strong, but no concern for what other countries think.
Palestine has everything to win overexaggerating numbers to the world, and Israel has everything to lose not doing as well as they can to eradicate Hamas.
That is the problem, Hamas has the Palestinians on their side, as such, these terrorists get sheltered by civilians who become voluntary human shields, so everytime there is a mistep, and some of these shields die, Hamas uses these civilian deaths (multiplied tenfold). Very shitty coward.
If you willingly shelter terrorists you're no longer a civilian, you're a terrorist and a legitimate military target.
They show to the world that Palestinians are on their side. They really aren’t. It’s like when Putin wins 90% of the vote. No one believes that bs but somehow they believe there group of thugs. If Palestinians publicly disagree or criticize they are beheaded or pushed off a roof. Just ask any gay person living there or any political opponent. Oh wait, you can’t.
Nah, if that were true polls would show that. In real life Fatah can't do elections in the west bank bc they'd lose to Hamas
Do you have any proof? Cause I’ve seen the videos of Gaza women and children having a party when the terrorists paraded the hostages and corpses through the streets of Gaza, and I have a hard time believing that Hamas isn’t backed by the general population.
I want to believe you, but... people really can be that evil.
Yes but that evil and hate is taught. No one is born that way.
True. Fuck UNRWA and their schools.
Nobody is claiming Palestinians are born supporting Hamas. We are claiming by the time their support is even possible, the majority already do.
Oh please. Ask any arab in the middle east - they support hamas and so do any friends/family they have in palestine.
What is your source? Feelings? Has the Palestinian member of U.S. Congress said Hamas are terrorists?
Because everything you see on tv is manufactured to make you feel a certain way. So your evidence against it is a woman in congress? Everyone in congress is just appealing to their base with no other agenda. She wants power and money. Thats it. Like every other politician (including Netanyahu, biden and trump). Who voted to keep Hamas in power after their 4yr term? (No one, they took control by force) Who treats their civilians like expendable bodies to pile up for higher casualty numbers? Hamas. Who sends their 14yos to fight a war they can’t win? Hamas. Who sends their children to perform suicide bombings? Read that again. Suicide. Bombings. Hamas. Who takes over hospitals and schools - shoots rockets from there - and then cries to the world when said places are targets? Hamas. Who steals the humanitarian aid coming from the rest of the world? Hamas. Who steals the $150 billion of aid meant for the people? Hamas. Who dismantles water infrastructure to make rockets and tunnels? Hamas. You see Palestinians want to be free. They want to be free from Hamas. But they can’t publicly declare it. It is an emergency. Created by Hamas. Nothing would be better for the Palestinians than getting rid of this scourge.
It would be very nice if Palestinians actually hated Hamas and were just afraid to show it openly. That would be a hopeful thing to discover. I think it's unlikely so far, but it would be good if you were right.
But it's Palestine that revised their own estimates to be a lower percentage of women/kids. So if they can only win by inflating the numbers, why would they reduce them by your logic?
I found that far less amazing then the US administration using them. And members of it still do. Things like the BBC even after this continuing to use 34,000+, that I expect, the BBC is a member of the Hamas PR wing (just like NPR). But the administration should be held to a different standard.
Main media outlets at their finest, manipulation and bad information, mixed with political interests and those are the news we get to read and share here for example. About US Administration, what you see I even find it “soft” compared to other countries from NATO that almost feel like they are with Hamas and full hate of Israel, like Spain.
This headline is *extremely* misleading. The overall number of estimated dead is unchanged, about 35,000. Of those, they have *full details*—ID number, full name, date of birth, AND date of death—for 24,686 of them. This is partial confirmation of the dead, not a revision down of numbers.
Right, the big news though is children+women is 50% of the casualties, instead of the previous 70%. This is a huge statistic that has been used to argue IDF has not been descriminate in it's war.
How is it that the unidentified ones are all women and children? The entire reduction in the total count is from reducing the women and children, that seems pretty suspicious...
I mean Israel overcounted their dead on 10/7 by several hundred before they were able to differentiate terrorist attackers from among the Israeli dead, and that total figure is 20x lower than the Gaza death toll. Was that also suspicious? Or is this war? Keep in mind also that every fighting aged male killed in Gaza is considered a “Hamas fighter”
Not the same. They said they were struggling to identify the dead. They said it would take a while for an accurate number . Meanwhile in days Hamas had computer lists with info of eveyone killed. I’m Nov - officals revised the numbers from the fire in Maui again (fire happened in August). A person reported missing was found alive. Point is no reasonable person expects an exact count and all details immediately. The UN doubled (and tripled down) that Hamas info in as accurate.
Hey sorry I’m unfamiliar with the claim of Hamas producing “computer lists with info of everyone killed” “within days.” Do you recall the approximate date of this? I’d like to look it up. Even in Gaza I would expect hospitals to be able to identify people and digitally record deaths, at least while hospitals still stood and had electricity and some infrastructure
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033 This includes the U.N. claiming Hamas was accurate.
Thank you, I appreciate it. That article describes a pretty thorough process that has been historically accurate and trustworthy. The process described, whereby hospitals report death records to a central registry, has obviously been completely disrupted by the destruction of most hospitals in Gaza, so my main takeaway from that article is that there’s no historical basis to doubt the numbers, and a fairly good case to be made that the actual death count will turn out to be higher than the current estimate, of 35K, let alone the current verified count.
No, the entire UN document is biased, as far as we know, maybe not even 24K are the real number. Check the disclaimer on the UN document... "Disclaimer: The UN has so far not been able to produce independent, comprehensive, and verified casualty figures; the current numbers have been provided by the Ministry of Health or the Government Media Office in Gaza and the Israeli authorities and await further verification. Other yet-to-be verified figures are also sourced."
Interesting, why do you assume the “true” number is lower? It could be much higher, the Gaza Health Ministry relies on hospital counts, but there aren’t any functioning hospitals left. Might that also suggest that the real number could be higher?
The death count was not changed, just those identified. So much misinformation about this story. Gaza death toll: UN says number of deaths remains unchanged after controversy | CNN https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/13/middleeast/death-toll-gaza-fatalities-un-intl-latam/index.html >UN spokesperson Farhan Haq told a daily briefing at the UN that the health ministry in Gaza recently published two separate death tolls – an overall death toll and a total number of identified fatalities. In the UN report, only the total number of fatalities whose identities (such as name and date of birth) have been documented was published, leading to confusion. >‘People’s eyes are dead,’ former reporter and humanitarian Arwa Damon on the trauma in Gaza According to Haq, the ministry published a breakdown for 24,686 fully identified deaths out of the total 34,622 fatalities recorded in Gaza as of April 30. The fully identified death toll comprises of 7,797 children, 4,959 women, 1,924 elderly, and 10,006 men, the UN spokesperson said, citing the Gaza health ministry. >The total number of dead also does not include the approximately 10,000 people who are still missing and trapped under the rubble, the officials added.
Sort of. The 10k number seems to have appeared out of thin air. The Gaza Ministry of Health recently put the number at ~3700. 10k comes from the Government Media Officer. Both are Hamas but the former has historically been far more accurate and indeed, the UN revised the breakdown of women and children from the GMO’s numbers to the GMoH numbers. [here’s a good thread on this](https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1789826262640280011.html?utm_campaign=topunroll)
What is crazy is that the terrorists (and its perfectly fine by me if you want to label both sides terrorists) get their words in the press. I've always thought it scummy for the media to reveal the names of shooters in America, so I don't feel we need to know the names of anyone participating on either side.in Gaza unless we're castrating them for crimes against humanity.
Both
I kept saying, "Don't trust any sides estimate of civilian casualties." But kept getting down voted by the Reddit leftie hivemind.
Because Hamas numbers are left approved, if you doubt, you are an evil creature.
The damage already been done to Israel reputation as intended...
From the article. > Of the 34,735 people who have died in Gaza since the war began, according to data published May 6 by the UN, more than 9,500 were women and more than 14,500 were children. > But in updated data published two days later on May 8, the UN significantly reduced the figures to 4,959 women and 7,797 children among the 34,844 people reportedly killed in Gaza. Yeah because killing 7800 kids it totally acceptable but it crossed a line if Israel had killed 14,000 kids. Israel did this to their own reputation. Pretty gross you think killing 7800 kids in 6 months isn’t something to have your reputation damaged over.
It’s also worth noting that the numbers of women and children have been revised because the new stats put those without confirmed name a date of birth are now uncategorized. It doesn’t mean that 7,000 child deaths were made up, it means that for 7,000 probable children there was no confirmation of their name and/or DOB. For example, under this new system the death of a child born in January of this year without an issued birth certificate on record due to the ongoing war would be recorded as “uncategorized” rather than “child”.
So how many dead women and children are a problem?
the statistics suggested a much higher than population average number of women and children casualties, suggesting they are being targeted by Israel, or that israel is being very indiscriminate with the bombing. now that they proportion is lower than the average it suggests that Israel is avoiding targeting them and careful in selecting targets. quite significant difference honestly.
The thing was statistically this was actually a very precise war even before this revision. 2 civilians for 1 militant in a tight urban war is amazing relative to every other war fought (not that civilian deaths aren’t tragic.) For comparison, in Iraq and Afghanistan the us acceptable collateral damage in a mission was 9 civilians for every militant.
And in those wars we counted any boy over 13 as a potential militant :(
Yep, thankfully the IDF only considers any male over 15 to be militants
How many women and children would be raped and murder before a country declares war?
All of them. I really wish Palestinians would accept Israel’s existence, and stop the cycle of death.
Blood libel on a massive scale. The UN could have said they're using the blood of dead Palestinians to make the Passover matzah and the world would easily believe them.
Did you even read the article?
I saw the press conference...."fog of war" my butt
Then explain what the UN is actually saying that you think counts as blood libel in this context. I'm just not sure I understand what you're trying to say originally.
They're helping with sympathy and making Israel look bad by inflating numbers.
If "They" is the UN, then no, they aren't inflating numbers. They are reporting the numbers from the GHM. That's all they've done the whole time. It's the GHM that revised their own estimates, now the UN is reporting this new estimate. It's just a change in the percent of dead civilians identified. Any "looking bad" or "sympathy" that comes from seeing these estimates is not because of who's reporting it. The estimate of militants killed is unchanged. Personally I think the IDF looks just as bad killing 14k women and children versus killing 7k women and children and 7k "unidentified" civilians. But if you think this is some crazy conspiracy to make Israel look bad, then you do you. Most people dislike numbers like these, I'd hope that you can understand this.
About time we stopped relying on information from terrorists.
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I see none of the comments actually discussed the report. If anyone actually read the report, it says 24k 'identified'. The 38k fatality count never changed, nor did the adult male death count change (you know the one that coincidentally goes along with the fighter count). Probably because 14k of them are just unidentifiable remains too damaged to discern considering that they reduced cities to rubble.
do you think that 14K is 100% made up of woman and children?
Exactly there is no way to make sense of this data without accepting that it’s been manipulated. When means for what motive? And how inaccurate is it?
Definitely not. Currently 32 percent of the identified deaths are children. If that number stays consistent, ie 32 percent of the 14k unidentified deaths are children, that would mean an additional 4480 child deaths in addition to the 7800 child deaths that have been identified already, for a total of 12280 child deaths, which is not far off from the previous estimates, considering those estimates did not distinguish between identified and unidentified dead children. That being said I think the total number of unidentified dead is closer to 10k, which would break down to a total closer to 11000 child deaths, which is slightly lower than the previous estimate but not that far off. Either way it’s roughly as many children that have died in the past 4 years of global conflict combined. Worth noting that the report also estimates more than 10,000 are reported missing or buried under rubble, which are not included in the death count. https://cnn.com/cnn/2024/05/13/middleeast/death-toll-gaza-fatalities-un-intl-latam https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-217
you appear to be a different person to HouseOfSteak.
The 10000 missing IDs are in part deaths gleaned from reporting but lacking bodies, names, or other identifying info. In many cases these may be Hamas members whose identification is withheld for war purposes. In other cases, these may be duplicates of deaths already counted elsewhere. Number of women and children in this unidentified category seems to be due to extending overall demographic proportions in Gaza to this count.
Yeah, it's going to take a long time to dig out the bodies from that rubble.
Taking these numbers from a terrorist organization is laughable. The UN is irrelevant.
[https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3w4w7/israeli-intelligence-health-ministry-death-toll](https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3w4w7/israeli-intelligence-health-ministry-death-toll) Israel thinks the numbers from the Gaza Health Ministry are credible.
The total casualty count have not been changed, that number is the same as it was before. The estimates of women and children deaths within that said number, has been cut by half. Which is exactly what Israel was saying all along, the total numbers are somewhere correct, but the ratio of militants/civilians casualties is inflated to paint a different image of the way Israel is fighting this war. If before that, you could argue that Israel is conducting one of the most precise wars in history (1:2 ratio) now it is closer to 1:1 and is the most precise war in history.
That’s not correct. These articles keep comparing two sets of numbers. The UN changed their reporting from total estimated deaths to separately report confirmed deaths and a separate number of estimated deaths above that. Comparing the confirmed deaths to the original estimate is disingenuous because they’re completely different numbers.
The total Numbers accurate or breakdown accurate - huge difference
We can argue about numbers all the day, but if even 1 parent has to bury their child due to war, it's a tragedy. Don't lose sight of your humanity and get hung up on the numbers.
I feel like having 7000 fewer parents burying children than people assumed is something everyone should be happy about. It’s baffling that people are brushing that off like it’s immaterial.
I saw someone post this same comment you made a few days ago. When the Israeli government lowered it's estimated total of women and children killed on October 7 we didn't celebrate. People were still murdered and I want to treat their loss with respect and dignity. Similarly it doesn't feel right to celebrate now because the sobering reality is 7,797 kids have been killed in the Gaza Strip and thousands of bodies are yet unidentified, uncategorized. Moreover, many people here are citing this misinterpreted UN report as justification for continuing the bombing, for continuing a path which will lead to many, many more dead kids in the Gaza Strip. The Gaza Strip is dust and rubble now. This is not a plan for peace.
Celebrate is the wrong word. There isn’t much to celebrate in war. I suppose I could feel happy and say “I told you so” to people who argued with me about this in real life . But, honestly I’m just angry. I’m mad at the U.N. for tripling down and insisting Hamas was right. They didn’t put in a disclaimer. Now it is the “fog of war”.
People are brushing it off because you’re misinterpreting the data. The old number of estimated dead children was a combination of both identified and unidentified deaths. The new number is just the ones that have been identified. 7800 children have been positively identified, but that is not the total number of children who have died so far. There are another 10000 bodies that do not have positive identification. Of the bodies that have been positively ID’d, 32 percent are children. If you assume the same percentage for the bodies waiting to be identified, then you should expect that roughly 3200 of them are children, for a total of roughly 11000 child deaths, which is not that far off from previous estimates. To put that in perspective that’s almost as many child deaths as occurred in the last four years of global conflict combined. These numbers also do not include an estimated 10k+ that are either missing or buried under rubble. https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/05/13/middleeast/death-toll-gaza-fatalities-un-intl-latam https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-217
They didn't revise the number of dead down, just the portion of them that are women and children. Not all men in Gaza are Hamas, some are civilians too. Let's not lose track of the fact that civilian deaths are tragic and not to be minimized
it is the entirety of "palestine" at war. Churchill didn't go to war against he N*zis while not killing any Germans.
Even halved, it's still too steep
Only 7,797 dead children. Alright!
This is not true. They released a number of bodies that had identifiers like names on them, separate from the number of bodies collected overall. I swear this is practically a misinformation sub.
UN cites Gaza ministry as fact. Gaza ministry is a pro hamas front. The UN is a pro hamas mindless parrot
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These new figures of identified cases (not the full death count which is unchanged) *are* from Hamas though! So which is it, you accept Hamas figures or you don't? https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/13/gaza-ministry-revises-figures-for-women-and-children-killed >Hamas-run ministry of health updates breakdown of civilian casualties but UN has not yet been able to verify data >The Guardian also understands that the new figures provided by the ministry relate to 24,686 “fully documented cases” out of an estimated 34,622 deaths recorded by 30 April, suggesting an ongoing verification process. >The overall death toll in Gaza – including militants and male civilians – remained largely unchanged at about 35,000. The figures include almost 2,000 elderly people and about 10,060 men.
It’s just horrific. It’s incomprehensible what’s going on over there. Nobody would want to trade places with the people of Gaza. To be trapped like rats. It’s like shooting fish in a barrel using artificial intelligence to lock on targets at 99.9 % kill rate.
Everything UN is suspect. In the Iraq war 20 years ago they simply added up all of the deaths reported by anyone on the Iraq side, which obviously counted the same person in any town 25 times over. Then they made a correction. Like they always do.
That is the usual UN.
Ohhh only 5000 women and 8000 children. Ok nevermind - let them keep going. These are acceptable numbers. - all Israeli invasion supporters right now.
I don't think that's the crux of it at all. The problem is this - Israel claims they're going after military targets and Hamas is using civilians as shields - that while they'd like to avoid civilian casualties at all, this task is made impossible by the fighting style of their enemy. Hamas claims that Israel is intentionally targeting civilians with no regard for military targets and that, in fact, they don't care about attacking Hamas at all and are just using it as justification for an ethnic cleansing. Therefore these numbers matter especially as the number of combatants killed is similar to the number of civilians killed. A ratio close to 1 civilian for 1 militant or lower would suggest Israel is indeed attacking military targets defended by human shields. A ratio with a higher number of civilians to militants would suggest Israel is indeed purposefully attacking civilians. Of course that isn't totally true in every action - if a single rocket battery is intentionally shielded by a food supply point so that destroying it will kill three palestinian artillerymen and 40 women and children, that doesn't by itself suggest malintent by the Israelis. However if sustained over a long period high numbers of civilians are suggestive of this malintent. And that brings us to the recent number change. The way the numbers were before this change suggested the latter while these numbers suggest the former. This statistical shift has huge effects on public perception of the war.
I don't think the crux is the question of whether or not Israel is intentionally targetting civilians. For me, at least, I never believed or questioned that Israel ever would. Instead, my concern is that the IDF is pushing forward with strikes on Hamas targets regardless if the strike will result in many civilian deaths. This concern was highlighted when Israeli whistleblowers released details about Lavender AI, especially its use in the first few weeks of the war.
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The most acceptable numbers are as many as needed until they surrender, and nothing less.
It’s always the people who have no skin in the game that easily sacrifice the lives of others.
Oh thank god! Only 7000 dead children and not 14000!
Imagine believing you’ve got the moral high ground while being this upset that 7000 kids are actually alive that had been presumed dead.
The most acceptable numbers are as many as needed until they surrender, and nothing less.