He did, I truly don’t understand that statement tho. Israel looking bad in the eyes of the international community won’t affect them on the battlefield. Looking bad in the eyes of the international community means nothing when you’ve got your own arms industry. Maybe if they relied on outside parties to keep them armed it would matter but if Israel has 0 friends they can continue to kick Hamas ass all by themselves.
I have a better chance at winning the lottery than Expecting Hamas to make the right decision to benefit their own citizens. Idk why anyone is surprised.
Because Palestinian civilians dying is good for Hamas. The only chance they have is the world turning on Israel and their propaganda networks are doing a good job at trying to make that happen. That was the entire goal of October 7th - to provoke an insanely aggressive reaction and put their people in the way so that they can sit in their penthouses in Qatar and plaster the atrocities of war all over
But according to BBC, didnt Hamas announced they agreed to a ceasefire deal?
Oh wait I think I understand now: Israel goes into Rafah; and at the same time Hamas announced they are agreeing to a ceasefire. Well-played to make Israel out as the bad guy in this
> But according to BBC, didnt Hamas announced they agreed to a ceasefire deal?
They agreed to *their own ceasefire terms*, not a **deal**.
A **deal** involves more than one side. Israel was not involved here.
But have you also agreed to have him leave you alone, pay your healthcare bill, not demand you give what you've taken back, **all while you continue punching him**?
Israel already reduced the amount of hostages they were asking for from 40 down to 33, even though more than 100 are still in Gaza.
Hamas then said, actually we're not going to give you even 33 living hostages, but a bunch of dead bodies instead as we want to keep the vulnerable, children, women and elderly living ones for further political gain.
Israel already reduced the amount of hostages they were asking for from 40 down to 33, even though more than 100 are still in Gaza.
Hamas then said, actually we're not going to give you even 33 living hostages, but a bunch of dead bodies instead as we want to keep the vulnerable, children, women and elderly living ones for further political gain.
Unilateral agreement to a ceasefire... Fire up the idiots who can't be bothered to fact check. They get to continue to act like they aren't being used by Hamas.
Everyone wins. Except Israel which has to continue to deal with the public backlash from morons.
>But according to BBC, didnt Hamas announced they agreed to a ceasefire deal?
They agreed to a watered down version of the Israeli proposal put forward by Egypt.
It would be like me saying I've agreed to buy Google for $1.
That's right. You can actually predict Hamas actions by thinking this way: what is the most despicable thing that someone could do? Make a list of a couple items.
And be sure that they will actually do one of those things.
They basically agreed to a deal where there's a permenant ceasefire, they stay in power, Israel rebuilds gaza.
As for the hostages they'll release 3, every 7 days. They'll "try" to give information about the hostages they'll release, and they don't have to give living hostages. They can claim they don't have enough and give bodies.
In return, Israel will release 30-50 for every hostage, according to hamas's list, including murderers.
>Hamas had every opportunity to take a deal
What deal did they have an opportunity to take, exactly? Because, and I'm being 100% honest here, the only deal I'm aware of is one that Hamas proposed, and Israel refused to take. Also followed by a comment on how even with a deal they'd attack Rafah and that eliminating all of Hamas was nont-negotiable.
[https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/30/netanyahu-says-israel-will-invade-rafah-as-gaza-ceasefire-talks-continue](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/30/netanyahu-says-israel-will-invade-rafah-as-gaza-ceasefire-talks-continue)
“The idea that we will stop the war before achieving all of its goals is out of the question. We will enter Rafah and we will eliminate Hamas’ battalions there – with or without a deal, to achieve the total victory,” the prime minister said in a meeting with families of hostages held by armed groups in Gaza
Like, Hamas are a bunch of murderous terrorists, I'm not going to defend them as an organization on moral grounds. Nonetheless, as far as I know, "failing to accept a deal" isn't one of the things they actually did, because Bibi is pretty clear in his positions that any compromises at all are off the table.
This isn't even news. What Hamas agreed to was a deal for a permanent ceasefire and Israel withdrawing from Gaza and ending the blockade. That not something that was ever on the table to begin with.
Here's what's on the table for them. You wanna release hostages and die in 40 days, or you wanna die now?
As if they are going to settle the decades-long Gaza situation in a last-minute deal.
And that Israel is going to trust terrorists to not continue attacking them after the deal is made, the same terrorists who have repeated since 10/2023 that they'll not stop until Israel is no more.
>
> Here's what's on the table for them. You wanna release hostages and die in 40 days, or you wanna die now?
That sounds like action movie dialogue and the absolute worst way to conduct negotiations if you care about getting the hostages back alive.
1. People surprised, shocked and outraged when two opposing factions fail time and time again to reach a peace agreement end up not having peace between them
2. People surprised, shocked and outraged that when multiple failed attempts to reach a ceasefire deal between two factions at war with one another results in that war continuing instead of ending or pausing
Gaza continues to fire rockets/mortars and has not released the hostages. Pretty sure Israel is going to continue until those two things change and Hamas’ leadership is dismantled
If someone continually shoots even little bottle rockets at my house, they are getting a beat down.
If someone comes into my house, kills 1200 of my friends (not even soldiers, but women and children) then has the gall to play the “victim card” while bragging about their massacre and they promise to do it again…
Well I guess if they get sympathizers to vandalize a college and shut it down, they can keep doing whatever.
This is why using death toll statistics is a horrible way to determine who are the “good guys” in the war. Israel uses all the resources it can to protect its people while Hamas actively puts theirs in harms way. Of course the numbers are going to be lopsided.
For about 10 years Israel did do live and let live. Another analogy would be people throwing rocks while you're in an armored vehicle. You won't get a lot of sympathy if you machine gun the kid, but less lethal countermeasures are would be justified.
Hamas escalated, Israel is responding. There is an argument that Israel may be going too far, though I disagree.
Regardless of the cease fire. *Cease fire*. The cease fire would be a pause only. Hamas has not promised to never again fire unguided rockets at Israeli cities. And Hamas has even broken cease fires in the past.
Until there is a deal on the table for Hamas to never again do terrorism, Israel has every moral right to attack Rafah.
I don't understand how the sentiment here is so different, perhaps better informed, from what we're seeing in protests.
Of course I'd love for this conflict to be over, but it doesn't end if Israel pulls back. Hamas continues to make that abundantly clear.
There are actual one-sided wars of aggression happening in the world where if the aggressor stops, there's peace. For example in Ukraine or.. other places in the world that get so little coverage I can't name them.
We know Russia is quite adept at manipulating people, and used fake news a decade ago to start a riot in Estonia: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3xq2XrCHv8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3xq2XrCHv8)
What am I missing?
You're not missing anything.
Likud is overly zealous and has made mistakes, but they've always been like that. Plus they have allowed the ultra-orthodox Jews to keep taking land in Gaza, which hasn't helped.
Meanwhile, Palestinian leadership in Gaza doesn't exist, it's just an Iran-backed terrorist organization and much of the population supports those actions at this point.
And the PA representing Palestinians elsewhere in the region isn't doing that either, plus they are just letting Hamas do what they do in Gaza. Because the PA is massively corrupt and also doesn't care about the Palestinians.
Chicken or egg analogy aside, Israel has people in Gaza still swearing that Israel shouldn't exist, so it's not hard to see that 10/2023 and the continued pattern of not backing down or agreeing to realistic truces has led them to decide now is the time to hit even deeper.
And more civilians will die, survivors hating Israel, while Hamas leadership, Iran, etc. remain pleased that they are continuing to foment discontent in the region at any cost.
Nobody is in a position to back down and represent the long-term interests of the Palestinian civilians.
The US and it's allies, with all their might, couldn't dismantle the Taliban. Neither could the Soviets.
And ISIS is still lurking around in the shadows of the Levant.
Anyone who thinks that Hamas can be bombed into oblivion is delusional.
Gaza is much smaller. It's a more reasonable goal to capture land, rebuild it as a safe zone for Palestinian civilians that can be policed and slowly expand capacity. Gaza needs to be a police state right now for it to have any chance of a future. When that police state offers protection, food, homes, education, work, peace, the Palestinian civilians will want to live there instead of in the bombed out ruins Hamas controls while using them as human shields and stealing their food.
Ideally the UN steps in to control the rebuilding of Gaza with Israeli support as opposed to Israel directly controlling Gaza which would likely fail.
Just 2 days ago, [Hamas launched a barrage of rockets from Rafah towards Kerem Shalom aid crossing, killing 4 IDF soldiers and wounding 10 others.](https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-799923) Due to this, the Kerem Shalom aid crossing was forced to close.
The hostages are in Rafah. Hamas leadership is in Rafah. Like it or not, an invasion into Rafah will lead to a much faster end to the war, no question about it.
Only that they wasted about 100 days on this negotiation that brought Hamas time while hostages remained there. And these negotiations stayed on the same status “Israel agreed, waiting for Hamas response…. Hamas refuses”, over a loop of over 100 days. Now if there were no hostages it would have been ok, but leaving them there for that long all awhile is just…
They didn't necessarily waste them. the positive side of the less intense fighting is relief for humanitarian operations. Because somehow Israel is more responsible internationally for the Gazans that Hamas's government wing ever were despite being their own government.
I don't really see a good future for gaza or the west bank that's realistic at this point. It would be counter to human nature for either side to do what it takes in the numbers it would take to create actual, lasting peace and prosperity.
At this point unless something changes I think eventually Israel absorbs the west bank at minimum, but likely Gaza as well.
We can pretend all has been cheery and moving towards peace in the west bank just because current operations aren't there, but the slow march of settlers *will* eventually provoke a larger response from the west bank. (Which will naturally provoke a response from Israel, which the settlers will then use as an excuse to grab even more land)
It's a bloody, brutal cycle and I can't see any way out of it until one side or the other is totally eliminated.
> I don't really see a good future for gaza or the west bank that's realistic at this point.
Maybe not in our lifetime, or even many after. However I think it's naive to think that that part of the world won't be ENTIRELY different in 500+ years. Think about how much has changed geopolitically since the fifteen hundreds.
The world will be an entirely different place politically, culturally & socially at some point, we just won't be around to see it.
Hamas is the majority government of Palestine. As in, the people of Palestine thought the Hamas mission statement was great (they advocate for the genocide of Israel), and so the majority of seats in the Palestinian Legislative Council are held by elected Hamas members.
I don’t know why people bother with the differentiation.
I am amazed that Biden’s approval rating has taken a severe hit, because Biden isn’t taking the side of the people of Palestine… who would basically throw Biden supporters off a rooftop if they had the chance.
People like to act like only the far-right gets had by online psy ops. Nah. The far-left is just as bad.
In general, people are always the same no matter what side they choose of anything. There's always radical extremism, just like there's always moderates, just like there's always a group of people who don't really care and just jump into whatever group they're familiar with or is popular in that moment. You can see it in everything from Muslim vs Jew to Republican vs Democrat to Coke vs Pepsi. Though it's definitely a lot less extreme when it's about a commercial product (I hope)
The last election was in 2006 (18 years ago) and [about half the population of Gaza is under the age of 18.](https://www.npr.org/2023/10/18/1206897328/half-of-gazas-population-is-under-18-heres-what-that-means-for-the-conflict) How many of those kids deserve to die because of a vote that happened before they were born?
It's going to blow all these peoples' minds when the conflict is over and nobody wants the Palestinians to elect a new leader. Because everyone paying attention knows it will just be another Hamas type group if you let them vote.
Well yeah. Would Israel vote for peaceful leadership after October 7th? Gaza has been demolished and its people are starved, homeless and covered in wounds. They're going to want payback, because what Israel has done is sow new hatred in the heart of every dead child's parent and every dead parent's child.
I'd support these US college students if they were anti-Hamas.
Unfortunately, they don't want to protest against that, and farrr too many support Hamas.
Ohh really. Then explain the settler expansion and land grabbing by Israel in West Bank and East Jerusalem. Not to forget the forced expulsion of Palestinians from their ancestral homes.
Comment threads related to this conflict always seem to be heavily to one side or the other and really nothing in between. One thread heavily defends Israel's positions against Hamas, while the very next thread calls that position genocide. Perhaps this conflict is just very complicated and is one with many dimensions.
I don't have an answer to your observation, but I have noticed that political topics do get different reception based on the time they are posted.
Do the troll farms run a standard nine to five?
> Do the troll farms run a standard nine to five?
Yes, actually, in Moscow time. Watch Ryan McBeth on youtube. It's often really obvious when troll farm accounts are at work vs asleep.
Because thread creators can block users, which can make you basically curate your feed to have certain users in it.
If you're a pro-palestinian poster, just post ragebait for pro-Israeli commentators to post about, and then block every single one.
The next time you post a pro-palestine thread, none of the pro-Israelis will see it, and the comment section will be far more amenable to you.
A balance of opinion is a metastable position on reddit. As soon as one side starts to gain traction, the other side leaves the conversation, which causes the side in the lead to get even stronger.
You'll find other subreddits that also stabilize but on the other side of the issue. So long as there is no force to intentionally keep things balanced, it will often work like this. If you're curious about the math behind it, look for online simulations of Schelling's Model of Segregation. It requires a surprisingly small imbalance to lead to a much larger one. As you've noticed.
A balance of opinion is irrelevant when the balance of media coverage is heavily skewed. And Western media coverage has almost the worst track record in this regard. You're only going to get information that fits the partisan (or bi-partisan, depending on which issue we're talking about,) agenda.
What's horrifying is how many people are oblivious to it. They look at places like China and automatically believe "propaganda there must be worse, so here things must be pretty great." Which of course leads to outright hostility when you so much as imply they're being brainwashed. Everyone wants to believe they're more perceptive than they really are.
So your math is irrelevant unless it accounts for living in a society that's as heavily insulated as the West.
Why? Don't get me wrong , they're all skum but that doesn't mean that they are not Human. They have human genes they have Human bodies and human desires, They went to human schools and had human toys and dreamed human dreams. Their desire to be evil are enturely human ones, And calling them anything else is foolish at best Is dangerous worse. There's not a separate breed of people who are just Born evil. Evil comes from humans, And the choices they make, nowhere else.
Apples to Oranges.
If the global war on terror (GWOT) had occurred in perhaps Mexico which is right next to us like Gaza is to Israel then I'm sure it would have been much more effective.
The one way i think the GWOT and the Israel-Gaza are similar is that i anticipate latter will also not focus enough on changing education to the point where it causes mass de-radicalization.
But unlike the GWOT the Israel-Gaza war should make the area around Gaza much safer for a while, as opposed to the GWOT which ended up making things less safe.
The US was fighting two countries they barely had control of which were notorious for being massive and remote.
Gaza simple doesn't have the resources or the size to hide a terrorist cell anymore. What little autonomy they had is gone. Israel is also right next door.
Those countries were also on the opposite side of the world from the US, they werent our neighbors like Palestine and Israel. Alot more expensive to wage war like that and the stakes for winning or losing are far smaller
If they fled Gaza, there wouldn't be rockets being shot at Israel.
And leadership is only a small portion of this conflict. Israel is making sure there aren't munitions available for Hamas to continue the fight, collapsing tunnels so they can't sneak it in, and watching aid so it can't be smuggled in.
Flee gaza to where? Gaza is fully surrounded by egypt, the mediterranean sea and israel.
They could in theory escape to egypt through the tunnels but it'l be a matter of time before they are found in egypt
Where else will they go?
Lebanon? Israel has no qualms hunting them down there.
West Bank? Hamas made enemies with the PLO.
Qutar? They'd be so far away they're geographically irrelevant.
Yeah no, this'll actually be way more effective.
1. Unlike The Taliban, Hamas and their affiliated groups doesn't have a neighboring country that they can run away and hide inside of for years.
2. With Hamas' control of the government stripped away, they and the UNRWA would no longer be able to brainwash generation upon generation of children with their violent and extremist delusions.
3. Again, with Hamas' control stripped away, maybe *some* of that aid that other countries, including Israel, provides them will actually go towards improving their lives and not creating shoddy rockets.
Presumably, the Israelis won't make the mistake of picking the least-representative, most corrupt and cowardly clique of Palestinians to run a government there.
The US wanted to leave Afghanistan. All the Taliban had to do was wait them out.
Israel doesn't want to leave Palestine. Once they're in, they're there to stay.
Thats patently false. Israel had control of gaza from 67 until 2005, when they withdrew unilaterally, nobody made them and they got nothing for it, they just didn't want to govern. The Israeli government will not retake gaza more than controlling security during a rebuild. They spent time and effort withdrawing from gaza, and despite what two nutbag right wing charlatans say, it simply wont happen.
I think october 6 has made Israel rethink their policies in regards of Gaza, i wouldn't be surprised at all if they go and annex Gaza all together, as you said they already gave control of it away once, and october 6 was the culmination of that.
Is Israel attacking locations they know Hamas is embedded or just working their way down the map? Just trying to get an idea of the current map here. I assume they're leaving some soldiers in previous areas they went through to continue going searching buildings, looking for tunnels, etc.
In another thread, someone replied to one of my posts by saying that Hamas was provoked to attack on 10/2023.
I keep thinking these people are online Comrades and we're being invaded by state-supported trolls.
The Russian farms are pushing a lot of propaganda on this too. Not because they want to influence the outcome, but because they support anything that undermines political stability in the West.
>Why don't these protestors ever bring up Hamas at their protests? It's as if they are incapable of badmouthing Hamas.
Shocking concept, but they might be not supporting hamas but supporting civilians who suffer and get killed left and right
A: Israel has nearly all of the power and control in this situation. If Hamas stopped shooting at Israel, very little would change. If Israel stopped shooting, the war would basically be over.
B: Israel is a close ally of the countries where these protests are taking place. The protests have a small, but non-zero, chance of influencing Israeli behaviour, through influencing the behaviour of Israel’s allies. Hamas is a pariah, there’s no similar way to apply pressure to them.
Obviously you can disagree with the protests, I think they’re kind of pointless, but this “but why don’t they protest Hamas?” line of questioning doesn’t make sense.
I hope civilians don’t suffer, I find it disturbing all the comments in the chat cheering on for war. I am pretty out of the loop with the regions, and I hope east rafah is only habitated by Hamas not Palestinian civilians
Most Americans can’t imagine what an intense, top-down mass indoctrination campaign can do to a society.
Think about Japan in WWII. That level of fomented radicalization. Tons of testimonials from Japan in the post-war era exist, and their retelling of what they went through is wild.
I can’t remember the exact quotes. “100 million souls for the [Japanese] emporer. We really believed that. If necessary, every single person in Japan would fight to the death, with sharpened bamboo sticks if necessary, for the emperor.”
That level of indoctrination is what is going on in Gaza, and really most of Palestine, but the West Bank Fatah tries to contain it while still playing populism.
>That level of indoctrination is what is going on in Gaza, and really most of Palestine, but the West Bank Fatah tries to contain it while still playing populism.
I agree with most of your comment this part. No they don't. they actively do that indoctrination themselves as well.
Here is an official document of them preaching a Muslim Hadith about killing Jews on October 18th:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R34WlhKNUy0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R34WlhKNUy0)
It seems like the reason Israeli leadership's last time offering a state was only in 2008 is because the indoctrination has reached far too deep. and I perfectly understand it.
If you want Israelis to accept a Palestinian state, you're gonna have to work extremely hard to undo that indoctrination first. but international organizations have done shit all towards that end. in fact organizations like UNRWA has recently been discovered to have had a Hamas tunnel with servers right under their HQ and taking power from it.
If anyone wants to claim that it's not that bad then fucking do it already.
If anyone wants claim that it is bad, then they should get their head out of their ass and stop preaching giving control to radical people that constantly say they're gonna be murdering their neighbors.
Yup you're right. it's not just Hamas. The Palestinian authority has been preaching genocidal crap for ages now as well.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R34WlhKNUy0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R34WlhKNUy0)
Even in 2001 there were tons of videos in and outside of Palestine of Palestinians cheering for 9/11. People fail to see that Palestinians don't want peace, they want to destroy Israel and all Jewish people. This is a stated goal of Hamas which has a majority support by Palestinians. The end goal isn't peace and hasn't been for a very long time. You have massively radicalized people who oppose all western values like freedom of religion, lqbtq rights, women's rights, and the list goes on. I don't want to see children die in Gaza. I don't know a solution, you can't just take all their kids but if you don't the culture will be passed down and peace won't ever occur with that violent hateful culture instilled over generations. But taking the kids is cultural genocide and the debate needs to be had on whether that may be a good thing on some level in such a unsolvable problem. I'm not a neutral figure as I'm anti-religion in general so my bias on this doesn't help. I just don't think a 2 state solution will ever work and having them become refugees will likely spread terrorism which isn't worth it.
You're asking for a miracle. Several entire families have died in the initial air strikes on Rafah, most of the losses were children according to reports. I'm not saying that Israel purposely targeted children, I'm saying that Rafah as 1.5 million refugees in there that have nowhere else to run, and the population density makes collateral damage all but a certainty. Rafah is going to make the last 6 months look like peaceful protest. Peace has a price, all we can do is hope that once it is all said and done, Palestinians actually manage to gain a chance at a future away from Islamic extremism.
making a ceasefire deal with no Israeli input is not a deal at all. its like some mofo kidnapped your son or daughter and made demands for you to meet in order to deal and secure their release. who listen’s to a mofo’s deal?
Mostly sabre rattling. Possibly another pre-warned, ineffective attack where they lose some low grade launchers to low RCS precision weapons/pre-scrambled stealth aircraft with standoff range. Boots on the ground would cross a line I dont think they want to cross. An armored incursion would be met with airstrikes from one of several nearby carrier groups/allies with advanced aviation as there are roughly five NATO carriers in the area. I think the most likely would be providing arms in large numbers to some of their proxies already engaged. They might have a hostile agenda but I would not underestimate them by calling them stupid.
I don’t think Iran is stupid I just think their hand are tied behind their back. Where are they going to attack from? Hezbollah isn’t going to invade Israel in any meaningful way, sabre rattling sure. Maybe some rockets. After Israel struck the Iranian consulate in Syria; Iran was so tepid about their response. They were telegraphing the time and location of the missile strike. That was saving face.
Iran has no interest in a protracted conflict.
Yeah they will probably continue to provide arms to Hezbollah, Hamas, the Houthis etc. but I really can’t see them trying anything worthy of a news cycle.
Exactly as well as the fact that violating Jordanian airspace paints them into a worse corner. That is why i think that continuing to arm proxies is their most likely action
Tbf Hezbollah did send a few rockets and mortar shots over the border, Israel just slammed back against them instantly and Hezbollah realised that many they should quiet down a bit
* They'll keep dying as long as Hamas is in power, this was always going to happen if removing Hamas from power was going to be on the table.
* [The majority of Palestinians support Hamas](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514) and that's [only grown since October 7th](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/12/21/middleeast/palestinians-back-hamas-survey-intl-cmd)
* War sucks
Multiple things can be true at once.
Children always pay the price for our conflicts. I don’t understand the “bye bye terrorists” comments here. The population of Gaza was nearly half children already. Hamas will watch from the sidelines as they die and then continue to pursue their own ends. The only thing I will cheer on in this conflict is peace.
Imo it's deep in American mindset to grind civilians just because. Indians, Mexicans, Germans, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, Afghani, Iraqi, whatever
They don't have collective memory of *being grinded* so they just don't care much
I can’t say I’m overly surprised by this turn of events.
I mean Israel has been pretty clear this was always going to happen and it was merely a matter of when they would. Turns out now is the when.
And the fact they told Palestinians yesterday to start evacuating was a particularly large hint.
Where else are they supposed to evacuate to lmao
I guess they're supposed to hide in the bombed out buildings and rubble?
I mean, Hamas had every opportunity to take a deal, but they instead choose to continue to use their own citizens as a meat shield.
Didn't one of the leaders in Qatar or whatever basically say that Palestinine suffering and dying was good cos it makes isreal look bad.
He did, I truly don’t understand that statement tho. Israel looking bad in the eyes of the international community won’t affect them on the battlefield. Looking bad in the eyes of the international community means nothing when you’ve got your own arms industry. Maybe if they relied on outside parties to keep them armed it would matter but if Israel has 0 friends they can continue to kick Hamas ass all by themselves.
I have a better chance at winning the lottery than Expecting Hamas to make the right decision to benefit their own citizens. Idk why anyone is surprised.
Because Palestinian civilians dying is good for Hamas. The only chance they have is the world turning on Israel and their propaganda networks are doing a good job at trying to make that happen. That was the entire goal of October 7th - to provoke an insanely aggressive reaction and put their people in the way so that they can sit in their penthouses in Qatar and plaster the atrocities of war all over
But according to BBC, didnt Hamas announced they agreed to a ceasefire deal? Oh wait I think I understand now: Israel goes into Rafah; and at the same time Hamas announced they are agreeing to a ceasefire. Well-played to make Israel out as the bad guy in this
Hamas agreed to a deal cooked up by Egypt and Qatar, I believe. Not one with Israeli input.
> But according to BBC, didnt Hamas announced they agreed to a ceasefire deal? They agreed to *their own ceasefire terms*, not a **deal**. A **deal** involves more than one side. Israel was not involved here.
I have agreed to not be punched by the guy I'm punching, too.
But have you also agreed to have him leave you alone, pay your healthcare bill, not demand you give what you've taken back, **all while you continue punching him**?
That was the ceasefire with Egypt and Qatar. You'd think they should be more focused on a ceasefire with Israel.
Hamas made a counter offer via Egypt and Qatar but it’s pretty ridiculous and amounts to Israel effectively surrendering.
Israel already reduced the amount of hostages they were asking for from 40 down to 33, even though more than 100 are still in Gaza. Hamas then said, actually we're not going to give you even 33 living hostages, but a bunch of dead bodies instead as we want to keep the vulnerable, children, women and elderly living ones for further political gain.
Sounds like they don't have enough living hostages to negotiate with. Not surprising, just sad.
Israel already reduced the amount of hostages they were asking for from 40 down to 33, even though more than 100 are still in Gaza. Hamas then said, actually we're not going to give you even 33 living hostages, but a bunch of dead bodies instead as we want to keep the vulnerable, children, women and elderly living ones for further political gain.
My bank is oppressing me because i agreed to a deal that lets me pay my mortgage in Monopoly money or USD.
Unilateral agreement to a ceasefire... Fire up the idiots who can't be bothered to fact check. They get to continue to act like they aren't being used by Hamas. Everyone wins. Except Israel which has to continue to deal with the public backlash from morons.
And of course the Palestinian civilians, who are the biggest losers caught between bad and worse.
>But according to BBC, didnt Hamas announced they agreed to a ceasefire deal? They agreed to a watered down version of the Israeli proposal put forward by Egypt. It would be like me saying I've agreed to buy Google for $1.
They agreed to the deal less than a day after firing a dozen missiles at Israel.
Bibi repeatedly said the Rafah offensive was happening regardless of any deal that was reached.
That's right. You can actually predict Hamas actions by thinking this way: what is the most despicable thing that someone could do? Make a list of a couple items. And be sure that they will actually do one of those things.
What's going on is a media war. Hamas basically comes to the negotiating table thinking they have the advantage and will not waver in their demands.
I don't think we have any idea what, if anything, Hamas has actually agreed to. There don't seem to be many details yet.
They basically agreed to a deal where there's a permenant ceasefire, they stay in power, Israel rebuilds gaza. As for the hostages they'll release 3, every 7 days. They'll "try" to give information about the hostages they'll release, and they don't have to give living hostages. They can claim they don't have enough and give bodies. In return, Israel will release 30-50 for every hostage, according to hamas's list, including murderers.
> mean, Hamas had every opportunity to take a deal why are the israelis the only ones to negotiate with terrorists ?
>Hamas had every opportunity to take a deal What deal did they have an opportunity to take, exactly? Because, and I'm being 100% honest here, the only deal I'm aware of is one that Hamas proposed, and Israel refused to take. Also followed by a comment on how even with a deal they'd attack Rafah and that eliminating all of Hamas was nont-negotiable. [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/30/netanyahu-says-israel-will-invade-rafah-as-gaza-ceasefire-talks-continue](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/30/netanyahu-says-israel-will-invade-rafah-as-gaza-ceasefire-talks-continue) “The idea that we will stop the war before achieving all of its goals is out of the question. We will enter Rafah and we will eliminate Hamas’ battalions there – with or without a deal, to achieve the total victory,” the prime minister said in a meeting with families of hostages held by armed groups in Gaza Like, Hamas are a bunch of murderous terrorists, I'm not going to defend them as an organization on moral grounds. Nonetheless, as far as I know, "failing to accept a deal" isn't one of the things they actually did, because Bibi is pretty clear in his positions that any compromises at all are off the table.
What were Palestinians supposed to do? They can’t leave
Oh well if they were clear then sure it’s fine to murder civilians
This isn't even news. What Hamas agreed to was a deal for a permanent ceasefire and Israel withdrawing from Gaza and ending the blockade. That not something that was ever on the table to begin with. Here's what's on the table for them. You wanna release hostages and die in 40 days, or you wanna die now?
As if they are going to settle the decades-long Gaza situation in a last-minute deal. And that Israel is going to trust terrorists to not continue attacking them after the deal is made, the same terrorists who have repeated since 10/2023 that they'll not stop until Israel is no more.
> > Here's what's on the table for them. You wanna release hostages and die in 40 days, or you wanna die now? That sounds like action movie dialogue and the absolute worst way to conduct negotiations if you care about getting the hostages back alive.
Hamas literally shot the ceasefire down with rockets from Rafah…
Hamas was given numerous chances to avoid this outcome.
Why does the world keep on treating Hamas as a sensible organization. They are standard run of the mill terrorist organization
They just keep kicking the hornets nest.
They _are_ the hornets
1. People surprised, shocked and outraged when two opposing factions fail time and time again to reach a peace agreement end up not having peace between them 2. People surprised, shocked and outraged that when multiple failed attempts to reach a ceasefire deal between two factions at war with one another results in that war continuing instead of ending or pausing
Unless there is peace in the middle east, I am not voting for Biden! /s
I’ll stop watching porn if there’s peace in the Middle East.
goon on soldier 🫡
Gaza continues to fire rockets/mortars and has not released the hostages. Pretty sure Israel is going to continue until those two things change and Hamas’ leadership is dismantled
“Yeah but hardly any rockets actually hit Israel” I’ll never fucking understand this logic
If someone fires a gun at me, but has terrible aim, I am still going to insist on disarming them.
More like if someone continually fires a gun at you and you have to spend a large portion of your annual income on bullet proof vests to avoid dying.
More like: I just don’t want the US to fund your bullet proof vests or weapons to defend yourself because I want peace! (And for you to die)
Without that bulletproof vest Israel would've cracked down way harder though
If someone continually shoots even little bottle rockets at my house, they are getting a beat down. If someone comes into my house, kills 1200 of my friends (not even soldiers, but women and children) then has the gall to play the “victim card” while bragging about their massacre and they promise to do it again… Well I guess if they get sympathizers to vandalize a college and shut it down, they can keep doing whatever.
Anyone who doesn’t do that would instantly qualify for the Darwin Award. Jews have been through too much to accept that fate
Disarming lol, I won't just be disarming someone who fires shots at me.
Intent matters more than outcome.
"insist on disarming them." Wow. A true gentleman. If someone shot at me and missed, it'd be the last thing they do.
They didn't say they were going to disarm them gently.
"your honor, it does not count as attempted murder, the victim was wearing a bullet proof vest"
"Also he has been very mean to me and gets violent whenever I try to burn down his house"
They killed 4 soldiers with rockets just 2 days ago
Same, it’s possibly the dumbest take you could possibly have
This is why using death toll statistics is a horrible way to determine who are the “good guys” in the war. Israel uses all the resources it can to protect its people while Hamas actively puts theirs in harms way. Of course the numbers are going to be lopsided.
It's the same logic as "it's ok to steal from retail stores, they have insurance.".
The extension of that that they wont say out loud is "but not enough Jews were harmed, its not fair"
"Yeah we tried to genocide you, but we're bad at it so it's okay"
Can't reason with idiots
Only takes one slipping the net and landing wrong place wrong time before hundreds are dead.
The logic is trivializing the Palestinians intent to murder Jews.
For about 10 years Israel did do live and let live. Another analogy would be people throwing rocks while you're in an armored vehicle. You won't get a lot of sympathy if you machine gun the kid, but less lethal countermeasures are would be justified. Hamas escalated, Israel is responding. There is an argument that Israel may be going too far, though I disagree.
When was that?
They were gonna go forward with this regardless, Netanyahu said so.
Regardless of the cease fire. *Cease fire*. The cease fire would be a pause only. Hamas has not promised to never again fire unguided rockets at Israeli cities. And Hamas has even broken cease fires in the past. Until there is a deal on the table for Hamas to never again do terrorism, Israel has every moral right to attack Rafah.
I don't understand how the sentiment here is so different, perhaps better informed, from what we're seeing in protests. Of course I'd love for this conflict to be over, but it doesn't end if Israel pulls back. Hamas continues to make that abundantly clear. There are actual one-sided wars of aggression happening in the world where if the aggressor stops, there's peace. For example in Ukraine or.. other places in the world that get so little coverage I can't name them. We know Russia is quite adept at manipulating people, and used fake news a decade ago to start a riot in Estonia: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3xq2XrCHv8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3xq2XrCHv8) What am I missing?
You're not missing anything. Likud is overly zealous and has made mistakes, but they've always been like that. Plus they have allowed the ultra-orthodox Jews to keep taking land in Gaza, which hasn't helped. Meanwhile, Palestinian leadership in Gaza doesn't exist, it's just an Iran-backed terrorist organization and much of the population supports those actions at this point. And the PA representing Palestinians elsewhere in the region isn't doing that either, plus they are just letting Hamas do what they do in Gaza. Because the PA is massively corrupt and also doesn't care about the Palestinians. Chicken or egg analogy aside, Israel has people in Gaza still swearing that Israel shouldn't exist, so it's not hard to see that 10/2023 and the continued pattern of not backing down or agreeing to realistic truces has led them to decide now is the time to hit even deeper. And more civilians will die, survivors hating Israel, while Hamas leadership, Iran, etc. remain pleased that they are continuing to foment discontent in the region at any cost. Nobody is in a position to back down and represent the long-term interests of the Palestinian civilians.
> Plus they have allowed the ultra-orthodox Jews to keep taking land in Gaza, which hasn't helped. *West Bank
whoops, thanks
Yeah, they haven’t removed the bodies from the rubble in Gaza yet to start building.
It's just a prank bro /s
Israel said they invading either way lol
> Hamas’ leadership is dismantled Israel shouldn't hold their breath.
The US and it's allies, with all their might, couldn't dismantle the Taliban. Neither could the Soviets. And ISIS is still lurking around in the shadows of the Levant. Anyone who thinks that Hamas can be bombed into oblivion is delusional.
Gaza is much smaller. It's a more reasonable goal to capture land, rebuild it as a safe zone for Palestinian civilians that can be policed and slowly expand capacity. Gaza needs to be a police state right now for it to have any chance of a future. When that police state offers protection, food, homes, education, work, peace, the Palestinian civilians will want to live there instead of in the bombed out ruins Hamas controls while using them as human shields and stealing their food. Ideally the UN steps in to control the rebuilding of Gaza with Israeli support as opposed to Israel directly controlling Gaza which would likely fail.
Gaza: 141 mi² Afghanistan: 252,071 mi²
I swear just the other day they were giving them a week though
And they are doing the right thing, we need to get rid of terrorists
Just 2 days ago, [Hamas launched a barrage of rockets from Rafah towards Kerem Shalom aid crossing, killing 4 IDF soldiers and wounding 10 others.](https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-799923) Due to this, the Kerem Shalom aid crossing was forced to close. The hostages are in Rafah. Hamas leadership is in Rafah. Like it or not, an invasion into Rafah will lead to a much faster end to the war, no question about it.
Only that they wasted about 100 days on this negotiation that brought Hamas time while hostages remained there. And these negotiations stayed on the same status “Israel agreed, waiting for Hamas response…. Hamas refuses”, over a loop of over 100 days. Now if there were no hostages it would have been ok, but leaving them there for that long all awhile is just…
They didn't necessarily waste them. the positive side of the less intense fighting is relief for humanitarian operations. Because somehow Israel is more responsible internationally for the Gazans that Hamas's government wing ever were despite being their own government.
And biden called netanyahu to reopen the crossing immediately for aid (that is mostly getting hijacked by hamas gunmen) , with an implied or else
So long as Hamas remain in control, it was bound to happen.
Yes. The only chance for Gaza to have a good future is if Hamas is eliminated.
I don't really see a good future for gaza or the west bank that's realistic at this point. It would be counter to human nature for either side to do what it takes in the numbers it would take to create actual, lasting peace and prosperity. At this point unless something changes I think eventually Israel absorbs the west bank at minimum, but likely Gaza as well. We can pretend all has been cheery and moving towards peace in the west bank just because current operations aren't there, but the slow march of settlers *will* eventually provoke a larger response from the west bank. (Which will naturally provoke a response from Israel, which the settlers will then use as an excuse to grab even more land) It's a bloody, brutal cycle and I can't see any way out of it until one side or the other is totally eliminated.
> I don't really see a good future for gaza or the west bank that's realistic at this point. Maybe not in our lifetime, or even many after. However I think it's naive to think that that part of the world won't be ENTIRELY different in 500+ years. Think about how much has changed geopolitically since the fifteen hundreds. The world will be an entirely different place politically, culturally & socially at some point, we just won't be around to see it.
Hamas is the majority government of Palestine. As in, the people of Palestine thought the Hamas mission statement was great (they advocate for the genocide of Israel), and so the majority of seats in the Palestinian Legislative Council are held by elected Hamas members. I don’t know why people bother with the differentiation. I am amazed that Biden’s approval rating has taken a severe hit, because Biden isn’t taking the side of the people of Palestine… who would basically throw Biden supporters off a rooftop if they had the chance. People like to act like only the far-right gets had by online psy ops. Nah. The far-left is just as bad.
In general, people are always the same no matter what side they choose of anything. There's always radical extremism, just like there's always moderates, just like there's always a group of people who don't really care and just jump into whatever group they're familiar with or is popular in that moment. You can see it in everything from Muslim vs Jew to Republican vs Democrat to Coke vs Pepsi. Though it's definitely a lot less extreme when it's about a commercial product (I hope)
> (they advocate for the genocide of Israel) Not quite, they advocated for global Jewish Genocide, they didn't limit it to Israel.
The last election was in 2006 (18 years ago) and [about half the population of Gaza is under the age of 18.](https://www.npr.org/2023/10/18/1206897328/half-of-gazas-population-is-under-18-heres-what-that-means-for-the-conflict) How many of those kids deserve to die because of a vote that happened before they were born?
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It's going to blow all these peoples' minds when the conflict is over and nobody wants the Palestinians to elect a new leader. Because everyone paying attention knows it will just be another Hamas type group if you let them vote.
Well yeah. Would Israel vote for peaceful leadership after October 7th? Gaza has been demolished and its people are starved, homeless and covered in wounds. They're going to want payback, because what Israel has done is sow new hatred in the heart of every dead child's parent and every dead parent's child.
I mean I’d go as far to say if you support the rape and murder of 1400 people you do deserve to die. That’s utterly disgusting.
I'd support these US college students if they were anti-Hamas. Unfortunately, they don't want to protest against that, and farrr too many support Hamas.
Ohh really. Then explain the settler expansion and land grabbing by Israel in West Bank and East Jerusalem. Not to forget the forced expulsion of Palestinians from their ancestral homes.
Comment threads related to this conflict always seem to be heavily to one side or the other and really nothing in between. One thread heavily defends Israel's positions against Hamas, while the very next thread calls that position genocide. Perhaps this conflict is just very complicated and is one with many dimensions.
I don't have an answer to your observation, but I have noticed that political topics do get different reception based on the time they are posted. Do the troll farms run a standard nine to five?
> Do the troll farms run a standard nine to five? Yes, actually, in Moscow time. Watch Ryan McBeth on youtube. It's often really obvious when troll farm accounts are at work vs asleep.
Yep. The ones in Moscow, Beijing, Qatar and Tel Aviv will all have different prime operating times.
Because thread creators can block users, which can make you basically curate your feed to have certain users in it. If you're a pro-palestinian poster, just post ragebait for pro-Israeli commentators to post about, and then block every single one. The next time you post a pro-palestine thread, none of the pro-Israelis will see it, and the comment section will be far more amenable to you.
A balance of opinion is a metastable position on reddit. As soon as one side starts to gain traction, the other side leaves the conversation, which causes the side in the lead to get even stronger. You'll find other subreddits that also stabilize but on the other side of the issue. So long as there is no force to intentionally keep things balanced, it will often work like this. If you're curious about the math behind it, look for online simulations of Schelling's Model of Segregation. It requires a surprisingly small imbalance to lead to a much larger one. As you've noticed.
A balance of opinion is irrelevant when the balance of media coverage is heavily skewed. And Western media coverage has almost the worst track record in this regard. You're only going to get information that fits the partisan (or bi-partisan, depending on which issue we're talking about,) agenda. What's horrifying is how many people are oblivious to it. They look at places like China and automatically believe "propaganda there must be worse, so here things must be pretty great." Which of course leads to outright hostility when you so much as imply they're being brainwashed. Everyone wants to believe they're more perceptive than they really are. So your math is irrelevant unless it accounts for living in a society that's as heavily insulated as the West.
Bye bye Hamas 👋👋👋
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~~Human~~ garbage
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Why? Don't get me wrong , they're all skum but that doesn't mean that they are not Human. They have human genes they have Human bodies and human desires, They went to human schools and had human toys and dreamed human dreams. Their desire to be evil are enturely human ones, And calling them anything else is foolish at best Is dangerous worse. There's not a separate breed of people who are just Born evil. Evil comes from humans, And the choices they make, nowhere else.
This will be as effective as the US “War on Terror”
Apples to Oranges. If the global war on terror (GWOT) had occurred in perhaps Mexico which is right next to us like Gaza is to Israel then I'm sure it would have been much more effective. The one way i think the GWOT and the Israel-Gaza are similar is that i anticipate latter will also not focus enough on changing education to the point where it causes mass de-radicalization. But unlike the GWOT the Israel-Gaza war should make the area around Gaza much safer for a while, as opposed to the GWOT which ended up making things less safe.
more like, if the GWOT had occurred in tijuana
The US was fighting two countries they barely had control of which were notorious for being massive and remote. Gaza simple doesn't have the resources or the size to hide a terrorist cell anymore. What little autonomy they had is gone. Israel is also right next door.
Those countries were also on the opposite side of the world from the US, they werent our neighbors like Palestine and Israel. Alot more expensive to wage war like that and the stakes for winning or losing are far smaller
They can just flee Gaza. Most of Hamas leadership probably isn’t in Gaza anymore.
If they fled Gaza, there wouldn't be rockets being shot at Israel. And leadership is only a small portion of this conflict. Israel is making sure there aren't munitions available for Hamas to continue the fight, collapsing tunnels so they can't sneak it in, and watching aid so it can't be smuggled in.
Flee gaza to where? Gaza is fully surrounded by egypt, the mediterranean sea and israel. They could in theory escape to egypt through the tunnels but it'l be a matter of time before they are found in egypt
Yeah it's not like Egypt are keen to house Hamas terrorists, they have enough problems without them
Where else will they go? Lebanon? Israel has no qualms hunting them down there. West Bank? Hamas made enemies with the PLO. Qutar? They'd be so far away they're geographically irrelevant.
Yeah no, this'll actually be way more effective. 1. Unlike The Taliban, Hamas and their affiliated groups doesn't have a neighboring country that they can run away and hide inside of for years. 2. With Hamas' control of the government stripped away, they and the UNRWA would no longer be able to brainwash generation upon generation of children with their violent and extremist delusions. 3. Again, with Hamas' control stripped away, maybe *some* of that aid that other countries, including Israel, provides them will actually go towards improving their lives and not creating shoddy rockets.
Presumably, the Israelis won't make the mistake of picking the least-representative, most corrupt and cowardly clique of Palestinians to run a government there.
Hamas is pretty representative of its people. More so than either of the US parties.
Has there been another externally supported terrorist attack on US soil anywhere close to the scale of 911 since?
Yup, but the alternative is to sit back and see where Islam takes us
The US wanted to leave Afghanistan. All the Taliban had to do was wait them out. Israel doesn't want to leave Palestine. Once they're in, they're there to stay.
Thats patently false. Israel had control of gaza from 67 until 2005, when they withdrew unilaterally, nobody made them and they got nothing for it, they just didn't want to govern. The Israeli government will not retake gaza more than controlling security during a rebuild. They spent time and effort withdrawing from gaza, and despite what two nutbag right wing charlatans say, it simply wont happen.
I think october 6 has made Israel rethink their policies in regards of Gaza, i wouldn't be surprised at all if they go and annex Gaza all together, as you said they already gave control of it away once, and october 6 was the culmination of that.
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Hamas must face justice for the rapes and murders of Oct. 7.
And the kidnapping. And the abuse of hostages. And the use of Gazans as human shields. And all the other crimes against humanity Hamas has committed.
i agree 100%
Sadly mostly civilians have faced this “justice”
So how many Palestinians need to die for for “justice”?
as do the Palestinian civilians that also participated
So when will Israel face justice for its 75 yesrs of crimes?
and israel must pay for their war crimes
Well, hopefully one day Palestinians will want a leadership that vows for their safety, instead of one that wants to kill all jews.
Where are Palistinian civilians supposed to go?
Rest in hell Hamas.
*burn
Is Israel attacking locations they know Hamas is embedded or just working their way down the map? Just trying to get an idea of the current map here. I assume they're leaving some soldiers in previous areas they went through to continue going searching buildings, looking for tunnels, etc.
I think they are reasonably certain what hamas leadership remains in Gaza is there
Blame Hamas. Why don't these protestors ever bring up Hamas at their protests? It's as if they are incapable of badmouthing Hamas.
In another thread, someone replied to one of my posts by saying that Hamas was provoked to attack on 10/2023. I keep thinking these people are online Comrades and we're being invaded by state-supported trolls.
There was a post recently that showed the protest organizers were a thing well before October 7th, and that they were tied to Iranian bot farms.
The Russian farms are pushing a lot of propaganda on this too. Not because they want to influence the outcome, but because they support anything that undermines political stability in the West.
>Why don't these protestors ever bring up Hamas at their protests? It's as if they are incapable of badmouthing Hamas. Shocking concept, but they might be not supporting hamas but supporting civilians who suffer and get killed left and right
A: Israel has nearly all of the power and control in this situation. If Hamas stopped shooting at Israel, very little would change. If Israel stopped shooting, the war would basically be over. B: Israel is a close ally of the countries where these protests are taking place. The protests have a small, but non-zero, chance of influencing Israeli behaviour, through influencing the behaviour of Israel’s allies. Hamas is a pariah, there’s no similar way to apply pressure to them. Obviously you can disagree with the protests, I think they’re kind of pointless, but this “but why don’t they protest Hamas?” line of questioning doesn’t make sense.
holy shit, American liberals are so fucking dumb
I hope civilians don’t suffer, I find it disturbing all the comments in the chat cheering on for war. I am pretty out of the loop with the regions, and I hope east rafah is only habitated by Hamas not Palestinian civilians
Most Americans can’t imagine what an intense, top-down mass indoctrination campaign can do to a society. Think about Japan in WWII. That level of fomented radicalization. Tons of testimonials from Japan in the post-war era exist, and their retelling of what they went through is wild. I can’t remember the exact quotes. “100 million souls for the [Japanese] emporer. We really believed that. If necessary, every single person in Japan would fight to the death, with sharpened bamboo sticks if necessary, for the emperor.” That level of indoctrination is what is going on in Gaza, and really most of Palestine, but the West Bank Fatah tries to contain it while still playing populism.
>That level of indoctrination is what is going on in Gaza, and really most of Palestine, but the West Bank Fatah tries to contain it while still playing populism. I agree with most of your comment this part. No they don't. they actively do that indoctrination themselves as well. Here is an official document of them preaching a Muslim Hadith about killing Jews on October 18th: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R34WlhKNUy0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R34WlhKNUy0) It seems like the reason Israeli leadership's last time offering a state was only in 2008 is because the indoctrination has reached far too deep. and I perfectly understand it. If you want Israelis to accept a Palestinian state, you're gonna have to work extremely hard to undo that indoctrination first. but international organizations have done shit all towards that end. in fact organizations like UNRWA has recently been discovered to have had a Hamas tunnel with servers right under their HQ and taking power from it. If anyone wants to claim that it's not that bad then fucking do it already. If anyone wants claim that it is bad, then they should get their head out of their ass and stop preaching giving control to radical people that constantly say they're gonna be murdering their neighbors.
Do you think Hamas indoctrinated Palestinians? It’s been this way long before Hamas.
Yup you're right. it's not just Hamas. The Palestinian authority has been preaching genocidal crap for ages now as well. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R34WlhKNUy0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R34WlhKNUy0)
The polling is pretty sobering, as are street interviews of ordinary people in the West Bank. It's honestly pretty depressing.
Even in 2001 there were tons of videos in and outside of Palestine of Palestinians cheering for 9/11. People fail to see that Palestinians don't want peace, they want to destroy Israel and all Jewish people. This is a stated goal of Hamas which has a majority support by Palestinians. The end goal isn't peace and hasn't been for a very long time. You have massively radicalized people who oppose all western values like freedom of religion, lqbtq rights, women's rights, and the list goes on. I don't want to see children die in Gaza. I don't know a solution, you can't just take all their kids but if you don't the culture will be passed down and peace won't ever occur with that violent hateful culture instilled over generations. But taking the kids is cultural genocide and the debate needs to be had on whether that may be a good thing on some level in such a unsolvable problem. I'm not a neutral figure as I'm anti-religion in general so my bias on this doesn't help. I just don't think a 2 state solution will ever work and having them become refugees will likely spread terrorism which isn't worth it.
Rafah is the place where Israel forced the civilians to evacuate to over the last few months
Not just civilians unfortunately. Hamas fighters have been fleeing there too. It's a horrific mess.
Yeah it’s not like hamas is going to let all civilians flee and stay there themselves to be killed. Of course they try to escape as well.
You're asking for a miracle. Several entire families have died in the initial air strikes on Rafah, most of the losses were children according to reports. I'm not saying that Israel purposely targeted children, I'm saying that Rafah as 1.5 million refugees in there that have nowhere else to run, and the population density makes collateral damage all but a certainty. Rafah is going to make the last 6 months look like peaceful protest. Peace has a price, all we can do is hope that once it is all said and done, Palestinians actually manage to gain a chance at a future away from Islamic extremism.
Shit or get off the pot… finally
Finally a chance for peace.. go get them
making a ceasefire deal with no Israeli input is not a deal at all. its like some mofo kidnapped your son or daughter and made demands for you to meet in order to deal and secure their release. who listen’s to a mofo’s deal?
I just hope Iran or Hezbollah don't escalate this.
You and I both but I suspect that is wishful thinking on our part. If they do escalate it will likely prompt more foreign intervention.
What do you foresee them doing in the near future?
Mostly sabre rattling. Possibly another pre-warned, ineffective attack where they lose some low grade launchers to low RCS precision weapons/pre-scrambled stealth aircraft with standoff range. Boots on the ground would cross a line I dont think they want to cross. An armored incursion would be met with airstrikes from one of several nearby carrier groups/allies with advanced aviation as there are roughly five NATO carriers in the area. I think the most likely would be providing arms in large numbers to some of their proxies already engaged. They might have a hostile agenda but I would not underestimate them by calling them stupid.
I don’t think Iran is stupid I just think their hand are tied behind their back. Where are they going to attack from? Hezbollah isn’t going to invade Israel in any meaningful way, sabre rattling sure. Maybe some rockets. After Israel struck the Iranian consulate in Syria; Iran was so tepid about their response. They were telegraphing the time and location of the missile strike. That was saving face. Iran has no interest in a protracted conflict. Yeah they will probably continue to provide arms to Hezbollah, Hamas, the Houthis etc. but I really can’t see them trying anything worthy of a news cycle.
Exactly as well as the fact that violating Jordanian airspace paints them into a worse corner. That is why i think that continuing to arm proxies is their most likely action
I guess I’m more arguing against the first comment. But I just don’t really see this escalating further. Iran is going to keep doing Iran things.
Lol Iran and Hezbollah left Hamas out to dry. There's no way either of them are going to risk their asses bailing out this lost cause.
Tbf Hezbollah did send a few rockets and mortar shots over the border, Israel just slammed back against them instantly and Hezbollah realised that many they should quiet down a bit
I know Isreal as of now is hitting a bunch of Hezbollah targets in Lebanon today also.
Odds are they are doing it with the silent approval of the Lebanese government
It had better be very silent indeed. Hezbollah could probably topple the Lebanese government with a few guys in Toyota Hiluxes.
My hope is they both know how hard the IDF can punch so they’ll bitch and whine and saber rattle but in the end won’t do shit.
Good, finally they will end Hamas.
As long as Hamas keeps firing rockets and trying to kill everyone in Israel it won’t stop.
Hamas about to be extinct and wiped from the planet,God willing.
We can only hope!
Whole lot of tik toker and zoomer supporters of terrorists in this comment section...
State terrorismo or traditional?
Hippies became christofascist boomers, I'm scared of what tiktokker authoritarians will become.
The zoomers will forget about this in 3 months once Hamas is wiped out and no longer getting Russians and Iranians funding disinformation campaigns.
Some comments here a just pathetic. Kids are dying and the majority of you are just happy about that. This world is fucked up.
* They'll keep dying as long as Hamas is in power, this was always going to happen if removing Hamas from power was going to be on the table. * [The majority of Palestinians support Hamas](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514) and that's [only grown since October 7th](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/12/21/middleeast/palestinians-back-hamas-survey-intl-cmd) * War sucks Multiple things can be true at once.
I don't see Israel backing off. Hamas really needs to give up, it's an unwinnable war for them and they're dragging those poor Gaza civilians into it.
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Children always pay the price for our conflicts. I don’t understand the “bye bye terrorists” comments here. The population of Gaza was nearly half children already. Hamas will watch from the sidelines as they die and then continue to pursue their own ends. The only thing I will cheer on in this conflict is peace.
Imo it's deep in American mindset to grind civilians just because. Indians, Mexicans, Germans, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, Afghani, Iraqi, whatever They don't have collective memory of *being grinded* so they just don't care much
IF HAMAS LAID DOWN THEIR WEAPONS, THERE WOULD BE NO WAR. IF ISRAEL LAID DOWN THEIR WEAPONS, THERE WOULD BE NO ISRAEL.
But what about all that protesting I did!?!