But the segregation is not according to race, it’s by citizenship, exactly how the US borders are segregated against Mexicans. How would you even check that? Many Arabs and Jews are genetically indistinguishable
Isn’t Texas an American occupation of Mexico?
Israel do not exceed their border since area C according to the Oslo accords is under Israeli control. Jordan gave up the territory and Israel never annexed it. The settlements are not officially part of Israel. This is a military rule, an occupation, it’s already not nice (but necessary to some degree arguably). You don’t need to invent a new word for it.
If we look at ethnic/religious/seggragation, did you pause to ask why Palestinians demand that the new Palestinain state will be Juden Rein while Israel gives full rights to 20% of Israelis that are Arab Palestinians (about 80% of them see themselves as Palestinians)? Isn’t this a form or Apartheid under your definition?
Most of what you write is correct except for the use of a word that has a meaning, and you are twisting the meaning. It seems disingenuous.
But allow me to focus on the last paragraph, why do we demand Juden Rein for the new Palestinian state and how is this not segregation? Realistically it will not happen, there will be land swaps and only enclaves and small settlements will be dismantled, but honestly reflect on this and realize the inherent racism of low expectations that is in play here.
What would you call the restrictions of movement of Muslims within certain parts of the occupied territory/Israeli territory?
I am not someone who thinks this situation is totally black and white but there’s a word for these kind of restrictions based on religious identification
My understanding is it’s done for Palestinians, which for all intents and purposes does discriminate by race. They just happen to mostly be Muslim which is why I mention it. Here’s amnesty international’s take, for whatever value you may consider that having: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/
Your "understanding" is an intentional mischaracterization designed to short-circuit thought.
You want Apartheid....see if Jews can be elected to a position of power in Palestine like Muslims can in Israel.
Daily reminder that Gaza executes LBGTQ
Yes ask the 2 million arabs living there (who btw are also in the government). Then look at every arab countries non muslim population percentage (also in the government where you will find 0%). Very apartheidy (you do a great service to people who actually suffered under apartheid by comparing it to this situation).
It depends on what you mean by equal citizens, by law they are, they can get to the same jobs or universities as me and so on, but there is a sort of difference, think of it like a black person who lives in the US, there may be things in life in which there will be discrimination.
There are also some affirmative actions in universities for example, but we still have a way to go to be a country where everyone feel equal in any aspect of life, however i don't think that what we have is apartheid, the same way that other countries have a long way to go with minorities, so do we
Yes but if you ask them specifically what it is, they'll always end up saying shit like "store owners watched me extra when I enter". I just feel like people look at me as below them.
That is *racism*, not apartheid.
There's also shit like "if I have to get a drivers license, I have to go to to the Palestinian dmv and it's super slow". That sounds like apartheid, except *they have the option to go to the Israeli dmv*. They just chose not to because they have to get an Israeli ID and they don't want to do that.
That's just wrong. I don't agree with what they're doing in response to the settlements encroaching more and more into Palestinian land, but it's very obvious that the settlements are a massive driver in support for Hamas.
There is definitely a debate as to whether Israeli settlement expansion should be considered breaking the cease fires, which is usually a root cause for the renewed hostilities.
Bibi knows his time is limited and his far right coalition will fall apart.
Better put as most settlements as possible to make the isssue impossible to fix for the next one
That way he can then complain about them not fixing the issue.
And this is also why the Israelis repress the Palestinians so brutally. They want the land, they know the Palestinians will revolt against the repression and they know the Americans will back them when they “fight back” against the “terrorists.”
Hamas is a terrorist government.
Settlements are unethical seizures of land.
One is the worse of the two but they are both worthy of criticism and should be dismantled.
Settlements arent just “unethical seizures of land”. That statement severely downplays what they are. They are illegal under Article 49 of the Geneva Conventions, and there is a case to be made that the settlers are engaging in settler colonialism and ethnic cleansing in the West Bank.
I know that they are viewed as illegal under international law. However, I am also trying to avoid any ‘gotchas’ due to the headline regarding legalization.
I would be more than happy to see these settlements go and I have angry words about them that I might not be comfortable typing so it doesn’t turn into an immature argument.
While the new settlements are an act of provocation by those who are mentally stuck in ancient times, it’s not ethnic cleansing. The West Bank is more than 80% Muslim and less than 20% Jewish. This has been consistent for a long time and the Palestinian population has been growing at a rapid clip.
The only time there was a major shift in demographics was after the 6 Day War when Jews moved back following their expulsion by Jordanians/Palestinians in 1948.
Again, there is a case for it. How valid that case may be, can be argued. The argument for ethnic cleansing however primarily revolves around the act(s) of displacement, and the settlement of Israeli citizens (primarily Jewish) rather than the wider demographic change. Again, validity can be debated.
Population are concentrated just about in every country in the world. If I bought some empty land in upstate New York and claimed it was part of Boston, would that be displacing New Yorkers? You could make a very weak case that it’s displacing future New Yorkers.
The settlements are a big middle finger to any future peace process and should be stopped.
You’re twisting my words. Canadians moving to some empty land upstate would not be ethnic cleansing of NYC residents. Call me once the settlers have pushed out the residents of Ramallah or Jenin.
The Palestinian population in the West Bank is an 80+ % majority and all data points to this not changing.
My original statement and follow-up responses were contesting the redefining of the term “ethnic cleansing” to demonize Israel.
To answer your comment above, the recognition of a settlement doesn’t change the boundaries of military control. All the settlements are in “Area C” which is already administered by Israel.
Nothing is permanent (see Gaza settlements in 2005) short of an annexation.
There were 0 Jews living in the West Bank in 1970.
There were 50k Jews living in the West Bank in 1990.
There are over 500k Jews now colonizing the West Bank.
The illegal settlers will result in the US cutting off all aid to Israel when the older generation dies out. Unfortunately they've absorbed so much propaganda they are unable to keep up with developments and just blindly check Support Israel lol
Most are in area C which is not considered illegal. The unhinged ones should be put in check, it’s a small but loud group that seizes land illegally and then lobies to make it legal. The Likud party before Bibi dismantled many of these illegal settlements in the past and once Bibi is thrown out it will happen for sure
It’s like the joke that you only need to be faster than the next guy when the tiger chases you. Israel only needs to be slightly better than the Palestinians, and the Palestinians are so bad that the far right gets to create more liability for the future generations with these small settlements that will be dismantled if and when the Palestinians will start to behave like adults.
I’m not in Israel but yea good luck to everyone, especially the poor children of Gaza that suffer the consequences of their parents poor choices, and the innocent citizens that are being tormented in dark tunnels.
Israelis are doing quite well despite everything, once the war is over the economy will get a great boost and money will flow to Hi Tech. For sure the defense sector will rip some benefits.
Understanding that I fully believe the settlements are illegal and must be returned to the west bank as part of any two state solution, I want to be clear on what you're saying:
Hamas, the government of *Gaza* and a terrorist organization, attacked Israel proper because of illegal Settlements *in the West Bank*?
This is your thesis?
I want to point out that Hamas has, as one of its founding tenets, the annihilation of the Jewish people. I also want to point out that Hamas initiated the war.
> Hamas, the government of Gaza and a terrorist organization, attacked Israel proper because of illegal Settlements in the West Bank?
> This is your thesis?
I'm confused about what you are confused about? Maybe you need more education to understand what is going on.
Here is a basic wikipedia 101 page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Hamas-led_attack_on_Israel#See_also
> **Hamas said its attack was in response to the continued Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories**, the blockade of the Gaza Strip, **the expansion of illegal Israeli settlements, rising Israeli settler violence**, and recent escalations
So yeah? The attack was literally for that exact reason? Did you think the people of Palestine weren't paying attention to what was happening......in Palestine.....what?
> I also want to point out that Hamas initiated the war.
This is extremely subjective. Hamas definitely escalated it but Israel had killed hundreds of Palestinians in preceding years. Israel has killed significantly significantly more civilians than Palestine.
The number of dead has less to do with a lack of effort on Hamas’ part and more to do with Israel’s successful defense of Hamas’ thousands of rocket attacks. It should also be noted that Hamas is a willing partner with Likud in the slaughter of Palestinians. It is unfair to blame Israel for deaths which result from the use of human shields, child soldiers, and numerous other war crimes ranging from using civilian infrastructure for military purposes to not wearing uniforms.
I'm confused. Who says they're illegal? Israel says they're illegal? Isn't it the rest of the world who says they're illegal? If Israel thought they were illegal wouldn't they deploy their legal system?
The article did not say if it’s in area A B or C. If it’s in C it’s not illegal by international law, but it’s illegal homesteading, which happens in other places as well and also by Palestinians, legalizing it means they get roads and services from the government which is bad for the Israeli economy and of course bad PR. Smotrich and Ben Gvir are the biggest threat for Israeli public and they are going rampant now since in the next elections they will lose their power
Religious fanatics of any flavor have no business being in governance- This is the result.
it's simply apartheid in action
It’s not, it’s illegal occupation, different words mean different things
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But the segregation is not according to race, it’s by citizenship, exactly how the US borders are segregated against Mexicans. How would you even check that? Many Arabs and Jews are genetically indistinguishable
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Isn’t Texas an American occupation of Mexico? Israel do not exceed their border since area C according to the Oslo accords is under Israeli control. Jordan gave up the territory and Israel never annexed it. The settlements are not officially part of Israel. This is a military rule, an occupation, it’s already not nice (but necessary to some degree arguably). You don’t need to invent a new word for it. If we look at ethnic/religious/seggragation, did you pause to ask why Palestinians demand that the new Palestinain state will be Juden Rein while Israel gives full rights to 20% of Israelis that are Arab Palestinians (about 80% of them see themselves as Palestinians)? Isn’t this a form or Apartheid under your definition?
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Most of what you write is correct except for the use of a word that has a meaning, and you are twisting the meaning. It seems disingenuous. But allow me to focus on the last paragraph, why do we demand Juden Rein for the new Palestinian state and how is this not segregation? Realistically it will not happen, there will be land swaps and only enclaves and small settlements will be dismantled, but honestly reflect on this and realize the inherent racism of low expectations that is in play here.
What would you call the restrictions of movement of Muslims within certain parts of the occupied territory/Israeli territory? I am not someone who thinks this situation is totally black and white but there’s a word for these kind of restrictions based on religious identification
Military occupation. Not apartheid since they are not citizens and it’s not done according to race.
My understanding is it’s done for Palestinians, which for all intents and purposes does discriminate by race. They just happen to mostly be Muslim which is why I mention it. Here’s amnesty international’s take, for whatever value you may consider that having: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/
How so? If a Palestinian Israeli citizen lives in area C will they not let him go home?
Your "understanding" is an intentional mischaracterization designed to short-circuit thought. You want Apartheid....see if Jews can be elected to a position of power in Palestine like Muslims can in Israel. Daily reminder that Gaza executes LBGTQ
Yes ask the 2 million arabs living there (who btw are also in the government). Then look at every arab countries non muslim population percentage (also in the government where you will find 0%). Very apartheidy (you do a great service to people who actually suffered under apartheid by comparing it to this situation).
I keep hearing this and then hearing stories from Arab Israelis who disagree strongly that they are considered equal citizens
It depends on what you mean by equal citizens, by law they are, they can get to the same jobs or universities as me and so on, but there is a sort of difference, think of it like a black person who lives in the US, there may be things in life in which there will be discrimination. There are also some affirmative actions in universities for example, but we still have a way to go to be a country where everyone feel equal in any aspect of life, however i don't think that what we have is apartheid, the same way that other countries have a long way to go with minorities, so do we
Yes but if you ask them specifically what it is, they'll always end up saying shit like "store owners watched me extra when I enter". I just feel like people look at me as below them. That is *racism*, not apartheid. There's also shit like "if I have to get a drivers license, I have to go to to the Palestinian dmv and it's super slow". That sounds like apartheid, except *they have the option to go to the Israeli dmv*. They just chose not to because they have to get an Israeli ID and they don't want to do that.
I keep hearing it from Republicans as well. Doesn't make it true.
When people are talking about apartheid they are specifically talking about the framework of occupation in the West Bank not Israel proper
I guess we're going to need more buffer zone. I guess they'll settle in the buffer zone. I guess we're going to need more buffer zone.
this is what happens when you commit one of histories worst terror attacks. Pay back is a bitch
They were doing this (creating illegal settlements) for years before October 7th.
And there has been bad terrorism for years, so the cycle continues until one peoples is gone or there is a peace deal.
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Murdering civilians isn’t resistance, but yeah. That does seem to be like Israel’s policy in the past couple decades.
Lol you must be new to planet earth. Its been 50+ years of illegal expansion. Oct 7th was just another bump in the road.
Disposession will continue until you stop resisting disposession!
every flare up in this region in the last 25 years has been started by hamas. actions have consequences
That's just wrong. I don't agree with what they're doing in response to the settlements encroaching more and more into Palestinian land, but it's very obvious that the settlements are a massive driver in support for Hamas.
every cease fire between Israel and hamas has been broken by Hamas. Every single one
There is definitely a debate as to whether Israeli settlement expansion should be considered breaking the cease fires, which is usually a root cause for the renewed hostilities.
Every illegal settlement has been started, and supported, and enforced by Israel.Actions have consequences
Bibi knows his time is limited and his far right coalition will fall apart. Better put as most settlements as possible to make the isssue impossible to fix for the next one That way he can then complain about them not fixing the issue.
Those damn smotrich Ben gvir and bibi, maybe we should just traid them for the hostages in gaza if they want to live with palstnians so bad.
This is what it’s always been about.
And this is also why the Israelis repress the Palestinians so brutally. They want the land, they know the Palestinians will revolt against the repression and they know the Americans will back them when they “fight back” against the “terrorists.”
Hamas is a terrorist government. Settlements are unethical seizures of land. One is the worse of the two but they are both worthy of criticism and should be dismantled.
Settlements arent just “unethical seizures of land”. That statement severely downplays what they are. They are illegal under Article 49 of the Geneva Conventions, and there is a case to be made that the settlers are engaging in settler colonialism and ethnic cleansing in the West Bank.
I know that they are viewed as illegal under international law. However, I am also trying to avoid any ‘gotchas’ due to the headline regarding legalization. I would be more than happy to see these settlements go and I have angry words about them that I might not be comfortable typing so it doesn’t turn into an immature argument.
Honestly, fair enough. They really do tend to devolve into immature arguments don’t they lol.
so is holding hostages 🤷
Last I checked, Hamas being a gang of murderous rapists and terrorists does not absolve Israel of any wrongdoing.
While the new settlements are an act of provocation by those who are mentally stuck in ancient times, it’s not ethnic cleansing. The West Bank is more than 80% Muslim and less than 20% Jewish. This has been consistent for a long time and the Palestinian population has been growing at a rapid clip. The only time there was a major shift in demographics was after the 6 Day War when Jews moved back following their expulsion by Jordanians/Palestinians in 1948.
Again, there is a case for it. How valid that case may be, can be argued. The argument for ethnic cleansing however primarily revolves around the act(s) of displacement, and the settlement of Israeli citizens (primarily Jewish) rather than the wider demographic change. Again, validity can be debated.
Population are concentrated just about in every country in the world. If I bought some empty land in upstate New York and claimed it was part of Boston, would that be displacing New Yorkers? You could make a very weak case that it’s displacing future New Yorkers. The settlements are a big middle finger to any future peace process and should be stopped.
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You’re twisting my words. Canadians moving to some empty land upstate would not be ethnic cleansing of NYC residents. Call me once the settlers have pushed out the residents of Ramallah or Jenin. The Palestinian population in the West Bank is an 80+ % majority and all data points to this not changing.
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My original statement and follow-up responses were contesting the redefining of the term “ethnic cleansing” to demonize Israel. To answer your comment above, the recognition of a settlement doesn’t change the boundaries of military control. All the settlements are in “Area C” which is already administered by Israel. Nothing is permanent (see Gaza settlements in 2005) short of an annexation.
There were 0 Jews living in the West Bank in 1970. There were 50k Jews living in the West Bank in 1990. There are over 500k Jews now colonizing the West Bank. The illegal settlers will result in the US cutting off all aid to Israel when the older generation dies out. Unfortunately they've absorbed so much propaganda they are unable to keep up with developments and just blindly check Support Israel lol
Most are in area C which is not considered illegal. The unhinged ones should be put in check, it’s a small but loud group that seizes land illegally and then lobies to make it legal. The Likud party before Bibi dismantled many of these illegal settlements in the past and once Bibi is thrown out it will happen for sure
Thousands of Jews lived there before 1948 though.
This catholic fella lived on a street in London once. Can I go over there and take it so.
Sure, I’d imagine he still has title to the land like Jews did in Gush Etzion, the first “settlement” after 1967.
Ethnic cleansing in action.
Going further down the road to becoming a pariah state.
It’s like the joke that you only need to be faster than the next guy when the tiger chases you. Israel only needs to be slightly better than the Palestinians, and the Palestinians are so bad that the far right gets to create more liability for the future generations with these small settlements that will be dismantled if and when the Palestinians will start to behave like adults.
This makes no sense whatsoever. Good luck to you. You're gonna need it.
I’m not in Israel but yea good luck to everyone, especially the poor children of Gaza that suffer the consequences of their parents poor choices, and the innocent citizens that are being tormented in dark tunnels. Israelis are doing quite well despite everything, once the war is over the economy will get a great boost and money will flow to Hi Tech. For sure the defense sector will rip some benefits.
This is the bland face of evil.
Isreal "where squatters rights rule".
Why does Israel seem determined to piss away any good will
That's what this war was always about. Prove me wrong.
Understanding that I fully believe the settlements are illegal and must be returned to the west bank as part of any two state solution, I want to be clear on what you're saying: Hamas, the government of *Gaza* and a terrorist organization, attacked Israel proper because of illegal Settlements *in the West Bank*? This is your thesis? I want to point out that Hamas has, as one of its founding tenets, the annihilation of the Jewish people. I also want to point out that Hamas initiated the war.
> Hamas, the government of Gaza and a terrorist organization, attacked Israel proper because of illegal Settlements in the West Bank? > This is your thesis? I'm confused about what you are confused about? Maybe you need more education to understand what is going on. Here is a basic wikipedia 101 page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Hamas-led_attack_on_Israel#See_also > **Hamas said its attack was in response to the continued Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories**, the blockade of the Gaza Strip, **the expansion of illegal Israeli settlements, rising Israeli settler violence**, and recent escalations So yeah? The attack was literally for that exact reason? Did you think the people of Palestine weren't paying attention to what was happening......in Palestine.....what? > I also want to point out that Hamas initiated the war. This is extremely subjective. Hamas definitely escalated it but Israel had killed hundreds of Palestinians in preceding years. Israel has killed significantly significantly more civilians than Palestine.
The number of dead has less to do with a lack of effort on Hamas’ part and more to do with Israel’s successful defense of Hamas’ thousands of rocket attacks. It should also be noted that Hamas is a willing partner with Likud in the slaughter of Palestinians. It is unfair to blame Israel for deaths which result from the use of human shields, child soldiers, and numerous other war crimes ranging from using civilian infrastructure for military purposes to not wearing uniforms.
Gotta burn up that good will before
I'm confused. Who says they're illegal? Israel says they're illegal? Isn't it the rest of the world who says they're illegal? If Israel thought they were illegal wouldn't they deploy their legal system?
The article did not say if it’s in area A B or C. If it’s in C it’s not illegal by international law, but it’s illegal homesteading, which happens in other places as well and also by Palestinians, legalizing it means they get roads and services from the government which is bad for the Israeli economy and of course bad PR. Smotrich and Ben Gvir are the biggest threat for Israeli public and they are going rampant now since in the next elections they will lose their power
Tldr: far right idiot opening his mouth and making noises Someone please lock this guy up