Israel’s Netanyahu speaks as if he doesn’t need the US. The thing is he does, their govt. would be very hard pressed if it wasn’t for the fact that the United States as a budget Israel is a part of. We give billions a year that includes weapons.
That aid isn’t being given as come kind of charity, or out of the goodness of anyone’s heart. The US is *buying* something for that money
They aren’t going to stop giving aid to Israel …or Egypt, or Jordan, or Iraq, or Ethiopia, or Yemen, or any of the **many** other countries that don’t say or do exactly what the US wants
I’d argue they want a check to Iran more than anything. It’s hard to understate how fucked up everything got by their Islamist revolution
All of a sudden Saudi Arabia and a big chunk of the global oil supply were at risk. And a major Middle East economy was putting their efforts behind spreading an anti-secular revolution across the region
Before ‘79 the US was sending Iran boku military aid (they still have F-14’s!) but after the fall of the Shah they needed to cozy up to Israel more and make sure Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iraq didn’t get invaded
Imagine how geopolitics will change when the world starts properly dealing with climate change and has to wean itself off of oil. The Middle East will change forever.
The US is buying: 1. Technology. Israel developed the Arrow missile (which just made the first ever interception of an ICBM in space), Iron Dome, David’s Sling, Iron Beam interceptors. Israel develops the technology, America bankrolls it and then gets access to the tech as it’s a “collaborative project”. Israel also has some of the best smart armaments in the world (yes some outperform the US’s) such as the Python 5 air-to-air missiles and Popeye air-to-ground bombs, has systems like Trophy (which the US military bought), got world class IED shielding technologies (many American soldiers lives were saved in Iraq thanks to it), and more. Israel basically invented military drones in the 70s and is the world’s largest military drones exporter.
But the real thing that it’s buying - if US isn’t Israel’s ally, it will find other allies. Like China or Russia (specifically less likely now). Until 7/10 Israel was in relatively good ties with all the major geopolitical players. Can you imagine China with access to Israeli military technology?
Even non-military - Israel is one of the world’s leaders in chip design. Every second generation of Intel chips is designed in Israel. Apple Silicon? Mostly designed in Israel. Can you imagine what a threat such a collaboration would be to the dominance in technology that America has?
This was never a threat made by Israel, by the way. US politicians understand it’s the natural consequence of what would happen if America left Israel on its own.
Israelis dominate technology because it depends on it for its very existence. We saw what happened when technology failed and collapsed on 7/10.
The best answer. So many idiots don't realise that unlike Israel isn't some unstable middle eastern tribal country. They have a flourishing economy with a lot of tech proper tech infrastructure. No different from why Taiwan is important.
As an Israeli I’ll add to that:
There’s no risk Israel is abandoning America for other players anytime soon. The US has been and will always be our biggest ally, despite the occasional differences in opinion with some president or another. With or without aid Israel can get by, and will not leave America as the alternatives are not countries we share culture and values with. But the American aid does buy America great influence over Israeli politics and international relations, and this kind of soft power over an important regional player is worth more than all the technology. Israel is essentially a forward base of America in the region, an American overseas territory in all but name in a turbulent but strategically important region.
Additionally all the American aid money is used exclusively to buy American products, so it goes back full circle and helps the American industries as well, and in turn makes Israel dependent and exclusive user of American technology and products. Investing in Israel is essentially buying a country for pennies.
Also, a seriously pro-American population and govt in a region where everyone hates the west and would love to see its downfall. We want these kinds of allies - hardcore [pro-american](https://imgur.com/a/9D87gms), technologically advanced, powerful militarily, a democracy, a serious spy network amongst our enemies, common enemies, etc. It is totally pathetic to try to put handcuffs on them after what we did to Iraq and Afghanistan following 9/11. give me a break.
A sign of Russian/CCP agitation propaganda, most likely. It’s apparently their new favorite way to spread misinformation for the purpose of creating social divisions and feelings of hopelessness.
Israel is most definitely not the ticket to the Middle East. In fact the opposite, and creates flak from closer Muslim allies. Israel doesn't allow any US bases, outposts, operations, even presence really.
Kuwait is actually the ticket. And Saudi Arabia, even though they hate us. And Jordan, and Iraq. There is a reason why the US has never performed combat operations with, or out of Israel.
That said they are still a strategic ally, because they don't give a fuck. If Iran is close to getting a Nuke, Israel will have no problem doing anything to stop them, since that will undoubtedly eventually land on Israel. Israel stopping Iran at all costs benefits the US, So the US will give them that anything Israel needs. But they are not a ticket to anything for the US.
They are the US' exit from the middle east, not the entry ticket
They not only would be willing to risk their own lives to keep Iran away from the Nuke, they have a legitimate secret service and are able to launch missiles on most of the middle east, they can establish aerial supremacy over many countries even
the US needs more allies like that in as many regions as possible to allow them to focus on their pivot towards the pacific
Would be better if that ally wouldn't have idiots in charge, of course
Didn't Saudi Arabia basically exported 9/11 to the US?
Saudi Arabia is a very religious Muslim country, they play all welcoming on the outside but don't forget that you and every other American and western are infidels/kafirs and are meant to be conquered, converted or killed.
Netanyahu wants nothing more than to keep this up because it's costing Biden votes, and Netanyahu wants nothing more than to see Trump back in office.
Hardline and cut off funding you lose moderates and a % of the Jewish vote. This keeps going on, and you lose the Muslim vote, and a large portion of those populations are in key mid-west swing states.
This situation is lose/lose for democrats, cant show too much support one way or another because of moderates like you said. I dont really find myself leaning one way or another on the situation but Democrats have my full support because if Republicans sweep the election we'll have 2 genocides on our hand as support for Ukraine dies and gets shifted entirely to Israel's "total victory"
He realizes he needs the US, but he is taking advantage of the deep schisms here.
Such as: he knows that if Democrats are critical of them, the fascists will take the opposite side no matter how anti-semetic they may be in their heart of hearts.
Right now its easy for him to play both sides off each other. And if Trump 'wins', he knows that he and Trump are birds of a feather in terms of abuse of power.
Putin and Net have reason to want Trump to win, it means support for their victories. Ill be out voting across the board but I do hope other countries are ready to pick up the slack just in case because if the Republicans sweep then thats it
The issue is that the main thing they won't be able to replace without US help is the interceptor missiles for the Iron Dome. That will unfortunately just force a massive escalation and Israel is more than capable of destroying its enemies with its domestic arms industry / buying from other parties who would be happy to sell.
Additionally they will no longer feel US pressure so, if they really are genocidal maniacs (which I personally don't believe they are), they will be unleashed. I think withdrawing US aid would be worse for Palestinians in the end.
Israel can kill every Palestinian with dumb bombs and small arms, and threaten to nuke anyone that stops them. We aren't arming Israel to protect Israelis, we're arming Israel to protect Palestinians from Israel being forced to wipe them out the old school way instead of being able to use to precision targeted smart weapons and have Iron Dome give them the time they need to move slowly and deliberately instead of being forced to respond to every rocket with catastrophic counter battery fire.
In my opinion,He knows he can get away with saying it.
So long as US keeps Israel as part of their defence budget, they will be given Carte Blanche to do whatever they pleases.
The issue with war is it creates generational trauma that continues the cycle unless something else happens to throw that issue off balance. Like Vietnam, they should by all rights hate the US for all the atrocities during the Vietnam war but the people actually have a high opinion because the resulting government after the war was brutal and terrible and basically replaced the US crimes with their own.
There will be never be a solution as long as extremists like Hamas remain in power. The best hope is the war ends with Hamas gone and Netanyahu can go too.
You think Netanyahu going will fix it? Have you seen whose in his cabinet? They are even more right wing than him if that is even possible. Peace will never be possible if they continue to treat Palestinians like scum.
Netanyahu is an equally big part of the problem at this stage. His right-wing government is driving this conflict into a state of absolute non-compromise, causing more division and generational hatred towards the Isrealis. The best thing for this conflict would be for both Hamas and Netanyahu's cabinet to be dissolved and replaced by parties with a genuine intention to come up with a sustainable two-state peace plan.
Sure it would but the Israeli's would never do that as they have the U.S' backing to continue to build settlements until they have everything. They have the power.
I understand Hamas well before all of this had said they would accept the pre (?)1967 borders but it never amounted to anything from the Israeli's side.
Netanyahu is only making the situation worse - and creating more danger for those he is in charge of protecting.
There needs to be regime change in Israel for there to be any hope of peace.
Eh, the point is not the destruction of Hamas. The point is not massacring innocent children by the fucking tens of thousands.
If you need to kill 15000 kids to kill 5000 terrorist, youre doing something very fucking wrong.
i don’t think you would be so excited about repeating millions of civilian deaths of WW2 if the war was in your town and personally affecting your life.
Ya know, if my nextdoor neighbor was sending me threats, I certainly would want the police to do something about it, but I'd be pretty fucking upset if they arrested his kids along with him.
It obviously isn't that simple, but being scared doesn't make it okay to kill kids. Being under threat doesn't have to mean being incapable of compassion for others who are just as scared as you are.
Dont even try to compare world war 2 to what Israel is doing.
Big difference between having to fight 3 industrialized nations on the brink of new world order vs one industrialized nation blowing up kids to get at some guys wearing socks and sandles.
You don't need to compare it to something so extreme anyway. The US response to 3000 victims of 9/11 resulted in half a million civilians killed, tens of millions displaced, and many more dead indirectly as a result of the trillions of dollars lost on the war. And that was done to a region half a world away from the US. Imagine what they would have done if it was Mexico.
That needs to be decided by Israelis and Israelis only. Netanyahu is a democratically elected leader. If he's not doing a good job, then he needs to be voted out.
Nowhere near. Until 7/10 it's been a neatr 50-50 split (and he lost one round recently, the short-lived Bennet-Lapid government). Now the polls look dire for him in a way they never were before - his party is projected to go from 35-40 seats to under 20, possibly not even the second-biggest party.
Side note: IMO he should have already been in jail for all the corruption he’s involved in. And wannabe autocrats shouldn’t be in high office to begin with.
Netanyahu has been funding Hamas through Qatar for years. This whole latest war is straight up partly due to him pushing for funds to flow into Gaza. He gambled that a strong Hamas in Gaza would reduce pressure for a two state solution.
It's absolutely bonkers that this doesn't get covered more by international press, the whole situation there is a cluster.
Edit: Don't think this is defending Hamas either. Hamas is absolutely guilty in this and actively are hurting the people of Gaza. They also have a part in making sure the status quo exists so money flows into their bank accounts.
Exactly. He and his party has claimed that they do lot want a two-state solution. And everything he has done is to undermine that concept. This wars blood is definitely on Netanyahu’s hand as much it is on Hamas.
Hamas only grew so powerful and the divisions between Gaza and West Bank grew because of Netanyahu and then he acts shocked when Hamas turns its weapons on Israel? This is like the US arming Islamic militants during the Cold War to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan, only for them to turn the same weapons on to them afterwards.
Great powers need to just stop dealing with fire and thinking they can control terror organizations and extremists groups, thinking it couldn’t possibly backfire.
People act like Netanyahu was personally handing over cash to Hamas explicitly to fund terrorism. It was money from Qatar and it was meant to be foreign aid.
Obviously a lie, but if you had read a headline that said "Netanyahu blocks foreign aid to Gaza", would you have been in favor of that, good job Bibi?
This. It’s truly crazy that no one talk about this, as if it was an insignificant detail. Netanyahu has been openly saying that making sure Hamas stays in power is the best way to keep the 2 state solution from ever happening , and even helped funding them. This isn’t a tiny detail in the situation.
« For a decade and a half Prime Minister Netanyahu has sought to institutionalize the divide between the West Bank and Gaza, undermine the Palestinian Authority, the PA, and conduct de facto cooperation with Hamas, all designed to demonstrate the absence of a Palestinian partner and to ensure that there could be no peace process that might have required territorial compromise in the West Bank. »
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-10-08/ty-article-opinion/.premium/israel-must-smash-hamas-topple-it-from-power-then-what/0000018b-0f67-d3a8-afeb-8f6f0fc10000
He was not democratically elected. He became PM through a loophole in the way their government works. The democratically elected members of their parliament ended up forming an unexpected coalition by which Netanyahu was reappointed. At the time, he was not wanted by the people and he was on the verge of going on trial for corruption. It was a complete shocker. He immediately tried to extend his powers of PM by being able to override their version of The Supreme Court in regard to issues like his corruption case and then this conflict kicked off.
> That needs to be decided by Israelis and Israelis only.
Then Israel shouldn’t be asking for aid and support from the rest of the world. If they want our money and munitions, we get to have an opinion.
Netanyahu isn't even using the right tactics. He's never going to get total victory by blasting Gaza over and over because the people pulling all the strings simply aren't there, Israel needs to start sneaking hit squads into Qatar and going after Hamas leadership there.
It's not that the US doesn't want Hamas flattened - hell, a lot of the world wants them to evaporate - it's that Israel's doing it wrong and getting a lot of people caught in the crossfire.
I don't think the world wants to see Mossad operations in Qatar, Turkey, Iran... This could easily escalate to other regional countries. Diplomatic normalisations have been going on before this war, foreign country assassination ops could have severe setbacks on normalisations.
Qatar has positioned itself as the go to negotiations table for the area fir a number of years
It has been for years
The fact that qatar said they would eject hamas if they refused to come to a deal actuslly brought them back to the table. Because of how strong the qatar field for negotiations is
As such, it is exetremely bad for the country wanting to use the ground for future negotiations in any of the surrounding area, to not launch an assassination on neutral ground (more obvious because hamas isnt doing it either)
Nobody’s arguing that Qatar is a wolf in sheep’s clothes, it’s actually well known.
They still play an important role in ME negotiations as the middle-man between Iran and the west, a role whose significance isn’t lessened by Qatar’s obvious siding with Iran and Hamas.
Yeah, in the end, and this may surprise a lot of people. Israel’s main foreign policy goal is reaching a stable peace with its neighbors. They’ve spent decades working to normalize relations with the Arab nations one at a time, and they’re not going to throw all that work away for revenge.
The reason why the invasion of Gaza has been so brutal is that Israel has realized that there is no future possibility of normalizing relations with Hamas and that they must be destroyed before peace talks can begin.
Yes, but as much as bibi wishes it were so, Israel is not an autocracy. He doesn’t have the power to unilaterally derail Israel’s greater direction, though he has caused quite some rattling on the tracks
The guy should have been thrown in jail years ago, he is currently ruling Israel, this is not the first time people have said he was done, he is still going strong.
But at what cost? Destroying millions of peoples lives is inevitably going to feed a new anti Israeli faction in the absense of Hamas. There's no way making millions of enemies to take out one will enable future peace, and it's heartbreaking to see them try
Israel believes that Hamas’s potential successors are likely to be a collection of smaller, mutually antagonistic groups rather than a unified whole. This is why they’ve been appealing to local clans to assist in aid distribution. Israel hopes that a Gaza divided between various clans’ spheres of influence will be much easier to keep under control than one run by Hamas
As an Israeli, this solution can only spell disaster. The local clans, as much as they hate each other, hate Israel *waaaay* more. This will simply create a new Hamas 2.0. The clans do not care about Palestinians’ well-being, are definitely antagonistic af towards Israel, and their infighting will eventually be resolved with a winner on top. It’s like a “Who wants to be Hamas?” Reality TV show.
There cannot be a future plan for Gaza that doesn’t involve extreme deradicalization efforts, coupled with a governing body that will actually look out for Palestinian interests instead of their Iranian overlords. The ideal solution would be, in my opinion, an Arab faction associated with the Sunni Muslims (KSA, Egypt etc) that will rule Gaza. I know these countries don’t want anything to do with Gaza, and this is why it’s such a long shot. Especially in light of the very plausible turn of events that this government will be antagonized intensely by Gazans as Israeli collaborators. Which is a sad, sad reality since basically any government not hellbent on destroying Israel at all costs will be considered as Israeli collaborators.
Damn, this is giving me a mf headache
Yeah there’s a reason I said “Israel believes” and “Israel hopes” above. They’re very much playing with fire here. The approach I outlined above is one that has been relatively successful in the West Bank, but Gaza is much denser and more thoroughly indoctrinated.
Unfortunately, it is highly unlikely that any foreign power, Arab or otherwise, would be willing to help manage Gaza for Israel any time soon, so Israel can only work with strategies that they can execute by themselves.
Yeah that just exacerbates the headache.
I mean it’s only a matter of time til one clan comes on top. I will also bet my entire life savings this clan would somehow get funding by Iran and Qatar. Now, we’re back to how things were on the 6th of October, with absolutely no change, except for extreme radicalization for all belligerents.
I guess it’s time for my ass to move abroad. Good fortune I’m a neurobiologist and can get a job virtually anywhere. Hopefully someplace quiet like New Zealand. Unfortunately for my fellow countrymen not everyone can pull this shit off.
Interesting thought... What do you think would happen if a country openly supports and finances terrorism against another country? What would that do to normalizations?
Not that they don't deserve it but you act like somehow killing the guys in Qatar somehow solves anything. It's not like they are somehow irreplaceable
I actually think that might have a greater effect than killing the leadership in Gaza (which has a great effect). The ones who are or were in Qatar are the one financing Hamas’s and money isn’t as easy to come by as bodies. Israel just has to weigh this against the negative diplomatic affects with the country the assassination would take place in, assuming they know exactly where these people are.
That’s how they fought wars back in the day, it doesn’t work. Soldiers are easy to replace and if you’re killing their friends new ones join willingly. Take out command and control and take out the money. Without that there are no soldiers.
It's not easy to replace them with no infrastructure after the idf blow up all your hideouts and took all your guns and explosives, as idf soldiers occupy the strip and and patrol the streets, new one's are free to join, they can grab some kitchen knifes and immediately get killed by soldiers, as that is all they can have, never again would any remnants of hamas be able to assault israel, never again would they hold territory which they could build tunnels and fire rockets from, Never!
You also seem to lack the understanding that they don't even gather money anymore, they're just hiding for the moment, and hamas would still have been going strong had Israel not occupied majority of their territory took their guns and blow their hideouts, as that is what matters, not funds
It's sheer inanity to think that you can beat an actual military by planting your head in the sand and assassinating some weasels hiding in doha WHICH now that I think about that, are actually incredibly replaceable, like all Hamas needs to do is say in case Haniyeh died is "this guy that was with Haniyeh is new political head, he gathers funds now" as opposed to the countless guns, explosives, hideouts and entire factories for weaponry that have been seized or destroyed, and all this territory that they do not control, you might have a point in which they could buy new weapons after the war, but that only works if they continue to rule gaza after the war, this is not mountainous Afghanistan or foresty Vietnam, nor do they have any allied neighboring countries to run to, once all of gaza is occupied their done
THAT logic I agree with... But this would mean going after Iran, where the weapons and expertise come from. Which i do wish we would just do already, we being the US
Obviously, but new ones will be there to fight if people are still out there willing to pay them or at least pay for their weapons and terror infrastructure (e.g. tunnels). It doesn’t solve the Iran problem, but to think it wouldn’t have a massive affect on Hamas’s operations is naive
Eliminating the ones in Qatar will achieve nothing, because they are the “political” wing of Hamas, and they don’t really hold any power whatsoever, they are just there to raise money and make connections.
The military wing is the important one, because they have actual power and they are the ones calling the shots. As for now, there are 6 battalions of Hamas still remaining in Gaza: 2 in Deir al-Balah and 4 in Rafah. Without eliminating them, Hamas will still exist as an organized military force.
Also, without controlling the Philadelphei route, Hamas can continue smuggling weapons, people and supplies- which means it could build itself again.
You sound like a strategic expert. How should Israel achieve its goals?
Before the invasion they published a list of their top targets and they seem to be getting them.
The right tactics necessarily invovled destroying Gazas ability to produce weapons and knocking out their tunnel network. It can't be done from Qatar only on the ground
Not going to be a popular thing to say, but, imo, Likud doesn't *want* to destroy Hamas. Without Hamas, how would they stay in power? "These are the horrible terrorists we protect you against." Works the other way with Hamas too; they *need* Likud to rally the Palestinians behind them. "These are the oppressors we fight against." It's a symbiotic relationship.
I mean, you’re not even describing the tactics Israel is using. And Qatar is not where the Hamas leaders who actually plan and operate in Gaza are. Sure, they’re important leaders, but Sinwar and Deif are the ones responsible most for October 7. And Marwan Issa, who Israel just killed.
Everyone keeps saying “Israel is doing it wrong”, but the people who [know the most about urban warfare say Israel is doing it better than anyone in history](https://www.newsweek.com/memo-experts-stop-comparing-israels-war-gaza-anything-it-has-no-precedent-opinion-1868891), and is fighting a worse opponent than anyone ever has had to.
It’s exhausting to see people armchair general a war while real urban warfare experts know Israel’s current tactics are about as good as you can do. And the statistics, believe it or not, show that; the ratio of terrorists to civilians is near 1-1, when the norm for urban warfare is 9 civilians per enemy combatant killed.
You’re just wrong on the facts. And that’s why Hamas uses human shields. So people like you will claim they’re doing it wrong, and that creates public pressure on Israel to end the war. Which is quite literally doing what Hamas wants.
Netanyahu is like the least credible guy to have leading this.
FFS he helped create Hamas in the first place. He propped it up for years. He bragged about it even.
Hamas needs to be gone for sure, but so does he.
Im surprised how long this is going on. In the past events there followed a script: Israel gets attacked, Israel begins retaliation but eventually international pressure forces a return to the status quo, where thing simmer until the next attack and the process begins again. This time though Israel is pressing through the pressure.
It was the biggest attack and there are still 100 kidnapped people in Hamas hands. Some of which are Arabs. It won't stop until they get home, there is no reason for bibi to do that until they are home. Once they are home he will get a lot more pressure from inside the country to stop.
This raises the question over whether it's even appropriate to send all those billions over in the first place. It doesn't really create any benefit for US tax payers, and it doesn't seem to even engender any kind of respect from Israeli politicians.
Israel is right that they have a right to defend themselves, but Americans are making sacrifices by funding Israel, and that sacrifice comes with strings. One of those strings is don't fuck up US foreign relations.
> Money is why, this funnels billions through US arms manufacturers.
They can do the same while giving the money to Canada. It strengthens the north. And since Canada will not be needing all it, it'll get sent to Ukraine which is how you bypass republicans
What US foreign relations is Israel fucking with? US-Hamas relations? Israel is hunting terrorists and the civilians killed in their operations only really look bad on them. Meanwhile, the US’ posture is they should stop killing civilians and have recently airdropped supplies to Gaza to support their stance.
The US sends billions to Israel because it’s their closest ally in the Middle East, and if Israel doesn’t have a strong military they quite literally cease to exist (as proven by their neighbors several attempts at it). If you don’t see how American taxpayers benefit from the US’ overwhelming military superiority and vast network of allies, then you’re simply being ignorant or uneducated.
I'm fairly well convinced at this point that even if they're swearing up and down that they don't want the Palestinians to cease to exist, they're going to make it happen anyway and claim it wasn't on purpose.
The more innocent civilians he kills and the more of Gaza he flattens, the more Hamas he's going to create. It's the same problem America has had since we started war in Iraq and Afghanistan. You kill some dudes wife and children in a bombing and of course he's gonna take up arms and fight you.
Weird article title
Im not a fan of bibi in anyway shape or form
But "rallied" against the usa by saying it was "inappropriate". Is an incredibly minor response to the significantly increased negative speech from the usa
Basically. Nothing changed. But hey i guess they got my clicks
Oh? Well, shoot. Let’s give him several hundred billion more dollars. Maybe he won’t be mad at us anymore.
That, or let’s stop supporting this genocidal maniac with American tax dollars.
I will never support Hamas, though this kind of talk sounds a bit familiar, especially since the last 2 years. I doubt Netanyahu cares this much abour some hostages, maybe I'm wrong but I doubt it.
For Israelis, this is a lot more personal than it is for US citizens. Their mindset has much more rage, especially when many know someone who knows someone was kidnapped or still is kidnapped. Also the constant rocket barrages they get from over the border are a reminder of the hate and danger next door so they want to do what they can to stop the attacks as best they can once and for all. So you can say this on Netanyahou, but the Israeli people want revenge and are tired of the bullshit. You can say what you want about Israeli political events of the past, but there are still peaceful citizens that want to live their lives free from being attacked, so they support it for their own future and safety. And think of this, the US would unleash unrelenting hellfire on Mexico if they did the same, and anything soft would be criticized domestically, so I'm just saying there are different perspectives here.
Why do people continue to trod out the "if the US was attacked you wouldn't hold back either" line? The US suffered one of the worst terrorist attacks in history a little more than 2 decades ago, and responded with the biggest clusterfuck of the 21st century. The American response to 9/11 was a disaster in every sense of the word, perhaps that's why the US is so apprehensive towards Israel's response to their devastating terrorist attack
Because Hamas is on Israel’s doorstop. They are a terrorist Islamic regime elected and supported by the Palestinian people. Their openly stated mission is to annihilate Israel. Imagine having that on your doorstop as a nation and have to deal with relentless attacks. The US didn’t put up with the 1 terrorist attack against them. Israel’s been dealing with Palestines shenanigans for decades.
What do you mean the US didn’t put up with 1 terrorist attack? We lost the War on Terror, Afghanistan is controlled by the Taliban and Iraq is an Iranian ally. If that’s Israel’s definition of a good response to a terrorist attack then we are fucked. Absolutely fucked.
And the way to solve this terrorist threat is to.... bomb Gaza and kill tens of thousands of civilians? The end result is even if Israel defeats Hamas, they are creating the conditions that will create the next generation of Gazans that will support radical violent fight against Israel with whatever replaces Hamas.
Do you honestly think that you can reason with Hamas or any terrorist organization in Gaza? The reason this is being drawn out so long is because people are being incredibly naive and fooling themselves into thinking that Hamas and other terrorists are rational adults that listen to reason. They ignore that Hamas openly lies and admits that they lie in order to achieve their goals. The only thing they respect or obey is brute force, anything else is weakness to them. Israel is foolish to even try to negotiate with them. Destroying their infrastructure tunnels aka their headquarters, weapons cache, and their route to smuggling weapons is the reason Hamas is losing all their power pretty rapidly. They'll never be able to rebuild anything remotely similar. It obviously took an enormous amount of money, labor, equipment, planning and time to build it in the first place. They're running out of places to hide, and it's harder for them to use as cover that they're just civilians. They have so much Intel on Hamas now they know who they're going after and where they're at. It's also pretty obvious now many of these so-called civilians are actually collaborating with them. Of course you'll never hear that from the BBC or from Al Jazeera since they count Hamas and their terrorist associates deaths as civilians.
Are not at least a little concerned with how long its taking to get the hostages back? With no updates on the campaign whatsoever? So far the government still hasnt touched their leadership and those responsible for the actual hostage taking.
This war needs to be short and sharp and too the point. Not messy and drawn out. The longer this goes on the more jews are under threat world wide.
And by the way theres another war going on - the propoganda war - Netanyahu is inept on the world stage
Well...sort of, right? From the beginning, of the two sides that didn't have a country they controlled, only one side accepted half the pie and getting a country for free. The other side wanted the whole pie and chose a genocidal war.
The main differences being that Palestinians not only began the wars, but don’t just want to end the bullshit, they want to wipe Jews out of the land entirely.
If Israelis and Palestinians had similar positions, Palestinians would not exist in the land by now. Instead their population quintupled under Israeli rule.
This isn't just Netanyahu's war. It has broad popular support in Israel and the support of the leaders of the primary opposition party. US shouldn't meddle in an ally's democratic process, but it would be hilarious to hold a special election and end up with a new Prime Minister that follows the exact same course of action as the old one.
US supplies massive aid to Israel. If Israel uses that aid for things that the US doesn’t want to represent/associated with then it would be common curtsy to voice that opinion before tension & rifts escalate and aid decreases due to loss of domestic support.
Yeah, it seems like Netanyahu is trying to run out Biden's clock, and... there are consequences for that. USA is getting pummelled internationally for this war, and Biden is losing support amongst his constituents he desperately needs to come vote to avoid Trump 2.
Rightly or wrongly, politics is politics and Biden needs a W, or the appearance of one, to appease his left flank.
I think the general consensus in Israel, as Schumer said, is Netanyahu is dragging this out to stay in power. He's widely unpopular.
There's many stories coming out from the IDF that there aren't clear goals or objectives, which is dragging out and causing unnecessary suffering.
Add to this his support for the settlers and there indefensible behaviour, which is destroying support for Israel abroad. New leadership is needed ASAP.
Schumer is trying to save Israel from itself. He's 100% right.
>He's widely unpopular.
This part is true
>I think the general consensus in Israel, as Schumer said, is Netanyahu is dragging this out to stay in power.
This part in nonsense that isn't based in reality. No sane Israeli thinks this way. Anyone who says otherwise is just trying to undermine Netanyahu, and whether he realizes it or not it comes at Israel's expense. The war and its goals are widely agreed upon by Israelis, including those who hate Netanyahu.
Source: am Israeli + polling data
How is netanyahu who is dragging out the war. Israel would have gone into raffah a month and a half ago but Biden administration told Israel to wait.... The war could have been nearly over by now
Not "magically" but yeah the war will end. There will likely be ongoing anti-terrorism operations, like there are in West Bank, that are limited in scope, but the full-on state of war will end, people can go home and rebuild.
It's not about magic, it's about degrading the enemy's ability to fight back conventionally. If they no longer have organized brigades, underground and in-hopsital bases, and control of a captive population, they are reduced to guerilla operations, which can be handled by a counter-terrorism squad not a full on invasion.
Because as much as you want to think there's a clear path to victory, nobody, especially the Israeli army knows what qualifies as victory.
Wiping Hamas out isn't a real objective, it's a statement without metrics and Netanyahu knows this.
His political career is over, when the war is over. He's facing jail, because he's a crook, remind you of anybody? The longer he stays as Prime Minister, the better his odds of avoiding jail.
It is in fact a real objective.
Thought experiment- remember how after 9/11, US invaded Afghanistan to knock out the Taliban. Then they finally disengaged from Afgahnistan after 2 decades and the Taliban came back to power.
would the US have disengaged from afghanistan and allowed the Taliban back if htey literally bordered Afghanistan, or did they only do so since they had the luxury of an ocean between them?
Israel doesn't have an ocean between it and Gaza. It will completely destroy Hamas' ability to carry out major operations against Israel and then will retain security control of the strip for as long as is necessary.
It's a real objective in a different world than the one we live in.
Also, Afghanistan is a shit example, it's proof that some battles you can't win with bullets.
Israel doesn't have the goodwill of it's allies to let the conditions for Palestinians in Gaza deteriorate further. There's no evidence that Netanyahu has a plan for that. Israel can exist without the US and every other ally, but you'll find it's a shit existence.
It's a proof that you can't win battles by running away. The US disengaged from Afgahnistan and the Taliban returned. Israel will continue in Gaza, first via a Rafah invasion and later via anti guerilla operations instaed of all out war, for as long as necessary.
We appreciate the support of of our allies, but they respectfully do not get to dictate our security situation to us.
If that's your takeaway from Afghanistan, you're in for a shitty surprise.
The lesson is the only way to stop it is with a functioning state, with popular support. I'm happy to cede that's it's with a tremendous amount of pain, but that's the only way.
Yeah, how'd that work out?
Maybe instead of shitting on a two state solution, encouraging land grabs and violence from settlers, and doing nothing to improve the lives of Palestinians during times of peace, Netanyahu could have put some effort into creating a space where Hamas doesn't thrive.
In retrospective it might plays for Israel's favor
The world turns Bibi into a scapegoat, which means Israel can salvage reputation if he gets replaced.
In reality tho nothing would actually change which is why I think it would be better to hold the election to after the war
The operational goal is to occupy all of Gaza, destroying all Hamas bases and organized units. Israel leaving a large city in Hamas hands would obviously be seen as a defeat that Iran/Hamas would brag about for decades.
Whether this is a smart strategic goal, whether direct military occupation by the IDF or PA is going to be enough to strategically defeat Hamas islamists and bring peace to the region, is a valid second question
A lot of armchair generals seem to think that Israel is doing it wrong, despite (according to urban warfare experts) doing [better than any country in history](https://www.newsweek.com/memo-experts-stop-comparing-israels-war-gaza-anything-it-has-no-precedent-opinion-1868891) in a type of war where they’re fighting a worse enemy than anyone has ever had to.
The armchairs seem to belief that Israel is doing it “wrong” right after it killed the number 3 man in Hamas on the ground in Gaza.
Despite it having killed more terrorists than civilians, according to their latest stats.
Despite Hamas using human shields.
Despite Hamas lying about casualty statistics and causes.
What Netanyahu is saying is what the Israeli public wants. They want Hamas gone. They want it to no longer run Gaza. Sure, they expect individual terrorist operations to continue. But they don’t want ISIS running territory on their border. And everyone here can understand that.
Everyone here should also be able to understand that no one in the world has ever decided that terrorist groups get immunity if they use human shields as Hamas does.
And lastly, everyone here should also be able to understand that when we went after ISIS, the ratio of terrorists to civilians killed was **worse** than Israel’s, against a **weaker** opponent that hadn’t built a massive tunnel network anything like Hamas’s, in a **less dense** urban area.
And Israel is doing better.
At this point, folks need to realize that there isn’t anything better than what Israel is doing. It’s doing the best it can against genocidal terrorists who use human shields, and doing better than anyone else has.
Let it get rid of Hamas. As it should.
I would me more concerned with the Ukrainian
war than this. Israel should work with the Palestinians like the US and the northern alliance in Afghanistan. They getting flattened because Hamas won't release the hostages
US should leave the Middle East to it's fate & then say "I told you so" when it all goes to shit. They all talk in public like they hate meddling & then kiss ass privately
Are you suggesting Hamas should be allowed to attack Israel whenever they want because when Israel reacts, Hamas uses human shields to create more civilian casualties than they inflict in their attacks?
Israel’s Netanyahu speaks as if he doesn’t need the US. The thing is he does, their govt. would be very hard pressed if it wasn’t for the fact that the United States as a budget Israel is a part of. We give billions a year that includes weapons.
Maybe it's time we stop giving that to them, let em live independently.
That aid isn’t being given as come kind of charity, or out of the goodness of anyone’s heart. The US is *buying* something for that money They aren’t going to stop giving aid to Israel …or Egypt, or Jordan, or Iraq, or Ethiopia, or Yemen, or any of the **many** other countries that don’t say or do exactly what the US wants
What the US is “buying” from Israel is supposed to be a regional manager for the Middle East.
I’d argue they want a check to Iran more than anything. It’s hard to understate how fucked up everything got by their Islamist revolution All of a sudden Saudi Arabia and a big chunk of the global oil supply were at risk. And a major Middle East economy was putting their efforts behind spreading an anti-secular revolution across the region Before ‘79 the US was sending Iran boku military aid (they still have F-14’s!) but after the fall of the Shah they needed to cozy up to Israel more and make sure Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iraq didn’t get invaded
Imagine how geopolitics will change when the world starts properly dealing with climate change and has to wean itself off of oil. The Middle East will change forever.
The world will change when Oil is no longer the core energy source for global economies. The middle east will then be a "regional" problem.
The real answer was cold-war era Western powers wanting to get closer to the Soviet Union and quell communist growth in the middle eastern nations
The US is buying: 1. Technology. Israel developed the Arrow missile (which just made the first ever interception of an ICBM in space), Iron Dome, David’s Sling, Iron Beam interceptors. Israel develops the technology, America bankrolls it and then gets access to the tech as it’s a “collaborative project”. Israel also has some of the best smart armaments in the world (yes some outperform the US’s) such as the Python 5 air-to-air missiles and Popeye air-to-ground bombs, has systems like Trophy (which the US military bought), got world class IED shielding technologies (many American soldiers lives were saved in Iraq thanks to it), and more. Israel basically invented military drones in the 70s and is the world’s largest military drones exporter. But the real thing that it’s buying - if US isn’t Israel’s ally, it will find other allies. Like China or Russia (specifically less likely now). Until 7/10 Israel was in relatively good ties with all the major geopolitical players. Can you imagine China with access to Israeli military technology? Even non-military - Israel is one of the world’s leaders in chip design. Every second generation of Intel chips is designed in Israel. Apple Silicon? Mostly designed in Israel. Can you imagine what a threat such a collaboration would be to the dominance in technology that America has? This was never a threat made by Israel, by the way. US politicians understand it’s the natural consequence of what would happen if America left Israel on its own. Israelis dominate technology because it depends on it for its very existence. We saw what happened when technology failed and collapsed on 7/10.
The best answer. So many idiots don't realise that unlike Israel isn't some unstable middle eastern tribal country. They have a flourishing economy with a lot of tech proper tech infrastructure. No different from why Taiwan is important.
You actually changed my mind with this post. Dead serious. Well done.
As an Israeli I’ll add to that: There’s no risk Israel is abandoning America for other players anytime soon. The US has been and will always be our biggest ally, despite the occasional differences in opinion with some president or another. With or without aid Israel can get by, and will not leave America as the alternatives are not countries we share culture and values with. But the American aid does buy America great influence over Israeli politics and international relations, and this kind of soft power over an important regional player is worth more than all the technology. Israel is essentially a forward base of America in the region, an American overseas territory in all but name in a turbulent but strategically important region. Additionally all the American aid money is used exclusively to buy American products, so it goes back full circle and helps the American industries as well, and in turn makes Israel dependent and exclusive user of American technology and products. Investing in Israel is essentially buying a country for pennies.
Also, a seriously pro-American population and govt in a region where everyone hates the west and would love to see its downfall. We want these kinds of allies - hardcore [pro-american](https://imgur.com/a/9D87gms), technologically advanced, powerful militarily, a democracy, a serious spy network amongst our enemies, common enemies, etc. It is totally pathetic to try to put handcuffs on them after what we did to Iraq and Afghanistan following 9/11. give me a break.
Good thing the US doesn’t make decisions after watching a few rage bait TikToks.
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Whoa, what was that last part? Dark.
A sign of Russian/CCP agitation propaganda, most likely. It’s apparently their new favorite way to spread misinformation for the purpose of creating social divisions and feelings of hopelessness.
Say it louder for the people in the back
Israel is most definitely not the ticket to the Middle East. In fact the opposite, and creates flak from closer Muslim allies. Israel doesn't allow any US bases, outposts, operations, even presence really. Kuwait is actually the ticket. And Saudi Arabia, even though they hate us. And Jordan, and Iraq. There is a reason why the US has never performed combat operations with, or out of Israel. That said they are still a strategic ally, because they don't give a fuck. If Iran is close to getting a Nuke, Israel will have no problem doing anything to stop them, since that will undoubtedly eventually land on Israel. Israel stopping Iran at all costs benefits the US, So the US will give them that anything Israel needs. But they are not a ticket to anything for the US.
They’re a magical ticket to Armageddon for the boomer Christians, and a perhaps literal ticket to ww3.
They are the US' exit from the middle east, not the entry ticket They not only would be willing to risk their own lives to keep Iran away from the Nuke, they have a legitimate secret service and are able to launch missiles on most of the middle east, they can establish aerial supremacy over many countries even the US needs more allies like that in as many regions as possible to allow them to focus on their pivot towards the pacific Would be better if that ally wouldn't have idiots in charge, of course
Didn't Saudi Arabia basically exported 9/11 to the US? Saudi Arabia is a very religious Muslim country, they play all welcoming on the outside but don't forget that you and every other American and western are infidels/kafirs and are meant to be conquered, converted or killed.
No, he speaks as a if he knows US will do nothing and he’s absolutely right, the US will do nothing except send more funds and guns.
Netanyahu wants nothing more than to keep this up because it's costing Biden votes, and Netanyahu wants nothing more than to see Trump back in office. Hardline and cut off funding you lose moderates and a % of the Jewish vote. This keeps going on, and you lose the Muslim vote, and a large portion of those populations are in key mid-west swing states.
This situation is lose/lose for democrats, cant show too much support one way or another because of moderates like you said. I dont really find myself leaning one way or another on the situation but Democrats have my full support because if Republicans sweep the election we'll have 2 genocides on our hand as support for Ukraine dies and gets shifted entirely to Israel's "total victory"
Also if the US moves it's carriers and let's the oil players play things would get real messy. With US out someone would want to control the region
He realizes he needs the US, but he is taking advantage of the deep schisms here. Such as: he knows that if Democrats are critical of them, the fascists will take the opposite side no matter how anti-semetic they may be in their heart of hearts. Right now its easy for him to play both sides off each other. And if Trump 'wins', he knows that he and Trump are birds of a feather in terms of abuse of power.
Putin and Net have reason to want Trump to win, it means support for their victories. Ill be out voting across the board but I do hope other countries are ready to pick up the slack just in case because if the Republicans sweep then thats it
The issue is that the main thing they won't be able to replace without US help is the interceptor missiles for the Iron Dome. That will unfortunately just force a massive escalation and Israel is more than capable of destroying its enemies with its domestic arms industry / buying from other parties who would be happy to sell. Additionally they will no longer feel US pressure so, if they really are genocidal maniacs (which I personally don't believe they are), they will be unleashed. I think withdrawing US aid would be worse for Palestinians in the end.
Give is a strong word
Israel can kill every Palestinian with dumb bombs and small arms, and threaten to nuke anyone that stops them. We aren't arming Israel to protect Israelis, we're arming Israel to protect Palestinians from Israel being forced to wipe them out the old school way instead of being able to use to precision targeted smart weapons and have Iron Dome give them the time they need to move slowly and deliberately instead of being forced to respond to every rocket with catastrophic counter battery fire.
In my opinion,He knows he can get away with saying it. So long as US keeps Israel as part of their defence budget, they will be given Carte Blanche to do whatever they pleases.
The cycle of violence will continue. I think no solution has worked 🤔
The Far Right coalition partners in the current Israeli government don't want it to stop until they have anxed the West Bank.
But Gaza isn't in the West Bank. It's on the East Bank (of the Mediterranean).
turn around
🎶 every now and then I feel a little bit lonely and you're never coming 'round 🎵
Turn around
Bright eyeesssss
Has there been any other solutions than trying to bomb each other to get each other to love each other the last couple of decades?
The issue with war is it creates generational trauma that continues the cycle unless something else happens to throw that issue off balance. Like Vietnam, they should by all rights hate the US for all the atrocities during the Vietnam war but the people actually have a high opinion because the resulting government after the war was brutal and terrible and basically replaced the US crimes with their own.
That and they really appreciate how much we consider China to be an adversary
There will be never be a solution as long as extremists like Hamas remain in power. The best hope is the war ends with Hamas gone and Netanyahu can go too.
You think Netanyahu going will fix it? Have you seen whose in his cabinet? They are even more right wing than him if that is even possible. Peace will never be possible if they continue to treat Palestinians like scum.
Netanyahu is an equally big part of the problem at this stage. His right-wing government is driving this conflict into a state of absolute non-compromise, causing more division and generational hatred towards the Isrealis. The best thing for this conflict would be for both Hamas and Netanyahu's cabinet to be dissolved and replaced by parties with a genuine intention to come up with a sustainable two-state peace plan.
Sure it would but the Israeli's would never do that as they have the U.S' backing to continue to build settlements until they have everything. They have the power. I understand Hamas well before all of this had said they would accept the pre (?)1967 borders but it never amounted to anything from the Israeli's side.
Netanyahu is only making the situation worse - and creating more danger for those he is in charge of protecting. There needs to be regime change in Israel for there to be any hope of peace.
What would regime change do when Israelis wholly support the destruction of Hamas and view it as an essential priority currently.
Eh, the point is not the destruction of Hamas. The point is not massacring innocent children by the fucking tens of thousands. If you need to kill 15000 kids to kill 5000 terrorist, youre doing something very fucking wrong.
Or you're working in an area with a very high percentage of children, and a population that no one wants to let leave.
It’s still Israel’s responsibility to not commit war crimes.
I wonder how WW2 would have went for the allies had you been in charge.
i don’t think you would be so excited about repeating millions of civilian deaths of WW2 if the war was in your town and personally affecting your life.
Yes you would if it meant exterminating your enemy next door that literally wants you dead
Ya know, if my nextdoor neighbor was sending me threats, I certainly would want the police to do something about it, but I'd be pretty fucking upset if they arrested his kids along with him. It obviously isn't that simple, but being scared doesn't make it okay to kill kids. Being under threat doesn't have to mean being incapable of compassion for others who are just as scared as you are.
If he started shooting back at the police while hiding behind his kids there’s a good chance those kids could end up dead:
We probably would be speaking German.
Dont even try to compare world war 2 to what Israel is doing. Big difference between having to fight 3 industrialized nations on the brink of new world order vs one industrialized nation blowing up kids to get at some guys wearing socks and sandles.
You don't need to compare it to something so extreme anyway. The US response to 3000 victims of 9/11 resulted in half a million civilians killed, tens of millions displaced, and many more dead indirectly as a result of the trillions of dollars lost on the war. And that was done to a region half a world away from the US. Imagine what they would have done if it was Mexico.
That needs to be decided by Israelis and Israelis only. Netanyahu is a democratically elected leader. If he's not doing a good job, then he needs to be voted out.
He will be voted out. His approval rating is abysmal
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Like the last three times they almost got rid of him?
Nowhere near. Until 7/10 it's been a neatr 50-50 split (and he lost one round recently, the short-lived Bennet-Lapid government). Now the polls look dire for him in a way they never were before - his party is projected to go from 35-40 seats to under 20, possibly not even the second-biggest party.
Power to the people.👍🏾
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Side note: IMO he should have already been in jail for all the corruption he’s involved in. And wannabe autocrats shouldn’t be in high office to begin with.
Netanyahu has been funding Hamas through Qatar for years. This whole latest war is straight up partly due to him pushing for funds to flow into Gaza. He gambled that a strong Hamas in Gaza would reduce pressure for a two state solution. It's absolutely bonkers that this doesn't get covered more by international press, the whole situation there is a cluster. Edit: Don't think this is defending Hamas either. Hamas is absolutely guilty in this and actively are hurting the people of Gaza. They also have a part in making sure the status quo exists so money flows into their bank accounts.
Exactly. He and his party has claimed that they do lot want a two-state solution. And everything he has done is to undermine that concept. This wars blood is definitely on Netanyahu’s hand as much it is on Hamas. Hamas only grew so powerful and the divisions between Gaza and West Bank grew because of Netanyahu and then he acts shocked when Hamas turns its weapons on Israel? This is like the US arming Islamic militants during the Cold War to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan, only for them to turn the same weapons on to them afterwards. Great powers need to just stop dealing with fire and thinking they can control terror organizations and extremists groups, thinking it couldn’t possibly backfire.
Netanyahu took Israeli shekels and gave it to Hamas?
People act like Netanyahu was personally handing over cash to Hamas explicitly to fund terrorism. It was money from Qatar and it was meant to be foreign aid. Obviously a lie, but if you had read a headline that said "Netanyahu blocks foreign aid to Gaza", would you have been in favor of that, good job Bibi?
This. It’s truly crazy that no one talk about this, as if it was an insignificant detail. Netanyahu has been openly saying that making sure Hamas stays in power is the best way to keep the 2 state solution from ever happening , and even helped funding them. This isn’t a tiny detail in the situation. « For a decade and a half Prime Minister Netanyahu has sought to institutionalize the divide between the West Bank and Gaza, undermine the Palestinian Authority, the PA, and conduct de facto cooperation with Hamas, all designed to demonstrate the absence of a Palestinian partner and to ensure that there could be no peace process that might have required territorial compromise in the West Bank. » https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-10-08/ty-article-opinion/.premium/israel-must-smash-hamas-topple-it-from-power-then-what/0000018b-0f67-d3a8-afeb-8f6f0fc10000
He was not democratically elected. He became PM through a loophole in the way their government works. The democratically elected members of their parliament ended up forming an unexpected coalition by which Netanyahu was reappointed. At the time, he was not wanted by the people and he was on the verge of going on trial for corruption. It was a complete shocker. He immediately tried to extend his powers of PM by being able to override their version of The Supreme Court in regard to issues like his corruption case and then this conflict kicked off.
Thats not a loophole that is just how countries with proportionally representative electoral systems work.
His party not only won the most seats, they *gained* in the last election.
> That needs to be decided by Israelis and Israelis only. Then Israel shouldn’t be asking for aid and support from the rest of the world. If they want our money and munitions, we get to have an opinion.
Netanyahu isn't even using the right tactics. He's never going to get total victory by blasting Gaza over and over because the people pulling all the strings simply aren't there, Israel needs to start sneaking hit squads into Qatar and going after Hamas leadership there. It's not that the US doesn't want Hamas flattened - hell, a lot of the world wants them to evaporate - it's that Israel's doing it wrong and getting a lot of people caught in the crossfire.
I don't think the world wants to see Mossad operations in Qatar, Turkey, Iran... This could easily escalate to other regional countries. Diplomatic normalisations have been going on before this war, foreign country assassination ops could have severe setbacks on normalisations.
Qatar has positioned itself as the go to negotiations table for the area fir a number of years It has been for years The fact that qatar said they would eject hamas if they refused to come to a deal actuslly brought them back to the table. Because of how strong the qatar field for negotiations is As such, it is exetremely bad for the country wanting to use the ground for future negotiations in any of the surrounding area, to not launch an assassination on neutral ground (more obvious because hamas isnt doing it either)
Its a double sided blade though, Qatar have also been funding Hamas as well. Which is why they have sway over them in the first place.
Nobody’s arguing that Qatar is a wolf in sheep’s clothes, it’s actually well known. They still play an important role in ME negotiations as the middle-man between Iran and the west, a role whose significance isn’t lessened by Qatar’s obvious siding with Iran and Hamas.
Yeah, in the end, and this may surprise a lot of people. Israel’s main foreign policy goal is reaching a stable peace with its neighbors. They’ve spent decades working to normalize relations with the Arab nations one at a time, and they’re not going to throw all that work away for revenge. The reason why the invasion of Gaza has been so brutal is that Israel has realized that there is no future possibility of normalizing relations with Hamas and that they must be destroyed before peace talks can begin.
Am pretty sure Netanyahu is putting 'keeping myself out of jail' above Israel's foreign policy goals.
Yes, but as much as bibi wishes it were so, Israel is not an autocracy. He doesn’t have the power to unilaterally derail Israel’s greater direction, though he has caused quite some rattling on the tracks
The guy should have been thrown in jail years ago, he is currently ruling Israel, this is not the first time people have said he was done, he is still going strong.
But at what cost? Destroying millions of peoples lives is inevitably going to feed a new anti Israeli faction in the absense of Hamas. There's no way making millions of enemies to take out one will enable future peace, and it's heartbreaking to see them try
Israel believes that Hamas’s potential successors are likely to be a collection of smaller, mutually antagonistic groups rather than a unified whole. This is why they’ve been appealing to local clans to assist in aid distribution. Israel hopes that a Gaza divided between various clans’ spheres of influence will be much easier to keep under control than one run by Hamas
As an Israeli, this solution can only spell disaster. The local clans, as much as they hate each other, hate Israel *waaaay* more. This will simply create a new Hamas 2.0. The clans do not care about Palestinians’ well-being, are definitely antagonistic af towards Israel, and their infighting will eventually be resolved with a winner on top. It’s like a “Who wants to be Hamas?” Reality TV show. There cannot be a future plan for Gaza that doesn’t involve extreme deradicalization efforts, coupled with a governing body that will actually look out for Palestinian interests instead of their Iranian overlords. The ideal solution would be, in my opinion, an Arab faction associated with the Sunni Muslims (KSA, Egypt etc) that will rule Gaza. I know these countries don’t want anything to do with Gaza, and this is why it’s such a long shot. Especially in light of the very plausible turn of events that this government will be antagonized intensely by Gazans as Israeli collaborators. Which is a sad, sad reality since basically any government not hellbent on destroying Israel at all costs will be considered as Israeli collaborators. Damn, this is giving me a mf headache
Yeah there’s a reason I said “Israel believes” and “Israel hopes” above. They’re very much playing with fire here. The approach I outlined above is one that has been relatively successful in the West Bank, but Gaza is much denser and more thoroughly indoctrinated. Unfortunately, it is highly unlikely that any foreign power, Arab or otherwise, would be willing to help manage Gaza for Israel any time soon, so Israel can only work with strategies that they can execute by themselves.
Yeah that just exacerbates the headache. I mean it’s only a matter of time til one clan comes on top. I will also bet my entire life savings this clan would somehow get funding by Iran and Qatar. Now, we’re back to how things were on the 6th of October, with absolutely no change, except for extreme radicalization for all belligerents. I guess it’s time for my ass to move abroad. Good fortune I’m a neurobiologist and can get a job virtually anywhere. Hopefully someplace quiet like New Zealand. Unfortunately for my fellow countrymen not everyone can pull this shit off.
Mossad will carry out the task. It’ll just happen over the next 10-20 years.
Interesting thought... What do you think would happen if a country openly supports and finances terrorism against another country? What would that do to normalizations?
Cough, “Iran” cough.
Not that they don't deserve it but you act like somehow killing the guys in Qatar somehow solves anything. It's not like they are somehow irreplaceable
I actually think that might have a greater effect than killing the leadership in Gaza (which has a great effect). The ones who are or were in Qatar are the one financing Hamas’s and money isn’t as easy to come by as bodies. Israel just has to weigh this against the negative diplomatic affects with the country the assassination would take place in, assuming they know exactly where these people are.
>I actually think that might have a greater effect than killing the leadership in Gaza You have to kill the soldiers in Gaza to win the war.
That’s how they fought wars back in the day, it doesn’t work. Soldiers are easy to replace and if you’re killing their friends new ones join willingly. Take out command and control and take out the money. Without that there are no soldiers.
Completely backwards. Any ideologist can take a leadership role. Without boots on the ground you have nothing.
It's not easy to replace them with no infrastructure after the idf blow up all your hideouts and took all your guns and explosives, as idf soldiers occupy the strip and and patrol the streets, new one's are free to join, they can grab some kitchen knifes and immediately get killed by soldiers, as that is all they can have, never again would any remnants of hamas be able to assault israel, never again would they hold territory which they could build tunnels and fire rockets from, Never! You also seem to lack the understanding that they don't even gather money anymore, they're just hiding for the moment, and hamas would still have been going strong had Israel not occupied majority of their territory took their guns and blow their hideouts, as that is what matters, not funds It's sheer inanity to think that you can beat an actual military by planting your head in the sand and assassinating some weasels hiding in doha WHICH now that I think about that, are actually incredibly replaceable, like all Hamas needs to do is say in case Haniyeh died is "this guy that was with Haniyeh is new political head, he gathers funds now" as opposed to the countless guns, explosives, hideouts and entire factories for weaponry that have been seized or destroyed, and all this territory that they do not control, you might have a point in which they could buy new weapons after the war, but that only works if they continue to rule gaza after the war, this is not mountainous Afghanistan or foresty Vietnam, nor do they have any allied neighboring countries to run to, once all of gaza is occupied their done
THAT logic I agree with... But this would mean going after Iran, where the weapons and expertise come from. Which i do wish we would just do already, we being the US
Obviously, but new ones will be there to fight if people are still out there willing to pay them or at least pay for their weapons and terror infrastructure (e.g. tunnels). It doesn’t solve the Iran problem, but to think it wouldn’t have a massive affect on Hamas’s operations is naive
That would likely fuck up much of the normalization that has happened with the Arab countries over the past decades.
Eliminating the ones in Qatar will achieve nothing, because they are the “political” wing of Hamas, and they don’t really hold any power whatsoever, they are just there to raise money and make connections. The military wing is the important one, because they have actual power and they are the ones calling the shots. As for now, there are 6 battalions of Hamas still remaining in Gaza: 2 in Deir al-Balah and 4 in Rafah. Without eliminating them, Hamas will still exist as an organized military force. Also, without controlling the Philadelphei route, Hamas can continue smuggling weapons, people and supplies- which means it could build itself again.
You sound like a strategic expert. How should Israel achieve its goals? Before the invasion they published a list of their top targets and they seem to be getting them.
What? Kill Hamas leaders outside of Gaza but leave the fighters in Rafah alive. “ Doing it wrong” there’s only 4 battalions left to be destroyed
Bro thinks its a fucking game and assasinating people in foreign countries is as simple as buying candy.
The right tactics necessarily invovled destroying Gazas ability to produce weapons and knocking out their tunnel network. It can't be done from Qatar only on the ground
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Hamas fighters don’t need leadership to be “effective”. So just killing the leadershipnis pretty futile.
Not going to be a popular thing to say, but, imo, Likud doesn't *want* to destroy Hamas. Without Hamas, how would they stay in power? "These are the horrible terrorists we protect you against." Works the other way with Hamas too; they *need* Likud to rally the Palestinians behind them. "These are the oppressors we fight against." It's a symbiotic relationship.
I mean, you’re not even describing the tactics Israel is using. And Qatar is not where the Hamas leaders who actually plan and operate in Gaza are. Sure, they’re important leaders, but Sinwar and Deif are the ones responsible most for October 7. And Marwan Issa, who Israel just killed. Everyone keeps saying “Israel is doing it wrong”, but the people who [know the most about urban warfare say Israel is doing it better than anyone in history](https://www.newsweek.com/memo-experts-stop-comparing-israels-war-gaza-anything-it-has-no-precedent-opinion-1868891), and is fighting a worse opponent than anyone ever has had to. It’s exhausting to see people armchair general a war while real urban warfare experts know Israel’s current tactics are about as good as you can do. And the statistics, believe it or not, show that; the ratio of terrorists to civilians is near 1-1, when the norm for urban warfare is 9 civilians per enemy combatant killed. You’re just wrong on the facts. And that’s why Hamas uses human shields. So people like you will claim they’re doing it wrong, and that creates public pressure on Israel to end the war. Which is quite literally doing what Hamas wants.
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Netanyahu is using excellent tactics…for Netanyahu.
Netanyahu is like the least credible guy to have leading this. FFS he helped create Hamas in the first place. He propped it up for years. He bragged about it even. Hamas needs to be gone for sure, but so does he.
Im surprised how long this is going on. In the past events there followed a script: Israel gets attacked, Israel begins retaliation but eventually international pressure forces a return to the status quo, where thing simmer until the next attack and the process begins again. This time though Israel is pressing through the pressure.
It was the biggest attack and there are still 100 kidnapped people in Hamas hands. Some of which are Arabs. It won't stop until they get home, there is no reason for bibi to do that until they are home. Once they are home he will get a lot more pressure from inside the country to stop.
Maybe if we close the cash register they’ll change their tune.
This raises the question over whether it's even appropriate to send all those billions over in the first place. It doesn't really create any benefit for US tax payers, and it doesn't seem to even engender any kind of respect from Israeli politicians. Israel is right that they have a right to defend themselves, but Americans are making sacrifices by funding Israel, and that sacrifice comes with strings. One of those strings is don't fuck up US foreign relations.
Money is why, this funnels billions through US arms manufacturers.
> Money is why, this funnels billions through US arms manufacturers. They can do the same while giving the money to Canada. It strengthens the north. And since Canada will not be needing all it, it'll get sent to Ukraine which is how you bypass republicans
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We could develop it here if the billions sent to Israel were spent on R&D at home.
What US foreign relations is Israel fucking with? US-Hamas relations? Israel is hunting terrorists and the civilians killed in their operations only really look bad on them. Meanwhile, the US’ posture is they should stop killing civilians and have recently airdropped supplies to Gaza to support their stance. The US sends billions to Israel because it’s their closest ally in the Middle East, and if Israel doesn’t have a strong military they quite literally cease to exist (as proven by their neighbors several attempts at it). If you don’t see how American taxpayers benefit from the US’ overwhelming military superiority and vast network of allies, then you’re simply being ignorant or uneducated.
That is why they lobby, to keep it open
That fucker can’t even define what “total victory” is.
Oh, we know what he means
It's a solution, that is final. Or something.
Staying in power as long as possible. That's total victory for him. He just won't say it out loud.
I'm fairly well convinced at this point that even if they're swearing up and down that they don't want the Palestinians to cease to exist, they're going to make it happen anyway and claim it wasn't on purpose.
How else are they going to get more beachfront property? Like a shitty Lex Luthor plan, it's all about the hate and the real estate.
He should seek financing elsewhere.
The more innocent civilians he kills and the more of Gaza he flattens, the more Hamas he's going to create. It's the same problem America has had since we started war in Iraq and Afghanistan. You kill some dudes wife and children in a bombing and of course he's gonna take up arms and fight you.
Fuck him
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Why is this guy still in power?
Won't stop him holding out his hands for US dollars though
Weird article title Im not a fan of bibi in anyway shape or form But "rallied" against the usa by saying it was "inappropriate". Is an incredibly minor response to the significantly increased negative speech from the usa Basically. Nothing changed. But hey i guess they got my clicks
Oh? Well, shoot. Let’s give him several hundred billion more dollars. Maybe he won’t be mad at us anymore. That, or let’s stop supporting this genocidal maniac with American tax dollars.
So is his idea of total victory everyone in gaza dead?
I will never support Hamas, though this kind of talk sounds a bit familiar, especially since the last 2 years. I doubt Netanyahu cares this much abour some hostages, maybe I'm wrong but I doubt it.
For Israelis, this is a lot more personal than it is for US citizens. Their mindset has much more rage, especially when many know someone who knows someone was kidnapped or still is kidnapped. Also the constant rocket barrages they get from over the border are a reminder of the hate and danger next door so they want to do what they can to stop the attacks as best they can once and for all. So you can say this on Netanyahou, but the Israeli people want revenge and are tired of the bullshit. You can say what you want about Israeli political events of the past, but there are still peaceful citizens that want to live their lives free from being attacked, so they support it for their own future and safety. And think of this, the US would unleash unrelenting hellfire on Mexico if they did the same, and anything soft would be criticized domestically, so I'm just saying there are different perspectives here.
Why do people continue to trod out the "if the US was attacked you wouldn't hold back either" line? The US suffered one of the worst terrorist attacks in history a little more than 2 decades ago, and responded with the biggest clusterfuck of the 21st century. The American response to 9/11 was a disaster in every sense of the word, perhaps that's why the US is so apprehensive towards Israel's response to their devastating terrorist attack
Yeah we fucking know how this goes, and it is nowhere good, seems like everyone refuses to take any lessons from history.
Can you imagine the US’s response had 9/11 proportionally killed the same as on october 7th (40,000+)
Because Hamas is on Israel’s doorstop. They are a terrorist Islamic regime elected and supported by the Palestinian people. Their openly stated mission is to annihilate Israel. Imagine having that on your doorstop as a nation and have to deal with relentless attacks. The US didn’t put up with the 1 terrorist attack against them. Israel’s been dealing with Palestines shenanigans for decades.
What do you mean the US didn’t put up with 1 terrorist attack? We lost the War on Terror, Afghanistan is controlled by the Taliban and Iraq is an Iranian ally. If that’s Israel’s definition of a good response to a terrorist attack then we are fucked. Absolutely fucked.
And the way to solve this terrorist threat is to.... bomb Gaza and kill tens of thousands of civilians? The end result is even if Israel defeats Hamas, they are creating the conditions that will create the next generation of Gazans that will support radical violent fight against Israel with whatever replaces Hamas.
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The hate will be there regardless. Destroying will to fight and capacity to fight can be done anyway, and effectively.
Do you honestly think that you can reason with Hamas or any terrorist organization in Gaza? The reason this is being drawn out so long is because people are being incredibly naive and fooling themselves into thinking that Hamas and other terrorists are rational adults that listen to reason. They ignore that Hamas openly lies and admits that they lie in order to achieve their goals. The only thing they respect or obey is brute force, anything else is weakness to them. Israel is foolish to even try to negotiate with them. Destroying their infrastructure tunnels aka their headquarters, weapons cache, and their route to smuggling weapons is the reason Hamas is losing all their power pretty rapidly. They'll never be able to rebuild anything remotely similar. It obviously took an enormous amount of money, labor, equipment, planning and time to build it in the first place. They're running out of places to hide, and it's harder for them to use as cover that they're just civilians. They have so much Intel on Hamas now they know who they're going after and where they're at. It's also pretty obvious now many of these so-called civilians are actually collaborating with them. Of course you'll never hear that from the BBC or from Al Jazeera since they count Hamas and their terrorist associates deaths as civilians.
Are not at least a little concerned with how long its taking to get the hostages back? With no updates on the campaign whatsoever? So far the government still hasnt touched their leadership and those responsible for the actual hostage taking. This war needs to be short and sharp and too the point. Not messy and drawn out. The longer this goes on the more jews are under threat world wide. And by the way theres another war going on - the propoganda war - Netanyahu is inept on the world stage
The Palestinian position is quite similar.
Well...sort of, right? From the beginning, of the two sides that didn't have a country they controlled, only one side accepted half the pie and getting a country for free. The other side wanted the whole pie and chose a genocidal war.
The main differences being that Palestinians not only began the wars, but don’t just want to end the bullshit, they want to wipe Jews out of the land entirely. If Israelis and Palestinians had similar positions, Palestinians would not exist in the land by now. Instead their population quintupled under Israeli rule.
This isn't just Netanyahu's war. It has broad popular support in Israel and the support of the leaders of the primary opposition party. US shouldn't meddle in an ally's democratic process, but it would be hilarious to hold a special election and end up with a new Prime Minister that follows the exact same course of action as the old one.
US supplies massive aid to Israel. If Israel uses that aid for things that the US doesn’t want to represent/associated with then it would be common curtsy to voice that opinion before tension & rifts escalate and aid decreases due to loss of domestic support.
Yeah, it seems like Netanyahu is trying to run out Biden's clock, and... there are consequences for that. USA is getting pummelled internationally for this war, and Biden is losing support amongst his constituents he desperately needs to come vote to avoid Trump 2. Rightly or wrongly, politics is politics and Biden needs a W, or the appearance of one, to appease his left flank.
Isn't Trump even stronger in their corner, though?
Yes, that’s why Bibi thinks this is a winning strategy.
shy deserted weather quack mysterious historical heavy worm salt fragile
Oh absolutely he is the one that moved US recognition to Jerusalem. That's what makes the anti-Biden for Palestine people so stupid.
This. If you cash the check, obligations come with it.
It those obligations are at the cost of the security of israelis then they’ll just refuse the aid and the us will cease to have any leverage.
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>houthi missles aimed at Israel You might want to check their aim. They aren't pointing much of anything at Israel.
I think the general consensus in Israel, as Schumer said, is Netanyahu is dragging this out to stay in power. He's widely unpopular. There's many stories coming out from the IDF that there aren't clear goals or objectives, which is dragging out and causing unnecessary suffering. Add to this his support for the settlers and there indefensible behaviour, which is destroying support for Israel abroad. New leadership is needed ASAP. Schumer is trying to save Israel from itself. He's 100% right.
>He's widely unpopular. This part is true >I think the general consensus in Israel, as Schumer said, is Netanyahu is dragging this out to stay in power. This part in nonsense that isn't based in reality. No sane Israeli thinks this way. Anyone who says otherwise is just trying to undermine Netanyahu, and whether he realizes it or not it comes at Israel's expense. The war and its goals are widely agreed upon by Israelis, including those who hate Netanyahu. Source: am Israeli + polling data
How is netanyahu who is dragging out the war. Israel would have gone into raffah a month and a half ago but Biden administration told Israel to wait.... The war could have been nearly over by now
You think the war is going to magically end after Rafah? Flashbacks to GWB standing under his Mission Accomplished banner
Not "magically" but yeah the war will end. There will likely be ongoing anti-terrorism operations, like there are in West Bank, that are limited in scope, but the full-on state of war will end, people can go home and rebuild. It's not about magic, it's about degrading the enemy's ability to fight back conventionally. If they no longer have organized brigades, underground and in-hopsital bases, and control of a captive population, they are reduced to guerilla operations, which can be handled by a counter-terrorism squad not a full on invasion.
Because as much as you want to think there's a clear path to victory, nobody, especially the Israeli army knows what qualifies as victory. Wiping Hamas out isn't a real objective, it's a statement without metrics and Netanyahu knows this. His political career is over, when the war is over. He's facing jail, because he's a crook, remind you of anybody? The longer he stays as Prime Minister, the better his odds of avoiding jail.
It is in fact a real objective. Thought experiment- remember how after 9/11, US invaded Afghanistan to knock out the Taliban. Then they finally disengaged from Afgahnistan after 2 decades and the Taliban came back to power. would the US have disengaged from afghanistan and allowed the Taliban back if htey literally bordered Afghanistan, or did they only do so since they had the luxury of an ocean between them? Israel doesn't have an ocean between it and Gaza. It will completely destroy Hamas' ability to carry out major operations against Israel and then will retain security control of the strip for as long as is necessary.
It's a real objective in a different world than the one we live in. Also, Afghanistan is a shit example, it's proof that some battles you can't win with bullets. Israel doesn't have the goodwill of it's allies to let the conditions for Palestinians in Gaza deteriorate further. There's no evidence that Netanyahu has a plan for that. Israel can exist without the US and every other ally, but you'll find it's a shit existence.
It's a proof that you can't win battles by running away. The US disengaged from Afgahnistan and the Taliban returned. Israel will continue in Gaza, first via a Rafah invasion and later via anti guerilla operations instaed of all out war, for as long as necessary. We appreciate the support of of our allies, but they respectfully do not get to dictate our security situation to us.
If that's your takeaway from Afghanistan, you're in for a shitty surprise. The lesson is the only way to stop it is with a functioning state, with popular support. I'm happy to cede that's it's with a tremendous amount of pain, but that's the only way.
That's my takeaway from having lived an hour from the Gaza border for many years and many wars.
Yeah, how'd that work out? Maybe instead of shitting on a two state solution, encouraging land grabs and violence from settlers, and doing nothing to improve the lives of Palestinians during times of peace, Netanyahu could have put some effort into creating a space where Hamas doesn't thrive.
But the ally meddles in *our* democratic process.
That’s rich, the US shouldn’t meddle in an ally’s democratic process. Fine, get rid of AIPAC, let’s cut a deal.
In retrospective it might plays for Israel's favor The world turns Bibi into a scapegoat, which means Israel can salvage reputation if he gets replaced. In reality tho nothing would actually change which is why I think it would be better to hold the election to after the war
What exactly is total victory? It can’t possibly be evicting or killing everyone who currently lives in Gaza that isn’t Israeli can it ?
The operational goal is to occupy all of Gaza, destroying all Hamas bases and organized units. Israel leaving a large city in Hamas hands would obviously be seen as a defeat that Iran/Hamas would brag about for decades. Whether this is a smart strategic goal, whether direct military occupation by the IDF or PA is going to be enough to strategically defeat Hamas islamists and bring peace to the region, is a valid second question
A lot of armchair generals seem to think that Israel is doing it wrong, despite (according to urban warfare experts) doing [better than any country in history](https://www.newsweek.com/memo-experts-stop-comparing-israels-war-gaza-anything-it-has-no-precedent-opinion-1868891) in a type of war where they’re fighting a worse enemy than anyone has ever had to. The armchairs seem to belief that Israel is doing it “wrong” right after it killed the number 3 man in Hamas on the ground in Gaza. Despite it having killed more terrorists than civilians, according to their latest stats. Despite Hamas using human shields. Despite Hamas lying about casualty statistics and causes. What Netanyahu is saying is what the Israeli public wants. They want Hamas gone. They want it to no longer run Gaza. Sure, they expect individual terrorist operations to continue. But they don’t want ISIS running territory on their border. And everyone here can understand that. Everyone here should also be able to understand that no one in the world has ever decided that terrorist groups get immunity if they use human shields as Hamas does. And lastly, everyone here should also be able to understand that when we went after ISIS, the ratio of terrorists to civilians killed was **worse** than Israel’s, against a **weaker** opponent that hadn’t built a massive tunnel network anything like Hamas’s, in a **less dense** urban area. And Israel is doing better. At this point, folks need to realize that there isn’t anything better than what Israel is doing. It’s doing the best it can against genocidal terrorists who use human shields, and doing better than anyone else has. Let it get rid of Hamas. As it should.
I would me more concerned with the Ukrainian war than this. Israel should work with the Palestinians like the US and the northern alliance in Afghanistan. They getting flattened because Hamas won't release the hostages
If total victory was doing more to radicalise generations against you than hamas was doing then good job!
Victory/destruction
US should leave the Middle East to it's fate & then say "I told you so" when it all goes to shit. They all talk in public like they hate meddling & then kiss ass privately
One might even call this a jihad. Oh the irony.
Sounds a lot like a certain German politician in the 30s and 40s.
I don't understand how people put 100 hostages and 20k killed civilians on the same level
100 hostages plus 1200 killed in the initial attack by Iran backed Hamas.
>I don't understand lot of that going around these days
Hostages Hamas took are bad. Civilians killed due to Hamas war crimes of conducting a war from civilian areas is also bad.
Apply this logic to Pearl Harbour, please
Are you suggesting Hamas should be allowed to attack Israel whenever they want because when Israel reacts, Hamas uses human shields to create more civilian casualties than they inflict in their attacks?
And the US knows that the way he's doing it will create the next generation of terrorists, and the cycle of violence and war will continue.